Chips well, here are the numbers as of 11:30 Central Time the Dow Jones average at 30 industrial stands at 1279.37 up 6620 Transportation issues down 2.55 15 utilities down Point 52 and 65 stocks down Point 70 today's broadcast of midday is made possible by wtcm news 11. This is Minnesota Public Radio membership word service. This is the news and information service at Minnesota Public Radio. Ksjn. The Minneapolis-Saint Paul cloudy sky is 51 degrees. The following presentation is part of a continuing series on public policy issues made possible with a major Grant from Medtronic Incorporated. On this is Dan Olson in the Twin Cities with me today Chris Johnson from the Citizens League and g Nelson from Duluth who is president of the Minnesota school boards Association, our topic educational reform in Minnesota. And that one of the specifics of that the Open Enrollment provision the Open Enrollment provision on that note a news flash from both Kurt and Jean who have just come fresh from the Capitol in st. Paul where they attended Senate committee session where one of the boats taken was on the Open Enrollment provision of the Senate education Bill Jean what happened of the bill relating to open enrollment did pass and so therefore the Open Enrollment provision is no longer part of that Senate Omnibus education belt version of the education bill is there I'm alright, so that's a little bit of news to our conversation with Kurt and with Jean about their positions on educational reform of Minnesota Public School. Close and we'll get to a bit of introduction on that in just a moment reminder that will be giving out telephone numbers that you can call to put your questions to curtain to Gene about reforming public education in Minnesota a bit of History might be helpful over two years ago, the Minnesota Business Partnership join the ranks of those concerned about the quality of public education in the state Business Partnership is the group of chief executive officers of Minnesota's largest companies in the partnership hired a California Consulting Group for McGuire and Associates to assess the quality of Minnesota public education system and to recommend ideas for well those recommendations offered specific suggestions for changing the classroom environment changing teasing a teaching methods incentives for educators among other ideas. One suggestion was for open enrollment among Minnesota school districts in shortly after that report was released Governor perfect announced his ideas for reform a number of the ideas were put into the education bills now before the house in the Sun. And here's a rough outline of those Provisions one of the major provisions described as a Cornerstone open enrollment for Statewide students in grades 11 and 12 by the 1986 school year is open enrollment for grades 9 to 12 by 1988. And as you just heard that particular provision has now been stripped from both the Senate version and the house version of the education Bill another part of the Open Enrollment idea. That doesn't get a lot of press attention. Is that 11th and 12th graders would also be allowed to take college courses with a portion of their state aid following them to pay for the cost of the course at an institution. There are other reform Provisions, which also do not receive a great deal of attention to the state Arts High School has been reported on to some degree the reform package would set aside money for Grants to school districts in computer science and other academic areas and there are Provisions for staff development for teachers in for administrators. Well, that's a very general in rough outline. But some of the education reform Provisions Geno Sans group, the Minnesota school boards Association does not support the perfect plan for open enrollment by the way, genius president of the school boards Association. She is a former Junior High School teacher. She is not working as a psychotherapist in family marital and women's counseling she is the parent of three children two of them enrolled in Duluth schools for Johnson is executive director of the Citizens League. He supports the purpose reform package and the Citizens League is a private nonprofit study group based in the Twin Cities. Mr. Johnson is a former teacher a former president of the Minneapolis Community College among other institutions and the parent of three children. So we bid you both welcome to telephone numbers that you can call to ask questions in the Twin Cities. You can call us at 227-6000. If you have questions for Gene Olson or Kurt Johnson to 276 thousand listeners outside the Twin Cities living with in Minnesota can call us no charge for this call. It is toll-free 1-800 652 9700 Jean what is the school boards Association concern with the perfect open enrollment idea of the governor's proposal that we do is support and perhaps we can talk some about some of those later we're concerned about the Open Enrollment proposal because we believe that it is a very narrow way in which to address what we believe needs to happen in Minnesota education. We think that there are problems in education Our concern is that opening access in terms of an exit provision will not indeed bring about Improvement will not bring about the increased access to Excellence for the vast majority of Minnesota students who will remain in those School Our concern is for finding a way that we can very responsibly address bringing all of Minnesota schools up to standards. We believe that is our task and we'd like to get on with that job rather than continuing to debate about Open enrollment. It's been said Kurt Johnson that the Open Enrollment provision would Empower students and parents in choosing an academic program? Another District if you will have how would that work? How would they be empowered? Well, it's