(00:00:01) Air Travelers have reason for concern on several fronts these days ranging from airport security to aging aircraft in the airplane maintenance Minnesota's 8th District dfl Congressman. Jim Oberstar is in a position to know a good deal about these safety issues and possibly even to do something about them as he is Chairman of the house Aviation subcommittee which holds continuing hearings on Safety and Security matters. Congressman welcome is nice to have you in studios. Well, thank you very much. It's a pleasure to join Minnesota Public Radio. Let me ask you briefly about the Northwest Airlines item that was in the news today. For those of you who may have just tuned in. The trading was halted in Northwest stock briefly this morning. The price went up sharply amid an announcement by the company that some unidentified group of investors is interested in pursuing some sort of discussion about a possible takeover. Let me ask you Congressman Oberstar if you think the traveling public would be well served or ill-served by a takeover of Northwest it would depend on who that take over. Artist is if this is a group of investors representing a competing Airline. I think that would be detrimental because it would tend to further concentrate economic power in the airline industry and reduce competition. If it is a group of investors who are well-heeled and have money to invest in Airline expansion and development and modernization continuing the upgrading of the Northwest Fleet that has already been started under. Mr. Rothmeyer, then it could be a beneficial step. But if on the other hand if it is a group who are interested only in financial short-term Financial acquisition to skim off the profits and run to some other investment that could weaken Northwest Airlines at a very critical time. When they're increasing their debt to net worth ratio in order to acquire modern aircraft and be a stronger competitive both both in the domestic air service business and as an international competitor, so it's hard to say who who these until we know who these communities Financial interests are. Well, let's let's move to the topic of safety, which I know is one of the things that you are keenly interested in as well as as airport security. It does seem that we read about an awful lot of incidents that happened aboard airliners something happens in a plane is forced to go back and make some kind of a so-called emergency landing. Nobody's hurt. Everything turns out to be okay, but there seem to be an awful lot of reports like this. You think it's that there are actually more of these sorts of incidents are we just more aware of them or are they being reported more frequently? There are somewhat more of such incidents. They are being reported as they Were in the past but they're receiving increasing public attention and increasing prominence from the news media who are covering Aviation with greater intensity than in years past. I think that that all of the incidents combined tend to get lumped into one image in the public mind safety is one issue security is another but when the top rips off Aloha Airlines and a piece of Easterns hauled comes apart and Pan Am aircraft is blown up in the skies people don't tend not to make distinctions. They tend to lump those all together into one image and something is terribly amiss comes to be the final judgment. I'm I must say that having conducted intensive hearings over the past four years on both Safety and Security that safety is improving and security is starting to improve it's getting better and it's bound to improve because of heightened awareness by the airline's airport operators the FAA our intelligence agencies all combined and by the efforts of Congress so we can discuss various aspects of illness as you as you choose, right? Let's open the phone lines here and give those of you who are listening a chance to visit with Congressman Oberstar about these Safety and Security questions to to 76 thousand is the number in Minneapolis st. Paul to to 76 thousand in the Twin Cities that line is open right now and there are opportunities for you to get on the air in other parts of Minnesota. The toll-free number is 1-800-695-1418 652 9700 and outside the state of Minnesota call us directly at area code 612 2276 thousand. I think we've got our first caller all set to go. You're on the air with Congressman Oberstar. (00:05:18) Thank you Congressman. This is not a question on safety or what have you but I run a small computer Consulting business here in the Twin Cities area. I've got to fly a lot and in the past couple of years since Northwest bought out Republic. It is amazing what's happened to the prices? It's become it's just amazing that they've been allowed to raise their prices so much. What can you do about? Making Northwest make introducing some competitive pressure into this Market. It's just ridiculous about what's happening to ticket prices. (00:05:53) You're signing a very important issue of concern to me as chairman of the aviation subcommittee. And I think a matter that should be of great concern to the are traveling public and that is increasing concentration of economic power in the airline industry. If you will bear with me a moment to discuss just a brief briefly generally how we got to where we are and then the Northwest situation in 1978 the Congress passed legislation to deregulate the airline industry. It was the same year in which Congress deregulated the bus industry and trucking was a great year of deregulation moving to the free market era in transportation and to removing obstacles