(00:00:00) Well what the average car now costing about $20,000 or more. It's probably more important than ever that people know what they're buying when they go in the showroom. And that's where today's guest comes in. Jack Gillis is out with his 15th annual edition of the car book in the fifth annual edition of the truck van and 4x4 book. Both handy guides that raid all the 1995 models of cars and trucks on a wide variety of factors safety maintenance warranties fuel economy even include some tips on actually buying a new vehicle. Jack Gillis is the director of public affairs with consumer Federation of America. He is a consumer correspondent for NBC's Today Show and has been good enough to stop by our Studios to take your questions on new cars and trucks how they Stack Up. Mr. Gillis. Glad you could come by again this year believe me. It's my pleasure always instructive always instructive price of new cars and trucks is certainly going up is the value increasing as well. Well, actually it is as you know, I've been a long time. Critic of the car industry and I think one of the things that we've seen is a dramatic Improvement in the overall quality of all cars their reliability as well as their safety. I'm not necessarily sure that the corresponding increase in price warrants is warranted. In fact, I'm very concerned about that because what happened was last year 1994 was a very good year for the car companies. They sold an awful lot of cars. The reason is because we hadn't bought cars in a while. We were kind of edging our way back into the marketplace and what did they do to reward us for that great Customer Loyalty, but increased 95 prices quite dramatically in some cases. For example, the Lincoln Continental went up a whopping 20% So it's almost like they don't quite get it yet. I mean we're willing to buy cars. We'd like to pay far fair prices for them. We were tiptoeing back into the marketplace and they raised all the prizes but the cars today are quite good. So that's the Nose now the auto makers at least some of them are saying that much of the reason they've had to increase increase prices because of all the new safety features that people like yourself have been pushing Lo these many years any truth to that. There's no question that any time you change a car. It's going to add to the cost the most popular safety feature today the airbag for example may add fifty dollars to the price of the car only 50 only 50 and that's because it's now available in widespread basis five six seven years ago when Chrysler started installing them on some of their cars and Mercedes the per-unit cost was about two to three thousand dollars. Well, of course, it was high because they weren't commonly available and now with mass production and putting them in a mass-produced basis the very very inexpensive and it'll anti-lock brakes is another feature that is so relatively inexpensive when you put it on a mass production basis, and I think the bottom line is that fifty dollars that they are spending and Increasing the cost of the car by is not really what we're concerned about manufacturers have finally realized that we're willing to pay premiums for safety safety is probably the number one factor the consumers consider today when buying a car and it's a term that was absolutely unheard of for years ago in advertising and now you don't hear an ad for car without the mention of the word safety. So I don't feel sorry for the manufacturers because in effect, we've created Marketplace Niche those manufacturers who do well in the car book who do well in the crash test who have dual airbags. We have any lock brakes now have a marketing tool in which to create an increase market share for themselves. Whereas they didn't have that before we force them to put those things into the car. No, I know you've rated all of the vehicles on an individual basis, but I do have to ask user one manufacturer that kind of stands out this year across the board is coming up with some particularly good vehicles. Well, I think if I had to pick one. On and I haven't really thought this through that carefully, but if I had to pick one, it would probably would be Ford not only have they done very well in terms of the crash test, but they've done a relatively consistent job of keeping maintenance costs down and they are the only manufacturer with an entry into our overall best in every single size category. It's a company that's a lot smaller than General Motors. They've been able to respond more quickly to these changing Marketplace than General Motors probably a little bit behind Chrysler in terms of safety Innovations, but in terms of the other characteristics reliability quality, they probably edged ahead of Chrysler. So I think of the domestic car makers Ford is probably the best first callers were many apples John. Go (00:04:44) ahead. Yeah. I've been looking at small cars and I like the Chrysler neon, but I don't have any I wasn't able to find any information from Consumer Reports on the reliability and Our ability of that model and I wonder if you have any information on that (00:05:06) Chrysler neon is extraordinarily popular in terms of our ratings. It did not do as well in the crash test as its as its competition fact, we rated as a poor even though it does have dual airbags. It's got weak side impact protection pretty good fuel economy good repair rating warranty is not so good. So as a result that didn't come out on the top of our list in that class of cars. I'll tell you the cars that did do very well the Saturn SL the Ford Aspire the Ford Escort in the Mercury Tracer, all of these cars did well in the crash test low repair costs and and reasonable Insurance ratings. All right back to the phone. So wreck your question, please. (00:05:46) Yeah, we have a 1987 Chevy Astro van what conversion van which is just wonderfully. It's got a hundred twenty thousand miles away. So we're starting to look for another week. Like another conversion van we tending towards another Astro but we've noticed in searching for this that there doesn't seem to be any price differential between the full-size bands and Astro van out there run all about in the same price range. I will we will kind of amazed by that as we looked around. I was wondering if you had any