(00:00:00) It's Labor Day weekend. And so it seemed like it would make some sense to talk a little labor history with Professor High Berman from the University of Minnesota. Professor welcomes. Nice to have you on the air. (00:00:09) Well, it's good to be here and looks like it's almost an annual event this Labor Day round up with labor (00:00:15) history. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Well, it's it's interesting and I think it gives us some some connection both with a past and with what's going on right now and so on. I've got a lot of questions about Labor history in Minnesota and and to begin with one of the very simplest ones that I'm sure you probably think is so basic that it doesn't even are asking but what's the story about the L in the dfl (00:00:37) party? Well, of course L stands for labor obviously and it originated in the farmer labor party, which was formed right after World War one as a response on the part of workers and Farmers to the inability of both the Republican and Democratic parties to With issues of concern to both of these interest groups came about also as a consequence of the war and post-war that's World War one now war and post-war repression the first Red Scare as it's called which took on characteristics of of trying to destroy any kind of collective bargaining advances that were made prior to the first world war during the first world war on the part of the labor movement. It was decided to move into a political phase together with of course collective bargaining and Trade union phase it was moderately successful in the 20s in electing to Senators number of congressmen. And of course reached a peak of success during the Great Depression with the Olsen and Benson Administration, but of course acted as a kind of of a hindrance to the development of any kind of progressive Or liberal successes at the election after 1940s and as a consequence the merger of the democratic and former Labour party's was was actually carried out in 1944 mainly to assure that Minnesota would throw its electoral votes to Franklin Roosevelt in his fourth move for a presidency the fourth term. So so in other words the merger of the democratic and former Labour party's puts the L into the deity of L. (00:02:35) So there actually were three political parties in Minnesota back up until the mid 40s the Democrats to Republicans in the farmer-labor (00:02:43) off of the three major ones Emanuel. Yes, and of course the farmer labor party was probably the first or the second of the major parties. The Democratic party was poor (00:02:52) Third only was yes, and and the Republicans were (00:02:55) Republicans were the dominant party after 1938 after the stash. Victory over Benson in the 38 election. (00:03:03) Now, I didn't really think that there was all that much labor organizing that went on before the 1930s, but apparently there (00:03:10) was no yes, the the labor movement in Minnesota was fairly vital fairly active and fairly successful in certain segments of the labor force and the labor economy in the construction trades The Building Trades Transportation. Mainly it was not very successful in the production area until after the 1930s, but there is a long historical tradition of worker organization in Minnesota that goes back to the territorial years actually to the you know into the first years of statehood and this organizational activity was in fact a kind of combination of both collective bargaining strike action and political (00:03:59) activity. Do you see any historical parallels between what's happening right now with the Boise Cascade expansion plan up and up in International Falls and what has happened in history? (00:04:10) Well, the Boise Cascade situation is of course the just the latest manifestation of almost a decade and a half Trend at trying to reverse the policy of collective bargaining and Union organization as a fundamental principle reasonable reasonable means of worker management resolution of conflict. It's an effort really a trying to go back to the pre nineteen thirty-five days, which it seems to me is wrong headed in terms of the people who wanted to do that because it may be in the short term a term beneficial to them. But in the long term it is not its For it really at trying to reduce and if not destroy the whole process of Union organizing and Union recognition or collective (00:05:11) bargaining Professor High. Berman is with us labor historian from the University of Minnesota today. And if you have a question for him about Labor history and Minnesota or current events in labor in Minnesota, you can give us a call in the Twin Cities area. The number is two two seven six thousand 2276 thousand outside the Minneapolis st. Paul area one 865 to 9700 those of you in the surrounding states can call us directly at area code 612 2276 thousand and we can expand the scope of this to one other area. That's even a little bit beyond this because Professor Berman's just back from how long was it in Poland six weeks six weeks in Poland as part of the Fulbright program. We had a chance to study what was going on over there and in a most exciting time. It (00:05:57) was a very exciting time it was of course. Time of major transition from a centralized quasi dictatorial