(00:00:00) The best writers gets concerned that's certainly not true of all administrators. There's some administrators who have been very responsive to parents, but I think one of the things that's happened in this state is that in a couple of cases parents have exercised very good judgment and leaving some schools that aren't particularly good situation in the parents and the administrators of yelled and screamed about it. It's been a lot of publicity for those administrators and sometimes journalists don't it's harder for journalists to find the parents who are concerned Joe Nathan is with us. And if you have a question for him, you can call us in the Twin Cities area at 2276 thousand 2276 thousand in the Twin Cities elsewhere within the state of Minnesota toll-free 1-800 652 nine seven zero zero one eight hundred six five two 9700 in those of you in the surrounding states might be curious about this Choice idea. You can call us directly in the Minneapolis st. Paul area 6122276 thousand Joe Nathan is with us. The phone lines are open now and public education is our topic concerned that practically everybody. Where's Joel? Why is it that parents? Are qualified to choose I mean the school system the people that work in the school system. They are the professionals. They ought to be the ones to know whether a kid ought to be in this type of a class or that type of the school what qualifications do parents have Bob. They're really three explanations first. There is a growing understanding that there's no one best school for all kids just because a youngster is a certain kind of person doesn't mean that that school is going to be any particular school is going to be a great person great place for that youngster and that the evidence for that is for example in our post-secondary options law law that allows 11th and 12th graders in Minnesota to go to colleges and universities. There are some youngsters who had not done particularly well in high school who are doing brilliantly in college the fact is that the traditional High School works very well for some youngsters, but some youngsters are bored or angry or frustrated by the the kinds of rules that there are so the first idea is that there's no one best school for all kids. The second idea is that the best programs of choice of which there are in, It's for example in East Harlem New York, which have resulted in dramatic increases in student achievement and reductions and Dropout rates involve some counseling to help parents make informed decisions because parents certainly do need help in making informed decisions just like parents need informed assistance when they set out to vote or when they go out to buy a car when they make lots of other choices, but this is a society that values Choice Joe. We've got one person on the line with the question. Anyway, let's put you on the air and find out what Joe can tell you. Go ahead, (00:02:33) please. Thank you personally, I think the idea of choices excellent. My only concern is that I have a fifth grader who has already determined that there is a particular high school he would like to attend and how can I be sure that he will be able to enroll in that school when the time (00:02:54) comes you stay on the line, please because we may need to get a couple is this a high school in The District in which you live or is this an out and District other District outside where you live? (00:03:04) Well, I'm not really sure I guess it is a st. Paul school and we live in the st. Paul area ourselves. So I guess it is the same (00:03:12) district. Well, one of the things that st. Paul does try to do is to accommodate parent requests as long as the overall movement doesn't have a negative impact on racial desegregation, which is of course a state rule that the Saint Paul schools have to follow but I think if you contact the School District administration, let your wishes be known. They try very hard to work with families and I'm overall I think the st. Paul's School is one of the districts that try to work closely with parents to respond personal interests. Tell me a little bit about the this issue of racial imbalance is that seems to be the most important Criterion in determining where kids go to school nowadays? Is it Justified Bob in the metropolitan area? We have a good deal of integration within the Minneapolis and st. Paul District personally. Children Elizabeth and David who are 10 years old. David's here with me today go to a st. Paul public school and they go to school with kids of different races and economic backgrounds. And I think that's terrific because I think the world in which Elizabeth David and Laura and the millions of youngsters who are growing up today are going to live in is going to be a multiracial society. Frankly. I think that parents who live in school districts where there's 98 99 % One race have to think carefully about how their children are going to be able to get along with kids of different races and economic backgrounds in the future because that's the world in which they're going to live. We're going to have a business environment in which youngsters from who are growing up now are going to have to learn to sell and work with people from other cultures and races. We're going to have a state that's much more racially diverse. So I think it's very very encouraging that there are lots of plans being put forward now to have kids of different races and economic levels go to go to school together. That's not to say we need to neglect reading and writing and math. Of course, those are important as well. But there are some other things that kids learn in school. So I think it's valuable that for example David Bennett is recommending and the governor is recommending more steps to bring kids of different races and economic levels together. But if but if a st. Paul or Minneapolis inner-city School child wants to go to a different school he or she may not be able to because of the racial desegregation guidelines. Is that fair? It's difficult to say what's fair one of the steps that superintendent Ferrara in Minneapolis is taken which I think is a positive one as is trying to work out a plan where parents can get the first choice of program that they want and Minneapolis is also a district which is offered a variety of different kinds of programs over the years much to the benefit of youngsters in Minneapolis. We do have a whole series of expectations on our schools. We expect schools to teach reading and writing which is valid we expect schools to help kids learn about AIDS and driver's education. Lots of other things. We keep adding more and more things on two schools. Sometimes it seems to me often. It seems to me we need to stop saying