(00:00:00) Prison sentences are often a controversial topic some folks argue that part of the solution to the crime problem is longer sentences others dispute that theory saying longer sentences would do nothing more than overcrowd our prisons will let you kick this around a little bit today with two guests who have different views on the topic. They are Bob Lots Deputy Chief of Police in Minneapolis. And then Cain director of the sentencing guidelines commission for the state of Minnesota, Dan. Why don't you begin by reviewing what this sentencing guideline business is all about and how we went and why we went from a system of parole to sentencing guidelines, which are fixed in length. Theoretically first Bob. Let me let me just make one correction. I'm the chairman of the commission. There is a staff director Deb (00:00:48) daily. I am an employee. It's an appointed position. So I'm (00:00:52) not the director but prior to guidelines we had an indeterminate sentencing. Game in the state of Minnesota. We're in basically the only decision that the sentencing judge made was the in and out decision whether or not a person went to prison or did not go to prison a judge customarily would sentence someone to a period when he did send him to prison of from zero to five years 0 to 10 years 0 to 20 years, but really that was an artificial sentence in that a parole board would come along in some cases as soon as four months after the the the (00:01:32) offender entered the institution (00:01:35) and decide to release them guidelines were developed for a number reasons to establish rational and consistent sentencing standards, simply because whether or not someone went to prison being left up to the individual judge even that in out decision often times was based on the personality of the judge that you went in front of and Currently there was a lot of shopping around for the right judge to reduce sentencing disparity again deciding that it was important that similar type of fenders served a similar amount of time and that was not always the case in the early parole board. Although it became much more the case as the probe or develop to decision making Matrix along about 1976. And the the last charge of the commission was to ensure that sanctions following the conviction of a felony were proportional to the severity of the offense of conviction and the extent of the criminals the offender's criminal history again, seeing that someone for instance who is convicted of armed. Robbery did not do more time than someone who was convicted of a homicide Bob. Let's do you see anything wrong with the concept of those sentencing guidelines, or is it just that the sentences are too short? (00:03:00) It well, I think it's a failed system completely. I think that indeterminate sentencing that we had up until sentencing guidelines (00:03:07) as Dan Cain has mentioned was a failure. (00:03:11) It had all kinds of problems including disparity for blacks and whites rich and poor those kinds of things and the fact that a criminal would commit a terrible crime in our society a felony crime and the victims in the witnesses and the police and everyone else could see them strolling the streets of Minneapolis or st. Paul or the rest of the state very short time later. The new system sentencing guidelines has given his first of all instead of measuring time and years as mentioned it in months, and we see the prison at the people that should be behind bars because they are dangerous in our society walking our streets committing crime again, and I think we have to go to mandatory sentencing. If you commit the crime you have to everybody black white rich and poor pay the same penalty, and it should not be a discretionary matter for a judge. It should be something you and I and everyone else in society knows before. Commit the crime (00:04:00) Bob Lutz and Dan Kanter with us in the Studio's here. I'll open the phone lines. Now. If you have a question or an observation about sentencing guidelines and the length of sentences that are meted out in Minnesota. You can give us a call in the Twin Cities at 2276 thousand 2276 thousand the Minneapolis st. Paul area and elsewhere within the state. Our toll-free number is 1-800-695-1418. 297.00 Bob do the police feel generally like the rest of the system is letting them down that they're catching the criminals and they're getting some convictions but they're right back out on the street again. (00:04:39) Well, I think we can give anecdotal evidence that on a daily basis South Minneapolis grocery shot to death and all we have to do to solve the cases develop the film in the hidden camera because we deal with these people all the time. We look at their picture. We know their name. We know their birthday. We know their address we go out and pick them up with the situation with the We fully murder. We've dealt with that person. He committed Fort the person charged had previously been involved in committed 14 rapes sentenced for for on a plea bargain and back on our streets in a relatively short period of time they would tell us that what I want to do would fill our prisons. Let's stop and think about that just for a moment. Our prisons are maximum security prisons in Minnesota Stillwater built in the last century housing such notables as cold younger and his gang after the Jesse James bank robbery in Northfield St. Cloud Reformatory built near a rock quarry turn of the century. Again. The only thing we've added to maximum security since then is Oak Park Heights with under 400 beds and a full 100 of those are more have been rented out to other states bringing convicted felons, not their model prisoners, but the worst from other states into Minnesota and can how do you keep these (00:05:57) people from coming back out on the street all the time? Why not? Come up for longer periods of time. Well you is Deputy Chief lets his pointed out you have limited prison resources and until the until and if the legislature is not inclined to build more prisons, then you have to make some decisions based upon the space available. I would point out that in 1973 and 74 the prison populations in this state. We're running right around 1,200 people today. They're up around 2600 and there was discussion during the era of commissioner Corrections Fogle there was discussions to actually close one of the state's prisons and the building of Oak Park Heights was to take the place of Still Water. So there are considerably more people going to prison today for longer periods of time. I would also point out that since the implementation of guidelines the commissioner of Corrections has created an additional Minimum security prison beds in some very creative ways by creating a dormitory space where you used to have individual cells Space by selling off some land to build another Cottage at Lino Lakes and so on and so forth. So we