comments on (00:06:20) this. Well, I think that's an interesting observation. The reason behind that is because full-size van still for the most part are sold as commercial vehicles and that's a price elasticity. There is far less sort of a more competitive market. Whereas the Astro is in what we call the minivan category, which is a hot category right now and the manufacturers are able to charge higher prices for those Vehicles. There is Big differences between the two in terms of size and handling but in terms of the minivans if you're looking for a minivan the Astro was not one of our top choices this year what I would recommend that you take Look at is the Ford Windstar Dodge Caravan and Plymouth Voyager. The minivans are not held to the same safe. Safety standards as regular cars. Are they well, a that has always been true and this year it is finally changing that's with the 1995 models for years many Vans light trucks and four by fours didn't have to meet the same Federal safety standards as Passenger cars do which was outrageous. When you think of the fact that the sport utilities are so popular with consumers and of course minivans are really really the car of choice for people with families. We've fought very hard to get that law changed its now being phased in so now in the future from here on in you're going to get the same protection they are safe to use at this point. Yes, they are. Okay, Paul your question calling for (00:07:53) Maura. Yes. What can you say about the 95 Geo Metro. The mileage is gone down. The price has gone. (00:07:59) Yup, sounds like a loser to me. No crash tests on the Geo Metro. So I you know and again, you know, I'm going to be talking to college throughout the day and you'll get a sense of my bias. My bias happens to be safety. And when there is no crash tests available. That is the government hasn't gotten around to testing this car. You know, it's kind of a it's a crapshoot. I'm not sure that I would recommend that you buy a car. It did have dual airbags and it did have struck side impact protection which is good for a small car while the fuel economy has gone down a bit. It is still a leader in terms of fuel efficiency in that size class. It's repair rating and warranties are very poor and it gets a surcharge on its insurance. So even if it had crash test results, I suspect that it wouldn't have made it into our top list. Now, how do cars end up either with a surcharge in terms of insurance or reduced rates? What how do they calculate that? Well one of the things that the insurance companies have been doing for a number of years now is raiding the cars based on their accident history and there are three major factors that go into whether You pay more or less to ensure the car that you're interested in one is its cost to repair that car after an accident to the likelihood of that car of being in an accident and three it's theft rating now the likelihood of that car being in an accident. It's important to discuss this just for a moment. For example, the Chevy Camaro probably is in more accidents than any other car on the road not because it's inherently unsafe but because it tends to be driven by 18 to 24 year old males who don't have great driving records. And if you are a 35 year old female for example, and that happens to be one of the population groups with the best driving records and you go out and buy a Camaro you'll be buying a relatively safe card has dual airbags at good crash test results, but you'll pay a premium because of the typical driver you'll pay an awful lot to ensure that car. There are big differences in the insurance costs of relatively similar cars the Dodge Neon. On for example doesn't get a surcharge on its insurance. But the Eagle Summit very similar designed car does so knowing this before you buy and we put this in the car book will save you an awful lot of money down the road and do do insurance rates vary a lot from one company to another yes, there's two there's two places they vary they vary from car to car and they vary from insurance company to insurance company. So it definitely pays to shop around both for the insurance company and the car and there's one third complicating phenomenon One Insurance Company may offer a discount on the car and another insurance company may offer a search Arch. So buying Insurance, isn't that easy? But it all it really involves is when you've narrowed your choice down to one or two cars call your insurance company and at least one other insurance company and ask them what they're going to charge you to ensure that car for the next year run your question for Jack Alice, (00:10:56) please yes. Mr. Gillis. I have a Pet peeve since about the mid 80s cars used to have gas filler pipes either in the center back or on the driver's side on the left hand side of the vehicle since then it seems like they they they go either way. No not only by manufacturer, but even from one model for a particular model from one year to the next and I'd like to know why is it that the automobile manufacturers design in apparently deliberately a real hassle Factor you go to the gas pumps you supposed to drive up on the right hand side of the pumps and then you get out and there's the gas filler pipe where it should be so that you can fill the car conveniently and you in a few responsible for filling two or three cars in the family. You don't have to remember when you go to the filler pumps that which side of the the car the gas drilling pipe happens to be on on that particular vehicle. In addition. There's there's a real problem when you have People coming into a gas station some are driving in on the left hand side or what is to them the left hand side because of they've got the gas filler pipe on the right hand side and others are coming out, of course on the right hand side of the pumps. And so you get this nose to nose confrontation that I've encountered a few times at gas stations and although I'm not speaking for myself. But one of these days you're going to read about somebody taking a gun out of the glove compartment and settling it that way (00:12:29) Ron's got a pretty unreasonable request far as I can tell it's II it's it always amazes me. I never do this program without learning about a new issue from one of the listeners and