simply reverse is the prerogative now in place and I right now and under the conditions of what is just an interconnected Monopoly your told where you've got to go and you better take whatever it was that fits or not. If there's one thing about which we all seem to agree is it it is that students have different needs their very different people and one kind of school one kind of curriculum one kind of methodology doesn't fit everybody. So the power that comes here has the power to make a decision about a good fit. It's the power to involve the parent and exercising a responsible choice. I take immediate issue with jeans contention that this is a narrow kind of strategy far from being narrow. It is as broad as anything that has been imagined on the reform front in this state. Modern memory it is fundamental. It opens up the system for people to fully utilize the public schools of the state which which are funded by the state. Alright, the positions are set. Now we have calls on the line will take the first set of college. Good afternoon. We're listening for your question never seen. And black and white and I was supporting somebody in International Falls really wants to attend some special high school that has courses in technology science Arts, whatever that's only in the Twin Cities and so he wants to transfer down here or she what about room board lodging. That's what I think that's inexpensive. How does one control and that sort of means necessary for the student? So you just begin Dan that under this bill. You have no real difference in the present situation. I mean people can. Take a look at what's available now and if they see a kind of school somewhere that meets their needs better than they are certainly free to move. But it's a real estate decision. It's a decision to pick up a family and go somewhere and indeed some families do that. further of there is a lot of movement going on that is relatively unregistered these days people are getting from one kind of District to another but because we don't really permit that openly we caused people to to do this in the Subterranean fashion to invent fictitious addresses or live with relatives or do other things in order to avoid paying tuition in order to go to another another school jaina reaction illustrates, one of the problems that we are the school board's organization have about how about this proposal? It may work in a metropolitan area where students can have very easy access to a neighbouring district. It's more difficult for those students who reside in other parts of the state and I think sometimes we tend to forget that there's more to Minnesota than the metropolitan area of the way that the bill is written. There is no provision for funding for room and board that was very clearly spelled out. There's another program however in the state which very few people know about which is a pro. Aamco programs for excellent. We're very excellent programs are identified incidentally because of their Excellence not just by pure chance and that provision is made for students to attend those programs and live with another family. And so again, we're as there is no funding there is an attempt to find housing for those students similar to what we have in an AFS program. For example, where foreign students spend time in our school district. What is there to oppose in the governor's initiative? How is a student's rights or opportunity to education harmed by expanding his prerogative to make a choice. I have a feeling a caller will bring up possible harm will get to the next caller right now. Good afternoon. We're listening to station have anything to do with upgrading curriculum in the school at the students are attending. For example, I'm concerned about language arts. Where are students went through the Saint Paul school system, they never got anything in writing. The testing on material is always true and false multiple choice. That one teacher said, how can I teach myself? What is there anything in here that's going to improve it back at the local school in the open enrollment process that would directly do that. But there are other Provisions in the bill, which we very strongly support incidentally which provide a large amount of money for staff development that provides at some of that money can be used for Cricket on development. So that teachers as they are for example in our Duluth District are working very hard to develop a writing curriculum. It provides time for teachers to work in the summer to work on Creek elem development and we have not had time and we have not had the resources in the last few years because of budget cuts for our staff members to really pursue getting on with Excellence within our own district. And I think that's one of the exciting things that Legislators now providing us with the colors of the problem here isn't money and that there is more opportunity to change the things that need to be changed in schools. If there were the will to do it and what this bill is about as incentives what this bill is about is breaking up your credit control over the Enterprise. This bill gives people a reason to reorganize education a reason to do something different in the classroom and we suggested it's not likely to happen without this kind of incentive will take the next caller. Where are you calling from and your question? proposal that would guarantee access to local neighborhood if the program is very successful local gyms might be denied access to Local School District getting applications from students interested in attending that District because of an excellent program can turn down applications is a trying to not accept students to decide that for whatever reason in and often times a limitation of space or a facility need need not accepted