system to a more pluralistic political system. It was really a very exciting time (00:06:12) in and a time in Poland when the labor union went from being outlawed to one of their people actually taking over his (00:06:18) print exactly and of course the time of transition when solidarity which was of course a labor movement transformed itself into a political movement. So it was a very very interesting time. (00:06:31) Well, there's a lot of things on the table today. So if you have a question or a comment for Professor Berman why give us a call to to 76 thousand in Minneapolis st. Paul first caller is on the line. Go ahead, please. Yes. I'd like to know the history of when the eight hour day 40 Hour Week became law about the time in America I did and whether that's a pretty well worldwide law or only in America that that's the case and also before that. How did people that had to work? Got 16 hour days ever have time to repair their houses and do all the things that people now do in their leisure time, especially on weekends because I understand before the 40-hour week people had to work right through Saturdays and must have been pretty impressive especially in factory jobs. I'll hang up and listen to your answer. (00:07:17) Well, first of all as to the question of fact, the fair labor standards Act of 1938. In fact was the one of the last of the New Deal measures was the law that set in place the 40-hour workweek with time-and-a-half for overtime and with a minimum wage as well. It was 25 cents an hour then of course this was of course in in occupations that were engaged in interstate commerce and the fair labor standards Act of 1938 was actually a model that was followed later by other states by states that is in making it a Universal are uniform kind of of standard for workers now the question as to whether this is just an American law. Yes. It is an American law, I guess fortunately or unfortunately depending on one's point of view Congress of the United States cannot legislate for the rest of the world. However, it is in fact a fundamental standard throughout the Civilized world that is to say the fort of the 40-hour week or perhaps even less than that is a standard throughout the Civilized World minimum wage is also a an accepted principle in Western industrialized societies. Now the other question the other question what did people do in their Leisure Time in their leisure time before the 40-hour week, they slept because that was the only time the only thing they had going for As far as time to repair homes who had homes they lived in Hubble's or they lived in in single rooms. The 16-hour day was not unusual and it didn't only have to work through Saturdays but also through Sunday as late as the 1920s in the steel industry the 12-hour day with a every two week 24 hour shift was a standard a standard and not an an aberration a 24-hour day. Yes, because you know, it's not fair to work a 12-hour shift and morning shift for one group night shift for another group. So when the switch of course they put on a 24-hour shift know so no, I we're not that far away from the conditions of physical exploitation that existed in the labor force among workers. We're not that far. Whe--where 50 60 years away from that. (00:10:02) Hmm. Now you said that the 40-hour week is pretty much standard worldwide, but I thought over in Japan that was typical for 48 hours a week. (00:10:09) Well more Japan the limitations of the workweek are of course based upon some kind of private personal almost familial kind of relationship that exists between the corporations or unions of the workers. It's more true. What you say for those on salaried positions than on assembly line positions, but the 48-hour when I when I said it's uniform not the 40-hour but the cyst the the concept of limitation of the workweek is a uniform it that the 40-hour week is the law in the United States. It could be 48 hours in Japan. It could be 35 hours and other countries, but there is the principle of some Maximum Location of the work week with over time being compensated at a bonus payment. Sure. Next question for (00:11:09) Professor Hyman Berman. Go ahead. You're on the air with him. Good morning. I have a question. I'd like to ask you that I'm going to hang up and listen to your answer. We make a great deal of noise about the unions and Poland are President, especially back from a hundred percent. But yet he does nothing at all to back to unions in the United States such as Eastern Airlines or anybody else for that matter of fact that happens to be in trouble. It's just it's just a lot of lip service like we gave hungry when we asked them to go out and free themselves and become independent and then when they did we left him hang out on the wash. I'll hang up sir. And listen to your answer (00:11:43) not quite I think there is a legitimate kind of positive attitude towards independent Trade union organization in communist countries notice what I said in communist countries, not only Bush but Reagan Thatcher and others a have, in fact been almost ecstatically enthusiastic about solidarity yet at the same time. We're doing what they could to destroy independent trade unionism in their own countries Thatcher, certainly known for that Reagan certainly. Don't