do this and do this and do this and say here are a few things you need. You can stop doing since you're doing more and more. But of course, that's one of the reasons to offer choices if we have a few things that we want to make sure all schools can do then we can give some options and say some schools are going to emphasize performing arts and some schools are going to emphasize a fundamental approach and some schools going to emphasize something else, but I Unbalanced it makes sense to encourage schools to have racial diversity and I think parents and suburban and rural areas need to think carefully about how they can go about having kids have more experiences with folks have different races because that's going to be needed for society in the future Joe Nathan senior fellow from the Humphrey Institute is with us today as we talk about choice in the school's his book is called public schools by choice expanding opportunities for parents students and teachers Jose the editor of this book we have phone lines open in the Minneapolis st. Paul area. If you'd like to ask your question two, two seven six thousand is the number two two seven six thousand in the Twin Cities and outside Minneapolis st. Paul. It's one 865 to 9700. All right. Thanks for waiting. Where you calling from (00:07:12) from northern Minnesota. And what's your question? No question, but a comment my daughter decided and we decided that she would participate in the open I mean Post-secondary this and she's a senior in college. No, we're from a small high school and the girl has done beautifully. She's got a 3.79 GPA is a senior. So she was one of the first that went. So I feel that this new program is just beautiful. I am a teacher myself and I realize how administrators are really facing problems with this one, but I do feel that it's excellent for the children (00:07:57) response Joel. Well, I'm delighted to hear that. This is a response that's similar to about 90% of the parents who had children in this law allowing in this program allowing 11th and 12th graders to go to colleges and universities. Minnesota is the first in the country to do that a number of other states have now adopted Colorado and Maine for example have passed laws similar to what Minnesota has done what we found is that more than 10,000 youngsters have now used this law critics were concerned that huge numbers of kids would Of school. It's no more than five percent of the kids who are eligible but equally important Bob high schools all over the state have examined their program because they understand that they no longer have a monopoly on the kids and the number of advanced placement courses for which kids can get both high school and college credit has quadrupled over the last three years the number of high schools in the metropolitan area working cooperatively with University of Minnesota to establish new courses right in the high school for which kids can get high school and college credit has jumped dramatically in Greater Minnesota. A number of high schools have worked cooperatively with state colleges and community colleges to set up new Cooperative programs. It's really stimulated Improvement all over the state and it's nice to see it's nice to hear a parent saying this is really work for her kid. That's what education is supposed to be about first and foremost the education of young people in the state. All right. So folks with questions for Joe Nathan go ahead you are on the air. No. (00:09:14) Well, my concern is the role that the accident of birth brings into all of this because Growing up in what I am later discovered was a very fine school system in South Bend, Indiana. Then I got to college and I found out what the regional graduates from other high schools. And then in the Army and how people got educated in other states. It takes an awful lot of experience to find out that g what you thought was par for the course or standard really was Superior and then the Edina experience of feeling that there were some problems that needed more study before they would participate in the thing that bothers me as a resident of Edina is the tremendous emphasis on Sports and winning. And is that a magnet to pull people from other areas into the Edina school system, which has a represent at least a reputation for (00:10:23) We're a lot of issues there. One of the reasons that I wrote this new book public schools by choice was to talk about the programs in East Harlem New York and in Cambridge, Massachusetts where their extensive parent information programs. I think that the state department has done a fair amount on this. I think it's terrific that we have a Statewide toll-free hotline where parents can get information about schools in a few minutes. I'll give that don't phone number but there is a Statewide toll-free number that people can call to get information about the different programs. We need to do more in Massachusetts. They spent money very wisely. I think state state funds tax funds to set up here and information centers. I think it is valuable for parents to have a greater sense of understanding about what's available in different kinds of schools. And there are bills in this session being considered it give parents more information about what their options are in terms of the Edina situation recently read an article in which a counselor in Edina was cold. And I think was I visited with a number of people in Edina. I think the issue and a dinosaur Larry Diana wants to be able to pick and choose which kids they will they will allow in which the parents don't have the ability to buy a house in Edina. If you have the ability to buy a house in Edina and pay taxes, then obviously you get you to send your children to those Edina schools. But the Edina board has made it clear that they want to be able to pick and choose among kids to make sure that their motives are pure if those families can't afford to live in Edina and I think that's unfortunate. Most other school boards have said sure they'd be delighted to have cross section of kids come in. How do you feel about the issue of kids going to a different School District or a different school for that matter for any reason not just academics but because of sports you because a boyfriend or girlfriend works there because they've got a part-time job nearby and the list goes on sure Bob. There is a bill that's going to be introduced on Monday that will make major changes in the open enrollment law, which actually is just being phased in this fall and the bill says among other things that people would have to stay in one school district for four years, which is remarkable and His last time people were asked to make a four-year commitment on anything. They