students. However, once the decision is made by District to accept students, they then must treat all comers like they can't just decide to accept the seven foot basketball players. They have to decide to accept all students. Reply if more applied and there is space for the decision would then be made by Lottery. The administration who will be allowed to leave the district the district must control because part of the proposal and I think very wisely so was a decision that anything that happens cannot disrupt or put a district in violation of desegregation guidelines as a result the provision in the statute, which of course has now been totally deleted is that for Minneapolis-Saint Paul and Duluth to require an additional amount of time for applications to be made so that all of those numbers and percentages can be sorted out afternoon. Go ahead, please. I have a concern about Open Enrollment. I don't think that parents and students are in a good position to determine what is best educationally and I'm afraid that doesn't open enrollment went through that school systems would be marketing flashy type things that sound good on the surface that may not necessarily be the best educational and I like the participants that a comment on that agree with her assessment is what was their propensity to do this sort of thing. We've heard for so many years how we've got to get parents involved again, and it didn't the educational equation that their disappearance is a major factor in the collapse of serious. You got to give the parents something responsible and important to do they're not interested. I think and just attending another advisory committee meeting or adding another voice are offering more input if parents had the Cancel responsibility along with their kids to decide on the school then decide on the program that fits you'd have them back. You have the psychological commitment and I just don't believe that but there is any lack of capacity or lack of interest in getting involved in that decision with parents both in the classroom and in a counseling, so I guess I'm not equally convinced that parents or students necessarily always make the wisest decision. Neither. Am I convinced that school districts are teachers make the best decision for kids. I don't think there's anyone else on that one, but to insist that all parents or students would make wise decisions. I personally have dealt with some real tragedies about decisions parents and children have made about their life not necessarily and educational issue. I think one of them may be best examples we have of what can be done. Well with parents is in what we do a special education where we don't just let a pair Decide to place a child or not place a child in special education. We work with apparent. There's a process. There's a definite appeal process for parents who do not believe their child is served. Well, and I think that's a wise way to make decisions about children to not leave that only two parents are kids are only to a school system but to work with operatively and make that decision heating though the flashy programs computer science super computer science Dance Moms. Whatever is that realistic concern, I don't know you're going to fool the public very long are very much about that sort of thing. I think what you would get his school districts voting serious attention to understanding what it is. They're putting out there making sure it's something that does appeal to people and getting very good at explaining that to the public. I think you'd find that counseling would take a different kind of Direction in school district will be very good at explaining the differences and opportunities to people so they can make a decision on the basis of the type of program and its quality. I think there is a danger that increasing school time and resources what time and money and they're both resources would be spent on marketing. I think there's a danger in marketing a a very popular of are currently popular programs. They such as computer programming and saying that this is what our school has to offer. Unfortunately that can be done at the expense of for example, the fifth grade reading program because there are limited resources in school district and I would be concerned that in the development of what you might think of his very sexy program that would attract people you may be indeed jeopardizing some of the very basic skills that were entrusted to teach possible like that happen. If we got to remember here that the beginning point of marketing is understanding what you're offering is re-evaluating your own curriculum re-evaluating the service the product but you're putting out there. What this bill is about this bill changes the incentives that changes a conversation that goes on around the board table. That's what it seemed that we have other colors will get to the next one. Go ahead with your question, please. It appears that the governor is supporting a competition instead of cooperation. And I was wondering if mrs. Olsen or the other gentleman could talk a little bit about some of the things that are happening now in cooperation that may be affected by this bill. I think you're very exciting things going on around Minnesota that are directly related to cooperation and cooperation. Incidentally that was really encouraged at the state level with resources provided by the state through a Cooperative Ledic lovey. There are many small districts that are cooperating and a variety of ways some of them share teachers to offer a course of low incidence students of foreign language course, for example, or high-level Math course, there have for years been vocational cooperatives are special education cooperatives. There are also a great number of things happening in the technology area where