that even though he was originally a president of the union and Bush also what we have here is of course a political a kind of of concern we will support trade unionism when it destabilizes communist societies. We will not support trade unionism if it interferes in the free market mechanisms of our own greed driven Society. (00:12:54) Well, do you think that it might to put a slightly (00:12:59) I was putting it. (00:12:59) Wrong you were putting a stronger. Yes. Do you think that it might be more related to the desire for a free market kind of economy and to to make people a little bit more free. I mean that there's a system of freedom in the United States and Britain. (00:13:14) Yeah, but if we're going to be consistent in a free market economy in Poland would also dictate the end of any kind of trade unionism. (00:13:23) Well, except there a there are they were a political (00:13:26) force over there. Of course, of course, that's exactly my point. It's more a political that I than a Trade union or an ideological concern (00:13:34) concern. Well does the union do the Union's do the same thing there that they do in this country mean do they engage in collective bargaining (00:13:41) or well obviously, no, they don't do collective bargaining as we understand it with with written agreements and things like that with collective bargaining agreements. But this of course is the objective of Trade union movement like the solidarity it was of course the objective because it was also a an opposition Trade Union to the official Trade union, which certainly did not work towards improving the lot of their members in a direct confrontational way now, so certainly that's not the case. But the point is that that if in fact Poland and other East Bloc countries do move into a more pluralistic Kind of system, even if they retain the concept of democratic socialism as a fundamental basis of their socio-political economic system at that point the Trade union movement solidarity or whatever. It may be will in fact have a crucial role to play in in a collective bargaining sense. Now, this certainly isn't ruled out by the ideology of Communism. In fact in the 1920s early 1920s. There was a big debate in the Soviet Union as to whether or not the trade unions should have an independent collective bargaining approach and many in the early communist leaders argued for that as a kind of a balance to the political centralism, but Lenin and Trotsky argued against and there was a the kind of Trade union crisis of 1921-22 which Dictated the kind of model that followed that was followed by trade unionism in communist societies ever since now being broken by the events in Eastern Europe. (00:15:34) It's about 25 minutes past the art Professor High Berman from the University of Minnesota's with us. We're talking labor history and labor issues generally today on Labor Day weekend. We have some folks on the line. Our lines are open as well some of them to 276 thousand in the Twin Cities 2276 thousand for Minneapolis st. Paul area callers one 865 297004 those of you outside Minneapolis st. Paul your next where you calling from, please I'm calling from Duluth. Yes, sir. In the I think the 1920s in North Dakota. The farm labor movement was was so strong that a socialist governor and a number of state legislators were elected and I was wondering how how much of that spilled over into Minnesota. (00:16:27) First of all it wasn't in the 1920s. It was just before the first world war nineteen fifteen sixteen and it lasted into the 20s to some extent and it wasn't socialist you see in order for socialist to get elected in the United States. They can't run a socialist socialist. The dirty word was a dirty word then it's a dirty word. Now the what developed and North Dakota was a nonpartisan League approach that is to say the Socialists reformers, whatever you want to call them felt that the way to achieve any kind of political success was to move To the major political party in North Dakota. That was the Republican party and try to capture the Republican Party through a primary system which they did and as a matter of fact, you're right a number of socialists not identified as such did in fact take over government control of North Dakota and the success of the nonpartisan League approach was in fact followed in Minnesota or attempted to be followed in Minnesota and the nonpartisan League concept. We did in fact come into Minnesota about 1916. Now the reason that in Minnesota, they went to an independent political party was because the non partisan approach was thwarted in the primary of 19 that night in the Republican primary 1918 when Charles Lindbergh senior the son of The Aviator running against the governor burn. Question the primary a veritable rain of terror a kind of vigilante movement organized by the public safety commission and by the Law and Order societies by the those who were fearful of the anti-war activists at the time carried on a undemocratic anti-democratic reign of terror against a nonpartisan league and against the supporters of Burnquist. And the feeling was that in Minnesota the non partisan approach. It was not going to work and as a consequence, they moved into a farmer labor political approach, (00:18:47) which is where we