(00:00:01) Live coverage of issues and events is made possible by the public affairs fund contributors to the fund include the law firm of Opperman Hines and penguin with offices in Minneapolis and Washington, DC. Public transit issues are the focus of the discussion during this hour. My guests here in the studio in Saint Paul is Mike ehrlichman chairman of the regional transit board. Mike welcomes. Nice to have you on the air. Thank you among the things we can talk about today Light Rail Transit the MTC bus system Metro Mobility ride sharing and other issues that you may want to raise as well because we will be opening the phone lines for your questions for Mike ehrlichman and just a few minutes our discussion today is timely Mike and that the regional transit board just last night approved Metro Light Rail plan as I understand it. The first stage would include a line connecting the downtown's Minneapolis st. Paul and then a tunnel from the north end of downtown Minneapolis out to about Lake Street or so. Is that right? Well that was until our recommendation last night. Right? One of the process was the plan was initially developed by The Joint Light Rail advisory committee. That was a committee composed of County Commissioners from the Rare authorities 27 County area Department of Transportation and MTC they developed a plan which they forwarded to us where the where the managing body of this plan and we made amendments to it particularly in the staging and and then we forwarded our plan on to the Metro Council they returned it to us with their six recommendations last week and last night. We adopted quote the final plan. Now part of that one of those recommendations was that in the first phase Tunnel construction would take us only from the river to the convention center and that the remainder of the tunnel would be completed when the corridor linking that tunnel or that the corridor linking up with the tunnel was constructed so that the segment between the runs roughly South East between the convention center. 29th and Lake Street will be constructed when the Hiawatha Corridor is construct. I see so you're delaying the digging of that Tunnel right to later the group a which we refer to as the infrastructure the system in other words that part of any system which is essential to any other Corridor being successful includes the downtown st. Paul system, which is proposed to be surface the corridor linking downtown st. Paul and the tunnel in Downtown Minneapolis. And then the yard the downtown tunnel in Minneapolis and the Arts and shops the Arts and shops Corsa that the maintenance facilities for running the system. Now the plan goes to the legislature. What do you think the legislature is going to do with it? Well, first of all, they'll receive and and discuss our plan. I think in fact, we have a hearing at eight o'clock Tuesday Morning in Senate Transportation subcommittee, but essentially they We'll be responding hopefully two proposals that the regional transit board will generate for providing financing for the system. Like any other major public project involves a lot of dollars and it includes the possibility of a couple of taxes. Why don't you tell us what the options are? Well what what the regional transit board and the Metro Council and and other groups of endorsed. What we propose to do is our first priority source for funding would be to establish a one cent sales tax and the seven-county metro area that would be used for broad-based transportation recent purposes that we call it the transportation tax, but half of the revenue we perceive right now would be used to fund Light Rail Transit construction as we go through on a permanent basis part of that would be used for General. For tation Transit programs like circulator systems to feed Light Rail and just new Transit programs in the metro area. Then the remaining have we see divided up for County highways County Roads Municipal streets Trail systems, like horse trails running trip as bike paths as well as Parkways. So we see that being how the revenue would be distributed. The idea being is that everyone would have an interest and benefit by this tax. Okay. That's that's simply those getting LRT right away. All right. That's that's the first type. That's the one percent increase in the sales tax for everything in the metro area, right? And what's the other one? The other proposal is right. Now the regional transit board does have an existing Debt Service tax. In other words, we can write now pay off any bonds that we sell we need authorization. Individual Bond sales from the legislature. So it's been proposed that we would go to the legislature you have for instance a sales tax weren't viable this session. We would then ask the legislature to allow us to sell bonds and pay them off Through The Debt Service property tax. I think there was a feeling on our board that while property tax could be used that it would be preferable to go a sales tax. We may also ask how receptive the state will be considering some of the financial issues for the state to contribute some money so that if we could fund the whole first phase which is around a hundred million, I mean 300 million, we would ask 400 from the states and then authorization for 200 for us, but all or part of that maybe what we get. It's it remains to be seen. Seen what support there will be at the legislature. I think they're rather I think remarkable fact that we've gotten almost every 1 to 2 in the metro area involved in this issue to agree on this plan now, which there are a lot of people who didn't think was possible and that that we now have a focus. We now have a conservative phase to develop and the fact that the public is demonstrated in recent surveys of proven that to be the case that there's overwhelming support for this project from the public. In fact, they're kind of at a, you know, fish or cut bait point, you know, come on quit talking about it make some decisions one way or the other. Let's see what's on the minds of folks today as we continue chatting with Mike ehrlichman chair of the regional transit board. If you have a question for him the phone number in the Minneapolis st. Paul area is 2276 thousand 2276 thousand the Twin Cities outside Minneapolis st. Paul call us toll-free at 1-866-553-2368. Stake question first from you. Go ahead please