we have talking Blackboard and we have ways that the services of a teacher in one District can be shared with students in another District through the use of technology. I would be concerned frankly that many of the efforts that we've made to cooperate would be jeopardized if school districts were now put in a competitive situation. I don't think that would have to necessarily be the case. But I'm talking now about some of the I think the Practical and realistic concerns that involve us. If you're going to cooperate you need a great deal of trust and you need a great deal of a security in terms of your relationship with a neighbouring district. And I'm not that sure that District would be as willing to cooperate if indeed they felt that District through the cooperation May next year at 10 full time. Take one quick. Look at the post-secondary education sector in the state. I would argue that there is more cooperation going on in that sector across the public institutions in Minnesota more collegiality more Reaching Across line than there is in the K through 12 sector and no sector is more dramatically competitive for the bodies that are out there than the public post secondary sector in this state. So the two ideas are not incompatible. They are not mutually exclusive. I'm struck by the dramatic increase in both the incidence and in a talk about cooperation this year and I would tie that directly to the leverage that this bill with his growing support represent. There's a case of a of to Metropolitan Area School District where there have been people literally across a backyard from a high school that parents been arguing for years their kids will be able to go to suddenly those tubes school boards get together and Hammer out an agreement that is actually more liberal than the one that the governor's proposing. I would argue because of the leverage that this bill represents. I think that there is a great deal of cooperation. I would suggest that the efforts of people are saying during this year are actually the efforts that are bearing fruit from something that occurred in previous years and certainly before the governor's proposal. I I have problems when we start comparing the K-12 system with the Post secondary system. I think we have to recognize that a basic difference. Is that schools in Minnesota? And the K-12 system is charged with educating all of the children that come across our door. We are not a specialized system. We do not have the prerogative of Turning Away children who don't happen to fit our particular mold and I think that is a difference between K-12 in the post-secondary system and we'll get to the next one right now. Good afternoon. We're listening for your question has more space in citizens in school boards, and I'm trying to find the consistency in his position when he contends and points out that most many schools are not making an effort to improve their efforts. So that would suggest that he doesn't have that much faith in citizens in school boards to improve. their local educational offerings a traditional function and school buildings to me it seems to be has been to build a sense or feeling of community at both the neighborhood and the community-at-large level and you think that might be threatened with the loss of concerned parents who traditionally have been working to improve education by their moving to another district will be a social cost and a loss. Representing it represents both a short in a long-term social cost of unknown Dimensions, or I could you want to defend very inappropriate to get overly exercised about social cost just because you got Mobility it happens. Now, I would say that I'm sorry if I misled to call her about the my representation of school board. I think it's entirely consistent to say that they always react rationally to the incentive system that's there right now. There is no incentive system to change and were those incentives to be altered under the terms of the governor's open enrollment bill, then you would have a very different kind of behavior and I would expect them to do the very things that would make their districts quite successful. I guess I would suggest that those of us who serve on school boards are often proposed for the masochist of the Year Awards and I think the incentive than most of us have for serving on school boards that we very deeply believe in education and that that indeed is our incentive for wanting to improve improve what happens in our district. I couldn't agree more that schools and that school identity is a very important part of the community and that that Community identity is something that's very important to kids and maybe I feel that more strongly because I grew up in small-town Minnesota, but I know that repeatedly in the long range planning and in the reports that we get from the citizens in the parents who were involved in the school planning and School District again, and again, we hear of the school centrality and that Community as a major employer as a provider of interest in a whole variety of activities of the cultural center that school is very very important and that Child identity with community eye. One of the things that I I would very strongly Advocate as a family counselor is it that sense of community and that sent to extended family is very important to get and I would suggest maybe more important than Mobility just a quick rejoinder school. It's not performing. Well is not Central to the interest of any community in a school that is performing. Well is not threatened by this proposal. All right, we have other colors and we'll get to another question right now. The time is about 25 minutes after 12 that afternoon. We're listening. I have two questions. I want to know first are the children that is the 11th and 12th