(00:00:00) I didn't think it'd be fun to have Clark more feedback. As we enter the holiday season talk a little bit about religion Clark is the religion writer for the st. Paul newspapers is weekly column appears in the Saturday Pioneer Press Clark before we get anything too terribly substantive here review again for us how you got interested in the column and how that came about. Well, I left the parish Ministry ten years ago something like that 12 years ago maybe and really miss the pulpit and proposed a column to the st. Paul Pioneer Press and they picked up on it and I was doing that as a freelancer for a couple of years three years, I think and then we built a readership and they began to ask for more and so they hired me full-time. I'm now syndicated by the way, and well so my column goes out over the knight-ridder newswire 256 newspapers of potential audience of about 21 million. People which is a lot more than you had in your church. I'll bet that's right about 700 Sunday morning, right? Sure. All right. What about you mentioned 700 in your church is is is church membership in the country in our area Rising falling staying steady or what? Well, I think interest in religion generally is rising. It's increasing in lead by Leaps and Bounds as the society becomes more technological and complicated people are looking for simple answers to some very large spiritual problems, but in turn but there's also a cataclysmic change going on within religion and it's very upsetting to some people and that is that people are not latching on to traditional religion particularly the mainline Christian churches as they once did back in the 50s and 60s when I assume you both you and I grew up. And we're teenagers the mainline Christian churches were the only show in town, but now they have all kinds of competition. And anything that is that religions that are less traditional are much more attractive to some people. Why is that why are the main line religions not doing as well on these newer ones catching on I think that some Mainline churches. I'm trying to get along with our listeners when I say that really a lot of Mainline churches many are not paying attention to the younger people and when they do not appeal to teenagers for instance, that means that they are also not appealing to middle-aged people. They're not appealing to people my age. I just turned 50 and it's some some Sundays it's very difficult for me to get interested in what's going on particularly because of the music it's not the kind of music that I hear on. Day-to-day basis and some you know, I've always been a very Avid listener public radio because of the classical music I thoroughly enjoy it but the classical music the died here in church is not as well produced and performed and very often. I hear schlocky music that really doesn't speak to me. What I'd like to hear is a combination of just for my taste but a combination of classical music and some contemporary sounding religious music that I think I can relate to it's probably a little tough to get some of the world's best orchestras and performers into every Church in Sarasota though and that's exactly why for instance organ music became a popular form of church music is because the the organ can sound like an orchestra and can simulate those those kinds of grand sounds we will open up the phone lines here and let you To participate in this conversation about religion Clark more few is with us. And if you have a question our toll our telephone number in the Twin Cities area is 2276 thousand 2276 thousand in the Twin Cities elsewhere within the state of Minnesota toll-free one 800 695 hundred thousand eight hundred 6529700. And if you're listening in one of the surrounding states, you can call us directly at area code 612 2276 thousand. Obviously, I released I would assume that the the mainline churches are not happy about the State of Affairs of declining membership that the new people are going off to other sorts of religions. Are they doing anything to try to attract people to their churches? Well, some of the denominations are absolutely desperate at this point. Let's just take a second to look at some of the figures the United Methodist Church is losing between 1,000 and 1,500 members every single Wow, nationally known nationally. Yes is the Presbyterian Church. They say experts say if Trends continue in in a century. It will not exist the Lutheran Church in 1968 membership peaked and has been declining ever since the Episcopal Church in the 1960s lost about a million members mainly because of controversy or at least that's that's what they thought then but those declines have continued in the Episcopal church. So the mainline churches are in real trouble and some of them are desperately trying to put together some programs that will get people excited about evangelism for instance and also planting new churches because the the statistics show us that if a church has been stagnated for a long period of time for 10 years say or even two decades that it's very difficult to get people to start coming to that church younger people with children for instance because Is there a they are so entrenched in their Traditions that and also so entrenched in just the mindset that we don't want anybody destroying or destroying our comfort our comfortable situation. And you sense that when you go to visit one of those congregations so folks on the line with questions for Clark more few religion writer for the st. Paul newspaper. Go ahead, please you're on the air with (00:06:24) him. Good morning. I'm calling