On this Weekend program, Dave Durenberger, Minnesota U.S. senator (I-R), discusses hijackers, terrorism, domestic violence, gun laws, and international law. Durenberger also answer listener questions.
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(00:00:00) And we bring back to our microphones this morning Robert Potter who is here with our studio guests for today's calling. Yes. Thank you Mark. Sometimes they call me Marathon Man. I think Senator Dave durenberger is with us for the rest of the hour. Today. We're going to talk a little bit about efforts to control terrorism as highlighted by the hijacking of the TWA jetliner. Not long ago. Despite tough. Talk from us leaders Chief among them President Reagan. Of course there really hasn't been any clearer retaliation against the hijackers. It seems Senator durenberger that the United States can't do much more than Bluster in the face of this sort of activity. Do you think there is anything that we actually can do or are we just likely to be held victim to these folks if if by retaliation we expect to identify and and kill those who put the lives of Americans at risk in their in their terrorist activities, then it's extremely difficult because those people are in a country that isn't a political entity anymore in Lebanon and various factions in Lebanon have an interest in protecting them in in one way or another now, they seem to have an interest in so-called putting them on trial and I suspect what they're going to do is try to put the United States on trial and Israel on trial and and so there's no way you can you can go after them in the sense of for example turning on the gun the 16-inch guns in the New Jersey and blowing away some of their Associates we have found in past experience that number one while it's that is a that is a threat as as they they showed in the late stages that negotiation that we aren't we aren't prepared and I don't think we should even try to prepare to take on the killing in discriminately of a lot of innocent people when a very very small group is the one that is actually responsible for these terrorist activity. So the bottom line is that we have not prepared ourselves as a nation for the eventuality of small radical religious fundamentalist groups through ought to take on the responsibility for fighting Israel in the Middle East. We should have known that was coming. We should have known it was coming in here and we could have known it was coming in Lebanon. We could have prepared for it in some way having failed to prepare for it. We are left without the resources in place there to identify the villain one more question will open the phone lines for for listener questions and comments on this. Some people have pointed out that about the only way you could really put a stop to this Airline hijacking an airline terrorism isn't a situation like the TWA one you go and attack the jetliner you attack the terrorists you risk the lives you possibly lose the lives of the hostages and if it doesn't work, once you do it the second time you do it the third time you do it as many times as it takes to convince. The people that that is exactly how you're going to respond. And in the process you may be sure you risk the lives of maybe several hundred people, but you save the lives and save the agony and Terror of perhaps many thousands of others each of the well, let me let me give you the bottom line first. I mean we're prepared to do exactly that but it's a judgment call on how when where all those circumstances it takes a period of time to determine who the hijackers are in a political and or some other And until you determine who they are who their Associates might be somewhere else in the world. You can't make a determination as to whether or not a some kind of an effort to take them and the hairline at the same time as is appropriate because of the risk of life. So you can always count on a period of time in the beginning usually a brief period of time in which we're doing identity, but I think it is safe to say without disclosing any any specific plan that we were prepared in this case to take on The Airliner itself, even though some lives might have had to have been risked in the process. It would have been only a few lives we would have gotten those two hostages are the two terrorists and we would have killed him in the probably in the process unless they were willing to surrender but we were prepared to do that and held off or for what in effect were political reasons. Not partisan or anything like that Middle East politics, which should not necessarily be present the next time because of what what happened when this one got prolonged. So with the exception of Beirut where it is a little difficult to be that prepared perhaps although I must say we are we can be prepared their to what you what you have indicated is part of American policy. It has to be there's just no question about it. Otherwise this thing will get out of hand. Mmm. Let's open the phone lines for listener questions for Senator Dave durenberger this this morning two two seven six thousand for those of you in the Minneapolis st. Paul area 2276 thousand if you have a question for Senator durenberger, in other parts of Minnesota, our toll-free number is 1-800-695-1418 hundred six hundred 529700 and in the Twin Cities 2276 thousand what Dorothy catch up on a couple of those and I'll throw one more Edge. Senator it is glaringly apparent that the Soviet Union is not subject to this kind of activity. Not terrorists. Don't go after Soviet installations. They don't go after Soviet citizens at least insofar as we can tell why is that? Well, I think they we don't know first off where they do or they don't because the Soviets rarely publicize this kind of activity. They are subject to terrorist attack from time to time. I am I am convinced him from some information that I have but not in the same way. They have some internal terrorism problems in their country. The Soviet Union today is a is a nation which is a majority of minorities rather than then then Russians and I particularly on the south and particularly in the areas where there is the influence of Muslim from and Islam from from the neighboring countries there. They have some some of the same kind of problems. Clearly their security arrangements are probably tougher than ours in many cases and that that also May contribute to it. But in general it is our greater political involvement in the Middle East