graders in their own District assure to place in their own school. If for example of a happened to Tanner real well equipped or have you cleaned your high rated high school and how is that that position of shirt and my second question is does this bill? Also provide serious practical measures for a demanding Excellence from the teachers which would override that teachers seniority. Yes be residents of a district do have first claim on any positions in those programs. And as I said before if those positions are filled if a school does not have room in a particular program, they have no obligation to accept student. Secondly, there are no measures in the current bill open enrollment or otherwise that do take precedence over seniority or they do anything other than again in the area staff development and don't ever underestimate the importance of that staff development provision. If indeed we want to upgrade the teaching that goes on in classrooms. It's critical that we upgrade those skills. My only comment down is that we've had enough experience in the last decade or so with combining mandates and more spending. And when I going to get serious Improvement by demanding it, the only we're going to we're going to get serious improvements to restructure the system. I think the teacher is the Forgotten person in this whole argument more and more teachers are willing to say how demoralized they are how powerless they feel to create change on their own and in my judgment if we change the incentives, we would find Administration is devolving a whole lot more Authority and power and responsibility to make the important decisions back to the level of the teacher where we can really make something happen in the classroom. Can I wouldn't disagree that it's important to do that. I'd disagree on the method in which we get there another method that many school districts are doing is using increase participatory management quality of work-life Labor Management Group, really involving and empowering. School teachers and terms of curriculum. And what goes on in their classroom. I I do have to say something very strongly about the area of resources when everybody is as an educational Community we ask for resources were accused of being greedy and throwing more money at the problem. I think we have to recognize that any type of change we want to make an education does take resources if we want to lower class side. That's a very expensive proposition if we want to upgrade our Learning Materials, we have to buy them and we have no way to print money. We have no way to do that without resources. We should just checking a few numbers that I think I have in control the Education bill that will evolve from the legislature with appropriate 2.6 billion dollars is that right for the state's portion of the education bill that will be matched at the property tax level at the local level by about another 2.6 billion. Is that right roughly for a total of something over 5 billion dollars to be spent in school year 1986. I guess I'm public education Minnesota K through 12. Well, somebody will know. Correct me on those figures if they weren't exactly right. They have real accurate figures. They were changing yet again today in the Senate bill. I think one of the things that we do need to acknowledge is that education has been a very high priority the top priority of our legislature and of are several previous Governors, and we appreciate that and I think the people in Minnesota indicate their support for Education as a priority one of the misperceptions, I think about Finance of Education in this session is that We perceive a great deal of shell game going on in that there is a lot of transfer back and forth of funding, for example, the teacher retirement money, which was previously picked up by the state is now being transferred back to local district. There are caps being put on special education funding. There are some very serious changes being proposed in the house side in terms of afdc, and in terms of acknowledging education overburden for students with special needs and so there are parts of that legislative package that are still a real concern and the perception that education is getting huge increases in this budget session is just not true. I like that case denied not saying that the money is he was a problem here or the answer. Moreover are I think if we got serious Improvement in the performance of our public system, we might find that there is a different outer limit to the public will to spend on education. The time is 12:30. Your questions are being answered by Kurt Johnson who is executive director of the Citizens League based in the Twin Cities and also by Gene Olson who is president of the Minnesota school boards Association in a school board member from Duluth. We have several callers on the line. I think a couple of lines open in the Twin Cities to 276 thousand 2276 thousands of Twin Cities number. There is a number for those of you living outside the Twin Cities within Minnesota no charge for this call at 1 800-652-9700 1 800-652-9700 will take the next question. Go ahead place with your question like a question and concern related to funding and you may help address part of it. Just a moment of all the first I'd like to make a comment that But I've done some reading on this end Minnesota's total K-12 education with spinach have dropped significantly within the last 10 years by 16.5% I believe and it is that I'm more substantial decline than most other that States including all Midwestern states my question though. It does relate to funding and generally what type of funding is accompany me open and how are the funding work for students choosing to a can of post-secondary institution General funding in the types of cuts that have occurred and some