to reinforce your point regarding music and Mainline churches. I tend to the fundamentalist Church briefly and enjoy the music very much. But then I went back to my main line church for Spiritual reasons and again was disappointed like you said in the mainline music. So I just want to reinforce that plus say that I enjoy your column in the Pioneer Press very much and read it every Saturday. (00:06:49) Thank you very much. You know, one of the things that we don't really seem to realize is how important music is to people and churches particularly have not realized that I think there was a time when they did they worked very hard at it but not so sure that that's happening. And when I first became interested in had access to music as as a young man, I was interested in it, but not as interested as my children are today. I mean, they have the stereo on constantly. They got headphones on they're always into music and And it really is an extremely important part of their life. And then when they go to church and they hear nothing that resembles the kind of music that speaks to them. They immediately get the message that the church is not welcoming them to their their worship Services of the church treaty doesn't want them there. Hmm. Let's move on to this next question or here. Hello Clarke Murphy is (00:07:46) listening. Hello. I'm a born and bred and butter dyed-in-the-wool practicing Catholic and and I and I have been all my life and I think that one of the problems that the churches have these days and I go to a lot of them is that they don't really speak to single people and I know Clark was talking a couple of minutes ago about church has not been able to attract young people with children. There are other people in the world who don't have children who aren't even married who aren't even attached. They're called single people and when I was growing up the single life was Could have to be a vocation like marriage or the priesthood or the life of a sister or brother and these days I have not ever seen a church. I have never been in a church the Catholic Church. Anyway, that that actually speaks to Young two single people and single people have a lot to offer and I think the church needs to speak to them more than just having a group of single people. (00:08:58) All right Clark your views on that. That's exactly right and I apologize to you for not including single people in the in my remarks a moment ago for like forty percent of the general population of this country is single and that includes older people who have been widowed with cludes divorcees includes people who have never married and certainly the churches are missing. Avast this is crude. But a vast Market of people and should be paying attention to them. I think that to be perfectly Frank about it particularly with younger single people. The church is nervous about the single person's sexuality and really is not quite comfortable with that person's lifestyle. And even though they don't know anything about that person's lifestyle or morality. They you know, very often church people are just simply nervous about it. And so single people have a difficult time breaking into a church and becoming an integral part of that congregation. It's a Pity and I think some Churches particularly Evangelical churches are taking a look at that and trying to find some ways to incorporate single people into the congregation, but it's going to be a long haul I want to bring up another topic here briefly as we wait for as we just integrate some phone calls you talked about the music in the church service. How about the sermon do people get something out of that or is that just sort of a long commercial in between music? Well, it's I said in a recent column that many sermons are the world's greatest known Aid to sleep. They are just you know, it's preaching is a lost art. I'm afraid and I don't know how the that kind of thing can be regained. I suspected it has to do with Seminary training and how how preachers are are taught to preach but very often what happens in a sermon is that we get a theological analysis of a text and most of us could care less and but that's the way preachers are trained particularly in Mainline churches. They are trained to thoroughly analyze the text. To exegete what a Siege. I'm sorry. That's what exit Jesus is. You know, one of those fancy words that that probably is thrown out in many churches on a Sunday morning. It is simply means analyzing the text interpreting the text that sort of thing exegesis interpretation of the text should be left in the pasture study and the pastor should enter that Pulpit was stories illustrations, very brief, theological transitions never preached more than 15 minutes 20, if you're a Barn Burning kind of preacher and get up and say what you need to say and say it in pictures and then sit down pictures and stories or the way. It's being told today in the more successful and effective congregations now, well, you say they shouldn't go more in 20 minutes, but yet the TV evangelist go on for an hour, but the TV evangelist have all the technical advantages that a preacher doesn't have in the basement. Open and also those TV preachers are probably the outstanding crowd-pleasers. I'm not saying that they're necessarily effective preachers, but they're crowd-pleasers. They get those guys really know how to use the language and they know how to manipulate a crowd of people and so they can go on for longer but a lot of that is interspersed with great music and so forth move on to some more folks with questions here as