you're on with my chronic man. (00:07:28) Hi, um when I hear discussions of Light Rail Transit, there are certain Alternatives that I've never heard brought up or discuss it all and I'd like to hear a policy makers opinion about them one would be Reviving The Old commuter lines such as the one that ran through. Why is that on Hopkins? Because those are still there physically. So all you would have to do would be to put a train on them. Another one would be running a rail line in the median strips of freeways where they do in Chicago and there you have at least a free right-of-way all already there. And then the other thing which is brings up sort of a historical outrage is the fact that we used to have a light rail transit system in the Twin Cities that worked fine streetcars. Yeah, and then we tore it (00:08:34) up. Yeah remember them. Well, okay bike ehrlichman. What do you think about number one the idea of a Reviving those commuter lines like these to have on Wayzata and so on this is a good first call it can because I think those are questions that almost everybody asks. And in fact, I asked him when I first was involved in the issue, you know, why don't we just put Trains on those tracks. Yep, and I wish it were that simple. And the first thing you do when you ask that particularly if you're a policy maker like I am and not an engineer is that they start disappointing you the answers right away. Regrettably. Those tracks haven't been used for passenger traffic for many many years and he decades and in some cases where you see tracks they were never used for passenger and they aren't equipped to handle passenger traffic. Number one is because the roadbeds, you know, the rail beds over a period of years deteriorate. They need to be maintained for passenger traffic. The actual track itself was never designed for comfortable and and and the the speed did you'd have to accomplish to make a commuter rail or light rail fees. All they you can't put a vehicle on those tracks at that speed. Could you use the right away tear up the exist what you what ends up being the case and what is in fact going to be happening in a lot of the corridors with the light rail is you acquire the right away, which the counties have been as for instance in the southwest corner, you could acquire the right away and then you have start over yet. That's essentially all your left is the right away because you have to replace the bed replace the track and Light Rail is frankly in certain areas is a lot more economical and then than commuter rail commuter rail may have its application in this town in some point. But frankly, you can't generate the kind of traffic that you need to with the fewest stops. And with the size of the vehicles that you have with commuter rail and commuter rail runs on diesel as opposed to electrification. That was the first question and try to remember what all the second one. Why not use a Median right now freeway, that's another excellent question. And in fact one that I think and that has two answers number one it without. Well, it has the same answer without major reconstruction. There is no freeway Corridor right now that would accommodate Light Rail in the median. I should say there are two quarters to of the one is the first quarter for which there is still a possibility that the light rail could run within the quarter now down the center but in the quarter and there is the possibility within the 35W South Corridor that light rail could be accommodated in that Corridor as well. Now one of the most expensive aspects of Highway construction, of course is Bridges and when you run Light Rail and a quarter, you've got to be able to accommodate the freeway traffic while Light Rail reduces traffic. Not to the point to which you could obviously substantially reduce the number of lanes in a in addition. You've got to be able to accommodate cross traffic with Bridges as well as Light Rail. Now, in fact I was at a meeting this morning in which with Congressman phrase or a congressman stable and which we were discussing Light Rail Transit as the preferred alternative in the Reconstruction 35W South as I think most citizens in this community realized by having traveled at piece of highway. It's starting to get a lot of holes in it. So it's in desperate need of reconstruction the regional transit board in myself. I feel very strongly and in fact, the only quarter to which we attached a special kind of writer that says we recommend to the highway department because they will make the decision on that quarter when we make a recommendation that light rail be part of the program 35W its reconstruction. They're DOD has approximately a year and a half to make that decision and I would suggest that those who share that position with me express that to to their public policy makers but the fact is that free light rail is being considered as an alternative in certain freeway quarters. You can't do it right now because there's too many obstructions with Bridges and with with the traffic itself. I wish we could spot a quarter past the hour move on to her. Listen to the question here. Mike ehrlichman is listening you're on now. (00:13:31) Hello, this is Jim Stein worth and I'm calling with a couple points here. I'll make them quite brief one is is as Mike has a said on the air here. The public has demonstrated through the poles. It does want some form of LRT is the public aware. That is the are LRT plant stands right now that in the initial phases of it. Most of it a majority of it or in the second phase will end up out in Hennepin and possibly Hennepin having a jump on the East Metro as far as development and the other issue. I'd like to see Mike discuss his own there was also in their book here a note of the regional rail road authorities aggressively should seek private participation in the funding of LRT, particularly the transit stations and this relating more or less to say White Bear Lake or other communities that are pretty much cut off from the initial first couple phases and they should be aware that they can play a part and putting money towards this and advancing the plants sooner to their communities. (00:14:38) All right, Mike response to these two concerns. I was listening what first on whether whether all I know Alliance, we all understand that the if I can repeat two things, I