discussion of what the effects of those have been and how that impacted our chance to really perform and have kids perform relating directly to the funding in the open enrollment proposal. It doesn't really I didn't really ask for a great deal of funding funding was basically related directly to Transportation costs. And approximately $900,000 was allocated for transportation cost. There are I think even more concerned that we have about the portion of the bill which dealt with post secondary funding. We already have the opportunity and the ability under the law for secondary students to attend post-secondary institutions and to receive credit for those courses in their own high school. What is new about this proposal is that we now would be sending K12 money into that post secondary system to pay for those courses and I would like to remind our listeners that we're not merely talking about a student who has for example, exhausted all the local options in mathematics and Duluth in and our neighboring communities and another areas. We have kids who've gone to the John Hopkins math program and are now taking College Matt and we encourage that to our school system. What's new here is it students would be able to take up a real course in basket weaving or any other class? but they would choose and we would be for us to school district to use some of our very limited resources to pay their tuition at that post secondary school in spite of her reference to a very precise figure that the only way you're going to find any decline in real terms and spending on education in this state in any kind of. Of the recent past is to pick a terminal year that it says price of a recession when the state was asking for a lot of givebacks in Minnesota as elsewhere real spending on education went up over the last decade or so during the very time that performance by any measure we've been able to conceive went down I think Gene is raising his interesting point Kurt about this issue of 11th and 12th graders being allowed to take college courses that may have no importance or very little importance to any kind of academic goals basket weaving end and the state would end up picking up part of the tab for then any hypothesis enables gene or me to Examples at the extreme or the margin. I think it's kind of patronising for us to assume that people will make frivolous trivial or irresponsible choices and jeans already acknowledged. I think guy respectfully that turning these decisions over simply to administrators and teachers is no fool to surance that you're going to get extremely rational fully inform kinds of choices either. I just don't think that would happen. All right, let's take another color with a question. Good afternoon. We're listening. Common interview questions about a comment in one quick question studying major proposals before enacting new legislation and it seems that there is a huge to jump the gun on this issue and it's sort of curious that there's a sense of urgency when you're a 2 of studying and answering all these questions could be evaluated. My question isn't it gets back to the question that was asked quite a while ago about the harm that the present a proposal for choice I could cause and that is what would happen to the schools. That would be losing students as a result of their decision to go elsewhere and not just taking their bodies, but also taking their CD chair. All right, we'll give Kurt first practice is almost guaranteed to disagree about this. I think that in terms of your encouragement that more study be invested in it. If you're going to bet on the outcome of this legislative session, I think the odds are they were going to get the opportunity to invest more study in this proposal. And then and then the point about what would happen to school districts would lose students will give you a minute is going to react program better. But there's a clear message in The Disappearance of some students if they vote on the quality question by walking away. You're going to get a response out of the district and I submit is going to be a good one. Jean I take it. This is what a lot of rural districts are worried about that. In fact, they're going to die on the vine because some of their students are going to take off and take their stayed with him. This is why many people are concerned by and again, I have to be so crass as your talk about resources because we don't have the luxury of just being idealistic about it. If a one student moves or two or three students move from a district, they carry their stayed with them and the stator basically what we use to finance an educational program in school in the state of Minnesota student Foundation Aid portion with him and that could Very we could lose, you know to $3,000 with a single student leaving. So it doesn't take many students leaving before indeed that school district again, because whether we like it or not and whether we are interested money or not, we'd have less money. We would have to cut a staff position which in sometime some schools many of those same school districts could mean losing an entire curricular area that they would have to lose and we do not believe that the students who remain in that District would have any increased access to Excellence and we do believe indeed that they would be harmed by this proposal. That's the nature of our disagreement if people are going to leave in the kinds of numbers that are going to cause this condition than something needs to be done there and it's no great favor to those people to hold them all inside this fence. Currently, I would suggest instead and what the educational Community has been talking about but haven't really gotten much attention is that we do something instead. I'm sure that the students who are in all of our district