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SPEAKER 1: Part of selling the Dow industrials were down 11 points early in the session. The analysts said today's early selling was fairly typical for a stock market that has just passed another milestone, of course, yesterday moving through the 2,400 level. But the selling appears to be history now with the Dow Jones Industrial average standing at 2416.48 up 10.94. The transportation index is down 1.38, and 15 utilities are down 1.72.

Midday comes to you over Minnesota Public radio, which is, as you know, a member supported broadcast service. KSJN Minneapolis Saint Paul is the news and information service of MPR. In the Twin Cities area now skies are sunny, and its 62. Today's broadcast of Midday is made possible in part with financial assistance from the James R. Thorpe Foundation. And the time is 12 o'clock. Early childhood development is the topic of our broadcast this hour with a couple of nationally recognized experts in the studios.

And we'll have the telephone lines open for your questions for them in just a moment. Both are affiliated with the Department of Child Study at Tufts University. Dr. David Feldman is director of graduate studies at the department. And his particular field is creativity, cognitive development and giftedness. He's now studying child prodigies and exploring how children's intellectual capabilities can be monitored. Our other guest today is Dr. Sylvia Feinberg. She is an art educator who has some thoughts on art and the development of young children.

They're spending this week at the College of Saint Catherine in Saint Paul, which is sponsoring A Week of the Young Child. And the two guests are giving some lectures and conducting some classes at Saint Catherine's. And we're delighted that you were both able to come over here and be in our studios today. Let me begin before we open up the phone lines for listener questions, and see if we can just get a little basic information out on what sorts of things you are doing and what sorts of things you are learning about childhood development. Sir.

DAVID FELDMAN: Well, you mentioned that I've been studying child prodigies, and that's been my major activity for the last 10 years. I've just finished a project where I've watched six families with six different children in several different fields, music and chess and writing and science. And I've watched the families and the development of these kids and tried to see how it is that potential gets expressed.

SPEAKER 1: And what do these kids have in common? You said, different fields. They must have some things in common.

DAVID FELDMAN: There have a number of things in common, but the most overwhelming is an enormous talent for the kind of thing that we're going to do. In addition to that, they also have a kind of inner confidence, a feeling that they have a great gift and that they're somehow or rather put on this Earth to express that gift.

SPEAKER 1: All right. And Dr. Feinberg, what have you learned in the things that you've been studying?

SYLVIA FEINBERG: Well, I'm particularly interested in the artistic development of very young children. What little children do with magic markers and paste and glue and all that kind of thing. Of particular interest is themes. What children draw at particular ages, why they draw what they do. I've been particularly interested in gender differences.

SPEAKER 1: What have you learned about that, for example?

SYLVIA FEINBERG: Well, that in the very early years there aren't dramatic distinctions between the sexes. And that both boys and girls scribble in pretty much the same way. But by the time children are four or five, certainly six, the implications of gender reveal themselves in what children draw. Little boys being particularly interested in more aggressive themes, dinosaurs, animals, eventually war pictures. Little girls interest in more, even today, conventionally pictorial pleasant things, rainbows, hearts and flowers. And little boys moving on, as I said, into battle themes. Little girls moving on to a whole host of things related to people and horses.

SPEAKER 1: Well, I suspect that a lot of folks who are listening today would like to have your thoughts on what they can do as parents to further the development of their children to encourage whatever gifts and skills that they have in particular. What do you think about that, Dr. Feinberg?

SYLVIA FEINBERG: Well, I think what's really important for parents of young children is to make certain that media is available, magic markers, crayons, the usual kinds of things.

SPEAKER 1: You're not talking about television here?

SYLVIA FEINBERG: No, no.

SPEAKER 1: All right.

SYLVIA FEINBERG: By media, I mean the old crayon, the old magic marker, scotch tape. And we could talk a bit about what parents can do to set that up optimally if it's of interest to people. But certainly providing children with the space, the kinds of tools that are needed and encouraging early development artistically. I don't think that everybody's always aware of the fact that what you draw in the early years leads to eventually what you write as well as what you draw later, because it's the beginning of graphic expressive activity.

SPEAKER 1: Dr. Feldman, how much control do you think parents have over the intellectual capacities of their kids? Isn't that set pretty much by the time they're born or at conception even?

DAVID FELDMAN: They have 100% control over what the expression is of their child's capabilities. And they have absolutely no control over whatever it is that evolution confers on their child. The fact is that regardless of what it is that comes to the child biologically, the expression of talent is an enormously challenging activity.

And the last thing I would want anybody to think is that you have no control over anything because there's a biological aspect. Of course, there's a biological aspect, but that doesn't in any way reduce the responsibility of responding to what those possibilities in children are.

SPEAKER 1: Well, we'll get some of your ideas on what parents can do practically on that as soon as I give out the telephone numbers. If you have a question for either of our two guests, you're certainly welcome to call us in the Twin Cities. The phone number is 227-6000, 227-6000. And in other parts of Minnesota, toll free, 1-800-652-9700.

If you're listening in one of the surrounding states, you can call us directly in the Twin Cities at area code 612, and the Twin Cities number is 227-6000. So, Dr. Feldman, the parents have absolute control. What do you mean by that? What can they do to provide an environment that will enhance the kid's growth?

DAVID FELDMAN: Well, let's try to be a little clearer. I don't mean to say that whatever happens to the children is totally a function of what parents do. I just want to make sure we don't suggest to anyone that they should leave everything up to either the natural process or up to the schools or really up to anybody, but to take full part in what is their responsibility, which is to try as much as one can to be as responsive to the possibilities that the child presents and to make that a kind of continuous process.