think Kind of describe to the listening audience hears. First of all, what real quickly what's light rail. I some people do mistake. It isn't a street car and it's not, you know, New York Subway system. It is a it's a vehicle that is larger than a streetcar. We loaded a platform. It operates most of the time on an exclusive right away. In other words cars don't drive over the tracks you have stations. You have many fewer stops Than A Streetcar and most of the system is on the surface as opposed to underground it quickly then in terms of our plan. We've divided the plan into three segments or four segments roughly with group a which is the system that I described earlier connecting the two downtown's the tunnel and the Arts and shops second is what we call Group B now, each of these quarters we intend to fund on a first ready system. In other words. They're all ranked. The same level because of the eccentricities of each quarter. In other words determining alignment doing the studies getting Municipal approvals was one may be ready before another so to rank them, you know one through five would be an error because 5 may be ready before one and we've all did we the board has determined that they all have a regional priority now of those lines the breakdown is one line first line, of course is the Midway quarter of which almost two-thirds or more than that 3/4 does serve predominantly Ramsey County st. Paul Just A short segment of the quarter itself is in Minneapolis. That would be the first then you have What's called the Northeast Corridor which goes from Northeast Minneapolis then up into Anoka County term. In north town, then you have the Northwest quarter, which is goes from North Minneapolis our downtown to North Minneapolis up in the Brooklyn Park. It's 63rd. Then you have the South Saint or South 35W quarter which proceeds down 35W and eventually over into Dakota County. Then you have What's called the Hiawatha quarter which Cooks in with ultimately airport down Hiawatha Avenue to the airport. Then you have the South st. Paul Corridor which goes from downtown st. Paul in 235 are across into Dakota County through South st. Paul then in group C you have to st. Paul quarters to Ramsey County Coroner's extending North and a South West Corridor in Hennepin County extending out through the southwest suburbs. Those three the rest are in the plan father down. Now when the decision to put these quarters in the plant and it to identify this was predicated. And a the criteria for ridership that was developed and which was agreed to by in fact the entire Regional Transit board unanimously and the Metro Council unanimously, it wasn't arbitrary and the fact is that the corridors I've just described have the highest potential ridership with the lowest per Rider cost to the community and while it would I would love to see light rail, you know, 15 quarters extended into all parts of the metro area. We have to be appropriate and responsible stewards of public resources and you have to go with those quarters that demonstrate the potential greatest ridership. For instance. The Midway quarter is by far represents the greatest ridership, so they're so that became a high priority. There were those in Hennepin County. Who were Disturbed at that was chosen as the first priority because they felt and it is true in many respects the Hiawatha quarter looking to the airport is farther along in terms of planning as far as whether the caller suggested that maybe local communities can have some impact on whether or not these on the order in which these are done. That's a real confusing issue. I think to a lot of people and what private participation means generally speaking what the Metro Council was referring to there. There's a term called super TurnKey or TurnKey. In other words the people if you decide as a governmental agency that you're going to have private developers involved in the development and in in a serpent TurnKey the actual running they own inner on the light rail system you their interest is based partly on the ability to take the right away. That isn't used for light rail. And develop that in other words to they can build a hotel or you know, who knows an amusement park, you know along the line or build apartment buildings. Unfortunately, one of the in some communities have done that in fact right now, there's a major commuter line in Florida going to be built between Miami and Orlando which was just announced which will be funded almost completely. In fact, I think entirely out of private because what they do is they've given them the development right? We don't really have the property around the station plus that property will be controlled in terms of what you do with it with each municipality. So that's not going to work here. Probably there. We may be able to in certain sites. We may be able to you know, defray some of the costs a for a station based on what you could do around the given station. I don't see a significant application of it in this community. Okay. Let's - More folks with questions here about 20 past the hour and you're on now with Mike ehrlichman. Thanks for waiting. (00:21:10) Yes. I wonder maybe I didn't understand this correctly in his opening statement. He said that they're proposing an additional 1% sales tax and they seven County area half of which would go to apparently build and construct the LRT and the balance of it for Highway construction Highway Maintenance read to mean and that sort of thing. I thought we were already paying that through gasoline taxes. (00:21:39) That's a good question. You certainly are paying for for road projects through a lot of different taxes right now, but what we're proposing is that We have a one cent sales tax. And while we haven't worked out the exact numbers roughly. We perceive that one half of it would be used for Transit purposes including Light Rail and that the other half be broken down in fund the following types of programs County Roads. Not not State highways were in other words our counties throughout the metro area. That won't see the development of Light Rail for decades. If in fact ever yet, they will be contributing as you know, there are taxpayers will be paying for this system. So the idea is that they have a County Road they need to develop and they that road would be otherwise built out of County