to Three and two competitive pricing in the first three or four years after deregulation. There were 22 new entrants into Aviation major carriers nation and Nationwide carriers, not just local or Regional or commuters then started the wave of mergers and Acquisitions you had however in that first for five years a virtual explosion of competitiveness in availability of seats availability of fairs improved service numbers of cities served that previously were not served by Major carriers, but then came ten major mergers and Acquisitions in the number of new entrants was reduced to five in their original form. We now have probably eight to ten carriers you might consider to be National Carriers in the process. Aim, the merger of Northwest and Republic Airlines. The result was the new carrier controlled 81% of the Employments and Minneapolis st. Paul 81% in Detroit 70-plus percent in Memphis. You had the same situation with TWA and its acquisition of competition and its Major Market areas creating what we now call the phenomenon of single carrier dominated hubs. They concept of hub-and-spoke service was a product of deregulation of the inventive mind of the airlines to have feeder operations from smaller communities such as International Falls Thief River Bemidji Brainerd Hibbing having Chisholm Fairmont other places to feed passengers into Single Hub where a major carrier would operate Duluth being the exception in Greater, Minnesota as having continued major carrier service the same phenomenon occurred elsewhere around the United States. So mergers and Acquisitions, then posed a new threat to the are traveling public as are as competition in air service was decreased. It was envisioned. However in the deregulation act that both the Department of Justice and the Department of Transportation in overseeing deregulation would act to prevent concentration of economic power and preserve competition by vigorously asserting antitrust Authority the justice department. In fact did not intervene in a single case did not stop a single merger mergers have now reduced competition and as a result fairs are increasing What about the situation in Minneapolis st. Paul Detroit Memphis st. Louis elsewhere a preliminary review by the general Accounting Office last year indicated that fairs in the st. Louis Market have risen disproportionately to fairs elsewhere in the United States. I have commissioned a study by the general Accounting Office of all single carrier dominated hubs throughout the United States to discern Trends patterns and pricing differentials throughout the country. We want to compare single carrier hubs with multi-carrier hubs. We want to compare rate of increase of fairs in single carrier dominated hubs to rate of increase in of other Commodities other products in the canoe covered by the Consumer Price Index. We want to see whether airline fares are rising faster than the CPI and if that Increase is due to lack of competition. And when that report is completed, which I expect to have some time early summer. I will hold open public hearings on the matter of deregulation and fairs in in the airline industry and their impact on the traveling public. My sense is that in certain markets elected Market areas. The public is losing the benefits at least one of the major benefits of deregulation and that is lower fares while they still do have some increased service opportunities. So it can you can you envision any ways of getting more competition out at when I think problem today is of entry into markets is greater than it was in 1978. And of course Reserve complete judgment on that matter until we've had all the Facts provided by this GAO study, but the car Alfred Khan who is the The Economist known as the father of deregulation said in 1978. This could not happen one carrier could not dominate a market because if fairs got too high another carrier simply would come into that market challenge that carry with lower fares and take away some of that market but Alfred con nor Congress envisioned they hub-and-spoke system. It becomes very difficult for American Airlines to challenge Northwest for example in the Minneapolis st. Paul Marketplace because American does not have a Beyond network does not have unless they're willing to dig deep into their pockets finance a competitor for Northwest airlink move into the smaller communities pick up those fairs Channel them into the Twin Cities and then hopefully walk off with a larger piece of the That scenario played out by mr. Khan has not worked the other half of the scenario that we all trusted did not occur either in that is vigorous antitrust enforcement by the justice department. It's about a quarter after the hour as we continue with Congressman James Oberstar a topic is airport security and airplane safety your next little (00:13:06) there. Yes. Thank you. I have a specific question here in that. I've got a three-week business trip coming up to Europe next week and given the current climate both politically and in terms of Airline safety two-part question. What's happening that Congressman Oberstar can tell us in terms of reassurance as we launch on these trips. And secondly, is there anything specifically the individual traveler can do well there (00:13:35) there isn't much that the individual traveler can do to improve security. I think you're in the hands of air. Fourth security providers Airline security providers are National and international intelligence agencies. But in response to the first part of your question, I say that I can't predict no one can predict where State supported