I don't want to lay it on parents so heavily that they think that if they don't do this and they don't do that and they don't do the other thing, that some terrible tragedy is going to be conferred on their child. It's just I want to get out of that business of its gifts of the gods or whatever and that's that. And it's not even true with the prodigies. And the most extreme cases, it still takes enormous dedication on the part of parents to do the job well.

SPEAKER 1: We have a number of folks on the line with questions, which doesn't surprise me in the slightest. And I think we ought to get to them right away. We have our first caller waiting. Hello. You're on now.

CALLER: Hello.

SPEAKER 1: Yeah.

CALLER: I was wondering, I have an eight-year-old that seems to be drawing a lot of the army-type battle pictures. And I heard that mentioned. Is that pretty normal for eight-year-old boys to go through that stage?

SPEAKER 1: Dr. Feinberg.

SYLVIA FEINBERG: Yes, it is very typical. I think it's often of concern to people today. They hear about children being involved in producing battle pictures and think it's the result of television and general media. The truth of the matter is that as long as child art has been recorded-- and that goes back into the 1880s-- there has been good documentation of children cross-culturally producing battle pictures. And you can pretty well predict when it's going to happen.

It happens seven, eight years of age. It goes on even into 11 or 12 years of age. I think that children are struggling with issues of power, control, authority, and they move to towards the most ultimate set of symbols that embraces those concepts. So it's very common. Children often displace those themes with athletic events, industry, other kinds of subject matters which are more socially appropriate.

And I think it's really very difficult for parents to recognize the fact that this is going to move on and be replaced by other things, barring other kinds of extreme problems. I'm not suggesting that every child who makes battle pictures is free of other problems, but many normal, healthy children engage in this activity.

SPEAKER 1: Dr. Sylvia Feinberg and Dr. David Feldman are in the studios today. They're from Tufts University. Experts in childhood development and creativity and art. And we are taking questions about that topic from you. And you're next. Hello.

CALLER: Hello. I have a question for Dr. Feinberg. We have a son who is now 14 and has been identified as gifted. When he was in preschool, he was drawing pictures that we thought were glorious. We made the media available to him. He was drawing pictures of knights on horses against a backdrop of castles that actually had stained glass windows that he colored in beautifully. And we tried to give him a number of art experiences outside the home and outside of preschool.

It seemed that once he got into the regular mainstream gifted child program here in St Paul, there was a sudden decrease in his art production. He has gone on in graphic arts. He's a good writer, but suddenly there was nothing done in art, and we wondered if it was that suddenly he was performing for someone else who was passing judgment on his art. We didn't know what had happened that all of a sudden the beautiful things that we saw just coming out in reams just ceased. Do you have any comments?

SYLVIA FEINBERG: Yes. I do. Certainly it would be difficult for me to pass judgment on what happened in a given school situation, and I wouldn't want to set about that task. But even under the most optimum circumstances, there is a reduction in the kind of apparent vitality that one sees in the preschool years as contrasted with the early elementary school years. As children grow older, they look more to what is right, how other people draw, what is socially acceptable.

They're also learning to read and more involved in traditional academic subjects. And so a lot of creativity and picture making goes underground. Sometimes you see it happening at home with more vitality than it is happening in school. So you have a kind of withdrawal and concern for doing things appropriately that manifests itself developmentally. At the same time, certainly environmental things are playing their part.

And if there are lots of worksheets and lots of imposition in terms of how to do things and what's right, and if other children as well as adults are putting pressure on in terms of the correct way to do things, then you're going to see some general reduction of vitality. On the other hand, it's kind of a critical period and kids go through it, struggle through it and often return. Sometimes a child who's very gifted artistically and is very generative artistically is generative in lots of other ways as well.

And you see that the child is moving more towards writing, towards storytelling, towards social activities, and that explains some of the reduction. So as Dr. Feldman was suggesting before, you have native abilities interacting with environmental things and the child at seven, eight, nine or 10 is particularly vulnerable to the culture and what is considered good and appropriate, what is being valued at school. And all these things are influential.

It doesn't mean that there aren't things we can do to try and keep it alive, and that there aren't things that will happen in the future that will see a renaissance of the same kind of generativity of the preschool years. I also think it's important to recognize that one of the reasons little kids are so able to be generative is they're kind of naive intellectually, and they don't always know how other people view what they're doing. As they become more socially aware, they're a little bit more vulnerable.

SPEAKER 1: Dr. Feldman, a brief question for you. How do parents recognize giftedness in a kid? And at what age does it show up, and what should they do about it when they first think they see it?

DAVID FELDMAN: Well, there are really two different notions of giftedness, and it's important that parents be aware of both of them. One of them is kind of the official school system giftedness. And that has to do normally with doing well on academic talent kinds of tests. And if a child does well on such a test, he may well or she may well be identified as a gifted child. What that means is that the child is likely to do well in school.

There's another kind of giftedness, and that has to do more with general qualities that may or may not be school relevant that may have to do with other things altogether. We just spoke about one, artistic capability, musical capability, and so on. And these are much less likely to be found in the course of the normal kind of school routine. I think these are the ones that parents should be particularly sensitive to and should be watching for carefully and keep track of and keep alive just in the case, we just we discussed.

That these kinds of things are often not responded to well in the normal school situation. And if the gifts are there, then it's critical to try to keep track of them and to keep them alive during the school years.

SPEAKER 1: Moving on to some more folks with questions now. Hello, you're on the air.

CALLER: Hello.

SPEAKER 1: Yes.

CALLER: Hello. My name is Donna Ruff, and I am calling from Saint Paul. And my question is about raising a child bilingual. After I have been working-- I am a teacher. I decided to stay home to raise them. And I find that people tell me not to raise them bilingual because that may hinder their performance in school in the future. My question is, is there any research that shows that? And if not, what are the suggestions for me to really raise them fully bilingual?