we continue talking religion with Clark more few from the st. Paul newspapers. Hello, you're on the air with them. (00:12:51) I want to thank you for the Seine and generous and sincere spirit that comes through in your writing. I appreciate seeing you every Saturday in the Pioneer Press. I wonder if you would say something about what I perceive as an increased popularity of the Church of Latter Day Saints in the Midwest. And also if you have any insight into whether this popularity is by in migration or by conversion, It's Mormonism. (00:13:22) Yes, the Church of Latter Day Saints if in case some of our listeners didn't hurt here that the popular name is is Mormonism. And yeah, the Church of Latter-day Saints has increased greatly. It's one of the American sex that has had tremendous success in the last decade. Of course, one of the important reasons why it has had success is because they work very hard at evangelism. I mean, they send out teams of young people very very attractive very zealous young people who are trained to go door-to-door and neighborhoods and talk to people and that effort is paying off their just no doubt about it. The other thing that the that the Church of Latter Day Saints offers is is simple concrete unbending rules for getting along in this crazy world that we live in And if you follow the rules the church will help you and the rules will work and you will be a happier more prosperous prosperous person and I must agree that those rules do work. If you follow them exactly and the rules also work in a fundamentalist church, if you follow them exactly and if you don't live try to live outside of that group of people, but when you start to move into other areas of society, sometimes the rules have to be bent. So yeah, the Mormons lots of different groups have had tremendous success in the last few years that's part of the of the force that's happened at that is changing the mainline churches. It's part of the force that's changing our whole society and that's what we're looking at this morning. So I'm glad for the question. Let's take another one from you. Hello there Clarke Moore who's listening? Go ahead. (00:15:17) Have a serve a hard question to ask I've gone to several churches and the recent couple of years kind of looking for a place for my spirituality. And one thing that I've noticed is a sense of spiritual materialism in many of the newer form churches and I'd rather not you know disclose which those are but it's been said or discouraging because what I've noticed is people using spirituality for material gains, and I don't mean just you know, cars and trips and things like that but a sense of being spiritual Etc and some of the churches I've gone to that seemed to be the best me are those that bring me closer to my own spirituality and I just wonder if you could comment a bit on the topic of spiritual materialism in the context. I just outlined (00:16:10) well, I think you're absolutely right and they probably the most radical form of Kind of theology is in some of the Pentecostal churches where they actually have formulas for Prosperity. Oral Roberts will tell his followers. If you give me some seed money that will be returned to you tenfold by God and he makes that promise he guarantees it. Of course. I don't know how you'd ever collect on that but it's at least a guarantee a verbal guarantee and lots of other many other Pentecostal and charismatic groups have picked up on that and are preaching the same kind of gospel of prosperity. I don't believe that it works. I've heard that creeping into stewardship sermons, you know, and the fall of the year. You may be just gone through your stewardship campaign in your local congregation, but I've heard that said in Lutheran Churches Catholic churches Methodist churches across the board. Kind of a hint that if you tithe to your congregation that God is going to give that back really no sense of sacrifice our sense of suffering for God. It's if you give it back will reward you in some way and I don't think that's ever been guaranteed by anything in scripture or any of the Holy books of any religion. Maybe it has and if it has and I want to know about it Clark more fuse with us today. He's the religion writer for the st. Paul newspapers column appears in today's Pioneer Press, by the way, and you have a question. Go ahead please you're (00:17:53) next. Hi Clark. It's nice to hear you migrate to another station. Hi Claire. I don't know how many people know you're great radio personality. Anyway, I think both churches and synagogues are mainly family-oriented as far as the reform Temple. I belong to don't call the music. There. He is. Aki my string quartet (00:18:19) played. Oh, well, that's good. I'm sure that's (00:18:21) good. It was a new thing that they did but you know our Rabbi is leaving shortly and I'm going to miss him. I had two questions one is I wonder if in America a lot of people that are shopping for churches or whatever have more of a bent toward quote making it, you know monetarily and so on and also in there looking for that in all the wrong places or too much and also of they're looking for a sense of certainty, which I don't think is something you should get in a church or synagogue. (00:19:02) All right back any observations on those two things? Well, I think that's true. I think it's always been true. Don't you think, you know, the people have always gone to church or the synagogue because there they could make some contacts there and that was part of the reason or that Would be perceived in the community is being