right now that exposes Americans because we have made and will continue to make a commitment to the state of Israel and the radicals in the Middle East will not tolerate that will use any end go to any youngster to change that and you know that that's why we're different in that regard. Okay. Let's take some listener questions now for Senator durenberger. Good morning. You're on the air. (00:07:36) Yes. I'm calling from st. Paul and I was wondering if sooner durenberger would comment on an aspect of prevention that I think is a related to us understanding the Grievances and I guess the cultural problems of various groups. I know that during the Iran crisis. In 79 particular there seemed to be very strong lack of understanding of just what the Grievances were and I'm wondering if because America is perceived as kind of a fortress that doesn't know much about kind of isolationist if that's makes us a larger Target for terrorists. I'll just hang up and listen. Thank you (00:08:14) sure and let me say that that in explaining this I'm not going to condone terrorism as a sort of the the last gasp effort because the way terrorism operates it has to take away so many innocent people that it is not to be condoned by by any civilized society, but I think the reality is that where you have seen at least in some cases state-sponsored terrorism that the president now or before his operation was was kind of trying to concentrate our attention on the role of Libya has been playing That Nicaragua is starting to play that Iran has played since 1979 1980 in effect sponsoring political terrorism. He left Syria off that list for some reason or other I guess because we're trying to be nice to the syrians, but even there by leaving them off the list indicates that we have a need to be sensitive to why it is that a nation of people's often of different cultural ethnic religious background feel the need to go to the extremes of terrorism in the Middle East. We do not have the capacity to fully understand or to appreciate the wise we don't fully appreciate the differences among a variety of the of the Muslim sects and even if we did we wouldn't know in a political sense exactly what to do about it. So we work on Proxies in Lebanon, we have worked off of proxies for a number of years trying to keep that country settle down and by proxy is I mean working off of people that we felt were friendly to us within a divided nation and by doing that we in effect in case of conflict between those interest within a nation increase the conflict and increase the problems for the United States, so I have to agree with the listener that yes, we need to do more but that that takes many years in order to develop that capacity and even if we did understand what they want and in many cases what they may want at least in the Middle East is for us not just for Israel and that's not going to happen. Well, that's that. Yes that is part of the problem. But again, I think the caller is suggesting that some of these things if they could be anticipated might be able to be dealt with in a different manner from the manner in which we are forced now to deal with Even though we have this commitment to Israel, we shouldn't be forcing a to take a either or kind of a kind of a position. All right more listeners waiting and we'll go to you next. What's your (00:11:04) question? My question to the senator is based on his voting for twenty seven million dollars maids to the conscious that the group that's in Honduras that's trying to overthrow the sandanista government of Nicaragua. My question to the senator is do you feel personally responsible for the murder kidnapping rape and other terrorist acts committed by the counter terrorist who you and the US government support. I'll hang up and listen to your response. (00:11:27) Sure. No, I do not feel personally responsible. I think that the the revolution which began in Nicaragua started many many years ago, perhaps you could say that people who were in the United States Senate and the Congress condoning US policy towards various Central American countries for the last 50 years are the ones that are responsible. I won't take responsibility for it because I have worked in the six and a half years. I've The Senate to try to anticipate the problems created by my predecessors ignorance of that of that part of the world and to try to deal with it with regard to Nicaragua. My current efforts are bent on restoring the Democratic Revolution. That is the people that overthrew Samosa ought to come together to find a way to rule not rule but in effect be be those who through the electoral process represent the people of Nicaragua and what is clearly happened over the last six years beginning late 1979 early in 1980. Is that one part of the of the Revolution the sandinistas in particular gradually forced out all other revolutionaries from the from the original Junta created their own National directorate of nine persons and in effect they have taken over the revolution. Our efforts now are to support a dialogue between all the former revolutionaries. That would go back to where they were in 1979. All right, we're talking basically about efforts to control terrorism with Senator durenberger also might get into a little discussion of counterintelligence today Senator durenberger chairs, the Senate intelligence committee and we'll take another listener with a question. Go ahead please. (00:13:18) Hello. I'm calling from Minneapolis have another question about Nicaragua one of the real difficulties in dealing with the world today that I think our president ignores and time to time is that there's a real danger. They were going to become exactly like our adversaries in the Soviet Union. There's great deal of talk right now, but state-supported socialism, maybe Senator durenberger explained in terms of that. The rest of us can understand why arming and supporting 25,000 people to invade another country just because we don't like the government is not state-supported socialism those We're down there killing people. They're killing innocent people as well as people who might be responsible for some things. We don't like I don't understand the distinction between that and the kind of things that we say. We don't like the Nicaragua's doing. (00:14:05) Yeah. I'll try to be brief on the side. But I have I oppose from the beginning the notion of the CIA introducing either some of the original revolutionaries who'd been kicked out of