SPEAKER 1: Dr. Feldman, do you want to tackle that one?

DAVID FELDMAN: I think it's a complicated question because bilingual can mean a lot of different things. I think what the experts might say is that it's very important to make sure that the child learns the new language well enough to be able to survive in school and to be able to thrive in the wider culture. Given that that's attended to, then it seems to be not at all a bad idea. In fact, quite a good idea to keep the original language, the first language, alive and well and functioning.

And I see no disadvantage to that. And, in fact, there was a wise philosopher who said that, no one really understands his own language until he's learned another. So I think there are some real benefits to it, so long as it doesn't stand in the way of the child succeeding well in the school situation.

SPEAKER 1: Today's studio guests are Dr. David Feldman, whose particular expertise and interest is child prodigies at the moment, exploring children's intellectual capabilities, and Dr. Sylvia Feinberg, who focuses on the art expressions of young children. Both are affiliated with the Department of Child Study at Tufts University. And they're in the Minnesota area today to participate in a series of seminars at the College of Saint Catherine in Saint Paul. You've got a question for either of them. Go ahead, please. You're next.

CALLER: Yes. One of my questions was partially answered, I guess. I was glad to hear that you addressed the definition of giftedness. I think there are some parents and members of the public in general who are a bit uncomfortable with that definition as it stands. We talk about gifted/talented many times in the schools that are gifted and talented. People leave off the label, talented, and they simply refer to the children as gifted.

I'm wondering for the vast majority of those students in the school who are not really gifted by your more precise definition, for those students do you perceive any problem with their identity? Have you done any studies along that line? And what can we do to incorporate some of the same teaching processes in other schools? As I see it--

SPEAKER 1: I think we'll get to the doctor's response here.

DAVID FELDMAN: I think it's a very serious problem. I think that the term gifted is an unfortunate one. I think we would probably have been better off to have chosen another designation like academically talented for what is now referred to as gifted. Given that that's happened, then we have to try to do the best with the situation as we know it. And what I would say is that it does cause problems, I think, for certain children to be labeled gifted, particularly ones who have an academic talent and for other children to be not so labeled.

My own point of view-- but I don't know how much good this will do-- is that the truth is that all children are gifted in some important ways. And that the burden of responsibility on the part of the school system and, of course, their families is to try to identify what those special qualities are in each child. And that it's the responsibility of families and school systems to try to find those and value those in all of the children.

I'm not a supporter of children being singled out and being put into special classes when that's all that's done in the school system. And I think it does create a separate group, and I'm not in favor of it. It does happen. I understand why it happens. I think it's a serious problem. I guess I'd like to see something done about it. I'm glad you called.

SPEAKER 1: Do you think that school systems nationwide in general do enough for those who are so-called academically gifted or who have other special talents be it music or art or whatever?

DAVID FELDMAN: Reality is that our schools don't do enough for anybody. They don't do enough for the academically talented kids. They don't do enough for the kids who aren't particularly academically talented. And they certainly don't do enough for the kids who have specific talents and all the many areas that the culture should be valuing. The school systems tend to do whatever they do for the academically talented child.

If there is a program in a school system, it tends to be for the child who does well academically. And that's fine. There's not a problem doing that if there were things for other children as well. And I know it's a controversial issue. And it could get me into a lot of trouble saying what I'm saying. But I question the value of making that kind of decision and going the academic talent route and forgetting about the other stuff, because the other stuff is just as important, at least, as I see it.

SPEAKER 1: All right. Let's move on to some more folks who have questions for our two guests today. Hello. You're on the air now.

CALLER: Yes, hello. I have a couple of questions for Dr. Feldman. I'm calling from Duluth this morning. One of them is in the area of creativity in children. I guess it kind of hinges on the last questioner also. As far as how is a parent best able to be an advocate for their child, let's say, in the public school system in areas that aren't as concrete as the academic areas?

And my other question is, in relation to the study that he's done on the child prodigies, what types of characteristics of those families and those family settings would he be able to pull out and how could he tell us what were common threads among those families that had those children that he was studying?

DAVID FELDMAN: Let's take the first question. How do you encourage creativity in young children? I think Professor Feinberg also might want to comment on that. It is difficult, but I think there are two ways-- at least two ways to go about it. One is to try to be active and involved in your school. To try to see in what ways you can or you can encourage the inclusion of areas of interest and of pursuit of children that are not currently being addressed.

And one of the things we have learned in our own research is that there is no schoolroom that's able to attend, no school system, no school teacher that's able to attend to all the different possibilities. So to some extent, it's our responsibility as parents to try to make sure that the teachers and the school pays attention to the things that are important to us. The other thing to do is to look for ways in which resources of the community-- your own and others-- can be brought to bear on the issue.

So that if your child is artistically talented or musically talented, that you try to find ways in which those gifts can be responded to. They don't have to cost money either. There are concerts, there are radio programs, television programs and whatever. It's getting organized, I think, that really is critical.

SPEAKER 1: Let's go to Dr. Feinberg on the same topic before you tackle the other issue.

SYLVIA FEINBERG: Yes. I think it's also important to take your lead from your child's interests. And parents are often so zealous about what's going to happen in the future and what they want children to be interested in. And sometimes inadvertently are pushing children to pursue certain things that may be irrelevant to the child. I feel very deeply that acknowledging children's interests, the activities that they want to pursue at home and allowing that to be expressed fully has some tremendous payoffs later.

Because what you're really involved with, ideally, is helping a child to be productive, to be generative, to be interested in things, to feel also that the things he or she is interested in are valid and all right. And so often parents feel-- and it's understandable-- that they'd rather the child wasn't drawing dinosaurs or war pictures or that the child wasn't even drawing, that the child was writing, or that the child was more mechanically involved or whatever the particular adult agenda is.