don't have to make a four-year commitment on on where they're going to work or where they're going to live or what church they're going to go to we don't ask people to make a four-year commitment on on what college they're going to go to. I mean, this is clearly an attempt to wreak open enrollment. But another provision in there says that youngsters must say some kind of academic reason for moving now, we have situations in this state where before open enrollment was discussed or still youngsters were being told by their school board that they could not walk one block to the nearest public school. They had to go 14 and a half miles to the nearest school that was in the district. I think that's an outrageous decision and frankly a poor use of tax money. Why should we spend $700 a year to bus youngster 14 miles when the youngster can walk one block to school. So I think it makes sense to a lot of youngsters to go to the nearest public school as long as that doesn't harm desegregation activities. And in the particular case I'm talking about it did it didn't have an impact on desegregation. This is movement between two suburbs. I think we To look carefully at the kinds of reasons that youngsters had and and make our policy decisions at the legislature on the facts. Not on a few anecdotes alleged by some administrators who clearly don't want parents to have power to leave. It's been alleged that some youngsters are leaving for a lower grades. I talk over for lower graduation requirements. I talked yesterday with a teacher in a alternative public school in Chicago Pine area, and he was talking about how they have much more rigorous requirements and some youngsters are going from one school district to his even though they know they have more rigorous requirements. I think we need to look at the facts. The state department is now doing a survey of the 435 youngsters who moved across District Lines last year there were allegations the first year of post-secondary options that kids were doing it just for the courses, but what we found was more than 90% of the kids took very rigorous academic courses. So these allegations prove to be incorrect and about 90% of the cases. I think we need to have more faith and Families. We need to have more Partnerships between Educators and fewer criticisms of Educators to our parents. Another caller with the question now for Joe Nathan you are from where (00:14:32) please I'm from Rochester Minnesota, and I was wondering what kind of growth you see poor choices in the non-metro areas. And especially I was raised in a real rural area for graduating class of 48 and I just you know, I felt like I could have used more opportunities even as I was growing up and what kind of roses there in those areas. (00:14:52) Sure. Well one of the claims it's an important question because of course half of the state lives outside the seven-county mosquito District seven-county metro area and there were claims when post-secondary options was originally proposed might be great for the kids in the metropolitan area. But what about kids in Greater Minnesota, in fact more than half of the kids who've used post-secondary options are people who live in Greater Minnesota. What about the impact of open enrollment? There was a fear in in some parts of rural Minnesota, that would be the death of small districts. Not at all. More than half of the district more than half of the youngsters who moved this year under open enrollment went from larger districts to smaller districts. That's very important. People aren't just convinced that large schools are going to provide better schools and schooling and they're right. They're going to look carefully at what's offered. There are some schools that do it instead of smaller that do a terrific job. The issue is not necessarily sighs. The issue is the kind of course offering that's available in the kind of relationship between students and teachers and parents our children go to a small school in st. Paul. We could send them to a larger school that we're really impressed that the teachers at Horace Mann Elementary School, which is a small Elementary School in st. Paul send a note home to every single parent every Friday afternoon telling us as parents how our children are going are doing and that of course goes up on the Amana Art Gallery also known as the refrigerator every Friday night we talk about it. Now, the class size is not incredible at Horace Mann its twenty eight two one, but the teachers have made a commitment and that's as At a smaller school, but an outstanding School in Greater Minnesota there have been some very compelling testimony at the legislature from parents who say hey, we feel like like captives and are in our own School District because the school district won't respond. They put lots of money into hockey and basketball, but if we want advanced math or science course, we're called to lead us. So I think that this is leading to some good things in Greater Minnesota, but I think people need to watch this legislation that's coming up this week. That might kill it. It's about half-past eleven o'clock as we continue with Joe Nathan a senior fellow at the Humphrey Institute at the University of Minnesota who has a new book about about choice in the public schools. Thanks for waiting. You're on the air. Now. What's your question for (00:17:02) Joel my question and comment doesn't deal with choice between public and private schools nor different Public Schools. But Choice within a school. How does a person solve that problem? For example, we had a student who was in grade 2 of 012 split. We just didn't want that after we visit the class and a subsequent. Here because a teacher just wasn't doing anything. We asked the principal for the student not to be in that class and we were told not only by the principal the school but by represent the school district that parents don't have that right of choice that the principal right supersedes that of the parents and or the student. How do we resolve Choice problems within a school? (00:17:43) I'm sorry to hear that the administration had that had that attitude the the best learning is going to take place when parents and teachers administrators are working closely for the benefit of the kids in a district such as you described there are going to be problems with that strictly speaking. Yes, the principal has the has the right to decide how the how the staff is going to be deployed. But fortunately now under open enrollment. If you don't like that you can go to another District. I think in some of them in many of the more Progressive districts even smaller districts. They're offering different kinds of programs within a school one of the