Nicaragua by there by the sandinistas back into the country or going back in with some form of slow. Mo sista or Samosa National Guard military people and since that was originally proposed 1981. I had a pose that I voted for it twice last summer just in the in the course of the of the dialogue process between the United States and Nicaragua to try to force if you will the Nicaraguan end of the dialogue to include the political. Airship of the original Revolution people like Kelly Otto and and rebelo and Arturo Cruz senior and Junior all of whom were part of the the new government since 1979 of Nicaraguan who had been forced out of that country to try to force them to come together. But now the CIA is out. I mean, they're the, you know, the Gringos are gone and I in effect at least the military or paramilitary part of it is gone and what you have is two political groups in Nicaragua, you have the marxist-leninist oriented sandanista National directorate which holds office by reason of the fact that they threw the others out and ran an election last year to endorse their their their positions and you have all the other Democrats some of whom are still a Nicaraguan most of whom are not who are coming together and in effect have taken over the so called Contra military organization and They are working their way in some fashion. Hopefully towards the dialogue that will restore everyone to the positions. They held in Nicaragua before 1979 everyone. That is except Samosa and his supporters. Okay, Senator Dave durenberger in the Studio's today and we're taking your questions Talking primarily about efforts to control terrorism getting a little sidetracked here and there but we'll take another listener. Go ahead, please. Hello. You're on the air (00:16:21) Dave. Yes. This is your father out here and beautiful up respond to a cat everyone. Yeah. How are you doing Dad? (00:16:30) What do you want to know about Nicaragua (00:16:37) if you were coming home for a lengthy visit? Yeah, I (00:16:43) will as soon as I soon as I take my mother to a trip to Poland and I'll be back and see both of you (00:16:49) very good. (00:16:51) How's the fishing up there? (00:16:53) What a line, we're too busy. As you know. Yeah. I caught a little (00:16:56) heck for leaving Garrison Keillor in the middle of a lunch and Washington. You probably read that and read about. Yeah, and the reality is that I was the only one in that room who was born and raised on Lake Wobegon and yet nobody bothered to acknowledge that while I was while I was sitting there and I had to go and eat lunch with secretary Dole anyway, so so it's not I thought about y'all. So it's not that you had bad table manners o know as the host of the show suggested is a just you had another lunch to go to. Yeah. Well, I think he was admiring the fact that I've lost so much weight. He was afraid that it was probably by passing up food that I really needed ice. And so you're trying to encourage me to at least eat my salad. There's the rest of the stuff. All right. Thank you for calling from Avon will move on to the listener with a question. Go ahead please Senator during Burgers listening. (00:17:42) Thank you. I have a question on domestic violence in the recent Federal legislation concerning the relaxing of gun control issues, and I wondered if the senator could comment on that. (00:17:54) The the recent legislation that was passed on the Senate side is is a piece of legislation that does not in my opinion. I guess at least directly address the issue of gun control that is still an issue which we at the federal level believe we play one role in but the state and local governments have to play a much more substantial role. In other words. It is to some degree a matter of community judgment and Community standard about the deals with the particular the hand gun control issue at our level ever since 1968. When the Alcohol Tobacco Firearms by forget the name of the bill, but the National Firearms legislation was passed that that gave the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms a variety of authority at the federal level to go into Sporting good stores all over the country and without announcement and in a variety of other ways to do in the in effect the invade a lot of dealerships around the country with investigation. There have been a lot of problems and a lot of people very upset with the role. The federal government was was playing and for many years. We have been trying to undo the damage in effect being done to legitimate sellers of legitimate firearms in this country. And this bill is the end product of of a lot of time and effort put into it and a lot of people wanted to use the fact that we needed a bill to clean up the things that were wrong with the 68 act as a vehicle to take the national government even farther into the control of specific firearms and those of us who voted for this McClure volkmar Bill took the position that that is not appropriate for the national government that Is a function of state and local government the issues of registration the issues of waiting periods. All of that sort of thing is largely an issue to be resolved by the by the federal government. Does this play does the presence of handguns or long guns or anything else in America play some role in domestic violence in this country. There's no question about the fact that it does if there were none in this country. Would something else play a role. I assume something else would but a gun is a lot handier to use in many cases in something else and it is certainly regrettable. But the answer to that is not to eliminate all of all of the guns. The answer is to a deal with the issues of personal relationships and family relationships. And the health the emotional health of America. That's a much more appropriate place to go to end domestic violence. All right. It's about 25 minutes before 12 noon and lots of listeners want to talk to Senator durenberger today. Go ahead. You're (00:20:50) next. Yes. Good morning. I will ask the question and then hang up to listen to your answer Senator. Can you define terrorism such as far as you are concerned? What what is Terrorism and then would you qualify Israeli incursion on Lebanon in view of all the civilian casualties that was that happened there. Would you qualify that as there is some thank you. (00:21:16) Okay, I would I would Define terrorism as a at least in the sense. We've been discussing it here this morning. And in the sense