When in fact taking the child where he or she is coming from, reinforcing that kind of generativity saying, I trust your interests. I trust the things you care about. I trust the things you do on your own. I trust your products. And the future will take care of itself. And I think that's a real issue today when parents are so particularly zealous academically and are concerned with how does one change the school system? How does one change the teacher? How does one change the administrator? Et cetera.

And there are tremendous pressures being exerted on children to be something that might happen in the future quite organically, rather than allowing them to be what they are today and to produce what matters to them today. And I think that's really very important. And I think parents can provide support for children's genuine interests without worrying about what's going to happen to them three years from now or five years from now.

SPEAKER 1: All right Dr. Feldman, on part two of the caller's question from Duluth, on any common threads you found in the families of child prodigies?

DAVID FELDMAN: I did find common threads, and they may be discouraging to today's upper middle class family, even though all the families were upper middle class. What was really distinctive about these families is that they were, on the whole, quite traditional. I mean that in both senses one that the families tended to be intact, that they tended to be father, mother, children. Mother tended to be someone who stayed home most of the time, in some cases, all of the time.

And the father worked. And that the values of the family were very traditional. And there was a very kind of close knit almost like out of time and place feeling about these families. The other thing about what I mean by traditional is that they seem to have the children placed as the most important thing in their lives, and their willingness to make major accommodations in their own careers or their own goals in order to respond to the things that they saw showing in their children was really something that you don't see as much anymore. And it suggests that there may be fewer prodigies.

SPEAKER 1: Very interesting. Very interesting. More folks with questions on this topic of creativity and childhood development today. You're on. Go ahead, please, with your question.

CALLER: Thank you. I have two children ages five and four, who have recently been tested and found to be extremely academically talented. I was wondering if there was some kind of strategy that I could take to find if they have a particular talent that should be developed? Presently my husband and I are not directive and neither are the children. They seem to enjoy many things.

DAVID FELDMAN: Well, the chances are if they tested very well, that they may be children who have general capability, which means that they are likely to do well on many, many different things. This is it's a wonderful gift to have because it means that they're likely to find enjoyment in doing many different things. I wouldn't be too concerned about it. The only thing that might be the case is that in masked by this general area of capability may be a specific talent.

And the only way to really find that out is to expose them to the different areas in which you might expect it to be found, for example, if you have a tradition of music in your family and you think that they might be interest in music, then find ways in which music can be brought into the children's lives, and so on. But the chances are if the children are enjoying what they're doing and that they seem to enjoy many different things, that they're very fortunate in that they're likely to be able to find many things to do that will satisfy them.

There is a downside to it. And the downside is that sometimes people who are so good at doing many different things have difficulty choosing a thing to do or a few things to do for their life's work or their career or how they're going to focus on something. But that's a problem that's well into the future. And frankly, I wouldn't worry about it too much at this point.

SPEAKER 1: More folks are waiting with questions. You've been holding on patiently. Go ahead, please now.

CALLER: Yes. There has been a push for--

SPEAKER 1: Will you turn your radio down before you go any further, please? We're just about to the point of having that radio come back in the form of feedback to us, which we don't like to listen to. Go ahead, please now.

CALLER: There's been a push for early academic work, and I wonder if this is sometimes to the exclusion of the imaginative work of childhood. If either of you were to describe a school setting that would enhance the expression of talent and creativity in elementary school children, what would it be like?

SPEAKER 1: Dr. Feinberg, let's start with you.

SYLVIA FEINBERG: Yes, I think that an elementary school that would enhance creativity and productivity on the part of children would look a lot like a very good preschool kindergarten, in that it would be activity-oriented, activity-centered. It would allow children the opportunity to work across modalities, not only being involved in paper pencil tasks where art materials, musical materials, the opportunity to create, invent, utilize one's ideas was valued in the same way that it is in the best of kindergartens and preschools.

This is not to say that the elementary school doesn't need to address the important tasks of academic skills, but that those things would be integrated with expressive activity that's meaningful to children. So I would look for classrooms in which there's activity and where children have options and control over a good deal of the work that they're going to be involved in. And that skills are being developed along with the capacity to express yourself in writing, in artistic media, et cetera.

SPEAKER 1: Dr. Feldman, do you want to add anything to that?

DAVID FELDMAN: I fully agree with Professor Feinberg's description of that ideal little world. Where I think we both know that you don't see it very often, and I think it's for good reasons in a way that the feeling of responsibility is such that there's a great emphasis on getting the three R's across. But we are very much preschool education biased. And I think because of our belief that there's more of a responsiveness to the children's special qualities that occurs in the preschool.

And we would very much like to see elementary schools, and for that matter secondary schools, orienting themselves a little more toward the child. Now there's always this tug of war between what the culture says everybody has to know and what the children say they want to know. And I guess it's fair to say that our particular bias is more toward giving at least more credibility to and paying more attention to and more support for the children's own desires and motivations and the areas that they would like to pursue, and that some kind of more reasonable balance is worth pursuing.

SYLVIA FEINBERG: I think, though, that sometimes parents put pressure on schools to be more involved in academic tasks in a way that isn't necessarily in the best interests of the child. I think that there's no question about the fact that all of us are committed to children mastering basic skills. But often parents think that if worksheets are coming home, if mechanical kinds of tasks are being generated, that the right kinds of things are happening.