revenue. Well that we figured well we can they can apply for funding for that in the same respect. The municipality needs to improve or pay for a street in rather than simply taxing only that County's tax payers. They They have access to the revenue from a seven-county metro area likewise. There are a number of people on the board including myself who believe that that trail systems have never had a permanent expect, you know expectable if I can join my own word source of funding in a sense of projecting what they can do down the road and we have a community here, which is expressed a great deal interest in Trails be they horseback Trails be they running trails snowmobile trails across country. In addition. There are a number of Parkways that like the Great River Road or Parkways down along the Minnesota River any of them that we see as potential funding sources for communities. These These are usually in other words what it would be projects that would normally be funded only at that local level. But rather than for those communities that aren't going to see anything out of Light Rail for quite some time. What evidence is there? That light rail Transit is really needed in this area and will be any more effective any more widely used than the bus system. Well again, that's that's a that's a critical question. I guess number one. You never going to get statistics that are empirical that you can say. Absolutely this many people are going to ride it. There is there's risk and there's guesswork. So what you do is first of all look around you and anybody who who has to drive during rush hour, I think can recognize the deed that while our traffic situation is tolerable right now in most cases some places intolerable is approaching and there may be people who argue with me that it's intolerable now, But we we at six percent more traffic every year. On our roads in the metro area. It doesn't take long to figure out that our road system is not going to be able to handle 6% more traffic without potentially facing gridlock. And these systems do take quite some time to build. So that number one congestion just simply anticipating dealing with existing congestion. And this is one alternative dealing with that as well as anticipating what is going to happen environment without question cars pollute and we're screwing up our atmosphere in our love affair with the automobile has been a real expensive. One over the years and I mean you can't dig up the soil in a parking lot or in a playground in this town without finding an unacceptable LED content in the soil and freeways. Your choice is build more freeways or build some form of mass transit. And I think that the days are building freeways or over there too expensive environmentally economically and culturally they cut up our community will people write them are not experienced. It other communities have had across the country by and large have been that the figures that they predicated construction on. We're exceeded once the systems were built. In other words. They had more Riders than they base the economics of the system on their couple of exceptions, but overwhelmingly the number of riders system. I was just at recently in San Diego. Pays a hundred percent for itself now. We don't anticipate that that the fare box will pay for the system, but we anticipate that the fare box will pay more the system than buses. Do presently micro document is with us chairman of the regional transit Board of talking about Regional Transit issues today focusing mostly on right Light Rail, but of course there is the bus system in there other things to move on to some other folks with questions here. Thanks for waiting. You're on (00:26:53) this is Steve Johnson, and I've ridden the bus for about 20 years and only speaking. I think it's worked out great except for to go from one Community to another Community. You have to go to downtown, Minneapolis. That it takes quite a while like maybe two hours to get from Mountain to Bloomington for an example. (00:27:16) So you wonder if there's a possibility of running some of these bus routes from suburb to suburb instead of writing and through downtown. (00:27:21) Right? Why aren't there some inner connecting lines? I know this is a reason why a lot of people that I've talked to don't like to ride the bus. (00:27:29) Hey Mike, that's eyed boy. I tell you it's somebody must be out there writing spreading the question side because these are the questions that we faced the regional transit board. The issue that you're bringing up is probably the number one issue. We're dealing with right now to Regional Transit board, I think because Light Rail is kind of a romantic sexy kind of issue I end up talking about that more than the other systems, but the fact is light rail does not occupy that much of our staffs time right now. We're in the process of planning and running a major transit system, which is predicated on buses. And the issue that you're addressing is something that we're just learning. I mean, which frankly I started in August and and transportation is no longer just simply something you pick up in the suburbs and take downtown a lot of jobs demand that people move from suburb to suburb move around within a suburb and what we are what we're doing right now and they concentrated effort. The regional transit board is working with all the communities in the metro area. We've created Transportation Planning districts, which are groups of homogeneous communities within the metro area groups of suburbs, you know in some like Brookdale. Yep, Brooklyn Center Brooklyn Park Crystal Robbinsdale built around, you know, Brookdale and that what we're doing is asking them to look at that and say, okay, how do you need to transport people in that grouping and that area? We can't just look at Transit any Our spokes on a wheel we have to look at it in circles concentric circles. Frankly. That's one of the reasons that that light rail ties in. So well, if you see light rails the spokes in our Express buses at the spokes and then kind of put bowties along those spokes. We call them circulators. We have developed them. We have one in Roseville right now, which is that Northeast Suburban that North Suburban area in Ramsey County worked very very, well. It's about now it's been an operation about 12 months and we're in the process of