haven't exactly been static you have to ask yourself. What is it that you want to accomplish by having longer periods of time and and and in doing that you have to look at where we are today. They're 41 states in the Union at last count that under some sort of federal mandate to do something about their prison populations. Now that results in States like Texas having to have a waiting list for a judge to send someone into the institution. It also results in massive releases 200 at a time just to get the population down to where it's someone can be admitted into the prison and these are murders and rapists and violent offenders who can't get into prison. Because there is not space Minnesota is lucky in being one of only nine states that is not faced with that problem today at the same time Minnesota while being 21st in population out of 50 states in this nation is actually is 38 in terms of its violent crime ranking. That means that there are only 12 states that have a lower violent crime rate than does the state of Minnesota. And while all that is in place. We are 49th in the number of our citizens that we institutionalize in state institutions that we put in prison. So we aren't we aren't spending a lot of money for what seems to be some fairly successful statistics. (00:08:46) Well our budget Minnesota is (00:08:47) one point seven percent of the of the budget goes for Corrections (00:08:52) where 49th out of 50 states Dimensions, but as we say, well, what do we want to achieve? Well as I speak to the parents of Carrie Coon Rod as I speak to the family members of Mary Foley, they tell me that they would not they would rather not have these people back on the street to commit crimes again and these are two people that are examples because they're fairly recent. There are a lot of examples that are not Minnesota is being touted around the nation is having a good penal system other states are modeling after us and it's a terrible mistake. We could substantially reduce the number of violent crime by putting people in jail for a significant amount of time commensurate with their crime in Minnesota. If you are I commit a burglary today and were convicted we are not going to go to prison if we steal and for the listeners out there if someone steals your car today and destroys it that person is not going to go to prison in the state of Minnesota. Something is wrong with that kind of logic now, they say well that's a lesser offender and not nonviolent Crime Stop a moment for the young man in North Minneapolis when his new Pickup truck is being stolen. He tries to interrupt and he stabbed 12 times and dies of his wounds for the person that comes home and finds a predator in their home on a lesser felony just burglarizing her home but then decides either the rape the woman or to kill the homeowner because to in order to escape we've identified these people we've prosecuted them. They've been convicted. Why can't they do some time for it? Why can't there be a consequence for their (00:10:26) actions? Bob Lutz and Dan caner with us, but lets his Deputy Chief of Police in Minneapolis. And Dan is Chairman of the sentencing guidelines commission. I want to get some folks on the line here with questions for both of you as we continue our discussion about sentencing guidelines. Thanks for waiting. You're on the air now. Go ahead. Hello. Yes. Go (00:10:42) ahead if I have a solution and I think that most people feel the same way Duke that I do at that. I have talked to over the month. I think a rapist or murderer. People that commit a serious crime that they they commit the crime. They should be hung before the sun goes down and then you politicians over there in the state and all you people with your fancy guidelines and fancy conversation. We wouldn't have to worry about these people. Now this guy that committed the murder he had four or five convictions against them. What the hell did you let him out for that's got to be (00:11:23) stupid. All right, Dan Kane, let's let's hear your response to a one gentleman solution. Well, Minnesota has not had capital punishment since 1911, I believe in well, it's been raised in a number of legislative hearings. It has not been something that has gotten a lot of support and it and I don't think that minnesotans are ready for capital punishment. I just don't think that it's really going to happen in terms of the individual in the in the Foley case the person who is the suspect and in the coonrod case the person who I suspect it's important that that we keep one thing in perspective. And that's that. Neither of these people were ever sentenced under Minnesota sentencing guidelines. The suspect in the coonrod case was a suspect was a product of the Nebraska system and has never received Minnesota Justice whatsoever. The suspect in the Foley case was sentenced before sentencing guidelines and while he did receive a relatively creative sentence, he was not sentenced under guidelines and and and you're always going to have no matter who we lock up for long periods of time or forever as long as you let them out or even if you don't let them out you're always going to have instances of Mary Foley's and Carrie Coon rods. You can always use them to point to things and most recent sex offender data that's come out of the Department of Corrections suggest that of those who are released from prison 95% of them do not come back with a new sex offense and only 3% of them come back with New offense other than a sex offense so consequently, that's 92% of them that don't come back at all again. What do you want to accomplish? Hey, Bob, lots of quick rejoinder than on let's go (00:13:09) to the next call and then (00:13:10) I'll call kosher fine. All right, go ahead, please you're on the air with Bob Lutz and Dan cane. (00:13:15) I'd like to hear what is done inside the prison to discourage the prisoners from committing crimes after they get out and compare. What is actually happening in Minnesota these days with what you think would be a more ideal system inside the prison since the idea is to discourage people from committing offences again. (00:13:37) All right, Bob Lutz on your (00:13:38) tackle. I have it on good authority that if you go to Stillwater prison to a cell of a sex offender, the first thing you'll probably see is a good deal of pictures of nudity on the wall and other pornographic pictures and slogans. I think that they are some there are some probably some programs available. They are not required to take part in the programs and pretty much you get back on the street. What you put in there sometime later, I think as part of my idea for mandatory sentences for a for a specific period of time that the person while they're in there have to undergo certain therapy and that every Rehabilitation tool available be made available to the person but in the meantime until we have some surety