I think it's hard and again, understandably so, for parents to trust that when children are writing their own stories, writing their own books, involved in inventive spelling, creating activities that utilize the skills that these things are really happening. And I would just like to have parents reinforce those teachers out there who are trying to accomplish these things. Sometimes teachers come in and want to accomplish the teaching of skills in more integrated, meaningful ways for children, and the pressure is on from parents to do the more traditional thing.

Where are the worksheets? Where are the skills in narrow isolation? And so the teacher who wants to produce a classroom that's more vibrant, more exciting, more really meaningful for kids finds it hard to do so because there's so much pressure coming from the community.

SPEAKER 1: Professors Sylvia Feinberg and David Feldman are with us today talking about the topic of childhood development, childhood, creativity and art. They are from Tufts University, and they're in the Twin Cities this week to participate in a series of seminars and lectures at the College of Saint Catherine in Saint Paul. We have about a half hour left with our guests, so let's get on with some more questioners. Hello. You're on the air now.

CALLER: Yes. I'd like to address this to Dr. Feinberg. I'd like to know if you should praise everything your child draws or does artistically, or does it help them in their artistic development if you are perhaps a little more selective?

SYLVIA FEINBERG: I think you'd be exhausted if you were praising everything that a really productive child was producing. And I guess I hear that in your question. The suggestion in your question is that one does want to be discriminating. I think that assuming that you provide a supportive environment for children, you want to be real and genuine in the way in which they talk about their work. And you want to be free to say, well, let's look at this in relationship to that.

And you worked hard on this. I like this particular one. What do you like about that one? Et cetera. So that you're engaging in some honest dialogue. I think it's artificial to assume that you're just going to say to kids, oh, that's wonderful. Everything you're doing is beautiful, because it reduces the child's sense of commitment to his own productivity. And they read into it that it's phony. So my own biases are that assuming the child feels trusted and supported by the adults, then the adults should engage in honest dialogue.

SPEAKER 1: Dr. Feldman.

DAVID FELDMAN: I just would like to add one thing, which is from my experience, it is critical to give a great deal of praise in the very earliest phases of the child's involvement with an activity. The first few experiences in any area are really very critical, at least that's what I found. And it doesn't change either. It's true for adults as it is for children. And I would say that if a child is just becoming involved with an activity, that's the time to maybe inflate a little bit how much support and praise that you give until you find out if the child is truly engaged and interested in that area.

Once that happens, then I would definitely agree that you certainly don't want to just take anything that the child produces as being wonderful. That eventually the child has to have standards and set standards and try to reach them. And that won't happen as well if everything is said to be wonderful.

SPEAKER 1: We'll move on to your question now. Hello. Doctors Feldman and Feinberg are listening.

CALLER: I want to ask something about referral sources for parents for highly gifted children, especially when they reach adolescence. Many times they're younger than another group in the thing in which they may be gifted, say, and parents wonder if they should go to maybe even another city in order to get the right school. Now, University of Minnesota, for example, used to have University Elementary School and the University High school, which had more experience with gifted children and incidentally, physically handicapped than just about any place.

But they're gone. Political and other factors entered and they were just simply abolished. And when Kathleen Battle was here recently, she sang and with that glorious voice and then she also has a master's degree. I couldn't help wondering, how she was guided into this and want to find out more about it.

SPEAKER 1: So the question is basically one of resources and how do you find out what's available.

DAVID FELDMAN: I actually used to work at the University of Minnesota but it was a long time ago. And I don't really know what the scene is here in the Twin Cities, and I don't know what the scene is here in the region. So I'm really not the person to ask in a way. But I do know this, that there's almost certainly a state organization in each state for a gifted education. And that they're almost always a grassroots movement to try to make things better.

And those are reasonable places to start with that problem. It is, though, a serious issue, and I didn't know that the high school had closed. I didn't know that the elementary school had closed. These are things to be concerned about and there are no straightforward or easy solutions to the problem. And, actually, I'm the last one to speak about it in a way, because Massachusetts-- the state that I work in now-- is probably less well developed than Minnesota is in these areas.

But my guess is you have a state coordinator, somebody in the State Department of Education, and that you probably have some statewide organizations that are grassroots types. And I would start the process. It's a political process like any other and see about advocacy.

SPEAKER 1: OK, can we take your question next. Hello. You're on the air.

CALLER: Yes. I'm very grateful for the opportunity to hear these speakers, especially as a retired teacher here. But I know as intelligent people, they must be concerned about the present increasingly precarious state of our world. How do they suggest parents should deal with this with their children?

SPEAKER 1: You mean with world politics and that sort of thing?

CALLER: Yes.

SPEAKER 1: All right.

CALLER: With our situation with what's going on in the world, that is.

SPEAKER 1: All right. Professor Feinberg.

SYLVIA FEINBERG: Well, my own feelings are that the place to begin is with human relationships right in the room that one happens to be in. And that the way that adults help children to negotiate aggressive situations, problems in getting along with one another at home is the initial room to start in. And that this is not to suggest that children don't have to become familiarized with what the large issues are from a macro vantage point.

But I think that premature asking children to consider large national events that are beyond their grasp cognitively and beyond their control is not necessarily constructive. I don't see how it helps a child to be overwhelmed by the fact that the world is in trouble in terms of getting along with one another. I think that the responsibility is to help the child in the early years to get along with his or her peers, with each other, and to look at basic notions of caring for others and caring for oneself.

DAVID FELDMAN: I think it's one of the lessons that we learned the hard way in the '60s. And that is that you can desire things to change, and you can try mightily to make things change. But ultimately, it comes down to how you live your own life and how you impact the lives of others. And somewhere when one brings a child into the world, that must bring with it some kind of act of faith that there will be a future and that future is one that's worthwhile.

And I can't say strongly enough that I agree with Professor Feinberg that these things are modeled in the family, in the community, and that if the job is done well there, then the probabilities of there being serious problems at the larger level are substantially reduced. And I don't see how to go about it any other way.