terrorism will strike next but I can say that wherever it attempts to strike next will be countered with a very substantially heightened state of alert by airport operators Airlines and the US and foreign intelligence and security provider agencies in short. I think it's safer now to travel than it was prior to Lockerbie, but it needs to be made much safer last week late last week. There was a an FAA memos or bulletins or something that was It wasn't supposed to be made public but it was a warning about a possible attempted hijacking attempt by somebody or another over the over the Easter recess Easter weekend in Europe is that the sort of thing that should be disclosed to the public? And if not, why not? First of all that I'm very familiar with that situation. I have the obscene read analyze the memo we discussed it in an executive session of my Aviation subcommittee with the responsible federal government agency Personnel. I can say this much publicly only part of the memo was released. It was not simply a memo was it was a an FAA security bulletins notification promptly issued by the Federal Aviation Administration security operations upon receiving as intelligence about a possible attempt. Terrorist attempt against an American Carrier somewhere in Europe. And as soon as such information is received and evaluated as being valid it is then circulated by the FAA to other state department to other federal government agencies such as the state department. Our defense intelligence operations are CIA operations overseas and to foreign intelligence gathering agencies to alert them to the information enlist their support in gathering corroborative information and more details about such possible attempts on airports or Airlines. It is not as was reported. A dual standard operation that is an alert to US Government Personnel Diplomat or military. And that is one of the most unfortunate aspects of the release of that information. It was released by as we know now and airline company person who released publicly only part of the memo and our part of the bulletin I should say that the information was not specific as to Easter weekend yet. The impression was given that the attempt was to be made over Easter weekend. It was not specific as to Airline or type of bombing to be carried out or geographic location. So it lacked a number of the specifics the threat did and that was why the security bulletins was circulated was to alert our operatives overseas to this. (00:17:32) Right (00:17:33) and to enlist their support and Gathering more specific information about it. Now when a threat is received and threat evaluation is undertaken by our operators are state department and FAA all the others. I've listed earlier and the threat is evaluated to be credible and specific and unpreventable. Then the the appropriate Airline. It should be notified and the passengers notified and vastly stepped up security steps taken to prevent the the occurrence that has been done in the past on rare occasions, but it can that kind of information. Should be made public under those circumstances that I've listed, but if you were to Simply release as was done in the in the instant case that we just discussed fragmentary information about a threat against some American Airline, then you would be playing into the hands of terrorists who really want to shut down American overseas airline operations, if the terrorists achieves his goal by blowing up the aircraft or shutting down u.s. Competition in International Air Service, they've achieved their objective. It makes no difference to the terrorists because this is State supported terrorism not random Grudge wielding terrorists, but people who are financed by by an international entity or a Sovereignty let's move on to our next question for Congressman Jim Oberstar. Thank you for waiting. You're on the air now. (00:19:37) Yes. Hello. I'm Congressman James Oberstar. Good afternoon. I'm Dave dahlquist. I've had the privilege of talking to you a number of times regarding Coast Guard stations on Lake Superior and so on you may (00:19:49) remember. Yes sir. I surely (00:19:50) do what I'm asking about is the altitude recording transponder problem. We fly out of the Twin Cities in our own jet prop frequently and at least half the time we were told by Minneapolis flight control something like traffic at 11 o'clock southbound altitude unknown. So we searched the sky very very hard and PR, i--'s is ours we can and and rarely do we find the aircraft to see their above or below us or in some Haze or clouds. It is at least unnerving. It certainly causes a lot of tension and I guess I believe the commercial jet passengers knew that this was going on about half the time of Ever The Jets going in and out of the city here. There would be public outcry understand that there is a law that's going to require altitude recording transponders soon. Can you tell me what's going to be happening? And when (00:20:44) I thank you very much for your inquiry. That is a matter of some great concern the action to require altitude encoding Transporters or as they are known mode C transponder, 's aboard small aircraft and traffic collision avoidance systems T casts as it is popularly known aboard commercial airliners resulted largely from hearings. I conducted over a period of three years on near midair collisions and the safety in the air traffic control system. The FAA was about to move to order tea Casa board commercial airliners when Congress frustrated with the slow movement of the FAA. a enacted legislation requiring TKS aboard commercial airliners