began the discussion where we began the discussion, right? Very interesting that the good ol Days had plenty of violence and strife associated with oh, absolutely. We start sort of look back on those as being idyllic times in a way, but I'm not so (00:18:59) sure. That's right or not. Idyllic. (00:19:02) Next question from you, please go ahead. Where you calling from. I'm kind of Movement disorder and I am the Widow of a man who worked with the AFL-CIO Center everybody in Duluth for a good many years and my husband was instrumental at the time that they were merging the AFL in the CIO together as a unit and then they called it the Duluth labor Community Center and the people that were involved in labor at that time. We're very much involved with a lot of things that are going on right right around the time of the war and before the war and after there was a great deal of Communism spread in the United States through the steel mills and my husband was working at the steel plant and I can remember fearing when he was supporting a party who was going to be our mayor and the city being threatened their to my husband wouldn't get I got the phone call at home that my husband would not get home if he supported their man who was going into office which was a frightening thing for a wife to get when he was going on the air. Down at the radio station that just shows you how terribly up when an upheaval it was within the family of a union person at that time because of the Communist element somebody brought up in it something else such as for how the people would have time to work on their homes if they were involved 16 18 20 hours a day in a job. I'll tell you what they did with the u.s. Deal. They built homes in a whole community and Morgan Park and the workers who lived in Morgan Park had all their grass cut for them. The windows painted the windows change the property was taken care of by their the Steel Corporation and they didn't have to do anything. Yep. Okay, (00:20:47) y'all well what you're saying is absolutely true there that there was a tremendous amount of repression and of even Terror used against those who seem to be threatening the status quo whether they were threatening the status quo from a position on the political. Left or whether they were threatening it through attempting to organize workers for simple Democratic rights (00:21:13) our next question for Professor High Berman from you. Go ahead please where you calling from you're calling from well, we have a lot to lose today. Go ahead, please. I very much want to belong to a union so long to it, but I don't believe you can discriminate against persons to be independent and whatever non-union. I think it's coming more and more to the non-union in this age of information or we must have Excellence. All right Cybermen a comment on (00:22:25) this very simple. Yeah. So I agree with you to that that in our society. It's absolutely necessary to have a balance between management and labor and that balance must be in fact has to be maintained and historically was maintained only when workers had the right to organize and bargain collectively. Otherwise you have of course the the dictatorship of the powerful now as far as working side-by-side, I too agree that that's a freedom of choice is absolute absolutely essential, unfortunately historically and in right-to-work States, what we've seen is not the freedom to choice but the the absence of freedom of choice the existence of an open shop mentality in a sense does not in fact allow for the union and non-union people to work together, but essentially what happens is that a particular workplace becomes completely non union and Union workers are in fact discriminated against and kept out that's been the historical kind of practice over time until we've had collective bargaining and forced by law that enabled in fact a democratic process of choice to be take to take place. (00:23:47) It seems in in recent years that labor unions have lost membership organizing drives and not (00:23:54) so much membership. They've lost the sheer of the labor (00:23:58) force. Okay, and they have lost organizing drives. There. Was that effort to organize the people down at that Nissan plant and exactly know where it was somewhere in the South part of Tennessee. Yeah, and and so you begin to wonder I mean is there the need for the old type of Labor organizing that there has been in the past or does it need to evolve and change as as as times (00:24:19) change there's no question that it has to evolve and change. Nothing can stay the way it has been. Raise the question. In fact that is a major question that confronts the labor movement today how in fact can the labor movement react to and adjust to the changing nature of work in American society. How can a change and react and adjust to the changing nature of of ownership in American society? It hasn't successfully coped with this yet. Very simply with your point about the decline of the influence of Labor is seen in the statistical information in the late 50s and early 60s some one-third of the labor force in the United States was organized today. It's 17 percent now in numbers that hasn't been a tremendous down of downfall because the numbers have remained stable, but the