SYLVIA FEINBERG: I watched a child this morning at one of the classrooms in Saint Catherine's come and tear up the paper of another little boy who had been working long and hard. And the student intern did a superb job. She moved over and she talked to the child who had addressed, and explained to him that the other child was crying because of his behavior. And she really clarified what was going on. She said out loud what both of them knew, and she helped him to comfort the other child.

And it was a small incident but an important one and the kind of incident that goes on every day all over the world. Really important to help kids to know the implications of their own behavior. And until they know the implications of their own behavior, it's hard for them to set about the task of trying to straighten out the world.

SPEAKER 1: Early childhood development is our subject. Stretching a little far afield once in a while here. But our guest, Dr. David Feldman and Dr. Sylvia Feinberg, who are here from Tufts University. You've got a question for either of them. Go ahead, please. You're next.

CALLER: Yes. I have a six-year-old who's good at drawing, but he seems to set up expectations that are really too high for himself. He might start a drawing and then when things don't go the way he wants, he just has a real frustration, tears, self-accusation, throwing stuff. And then the next hour a day, he'll try again. And it's too beautiful. But I'm just wondering, how can I deal with this? I'm an artist myself, and I think that he expects to do what I do after 3 years of practice. And I don't know how to tell him to relax and give it a few years.

SYLVIA FEINBERG: Well, it sounds like you're doing some of those things right now. One of the questions I would ask is, does this kind of frustration occur in all activity or is it confined to art? If it's confined to art, then this may be a child really impressed by your capabilities and a child who's precocious in terms of his hopes for himself. And so you may need to intervene. And as you're doing, reassure and also help him to think through some of the issues.

Six-year-olds and seven-year-olds in particular begin to get frustrated because they can see beyond their own capabilities, and they begin to understand that there are more discreet ways to represent. And they can't always figure it out for themselves. So I'm sure that you're providing the kind of basic support that's necessary. And I'd go on from there and think through, what is the problem? Why are you upset about trying to get that car to look the way you want it to look?

Let's think through what the car looks like, et cetera. But, again, I'd want to separate the issue from, is this something that's going on with that child in all areas of behavior? Is he frustrated when he can't write the way he wants to write it? Et cetera. If it's a general issue of insecurity, lack of confidence, then obviously you're going to be dealing with it in a more global way. If it's specifically related to art, then it's another set of particulars.

SPEAKER 1: What would you do if it were a more broadly-based sort of problem?

SYLVIA FEINBERG: If it were more broadly-based, I'd want to talk to the child's teacher and other adults who are dealing with the child. I'd want to see whether this was a minimal kind of developmental shift that was just going on as part of normal growing and evolving. But if I felt from talking to teachers and others and I probed my own feelings I felt it really was a problem, then I would want to get some clinical advice and look at it in terms of how profound it was.

I think it's natural for children to have difficult periods of time and to be frustrated, and that's we go through it as adults as well. There's a difference between struggling through a new stage of development and being chronically dissatisfied with oneself and frustrated and feeling that you lack personal power.

SPEAKER 1: Back to the telephones and more questions for professors Feinberg and Feldman. Go ahead. You're on the air now.

CALLER: Hi. I'd like to ask Dr. Feldman, what are the most effective ways to encourage a child's art talent? And also, what are the most ineffective ways?

SPEAKER 1: Well, I'm not sure if that might not be better addressed by Dr. Feinberg. She's the art expert. Feldman is the expert on child prodigies. OK.

SYLVIA FEINBERG: Well, I think the thing that I would not do-- I'm assuming you're talking about a relatively young child between the ages of four and eight-- is not do a lot of drawing for the child and ask the child to imitate. I think in the early years, you really want to have a child producing the subject matter and the forms that are idiosyncratic to that child. So I do a lot of holding back in terms of drawing for children, demonstrating.

I don't mean that I'd never be involved in this, but I wouldn't emphasize showing a child how to achieve success in terms of stimulation. I would provide the appropriate media. I'd provide space. It's hard to find spaces that are really provided for children in their own rooms with big table surfaces and containers with all the media that is readily accessible. I'd have the right tools set up in such a way that children didn't have to rummage around to find a stapler or a paper punch, et cetera.

So I'd provide media, great big surfaces, big bulletin boards, much like a schoolroom does. And I would reinforce that activity. I'd also take the child to museums to visit other artists to understand that art is a profession. And it's not just something little kids do in kindergarten and first grade, but it's something that goes on in the world and is valued. I would use every junction I could to help the child, to inform the child that this is a discipline. It's a world unto itself. It has a sequence.

There are a series of stages and knowledge bases. Obviously, one wouldn't want to prematurely lay that on a young child. But helping a child to know that the thing he or she is interested in belongs to the adult world as well and providing that sequence. There's one wonderful book called Heidi's Horse by Sylvia Fein, which shows the development of one little girl's drawing of horses. Actually, it goes from three years through age 10. It's a wonderful book for children because it helps them to understand that if you work hard and if you consider things, you too will grow in your capacity to represent.

SPEAKER 1: Do you find that practically all kids gravitate towards some sort of artistic expression, or are there some who just kind of could take it or leave it?

SYLVIA FEINBERG: In the early years, the majority of children gravitate towards it. There's always an occasional one for whom it doesn't seem to be the center of the universe. And that's as it ought to be, I suppose. Most children care very deeply about it in the early years, assuming that adults don't do too much drawing for them, too much intervention, too much showing them how. In the preschool years, drawing is a very natural kind of organic process. As they grow older, they'll begin to themselves according to who feels specially attracted to this domain as contrasted to others.