Intriguing things about the East Harlem experience, which is described in this new book is that Have many different schools within schools and so in one building of a thousand kids you might have four different different kinds of schools. I don't know the particulars of your case, but I would say it would be useful for you to talk with Administration and to point out that there's lots of research which we cite in the book showing that when families have the opportunity to select among different schools, even schools within schools. The kids do better and the parents are more involved Choice makes sense. Not just theoretically but very practically youngsters do better when their parents are more involved parents are more involved when they've had the opportunity to select among programs and teachers are happier when they have been given the opportunity to create distinctive programs from which families can choose is there hard empirical evidence not anecdotal evidence, but hard empirical evidence that kids actually learn more in an open enrollment situation. Sure Bob one of the reasons that the book was written was to show precisely that let me give you three quick examples of research in East Harlem. People say well what's going on Minnesota? Well, I think it's important to talk about Minnesota. We will Stolen but here's something happening in East Harlem. One of the nation's most economically depressed areas 65 percent Hispanic 33 percent black a much higher ratio of welfare people than virtually any other part of the country more than 15,000 kids ten years ago when they started the choice plan only 15% of the kids one five fifteen percent could read at or above grade level today after they've moved to a situation where every single school is an option where there are no assigned schools 65% of the kids can read at or above grade level in the parents and the district administrators and the teachers say one of the major reasons is because they've gone to a total Choice system. They also have parent information programs and other kinds of things the teachers are enormously enthusiastic about what they have been allowed to do some people think that the motivation for choices Marketplace competition, that's not all the motivation. It's to give teachers opportunities and he's Harlem is a terrific example of what's happened to show increase in student achievement and more parent involvement in a very low income Community more. Diverse and more economically diverse example is Cambridge, Massachusetts where every school at the K-8 level kindergarten through eighth grade level has now gone to choice no neighborhood schools of an extensive parent information and counseling program and they are they've gone from a situation where about 60% of the kids were passing State tests to about 95 percent of the kids passing state test. Once again, they say one of the reasons not the only reason but one of the reasons is they've gone to this Choice system. What about here in Minnesota? We know that thousands of youngsters who had dropped out of school have come back because of the governor purposes post secondary option program represented McCarran was the author of The High School graduations, and it was sometimes known as Second Chance legislation that allows youngsters who haven't succeeded in one school to go to another school and we know that literally thousands of kids have come back to school and those are kids who would be lost to society and frankly lost to themselves if they continue to out of school. So those are terrific programs with bipartisan support and it's clearly had an impact on kids lives talking with Joe Nathan about choice in the public schools. We have some folks on the line with questions and a few lines of opened up again in the Twin Cities. The number is two two seven six thousand. If you have a question, two, two seven six thousand four Twin Cities area collars elsewhere around the state of Minnesota toll-free 1-800 6-5 to 970018 hundred six, five two nine seven zero zero and now you're on the air with Joe Nathan. Go ahead, please. (00:21:45) Yes, good morning. Let's assume that I have a child that is currently in sixth grade and will be attending a secondary school outside of the system that we currently live in rather than my trying to contact say a half a dozen different districts and comparing the apples of District 1 with the oranges of District 2 through their promotional brochures. Wouldn't it make more sense to have a central Clearinghouse? I would assume run by the State Board of Education to which a person could write or phone and receive comparable answers. From all districts that will be involved in open enrollment. (00:22:26) I hope a number of state legislators have heard your question. I think the answer is absolutely yes. It would be wonderful to have such a clearing house. They do have such Clearing Houses in some states where you can write and get information. The Citizens League is talking about putting out a guide to metropolitan area schools that will have a variety of information and that they hope will be available next fall. There is a bill sponsored by Senator Ember Rach got that's being discussed in the Senate that would provide a variety of information including test scores, but also parent surveys and student surveys and teacher surveys and other kinds of information about every school in the state state school by school. I think it would be very valuable to do that not only to help parents choose, but also to help policymakers understand what kind of progress are we making frankly? It's very important to know what Educators morale is in these schools. I've spent a lot of time traveling around the state and listening to teachers and their some states and some school districts and schools. Where teachers are very very enthusiastic and excited about what they're able to do and there are others where they're pretty depressed. So we need to know what the teachers thinking we need that information school by school. It would be very good to have such information available in the central Clearinghouse and there are bills promoting that let me just say one other thing. There is a Statewide toll-free hotline that our taxes have helped to pay for parents can now call and get information. Although it is not as extensive as this caller wants and the State wide toll-free Hotline in in the Twin Cities is 296 1261 and in greater, Minnesota. It's 800 6529747 the lacking the central Clearing House is how do people find out what's available right now Bob what people have to do is to call individual districts and get material. There's also a magazine that's put out in the Twin Cities that's often distributed through real estate