labor force has grown fairly largely and one of the reasons for that. Not the only but one of the reasons for that is the the change in the nature of work, they mentioned before the labor movement has been historically and traditionally strong in the production area and in construction production transportation, and these are the areas that are in fact becoming decreasingly important in an American economy. You see whereas Information Services of various kinds have become increasingly important and people in these areas, although they are em sit themselves workers don't consider themselves workers in a way and this is a hard nut to crack as far as Union influence concerned what we'll do it. I think we'll be in fact the arrogance of greed on the part of some Management's let me put I'm not I'm not trying to make a blanket kind of Of accusation, but the the arrogance of greed which in fact is now a accepted feature of our society, you know greed is no longer a dirty word in our society. Of course when greed goes too far with an Ivan boesky, then it is but I think that is what will probably change things. Let's move on to some more folks with questions. (00:26:50) We have a full phone Bank of people waiting and you're next. Hello Professor Bromans listening. Thank you. I have two short questions. I think earlier you mentioned the phrase trade unionism and I am wondering if you meant that literally or perfect was to you were just speaking and not meaning to exclude some of the government unions. (00:27:14) Oh, absolutely. I thought that that should certainly trade unionism. I was using generically rather than exclusively (00:27:22) in the second is I'm just wondering if you could comment a little bit about what Sometimes perceived as some of the reaction the reactionary nature of especially here at the trade unions and the perception that they inhibit access to some of the higher paying jobs, especially in the Building Trades. (00:27:42) That's a good question. Now one of the traditional functions of Trade unions going back to the 19th century has been in fact to maintain or to try to maintain control of the job market and one way of controlling the job market is of course limiting access and certainly that has been a feature of Trade union history and uncertainly as has been a feature of Trade union history has been criticized by internally from within the labor movement and externally and that feature of trade unionism still exists. Of course. All right, we'll move on to our next caller. Go ahead, please you're on the (00:28:22) air. Yeah. Good morning. Mr. Potter professor Berman. Good morning. Enjoy. Professor Broman all time in the segments on Almanac to thank you buddy. Ask you a two-part question and perhaps you could help me because I don't want to end up like the congressman in the early 50s who allegedly leaned over his colleague during the floor debate and said, you know, I never really understood the taft-hartley act and his colleague responded. Don't worry about it. Hardly never understood either unions representing government workers. Now the same time you have something called a Hatch Act and I think about a year ago. I read a very interesting op-ed thing. I think within them the apples paper written by a government employee who's member of Union explaining why they felt it was very well thought out and calm not screaming hollering why they out of throw up a check. Could you clarify for me? If briefly as you can see what the Hatch Act prevents government employees from doing an second part of the question is what is The general attitude of the government the Union's of government employees about the Hatch Act. Do they also feel as this individual member did that it should be thrown (00:29:35) out. Well the Hatch Act very very quickly verb for very it's a very complex question you asked but the Hatch Act very simply is an act that prohibits government employees from directly participating in the political process period and of course directly indirectly, perhaps they can but directly now the precinct caucus no, no, no Precinct caucus but by directly participating is by actually going being a candidate for public office and being an active participant in that regard. (00:30:09) What's the reason for that was the historic? (00:30:11) Oh the historic reason for that was of course the fear that this would be a way in which there would be undue influence made by government by politicians to control the Session prevent, you know access to the process. The Hatch Act was in response to certain scandals that occurred in the I think of the late 30s. And in any case it was something that that that came up at the time. It's not really rigorously enforced that They Hatch Act and I don't think that that that the government employee unions either on the state local level or the federal level. And by the way, the Hatch Act only applies to federal employees not the state and local employees that they are that much concerned about it. They have other priorities at this point. (00:31:10) Do you see any likelihood? It would be repealed or modified? No is just kind of sitting there and doesn't make that much difference from where the other all right 20 minutes before the hour and will continue now with your question for