stable and dependable and responsible those kinds of things and I think people also are looking for a sense of certainty. I agree with that and that's why rules laws. The law has become much more important than the gospel. The the the rules have become much more important than the good news that the religion brings. So yeah, I think you're right. And I think that's why the fundamentalist churches are prospering and the mainline churches are facing some crises and some challenges. Do you think the the Jewish faith is having the same problem at the mainline Christian churches are in terms of attracting young people and maintaining a membership-based. Sure the big the big problem for Jewish congregations. Is that so many Jews assimilate into society and really pay no attention to the faith and they feel that they're Jews because their mother was a Jew or because they've been converted or There was a conversion at some point along the way in their family history, but they don't feel that being observant of the laws of Judaism and taking advantage of the promises of Judaism is important in their particular life. So that's always been a problem for Judaism and I think who has the society becomes more complicated and more materialistic it will continue to be a problem still on the same topic basically in Israel. There is a big debate going on over. What is a Jew and and what what point does one become recognized officially as a Jew is that a debate that is spilling over into the United States at all. Yeah really is and it affects Jews in the United States very directly that it has always been true that if your mother is a Jew then you are a Jew the just no question about that if your mother is not a Jew and you want to become a Jew then you have to go through In certain process for conversion which includes circumcision a ritual in the font kind of a ritual bath that Jews have even here in the Twin Cities and to make certain promises about keeping the Torah in Orthodox, Judaism that includes being kosher in that is eating only certain foods and preparing those Foods in a certain way and on and on it goes for orthodox Jews. There are 613 laws Torah laws that they must keep and that they must promise to keep Orthodox. Jews are saying only Orthodox Jews can't we're going to stir up a lot of trouble on this Bob. We're going to have a lot of phone calls on this if we have Jewish listeners, but only Orthodox Jews can be true Jews because only Orthodox Jews keep the six the full 613 laws of the Torah and And conservative Jews are protesting that because they think that makes them second-class citizens. That's it in a nutshell and I hope that was some Jewish people do call us so that we can clarify that that whole thing even more. All right. It's about half past the hour Clark more few is here religion writer for the st. Paul newspaper is our telephone number if you would like to join the conversation is 2276 thousand in the Twin Cities elsewhere within the state one 865 to 9700. We have callers on the line, but there are also a couple lines open at the moment and on to your question now, thank you for waiting. You're on the air. (00:22:54) Yeah. I wanted to ask a question of your guests concerning what happens or what doesn't happen in a church once a person has as either found a church that he's comfortable with relative to some of the demographic issues that you've been talking about and things such as music and and other lifestyle issues. With the spiritual side. Is it possible or would you say that it's reasonable to expect that even once we're getting people to some of the mainline churches or even some of the some of the not so Mainline churches that once they get there they're finding that there isn't really a sort of a contemporary spiritual message that's going to address address the concerns that they have in this modern (00:23:41) world. Well, I think that's why so many people are Church hopping or church shopping these days. They don't want to get stuck in a congregation like that and I hate to put it that way but that is the way it starts to feel if you join a congregation that doesn't fit you spiritually and is not giving you help to face the modern world. And so a lot of people are going around and when they find a church and the first Sunday they visited it seems really ready to fit them and they decide that they'll go back there for a Month of Sundays and they find out during that three or four week period that in fact, it does not fit them that they just happened to hit the Sunday. When a good Sunday. Let's say when the preacher was on so I would support anybody's efforts to find a church and I would say yes go and church shop and find the right place for you. You and go there for six months even until you finally make a commitment because once you make that commitment, you begin to develop friendships you get into a whole Community a whole lifestyle a whole culture and then it's very difficult to get out of that because because of the Void it's going to leave in your life and I don't want you stuck in a congregation that is not feeding you spiritually another person waiting here talk to Clark more fuel. Go ahead you're on with him (00:25:13) now pretty hard to blow down these views, but I'll give them to you one two three. I've always wondered why the mainline churches are so uptight about young people's sexuality in your opinion is the Mormon Church a truly Christian sect around here. We've got a lot of choice of radio services. And since I got disabled I have found one out of st. Olaf College in