that they stay there and not walk our streets Parks Ali's ramps and anyplace else they choose to (00:14:28) go but Bob would a mandatory sentence really do any good if the I mean supposing there in there for 10 years instead of four years. They may come out at the end of 10 years and do the same Gall darn thing all (00:14:37) over again. We're talking about sentencing guidelines and I point to the fact that yes, the person arrested in the carry coonrod case was a Nebraska Horror Story could have been a Minneapolis or a Minnesota Horror Story 2 because we have the same kind of system. He was sentenced for 10 years for rape. He was released after four years. We get to a very simple case of arithmetic. He would not have attacked the women in Dakota County which he was arrested for and released. He would not have attacked Mariah Carey coonrod had he been in prison for those additional six years 10 years for raping a woman seems to me to be quite a satisfactory sentence compared to releasing him after a mere four years in the point I make so it's something that people can relate to why should a person that attacks a woman on the street that he does not know and rapes her with Force beyond the street quicker than that woman could have paid for an automobile. (00:15:36) All right, shall we move on or all right, let's do that. Let's move on to your question now. Hello there. You're on the air. (00:15:41) Yes. I'm wondering what the Minneapolis Police Department is doing in regard to upgraded training and also a few kept aware of state employment laws. ah I just wonder relative to what as far as the state employment laws state employment laws in regard to let's say people expected to work more than 40 hours being paid for for ones just input I guess mainly in keeping intact with with newer Technologies and if people are could or you possibly harmed in other ways be assault in in Via use of new technologies and keeping abreast of how new technologies could be manipulated. I guess I feel that I just don't have the foundation answer the (00:16:33) question. I think that's really off the subject of our conversation which is sentencing sentencing guidelines and how to keep some of these people from coming back and doing the same kinds of crimes all over again Dan Kane. What would you do though? I mean, how do you keep these people from from coming back and doing the same crimes again regardless of how long they're in jail, but I'm getting back to an earlier question. There are sex offender treatment programs at both Lino Lakes and Oak Park Heights and sex in the office of adult release has releasing guidelines, which mandate for certain individuals that if they don't seek treatment while in the institution they have to they will be released to a treatment program or not released at all. They will not get their good time. So to speak they'll have to serve the additional time and I said, you know point out also that they're not all police are opposed to So to sentencing guidelines not to take away from officer. Let's but I have a letter in front of me from Anthony Boza that says ironically I've just minutes ago in a tape speech to the downtown rotary said the sentencing guidelines don't need to be changed. They're doing a good job for us. So, you know, there's two Chief and Deputy disagree among themselves. (00:17:49) That's the wonderful thing about a democracy and I'm sure that the the folks out there will make their determination the legislature will debate this but I have seen simply seen too many horror stories of people being injured killed victimized violated in all kinds of Way by people that that they that we expected a system wouldn't have been on the street to do it because they'd already been identified and convicted but I think the interesting thing when we talk about releasing people after good time, let me just stop a moment and say when a person shoots and kills a police officer during an armed robbery is arrested and convicted while he's in custody. He escapes twice while he's in Has to be he takes prison guards hostage while he's in custody. He's indicted for the murder of another inmate and when he's released 16 years later onto our streets they say well he got time for good behavior. What's bad behavior? (00:18:44) If I can just respond a second again that has it's irrelevant to guidelines a particular case in question was sentenced to six years before the development of the guidelines Commission in eight years before sentencing guidelines in the fact that the person did go out as a subject of some in was not charged for the escapes or convicted of the murder. Whatever is other parts of the system 20 minutes past the hour as we continue talking sentencing guidelines with Dan Kane who chairs the sentencing guidelines commission and Bob Lutz Deputy Chief of Police in Minneapolis. We have folks on the line. We also have a couple lines available 2276 thousand in the Twin Cities and Five to nine 700 elsewhere in Minnesota. All right, it's your turn to talk now. Go ahead. Please (00:19:35) well in all that I've heard I'm not hearing much about what causes people to do the things that put them in prison. And as a former teacher, I think it starts right away where you're starting to learn what life is about as a young child and I think we need to think about our education and then not only just the education for everybody. We need to think in particular about how we can can educate and how we can psychologically help people to become safer for everybody to live with and for themselves to live with it. (00:20:17) All right gentlemen, what do you think causes crime good quest to things (00:20:21) two things on that first of all and I agree about some of the deprivations that create a circumstance or an environment where cry. Can breed but first of all, we have to talk about victims to and if your house is on fire, you don't care whether it was caused by spontaneous combustion or arson call the fire department and put it out. And as long as these people are on the street victimizing other citizens, let's deal with that issue until we can find out the cause and solution. The other side of that is what people oftentimes don't realize is for example, black crime black-on-black crime. What often doesn't get reported is the victim of the crime. Is the person in that same neighborhood who went through the same school system who had the same broken home who works for three dollars and fifty cents an hour in a nighttime convenience store and who is shot and killed during a robbery you no one chose to come out of that system and work and try to better himself and other chose to take a gun and commit a robbery we can deal with some of those social problems. But let's handle the monster while he's out in the street (00:21:31) Dan Kane. I think that the trying to figure out what it is that causes people to commit crimes