that is an issue that I personally have been unaware of but if in fact it's true, I think it's just evidence of this consumer in sensitivity that we constantly struggle with in terms of Manufacturers. I'm going to look into this now and try to see how many cars have because it's Very reasonable request why shouldn't it be on consistent side? We're certainly not going to get any regulations passed in this environment to force the manufacturers to do that. So by voicing your concern to the car company directly, I think we'll get some changes but this is an example of you know, women for example often have major problems with the design of vehicles because Vehicles tend to be designed for the 95th percentile male and they have their problems in seat Comfort. They have their problems and safety belt where the safety belt comes across the body and a couple of other factors like that where it's clear that the manufacturer hasn't really thought through some of their customer needs and this caller is telling me about a new one which will have to look into we'll put it in the ratings of next year which side the which side the gas tank filler is on and you can make your decision based on that. Well, let's hope that they get it all squared away on one side before the shootout occurs that they'd be starting about John your question for mr. Gillis (00:13:58) wondering about a buying Strategy, once I finally picked the vehicle and all of the options that I want. I wonder if it would make sense to write a letter to say half a dozen dealers asking for the best price or would they not even respond? I'll hang up and listen on the radio. Thank (00:14:14) you. Well, I'm glad you asked that question because you're really onto the correct strategy in the correct strategy is to get a half a dozen. If you have the time dealers to bid against each other. We think we can go into a dealership and negotiate a good price one-on-one. You know, we might think we're really good negotiators or whatever, but the only incentive a dealer has to give you a good price is the loss of your sail and the only way he or she will perceive that is if they know you are going to two or three other dealers. So your intuitive strategy is absolutely correct. I suspect they wouldn't even respond to a letter and even if they even a phone call is very difficult to get them to respond to accurately because sometimes I'll tell you one. I said over the phone that when you get into get that prize. Oh, yeah, I forgot to tell you there's an extra charge that you know, I am so sorry I go talk to this. Am I my fault my fault, but listen, you're here. Let's talk. So so what you've got to do is just be tough and remember that you have the most important to cool tool in a negotiation. It's what I call the 180 degree turn always be prepared to walk away from a deal. If you're not being treated with respect if you're given the silent treatment if you're not getting information quickly, so go in there say I've narrowed my choices down. I want this red Ford Escort with air conditioning and moonroof and such and such a stereo and I'm going to buy it today from the cheapest dealer. And first thing they're going to say to you is well, what other prices have you gotten is that I'm sorry. I don't want to waste your time. I don't want don't want to take any more of your time that I have to I just want you to give me the very best price knowing that I am going to for people today and getting the best price. I'm going to buy the car from that person. Chances are they will enable they will give you the best price one of those people. He's going to want your sale enough to give you a good price and that'll give you a good barometer. What you should be paying for the car. Does it make any sense to use one of these buying Services? The only one that we found let me backtrack. There are two types of buying Services one is associated with your credit union, maybe your company. Maybe you're a member of AAA where they will get you access to dealers lots and purchase anything on the lot for say a hundred dollars over cost. That's not a bad way to go. I highly recommend it. It's simple its straightforward. You don't have to pay anything for it and it really cuts out a lot of hassle in negotiation. We have found however that this so-called dealer cost is become a bogus number that there are so many Kickbacks and and so many consumers know how to find dealer cost that the manufacturers have other creative ways to return money to the dealers. So there's a one service that we do recommend. And in talked about in the car book, it's called car Bargains and it's run by a non-profit consumer group. And what they do is similar to what I just told the caller about is they will contact five or six dealers in your area and get those dealers to bid against themselves and they charge a hundred and thirty-five dollars for this service. So the question is, why would you pay $135 if you can get the car for $100 over deal cost in 35 percent of the cases they've been able to get people prices 30 that are less than dealer cost so you can actually sit and the reason why they do it is because the dealer gets this faxed information in they know they have a bona fide Customer because you paid $135 for the service. They also know their bidding against five dealers in their area. They all know what they paid for the car. So they have this incentive to get back to you and they'll respond within 24 hours with a with a price you'll get all the prices and just make your choice so that really cuts out a lot of Hassle and and again, we really don't ever endure. Anything in the car book, we don't endorse any books or magazines or anything. But this is a service run by a non-profit group that we've found to be particularly good how have these no-hassle fixed price sales approaches work good and bad. How's that for an answer interesting enough Saturn the the dealership that has sort of innovated. This concept has recently released the fact that it has one of the highest consumer ratings of any of the automobile dealers and I'm convinced it's because people just hate negotiating so much that they're giving these dealers high ratings just because the process is a lot less painful the downside is because not all dealers and manufacturers