but TKS alone is insufficient there have to be mode C transponder zaboor add small aircraft that operate in major traffic control areas such as the Minneapolis st. Paul Airport operations area and the FAA has issued a rulemaking requiring TKS aboard commercial airliners and is also rounding out its action on traffic realignment of traffic control areas throughout the United States to set new boundaries within which all aircraft must have mode C transponder, 's and that the the progress toward achieving the goals of T cash and mode c will be the subject of subcommittee hearings. I'll conduct probably latter part of May or early June you have a you have a guess in mind is to win it might actually all happen. Oh, it's a beginning to take shape already the T casts equipment of course has been available for quite some time. It has now been in extensive testing in actual commercial airliner use for more than a year. In fact more like two or three years and Piedmont was the first airlines to actually test T casting commercial operations. It has been proven to be very very effective very successful. But you need both parts if the airliner has this device which let me simplify in explaining this to those who are not Aeronautics experts TKS is simply a device that alerts a commercial airliner. Or it's operator to the presence of another aircraft within dangerous limits and alerts that pilot to to look for this aircraft and tells them where it is and to Advanced versions of TKS may even move the aircraft away from the Intruder, but that device can't tell you a thing. If there isn't a mode C transponder that constantly monitors altitude and emits a signal picked up by T Cass indicating where that other aircraft is is located. All right, 25 minutes past the hour and you're on next with Jim Oberstar. Go ahead, (00:24:15) please. Yes, you know, there's I guess as you get going there's so many things that you bring to mind. But when you talk about see mode sees mode Sees at the present time, I believe are being put in light aircraft in Numbers also to operate in the terminal controlled areas you're required to have mode sees now. So the ones that do not have mode seeds these are not operating in those areas as at this point and I say that I know they're being put in and record numbers because I am involved in the light aircraft end of the business and we do sell those so we do know that the general aviation aircraft are really responding and doing very well at that particular end of the safety and (00:25:11) you have a you have another specific question or was that was that basically (00:25:13) it well know the specific question is when the items of competition are controlled as you said by The Hub system isn't one of the reasons that you're having trouble with people trying Enter that market now that if you try and competes against Northwest Airlines, first of all for a small carrier or a smaller operation no matter what size equipment they were going to use to compete with Northwest. They have to intrude both into the computer systems and Northwest has a capacity because of the spread of their operation to lower the price on a specific segment that you would try to compete with them on. (00:26:00) Okay. I think we're right. Okay. Yes, you've touched another aspect of the of the airline competition issue that I anticipated somebody would bring up and that is the computer reservation systems that are another key to success in an airline competition. I already discussed the Hub and spoke. I don't think we want to recover that ground, but it is it does cause A competitor potential competitor pause to think about trying to establish. They Network Beyond The Hub necessary to bring the passengers into that Hub to Be an Effective competitor, but even more significant is the computer reservation system that are that most Airlines have to provide them their their passengers and they world's largest computer system right now saber operated and owned by American Airlines has just been merged with Delta into what would be the the world's even largest computer reservation system with mints capacity to schedule passengers onto their operations exactly out of concern for that kind of competition Northwest bought into tea. The va's computer reservation system known as pars and have one of the three largest computer reservation system. Why is that important? Because in a hub area travel agents are book vast numbers of flights, you know, probably seen the somebody percentile range of flights booked through travel agents are are hooked into one or another of these computer reservation systems. Now if Northwest has 80% of the of the gates and enplanements in the Minneapolis st. Paul then as has powdermilk biscuits travel agency you want to be hooked into North West's computer reservation system and and let's say t wa wants to be a major competitor in this area. Well, they're going to have a hard time getting their flights listed with with travel agents because there's a penalty for going off that system and you know giving flights away to somebody else. So you got a you got a Bonus by being part of that system as a travel agent and booking flights through Northwest because you're part of North West's computer system. If you call up too many TWA flights. Well, then you lose business and it's not it's it's theoretically possible for for I shouldn't have used TWA because there but let's say it's not possible for American to set up a competing CRS system because the cost is enormous. It's just a huge cost for a very small market share unless you're prepared to commit