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GARY EICHTEN: Well, needless to say, this has been a tough year for local baseball fans, at least, Major League Baseball fans. The Twins, as we know, have been struggling all year. There really is no light at the end of that tunnel. But there has been one encouraging development, the birth of the Northern League, and the return of outdoor Minor League Baseball to the region.

The League has six teams, St. Paul, Duluth, Rochester, Sioux Falls, Sioux City, and Thunder Bay. And today, here on Midday, we are joined by Mike Veeck, the principal owner of the wildly popular St. Paul Saints, a team that features, among other things, a ball pig, a masseuse, a barber. Mr. Veeck comes naturally to his promotional wizardry. He is the son of legendary baseball Major League Baseball owner Bill Veeck. Mr. Veeck, thanks for coming in.

MIKE VEECK: Thanks for having me. Mr. Veeck makes me nervous right off the bat. It sounds like a banker, something that has been always elusive in my life, trying to find.

GARY EICHTEN: You must be making so much money you're going to have to be a banker on that team. It's wall to wall out there.

MIKE VEECK: It is indeed wall to wall, but at 3, 5, and 6, money really wasn't the driving force to start this. Actually, people who wanted a real taste of baseball the way it used to be, and we think should be, are the ones involved. But I'm amazed. I mean, when I think about it, we've sold out the last five or six ballgames and I'm just-- absolutely it leaves me, when I think about it, I have no explanation for it other than wonderful fans.

GARY EICHTEN: Now, I don't know how to put this, are these real people buying real tickets, or are there some corporations buying up a bunch and passing them out and maybe you're papering the house a little bit?

MIKE VEECK: See, I knew I'd love doing this. I like getting right down to it. Yeah. One of the things that's most wonderful about this is the fact that out of our 1,200 or 1,250 season seats, 100 or 150 of them are corporate, which means that 1,100 people like us put their money down.

And what that means to an operator is that those are people who will use their tickets come hell or high water. Those are the people that support a club because they're saying, here's my $200, and I want you to entertain me. Which hopefully, on occasion, we do. Corporate seats sit empty.

In Fort Myers where we operate the A Club for the Twins, adding irony to irony, we have 250 season seats, and we get a 30% usage so that you see a great number of seats that aren't used. Because if you're not winning, and 17.5 games out after the first half in Fort Myers doesn't qualify as winning, they don't show, and that breaks an operator's heart.

GARY EICHTEN: Well, now, you are a genius at promotion. I don't think anybody would argue about that. But how are the other teams in the League doing there?

MIKE VEECK: They're experiencing the same reception, Gary, that we are. The weak sister, if you would, in public perception, incorrectly, I believe, is Rochester, who, one, got a late start, and, two, they see only 2,400 in that wonderful little park. So averaging 1,600 or 1,700, you're operating at 70% capacity. That's pretty good in anybody's book.

Thunder Bay probably has been the most surprising other than St. Paul to me. They're averaging close to 4,000. Ricky May has a great operation up there. Sioux City and Sioux Falls are both in the mid-3's, so it's very healthy and growing. I think expansion will be a definite for next year, probably two clubs.

Miles Wolff, who's the president commissioner, and our David [? Stearn ?] is going to keep very tight reins on this League so that growth will be intelligent, will be slow rather than move too fast, and will not be driven by greed, but be driven by areas where there's a reciprocity in terms of a feeling back and forth between the community and the ball club. So where normally I get fined constantly by commissioners. I'm very proud of the fact that I have yet to be fined by the Northern League.

GARY EICHTEN: When Major League Baseball came to this area, indeed, this happened all around the country when Major League Baseball expanded, when they got on TV, nationwide TV, the minor leagues shriveled up. Now, why is it, do you suppose, your League is thriving with the Twins here?

MIKE VEECK: I think that there are a number of reasons for it. The first one and the most important one is bigness, is just the sheer size. We've become a society that's desensitized, that's depersonalized, that's disenfranchised. And this is a throwback, and we most definitely are a throwback.

If you have a complaint in a Northern League, you can find an operator, you can find the people responsible. And I think that people react and respond to that. Corporate sales have been overblown. And we invented some of that on the South Side of Chicago, I'm not proud anymore to say. I was very proud of that at a point in time of saying we'd created this large corporate monster that provided promotional vehicles.

I don't feel that way anymore. I think that skyboxes and the things that we invented on the South side have become a scourge. So I think people respond to the personality of the club, which is very much a one-on-one. I think that underneath it all, the price factor is a great driving force, $3, $5, and $6.

And, of course, here in the Twin Cities, people would say, well, there's no question that people in St. Paul are starved for outdoor baseball. I mean, I got off the plane and somebody said, what do you think about outdoor baseball?

And I looked at them like they had just grown a foot out of their forehead. I mean, what do you mean what do I think about it? There's no other way to play. And then I remembered that Andy never gets a suntan during the summer, and I-- gosh. I didn't mean that. I was going to go after Patrick Reusse today. What am I doing? I've lost my priorities.