developing those throughout the metro area to take into account the questions that this gentleman offered that hopefully will be the future Transit and dealing with issues like reverse commute getting people to jobs who live in the city but need to get the jobs in the suburbs. And what do you see as a timeframe for getting this part of the bus system about Jade around Kind of an evolutionary process in other words. We right now we just adopted or we just identified these Transit planning districts why I came in in August when the first things we did was ask that each municipality a point and there's a hundred and eighty seven of them appoint a Transit lays on now, there's about 50 suburbs that have concentrated populations, but we've asked each one appointed Transit liaison and that then we get these lays ons together in Regional areas and we sit down we start planning for their transportation needs what will result in what has resulted is the like the Roseville circulator right now. We just funded a study one of the studies we just funded was for in this can happen. This can work in the city to the Uptown area. Everybody knows what a traffic mess. That is it is, you know heat thinking about having to go through that intersection the end up in the lake. That's where you're not headed and that we have to find some solutions. So the possibility so there's an organization set up there called a transportation management organization, which is planning and they may come up with a circulator for that Community to run along Lake Street to feed into that area and feed out provide transportation for jobs. You may have a system linking Bloomington Eden Prairie Richfield. They're all right. Now in the process of being developed, let's move on to our next listener. Thanks. You're on the air now with my chronic. When what's your question? (00:31:39) I'm from out of the Twin Cities area down here Winona, and I was wondering in his opening remarks. He mentioned the state paying I believe it was one third of the cost of this Metro System. I'm wondering why people from outside the area to be served should have to help pay for a system like this. And the other thing I guess that bothers me about the I'm at all is the fact that the systems that were in place the streetcar systems, we can thank our friends at General Motors and Firestone and I believe this was a major oil company that put the kibosh to the standard standard was in Shell. Okay our shell. Yeah both both of them and if they were three I think and they they were fined $1 because of the conspiracy that they entered into to kill the rail systems in you know, all over the major cities in the United States. Maybe we should turn to those people and say you've profited from the motor systems and from the highways that we have paid for all these years. Maybe you should pay for our light (00:32:52) rail. Well, first of all, those people who were ridiculed back in the fifties, when they they scream conspiracy have been since Vindicated they were called flaky back in those days, but we have learned that indeed. There was a conspiracy between the between General Motors. Firestone is indicated. I believe it's should be careful here, but there was a conspiracy between certain automobile manufacturers certain oil companies and certain tire manufacturers to to destroy the railroad infrastructure the transit rail infrastructure and they accomplished that it was removed in nearly every city in the country while Europe maintain there's we destroyed ours but unfortunately our Lobby in Washington is probably not we have one guy part-time and I have a feeling our lobby may not be up to quite the part that The oil automobile and rubber industry is but I sure liked it to see a tax of that system. It was one other. Yeah, the first part of his question is why should people outside the metro area help? Hey, that's pretty that's a system. It's a good question and one that will be debated and our plan does not our suggestion is don't rely heavily on state funding. That's a potential proposal. Our first priority is to have it funded predominantly by metro area and local however, our plan does say the state. In parts of it is anticipated to pay for some of the system and I think it's like any other major project the infrastructure project. The question is could be answered. Do we only pay for those services that specifically serve our personal needs fact is a great many people depend the economy of this stage is build on the infrastructure of the metro area in terms of transporting goods. If you're if you're a farmer Southeastern Southwestern Minnesota, you have to depend on the price your goods and the ease by which or the cost the transporting those goods to and from market and that market will generally finds itself being communicated transported through the Twin Cities or actually here. So the road system is part of A total State infrastructure, whether it's here in Winona. There are many people who feel very strongly. In fact, I talked to one legislator who believes that the entire system should be paid for by the state because it's a regional resource like an airport or because it serves moving people within the metro area and within the high-density metro area and that serves the purposes of people throughout the state. It's a legitimate discussion. I do think that the poll that was taken and then the only part that really surprised me was that 58 percent of the people Statewide believe that the state should have a significant role in paying for the system. In fact in rural Minnesota the Star Tribune poll indicates that forty seven to forty two percent in favor people in rural Minnesota. These are communities without towns above. I think they 3,000 4,000 believed they should be taxed for the system. Okay, let's move on to another caller here who's been waiting. You're on the air now with Mike ehrlichman. What would you like to know? (00:36:38) Well, my observations are these have been associated with Minneapolis and the time of the streetcars and I thought they did a great job grew up in South Bend, Indiana and the South Shore electric Railway. What kept it going. So long were all the football games at Notre Dame, but I happened to be in Munich when they were getting ready for the Olympics and very costly building of an underground system. I happened to be