participate. There is a likelihood that you probably pay more than you should at a no-hassle dealership. So we're we hope that more and more dealers will pick up this concept and buying a car will be like buying Refrigerator or a TV where you go into a store and you look at the various models that you don't negotiate price and you make an informed decision based on the features of the refrigerator and the reputation of the manufacturer and whatever you've read about the quality of the product and just purchase it based on that that would take an awful lot of anxiety out of this purchase for us and probably have us with a lot better attitude towards car companies in general. Now, you said sometimes you end up paying more. Is it a little bit say $100 or $1,000 more or what? Well, I'll give you a specific example. The dealer markup on a Saturn for example is around 17, excuse me around 12% and they don't negotiate that so you're paying that additional twelve percent profit when you go out and buy a Saturn comparable cars, they a Ford Escort of Mercury Tracer where you do negotiate the price, you'll probably be paying far less in terms of the percent of dealer markup. And you know, the question is, you know, you may be paying $11,000 for the Ford Escort and $12,000 for the Saturn Saturn is got 10% markup and in the escorts got two percent markup in it. So if Saturn negotiated you might have been able to reduce that price you are paying although what we find is that most consumers are so relieved. I don't have to negotiate the price that they don't care. They may not be getting the rock bottom dollar amount. They could or paying the rock bottom dollar amount that they could Be Our Guest today is Jack Ellis the author of the car book rating the 1995 cars and trucks and minivans now all of our phone lines are full. But let me give you the number. You might want to jot it down and then give us a call here in five minutes or so is some of the lines clear Twin City area number is 2276 thousand 2276 thousand outside the Twin Cities. The number toll-free is one eight hundred two, four two 2828 John. The line from Minnetonka with a question. Go ahead. (00:21:01) Hi kids a couple of quick questions the Dodge Intrepid the Eagle Vision and the similar platform cars from Chrysler came out with a lot of accolades that it's like feature or Rama performance of ram has a so go but no like Consumer Reports, which used to have it on its recommended list has taken it off because problems and reliability and curious to know what you have to say or what your experience is with those particular car (00:21:30) models. Well, I think it's a perfect example of a vehicle that had experienced a lot of problems during its first model year production we to in our evaluation of the complaints the 250,000 complaints on file with the US Department of Transportation have determined that during the first couple years there were significant consumer complaints about these vehicles. Well, it's not among our top choices in the intermediate class. We do rate them very highly this year because Work the bugs out of the process and we think in general they are they're very good buys your second question John (00:22:05) second question is I'm hopefully confirming that my recent purchase of a Subaru svx was a good decision. What you think about that car (00:22:13) Subaru svx? Let's just see how we rated that particular vehicle didn't rate that car. So I can't help you. Sorry about that. Give us a call in a few months and rated yourself Sean your question, please. (00:22:29) Yes, my family were considering buying a four-wheel drive vehicle some sort of very soon and I'm sure it's going to be a car or a van or a pickup or what but wonder if I could talk about some of the different kinds of actual Drive trains themselves, and I know there's locking hubs this couplings Etc. I know they have different benefits and detractors and different costs and I don't know much about if you could perhaps summarize a little bit. I'll hang up and listen. (00:22:54) Well, I know in this particular area of the country. I'm going to be considered a heretic but Don't recommend four-wheel drive at all, huh? It's extraordinarily complex. It adds dramatically to the cost of purchasing the vehicle repair costs to the Transmissions because of their complexity are very expensive down the road and the bottom line is with front-wheel drive and the driving that 99% of us. Do you really don't need it for extra traction? And I know there's a lot of people out there who know their lives have been saved because they were able to flip on their four-wheel drive and get out of a muddy area or get through the snow or whatever but for the rank-and-file consumer for the for the rest of us out there. You really don't need it. If you must buy it then and you want to spend all this extra money and you want to absorb the extra repair costs down the road the simpler the better and my recommendation is to buy system, which is automatic all wheel drive automatic systems, then they only come in To play when you really need them and they aren't necessarily something that's you know, switch using the switch on and off that you use and you forget to use your forget. It's on or whatever the more automated the system the more the less likely you are going to have problems with it yourself. Is there any difference between all wheel drive and four wheel drive or as are those just marketing names as well? I think that the best way to describe the difference is that and and again they are marketing terms because one manufacturer may call something that's old fashioned four-wheel all wheel drive, but one of the differences you'll find is a traction system that really removes the power to the wheel when it senses that wheel is spinning so it doesn't start to spin, you know in the mud or in the snow, whatever traction sensing devices and that's that's a significant factor. And if you are going to get all wheel drive get one with one of these traction sensing devices that will either apply the power or take the power away as needed. (00:24:59) Next caller is from Cannon (00:25:00) Falls Margaret. Go ahead. (00:25:02) Thank you. Mr. Gillis. I have two comments. And then a question. My first comment is that cars are