GARY EICHTEN: Our guest today is Mike Veeck, who owns the St. Paul Saints of the Northern League, and I want to go to our first caller in just a second. But I have to ask you about the Reusse column today. He didn't really take too much of a shot at your team or your League, but he did allow as how the quality of ball is not all that great.

A budget ball, I believe, is how you refer to it. How do you assess the quality? If you had to put it on the scale of the traditional minor leagues, where would where would the Northern League fit in?

MIKE VEECK: I think that we're somewhere hovering on certain days-- we're certainly above A ball and Caliber and probably not quite Double-A. So I think that somewhere in between is where we nestle right now. The thing about-- and I love Reusse, so-- even a minor rip is a great compliment from Patrick. He's a thoughtful guy. He knows what he's talking about.

And what he saw yesterday was, after eight innings, a pretty good ball game, and in the ninth inning, a terrible ball game. I take exception to the fact that he didn't mention Kevin Miller, who can play in anybody's system. And I go back to the fact that I am languishing right now in Fort Myers with the same problem that the Twins have that's permeated our or their organization at this point in time.

So the fact is that Kevin Miller at third base can play in any organization tomorrow. Hurting Steiner in center field is much better than a journeyman ball player, so I think that he could help a club either at the Double-A or the Triple-A level. And the Twins ought to sign Jim Eppard tomorrow as a utility man.

So I believe that there will be a lot more talent. There is no question that in some areas we're thin and on days we're erratic. But it is a fledgling League, and I think that the talent will just get better and better.

And there is misinformation constantly. We've been added now to three team scouting agendas in the last week and a half. So somebody's watching. And it's going to be really interesting over the course of the next month and a half to see how many clubs follow suit. So just spell our name right. Patrick.

GARY EICHTEN: Let's go to the phones for our first caller. Hi, you're on Minnesota Public Radio.

AUDIENCE: Hi. How are you doing? I have a question, and it was touched on briefly. You had mentioned that there was going to be two teams added in the future. What cities are being considered for expansion? And another question is, you're unaffiliated now. Is there any plans for an affiliation for one or any of the teams in the League? And I'll hang up and listen to your answers. Thank you.

GARY EICHTEN: Thanks for the call.

MIKE VEECK: I'd like to, if I might answer the second question first because it's so simple. We don't want any affiliation. The reason that we're involved in this League is because affiliations have become cumbersome.

The commissioner's office has become-- well, who is the commissioner of baseball? Oh, I know. I know. It's Casper, the friendly ghost. He's not in there. Gee, can you imagine this, that we're operating without a commissioner? And that's one of the reasons why we don't want to be involved.

The bureaucracy has become unbearable. The acrimonious relations between the major leagues and the minor leagues is only going to get worse, and I quite honestly don't want Fay Vincent or anybody-- Bowie of Kuhn, remember him-- ruling on Minor League matters. I think there are other things they should worry themselves about.

Expansion, speaking out of school, but, of course, that's never stopped me, I believe that right now, if you were to poll everyone, that Eau Claire would be the front runner, and Winnipeg, as we sit here. Fargo-Moorhead, it's no secret, is a hotbed for baseball and one that we would like to get in. Fargo-Moorhead is not very enamored right now with having us.

And this is a thing that I think is important. Their amateur program in Fargo-Moorhead is tremendously strong, that's why it would be a great hotbed for us, but they're not trusting of professional sporting endeavors, and I think with good reason. I think that so many times people come in and get carried away with what they mean to a community without earning it.

So if Fargo-Moorhead says, we don't want our amateur programs pushed around by guys that we don't know what their motives are, what their intent is, I say, so be it. Take a watch and see if we are what we say we are, then in time it'll be good. We certainly have accommodated tremendous programs, amateur programs here in St. Paul and Municipal Stadium, and I think that it's been good for everyone involved.

And I think that if you're going to be a member of the community, you have to work around those programs. But I think Eau Claire, I think Winnipeg, and I hope Fargo-Moorhead. The fourth one I don't have an opinion on.

GARY EICHTEN: Back to this affiliation thing--

SPEAKER: [SCREAM]

GARY EICHTEN: --is there any chance, is there any chance that rather than a formal affiliation, you could work out a deal with the Twins so that they would, essentially, stock some of the teams in the League. I would think it would be great promotion for them. It'd be great promotion for you folks. You'd get some good players.

MIKE VEECK: There is no question that if I were sitting in Billy Smith's shoes or Jim Rance's, first of all, it doesn't make any sense for the Twins and the Saints not to coexist in perfect harmony. Because our fans are their fans. And they're Major League Baseball. They're going to always be Major League Baseball. And that, even as angry as it makes me, is an alluring aphrodisiac. I mean, it's the greatest game there is.

This is a source of talent. Any time there's a source of talent, it makes only good sense to scout it, and it would make-- 5,000 people would stand up and cheer Jerry Bell and Carl and Andy were they to sign somebody from the Saints. And I believe-- I know because I operate their A Club, that there are several guys who could play in their organization. And think of the marriage that would make.