other resources equipment that is aircraft and and Beyond service into the smaller Regional and commuter markets, so The CRS concentration of economic power through the CRS systems is becoming another major consumer issue that together with Acquisitions in the airline industry is restricting choice for computer for passengers and through the imaginative use of the computer reservation system keeping competition out and I am very greatly concerned about this matter and I think the latest acquisition or merger if you want whatever you want to call it of American and Delta is now under review in specific response to the caller's inquiry by the justice department for its antitrust implications and I am very concerned following very closely. The Justice Department's review this matter. It's not one in which I can. Because this is a Judicial proceeding but this is one whose outcome will be very carefully watched by travel agents my other Airlines and by the and should be watched by The Traveling public if it's approved and and no changes required by Justice Department. This action could trigger yet another round of mergers and Acquisitions is other airlines seek to increase the capacity of their computer reservation systems and and and then again further control fairs and competition in the airline industry. If all of this goes unchecked how many airlines you think we might ultimately get down to wind up with only two or three Airlines in a few years. Let's move on to another listener with a question for Congressman James Oberstar. Go ahead please (00:31:27) I wonder if you would agree with me. News media might be a great deal more helpful than they have been in some of these terroristic things. I'm thinking particularly if the accident over Scotland when we had a great many very fine programs on the are killing it first hands people like McCarter who I very McArdle. I'm very sorry to know that he apparently resigned because of this incident they failed to keep reminding people who would be put on the air as grief-stricken relatives who would say well if we'd only known if the government only told us to go to phone the next day and they paid no attention to the fact that just been explained by the prior person on the program that this was adding a period of two weeks time that the danger had been signaled for. (00:32:21) Okay Congressman a response here. Oh, thank you. You cite a very important matter and in one of very very deep concern to me and that is Premature release of information and the proper balance between the Public's right to know and proper security. Let me correct one impression Alan McCarter former administrator of FAA did not leave or nor was he forced to resign as a result of the Lockerbie incident? Mr. McCarter simply did not fit into the Bush Administration plans for the Department of Transportation on the FAA. They wanted somebody else in there. They did not want an activist of Alum of Carters quality and I think the civil aviation is the loser for it. I think he's one of the finest administrators of a we've ever had and I have great I had great confidence in his ability to serve the traveling public. Unfortunately, the administration didn't see it that way the release of information prematurely about impending. Incidents first can compromise our our intelligence contacts in our intelligence Network overseas. Secondly, you have to understand how specific information must be and the and second the second part of it the inability to counter that threat once it has been evaluated and determined to be credible in the case of Lockerbie. There was the so-called Helsinki caller called sources in Helsinki finish searches as well as the American Embassy and made this threat known it turned out to be a hoax but a lot of tragically coincidental hoax the finished police. I can say this now because we've evaluated this information very very carefully the finished police knew this collar. They tracked him down they Doubt what his sources of information were course. I'm not at Liberty to go further than that. Our us intelligence operatives in Helsinki did the same they determined that the caller was operating independently that the call was a hoax nonetheless, nonetheless our state department and the FAA both issued a security bulletins and advisory to u.s. Embassy personnel and military personnel in Europe to the possibility of something occurring but without specifics and knowing that this incident of this caller was a hoax they could not be could not go much further, you know to say, oh all these people could have been saved If Only They had been told About the about the call but mean you'd be shutting down every American airliner operation in Western Europe just because somebody called and there was the possibility that something might go wrong. The question is how reliable is the intelligence information how effective and and accurate is threat evaluation and third how effective are the counter measures we take against such threats. Now if we may go one step further and other callers will permit me just to further moment. There are explosive detection devices that have been developed which are Marketable and can be put into production on massive scale to detect the very sophisticated types of plastics explosives now in use by state-supported International terrorists. I think it's essential for the United States and cooperation with other governments to put such detection devices in place at the 45 foreign high-risk airports already identified by the International Convention on Aeronautics icao to to counterterrorism. These