in Tokyo when they were very costly building their underground system because they had gridlock and I drove in Rome, but I would never drive in Tokyo because of the sheer. Just not paying attention to other people that it was just taking your life in your (00:37:33) hands since (00:37:34) true the business of the over and under system like Washington has and it was easy to get from where I was staying with friends in Bethesda to the downtown area where the meeting was held but I never felt that I was in Washington because I didn't see the surroundings their Central Area seems to be underground then they come up above ground when they get further out. I think that an over-and-under system where you could move people around in the congested Central areas of the Twin Cities and then go above ground when you get further out might be more effective and if we don't do it soon, it's only going to be more expensive. (00:38:23) That's very good explanation the problem and I think the tunnel is Our kind of a critical issue in the discussion of of Light Rail Transit. And now we are at the point where every agency seems to agree that we should build a tunnel from the river to the convention center in at least that much now we're talking about bringing six lines in to downtown Minneapolis and you know, potentially six quarters and that's a lot of track one mistake. I think that some people make and even policyholders when they look at the tunnel issue is they see that even with the first phase that we're going to remove those exclusive. We won't need the exclusive bus lanes when we build the first phase of Light Rail because the plan if it go if it were to go on the surface, which I think we don't have to worry about now, but if it were to go on the surface, it would run down Second Avenue and Marquette on those same lanes that we now dedicate two buses. Well, the regional transit board would have to The City of Minneapolis to identify two additional lanes for buses because we will only remove a few we would remove the expresses on 94 but none of the others and they constitute a fractional number of the total Express buses. We have running in Downtown Minneapolis or the total number of buses period And even with the completion of the system, there will still be needs for buses to move downtown because not everybody should or will be served by Light Rail. I think that you know, there are three different ways of digging the tunnel and it's real hard to say. Okay that's system in Washington cost so much of the one in La gah so much and then kind of lay that over the Twin Cities. We have a unique geology unlike almost anywhere in the world this downtown sits over what's called a Jordan Limestone Basin you can take a hydraulic hose just water high-pressure water and dig a tunnel. And right now today they're digging tunnels under Minneapolis and st. Paul. We have tens of miles of tunnels right now. We use them for Wastewater use them for storm sewers. These tunnels are big enough to drive a train through and it's funny how we can spend the money to dig a tunnel to run Wastewater through but we don't we there was a lot of people felt we couldn't spend the money to run a train through and the fact is is take a city like Washington that's a cut and cover. It's all swamp. You got to dig a trench hold up all your utilities and then build a tunnel in LA or San Francisco the Bay Area it's all granted. They had to Dynamite it, you know every foot and the blast so that you have very both of those systems are very expensive to build. So be pretty cheap to do a tunnel here comparatively speaking it certainly it's more expensive than laying track on a on a on a on the street. Yeah, but not nearly as expensive as place on the place in the country and I think as the gentleman indicated and And why I had real question about not doing the full length of the tunnel right away the longer you wait, the more expensive it's going to get it's just you know, that's a everybody knows that particularly when you're thinking about buying a car then going to get cheaper next year Regional Transit board chairman. Mike Harlequin is with us as we talk about Transit issues today and a lot of folks in the line with questions. We'll go to you now. Hello there (00:41:53) sir. You've talked about the one percent increase in sales tax that would half of that percent would go to mass transit or Transit Transit. Whatever you also mentioned in your opening dialogue about increase in property taxes. Would that be Statewide? Would that be in the seven metro area and how much would it be? (00:42:16) First of all you wouldn't have both a sales tax and property tax the way our plan reads is that we are proposing is our first funding source major funding Source is a sales tax in the event that we don't get that at least right away. The alternative was to use an existing property tax that the regional transit board currently has for instance right now those buses you see downtown. Those are purchased. Our Fleet is purchased and replaced the entire fleet on a tenure basis. We sell bonds. We just sold 17 million dollars in bonds to pay for the before placing 200 buses roughly 20% of the fleet. We just ordered those buses. We would use that tax. We're required to go to the legislature to get approval for individual Bond sales. The tax is just a straight property tax and your Levy that tax now there'd be a slight increase how much would depend on how much the legislature authorized us to how? How many millions of dollars in bonds they authorized us to sell 300 million dollars in bonds would take approximately I think around 30 million in property taxes annually or 30 million to retire on an annual. Well, not an annual on protracted basis, but Thirty million dollars worth of property taxes the to retire those over the life of the bonds. Now the I can't tell you how much on an individual home for instance. I do have the figures in the office. I don't have them available to me and I that's you know, that's something that's not easy for me to remember but particular we don't know what figure we're talking about and believe me, they'll be lots of debate on it when the time comes and especially during an election year. They'll no question. Yep. The t word is not something I like to yeah, you know except for that. I think of an idea is a good you good