So informal arrangements, I love those. We have a ball club in Melbourne in the Australian Baseball League, and that's one of the funniest. The godfather of my daughter is Dombrowski, who runs the Marlins. I keep announcing we have an informal relationship, and, of course, nobody wants anything to do with a Veeck, so he keeps denying it.

I say, come on, you bum. I got four of your players. So that kind of informality would be great, as long as we don't have to answer or kowtow to commissioners and phony executive councils that really don't have the love of the game and have-- only lining their pockets.

GARY EICHTEN: Let's go back to the phones for another question for Mike Veeck. Hello.

AUDIENCE: Hi, Mike and Bob. This is Jack in Oakdale. I don't have a question, but I have a comment, if you're willing to accept one. I appreciate very much your bringing outdoor real baseball back to the Twin Cities, Mike, and especially what you did for Joe Hauser early in the season. That was very, very touching and very, very enjoyable.

I do have a recommendation for you. Hang on to Hertenstein and Eppard and those guys if you can. Maybe the Twins would like to scout them. But one recommendation for you and that is, please, don't get rid of your PA announcer. If he wants to renegotiate, your public address announcer, by all means, give him everything he wants. He really adds a lot to the game. Again, thanks for bringing real baseball back to this area.

GARY EICHTEN: All right. Thanks for your call. I should point out to people who haven't been to a Saints game that, among other things, the thing I thought was kind of interesting was that the PA fellow does most of the, I don't know what you call them, fanfares that you hear at the Dome, except he does them himself. [VOCALIZING].

[LAUGHTER]

MIKE VEECK: Al [? Freckmann ?] is one of the really-- I think that in the next six months to eight months in this town, Al [? Freckmann ?] is going to be one of the real talents, both for voiceovers and speaking engagements and stuff.

And it's one of those wonderful things you say, how can a window dresser, a man who's decided at this point in his life to change his career path, wants to suddenly become a PA announcer and has made this switch and brought to it a freshness that I hope is reflected throughout the organization.

And the Joe Hauser thing, I just want to say, Dave Wright said to me three days after I'd been in town, we have to have a tribute to Joe Hauser because he's never been honored. And that was one of the great ideas that anyone on our staff's had. And it was a sweet moment. It's kind of like the Miñoso thing.

These things mean things. These are the textures and the traditions that make up this tapestry of baseball. And that's what we are in danger of losing. We just need to find our sense of humor. Anything that we do at a Saints game will work at the Major League level.

This thing that we're bush and that it's-- well, they can do that in the minor leagues because there are only 5,000 people, that's poppycock. It works great at any level. Because what, do people stop laughing at Major League portals?

GARY EICHTEN: But isn't there a danger-- not a danger, but isn't it a fact that so much attention is devoted to off-field activities at a Saints game that people don't necessarily notice the relatively poor quality of play? You have to have all these distractions, really, just to keep people interested.

MIKE VEECK: I can tell you that having done time with the 1979 White Sox, which in my lifetime was the worst ball club I've ever seen, many times we tried not to play the games to keep people from noticing. So it is true that-- I'm constantly accused of cheap theatrics. And you know something, I'm guilty.

I love cheap theatrics. I love laughing in a world that doesn't laugh anymore. I take my work-- I think that the work that we do, I think, is very important. I take it with a great deal of seriousness. But not yourself. I think you have to be able to laugh. So I don't ever want to be accused of tampering with the integrity of the game of this wonderful ballet.

But anything that happens to embellish it, underneath it all, there are some actual marketing precepts that work, which is try to get people in who haven't been to a ball game before. And if I have to have clowns who make people disappear on their way in, or string quartets to attract another segment, you bet I'm going to do it because that exposes them to this wonderful game.

And right now, according to surveys, youngsters aren't being exposed to this game with the same energetic approach that as I was growing up. So I think that it's important, the window dressing, if you will.

GARY EICHTEN: Now, your father, of course, was--

MIKE VEECK: Speaking of window dressers, the cheap theatrics.

GARY EICHTEN: Well, he made a name for himself as one of the great promoters. He and Calvin Griffith didn't get along together.

MIKE VEECK: Hated each other for a long time.

GARY EICHTEN: Why was that?

MIKE VEECK: Calvin, on occasion, if you weren't employed directly or weren't a member of his family, could be somewhat parsimonious, I suppose. And Calvin and dad really became the dinosaurs. The last of the independent operators who would ride into town with not great bankrolls, and their only business was baseball.

So that while there were differences, and they were constantly at each other, which goes back many years to when he was operating, for example, the Senators and dad was trying to move the Brownies into Baltimore and the like, but in the end, they became very friendly because they were the last. They were fighting back to back. It was their Alamo for this game that they loved.

And Calvin Griffith, I will tell you, said when we started this endeavor that he would support it any way. And I thought that that was wonderful coming from a guy who has certainly become, at best, an icon in this market.

I mean, Calvin Griffith scouted those teams himself. He built some real powerhouses, and he did it without an extensive-- you talk to Jim Rance to this day, and he was the guy who brought Jim Rance in and a number of people. Calvin Griffith knew and knows his baseball. And they just didn't get along because dad was ornery.