SPEAKER 1: All right. We have about 15 minutes left with our guests and lots of folks with questions. We'll move right along to you next. Hello.

CALLER: OK, good afternoon. I'm enjoying your common sense logic that seems to be going on here. I have a six-year-old, and she just entered into the kindergarten. And you talk about the intellect. She's obviously showing that she is one of the definitely top in her class. The behavior is not matching the intellect. And I would like to know if there is any way that you two could shed light on the fact that are these two supposed to match?

I seem to be getting from the kindergarten teacher that she expects that too. I guess I don't see the correlation socially as you were talking a little bit earlier and the behavior in the class obviously needs to be worked out.

SPEAKER 1: What do you think about that, Professor Feldman?

DAVID FELDMAN: Well, I happen to have a six-year-old also who has entered the kindergarten, so I feel a real kinship with your question. I think you're perfectly right in your observation that sometimes the mind seems to race ahead of the emotions, and sometimes the social development doesn't stay up with the soaring kind of intellect that occurs. And it can go the other way as well.

So I think it's very important to recognize and also to help communicate that the mind is not some kind of-- nor is the personality-- some kind of totally organized thing that everything moves along at the same pace. It's in the nature of development for there to be unevenness. It's true enough that some people, a lot of people, it seems to go along that way most of the time. And that gives us the illusion that it's all sort of tied together.

But the fact of the matter is that-- and I've seen this in the extreme cases of prodigies that I deal with that there are enormous peaks, and there are also great valleys in development. And I think the sensitive parent and the sensitive teacher will be aware of these things and to try to understand the implications that they might have for their particular child in that particular situation. From what you said, it sounds to me like you're right on the mark.

SYLVIA FEINBERG: Also, sometimes in kindergarten, social events become of paramount importance to a given child. And a child with tremendous capabilities puts those aside while he or she negotiates the social environment. It may be that there are particular constellations of children that are compelling to this little girl or friendships are important and that her emotional energies are going towards solving certain social dilemmas, which once resolved will free her to turn back to other kinds of tasks.

SPEAKER 1: Can we take your question next. Hello, you're on the air. Professors Feinberg and Feldman are listening.

CALLER: Hi. Thank you. I don't mean to deviate from the theme of early childhood development, but my question is, is what the role of computer technology is probably going to play in schools of the future? And if you can just discuss that.

DAVID FELDMAN: Well, it's an interesting question, and it's one certainly to be paying attention to. It's certainly the case that a major new technology has arrived on the scene, and it's going to be with us for a long time into the future. I don't think anybody really knows what the implications are. I do think that there have been unrealistic expectations set up about how revolutionary the computer is going to be, and it's going to change everything in education.

And I think that's really grossly overstated, and it's expecting something that isn't appropriate. But certainly the opportunity to reflect on what this new technology means and in what ways it should be and can be integrated into the educational environment is something that's very much not just worthwhile, but it's essential. And I think it's going to be obviously of increasing importance as time goes along. But to expect all of the problems to be solved by a technology is probably placing your bet on the wrong horse.

SYLVIA FEINBERG: In the preschool classroom that I was in this morning at Saint Catherine's, it was interesting to note that the computer was on the shelf as one more activity along with the box, the rods, the other mathematical play materials that were there. And it seemed highly appropriate. It's interesting to see how this was a Montessori classroom, and that media that was designed over 100 years ago was sitting beside contemporary technology.

What seemed appropriate is that it's one more dimension of knowing and exploring, and that the classroom was acknowledging that it exists and it's here and it's there for the child, but it's not being accentuated and given more attention than the other kinds of things that are there. So I think that each period of time takes its own values, its own technology, and those influence the environment. But some things are basic. And no matter what we know about technology, blocks and stacking them will always be important for little kids.

SPEAKER 1: In that particular environment, was the computer more or less popular than the other things?

SYLVIA FEINBERG: No. As a matter of fact, I was in the environment for 45 minutes before I knew it was there.

SPEAKER 1: OK.

SYLVIA FEINBERG: I see it was at the end of the room on a shelf, and one child was doing that while another child was pouring water, and another child was making a collage, and another child was struggling to fold paper 13 different ways and tape it down. And I think that's the way it ought to be. It's one more thing to explore, one more thing to know about, but it's not saying that learning to cut and paste and invent forms and make your own things and think about making planes-- which was going on very, very energetically in the wood gluing area-- that those things remain important. Children need to know about technology, but they need to know about their own fantasy life as well.

SPEAKER 1: Moving on to some more folks with questions in the time remaining. Hello. What's your question today?

CALLER: Hello. I have a question that it's sort of after the fact. I had two very gifted children. And when they were young they produced many, many artful things that were just beautiful. And especially my son, who is very artistic and drawing, very small, unusual little soldiers and animals in a really complicated settings. He also was very talented in sculpting, and he made several wonderful sculpting of animals.

SPEAKER 1: What is the general nubbin of your question, ma'am?

CALLER: They went to a private school where academics were pushed. And they gave up their art, both of them. One was musically artistic and the other one was art. And now they're in college. And how do I revive those gifts because I can see that my son is happier when he's doing something artful?

SPEAKER 1: All right. Any ideas on how to help a person who's in college get interested in art once they have gotten off on to some other things?

SYLVIA FEINBERG: Well, I think it's hard to go back and retrace at this late date. But let me just say that I think that there are some children who are very generative and very productive as you describe your son, who transfer that capability into another domain. And it may be that some of that same energy is being expressed in other ways. I certainly can't say in relationship to your own son. But it's difficult to capture those 10 years that have been lost if in fact it was an environmental kind of thing.