Northfield. That suits me very well and the Roman Catholic Church currently is having a real hard time getting theology students. That's quite a bit to chew on (00:25:51) certainly is you commented earlier about young people and sexuality. I guess was single people in sexuality, but I can't remember what his question was. Well, it's not sexual are the churches uncomfortable with young people in their sexuality. Oh, they definitely are they don't know what's going on. There's all kinds of talk. There's all kinds of rumors. I think that young people are very responsible. In early about their sexuality but we have to face the facts that there are lots of illegitimate children children who are not wanted children who are being raised in in difficult situations. The church is nervous about all of that. I mean there are lots of rules in the Bible and the Torah about how you should deal with your sexuality. But it in the last two decades maybe the last three or four sexuality has become the major sin, you know the mortal sin and we just cannot talk about it and that's the difficult thing for churches right now and kids are faced with these problems with these Temptations and they want to talk about it and there isn't anybody to talk to any responsible adult to talk to so that has become a very big problem. You see also he mentioned the Catholic church, right? Lack of priests the whole sexuality questioned being you know, causing a great deal of turmoil in the Catholic church just about every major issue that the Catholic church is dealing with these days has to do in one way or another with sexuality, you know, women female Priests of celibacy celibate clergy celibate religious sisters and brothers abortion and on and on, you know, all of the birth control, all of those things had to do with sexuality in one way or another and the church cannot openly talk about it, which is a very sad thing to me, you know, if we could somehow get some dialogue going in the Catholic church, maybe and I'm not just talking about dialogue between the people and the Bishops. I'm talking about the Bishops in dialogue with the Pope and the Roman curia and all the rest across the board. Maybe some of those things could be solved and the last part of this college question had to do with your views on whether Mormons are truly Christian. Oh, I have no idea. Okay. No, I mean, how can I judge? Entire denomination. I don't even you know, I don't even know if the guy sitting next to me at work is Christian and I'm not going to make those judgments somehow that's up to God to make their all kinds of their all kinds of Mainline denominations. That would say they are not Christians. The Mormon say they are and I guess that's good enough for me. I'll take their word for it. Let's move on here. We got a lumber people on the line with questions Clark more fuse with this talking about religion today. You're on the air with him. (00:28:49) Hello. I'm a I'm a Lutheran and I'm a Lutheran because I believe in the doctrine set forth by Martin Luther not because I like the church particularly. In fact, I have two things that I really think the church fall short him. Number one while the while the head of church bodies tells us, you know reach out to the minorities reach out to the poor reach out to the all the different group local churches tend to think. Well, we don't want to have anything to do with those people. And for that reason I have real problems of staying in the local churches the other situation that I think those are in churches fall down is in our absolute refusal to talk about what's happening in end times Theory. I'm going to hang up and listen (00:29:46) by n times Theory. I would assume that you're talking about what's going to happen when your lord returns to earth and all of the all that that entails sometimes referred to as eskil, eschatology among theologians, but that has become such a big Topic in some fundamentalist churches and in some of the American sex that have sprung up here and there and also in some of the the Cults and they all seem to have answers to that. And of course Christians have answers to it too, but I'll tell you why Mainline churches don't Broach that subject because it's so dreary to so many people right now. For instance. We are in the season of Advent Advent is the waiting for the time of Waiting for the coming of Christ and we have turned it into preparation time for Christmas, which is much more cheerful and bright and happy but really we ought to be talking preaches ought to be preaching right now about what's going to happen at the end times and all of the promises in the Bible about how Christians will be saved from the Holocaust that will happen when that when that occurs so that's a voided and I don't know how some Mainline preachers avoided because the texts are very the Tet the preaching texts are very explicit. I mean the the texts are about the end time and what it means to wait in some kind of with some kind of dignity for those times to happen. So, I don't know how they avoid it, but they do and it's because it's so dreary and, you know, if you get to dreary in the Pulpit on Sunday morning to just doesn't work, and then maybe the offerings going to fall off and somebody's going to get angry and thank you. Frankly preachers deal with enough Anger from parishioners. They don't need to to manufacture it from the pulpit any observations about the way churches deal with minorities. Well, there is a great Gap, but I don't know if you can expect every congregation to jump into that mission. I think the church