agents called Schoolhouse magazine and that has some data about individual schools and Minneapolis st. Paul magazine a year ago put out an issue the top About comparisons among districts, but we're still in its infancy in that we need to do a better job with parent information sounds like they would be a role for some entrepreneur there to figure out how to read these things kind of like Consumer Reports you something I think that thoughtful Consumer Reports would be viable. And actually that's what amber Rich got Senator Brian Schatz Bill calls for kind of a thoughtful consumer guide to schools right back to the telephones and more questions for Joe Nathan. Hi, you're on the air with him now. (00:24:48) Good morning earlier today on NPR. I heard about a magnet school in Washington DC. That was of such quality that parents were lining up for 24 hours in advance to register their children in this school. I'm wondering if we have magnet schools of that quality in this area and our parents really interested in that level of quality in their (00:25:11) schools. Earlier this week. I attended a meeting that was supposed to go from 729 in st. Paul. But instead it went to almost 10:30 with parents concerned that one of the schools that's available in st. Paul has a waiting list of hundreds of students and the school board is trying to figure out how to replicate that program. I think the answer is absolutely yes. There are many many parents who are looking for better options for their families and for their and for the youngsters and frankly, there are a number of teachers eager to do that. So I think the answer is yes, there are lots of parents who are looking for better options and trying to convince school districts to replicate successful programs on now to your question, please you're calling from where (00:25:51) Taylors Falls area. All right. Hi Joe, this is Gary Noreen calling. Hi, Gary, you scared us about this upcoming hearing that's going to attempt to record but enrollment what can supporters do too? Pretty counteract that (00:26:05) well, I think there are a couple of things first. We need to understand the facts the facts are that the proposed bill would make several changes first. It would say that if you want to go from one school to another school district, you have to stay for four years. I have real questions about that voice them earlier. The second fact is that parents would have to say some academic reason. It might not be an academic reason. It might be they want their child to go to the school. It's closer. They might want to go have their child go to a school which will allow them to be more involved because of daycare considerations. It might be because they just don't agree with the philosophy of the school district. We have lots of parents who have come forward to say, they just don't agree with the philosophy of the district that they don't like the way parents are treated. So people need to understand these Provisions. There's also a provision saying that if you aren't if you move from one District to another District, you lose your athletic eligibility for a year for Varsity Sports. We need to understand the facts and then if people are concerned they can call the state PTA and that number is 6 3 117360. Can contact state legislators and let them know what they feel about this but it's being done very quickly we found out about this bill for 45 Friday afternoon in the bill is is being discussed Monday, but of course bills in the Minnesota Legislature take quite a while. So if people call the PTA call legislators, I think there's a possibility of making some sense out of all this when we started of course with open enrollment there was enormous opposition. We've moved to a situation as Bob said earlier, we're a little bit more than half the people supported so I think I'm encouraged if people speak out as they've been doing on the show today. I think legislators will listen 20 minutes before twelve is we continue with Joe Nathan senior fellow at the Humphrey Institute and you're on the air now, what's your question? (00:27:46) I'm very concerned about the options available to students who are not College Bound by choice. It seems to me that schools are working very hard to emphasize advanced placement courses and counseling resources for students who do want to Go to college yet students who are not College Bound by choice are kind of being left out is open enrollment going to make this situation worse, or is it going to improve it? (00:28:17) Well, it's encouraging to hear that that group of people is represented by someone who takes the time to call in one of the things that's happened under the post-secondary options laws that many youngsters who had been working in the afternoon. At McDonald's or Burger King or some other fast food franchise have stopped doing that and they're going to a vocational technical institute and youngsters and that's allowed under this law to you. Can't you don't have to go just to oppose second. You don't have to go to adjust to college or university. You can go to a vocational technical school and some of those youngsters have been interviewed. They so why did you stop working in the afternoon? And they said because we knew that working at this fast food franchise wasn't really a ticket to the future but we just didn't like the traditional high school now because they have this new option of going to a Technical vocational school. They have stopped working or maybe they work early in the evening or perhaps later in the evening. And of course, there's a lot of discussion about young people working in the evening as well. But anyway, it's not as well known that youngsters can go to a Technical vocational school, but it is the fact and and there are thousands of youngsters using who've used that option as well. I think the parents need to speak up and say hey there are lots of youngsters who are not going to go to a college. Firstly we need to pay attention to them and frankly some of the most compelling testimony has come from youngsters who have gone to alternative schools such as the outstanding alternative school in Chicago Lakes area or the outstanding alternative school in st. Cloud which are for youngsters who are probably not going to be star students at st. Cloud State or at the University of Minnesota, but I'm going to go on and do very useful things in carpentry or Plumbing or computer repair things like that. So this is definitely designed to expand opportunities to decrease increase high quality options for youngsters who have a variety of expectations for their future. And next to you, please go ahead Joe Nathan is listening for your (00:30:04) question. Yes. This also goes