are devices that such as the TNA the thermal Neutron activation scanning device that sends a beam of neutrons through your luggage which beam can identify positively the explosive should it be in that luggage of this very sophisticated Plastics type in rather small quantities and alert the operator of the device to the presence of an explosive in that luggage. There are other devices. Is that can scan individuals they are vapor detection devices which have already been proven and tested the TNA has been tested extensively at at many airports particularly most recently at Logan Airport in Boston and at nuclear power plants in a different way and I won't go into the technicalities of it. The the vapor detection device has now been perfected down to a six second scan. That's not quite as fast as the magnetometers in use at airports the the metal detection devices, but it's it's perb considering the the type of device that we're looking for and I just think it's vitally important for us to get those detection devices in place at the 45 foreign high-risk airports, and at the High volume high density domestic airports and I have urged the administration release money from the airport trust fund to buy those devices put them in place and offer the traveling public the maximum protection that we have contracted for in buying an airline ticket and paying a ticket tax in which we are entitled to when we step on board an airliner. Let me ask a real brief follow-up in the wilderness or listen to questions look down the road about five or ten years in the United States and tell me what kinds of security precautions you think we're going to have and if the traveling public is going to be delayed or inconvenienced by these there will be depending on the nature of terrorism and the terrorists always seem to be a step ahead of us in going on the offensive. There will have to be some increased type of convenience inconvenience. Excuse. Me, too. The traveling public if we're going to provide the maximum kind of protection that the public demands and has a right to and I think when people know that they may have to arrive an hour before flight time in order to have the proper kind of baggage check they'll do it. If they know that they can arrive safely at their destination now, we're in what I call Phase 2 of terrorism phase one was the period 1969 through 1974-75 when we were experiencing one skyjacking every two weeks. We then instituted on a major scale the magnetometers and and personal hand checking of individuals at airports. In that in the 15 years since 1969 longer actually, we have screened nine and a half billion pieces of luggage nine billion passengers at domestic airports confiscated 41,000 weapons at US airports. Mm a year still made 14 thousand arrests several thousand people are still in prison for violating the Firearms or explosives Rule and we continue that kind of very intense scrutiny. As I said, we're catching about one weapon or explosive device for every 250,000 passengers or pieces of luggage. But we have much higher safety requirements elsewhere in aviation actions taken to improve cabin safety will result in no more than the loss of no more than ten lives in a ten-year period That's a one in 10 million prevention. So I think we need to increase our margin of Safety and Security in airport security provision, but the record has been good not good enough. The FAA has find domestic Airlines four million dollars for failing to live up to the highest standards of this level of security at airports 15 minutes left with Congressman Jim Oberstar. He chairs the aviation subcommittee in the House of Representatives, which is concerned about airport security and Airline safety issues. That's our topic today, and we turn to you for question now, thanks for waiting. Go ahead (00:42:10) please. I have a question and Connection with safety and in crashing and safety the British recently have studied extensively crashes the results of crashes fires within the crashing and have determined that plastic hoods can give passengers a few minutes or few seconds of protection so that they can get out get out of the airplanes the materials that are contained within the cabins are non not fire preventative. Why can't these things be expedited? Why are the carriers permitted to drag their feet and not Implement something which is certainly to the advantage of the passengers as an example. We don't go up in the air without oxygen. We don't go up in the air without seat floats at cetera et cetera. (00:43:11) It's a medical problem. The FAA and the airline's both need a spine transplant. They need some backbone to deal with this issue. You're talking about the need for smoke hoods aboard aircraft that matter was demonstrated very effectively 15 years ago by my predecessors chairman of the investigations and oversight committee Congressman Jim right now Speaker of the House who had hearings on cabin safety and demonstrated in the course of those hearings that a smoke Hood available on aircraft then at a price of a dollar 75 very modest price. Just put it in the seat pocket could give you those extra few seconds of oxygen needed to get off a disabled aircraft in which there is tremendous amount of smoke and acrid fumes from burning Plastics the FAA. Then did not have the will the airline's then did not have the adequate concern for safety to agree to ordering or putting on board voluntarily in case of the airline's smoke hoods Airlines lamely objected that they'd be stolen that would be a huge loss people would keep them for souvenirs and so forth. The