that we on the intelligence committee. Look at it from the standpoint of counterterrorism. What what should we be doing as a nation to counter the threat of terrorism, I would Define terrorism. A more narrow narrowly than the last part of your your question would would suggest I would Define it as a as a as a very specific act which will endanger and or take away the life lives of innocent people in order to achieve. What is normally a political objective but it is narrowed down to a specific act rather than a policy and a specific act in the case of a bombing specific act in the case of capturing a an airplane and holding its its occupants hostage the threat of dropping a bomb on the capital of the United States, which was a fairly real threat last January the infiltration. of trained terrorists that is people who can kill Who can capture or kidnap that is people and then use them as hostages infiltrating those people into into other countries such as being done today and in El Salvador to try to kill President Duarte, there's a specific objective here blow away a few innocent people in order to get an a political objective accomplished and that's that is largely what we have to deal with it is as opposed to sending in an army as opposed to sitting down at a table and negotiating as opposed to perhaps some of the things in which the Israelis have been forced to engage during the during the several Wars in which they have been dragged by by their neighbors and they In the Middle East and other words going in to the Sinai and taking over the Sinai. I don't consider that terrorism even though it may be considered a threat to Egypt at the time that it was done. Our intelligence agencies presumably have had some success in getting information out of our sort of traditional adversaries the Soviet Union, I think of specifically nowadays certainly back during World War Two there were lots of stories about the OSS getting information out of the Germans and so on in the Japanese, but are are and the Soviets have been very very successful obviously with the Walker case and getting a lot of stuff out of us, but our our agencies capable of getting very good information from these terrorist organizations. Do we know who they are do we know who the who the key leaders Arduino very much about them at all. Well first let me say that are both are Espionage capabilities and our County our Espionage or Counter Intelligence capabilities in this country are are as good almost as any in the in the world. On an individual basis we are able to pick out of out of Moscow even though everybody is on our backs all the time over there. We are able to pick out a lot of good information, even though we have only a handful of people in that country by contrast the Soviets have 4400 trained agents in the United States operating out of the Embassy in Washington operating out of the United Nations operating out of Economic Council. It's all over the world. They have the help of all these plot countries. The Chinese the People's Republic of China is very good. It's fine. They're all over the place and and and we know who they are. Our problem is is just having enough resources to try to deal with them. Even though their numbers are large, you know, we can do something about it the problem in in the Middle East is that it keeps, you know, the actors keep changing. It isn't it isn't like the red Brigade where you knew something about Modus operandi after a while Interpol and a variety of other International organizations could track trace the movement of people start to predict when they were going to hit where they were going to hit and you could preamp them. It was a small group. Mostly all of them identified you had pictures all that sort of thing. We were able to get Dozier General Dozier out because we knew that much about the individuals involved their habits and all that sort of thing with with these new more radical fundamentalist groups in particular those that are operating out of the bacaw valley that is a much more difficult proposition because people are coming in and out of some of those groups New groups are springing up all of the time Hezbollah was not around really in the in the in the sense that you could identify some of its leaders like falala the head of the Hezbollah eight nine ten months ago. He was there as a person but he was not in any way and identified radical in part because we had not invested any resources. Jian XI I fundamentalist organizations. We just did not anticipate that they would be a problem. Same thing is true with regard to Khomeini. We didn't bother to infiltrate years ago this Ayatollah and his in his refuge in in Paris when it might have been a good idea to do that. Okay, let's get to more listener questions for Senator Amber. Hi, you're on the air (00:27:18) and since then only three states has ever refused the jurisdiction of the world court and they are Albania, which is a stalinist dictatorship Iceland and Iran under Khomeini. I wonder if you would care to comment on Reagan. Getting the United States to that list by refusing to allow the jurisdiction at the world court for the mining of Nicaragua's Harbors. My second question is I'd like to know specifically what President Reagan has done to find and discipline or punish the people who are responsible for the manual that the CIA had published to inform people how to commit terrorism against nicaraguans both civilians and Military. (00:28:04) Okay, those those are two important questions and I recall as you're asking the questions that I didn't fully answered and earlier question about States, you know, what kind of government are we trying to put into effect in Nicaragua? And the answer to that is is none other than some kind of a democratic process, but we're not trying to suggest what that form of government ought to be we're only trying to suggest that all the original revolutionaries who thought they didn't like the dictatorship to Samosa ran out to get together and decide that issue Ronald Reagan may have a different View Just happens to be my view his view on the international court of justice also is very different from my own. I think we should have gone in well as we did. I mean we were we were involved for a period of time and then when the decision started coming and against us we said we would not submit to the to the jurisdiction. I think that was a mistake. I think Nicaragua ought to be in the international court of