unfortunately is left to greater minds than mine. And I know that you know, personally I feel that there's a certain era permissiveness in today's society. I think the media plays a part of it. I think that the family has been hurt a great deal and is no longer looked upon for instance is the family was when I was growing up. And a lot of different things contribute to it, but I think we need as Chief. Let said to respond to what's going on. Let's move on to our next questioner. Go ahead please you're on the air now. (00:22:16) Hello. I have a question about the type of incarceration that certain folks might receive who do commit repeated violent crimes. I've spoken to several college graduates, if you will to put it in a perhaps a comic context who are reasonable people who have watched the parade of recent events in Minneapolis and metro area take place very violent acts who are somewhat agreement with this rather. Strange idea. I have come up with it seems that there is a how would you say a real difficulty with as I understand that the expense of incarcerating people if there is this great difficulty and a great expense with incarcerating certain types of people for prolonged periods of time. What about the idea of having something somewhat similar to the camps that the Cubans were subjected to and they came to United States people who commit crimes of the nature than Mary Foley and others have been victimized by are basically predatorial. (00:23:34) Okay. So I think you're suggesting similar to the to the Where the Mario people came I don't know if that's something you want to talk about or not. Well, yeah in there are there are different levels of security in our state institutions. The there is a minimum level at Red Wing where in there are no walls and people are housing a Barracks type atmosphere all the way up to the maximum level at Oak Park Heights and the the cost of imprisonment goes up in relationship to the level of security that you have and the number of people that you have in the institutions, but what usually happens is society and rightfully so demands that the people who are the most violent offenders be incarcerated in the most secure facility consequently. That's the reason why we talked about a fairly heavy cost that's not to suggest that they couldn't be moved to other facilities as they neared the end of their sentence, but we do in Minnesota have a Waiting level of security in our present and who decides where they go an Institutional classification Team. All right. (00:24:46) I always liked that that particular range because the Red Wing where 325 walk away every week at will simply leave hitchhike with the nearest motorists and come back to the metro area to Oak Park Heights, which is secure. I would not want to get into this but I think that if you're talking about $30,000 a year to house a maximum security prisoner, I think that that budget could be significantly trimmed, you know, we talked about hospitals and well, let's say schools every kid that had that moves into a district that district is going to provide a school place for him. Maybe a larger class size may be some of these things we're still dealing with 1800 prisons in this state built in the 1800's to uh, two-thirds of the system are better is from the 1800s and for that where else is either not secure at all. So I think that we have to start Looking at the economy of putting prisoners away. It cost us a tremendous amount. Not just the Mary Foley's in the Carrie Coon rods, but everybody that works in Downtown Minneapolis, when a murder like that occurs on a Sunday afternoon or 9:30 in the morning. My position is that we are forcing those costs out on the public women. Bye Mase women by whistles and sound and Screech alarms lock your home's don't go out after night. You you dead bolt your doors in your home there to you making them a firetrap. I think the state of Minnesota has abdicated his responsibilities and she put the deadbolt locks on a new prison and put the criminals inside and let us walk about as we shoot under the Constitution (00:26:22) coming up on half past the hour with Bob Lutz and Dan cane with us talking about sentencing guidelines primarily here in some other prisoners whose go ahead you (00:26:29) next. Yeah, good afternoon. I'm still not quite clear on what the differences are between sentencing guidelines and mandatory sentencing are the guidelines just Just guidelines and a judge really. It's up to him to decide exactly how long somebody should be convicted. All right, Bob quickly. Okay under our criminal code in the state of Minnesota. That is the state of Minnesota through its legislature has said if you commit the crime of burglary, you can do ten years in prison sins and guidelines comes along and says, well, not really you're not going to do that that maximum sentence you're going to use to do significant Less in the case of burglary. You're not going to be sentenced to prison on the first offense. So despite the fact that the state statute says up to 10 years or 20 years or five years or whatever for particular violation sentencing guidelines is significantly less and if it's a property crime, for example, if you steal 15 cars and you're caught and convicted once you're not going to prison at all, so the it makes a mockery of the state law what I would like to see the crime of auto theft burglary rape robbery murder all of these. To have the crime the stated at the time the stated in the criminal code. Be real be meaningful and be mandatory. All (00:27:47) right Dan Kane. Well as the caller pointed out guidelines are guidelines there presumptive of a judge can depart from the guidelines giving virtually any good reason providing he or she can articulate that reason so consequently an individual who falls on the first time burglary if the judge finds that it's a substantially larger lost in the average burglary if there was a certain amount of sophistication in the commission of the crime if there wasn't any one of a number of reasons the judge on his or her best judgment can decide to send that person to prison the the deputy Chiefs contention about sending every auto thief every burglar every whatever into prison for the statutory limit would Alton basically 25 thousand inmates in the state of Minnesota in five years. We now have twenty eight hundred inmates. So that's an increase of a thousand percent. If you have someone who steals a thousand dollar car and drives around with it and leaves it parked two blocks away from your home. Does it make sense to lock that person up for a year at a cost of $30,000 frankly. I think that makes the public the victim society as a whole the victim. (00:29:07) I like the example you use because that thousand dollar car maybe the very item that the victim is paying thirty six (00:29:16) months to pay for and needs that car to go to work and