FAA said it with the technology hadn't been perfected enough. There are other situations. They lamely tried to complain that such incidents in which a smoke could might be used would be essentially a not survivable accidents nonsense nonsense that ought to be a requirement to have the smoker aboard aircraft and the fact that that we don't have them is as a shame on our on RFA and on the air. Is collectively Nationwide and as chairman of the aviation subcommittee. I'm going to get into cabin safety and and press for such action. Let's move on to another question here. Go ahead, please. Thanks for waiting around with Jim (00:45:28) Oberstar. Now, I'm glad to hear that you're going to look into cabin safety. I'm interested in foreign Airlines what sort of safety precautions they take and if they seem to be as much targeted for terrorist attack as United States and we don't hear about it. I'm going to be flying on an Islamic airline in the next two months and I was just curious as to what safety precautions you may know about with these other airlines. (00:45:54) Foreign airlines are not now the object of terrorist attacks. But as soon as the terrorists can demobilize American carriers, they'll start on foreign carriers as well and do everything they can to chase Americans off Foreign Airlines because of the nature of State supported terrorism and the focus which is United States traveling Americans foreign carriers have varying degrees of security starting with LL as the as the highest and well known as the highest level of security. I think however, you have to remember lol is a state-owned airline does not have to make a profit and has only 20 aircraft. Therefore does not have the high volume of traffic that domestic US carriers have and the The former security provider for chief of security for ELA. I was a witness at my recent hearing on Aviation Security said they LL model does not apply to US carriers, but it's principles do and US carriers increasingly are applying the LL principle to their operations as our foreign carriers. My concern is less with the carrier's though. I am concerned. I want to see vastly increased security measures taken. My principal concern is with airports overseas under airport Security Act passed just two years ago by the Congress which came out of the aviation subcommittee and authored by my predecessor Congressman mineta requires and empowers the FAA to conduct security assessment. Foreign airports and to recommend improvements and such security to foreign governments into those airports and the FAA has now conducted surveys and assessments of a hundred and seven airports overseas. They have made a number of recommendations one of which has not won principally on a systematic basis has not been acted upon by those foreign governments and that is to improve perimeter security security in the in the perimeter Zone around the airport fencing increased surveillance of access to airport operations areas. And those those foreign governments say well listen America, you conduct security the way you want. We'll do it the way we want and then of course it Heathrow you had those three young people who breached security got in through the perimeter got on board an aircraft. For 15 minutes, and then we're discovered well happily, you know, they were discovered and it's a tragedy that occurred in this in this period of increased public and and airport and Airline awareness of the need to be more Vigilant against terrorism. So, you know you I think that US carriers in foreign carriers response to the caller's question have very good security systems and you can travel with with a sense of ease that you know that all has been done in particularly in these coming weeks at all. Humanly possible is being done to make your travel safe and secure. And now your question, please go ahead you're on with Jim (00:49:47) Oberstar turned on my radio. I don't know what this question was asked in his last answer first. I'd like to preface my Question by saying that I'm not going to question the honor or the Integrity of Representative over star if I lived in his area I'd be voting for I've watched his career on the other hand with reference to what happened over England. I I don't think that any amount of explanation or apology or technical technical detail by by Jim or anybody else is going to negate the fact that that plane which usually Flies full flew half half full and the people that weren't on it were the people who had been warned now that's unconscionable. (00:50:41) Okay. Do you want to come in on it? I appreciate your call. And I appreciate your kind words about my public service. Let me correct a gross misrepresentation on a gross misunderstanding there that aircraft was not half full there were not 168 cancellations. There is no double standard other people were not warned not to board that flight. I can tell you that I would be furious and I was Gravely concerned that we had some sort of a double standard in light of news accounts that security bulletin had circulated prior to that flight in that American diplomats an American military personnel were told not to board this aircraft. That is untrue. There is no double standard by the state department by the FAA or by. Our defense operations overseas the misread the misunderstanding and then later misrepresentation of this matter comes from the fact that a security bulletins is issued by the FAA when credible evidence of or indications of of terrorist action against a US carrier has been assessed and should be circulated. It is circulated. The only way that it can