justice. I think there is enough evidence of what the national directorate is doing to other countries so that we could make a case also that is the same as the case. They had against us with regard to the to the bombing. It might be well for these issues they ought to be settled politically. They had not to be settled by killing people. They are not to have to go to a court but I think that the United States if it represents Law and Order in the world, which it certainly has to do and always does it ought to stay as part of the international court process on the manual. I think the administration handled that abysmal e And I was on the intelligence committee watching how abysmally it was being done and I couldn't talk about it publicly. But the reality is that all the wrong people got disciplined. The guy that really was responsible for for messing that whole thing up in a very ineffective and and probably causing some innocent people to be killed was never disciplined at all. In fact, he got moved to a to a to an equally responsible position over in Europe and and a few people including somebody I happen to know quite well who still operating in in Central America had to take the blame for mistakes made by others. That isn't going to happen on my watch over the next 18 months as chairman of the intelligence committee. And I've told Bill Casey that six months ago and what do you say bill made excuses for for the way it was handled did not acknowledge that it was handled in the way it was handled. He was he was wrong because I know the facts. All right. It's about a quarter to 12. We have more listeners with questions. Go ahead. You're (00:30:42) next. I have a great deal for you. But I was very unhappy with your answer on the gun control vote. I feel I understand City of Minneapolis is not very happy with it because they can enforce their more strict rules with the state going along with the vote and also your vague suggestions about helping out with gun management have been ineffective for years and I wondered if you have any other better suggestion. No, I am very unhappy with that (00:31:20) right now and I understand that and I think a lot of people have been I guess I don't I don't know the specifics of the Minneapolis problem, but I guess I don't I don't agree that. We we put that kind of a constitutional or Legal crimp in state and local government control over over over over guns and I thought I don't have anything else to add other than what I've said. Okay, we'll move on then to another caller who has a question. Go ahead. Senator durenberger is listening. (00:31:53) Yes Senator. I'm calling from Shore View. I have a question in reference to Richard Burke. I see that he was appointed her as US ambassador to Germany, but not before some great discussion and opposition by some conservative Senators. I believe Goldwater and Helms were there now they seem to be accusing birth of leaking National Security information to the Soviets. No, how can we appoint people of this stature when it seems that our national interests are being greatly (00:32:28) compensated. We can't if that were the if that were the truth. The reality is that Richard Byrd was a reporter for the New York Times and on a couple of occasions that I'm aware of in 1979 and 1980 Burt wrote stories that were based on information given him by officials in the in the Carter Mondale Administration. They were accurate stories. They were stories. However that people in the intelligence community did not want to see written and probably should not have been written but they were given to Burt by people in the Carter Model Administration in effect. If not in the White House, very close to the White House like the National Security Council, so he was taking news and and in effect reporting it the people intelligence committee. Pose that and I think a lot of us probably would have opposed it but it was given to him by the government. He was then hired by the Reagan Administration in the in the defense department and and never I didn't hear anything on the floor that from Jesse Helms anybody else that suggested that while an employee of the administration that he had ever leaked information to reporters like a used to be or that he had ever passed any information any foreign government, they Helms and those people were still mad about what he did as a reporter for the times not anything that he had done since he was part of the administration. We have a couple of lines open in the Minneapolis st. Paul area 2276 thousand if you got too busy signal earlier, you might try again and maybe you can get your question in force in their juror Burger today your next go ahead, (00:34:11) please. I am yes, sir. Very good, Dave, you know speaking from Cass County. Yes, howdy. Are you doing good? Very good, Dave. I'm with the by cap Cass County communications network members, and we've got a problem not too much up here, but we have problems in terms of distribution of these areas achieve and butter and milk things in the past. I think I wrote you about the last year. (00:34:44) Yeah, could it could I get somebody to call you on Monday and we could work on it? (00:34:48) Yes likewise my doctors had me down in Texas in the wintertime in the desert. Okay arthritis, and I'm very active down there also with the elderly. (00:34:59) All right. Well, I'll call you personally on Monday. Give me a phone number (00:35:02) K9 47. Yep for 101 (00:35:05) 4101. I'll call you on Monday. (00:35:07) Okay. The area code is (00:35:08) 21218. You betcha. Got it. Thank you. I'll talk to you then. All right. Bye. Okay. Alright, we'll move on and I listened your now with a question for Senator durenberger. Hi, you're on (00:35:18) the air? I have a question on the counterintelligence. Why don't we have a hit squad to protect our people when they go into the different countries. It seems to me that our citizens are being harassed and killed whether they go into Mexico or South America or parts of Europe or the near East. Why can't we have a hit squad to rescue our hostages (00:35:50) principally because we are in another in another country. It would be like the Russians having a bunch of hit squatters in this country running around shooting Americans that allegedly are threatening Russian citizens or that might in effect actually kill a Russian citizen. I international law in effect doesn't permit people to put in effect hit squads and Countries now what international law will permit