GARY EICHTEN: Do you think if Calvin still owned the Twins, that your relationship, the Saints relationship with the Twins would be different?

MIKE VEECK: Yeah. I think that Calvin would look and say this, this is fun and it's silly and it may be insignificant, but it is baseball and they are trying. And I think that we'd get a real honest count. And I know that Calvin would have it scouted. Calvin would come and scout it himself. So that would be a difference. Absolutely.

GARY EICHTEN: Our guest today is Mike Veeck who owns the St. Paul Saints of the Northern League. That's the new baseball league, the Minor League that's operating around our region this summer, first year. Teams in, Saint Paul, Duluth, Rochester, Sioux Falls, Sioux City, and Thunder Bay. And we thought it'd be fun today to talk baseball with Mr. Veeck. Let's go back to the phones for another call. Hello.

AUDIENCE: Hello. Hello.

GARY EICHTEN: Yes. Go ahead.

AUDIENCE: [INAUDIBLE] from Minneapolis. Congratulations, Mr. Veeck, on bringing baseball to the area, particularly outside baseball. My last ticket was in Minneapolis at the Dome, but I went to Saint Paul way up in the upper boonies, and I couldn't see it anyway. Anyway, what I want to do now is, how do we get tickets for the rest of the season? I have an info number, but I don't get any answer.

MIKE VEECK: Really?

AUDIENCE: Yeah.

MIKE VEECK: Well, just call 644-6659.

AUDIENCE: What I got.

MIKE VEECK: And I can't believe you don't get it. Call it right this moment. And otherwise, we'll call you. We'll call you up 20 minutes after we leave the air. And I can tell you that Annie's probably writing the number down now and saying, man, I'm going to call. So you'll have a height of copper all over you momentarily. But thanks for your kind words. And we will call. And I apologize if we've been remiss, but we were open 18 hours a day, I can tell you that firsthand.

GARY EICHTEN: Thanks for your call. Let's go to another caller. Hi. Yes. Go ahead.

AUDIENCE: OK. I've got a couple of questions. One-- or a comment first. I'm really enjoying having the Saints in town. The last outdoor baseball game I was at was the last home game of the Milwaukee Braves, to give you some sense about how long it's been.

My questions deal with who Mr. Veeck is trying to bring to the park with all the various promotions. You'd mentioned that you'd bring a string quartet out to attract a different bunch of folks to the park, but who are you trying to get there?

And then secondly, I've noticed when I've been at Saints games the same thing that you see at Major League games, which is there aren't a whole lot of fans of color in the stands. And I'm wondering if Mr. Veeck sees that as an issue and whether-- or what the Saints are trying to do to respond to that.

GARY EICHTEN: All right. First of all, who are you targeting?

MIKE VEECK: Actually, families really are the target. And they're the target because of a certain preoccupation I have with-- I'm 42 years old. I have the greatest job in America. I get paid based on my level of immaturity. And so I relate better to children. I have a 7-year-old and a 19-month-old, and I believe this game belongs to the youth. They're not jaded, and I love that.

So families are because children can't drive. If I could run a ballpark, ideally, for me, I probably wouldn't let adults in simply because we give up our dreams too quickly and heartache isn't fun. But those wonderful years of being blissful, we hope that for three hours you can recreate those.

It doesn't mean that I don't want senior citizens. It doesn't mean that I don't want people my age. But quite honestly, that look on a kid's face when they see their first game is still, I think, the most-- it's how I connect with my dad. I mean, let's cut to the quick. I remember holding his hand walking in when I was 8 years old to Comiskey Park thinking, my dad must be an unbelievable gardener because I'd never seen anything that green. And so there's a connection for me.

We want them all. We try to do-- the Bill Murray Film Festival is for us. It's for 40-year-olds who think Bill Murray is the funniest guy in the history of the world, which I happen to think. We're going to show movies all night out in center field until 5 o'clock in the morning. Is it silly? You bet it's silly. Who will it draw? Hopefully it'll draw a bunch of middle-aged people who can dance and act goofy and relive that careless rapture.

People of color, terrible problem. A terrible problem and one that I haven't been able to do anything about because I don't know the area. Because I haven't been in town long enough to know what to do or to whom to speak to figure out what to do. Baseball is in trouble. In 1959, when my dad operated the White Sox and they won a pennant, they did 3% Black attendance, for example.

In 1978, when we had Larry Doby managing, we had 3% attendance. It didn't move one way or another. And I think that the problem is, believe it or not, and everybody's going to think, this is really begging the question, one of geography. You don't have 22 ball fields built in inner cities, for example. So there is not a way to spread the gospel.

Basketball has done a great job. It's quick. It's fast. It's geared to the MTV generation, so kids are growing up. And, of course, who wouldn't want to be able to fly like Michael Jordan?

GARY EICHTEN: But even football is doing better than baseball.

MIKE VEECK: Yeah.

GARY EICHTEN: Not appreciably, but it is doing better.