be done to our diplomatic and intelligence and Military. Stations overseas to corroborate to gather further information to further verify the available information and collect whatever and additional intelligence may possibly be possible on this particular threat. It is not a circular to American Personnel not to use a particular flight. I have seen and reviewed all of the security advisories issued prior to Lockerbie and I can assure you it was not then and it is not now a double standard operation by the by the US government if it ever were to be I would personally haul them before my committee and pillory them publicly. So let's put that to rest. We are almost to the end of the hour, but we have time for one maybe two more questions and your next total there (00:53:17) a safety concern is Mix between private aircraft commuter and commercial in such diverse places as flying cloud Duluth Peterborough, New Jersey Orange County and LA. (00:53:37) All right, Congressman a response on that matter. Well, the color may not have completed his question. Yes, you're talking about about small smaller aircraft entering into the traffic control area of busy airports. We had quite an extensive discussion about this matter earlier. They general aviation have a right to use the major airports of this country and general aviation aircraft have a right to come into Minneapolis st. Paul as much as they do flying cloud and Crystal and Anoka County Airport and the other Regional airports right around the perimeter of the Twin Cities. They pay their fuel tax. They pay their user fee into the air traffic system. There are more than a quarter million. And private general aviation pilots and aircraft in use throughout the United States. That's a many more than a 30,000 commercial airliners and they're paying their share of the freight. But my counsel to general aviation is you want to fly with the big boys you got to have the equipment that the big boys use and that means having mode C transponder is and none of them. None of the ga general aviation aircraft owners and Pilots that I've talked to has any objection to that. The concern in the Twin Cities area is that fááá's realignment of the traffic control area was so extensive as to impose a burden cost burden upon some of the smaller operators who in good conscience are using those reliever. It's and they're saying look if it's going to cost us this much to operate out of flying cloud or Crystal or Anoka County or home and field or in the others will just go the next step why use the reliever airport. We'll just crowd into Minneapolis st. Paul. I think the and for that reason I interceded in the FAA decision making process in the Twin Cities TC a decision to assure that it that it would not make it burdensome, but on the contrary make it attractive for general aviation aircraft to use those reliever airport and reduce congestion in Minneapolis st. Paul on the same can be said of Teterboro. Same can be said of LAX Los Angeles and and other heavily used airports in the United States congressmen were just about out of time. Let's take one more real quick question here, and then we'll let you run briefly, please. (00:56:33) Okay. Mr. Oberstar. Could you please tell the audience a little bit about fer? 145 how this could mean the loss of thousands of American jobs and also compromised our safety. Thank you (00:56:43) caller has reference to ruling by the FAA permitting Airlines to conduct repairs overseas foreign repair stations as the issue is commonly known and my concern for this issue and I'll be holding hearings on it is that some of the airlines have and and in the future will have used in the future. We'll use such less than reputable repair operators as some located in. Well, let's not name the country said but Central and South American countries where there are no FAA inspectors to determine the the work being done is being conducted according to Federal Aviation standards and that appropriate parts are being used we've had cases in which automobile. It's were used in Airline equipment that's unacceptable or substandard parts are being used. We want to make sure not all foreign repair stations are substandard. There are some that are that meet or exceed us standards, but I want to make sure that all repairs done to American aircraft are done according to us standards and inspected or available for inspection by FAA inspectors to assure and protect the traveling public and also to protect domestic jobs aren't sure at that point. We will let you go. You've got one minute to get to another appointment. Thank you very much. It's been a very enjoyable visit. I hope that the answers long and complicated in some cases, but I believe thorough have helped our public to understand this most exciting field of Aviation. Thanks a lot Congressman Jim Oberstar chairman of the house Aviation subcommittee good. - Gary eichten inviting you to join us later this afternoon for NPR Journal today on the journal will take a closer. Look at how much extra money the legislature will have to spend this year. The new revenue forecast is out also a look at an appeals court libel ruling on what doesn't get published. We'll have those stories and the rest of the local news. We invite you to tune in five o'clock in our music stations 5:30 on our news stations. By the way. The governor is going to recommend that lawmakers Your Mark 50 million of the new revenue for the University of Minnesota. Today's broadcast of midday made possible with financial assistance from the James are Thorpe Foundation. This is Bob Potter speaking.