however is under the under the an agreement with another country that Nationals of a second country like the United States could be in that country for one purpose only and that is for example to take a an airline hijacking away from the hijackers. And that is one of the courses that we are we are now pursuing in in various parts of the world trained Americans who are either in place in another part of the world or can be quickly put in place in another part of the world to deal with the situation that the host government believes. It is not capable of dealing with but we still have to do it only with their with their permission you mentioned with regard to the hijackers of the TWA jet that they're talking about putting them on trial but a It'll be a mock trial in the put the United States on trial in Israel and all that. Will there be something wrong with an ikemen style kidnapping and bring those guys back to the United States and try them here as the Israelis did with Adolf Eichmann? Well, Senator Arlen Specter from Pennsylvania who is a very moderate kind of Republican and also a former United States district attorney in the eastern district of Pennsylvania. And a member of my committee has introduced legislation which in effect would do that say that any in any situation situation around the world in which anybody took the life of an American an innocent American without cause that that person will then have been in effect guilty of murder under United States laws and should be tried under United States laws in the United States. That's a novel approach. I don't know enough about the law, I guess to understand whether it might be enforceable, but here the man inspector who dealt all his life with his issue. Feel that that probably is the next step we might we might have to take make it a crime against US law bring those people in this country. There are others who are suggesting we have bounties, you know out there for them for them and whoever can produce the killer or the killers are hostages as the kidnappers ought to get a reward and then we'll decide where to where to try them and I suppose you'd have to make murder a federal crime. Maybe. Yeah, that's right. You would you would have to make it a federal crime. And obviously there is there's the other their their so-called zappers. I mean, I guess I was you know, television are a few weeks ago saying, well, you may have to zap him or something like that. Yeah, and and and part of the reality is that that again in within international law and and under the Aegis of which I whatever country it is you happen to be operating in that there is discussion about the necessity. Or making sure that when one of these kidnappers leaves an airplane, they know that they might not live for more than another week or two and they ended a few instances like that which in our case border on problems with prohibitions against assassination, maybe that sort of thing would discourage those who use terrorism indiscriminately. Okay, seven minutes before noon mistakes more listener questions. Hi, you're on the air. (00:39:49) Yes, Senator. Durenberger. You're one of my favorites. Well, thank you very much. From White Bear Lake Minnesota, and I just wondered if well because there's so much interested in tracing terrorists and it's such a difficult thing to do. Are you aware that there is a product that's a Peg and a micro taggants have can be put (00:40:09) in - yeah, I'll bet you're at 3M. Yes. Yes. I'm very aware of that. Yes you bet. (00:40:15) There is someone in (00:40:30) it would take us back to the to the gun control discussion that we had. We had a little bit earlier. Tell us some of the rest of us what this is it. Well it is it's a trace element as the caller is indicated that can be placed in in an explosive whether it is in Dynamite or is in a in the in the powder component of AG of a cartridge, whatever and in effect. Can I don't know technically how it works and she probably doesn't have time to explain it another you don't have diverted to explain it. But you can in effect go back and Trace off of the explosion or off of wherever the the shell exploded in a body or in a building or something like that. You can go back and Trace where that came from. Now the problem that relates to the so-called gun control issue obviously is that people who oppose gun control are opposed to the notion that our government or a government could in effect get into the business of of tying every handgun long gun owner in the country in some way into some large bureaucratic scheme for tracing all of their shells if tag ants were were permitted to be used in all kinds of explosives. So I think what we try to do is judiciously determine where you're going to use them because they do as the caller says a the collars. I mean they do have a lot of value. All right, we have about five minutes before noon will take you next. Go ahead please (00:42:10) Senator. I'm calling from st. Cloud with observations like you to comment on certainly it seems to me that regarding the Middle East at least that one of the things that we need to do is to have a much more balanced policy regarding Israel versus the Arab Nations. We made some attempts of that during Jimmy Carter's Rule and I'm wondering what your feelings are on this and indeed what are the prospects that we will stop being so blindly pro-israeli By ignoring so much the other world there. (00:42:42) Well, I think we are made to made to appear sometimes blindly pro-israel. Although I don't think we are I think we have always tried a balanced approach and and it appears that we are. Blindly pro-israel only when the non-israeli states in the Middle East take a position that they're under no circumstances. Will they recognize Israel if if the issue is not whether or not the other states in the Middle East would recognize Israel. The only issue was under what circumstances would they recognize Israel? I don't think we'd have a problem. But there are too many of those countries that have taken the position that no way under no circumstances and never never never will they acknowledge the existence of the state of Israel? And so, you know there isn't there isn't a way to balance that kind of a situation against an American position that is and always will be that there will be an Israeli state in in in the Middle East so our efforts have to be to in effect bring the more moderate as we call them Muslim states Arab states into the Action