idea. In an election year, I you know, I frankly it should be a good idea in the lectionary least. It's good time to talk about it. Let's take another question here. Thanks for calling. You're on the air with micro Lichtman (00:44:39) now. Yeah, thank you. I have two questions. The first one I'd like to know is why is the first choice for financing the light rail once again a sales tax which which is the most regressive form of Taxation in the most burdensome on the poor and middle class. The second question is was any consideration given to a progressive Metropolitan income tax based on the ability to pay (00:45:09) good question. I why was it a sales tax and not a payroll tax or some other progressive tax? I guess, you know as my personal feeling of the gentleman's right? It's not a progressive tax. And I guess there's an old equation those who who like laws and sausages should never see how either are made and sales tax because that's what these groups could agree to there was lots of discussion about a payroll tax. There was discussion of a gas tax property tax fiscal disparities tax just about any kind of tax. You can imagine there was some support for mental palate and payroll tax. Unfortunately not enough to make it the choice in politics government is a matter of compromise and majority and I guess maybe personally I might personally feel more comfortable with with a payroll tax because it does recognize it is that one tax that recognizes one's ability to pay and but just like the whole debate centered around social security tax. It's the majority prevails and sales tax was identified as the fairest among those taxes that were possible. Alright fair enough answer. Let's move on to your question. Now. My Kirkman is listening. What do you want to know? (00:46:38) Well what I'd like to know Fare costed a subsidized and the regular fare. Also. I'd like to know. Do we get a chance to vote on this thing is going to be shoved down our throats. (00:46:58) Well to answer your first question. What's it? What does it cost? Right now? We have a we have a kind of a rule at the regional transit board. We have over 40 vendors that provide. Excuse me. I'm sorry. I have the Minnesota plague here. We have a policy for all of our vendors including the MTC of a minimum 35% fare recovery. That's what we operate at. That's our goal. And that's what we said is a minimum and that's all that we recover in other words 65% of all the bus rides in the metro area are paid for out of some form of tax either state or local. So the fare box only brings in 35% 35% and frankly that's better than most communities in the country. Is it? Yeah, we're we're probably on the average five to ten percent higher than most committee. Our metropolitan areas in the country and make a stab make a stab at what you think that there might be to ride this transit system here from the fares will be presumably identical to an equivalently distance bus trip. Okay. So 75 cents 50 Cent's and it will be you know, transfers will be in other words. You're right a bus because it LRT should not be seen as the Panacea to all transit problems. It should be recognized as a part of a family of services and I can not be too corny just like Rideshare, you know carpooling high-occupancy vehicle Lanes Express buses circulators and Light Rail in fixed-route. It's all a part of a family services fare box recovery will never pay for a system. It's only going to pay we're anticipating maybe me 45% We know that historically Light Rail has a higher fare box recovery than any other system. The fairs we anticipate will be structured just like buses and that you'll be able to transfer between types of maybe a Dial-A-Ride system in Eden Prairie to to the light rail rail line running South West so that it would be integrated into that system and the fare structure second question is would they vote on it you do you will every time you go and vote in the election you're voting a lot of issues in Minnesota. Our Constitution doesn't recognize initiative and referendum as an estate in California. We don't have it on any issue. The only time you vote on a fiscal appropriation in the state of Minnesota is not a school bond referendum or I referendum the only crime I recall it in the metro area was on a special bond in building. I mean in in outside the school bond Issues on building these what's called a center facility in the early 70s to build the Hennepin County Medical Center and the facility that link that facility with Metropolitan Medical Center and but by and large, no, there is no vote the polls say that 68 percent of the people living in the metro area believed that their tax money should be used to fund to build a system. Okay, let's move on to the question here. You're on with Mike ehrlichman. (00:50:31) Hello. Good afternoon. Where you calling from? I'm calling from Rochester Minnesota. All right. I'm calling to suggest mr. Alexander that you you and your agency. First of all become serious about bus transit in Minneapolis. It's fine to talk about in and out of downtown areas for commuters and and really supporting the business Community but a good Transit Agency. Is a 24 hour a day proposition. It isn't hourly service to South Minneapolis on Saturdays and less frequently on Sundays. It is a 20-minute off-peak service on your most busy line. The number 16. It's service that is regular and predictable and on time and then you get people in the habit of using public transit not only to get in and out of work but all the time and then they can get along with only one car or heaven forbid in Minneapolis no cars. And when you look at a city like Miami and contrast it with a city like Chicago you can see that very phenomena play itself out every day a brand new transit system in Miami that really takes no one anywhere and Chicago with in older system with newer editions. That really works very well. (00:51:41) Okay, improve the bus system. Thank you. Okay, I you know, I I don't know if the gentleman was able to hear some remarks I made earlier in the program. But as I indicated before obviously our staff most of the time is dedicated toward developing. The bus system and our board is only been in existence since August and and I think we have developed some real exciting initiatives in terms of improving bus service and just the way the gentleman