Professor Broman. Go ahead, please hi. I've got two quick questions for mr. Berman. First of all, I just wondered if you could speak to the history of Industrial workers of the world in Minnesota, right and second of all, could you tell me whether or not you know if mr. Farrell Dobbs who wrote the book aims to have a billion is still alive and I'll hang up and listen. (00:31:39) I've got the second question is easy to answer. No he he died from some years ago. As far as the iww industrial workers of the world concerned. It had a very very important role that it played in Minnesota as immobilizer of immigrant industrial workers who were in fact excluded from the Trade union movement because of the craft basis of organization and the early part of the 20th century. It had a strong support base among the ethnic groups particularly in the northern Minnesota fins. It had a strong support base among the agricultural field hands. The agricultural workers organizations national headquarters was in fact, Minneapolis on Washington and Hennepin when Washington Hennepin was still known as Skid Row, they the iww was a significant force in Minnesota labor in a kind of transitory moment of the pre-World War one period (00:32:51) and then it pretty much faded from the scene after that (00:32:53) and then if no, it didn't fade from the scene. It was it was the major Target of repression during World War 1 and after hmm the government arrested all of 146 of its leaders many of whom were from Minnesota put them on trial for Espionage and Sedition and Chicago the leader of the iww Big Bill Haywood went to Exile into the Soviet Union and 1920 rather than going to Jo but effectively it was destroyed by this repression and by the emergence of the communist movement. (00:33:34) Did they think they were spying for the Germans (00:33:35) during World? Oh no. No, no. No. We're that the Espionage Act was not necessarily what you think spying for the Germans anyone who criticized any federal government official anyone who spoke against the draft anyone who claimed that the first world war was a war for the rich being fought by the poor was subject to prosecution and to imprisonment under the Espionage Act. (00:34:04) Okay. Well we could go on about that. But let's move on to your question, please for Professor Berman. Who are you calling from? Hello? Yeah. Where are you calling from please Minnesota again. Yeah. Okay, and I worked in Florida for a while never know unions down there and I just read an article on paper the other day about the lack of skilled Tradesmen and Florida. Could there be an association? In between that and the fact that unions also Run The Apprentice program and in a way protect the consumers because they do try to keep up the quality of the Craftsman represented by the unions. And with the it seems that the mechanical work on aircraft has gone downhill in the last few months or into that have anything to do with something that's changed in the union relationship with the with the airlines. There's been a lot of aircraft disasters associate mechanical work. I was just wondering if it could be an association there. (00:35:00) Okay. Well, first of all as far as the the the relationship between an open shop and a union environment and the limitation if of skilled Craftsmen perhaps there is a relationship remember that the skilled Craftsmen have traditionally been the ones who were most highly organized and most successfully organized. The the question as to the decline of the quality and quality control in aircraft industry. I can't comment on that. I don't think that that is in fact accurate. I think most of the tragedies that we've seen in the last year or so have been the result of other than failure of Maintenance. But if there is a failure of Maintenance, it's essentially in those areas where in fact the pressure is have been greatest to do work quicker. In other words. We're in fact, the the union environment has been fact been eroded Eastern Airlines. I understand was under tremendous amount of criticism by the federal agencies for that before the strike and so on and so forth. (00:36:24) Moving on Professor High Berman is with us labor historian from University of Minnesota at Labor Day weekend. We're talking about Labor history and current labor events and so on and so forth. You're next. Where you calling from. Good morning. I'm calling from st. Cloud and I just turned on the show. I might have missed this part, but I wonder if the professor would comment on the as it may relate to the Boise project lies. The my question the attitude our position that union workers or Union companies have any more entitlement to projects be they private or public then then Union entities when much evidence suggests that union labor is more expensive and correspondingly that in many cases. There's no evidence that that non-union work is any less in terms of its quality non-union work projects already Less in their quality, then then the quality of work performed by Union personnel. And that mentality that seems to exist at if you're a union person or Union entity you somehow have a Birthright to these to these jobs. (00:37:31) That is not absolutely absolutely not true. It's in fact, the opposite is true. If you look at