has had done a tremendous job since 1980 when the Republican Administration cut back on services to homeless and mentally ill people State hospitals for the mentally retarded opened up and people Spilled Out into the streets who were not able to cope with their own lives and the churches have really filled that Gap to a great extent. And all you have to do is be down here about five o'clock in downtown st. Paul and watch the homely homeless people streaming towards the Dorothy Day Center over by the Civic Center and waiting there for me. Be their only meal of the day and that is the Catholic Church doing that and an awful lot of Lutheran churches that come in there and do at least one meal every month and they do it without any charge to anybody. They just it's a gift to the community. You know, I you can criticize the church is all you want. I don't see very many fraternal organizations providing those meals and feeding hungry people. The churches are doing it. And if your congregation is not doing it then I think that you have a responsibility to do encourage it and if you can't encourage it then maybe you have a responsibility to get out and find a church that will 18 minutes before twelve o'clock Clark more few the religion writer for the st. Paul newspaper is here as we talk about religion issues today. Lots of people with questions and your next total there. (00:33:33) Hi, we the Christian church in generally in the United States today seems to be in a very ecumenical a And I'm curious about whatever happened to heresy. We tolerate so many things. I'm wondering if the Christian churches are so positive that in trying to State what they believe that they are afraid to State what is wrong in other beliefs or in their own? All right. (00:34:09) Well sure I you know, I think what's happened to particularly with Mainline churches is that they have all become generic and I think some sometimes I feel that the auto take a spray put some spray paint and paint them all kind of a bland off color white and just put up their Church, you know or Christian and then we could just take our choice because they've all become the same and there's no difference there was a time when there was a there was a distinct difference between the theology. By the Methodist Church in the theology preached by the Lutheran Church. Lutheran's are very proud of their theology one of the and so were the methodists but one of the things that happened is that of course that discouraged ecumenical unity and we don't want to do that. We do want that unity and we need that Unity. So churches have opened up they become very pluralistic. They have accepted everyone and no matter what your theology is your accepted there. However, now churches are pulling back and the Methodist last May I was in st. Louis for the United Methodist convention and the United Methodist said we can no longer afford to be as pluralistic as we have been in the past. We can't just accept everybody. You have to meet certain standards. And so they laid out a theology that their members are going to be expected to subscribe to and particularly their clergy. So yeah, I agree with you. There is no such thing as heresy. More I mean if a Lutheran Minister really went off the beam and started to talk like a member of the unification Church like a Muni then then there would probably be some disciplinary action. But as long as he stays within a very broad House of faith, everything is okay. And I think that's true of every denomination. Let's move on to our next caller. Thank you for waiting. And Clark Murphy was listening now. Go ahead. (00:36:13) Okay. Could you please address the question of the role of women in the church? I'm a member of a Lutheran Church body that teaches women are not allowed to have a voice in the church in that. We can't hold certain offices such as deacons or Elders or to vote. Now. I've been questioning this and references always made to the versus stating husband is head of the house and women are not to speak in the church. Could you provide some insight on his please? (00:36:39) Well, my first question to you would be why are you still a member of that congregation? I suspect that you're a woman from your voice. I know what denomination you're talking about and many of our listeners probably do too and I know about those Bible verses and my you know, the way I have dealt with that personally is to say that that was a different time. We are living in another part of history now and we have to take a look at the Bible and and interpret those verses in a different way taking into account that that was when the Bible was written. We looked at women in a different kind of way and I hope that in now we're looking at women who in a more enlightened way but many churches have made great strides in recognizing the gifts of women and I think that that's going to continue There are all kinds of barriers yet. All kinds of pioneers have among the ranks of female. Clergy for instance have fallen by the wayside of burned out of given up. It's been very discouraging the last two decades but things are changing and we're making some progress. I hope that you will find a place that will recognize your particular gifts. And at least that God recognize that God has given you an intellect so that you are capable of voting on congregational matters. Do you think Clark the day will ever come when there will be women priests in the Catholic Church. Well, certainly not in the lifetime of this Pope. He's made it very clear that's his prerogative prerogative. He's the pope. He's