who spoke addressed recognizing inter and intra Suburban needs reverse commute. We've set up Transit management organizations. Now in the last six months throughout the metro area. I think we're building a system. It's real exciting and that will really address the future needs don't you think you could do this light rail Transit accomplish the goals of the light rail transit system with lots more buses running more frequently at higher speed fewer stops. Those kinds of things. Well, there's I suppose if you had enough buses that you could pick everybody up at their door, you know, you might yeah, but this is no tears. No no people know if I believe that if I believed it, and I thought it was cheaper. I wouldn't be supporting Light Rail. I know you won't number one is first of all buses pollute and we have to remember that from the get-go number two is there's a great many people who just won't get out of their car and get into a bus number three buses have limitations. They got to stop they don't run on tracks that can you don't have to interface with traffic and the three is it's not hard to pick out today some of the buses and may not be running on time because inclement weather affects buses we happen. It's just the same reasons for the tunnel. You know, I somebody said why build a tunnel well, when you live in a community where it can get 30 below and 60 below wind chills two feet of snow. That in itself is a pretty darn good reason for putting in underground where you can same thing with bosses. They get you know, they slipped in the snow they Tied up in traffic and they pollute not to say they're not an important part of our system and frankly will always be probably the largest part of our system and but together with light rail good feeder system could circulators. We can recognize a future Transportation needs of this community and build a first class system. We're down to five minutes already. Let's take a couple more questions here than we have to move on. Thank you for waiting around here with Mike ehrlichman. (00:54:18) Oh, yes. I'm calling from Minneapolis. My question concerns the existing Rail lines that are already converge on the City of Minneapolis. And st. Paul. Why can't we can't use them? There are looking at the state highway map in the back on the Minneapolis st. Paul and surrounding County area. There are long lines coming in. (00:54:39) Well, we're sort of right back to where we began. That was the last question. I was one of the first ones that was asked and it's probably this time the program a good time to remind people because again, that's a question. Jim that everybody asks and I asked and the reason you can't use them right now is there's a lots of them most of them are predominantly Freight roots and we're never used for passengers and Freight roots are constructed in a different way. They don't accommodate The Swinging left and right nobody cares. If a freight car doesn't give you a smooth ride. You can't operate vehicles on those tracks at any decent speed because they're not built for that. They're built for Freight traffic or if they're built for it were originally built for passenger traffic. They've now been used for Freight traffic and they're in disrepair essentially all you can do and what we are doing is a matter of fact is a choir the right away when it's abandoned and then tear the bed down and build it back up and it would be nice if we could just put a car on there and start going but it just hasn't worked out that way. All right, let's take One more question here for micro eloquent. Thank you for waiting around here now. Hello. (00:55:53) Yeah. Hello. I think it's important to state that this estimated cost of 300 million is based on nineteen eighty eight dollars. So that in fact, you're probably already off by 10 percent sixty million dollars off and every year that goes along the the increase gets larger and larger to pay for this. You're probably looking at a two percent sales tax now based on taxes as a percentage of income Minneapolis is the second most expensive city in the country. Did you do any studies to see what kind of impact a sales tax of 829 % is going to have in Minneapolis and thus the rest of the metro area (00:56:28) First of all, it is not a two percent sales tax. So 1% and never will be a two percent sales tax because they're if anything you would use more of the revenue from the one sent to to pay for for light rail, but it you couldn't build the system fast enough to use four hundred million dollars a year. In other words. You can't go that fast. You can't plan that fast. You can't construct that fast. So I'll never be a need in this community for a two percent sales tax. We call this tax will only exist as long as the need for it exists. Other words to retire the bond. So we saw eventually you will capitalize your system operations. This will not pay for operations of Light Rail. It will be it will simply part of the revenue from this tax will pay for the capitalization in the construction of the system. In other words the cars in the tracks the shops Mike with about a half a minute left. When do you think that first part would actually be done? Let's say the legislature approved it they authorize the sales tax that you want start beginning construction when we actually ride the trains well colleague of mine John Deere. So I think has been on this show or at least a lot of others talking about it and and truly probably the fellow they kept the argument in front of us long enough to to make a decision on it has said that if you know right now it's political decisions and that if everything everybody who said now and agreed on the same thing, heck we could start. You know this thing with in months, okay, but I anticipate frankly that that construction could begin on this system within a year and a year and a half Ramsey is proposed to have their alignment done within the year. So a year and a half we could begin construction and start writing it into two three. Okay. Well, thank you very much Mike ehrlichman. Very interesting to have you on visit with us. Thank you light rail and other Transit issues today micro eloquent is Chairman of the regional transit board major funding for Minnesota public radio programming is provided by 3M maker of Scotchgard brand protectors. That's midday. This is Bob Potter.