has been (00:29:23) victimized and I think the person that committed the crime should do the time. I don't believe they would add 25,000 new prisoners a year because I think that the people out there that commit crime right now with not much thought would consider the consequences (00:29:38) and Of them would alter their (00:29:40) conduct and also by taking them off the street for that specific amount of time. We would not be adding a hundred more police in Minneapolis or anywhere else because we wouldn't be dealing with them at the same rapidity that we are with the revolving door system of justice. We now have (00:29:55) let's move on to our next question or hello there. You're on the earth. Thanks for (00:29:58) waiting. Marvelous to early as well, but I'm also concerned that when they are released. They're not supervise a person who commits a violent rape can be out in two and a half years and be free. There's no a person could be on probation longer for a much lesser offense and how can a person who's been incarcerated, you know been taken care of virtually for two and a half years be put back out on the streets and be expected to not do any more violent crimes. I I'd like to hear your guests comment on that and I'll hang up (00:30:38) right. Let's start with Dan Kane. Well virtually everyone who is released is released under to some sort of supervision arguably that may or may not be sufficient for the particular individual. And and one thing that the Attorney General's task force on sexual violence is looking at is whether or not that term of supervised release. Lease is long enough guideline sentences are broken down into thirds for instance. Someone sentenced to three years in prison would do two years behind bars and served the final year of the final 12 months on supervised release providing he or she did not act out sufficiently while they were incarcerated to lose what we term good time have these guidelines been changed much since they were first put in place some somewhere early in the 80s. They've been changed almost on a yearly basis every year the legislature creates new crimes that need to be ranked. But in addition to that the commission on its own makes determinations that certain crimes are not ranked sufficient for their severity in 1986. For instance. First offender for second-degree murder would be would be sentenced to nine years in prison and serve six the commission again. Its own made the decision with some input from the County attorneys Association to raise that so that now a first offender second degree murder is sentenced to 18 years and only serves 12 in the in the mid 80s. There was a Viewpoint in society that cocaine was not a dangerous drug and up until that time cocaine was listed in the guidelines Grid in the same area as marijuana the guidelines Commission on its own made a decision to move cocaine to an area where it's now ranked with heroin and other dangerous drugs, but those are the kinds of things that on a yearly basis we evaluate another big change that's being proposed right now last year. The legislature asked us to look at developing guidelines for people who don't go to prison for people who are placed on probation. Okay, Bob (00:32:56) Lutz one of the tragedies and I think the flaw in the fabric that has The system to fail is that it began with the idea that take existing space use the existing resources and set this Matrix. So a statistician really sat down and decided Well, we want to put the murder in jail for some period of time and how many bids do we have and they work out this Matrix and that's why people suddenly fall off the Matrix for auto theft and burglary and robbery and some of these crimes because for example right now the Attorney General's got a committee looking at this very thing and if they increase the number of years that a rapist will spend in jail and recommend that to the legislature and that's approved. You know, what's going to happen some other lesser offender that you will find in your bedroom or your living room will not go to prison because they're going to work within existing resources and we're still going to only use the to 1800 vintage prisons and the few beds at Oak Park. (00:33:59) I would just Point out that people who don't go to prison do not get off scot-free 20% of the people who are imprisoned who are convicted of felonies in the state of Minnesota go to state institutions, but an additional fifty three percent are locked up in county jails, so consequently 73 percent of the people who were arrested and convicted of felonies go to jail for for some time (00:34:24) some short time and what they've done is shifted the state burden to the counties, which the counties can ill afford and by putting short-term felons into County workhouses in jails. They have destroyed the municipal ability to handle misdemeanants. And therefore the person that punches you in the mouth is for no reason and completely unprovoked as you walk down. The street will not go to jail because the judge says well, it's really a misdemeanor and I'm not going to put them in the workhouse with felons. And anyway, we filled the workhouse with some of the burglars that have not gone to the State Penitentiary the state of Minnesota has abdicated. Created its responsibility to incarcerate dangerous criminals and is screwed up the entire (00:35:05) system. Let's move on shall we to our next question are we have a full set of phone lines here? Go ahead, please you're next. (00:35:12) Well, there's a couple of things I wanted to mention one is all you talk about is what the state what is supposed to do to these people and such. I wanted to mention first that you know, there's only two countries in the world to have more people in prison than the US. Those are the Soviet. I mean per million people the Soviet Empire and South Africa and those are also the only two countries in the world that give longer sentences for the same crime, (00:35:39) sir. Could you get to your question right away, please because there are a lot of people waiting. (00:35:44) Hmm. (00:35:45) All right, let's move on to the next person who is waiting and ask him or her to briefly State their question. Thank you for calling. Hello there. (00:35:53) Hi, the question I've got is more theoretical it has to do with the behavioral. Act of the exposure people get through television the glorification of violence Etc and some very fragile ages when people make these pairings with sexual gratification and to what degree genetics are individual differences may come into play. I obviously am curious what your ideas are about that, but I'm just wondering to what degree we still have any belief that television or just massed movie exposure. Sure the tag play in this right? Okay, I would absolutely believe that there is a correlation there. We are a society a washing violence. We entertained