MIKE VEECK: One of the other problems that I have, for example, with the recent attack by-- I'm not a Reverend Jackson fan either, but one of the points that he does make that is fair is we don't need training programs. We don't need five-year plans. The Marshall plans already happened.

What we need are to go into other areas and grab talented people, talented people, and put them in positions to learn this business. This ain't brain surgery. Deciding who can play second base is how many ball games you've seen. And how to count beans works the same for Ryder trucks, and it works the same for Norwest, and it works the same for a baseball team.

So in order to insulate ourselves against our lack of good hiring practices, what we say is, it's a specialized business. So if the point is that we've not done much, absolutely, we haven't done much, and that's because I don't know what to do. If you call me in a year, I will guarantee that we'll have made strides simply because it's something that we believe in and we'll work harder at it.

GARY EICHTEN: Back to the phones, another question for Mike Veeck. Hello.

AUDIENCE: Hi. Calling from Duluth. And I'm not a sports fan in particular, but I'd like you guys to comment on the socio-religious implications of modern sports in modern society. And also, I'd like to say that I think that the Dukes are a great thing, and it's a good community thing that's coming together. And so I'm for it in that sense, although I'm not particularly a sports fan.

GARY EICHTEN: OK. Thanks for your call.

MIKE VEECK: Socio-religious. It's a tough thing to ask a Catholic. I hope mom will understand. What do you get when you cross a Catholic with the Duke of Earl? Geez, you get a bad song. I'm Catholic.

What does it mean? It's a gathering of the tribes. For 2000 years, we've had our games. It seems much more humane to put nine ladies and gentlemen out on the field and have them oppose nine other ladies and gentlemen, 10 if you use the DH, it just seems a lot more sporting than to toss a scantily-clad Christian out and have the lions race.

We need our games now more than ever. And I will tell you, this will sound like a setup, but I got a call from a gentleman just a couple of weeks ago asking if I would speak to a group of clergy. And that's because I popped off once and said that, it's sometimes easier to fill a ballpark than it is to fill a church.

Which amazes me because religion is no more than hope. And hope not only springs eternal, but is one of our most wonderful resources that's known to humanity. So I think that we can't overemphasize the import of our games. We need games and we need them now more than ever.

Because it's not a fun world, basically. This idea of little idyllic lambs bouncing through Christianity on their way to the good life and the hereafter, why waste 70 years of your life yearning and waiting for that to happen? So games are important, gathering is important, and baseball is specifically important because there's time to visit.

You go to a baseball game as a stranger, you leave with four friends around you. I can't think of anything that is more humane, more human, more indicative of our condition than needing people. And so if I sound passionate-- and I've worked up a sweat over this, I am. I think it's very important.

And I accepted the good reverend's invitation to speak to a group of clergy because I do think that promotion helps everybody. And God needs a little promotion once in a while. With all due respect, wherever he or she is hanging out, you can promote anything if you believe in it.

GARY EICHTEN: Don't you think some people overdo the romance angle of baseball, though, the purity, the foul lines to infinity stuff?

MIKE VEECK: I don't like Roger Kahn. I never did. And he never liked me either.

GARY EICHTEN: Back to the phones. Another question for Mike Veeck. Hello.

AUDIENCE: Hello. Yes. Calling from Byron by Rochester. Just wanted to let you know that we attended our first Aces' game yesterday. We had a company function there and found it just to be an exceptional value. We got a little picnic and really enjoyed the game.

GARY EICHTEN: Your team is beating Veeck's team here?

AUDIENCE: Yes. They are.

MIKE VEECK: You aren't kidding.

AUDIENCE: The other thing that was-- what I found refreshing, there's definitely a lack of prima donnas playing in this League. The kids had access to the players during before and after the game for autographs or whatever, and that was a real treat to see that.

MIKE VEECK: Without there being a question attached, the people in Rochester have Charles Sanders operating, who is one of the fine, decent, intelligent human beings of all time, and therein is a huge selling point. No one wants to say, listen, it's too expensive for me to go to four Major League games. That's why the Twins and the Aces, the Twins and the Saints can coexist so wonderfully.

Because it is an economic reality. You can see a Saints game or an Aces game and be a big wheel, and we all like to be big spenders for $20. That's a double sawbuck, for those of you who are my age, $20, and you can go whole hog. You'll pardon the expression. I know the Saints would like to pardon that expression.

But, I mean, I think that's important. And the question of overemphasis on the romance of this game, I believe that in-- when I was holding this giant's hand--

GARY EICHTEN: Your father?

MIKE VEECK: That's right. It was just like he was holding his father's hand when he saw his first game at Wrigley Field and there's a chain. So is it over? Sure. Because people can make money and can make movies and can romanticize it to a nauseating degree. But there is something to be said for this wonderful chain.

During a World Series, crime rate goes down to nothing. It's the one time that people can share this common bond. How did the Twins do, they say. How are the Twins doing? And the banker sitting next to a bricklayer, sitting next to an artist, sitting next to a ballerina, all of these people have something in common, and we don't have that in the human condition very often. Increasingly, we have that not in common. So I think that maybe sometimes we don't romanticize it enough.