the boss. He can make the rules and lots of people in the Catholic Church recognize that that is true and they're willing to be obedient to that but it also is clear that women are taking a much stronger role in the Catholic church for instance now, Since the new canon law of 1985 or 86 women can be Chancellor's of diocese and archdiocese. I mean the chant the position of Chancellor is a very important position. We don't happen to have a female Chancellor here but some archdiocese do I mean that's a very responsible position and in many places particularly in New Ulm Minnesota, we have religious sisters who are administrating parishes and they're doing everything except the the roles that are set aside for the priest to do specifically everything that can be done by a woman or by a lay person is being done in some of those parishes and in the New Ulm diocese. So the Catholic church is not as backward in that regard as lots of people think, you know, the the glaring void in the Catholic church is that they will not allow women priests, but they are Giving women tremendous responsibility and tremendous credit and really taking advantage of some of the gifts that women have to offer. We've got about 10 minutes left with Clark more fuel from the st. Paul newspaper his column appeared today in the Pioneer Press on the topic of what for those who have no chance to see it on the topic of whether or not you should be able to sue your clergyman if he gives you bad advice I say and what is your conclusion? Well, well the conclusion of the Supreme Court of California was that you should not be able to because really going to a clergy news clergyman is more like going to a spiritual guide or maybe even to a friend. I mean when I was in the parish Ministry at all kinds of people who would approach me on the street over the telephone and tell me about things that were happening to them as they might tell a friend and sometimes I would give them advice and sometimes I wouldn't and but if I had given them advice and then something terrible had happened would they have a right to sue me and the Supreme Court of the State of California after you know eight years of looking At this particular case finally decided no clergymen are not the same as professional counselors, which maybe means people should go to professional counselors for some things and not rely on their courage, even for everything. Well, I think the place you might want to start is to go to clergyman say I don't want consoling from you, but I do want you to help me figure out why I'm so depressed and also to figure out where I need to go for some help and that's what clergymen are trained to do. They are not trained to sit in the church office for two years straight and and Consular person. They simply don't have that kind of training on to your question, please Clark Murphy was listening and you're on the air with him now. Hello there. (00:41:34) Good morning. I'm calling from Duluth, Minnesota. There are two places. He's very specifically to giving material gifts to the church in God's promises. One is Malachi chapter 4 verses 8 through 10 will a man rob God bring all the tithes into the storehouse. And you see if I will not open to you the windows of heaven and pour you out a blessing. Next one is Luke 6 verse 38 given it shall be given unto you good measure pressed down shaken together and running over shall men give into your bosom over the same measure that he beat with it shall be measured to you again. (00:42:28) Okay, your question, please the question is or what this listener is saying to me is that I erred and that there are Bible verses that say that God will pay you back for the money you give I say what God is saying in those verses is that he will give you a spiritual blessing not a materialistic blessing and I think that that is the in both of those verses that's what God is saying and I think that is the error that our society and consequently our churches have made making God into some kind of a magician. Who can produce wealth for us? That's not what God is therefore God is there to produce spiritual blessings not materialistic blessings. So you and I have a disagreement ma'am. And I really appreciate you calling in with those Bible verses next to your question, please for Clark more few. Hello there. (00:43:20) Yes, I was interested in your comments about how many people are leaving the church has when in the thousands. Well, could it be because much of the mysticism and the glamour has gone from the churches? Yes, I mean glamour because I when I was younger my younger child. I look forward to going to church on Sundays because it was going to God's house to pray and commune with him and it was such a wonderful thing to me. All right Clark what you (00:43:54) think? Yeah. I think that that's that's true to a certain extent that the liturgies do not communicate the Grandeur and Majesty of God. Us as they once did they're pretty down-to-earth the emphasis on the human Community rather than on the Divine spiritual Community without between you know, the emphasis on communicating with each other rather than communicating with God. I'm hurrying here because we have other callers and we don't have much time but I think that that's all true. And I think also that Mainline churches are not taking prayer. Seriously. I mean how many times you know you go to church and you hear you're the only praying that you do in church is a committee written prayer out of the hymnal or a prayer may be that the preacher wrote in his study and spent two or three