we entertain ourselves with violence on television and movies every single day of the week. We breed our children with the in front of a television set to to watch this where I doubt that you could turn into one nice television and I see a woman violently raped on television. I think what we hear what we are saying to society and to our Children and to everyone is that's okay. That's permissible and we even entertain ourselves with it. It's part of the problem. (00:37:07) Certainly Dan deputy chief. Let's and I have found something on which we agree a hundred percent. All right, let's move on to your question, please for our two guests a little (00:37:17) there. Hello. Yes your honor. Could you address white collar crimes the severity of the white collar crime and the sentencing guidelines that apply to first offenders and how they're housed and then what usually happens to them and how they've you know guideline that area I'll hang up and (00:37:38) listen. Okay Dan Kane. Well, it's difficult to Define white collar crime in the guidelines. For instance. We have the state has a statute theft crimes over $2,500 that particular crime is ranked as severity level. Let me find my grid here. I believe it's severity level 4 Okay, but there is a reason to depart in the Minnesota sentencing guidelines that says the offense is substantially involves a substantially larger amount of money than the normal offense would have which gives the judge a reason to go against the guidelines and say this person was more sophisticated stole more so on and so forth and what is normally and customarily the average theft over 2500 and would send that could send that person to prison in last year the legislature created a crime theft over $35,000 to make it a little bit easier for the judges and a little bit easier for the prosecutors to get people sent to prison that is ranked at severity level 6 which calls for imprisonment basically on the second offense. (00:38:51) What we're saying is the person that just ripped you off to the caller if they've through white-collar means forgery let's say have taken. Dollars from you they are not going to go to prison and that's my point. (00:39:07) Let's move on 20 minutes before they are Bob Lutz and Dan Kanter with this Bob Lutz is Deputy Chief of Police in Minneapolis danke and chairman of sentencing guidelines commission. And you're on the air with him now. Go ahead, please. (00:39:17) Well. I just wanted to comment that I think this is an education problem. This is these are the loose cannons falling off the decks of our lower schools. And I'm wondering is there isn't there a better solution than locking people up and throwing away the key don't we all have responsibility to deal with the problems that our education system and our society creates. (00:39:38) Well, I think you you raise an interesting question. And theoretically I think you're right that some things need to be done at the preventive end. But at the same time we have to deal with the problems that we have right in front of us. And for that reason we have such things as sentencing guidelines and Bob Lutz addressed this earlier, too. So let's move on to your question for our guests. Hello there. You're on the air (00:40:02) well with our finite resources and public safety concerns and costing $30,000 a year to put somebody away. Both mayor's recently requested more police. And if you were hiring more youth workers to get these people early the other concern that wouldn't that be a better way to apply the resources and then the risk of getting involved with organizations such as Amicus to try to smooth their path back into society has always intrigued me. I'm glad you brought up those comments because number one as a police official in Minneapolis. One of the concerns. I have that when we talk about hiring more cops that we stop and look at the fact that on a daily basis. We fill our detox facility in Hennepin County on a daily basis. We fill the jail too far beyond its capacity. City on a daily basis we can bring the efforts of the City attorney in the county attorney's office to a standstill by the productivity of our police department. And therefore there has to be growth now the mayor's message yesterday. He talked about adding additional prosecutors to the City attorney which is in the purview of the mayor and city council. They also asked for the state legislature to look at sentencing guidelines in the problems that the cities face because of that they've also looked and the mayor said that if he rather than hire cops in addition to what he asked for that he would much rather spend that money on youth workers and and hopefully divert some of these young people from a life of crime. (00:41:42) All right, let's move on then to your question for our two guests either. (00:41:46) Hello. Yes. I just have a comment about this youngster down in Rochester that ax is family on the judge's decision to treat him as a juvenile and let him out. Essentially at 19 probably a good idea for kid won't have a place to stay or anything and I think the Judge ought open his home and take them in with him. That's my comment. (00:42:15) Doesn't really relate to sentencing guidelines. Let's move on. Shall we? Thank you for calling you're on the air (00:42:20) now, right? I just like to know why is there never any liability when a when a criminal is released and commit another crime? Everybody says well, you know, it's not our fault couldn't the state or these people be sued for this. You know, that's something I've often thought of you know, if I'm on my way to work and wreck the front end of my car and a giant pothole. I think I might seek reparations from the state of Minnesota if my daughter is stabbed to death in a Downtown parking ramp or wherever I think that the people should be looking for reparations. If it's (00:42:57) shown that there was no Rhyme or Reason to letting the person out there are a number of philosophies is sentencing and one of them is as incapacitation. That means that you make a determination on who's likely to (00:43:15) Reoffend and (00:43:16) keep that person in prison for a longer period of time the most accurate predictive instrument that we have today is right about as often as a flip of a coin consequently that particular philosophy was rejected by the state of Minnesota. And one of Just Desserts was was initiated. It's impossible with today's knowledge to determine who is going to reoffend and who is not now that leaves you with the alternative of keeping everyone locked up longer which is something that can be done. But there's a price that has to be paid in order to do that. (00:43:58) That is also however payment for the crime committed and at this point our society, I'm not too interested in predictability for future criminal conduct nor deterrence for other people what I'm looking basically at if