along with what you're talking about. For example, the City of Minneapolis is supposedly allowed to participate in open enrollment. He had students are denied access to other districts because it would work against desegregation. So, how do we approach this? (00:30:20) Minneapolis and st. Paul have approached this a little bit differently. I think that we need to understand what the law says. The law says that the neg the overall impact cannot be a negative impact on desegregation. Now there has been some movement in and out of st. Paul. In fact, the superintendent recently said in st. Paul that about that the about 60 or 70 youngsters were going to move in and about 60 or 70 youngsters were going to move out and st. Paul has been allowing youngsters of both races to move in and out of the district. And I think that's the positive way to approach it. I'm not sure exactly what Minneapolis is doing her different versions of what Minneapolis is doing. I think the best that the parents are going to be most involved in their children's education when they have helped us select the school. I also think it's important for people in Suburban areas to look closely what's happening in Minneapolis and st. Paul and I'm delighted that a number of suburban parents have decided to send their children into st. Paul to go to a Montessori program or to advanced placement program interestingly. Some number a great deal of them. When is occurring at the elementary school level we hear all this talk about high school athletes and how supposedly youngsters are moving for hockey. In fact more than half the kids who were participating in an open enrollment are under seventh grade. Where does City Suburban desegregation efforts of fit into all this right. Now? We are trying to promote more integration among School among youngsters of different racial and economic groups by allowing kids to move back and forth between the cities and suburbs now David Bennett has proposed taking some additional steps and I think some of those steps are wise. We need to have clear understanding in the suburbs about the options in the city. I think we need to have clearer operative some better transportation Arrangements worked out so that the people can do that. Although I'm hesitant to spend enormous amounts of money on Transportation. They have a desegregation program in St. Louis that has some good future features unquestionably. They've beefed up the magnet programs in the city, but they also are spending more than 3 thousand dollars a year transporting Suburban youngsters into the City and I think that's probably We're not the best use of limited funds $3,000 for the whole transportation for each child for each kid for each kid. Not for the whole system knows thousand dollars for transportation for each Suburban youngster who comes into the city. I think that's excessive and frankly. One of the reasons is because in st. Louis, they provide taxi rides to some of the Suburban kids and that's just incredible. I think we could do some Cooperative programming and there's some conversation about that. That's part of what dr. Bennett has suggested I think and and that would be beneficial. I think some of the suburban school districts should look to Minneapolis and st. Paul as possible cooperation. We could develop some astonishing programs together bringing kids of racial and and different racial and economic backgrounds together. So I think there are some creative ways to do that with people good will come forward and say yes, let's work together on this and now we will turn to you for a question for Joe Nathan. Thanks for waiting. You're on the air now. (00:33:11) Yes. Well, I've been waiting the last two questions of touched on one thing that I have a question about plus going back. He did mention this meeting and st. Paul and I don't know that they had to do with it. Specifically but there was an article in the paper this last week about a magnet school. He'll I think it was there where they for the gifted and talented right? And I know they've had no I can remember or 20 years ago and they all had an open school and st. Paul and I have followed us through the years and thought it was working pretty well. But this particular magnet school for gifted talented according to the article there are hundreds of people waiting to get in and the reason no more would be taken into program or that they wouldn't Institute a similar program at a another location was that they didn't have enough minorities. They wanted 30 or 33 percent if I remember and that's what they had. But until there were more. Unfortunately. The other people are just going to be left out that seems you know, that's a little disturbing. Is there any solution that is the other thing about it? Is that the meeting you were attending? (00:34:11) This was discussed at the meeting and there were several state legislator several members of the school board and more than a hundred parents and it was in the hits. The situation Hill was one of the things that was discussed extensively. For more than three hours a number of suggestions were made here are two or three that I think make most sense. First of all, I think it does make sense to replicate that program if hundreds of people are asking for it, there's some good things going on and I visited Hill and I agree. There are some wonderful things going on at that school. But we also have the expectation that kids have different racial and economic groups will go to school together and that's an expectation that's in a rule in this in this state and I support the rule but I think we have to be creative about how we get there in in the case of Hill one of the things that could be done would be to expand our understanding of gifts and talents right now in order to get into that school. You have to pass a pretty traditional standardized tests and I've pointed out in that at that meeting that there are kids who are talented in theater. There are kids who are talented in painting and sculpture. There are kids who are talented in other ways whose gifts and talents will never be come through in a standardized test. So there are there are some schools for gifted and talented kids around the country that That provide opportunities for kids were very good in writing and math and reading as well as kids who are good, and some of the other kinds of activities and when those kinds of schools are set up they quickly become very racially and economically diverse and I and some school board members were there and thought that made some sense in some of the parents thought it made some sense. So I think that there are going to be meetings in st. Paul to try to replicate that program. The Saint Paul