hours writing but you're not really taking prayer seriously and there are some communions. There are some fellowships. I should say religious fellowships that will spend two and three hours in prayer at a given time and are When people see that and they say the Zen Buddhist take prayer, seriously. I've never seen a group that takes prayer seriously as the Zen Buddhists they will say and then they go back to their Lutheran Church or their Catholic church and they hear the committee written prayers and they say this is not for me. Well, I suppose the churches have to walk a line though between the Grandeur is our collar liked and what would communicate to the to the average person? I mean, it may be a lot of people don't want to hear all that. That's right. Yeah, there are lots of contemporary type people who who don't want all that Grandeur and that's why there has to be a mix. I mean we can still have intricate liturgies that are beautifully done and and have some contemporary sounds included in those on to your question, please Clark is listening. Hello there. Yep, you're on. (00:45:54) Okay fine. Yeah. I was I wanted to respond to your comments about the who is a Jew controversy. One thing I The comment on is that obviously anyone who was would be Orthodox. Jew would not be listening today because it's Shabbat. That's right. I'm sorry, but I think you said that the that the there's a spillover from Israel from the controversy and Israel and to this country and I actually see it as at there's been that tension between the Orthodox on one hand and the conservative and reform movements on the other hand that is now spilling over into the political arena in Israel. And that basically it's really the difference between fundamentalist religion that says this is the way this is the only way to spirituality or to God and no other way is valid. So we have to do it our way versus the more ecumenical approach which it and say, I think that that fundamentalist view point is built into Orthodoxy in not only in Judaism, but in any religion versus the more ecumenical way that says there may be there there are or there may be very many different pathways. Spirituality or to God and this is our way but otherwise may also be valid. (00:47:07) That's right. This is the first time that the fundamentalist Orthodox position of Judaism has taken part in the elections in Israel to such a strong way and and they did succeed in electing a lot of their people. So it has changed and it will continue to change and you may even see reform and conservative people refusing to send their contributions to Israel because they are considered second-class citizens there and I feel that that may be happening now, we have a couple minutes left and several callers will get through a couple of many way. Hello. You're on the air with clock more fuel. (00:47:49) Yes. I've been involved for several years and working with young people who've been in trouble with the law through the Ramsey County volunteers and Corrections program. Yes, and that seems like an area that our church is ought to be involved in and I finding that Several churches in my own included are somewhat uncomfortable with being involved with that kind of thing. I'd like to hear what Clark has to say about (00:48:09) that. I can remember when I was a student at at Seminary and I was working part-time in a church. And and I we had a youth group of about 50 teenagers something like that and a couple of the boys started pushing each other in the hallway and one night and after ice skating or something and and broke through some plasterboard and I just about lost my job over that because it became clear to me that the building was much more important to that particular congregation. Then people were than kids were and I think when you start a youth ministry, that's really strong. You just have to make you have to plan on making a lot of sacrifices and one of those sacrifices might be that your building gets beat up a bit. But yeah, you bet congregations are nervous about that. Going to cost money and it's going to be an awful lot of energy and I must say also an awful lot of disappointments sometimes. All right one final call. Very brief, please for Clarke Moore few. Hello (00:49:13) there. Yes, good morning. Recently. I've been hearing a lot about the Baha'i faith and I've been told that this is one of the fastest growing religions in the world. Can you comment on that at all? (00:49:24) Praise? The Baha'i faith is a very gentle kind religion that comes out of a ran and the East and they are well, they're established here in Minnesota, but they are not particularly strong, but they have been persecuted in Iran for years and years and years under the Ayatollah and some very brutal things have happened to them. But the MBA Highs are great Believers in a religion that will someday incorporate all of humankind into a community of love and Acceptance and tolerance and that's a nice note to end on Clark. Thank you very much for coming in and sharing. We are with us today Clark more few religion writer for the st. Paul newspapers. His column appears on Saturdays. Midday is made possible by Ecolab and it's Chemlawn subsidiary next week at this time. Alsa Kerman from the pipe from the st. Paul Minneapolis paper will be in to talk about food. This is Bob Potter. You're tuned to ksjn 1330 Minneapolis-Saint Paul, K ns are 88.9 FM Collegeville. St. Cloud and W NS D 109 Point FM Cloquet Duluth superior. All right, Mark what what we got in the way of news and weather here. Well, we're going to catch up.