do receive a sound education in a vast variety of opportunities what that means is developing some realistic standards. It means developing a process to leave monitor in to evaluate that District performance and it means developing some very realistic consequences. If a district does not do the job. They should be required to do forget. All right, let's go back to the phones and take another color with the question good afternoon. Go ahead place by Zeus resources. I think there's an assumption that school districts have the same ability to manage their resources as businesses do with the state mandates and protected jobs and resources that are not always wear that you need them. I wonder how the governor and legislature feel that school districts will be able to indeed address these problems when they can't manage their resources as Easily put the things that they need in the places that they need them quite often to address the concerns that were talking about that keeps a school district from making this kind of change. I don't know if one. Jesus School District from making what kind of change in order to choose? I don't know any mandate that stands in the way of a district doing that. I don't think I could stand in the way but I I would suggest that resources stand in the way or another caller with a question. We'll take it right now. Good afternoon. Please great expense. One of the reasons is that I don't care for some of the teachers. I wonder if someone would comment on the one proposal to have groups of teachers take over school or develop a program or programme and a private education and certainly that is an option for people who choose that. Who have money or I'm not sure that that's always a more expensive certainly Minnesota with its tax credit system has made that more of a viable option if we're talking about what I think is a problem and that is trying to ensure that every child receives the received their teaching from an excellent teacher and we have to acknowledge two things one is that they're always going to be different degrees of excellence and different perceptions of Excellence. I learned when I was teaching that people who may do well in my class may not do well with a different type of teacher vice versa. There were students that I couldn't serve well at all because of my own particular style. I think also that our opportunity to do something realistic in the area of staff development and I'm thinking now of many of the school districts in the state we're working with the Madeline Hunter model of instructional Effectiveness. It is very effective in helping teachers really zero in on those instructions. Scouts good after all that's what it's all about is what happens between a teacher and that child don't have much of a choice. That's true in this bill is really aimed at giving everybody the charge that affluent families now have I think it's curious that the education organizations representing the public school district's here have not seen so far that this bill represents an opportunity to recapture people like the color you just had who now it be on vacation was at a great expense put their kids in private schools because they don't think they got adequate choice in the public system. This bill would offer the kind of choice that would recapture that very kind of person respect their reasons, but I would not be interested really and restart during our Public Schools so that we provide for example for the people who leave for religious Choice reason to want a particular religious group. I would not want to eliminate our efforts to deal with drug education or with family life education for those parents who do not like that aspect of the creek elem. I would not want to take books out of our library because of the kids people who leave because they don't like some of the books that are in the library. I think we have to be very careful when we look at our responsibility to serve the majority of the students in our school history tells like we disagree on the reason people leave. All right, we have other colors to let's get to the next one. Good afternoon. We're listening. Go ahead. Go ahead place. 15 kids might lie just be gay to go to District be because it had a more structured curriculum that they wanted in 15 kids might go from District me to just be gay because it had a less which they wanted. Is it all come out in the end. I think it could be open to question. I think the basic assumption. Is it school districts vary widely in what it is they offer to kids and I think one of the reasons for the Governor's proposal is that he and others were interested in reforming Minnesota education would like to see indeed more variety among school districts. And I think that's a viable point of view. I think the reality is that because we are charged with providing comprehensive education. We are probably going to continue to find more variety amongst instructional methods or Delivery Systems within the metropolitan area, then we are The areas where schools again because of the charge to provide a comprehensive education. There is not going to be I don't think there's much difference or his dramatic a difference among school districts. In other parts of the state. Nothing to add to that. Alright for for a rare moment to Kurt Johnson is silent on a response from Geno's and so will let that stand will get back to the telephone right now with another question. Good afternoon. We're listening. I've got two questions. First of all, I would like to know if the Open Enrollment concept would give the school's an opportunity to specialize or in some cases to deturck diversify their educational programs. And my second question is how do Minnesota schools compared to other states schools in as far as quality of education is