you stab someone one to death You should not be on the street for years later to do that again. You should still be paying for the first one and really I'm saying pay for the crime. (00:44:28) If you stab someone to death you'll be in prison for 12 years under current (00:44:32) guidelines. Unless (00:44:34) Last Summer the bargains it down to man's (00:44:36) land or it's like the recent case where the fellow served four and a half. No, (00:44:41) no well and let me just back up the recent case. The fellow was not sentenced under sentencing guidelines. It is a very interesting story. It was under the old parole decision making Matrix the judge called the parole board and said if I sentence this guy to 0 to 20 to 25 years, which at that time was maximum for second-degree murder. How much time will he do in the parole board said, well, we according to our Matrix he do about 8 years depending upon his behavior in the institution the judge decided to do the parole board of favor and save them the step of having to do that and sentence the individual. Eight years. He then gave him his year in jail off his sentence and did not realize that that now seven-year sentence expired in four and a half years. There's no way that person could have done one more day at a (00:45:30) time. But mandatory sentences would take that out of the hand of a judge. Once the conviction came in the prisoners fate would be cast by the state legislature and it would be equal for everyone all the (00:45:42) time other than raising the prison population. You have any objection to mandatory sentences Dan? Well, it's not something a man in a sense. What you have in guidelines is a type of determinate sentencing you're saying that people will go for this amount of time. And in fact, you will do this amount of time in the institution and a third of the time out on the streets. Mandatory sentences is sentence by the legislature really kind of infringes on the judicial area government. I mean part of the purposes of having a judge other than presiding over the proceedings is to set sentence in our constitution. That's the branch of government wherein that lies and I think that's where it belongs. All right, let's move on to some more folks with questions here for Bob Lutz and Dan Keen. Thanks for calling. You're on the air now. (00:46:36) Hello. I'm the question I have is in regard to an issue. That's kept come that's come up over and over again in this they've been addressing this issue and it's been the question of jail space the number of beds available and the resources what I'm what I'm wondering about is how is it that you know, we're faced with these problems. Everyone is aware of them. But with every election campaign this the state senators and state representatives always get a lot of mileage out of talking about how much they're against taxes and how much they're going to lower taxes and yet we're faced with the fact that Minnesota citizens citizens are being victimized by people where we just don't have space to keep them in Corrections. Like what's the deal? You know, I mean, you know are they concerned about the citizens of Minnesota when they're saying we're going to lower your taxes. You don't have faced many taxes. So elect me, you know, I like to hear the comment any (00:47:25) comments on that. It's important to keep in mind that we are 38 out of 50 states in terms of our violent crime ranking, you know, the people in Minnesota while there are certainly some some high-visibility crimes that have taken place as of late in their tragic tragic over all the people in Minnesota are safer than their population would suggest in terms of prison space again, the guidelines commission is not bound by prison spaces people would have you believe we're under orders from the legislature to give substantial consideration to existing resources, and we do that but in fact, Akhtar commissioner has very creatively found ways to come up with an additional two or three hundred beds since in the past two or three years. So we are we sentence people are we set sentences for people and if they result in overcrowding then the commissioner find space for them. (00:48:30) I really believe that this whole issue must be debated and discussed and I think quite frankly when the next time politicians come knocking on your front door and talk about lowering taxes. That might be a good question is simply how does how does lowering taxes when we're dealing with prisons built in the late 1800s keep us safe that the citizens of Minnesota are being victimized and I don't take great pride in where we rank in the among the 50 states when our people are being victimized by folks that have been identified as Predators have been prosecuted. Affected and the witnesses and victims have some Assurance they're going to be taken out of society and they're not there right back on our streets. (00:49:17) We have about 10 minutes left with our two guests Bob Lutz and and Kane will go to your question next. Hello there. (00:49:23) I would like to know why they don't separate criminals who are known to have a record of being dangerous and violent from first-time offenders who are otherwise law-abiding citizens of may have made a mistake such as driving while intoxicated why they don't segregate these people from each other so that the hardened criminals don't commit crimes against otherwise law-abiding citizens who may have made a mistake. All right, (00:49:53) Dan kneen well, they generally do you more violent offenders are housed at Oak Park Heights. Once they reach the state system and even within the confines of the institution, there are 20 bit 20-person quad units. Dinner set up. So there is some segregation that takes place even within the institution in terms of the workhouse is the DWI offender to which you alluded. Usually that person does his or her time in the work release unit and is kept separate from the general population where you may have people who have committed felonies and on to your question now for Dan Canaan Bob Lutz. Hi there (00:50:38) good afternoon. I have a kind of a two-part question relating to people who get beat up in the streets. I know that happens a lot around Minneapolis around downtown. Do you think the tougher sentencing guidelines might be a deterrent and you think that might do anything to prevent the deputy chief Lux and his men from beating up the political demonstrators? Sure I can I can respond to that. First of all, yes, I believe that a change mandatory sentences for felons would would reopen the workhouse for Minutes that commit crimes in our streets that are not going to prison and and should not and the second part of the question as far as beating up protesters. Let's be fair were also the ones that serve coffee and donuts (00:51:25) on the your question now for deputy chief lots and Dan Kane. Hello there. (00:51:29) Hi