not made to be responsive to people of different heights either. I sometimes they make the seat belts fall on the same place on a body whether you're six feet or 5 feet or whatever you are and that seat belt hits some people right at the neck which seems to me to be very dangerous. And secondly they are they appear to not be making at least the older cars in a way that makes it easier for our aging population, especially those who have trouble with their back or we have arthritis or something else and they make the trunks on many of the cars with those Ledges and you have to lift up and over and things are hard to pull and hard to move if people have arthritis or some other disability. My question is do you know since the population is aging and there's more of us aging are there any is there any move on the part of the manufacturer to answer these needs in these concerns out there? (00:26:14) No, that's simple answer and it's really again, we talked earlier about sensitivity to the consumer. I know of no movement in this direction. Let's face it. These are these are companies who are just now realizing just now realizing that women buy cars period women by cars. And in fact for years, the survey research has indicated that as many as 80% of the new Court decisions were made by women yet car companies would suddenly just starting to realize that women buy cars. So I don't hold out any hope for sensitivity to what you're identifying is a very legitimate problem. What I would say, however, is that the biggest mistake that most of us make is not taking a good long test drive and by In a good long test drive, you will uncover these quirky problems with the vehicles before you buy and I'd say take it out on the highway sit in the backseat get in and out of the front of the car a couple of times parallel park the car take it in and out of your driveway. Do all the things you normally do with the car to see if there are any quirky aspects of this car which because of your particular situation. Don't you let you you could have problems with down the road the second quick thing. I'll say about safety belts you are right again, I'd said earlier designed for the 95th percentile male. You didn't you didn't sound like that to me. And in fact, most people aren't 95th percentile males who are driving cars these days. So one of the things that car makers have done is develop safety belts with adjustable positions. And as you reach up behind you in the safety belt where it connects to the top of the car and comes down over your shoulder look for safety belt that has an adjustable device there that allows you to All that safety belt up or down and that will partially compensate for difference in the heights of people. If you have if you're riding or driving in a car that doesn't allow you to adjust it. Is it better to take it off and have it wrap around your throat? Absolutely not absolutely not don't ever not use your safety belt as uncomfortable as amazing as much as possible position it as squarely across your chest and as low on your pelvic area and in your hips as possible, that's the key. You don't want the lap part up around your stomach. You want it on your hip bones and your pelvic area and you want the belt to come across straight across so some belts enable you to pull it out a little bit and it'll catch and it will drape across your front and that's better than not wearing a safety belt. Mike's on the line from Edina with our next question for Jack Gillis. Go ahead, please. (00:29:00) Ford Explorer or a new blazer and new 95 models. What? Can you tell me about those Ellis enough dear? (00:29:08) Okay. Again, my bias is is is safety in terms of crash tests, very few crash tests of these vehicles are available. So we can't help you there. Some of them do have dual airbags. And I think that's extraordinarily important because the floor Dead Explorer has a dual air bag. It happens to be one of our top choices. It also has four-wheel anti-lock brakes many of these vehicles only have two wheel anti-lock brakes, which is really almost worthless. Also, remember that these types of vehicles by their nature tend to have higher rollover ratings than cars do that's simply because of the way they're building it higher centers of gravity. So you want to kind of buy a vehicle in this class knowing that it's more likely to roll over and you have to you should drive accordingly, but without the crash test results the Ford Explorer probably would be our Top Choice Walt your question for Jack Ellis, (00:30:05) please well, it'll last the longest before wearing out and has the easiest maintenance a Mercury Cougar XR7 with a 4.6 liter V8 or a Saturn what I mean by maintenance as I looked at these roadmasters last year Buick Roadmaster xand and Chevy Caprice with the 350 engines and the air injector reactor Plumbing that goes into the exhaust manifold was over some the spark plug so you couldn't get them out on a V12 Jaguar the fuel injection Plumbing is over the spark plugs a mechanic was telling me that you bust the porcelain off the spark plug and then go in there with like a open end or box wrench to get it out some like these V6 cars transverse V6 (00:30:59) which to Vehicles in do you want compared here the (00:31:01) Mercury the Mercury Cougar XR7 with the 4.6 liter V8 and the (00:31:09) Saturn. Okay. Well, you know, you've pointed out some very good reasons. Why what we do in the car book is so important. We evaluate not only the preventive maintenance costs. That's how much it's going to cost you to follow the manufacturers recommended schedule to 550 thousand miles, but the typical repairs that you're going to experience after that car warranty expires and many of the differences in these repairs are for the types of things that you alluded to Simply poor design. When you look at those two vehicles, you're going to find that the Saturn is going to be more expensive in terms of its preventative maintenance costs, but that the cougar will be and and more expensive but that the cougar will be slightly more expensive in terms of the repair costs of the typical items afterwards. So you've got a mix bag and all in all they're probably pretty close and you should use other Chariot to make your decision between those two vehicles then the