that they can work with Israel and what the terms of recognition not to be that's why the effort with Egypt is so important. That's why the efforts with with Jordan and my cashier. Oh Reagan has spent a lot of time with Hussein of Jordan trying to bring him into a process. That's why we spend so much time in the Iraq Iran problems, and we're Syria going and so forth, but it's a difficult task and the caller's absolutely right when he says there needs to be balance, but I would suggest we have tried under Carter Reagan Nixon Ford everyone to maintain that balance today. What's going to happen here at two minutes before twelve o'clock right at 12 noon. Those of you who are listening to the Minnesota Public Radio FM Network including ksjn FM in the Twin Cities will go off to music programming for the rest of the afternoon. And if Senator durenberger is willing we will continue on ksjn 1330 in the a.m. In the Twin Cities rather with a few more questions till about 10 after something like that. I'm willing to stay until the aquatennial parade starts. I don't want to deprive anybody there music. Okay. Well, we'll continue on the am here for a little while one more question for everybody. I think there's time go ahead please (00:45:06) briefly. Yes Senator. I'd like to make a statement. Have you respond to it? One of the preeminent experts are Nicaragua is Professor Thomas Walker will how University he's been conducting research on that country for some 18 years published two major books and (00:45:26) Revolution circuit. We have your statement very quickly. We're almost out of time here and then we'll have to let the FM side (00:45:31) goal or his conversion based on a very thorough research for his latest book on Nicaragua. Their country is in fact had an overall good human rights record. And in fact that the predominant terrorist organization is not the fsln but the contras which the center supports and later the professor Walker spawning. So, how do you support yours? (00:45:56) Right. I think we Teddy Kennedy and Nancy kassebaum and I had a hearing in which we address the human rights issue. We were a year or two ago. I think there is bad on both sides. I imagine that Professor Walker statistically could prove that there are more violations have been on the country side than on the sandinistas national directorate side, but let me say that we put into that recent resolution on support of the country at the request of rebello, Colorado and cruise the the Democrats specific prohibitions against human rights violations so that they could force those violations activities out of the so called Contra military side. Okay, we're going to let the FM Network go off to music programming here. We can made possible by economics laboratory products and services for household institutional and Industrial Cleaning worldwide will continue in the Twin Cities on ksjn. Am the time is just a couple of seconds now past 12:00 noon. And we will take your question next good afternoon, the Senators (00:47:00) listening good afternoon terrorism and the Seven remaining hostages in Lebanon. Mrs. Ben. We're spoke at our church in st. Paul and she reported our state department and administration would not even talk to those holding her husband for over a year isn't communication the first step in all decisions. And what is the Senate rule here? (00:47:22) Yeah. Obviously, you're right about the fact that that Communications is appropriate. The question always is with whom to communicate and and what their terms are in the beginning of some of these kidnap situations there was an effort to communicate and there was there was as there always is a denial that a particular person is responsible or particular organization is responsible. So, I don't know specifically mrs. Where could be absolutely right on that one? Because I don't know specifically what may have happened. Happened in each of the each of the seven cases. I know however though that we have spent an awful lot of time trying to negotiate not with a group of two or three or four or five people directly because in most cases their demands are so out of the you know off the wall that they couldn't couldn't be met but trying to negotiate either with somebody like Barry who became the person in the among the Shiites in Lebanon who helped extricate those kidnappers from their problem or with the Syrian and there is an ongoing process because we know the syrians know where those people are and if the syrians they are a state at least these other people are not there the not anybody who can deal with it. They want to blow these people away. They'll do it. They don't have any political. They may have political demands but there's no way that they can answer demands. We might have back to them. So you try to deal at the level of somebody who can deliver and that is why I think more often than not we are found trying to work on behalf of the of the kidnap victims through either Lebanese or through syrians. And I think that's where we will have to try to keep the focus on the release of those 77 person. How did the intelligence agencies even try to infiltrate these the shadowy sorts of groups. Do they do they have any luck either trying to turn somebody over so they'll they'll be a sort of a counter spy, or do you try to get some spy into the group you do it both ways. And and if you think back to the late 60s and the criticism that came in the mid-seventies of our intelligence organizations, we were infiltrating American student organizations in this country in a variety of those sort of things and you can do it. Putting your person in the organization just having them report or you can as you say turn a person from loyalty to the organization to loyalty to the CIA or whatever organization happens to be doing it, which works better with these shadowy Middle East groups. Well in the case of the shadowy Middle East groups, we don't we're out of time to to infiltrate them. I mean, they're very hard to infiltrate the very small day. Everybody knows everybody else and the best you can do is to turn somebody and then send them in and or try to turn somebody who might be within within an organization, but that's extremely difficult to accomplish because in this case at least their cause is so radical that the that the appeal but you have to make to them to turn them in an ordinary sense is not possible. Okay. Let's take some more listener questions. Go ahead. You're (00:50:50) next. Well, I