GARY EICHTEN: The players in the League, are they all trying to get to the big leagues? I mean, obviously, they'd like to, but realistically, are they all trying to get there, or are many of them there because they'd rather be playing baseball than doing something else for a few months?

MIKE VEECK: Well, I think that what you have, any time you have a competitive athlete, you have someone who aspires to be, not similar to a man becoming. But between the lines, athletes have no aspirations except to win, to be the best. So that I think that if 132 players are out there over the course of a season, that 120 believe that they're good enough to play in an organization.

I wouldn't be involved if it were, as it's referred to sometimes, as townball. I have no interest in that. The credibility for this League-- and it's why I like Reusse, for example, he's right. Patrick hopefully will have to eat that column by the fact that six or eight players are signed by Major League organizations.

If that doesn't happen, then I have to eat that column. I believe that six or eight guys out of this League will be signed by Major League organizations. Indeed, I've bet Andy MacPhail at dinner on it, and I'm already tasting that dinner. I just haven't decided where.

GARY EICHTEN: Our guest today is Mike Veeck who owns St. Saint Paul Saints of the Northern League, the outdoor minor league that is playing around our region this year, its inaugural season. Lots of people are on the phones with questions. Let's go to another caller. Hi.

AUDIENCE: Hi. My name is Fred in Minneapolis. I got a couple of comments and a question for you. One thing about the quality of play, I mean, if you look at your roster, any of the other Northern League rosters, you see a lot of guys who are very successful NCAA baseball players, pretty good minor leaguers and stuff like that.

And I've watched plenty of University of Minnesota games, and I think it's a very good baseball. I think your baseball is better. And I think that Minor League Baseball in general doesn't get enough respect. And I'd also like to comment on showmanship and the tradition, thereof, in your family.

I grew up looking at a book that had a cover of a guy sitting in bleachers, looking off into the distance, and it was called Veeck As in Wreck. And in that book, it talks a lot about showmanship. But it also said that there's one guy that beat the Yankees to the World Series between '49 and '59. He did it twice with two different teams.

So you know the value of Saint the Pig, and you also know the value of the letter W, because that'll get as many warm seats as anything else. And I guess the main comment I have, I went to your first weekday game, which I think was a big surprise for everybody. It was Tuesday. There were about 500, 1,000 people there and things were a little lined up.

Well, you sold me my ticket. And that, to me, is the secret of what successful management is. If the toilet's backing up and the manager is the one standing there, he's the one that grabs the plunger. He doesn't wait for the plunger guy. And I think if you keep that attitude up, you're going to be successful.

And now I have one caviling question. The cheapest hat you've got is $15. Can't you get a cheap $8 one that's made out of cotton or something? I like to wear them till they fall apart.

MIKE VEECK: [LAUGHS]

GARY EICHTEN: You gouging the people at the concession stand there, Mike?

MIKE VEECK: The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. Fred, I'm telling you, man, I appreciate it. And we will-- we do have to make a note. It's true that our cheapest hat, I think, is $15. And while it's in line with both Minor League operations across the country, we will look into that. And if that's a problem that we have, then I promise you, you'll find something.

Because you do know, we are responsive. Minor League Baseball doesn't get enough respect because a majority of the guys in Major League Baseball haven't ever been in Minor League Baseball. They've never plunged a john. They just thought they were born marketing wizards who came in.

And I really appreciate the remarks about my daddy winning because he's going to be remembered for as long as these things are remembered, or there's a saloon where they tell funny stories, there's the guy who brought the little midget to bat. But the fact is that winning was most important.

And I got a club that's affiliated with the Twins in Fort Myers, and we were 17 and 1/2 games back and were in second place in attendance, and you kill yourself to get those people to come out. Because I got or I had in the first half a not very good ball club.

And so all of those guys, and there are a lot of Minor League operators who are guilty of it, who say that people will come out, win or lose, are talking through their hat. Because the more W's you put up, the more turnstiles will click. And winning is still the greatest promotion. And even Wild Bill and all his craziness said, man, nothing beats a winner.

GARY EICHTEN: St. Paul columnist Charley Walters said you folks are going to make $300,000 to $400,000 this first season. Is that accurate?

MIKE VEECK: I don't have any idea. I've redone that budget 11 times. They've flown in experts from New York to look at the thing now. Because we set up our numbers to draw 2,500 people, and we just about break even at that. So at 5,000, I think that we have a chance to make some money. Nowhere near that amount, in my opinion.

GARY EICHTEN: What do you do next year? Now, this year, I've got to think part of the reason that it's gone over so well is the novelty of it. It's outdoor and-- what do you do next year?

MIKE VEECK: You do the same thing better. You constantly-- as soon as you think you know this business, you've got to a fool using your head. Because it constantly evolves. It constantly changes. It's like Patrick made reference to what a silly promotion Coneheads were.

I did a thing, mimo-vision, I thought was going to be a wonderful thing, couldn't help but get national attention. People hated it. St Paulites do not like mimes. I don't understand that. I love mimes. They're so innocuous.