the at the actual situation in the United States, the the existence of union workers is in fact a burden a definite burden because in fact the union worker does in fact Place restrictions on the freedom of management to do shoddy work or to exploit now as far as far as as the birthright is concerned, there is no Birthright the right of workers to organize and bargain collectively is in fact a right that is guaranteed by the laws of the United States in the laws of state of Minnesota that does not However, prevent others from trying to prevent them for organizing that also is part of the freedom in our society. Now what occurs in what has occurred historically and this is the point I think that has to be kept in mind is that historically it's not been the union worker and the union job that has been the privilege but the non-union or the anti union job has been the privilege and union workers have been the most discriminated against job discriminations after all it's it's easier for Management's to to deal with non-union workers. They don't have to deal with with any kind of organized system of controls on them. And as a consequence, it's the opposite is the case if in fact union workers are to keep any kind of of control over. Our destiny it is necessary for them to maintain a union environment and in the existing situation that is very very difficult. (00:39:37) And as relates to Boise Cascade specifically there people who come up from the south or willing to work for the work at those jobs for a little less than the union people want and the union people have given them a lot of (00:39:49) grief. Of course what you have there, of course is not only people coming up from the South but they're recruited from the south by the the main contractor that's building the extension up there. And of course, you know, the situation up and International Falls is a very classical situation and it's interesting that it is also a wildcat strike that is to say it is not a strike that is authorized by the by the union or the union structure, but it is Classical confrontation seems to me and it seems that that it will in fact eventually lead to perhaps a erosion even further of Union (00:40:36) strength. Why shouldn't the person who's willing to work for a little less be allowed to do so, though. (00:40:41) Oh, we should be all why shouldn't he be allowed to do. So the Supreme Court of the United States said when it rejected any kind of legislation dealing with limitation of the right of children to work said that this would interfere in the freedom of contract of children and obviously children should have the right to work to shouldn't they (00:41:05) that's carrying it a little (00:41:06) high a lot. Of course. I'm carrying it to a ridiculous conclusion, but then the Supreme Court did back at the beginning of the 20th century what I'm saying here, is that the right of individuals to undercut Standards of other individuals is a freedom that they have the right of those who do not wish to be undercut to protest that and to try to prevent that is also a right that has to be recognized (00:41:36) we've got about nine minutes left with Professor Berman. Let's move on to some other issues and some other concerns your on go ahead. What's your question? Good morning early union leaders had a desire to educate union members to how they might improve themselves in ways that couldn't be simply accomplished by legislation. It seems to me that this is something that has been lost from the union movement. I would assert that the last union leader who cared about that was Walter Reuther. Hmm, and it seems to me that this is an a major reason why some of the individuals no longer have a strong regard for their unions as they once did. I'd be interested Professor broom and in your comments on that (00:42:23) I would agree with you 100% on that. I think that that in the kind of anxiety to deal with day-to-day with the ongoing problems of Union management and Union management relations. The labor movement has in fact in the last 40 50 years actually really lost sight of the fact that it has an educational function that it must in fact engage and remember that that labor education was considered an integral part of the labor movement in from the period of 1915 to about 1935. But after that it was Labor education became a function of universities and once it becomes a function of universities the labor movement gives up the concept of Of education and I think you're right that this is one of the major reasons for the kinds of of decline or for the massive decline in both a knowledge and in sympathy for workers self-organization that we find in our society. (00:43:41) More questions for Professor Berman here as we come down near the end. Hello. You're on the air with him. Yes. Hello. Perhaps you've already dealt with this in an earlier question, but not so long ago. I was on the faculty of the local very business-oriented private college and one of the courses I taught was business French which involved some consideration of French unions in order to do this. We had to talk a little bit about American unions and I founded the American Kids didn't even recognize the initials AFL-CIO and as well as they didn't even really see the Union's as mmm.