schools has asked for some magnet school money to provide opportunities for teachers to plan some new programs, and I'm encouraged by what's happening. But I also think that people in st. Paul concerned about this ought to ask in the school board campaign what to school board members think they're going to do about this because it is a hot issue in st. Paul talking with Joe Nathan today. He's a senior fellow at the Humphrey Institute at the University of Minnesota former School administrator and teacher and he is out with a new book called public schools by choice expanding opportunities for parents students and teachers. Is it on the bookshelves? It has a number of bookstores around the Twin Cities and if you go to a bookstore and they say don't have it then you can tell him to call Bookman because In which is the distributor does have it? All right. Let's take your question. Next. Where are you calling from? First of (00:36:25) all kinds of northern Minnesota. (00:36:28) And what's your question? (00:36:29) Well, Well back on I'm a board member in a very large rural district and we are looking quite positively at Open Enrollment. But because of the nature of our district, we are seeing some problems propping up the Horizon. I want to throw the question at you because of our small elementary schools. We have 10 of them. If we lose population out of some of them were going to destroy choice for the people are being in the area because we may have to close small elementary schools and bus children as much as 45 miles over rural roads. It's kind of unique situation because our district is a hundred miles corner to corner and how do you see that as being positive if we have to destroy the choice for some of our parents? So the other parents can't have a choice sure if I Quest (00:37:22) well, it's an important question and and in greater Minnesota this applies differently and as I've tried to say Choice isn't going to solve all of Problems, but I think we need to look at the kind of situation that you talked about. There are there can be much smaller elementary schools than sometimes people think I mean frankly some of the most effective elementary schools in the country were one-room schoolhouses. We've gotten away from that idea. I helped set up a school. It was mentioned a few minutes earlier was a 500 students school kindergarten through 12th grade, which is a much smaller School than most people in the metropolitan area are familiar with we don't have to have one grade of 28 to 30 kids. In order to have an effective School fact some of the most popular schools in Minneapolis. And st. Paul are smaller schools are schools that don't have hundreds of youngsters. So I would say that the school board and parents ought to get together with administrators and talk about new ways of organizing schools rather than feeling like we have to have this organization of 28 to 33 kids in each grade level. We don't have to do that in Greater Minnesota. There's a lot of nostalgia for one-room schoolhouses. We started a school in st. Paul because we like the idea of a older and younger kids. You guys are so I would say that if we insist on the old patterns the traditional patterns of 25 to 35 kids in each grade, then we're going to have some problems if we look at new approaches in some cases approach is that there were tried and true like one-room School houses. We can keep some of those very small programs open. In fact as I've said the research to date is that more than half of the youngsters are going from larger districts to smaller districts. So it's not like people are desperate to get out of small situations unless their situations. Where as I've said earlier with a lot of money is being spent on Athletics. Not much money is spent on on math or science and there are some concerns about that kind of thing, but I think there are lots of creative approaches and if the school board member wants to call me I'd be delighted to talk in Greater detail about this. I think it's possible to accommodate a wide variety of people and I think that expanding options provides opportunity for real creativity among school districts, Joe we're talking mostly about education, but let's talk politics for just a second and how the politics of the various interest groups in the In Industry play into this you've got the teachers and their powerful Union of got the administrators and their powerful organization the school board administers the school board members have a powerful organization. How does all that work out? And how does that affect what actually happens? One of the things that's happened in Minnesota is that we have politics that are very clean and where people listen thoughtfully and carefully a coalition was put together Bob in 1985 that included the Minnesota PTA the League of Women Voters presidents of a number of large corporations, the directors of the league of the directors of the community action programs the war on poverty agencies the elementary and secondary school principals and hundreds and hundreds of teachers and administrators and parents throughout the state and they convinced working with the governor and working with a bipartisan Coalition of legislators that we ought to move ahead on public school choice. It's been a battle everybody who's followed this over the last five years knows that that we have really battled on this issue and obviously given a bill that's going to be introduced on Monday to try to wreck. Enrollment the battle isn't over but we've made progress and I'm delighted to say that a number of the professional organizations have come forward and said, you know, this isn't as bad as we thought a number of individual teachers have spoken in favor of it and some of the school board members have spoken in favor of it. I think that there's an attempt to listen carefully and to recognize the choice isn't going to solve all of the problems is not going to destroy the school's the way some people alleged it for one thing. It's produced major movement back into the public schools more than 2,000 youngsters over the last year or two of move back into the public schools from private and parochial schools and public school. People are happy about that the lobbyists from one of the teachers organizations told the Christian Science monitor that his organization at vigorously opposed it but now they're starting to see this as teacher empowerment around the country. We're seeing many states replicate Minnesota programs. I was in Colorado last week and the Colorado Education Association president was speaking on behalf of a public school choice plan there. This is really happening around the country. Than 10 states have adopted versions of