But our hot dog sales went up 30% because people were looking for things to throw at them. I mean, they voted instantly. This was a stupid idea, Mike. Well, I've been having stupid ideas for 20 years, but we keep trying. And I'll give you one perfect example of, I hope, what people sense in that park.

The 4th of July, we had a ball game on Saturday night, the 3rd of July. And we were very fortunate and we sold out. And then people who stayed saw a fireworks show, the likes of which I'd like to think they haven't seen for a long time. That's what you do. You do more and more.

So we're constantly putting back into the operation the money we-- I would spend $40,000 on fireworks just because, at that moment in time, when those aerial bombs go off and those 5-inch shells, I can reach out and touch my father. I can reach out and remember all those times I felt so secure.

So I love to do things bigger, excess. I love excess. I love wretched excess. And so we're going to try every kind of thing we can to attract different people. And you can never sit back on your laurels because what's the fun of being the same?

GARY EICHTEN: Let's go back to the phones. Another caller is on the line. Hello.

AUDIENCE: Hello. This is Steve from Golden Valley, and I wanted to know about the concessions. Can I get a good beer there? That doesn't mean Miller or Budweiser, like, a microbrewery beer. And what's the food like? Are the hot dogs better than you'd want to throw them or would you actually eat them?

MIKE VEECK: Yeah. That's one thing-- the area where we're weakest in is we have a building that was built to handle 2,000 to 2,500 people. So you have to wait a little while in some instances when we lose control. But when you get up there, it's worth the wait.

We got great food. We sell $1.5 hot dog. We got pizza by the slice for $1. We sell pig's eye, a particular favorite of mine. I think the food's very good. And most importantly, the food is very affordable also. So I think in that one we get to blow our own horn a little bit.

GARY EICHTEN: Another caller's on the line. Hello, you're on Minnesota Public Radio.

AUDIENCE: This is John from St. Paul. I just want to offer a compliment to Mike and his group. First of all, I want to say he's a great philosopher, listening to him today.

But the complement that I really want to give him is that we took my mentally handicapped brother-in-law with nine others to a birthday party on that July 3 evening, in which the club gives you a cake and puts your name in lights, and the name is announced over the public address system several times. And this is really a highlight for a guy that really follows professional baseball and is now just getting into the Saints because he is watching the newspaper on the Saints.

But just a compliment on what the club has done to make it more enjoyable for everybody. And I have to say that the hijinks between the endings also helps make a game that sometimes can be called pretty slow go by pretty fast.

GARY EICHTEN: Thanks for your call.

MIKE VEECK: Thank you.

GARY EICHTEN: Let's go back to the phones for another caller. Hello.

AUDIENCE: Good afternoon. I'm Gary from Saint Cloud. I have a comment and two questions. In regards to the prima donna thing or comment that somebody made earlier, I think we've created our own monster in that sense that there are so many demands made on Major League players that they almost have to become a little bit standoffish just to maintain some sense of privacy or to maintain their own space.

The two questions. One, I was wondering how the experiment with the little pig ball carrier is working out. And I was also wondering how you're going to be stocking the team next year. Are you going to hold tryouts the same as you did this year?

MIKE VEECK: The answer to the second is, yes, we'll have tryouts just like we did this past year. And I might add, they were tryouts held all over the country.

We will also be stocked by recommendations from four or five undisclosed Major League sources, such as David Dombrowski with the Marlins, Ron Schueler with the White Sox, Roland Hemond with the Orioles. I don't want to identify anybody, so I'll just name it. Oh, yeah. Well, anyhow.

And we'll be stocked because everybody has favorites. Everybody has guys that they think can play that are ultimately released by the decision makers. And that's how we're going to continue this League and continue to stock this League.

The pig, all I can tell you is that Life Magazine is either shooting the pig or coming to shoot the pig along with a stylist. The Saint was in Sports Illustrated two weeks ago. He's already renegotiating.

I've stopped all the rotisserie jokes. I'm not making any more jokes that we're going to eat them at the end of the season. He's picking up a pound a day. And, in fact, we may end up eating one of the front office people on these rather than the pig. I mean, he's now in a very powerful position.

And this is going to make me really unpopular with you, but I have to address this thing about creating our own monsters. Anybody who came to a Saints game on the opening weekend could have bought their program from Bill Murray. Now, I don't know anything about--

Bill Murray, to me, is a guy who's a wonderful human being who happens to be a very famous actor. But I will tell you that Bill Murray on Saturday night sat in the rain, sat in the rain for an hour after the ball game and signed every single autograph for anybody who wanted one. Now, is Bill Murray more famous than most Major League ballplayers we can name? I think so.

If Bill Murray can do it and be that accessible, then don't tell me that we have a problem. There are so many demands. I can tell you something. You walk down the street with Bill Murray and it's like a human magnet. There are 300 people on you, and he doesn't have a driver, and he doesn't have an attitude. And I love him because he dresses worse than I do, which is really, really ugly.

GARY EICHTEN: Well, you grew up around big league ballplayers. Was that always been the case that they were-- you have Kirby Puckett's and so on, but there are precious few of those. Has this always been the case that most of the players are pretty aloof?