maintenance costs Kathy. You're up next. I hi. (00:32:07) I'm currently drive an 86 Honda Civic with a 1.5 liter 4 cylinder engine, but I pull up pop-up trailer with it. Obviously not very well and I'm looking for a vehicle that would provide me with the power to pull a trailer, but I don't want a big old trucker a big old car. Do they make anything like that? I've been looking for vehicles and most of the ones I've looked at. They only come in four cylinder. (00:32:35) Well, one of the problems with trailer pulling is that the best types of vehicles generally speaking for trailer pulling a rear wheel drive vehicles and there are very few rear wheel drive vehicles left on the market anymore. So that's sort of an inherent problem that you're going to have what I would suggest being it sounds like you want to continue with a smaller type car. I would suggest either a Saturn or moving up to the little bit larger car the Subaru Legacy those two did well in all of our criteria and they come with engine configurations which will be which will be powerful enough to handle a pop up type trailer which isn't really that heavy on a regular basis art your question for Jack Ellis, (00:33:15) please yeah, I'm interested in the Dodge Avenger or the Dodge Stratus. I saw them at the auto shows and they're pretty cars and I'd want to know what mechanical information he has. Also, what's the risk of buying a car in its first model year (00:33:31) big risks in terms of buying a car during its first model year. We had a collar earlier talked about the Chrysler products that came out that now are highly rated the larger Chrysler vehicles. So I always suggest airing on the sense of not buying a car during its first model year. If you must wait for at least eight months or so of production and to do that, you need to find out when the car was made and that Avail that information is available on the car and you should ask the dealer when this particular car was made in terms of those two vehicles again, no crash test results, but they both have dual airbags. The stratus now is a larger car than the Avenger. So you're you're looking at cars with two different types of size classes as a result. You'll get a little contrary to what you may think. You'll get a little bit poorer fuel economy with a larger Stratus. They both have good ratings in terms. Of their repair ratings, but they both have poor warranties. So across the board. They're very very similar. No crash-test so I can't help you there, but they do have dual airbags. And what I do is I just go by price if those if that's where you've narrowed your choice down to Dan's on the line from La Crosse with our next question. Go ahead sir. (00:34:45) Hi there I was calling in today. I was just wondering if you've done any studies on the mechanical like reliability factors on import cars that are now made actually only in North America. I guess I'm looking specifically at a car that I bought which is a 93 Toyota Corolla and versus 82 curl at we used to have which the 82 was great mechanically never broke down and in a year that we've had this car. We've had just numerous problems with it. And I found out that that was made in Canada versus Japan. (00:35:27) Well, I think I think the problem is we have this image that anything out of Japan is really absolutely terrific and we have that image for good reason because for many years it was fantastic today. However, we have proven I think unkind Agora Klee that you can build Vehicles very well in North America. There's no inherent bias in the labor population of North America versus the Japanese what the problems in the past stem from management decisions and for years the corporate mentality in the United States especially was quantity over quality now, they are focusing on quality. So I don't think you'll see the types of differences in the cars today that you actually experience with that with those two cars that you talked about. I noticed a consumer reports the other day issued a report on used cars and of course a lot of people what especially since car new cars are so expensive or turning the used cars. Here are rated all I guess the top 10 were all Japanese models. Do you agree with that? I would tend to say if you if you force me to say something about Japanese versus domestic. I would say that the Japanese tend to be better build and therefore less expensive to repair more reliable. However, I will say that that doesn't necessarily mean that they are the best buys because with the Japanese used cars comes somewhat artificially high prices. For example, I'll give you two cars that have the worst resale ratings of the cars that we checked from 1988 the Lincoln Continental in the Ford LTD Crown Victoria Now by virtue of the fact that they have terrible resale rating. That means that you're going to be able to go out and buy one of these cars pretty cheaply they're very reliable cars. They just don't happen to have the cash a they're not as attractive to people so they aren't able to maintain that high resale value. But if you're looking for a good value their tremendous value, they're reliable well made and cheap so they wouldn't show Hop on a Consumers Union Consumer Reports list because there probably are quirky problems associated with those but if you have that mechanic check out the one you're looking at you can really save a lot of money Our Guest today is Jack Ellis, who is the author of the car book? Mr. Gillis is director of public affairs for the consumer Federation of America. He is (00:37:53) a consumer reporter for (00:37:54) NBC's Today Show 15th Edition of the car book is out and also course the fifth edition. Now the truck van and 4x4 book. He's been good enough to stop by today to take your questions about the 1995's Jeff. Go ahead, please (00:38:07) hi. I'm glad to have snuck in. I'm real interested in the Saturn because my wife and I are interested in a safe car and about the 10,000 to 12,000 dollar range and we were very close last night to purchasing one, but I want to hold off and get some more information specifically. I would rather have anti-lock brakes on this car then even air conditioning. I'm wondering if that is really worth a worthy trade and also the Saturn That of having metal on the sides actually has