Minnesota's Choice by door different kinds of choice plans over the last year or two and I think it's because people are recognizing this this idea if it's implemented well and that's important if there's parent information if their racial balance guidelines if there's Transportation particularly for low and moderate income people. It's a very powerful positive idea. So we're moving ahead. It's a battle and we're clearly going to have a battle over the next month of the legislature, but we're also moving ahead and that's encouraging we have about five minutes left with Joe Nathan will get as many of you who are waiting on the air as possible. And where are you calling from to begin with? (00:42:03) Good morning? I'm calling from (00:42:04) Brainerd. And what's your question for (00:42:06) Joel? Yes, Joe. I know you in 1971 and I was enrolled at night in st. Paul open school and I graduated there from 78 and my question is for two things. First of all, I'd like to comment that it was good preparation for traditional or non-traditional lifestyle after graduating. However, I would like to know what you have heard as far as what follow-up Studies have been done on. Afterwards and your comments on the new graduation quote new graduation requirements that they're doing and it seems interesting to me that they're very similar to what I remember going through when I was 18. (00:42:44) Oh that's delightful always to hear from somebody with whom I worked some years ago the Saint Paul opened school, which is a public alternative school kindergarten through 12th grade has received a variety of awards including a national award. It's a great place for some teachers and some kids. It's a lousy place for other teachers. That's one of the values of choice but to open school said in 1973 and says today 1989, it's still open as an option for people throughout the throughout the state at now under open enrollment in there are some people coming in from the suburbs and from other places to go to st. Paul open school. It's said that graduation ought to be based on demonstration of competence. And that's what the State Board of Education is. Now saying the graduation ought to be based on competence on demonstration of skill and knowledge not just accumulation of credits. The open school has has gone through some rough times a number of different principles of Then I think now they have an outstanding principal Mary Kay Boyd and and the parents and teachers are working closely together and it's an outstanding place for some teachers and some kids and it's certainly a place where some new ideas have been pioneered. Okay on to your question. No. Hello, you're on the air with Joe (00:43:45) Nathan. Yeah. Mr. Nathan, you talked about Choice understand other countries such as the Netherlands and to some extension British Columbia the offer choice in schools by a voucher system in British Columbia think you offer $500,000 per school and in the Netherlands all School in free regardless of whether it's public or private. Do you have any information how effective our schools have been in do we have anything to learn from them? (00:44:08) Oh, that's the the whole voucher issue is something that's been debated in this country for more than 25 years. I think we made a major break in Minnesota by separating the issue of educational Choice from the issue issue of vouchers. It's an enormously emotional issue. There have been proposals back and forth so far. We don't seem to be able to get a political consensus on it. What we Achieved it seems like a consensus about public school choice other countries have had different experiences with vouchers, which is letting public funds go to private and parochial schools and clearly there's no consensus in this state or in any other state to try it time for one more. I think we'll put you on briefly. Go ahead with Joe (00:44:48) Nathan real quick question what age may have child choose the school to go to without both parents permission (00:44:54) without both parents permission. Oh gosh, I that's the first time I've been asked that one. I'm not sure I me give you the state number and and state toll-free number in the metropolitan area. It's two nine six 1261 and in greater, Minnesota. It's 800 6529747. I think it's I think it's probably the age of maturity. I'm not sure if that would be 18. I think people at that's a guess but I would say probably at age 18 people would be able to decide without parent permission. I'm not sure though. I'd suggest you call the state. We've got about a half a minute left. Should we take one more see if there's next question is just as brief and then we'll be all done quick question for Jill, please. (00:45:32) Hi there. Basically I'm in this sort of situation where I did a lot of studying and you know over the past few years and I've been out of school since I've been 15 and I tried going back to school and had a real hard time plugging into my system and stuff like that or following what I was already in did you graduate? (00:45:50) No, I didn't. Okay, you should call that number because the state now gives you the right to graduate either through high. Cool or through Community College or state through this so-called Second Chance law. You should call that number and they can tell you how to use it because the state is guaranteeing people enough education to graduate which is a terrific step forward. I think Joe that's it. Thank you. We've run out of time most interesting Joe Nathan the senior fellow at the Humphrey Institute whose new book is called public schools by choice expanding opportunities for parents students and teachers a brief reminder that midday is made possible by Ecolab Incorporated and it's Chemlawn subsidiary. The time is 12 o'clock. This is Bob Potter. This Is ksjn 1330 Minneapolis-Saint Paul actually it's a minute before twelve isn't it Mark it is indeed say no new developments in that this hour from Apple Valley and now 19 hours into it the police standoff continues today with the prison escapee and his accomplice they are holed up in an Apple Valley town house with a woman and her two children earlier today police were able to contact the escapee convicted murderer Larry Hill by telephone will keep an eye on this story throughout the afternoon and update you as the situation warrants currently in the Twin Cities Cloudy Skies 11 degrees northwest wind at eight miles an hour. Our forecast is for mostly kind of sunny conditions Statewide and seasonably cold with highs from the teens to the mid-20s. You're doing the ksjn 1330 Minneapolis st. Paul will update the news from National Public Radio here in just a few moments. Then it's onto programming from the BBC. Now the time is 12 noon.