MIKE VEECK: No. I think that what's happened are that the layers that we've added in the last 10, 15 years, the managers, the agents, the business managers, the booking agents are the people who create the insulation. And, of course, because the Players Association has gotten stronger, because of the indentured servitude that was operative for years, they have to go too far. And what you have is a period of adjustment.

This town, I think this town is a wonderful place. And I'm not hustling the town, I'm saying that because I've moved up here because of the allure of the effect that it's had. The fact that people are willing to embrace an idea. But this market, I think, knows what it has in Kirby Puckett.

You have the ambassador of baseball. You have one of the finest human beings. And if baseball had 40 more Kirby-- of course, he wouldn't be so special then. But if they had 40 more people like Kirby Puckett, the game wouldn't be in the state that it's in.

Accessibility. People can't feel disenfranchised right now, and the change in the players isn't in the players at all, but in the people who deal with them. Indeed, the cottage industry that's jumped up around the players, guys trying to make a buck.

It's still pretty flattering to have somebody come up with their glasses all askance and look in and go, could I have your autograph? Just like I went after-- I always hated Mickey Mantle because when I was 7, he gave me the cold shoulder. I hate the Yankees for good reason, man. And he can kiss my bat.

GARY EICHTEN: Our guest is Mike Veeck. We have about six minutes left to go. We're talking about the Northern League, the St. Paul Saints specifically, and the return of Minor League outdoor baseball to the region. Another caller is on the line with a question. Hello.

AUDIENCE: Hello.

GARY EICHTEN: Yes. Go ahead, sir.

AUDIENCE: Dave from Bloomington. And, Mike, we're happy to have you with us. Really, it's a tremendous thing for us.

I went down to Rochester the night before the game you were talking about at St. Paul and met some friends, and we went to the Rochester-St. Paul game down there, and it was the most beautiful evening, I think, I've spent at a baseball park in many, many, many years. And the moon came up over the center field and it was just fantastic. Unfortunately, St. Paul lost by a couple of runs, but it was a good game.

I like the time limits that you have set for getting things in play and the pitcher on the mound, the batter getting in the box and so on. I think that's great. One, I guess I don't know if it's a question or not, but I really take issue with quality of play being an issue on attendance. Because these people play good ball. They really are.

And we wouldn't go to high school games or college games or whatever if all we were looking for was the best players. We're looking for competition and just entertainment. It's great to have you. Thank you.

MIKE VEECK: Well, thank you very much. It's an interesting thing. I will tell you a conversation-- I can't mention the name simply because it would be inappropriate. But there were a couple of umpires talking, and one of the things that has happened is that because of the caliber of amateur programs throughout Minnesota-- and we've run into a number of umpires, some of whom are actually pretty good, and I hate umpires.

But I heard them just a couple of days ago talking, and one of the remarks was, I haven't ever seen a pitch like this. And these are guys who call high school games, college games, amateur games legion games. And so that speaks for itself. And the word will spread is that these guys are pretty good caliber ballplayers. And if we have to combat misinformation, that makes it sweeter. So I think that everyone should be skeptical and wait to see if we survive.

GARY EICHTEN: Mike, you've taken Major League Baseball, professional baseball to task a little bit today. If you had the chance, though, would you like to be back in the big leagues as an owner, as a PR person, whatever?

MIKE VEECK: Well, I have had, as you might imagine, some interesting conversations with the Twins about why I would run the ball club in Fort Myers and then come up here. And as I point out to them, I haven't had a Major League job offer in 14 years. I am virtually unemployable.

And I had a lot of trouble with that for a number of years. My ego, I have-- even as I say it, I feel myself getting defensive and posturing about it. I could work for a Bill Veeck or another guy like Bill Veeck tomorrow. I could work for Roland Hemond in the Baltimore Orioles in a New York minute. I couldn't work for Steinbrenner in New York lifetime.

I think that respect and dignity work both ways. And so I would love to work in the bigs with the right club, but I don't think that it's possible to have any more fun than I'm having now. And as we get older-- I'm 42. I'm pretty happy. And when I think back over my lifetime, what is important to me, I need to be happy.

The rest of the things take care of themselves. I love what I do. I'm so fortunate to have-- Marvin Goldklang rescued me from the pile of broken down old baseball guys. As Andy says, you'll get back. You'll get back. He keeps saying, you'll get back.

He says to me, how can you operate down the street? I said, hey, man, I'll get back, but when? I'm old. I'm not even a Young Turk anymore. I'm an angry, middle-aged man. I mean, James Dean never made movies about guys like me, got three chins.

GARY EICHTEN: Mike, we've got to run. We're out of time. Thanks so much for coming in. I sure appreciate it.

MIKE VEECK: Thank you very much. It was just a lot of fun. And great questions. You have wonderful audience.

GARY EICHTEN: Great talking with you. Mike Veeck, who is the principal owner of the St. Paul Saints. One of the six teams in the new Northern League that's playing outdoor Minor League Baseball around our region.