plastic. I'm wondering if that just hides the rust or if that actually prevents it. And another question is are there other cars in that range, you know, a hundred twelve five that are decent safe cars that handle as well as the Saturn and are of comparable quality and I'll hang up and (00:38:51) listen. Well, first of all, the handling aspect is something that's very personal and we actually don't rate handling. I think that's why I talked earlier about the importance of taking a good long test drive. That's something that you need to check out for yourself. I may believe that the BMW is a great handling car. But my mother behind the wheel of a BMW would feel extraordinarily uncomfortable quick point on any lock brakes. I strongly recommend anti-lock brakes the the evidence however is out that there doesn't appear to be big differences in the accident rates of cars with and without any lock brakes nevertheless. I strongly recommend it because it's technology that can do a not an awful lot for you in the event that Need to use it such as slamming on your brakes and the car skidding out of control and I lock brakes will allow you to maintain control that steering control that car and slow you down faster than if you were to keep your foot on the brake and the break were to keep the wheels locked up in terms of the the Saturn SL2. I think that's a very good choice. We just got the crash test results on it and they were very good for to Spire is another vehicle that you want to look at and the Ford Escort Mercury Tracer those a corporate twins little different styling features to each one the Mercury Tracer maybe a shade more expensive but have a little bit better handling characteristics than the Ford. So those are four choices. You also should look at the other question had to do with plastic the use of plastic is that to actually help fight rust or is it absolutely plastic Vehicles probably are the way of the future and not only does it, you know, obviously plastic doesn't rust the car is less susceptible to dents and dings. Because it's more resilient you walk up to, you know, take the worst case scenario you walk up to a metal car with a hammer and you have to hit the metal. You're going to Dent it you walk up with a plastic car and the plastic won't necessarily Dent. Now there is a downside to the plastic and that is that it's less recyclable. It's has a greater impact on the environment and hopefully people will will uncover ways in the future as more and more cars have these plastic body panels to deal with this when the cars life is over Randy your question for Jack Ellis, please (00:41:07) good afternoon. Oh, we're in the market for what seems to be a Dying Breed these days which is a midsize station wagon. We looked around we were looking for a certain level of quality of construction, which we found only in the Volvo 850 wagon and the Toyota Camry wagon, and we're struggling with out with a decision between the two vehicles like yourself and it's a pleasure to hear this purse. Active we value safety as a primary criteria. We have the impression that the Volvo is a slightly safer car. We're not convinced whether that's an objective per impression or just the function of a lot of advertisement over the years. We're also wondering whether the difference in safety is worth in this case. Probably somewhere between six and eight thousand dollars difference in price. So I'd be interested in your opinion, please. (00:42:00) Well, first of all the Volvo 850 in my opinion is a safer car than 202 Camry the Toyota Camry is by no means an unsafe car. However, but you will be buying additional safety by buying an 850. So that's let me put that issue to rest. One of the trade-offs you'll be making in terms of buying a Volvo is somewhat more expensive repair costs down the road. This is a trade-off that I personally was willing to make myself in a purchase of car for our family and it's too bad that you have to make this purchase in terms of The the prices I would suggest that you do. You know what we talked about earlier in the show and you get the Volvo dealers in this area to start competing against each other. It's a little bit more difficult to do because there are more limited supplies of Volvo's and there is a big domestically produced cars. But in in my opinion, we raided the Volvo 850 as one of our very top choices this year and I think that's that's the way to go one last Quick point. I would there's also big size differences to in terms of the internal size between those two vehicles. I would take a look at the Ford Taurus Wagon again did very well in the crash test dual airbags, very different style than the Volvo 850 and it should have lower repair costs down the road. So that's a third consideration. You may want to make so you have to ask you brought up the Taurus Wagon and its twin would be the Sable wagon now somewhere I was reading I think that they have different. Even though they're twins one is got a tan one is a nine now. How can that be if they're the same car? Yeah, that's that that drives drives our researchers crazy. The reason is it could have been something like the insurance rating. For example, we talked earlier about how they the person who typically drives a particular car on average will infer will affect that cars Insurance rating and that's where we see some of the differences the Mercury Sable driver if you will maybe a more conservative driver. So therefore you get a little bit break on your insurance. We've also detected in some cases that they were some differences in terms of fuel efficiency because one came with a different type of engine but but you're right there are a couple of cases where they have one or two point differences in our ratings. And after I tell everybody that the cars are identical then they see them rate of differently in our book. It's always confusing but there are very close next caller is from aggregor. Go ahead Roy. (00:44:34) Um, basically, uh a commercial driver but in that I drive over 50,000 miles a year, but I don't need a large vehicle. I've noticed the larger commercial vehicles are almost all trucks and like diesels are propane. I have a currently a four-cylinder diesel Ford Escort, but I've been trying to replace it with something that would