my question has to do with parole boards and specifically two parts. How are people who serve on these boards selected and what are their qualifications vis-à-vis sensitivity to victims and the nature of sexual offenses. I'm concerned about the fact that sexual offenders traditionally and historically have been treated less severely as I think the population now seems to think they should be treated and and they're released more readily in the past and I think a lot of people feel they should be now. I'll hang up and listen. (00:52:06) Thanks. Dan can do even have a parole board. Eliminated the parole board, I believe in 1982. We now have what's called in office of supervised release the decision on how long to incarcerate a person in an institution is left wholly up to the sentencing judge at this time. There is no parole board who comes along and let someone out early but the office of supervised release determines how a person will leave the institution whether he or she will go directly to the streets to a residential placement or to some kind of treatment. All right. Now your turn to talk to our two guests. Hello there. You're on the air. (00:52:47) Yes. I like to ask the guests question. But before that preface with a couple of remarks If you go to either Downtown Minneapolis or st. Paul the police on a personal basis as suggested people if they don't have a reason to go down there in the evening by themselves. Don't go down there. On the other hand the business people downtown, Minneapolis. Big ads in the paper. Come on down. All right, but I'm saying simply is that the business people want to see the condition improve. So the negative of crime is removed. So they're actually going in the same direction, but the people who are making decisions Affecting the amount of time a prisoner should be incarcerated are not the people but our group of I think the public should be allowed to have some type of boat and regarding a crimes. I think what okay, what you say is is is partly true. First of all, we do want people to come downtown and use our city and the safer or the more people using the streets the safer. They are that we are not simply going to give up our streets in our community to hoodlums. We're not going to do it by the other on the other hand though. I think the state legislature has to has to help us and prevent us from having a society where crooks are walking the street (00:54:20) getting down near the end of the hour. Let's put a couple more people on the air here and then let let us know things. Hello there. You're on the (00:54:25) air. Thank you. My first question is you refer periodically to the workhouse. I'm not familiar with exactly what that is. Is that involve some kind of corporal punishment. I mean it's physical. It's hanging type of work. No, unfortunately, it's a lock up in the workhouse. That title is a throwback to when it was when they in fact did potato farming some things out there. All right now is color television and lay around until you're (00:54:49) released and another comment sir. All right, let's move on to our next question. I guess is that what's up? Okay, you're on now. Go ahead. Please around with Bob Lutz and and (00:54:57) Kane. Yes. I've been I've been listening to the program today and I guess has been one issue that I have haven't heard anything about that's been juvenile crime in Minnesota. I've worked with juveniles for two years and it became very frustrating seeing the same juveniles come in and out of the system with apparently nothing being done. (00:55:15) All right, Dan cane word is juvenile crime fit into the picture. I don't I'm not qualified to speak on that. The sentencing guidelines do not apply to the Juvenile Justice System nor do they apply to misdemeanant and gross misdemeanor crimes. (00:55:29) I am a I'm a former juvenile officer in the Minneapolis Police Department and I can say very definitely that I share the same frustration. We are actually preparing some of these people for future failure as adults by not getting tough initially when they come in with crimes. For example, the person that commits a violent crime that beats a woman up and takes her purse and is and is not treated firmly is going to repeat that conduct because there were no consequences for the action. We talked about delinquent acts folks delinquent acts are staying out after 10 o'clock at night and doing some minor vandalism perhaps when you take a knife or a gun and start attacking other citizens, that's a crime in whatever your age you should have be held accountable. (00:56:13) Your turn to talk to Bob Lutz and Dan can now go ahead. Please (00:56:16) recognize that you're almost at the end of the program and I think that one of the things that has not been mentioned is the fact of race and crime as it relates to guidelines of sentencing and I think once you make mandatory sentencing for specific crime rather than having plea bargaining and you can get off if you got money all those types of things once you make the sentence commensurate with the crime right across the board, I think you would take out all of the other elements that get you a lot of the editorial comments and all of the concerns about race and class as relates to Crime. Thank you. I believe there's a high degree of accuracy and what that gentleman has just said and it bothers me that they a white forger can do no time at all for a $2,500 theft and a black man who till taps. Can wind up in jail there is a disproportionate amount of people in prison that are black and and I think that mandatory sentencing would be seen as fair for everybody black white rich and poor (00:57:23) Dan cane I think you may have the last word here. The guidelines specifically state that sentencing should be neutral with respect to race color creed education employment. So on and so forth and and the guidelines, in fact were developed in part to address this issue and have done so fairly. Well, I think officer let's comment about whether or not a black man who till tabs goes in a man white man who forges goes depends in great part on how the County Attorney charges the offenses if the offense a tilt happiness charged a simple robbery then yes, in fact the black man may go and after the white man charged with forgery is charged with forgery uttering a forged instrument under $300 than it's entirely likely he will do no time, but And that gets back to how its charged in the county attorney's Arena. I can tell you from the guideline standpoint whether or not a man is or woman is Black or White within a given crime category in a given criminal history. The sentence is the same and there we must end gentlemen, though. The debate obviously will go on. Thank you very much for coming in Dan Kane chairman of the sentencing guidelines commission for the state of Minnesota and Bob Lutz Deputy Chief of Police City of Minneapolis.