But encouraging, again, supporting the thing that the child seems to be interested in no matter what the age is important. I would encourage him in whatever he's interested in right now instead of lamenting the fact that he's not doing what he once did and has given up. I think reinforcing his interest as they manifest themselves today is really crucial. And hopefully when one feels it's OK to pursue what you really care about and you're interested in, it's easier to find your way back to the original thing or to an alternate thing that will provide the same sense of satisfaction.

SPEAKER 1: Well, it's never too late either, is it? I mean, Grandma Moses was how old when she started painting? And John Houseman was how old when he started acting?

SYLVIA FEINBERG: I think it's important that the parent doesn't decide what the child's agenda is. And it may be that art played a very important role for that young man at a particular time and it no longer does, and that other things will take its place.

SPEAKER 1: Dr. Feldman, did you have something to add on that or--

DAVID FELDMAN: No. I think that Sylvia said it well. And we should let it go at that.

SPEAKER 1: All right. Let's move on in that case. With about five minutes to go, you're on the air. Hello.

CALLER: OK. I have a comment about your characterization of the traditional family as being the common thread that went through the families of gifted children. You said where the father works and the mother stays home. Now I see the main driving force in this has a mother who is bringing up-- who works full-time at raising gifted children to be gifted adults. And the mother has perhaps set aside other plans she had for her life in favor of raising gifted children.

DAVID FELDMAN: Let's be clear about it. What I said was that the six families that I studied over a period of 10 years, very extreme cases, tended to be more traditional in their orientation and organization than we may think as typical today. And it is true, and I agree with you. I think I said as much that to have accepted the responsibility of raising very talented children-- in the cases I studied extremely talented children-- is an enormous one.

And it's no less challenging, probably more challenging than most jobs that most of us do. So without question, the emphasis is not on one person, the father works and the mother doesn't. Nothing could be further from the truth. I was simply suggesting that there's something about the quality of family values that I saw in the families I studied that seems to be more from what we think of these days anyway as an earlier time.

Traditional values, spiritual values, closeness, dedication to family, children coming first, those are the things that I saw in the families that I studied.

SPEAKER 1: We haven't a whole lot of time left, but let's get as many people in as we can in the remaining few minutes. Go ahead, please. You're next.

CALLER: I believe that art is important, but I'm wondering what you think about buying and encouraging children's playing with toy guns and with war toys? Thank you.

SYLVIA FEINBERG: Well, that's a complicated issue. I certainly don't think you should encourage children to play with war toys. But on the other hand, if children gravitate towards them, make their own, want them very much, receive them from friends, et cetera, I don't think it ought to become a real power struggle between the adults values and the child's values.

Many parents have attempted to do this. I know one person who forbade guns for her child, and after six months she discovered that behind the furnace downstairs in the cellar, there was a veritable armory that he had been confiscating from other children. Guns, whether we are comfortable with it or not, seem to be a symbol that are very, very important for many children. My own biases are that you allow the child to play the stage out.

You attempt to redirect the play when it's appropriate, but you don't load a guilt trip on the child and make him feel that something's wrong with him, that he's evil and aggressive and hostile. You help him to understand his own play, and hope that he's going to move on. So I think that certainly one doesn't want to encourage it and stimulate it. But I think it's important to recognize that many healthy adolescents and adult males went through that stage. Did their shooting it up. Did their gun play and put it away very successfully.

I think there's nothing that's more difficult for a child than to want desperately to play at something, to create something and have the adults who mean the most to him making him feel that he is in some way inadequate or hostile. And so I would accept the child's play. Help him to understand its context. Redirect it in appropriate ways and hope that it's going to move on as it does for most children.

SPEAKER 1: All right. Thank you for waiting. Let's move on to your question. Next you're on the air with Dr. Feinberg and Feldman.

CALLER: Hi. We have a 2 and 1/2 year old who we think is a very talented little girl. And the question that I have for you is, how to help her develop her social skills in interacting with other children because we feel she has a little difficult time with kids that are hyperactive.

DAVID FELDMAN: It's not at all unusual for a child who is particularly intellectually talented to have maybe even more than usual sensitivities to other children's rough and tumble play and aggressiveness. And there is no really easy way out of that. But I think that one way to do it is to try to find a preschool setting where when you walk into it, you have the sense that it is a gentle and caring place.

From what I've seen, at least, the most successful situations are ones where as an adult you can tell when you're in the environment that it's one that's safe and that has a quality about it that suggests that children will be able to live in it without harming each other. And there are such places. And I'm sure that you'll be able to find one in and around the area where you live.

SYLVIA FEINBERG: I'm also wondering whether this caller is suffering the repercussions of typical two-year-old behavior, or whether there is a particular concern in terms of social development? Two-year-olds in general aren't the most sociable of creatures. They like other children about, but they're pretty self-centered in terms of achieving their own ends. And so some of what you're struggling with may take care of itself with the unfolding of another year.

SPEAKER 1: And I'm afraid we have just about run out of time. Thank you both so much for coming in and visiting with us today.

SYLVIA FEINBERG: Thank you. It's some wonderful question.

SPEAKER 1: Dr. Sylvia Feinberg and David Feldman are affiliated with Tufts University, and they're in the Twin Cities spending the week, actually, or the better part of the week at the College of Saint Catherine in Saint Paul. And if you enjoyed listening to them this afternoon, you might want to be able to go over to Saint Catherine's tonight for a lecture that they're giving.

The lecture is called, the spark in the flame, creativity, art and development of the young child. That's tonight at 7 o'clock at the College of Saint Catherine in Saint Paul. And everybody is welcome. I think they'd be amused if they had to turn people away. And maybe they will. Thank you both so much for coming in.

SYLVIA FEINBERG: Thank you.

DAVID FELDMAN: Thank you.