have similar characteristics. And of course, I haven't seen any four-cylinder diesel for about two years now. Is there what would you recommend that to meet the the the economy the reliability of the longevity of such a vehicle? (00:45:12) Unfortunately, nothing as you're discovering as you search around there are virtually no small diesels available. Very very few. Diesel engines are available these days and I think you're I think you're probably going to have to if it's time to buy a new car. I think you're going to have to bite the bullet and go with a gasoline-powered engine Rich your question for Jack Ellis, please (00:45:32) yeah, I just recently purchased. Just stayed minivan Chrysler and like it very much. The hardest issue is trying to figure out leasing paying cash or taking out a loan on this and it gets confusing there's rebates thrown in and so I suppose the issue is what on how to finance the swimming one had all three options available to them here could be there pay cash least the car or take a Lon. (00:45:55) Well, the cheapest way of course is to pay cash and get two benefits there. It's a quick transaction the dealer gets all their money up front. So they may have a tendency to give you a little bit more of a cut on the price leasing is always going to cost you more than either buying the car outright or buying it on time. And the reason is because of the end of that lease period you've got nothing but potential sticker shock and when I say potential sticker shock, I'm talking about the hundreds and hundreds of consumers. Now who are turning in these leases who are suddenly getting stocked with 500 1000 Dollar charges because the stains are all over the seats or the cars are all dented and nicked up and things. Normally happen you have all the headaches and responsibilities when you lease a car with none of the benefits. So that's my third and Last Choice buying a car over time is really where most of us are because most of us don't have the average $20,000 to plunk down on a car and they're the key is go in and buy the cars if you were going to pay cash don't talk financing with the dealer at all and shop around for your financing and get that somewhere else from your credit union your bank and it's very competitive market right now. So you can generally do quite well with one exception and that is these manufacturers subsidized Finance rates. For example, there's a financing right available now on Honda's with 2.9 financing no bank is going to match that. Just make sure though that you negotiate the best price for that Honda before you talk financing Patrick your question, (00:47:23) please hi. I've always liked the Honda Civic wagon, but I understand that they don't make those anymore. I was wondering if you could advise me on a car 95 that's like that. (00:47:33) Let's see really there isn't that's that was a kind of a unique vehicle. It was the one of the smallest little wagons around and I don't there there really isn't a good substitute. I'm sorry about that. Next question is (00:47:49) let's see Bob. Yes. Go ahead. Yes, I've got a kind of I guess it's a safety concern was things have always been curious about is why do automobile manufacturers make speedometers that read such a high, you know mile per hour rate and we're only supposed to drive the speed limit, which usually you know, doesn't exceed 55 miles an hour. Okay (00:48:11) don't have a clue as to a good answer for that one. I've often wondered that myself and I guess the fact of the matter is many car buyers obviously exceed the speed limits and more and more consumers are becoming less fuel-efficient conscious. They're driving cars faster and they're looking for more powerful cars so that clearly catering to At end of the market we've got time for at least one more caller Steve. Go (00:48:37) ahead. I have a question on two separate vehicles one like to know what your impression is of the Toyota Supra as opposed to in 87 when they originally change the body style if there's been any changes and also if there was what the best value for a sport utility vehicle would be I'll hang up and wasn't (00:48:57) thinking well, I can't give you any intelligent information on the Toyota Supra because we did not rate that car specifically it's a it's a relatively low low selling high performance vehicle in terms of the best sport utility vehicles as we mentioned earlier. We have the truck van and 4x4 book. And in terms of the Ford Bronco was our top rated vehicle. However, the Ford Explorer also has relatively good crash-test not quite as good as the Ford Bronco the now Infamous Ford, Bronco, okay, very briefly Hirsch. I guess you get the last question. Go (00:49:34) ahead. Thank you. First of all, I'd like to say how much I appreciate the safety pin in this my question has to do with how you factor in size. The safety for example, we've always we've come from the belief that large truck like Suburbans are safer than cars just from their masks. Could you just comment on that? (00:49:54) Sure very quickly science is still a relatively important factor in a vehicle's safety, but the only way to really consider it as if you have two cars it's a do equally well in the crash test ones big ones little the bigger one is likely to be a little bit better for you, but don't let sighs mislead you for example some of those early big heavy Chevy Suburbans did very poorly in the crash test because they were so extraordinary rigid. They didn't collapse on impact and what is more important than size is the ability of that vehicle to manage the crash forces rather than transfer them back to you the occupant you want that vehicle to collapse like an accordion which is going to mean it's totaled or almost impossible to repair after an accident. But that's a prize most of us are willing to pay because that vehicle then gets destroyed rather than you. So size isn't a perfect barometer if the car for example doesn't do well in a crash test. Thank you, sir for coming in. Really? Appreciate it our guest today Jack Gillis, who is the author of the car book a new edition out as well as the truck van and 4x4 book. Mr. Gillis is the director of public affairs with the consumer Federation of America is also (00:51:06) a consumer correspondent for NBC's today programme.