never met Senator during Burger. He sounds like a really nice honest person. But I want to make a few points and then I'll hang up and listen to your response people who are terrorists are people who are fighting against a very big governments and they don't have the kind of power that the United States and Russia has they're fighting against things that have been done to them and nobody seems to be concerned about that at all. And you know you the attitude is well, it's not clear what has been the Americans have done to them Americans have supported the type of government that has sent CIA people in who have murdered people all over the country who have arranged for the removal of government or unstabilized government which resulted in the death of government in Chile and other places human beings died. I watched on television when the Israeli bombs were going into Lebanon and I saw I knew a lot of people were dying because I saw all of those those things going in and nobody got upset about that. It happens on both sides, but Conserve never been honest with anyone the American government. We weren't honest with the American Indians. We destroyed a lot of them blacks are 20 percent unemployed in this country if whites were twenty percent unemployed. They be having a (00:52:09) revolution. All right, sir. Thank you for your observation getting just a little far afield there on all of that stuff. Let's get Senator during Burgers response and move on. Well, I can understand why the why the caller will get can sympathize for those who are repressed by bigger governments or larger majorities of ethnic racial population that is out there that has been part of the history of people ever since the good Lord took the rib out of even or out of Adam and made made Eve. This is not to condone. It is only to only to explain it. But in any case it is it is a matter of to what degree does a very small minority in some case. Have the right to kill innocent people as a way of achieving their end, maybe go after the guilty people but don't take down 300 people in a TWA TWA airliner and kill them because you don't like what the Israelis may be doing in in southern Lebanon. I don't think you can justify that sort of thing under any circumstances. Okay. We'll take some more listener questions now, go ahead please you are (00:53:24) next. Yeah. Thank you. I noticed for the Minnesota Minneapolis. Aquatennial. There's a Air Force jet in front of me up of City Hall. Are you going to be supplying any more covert Aid help us to take on the state of Minnesota. (00:53:38) No, I'm looking. I can't imagine did the did the jet just land on on 5th or 6th Street, or (00:53:46) I think it's a must be armed. That correct? (00:53:49) No, I you got me. I I'm just going going as a civilian riding in a 1926 automobile. And I can't imagine that that we're doing any of that sort of thing on the aquatennial. Thank you. All right. Thanks for your call. Eight minutes past 12:00. Noon. Take just a couple more here. Go ahead. You're (00:54:07) next. Yeah, what people don't understand because of the media blackout is at the terrorists deployments are part of a pre-war deployment by the Soviet Union. The Syrian president was in Moscow during the hostage crisis the Soviets will only back down when we take military action against these countries as a statement of strength the Soviet to the Soviet Union. We need to have a crash defense program which accentuates the SDI. Thank you. Thank you. (00:54:36) All right one more listener with a question. Okay, you're (00:54:39) the best. I'm calling from st. Paul and I'm wondering exactly why it is that the contras need our humanitarian assistance. (00:54:48) Sure. I don't know that that they have to have food. I know they need boots and that sort of thing everybody in Nicaragua needs boots. Everybody needs medical assistance. There are a lot of things that all nicaraguans need the the purpose of the resolution that was passed in the senate in the house to provide humanitarian Aid to the what the president is called the Freedom Fighters. The sandinistas have called the contras. I'll call the the Democrats as opposed to the to the sandinistas is simply to signal to the rest of the Central American countries Costa Rica, which is having problems with Nicaragua Honduras El Salvador Guatemala Panama. And so forth that we will stay with the revolution in Nicaragua until it has reached a conclusion that is in effect participated in by all. All of the original revolutionaries and that is the whole purpose of doing the resolution around humanitarian Aid just to say that the United States will continue to play a supportive role for Democratic Revolution. All the phone lines are clear. That's not silly couldn't fill them up again in a second. I think that will will let sleeping dogs lie is they say senator durenberger. Thank you very much for coming in and sharing your thoughts with us today. Now, it's off to the aquatennial parade this afternoon, right? Yes. It sure is I'm gonna be writing in a car. Yes. I'll be in a 1926 something-or-other. I'm not sure which and looking over my shoulder to see whether Rudy boschwitz gets out of his car wipes his brow or what how he met handle it and and and usually what I do in the aqua to every parade is different but in the aquatennial parade because there are thousands of people behind you in the Raid it really isn't smart for either Bosh with her during bigger to spend a lot of time walking which means that everybody else gets held up in the parade lap last an extra half hour. So I think what you'll find both of us doing if you're interested in parade tactics and through D published his famous paper on the subject as you may see both of us art of in and out of the cars as it's appropriate ride when you need movement and don't don't want to drop behind the person ahead of you and walk when you stopped at a corner because the traffic is as slow down and get out of the car and shake a few hands and say hi to a few folks. How many handkerchiefs did you take to mop your brow other Rudy's got all the Yankees? Yeah. Thank you, Senator Mark. I said looks like a good good afternoon for the parade still doesn't it a lovely day shaping up all around the state of Minnesota today temperatures in the Twin Cities now, it's 75 and Rising with sunny skies prevailing so good. They do pretty much anything out. Doors. Well, thank you. Bob Potter. 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