concerned. All right, Quarter G. Neither one of you on that differs question about allowing schools to specialize is open enrollment became if he'll agree with Jean that I think that part of the objective here is to encourage the kind of diversity that creates a system in which people can find the type of education the types of course has the sort of program and the kind of methodology that fits the kind of thing that things are going to succeed with that is most certainly one of the aims of this initiative on the question of quality. It's always difficult to address that without seeming to be putting down the system nor started taking it off its pedestal but we've had a tendency to believe in Minnesota that is better than it is the best as you can measure our performance and admittedly there lots of problems and legitimate arguments about the way we do measure it. We come out about air Bridge or a little above average on most national scales and if that's all right. Then we ought not to have any more conversation about it. But if it's not all right, if we got to get serious about how we're going to improve it just a couple of responses one is in in terms of the measurement of performance or achievements for a Minnesota students. I think we have to agree that there are not many really clear conclusion that can be drawn and certainly not conclusions that would lead to extremely radical reform efforts and we have to be very leery about I think any of that type of discussion second right? Although I also would think that there is very little disagreement as you talk with people nationally that Minnesota schools and the system of Education Minnesota is still considered a front-runner now, I'm no way saying that we are perfect. I'm no way saying that there we don't want to continually improve and but I don't think anyone would really argue that Minnesota is highly respected among the states. My second statement has to do with I think it's a different philosophy about education again. I admit to being a supporter of comprehensive schools. I believe that that's our charge to provide a comprehensive education to students. I think one of the dangers of specialization is that some of those comprehensive basic programs can get lost another danger of specialization is that it's a model that can work most effectively only when you have large numbers of students and I'm talking now about secondary specialized programs not Elementary programs, which tend to deal with different methodologies. If for example of school system is going to develop a special science program, they would have to be a relatively large school in order to also provide a very general comprehensive program a smaller school could develop a specialized program only at the expense of something else and that is a different philosophy. We have other colors with questions will take another one. Good afternoon. Go ahead place. Okay. Well, it's not strictly speaking open enrollment or any of the other things within the reform package, but what the heck you may as well take a shot at the homeschooling Jean I suppose you've got a fair number of parents who you encounter in the Duluth District Two more interested in this idea. I would like to address that issue on a personal level not speaking for my organization and that would be my concern as someone in the area of counseling. I I would have concerned that education for a child or for young person involved much more than the accumulation of data and above information. And I think that could be accumulated at home. I think education also has to do with the interaction of other people particularly the interaction of other young people of their age and I would be concerned that that's what the child is losing under a homeschooling mile. Rating is a phenomenon is mostly a reaction to not having enough choice. And it seems to me that we could appeal very directly to those people by doing the most fundamentally American thing. You can imagine. I let people choose the education that fits with other colors will get to the next question. Hello. We're listening believe that as a parent of school-age children that the incentive that's going to work. The best to get school Improvement is to apply some of the free market practices that work in business and in the secondary post-secondary education to RK through 12 system. Believe that the and I'd like to hear mr. Johnson's comments on this. This is major effect of this bill is going to be in the metropolitan area not probably so much and in rural Minnesota, and I'd like to know what he feels about that. Sorry. We got off that color but opportunity that may be outside the metropolitan area. That's where you have the probably more than 200 school districts likely staring at the possibility of force consolidation. If something doesn't give here in the tension between standard and resources. I think we underestimate the kinds of interest in Mobility the kinds of opportunities that there are the the numbers of people out there who are close to an alternate even who would exercise that kind of choice. If it were there there's where there may be the most imaginative possibilities for cooperation in four different structures that school districts might put together. I I would basically like to address the free-market portion of her comments because I think she's right that while the intent maybe to do something about accessing the rural areas. The intent of the final result would not indeed be that but I have problems with applying the free market principles education the number of businesses that end up going broke in the first year. I do not think is a principle that we can afford to apply to our public school. We really we know we've undergone a lot of risks and try a lot of new things that have been suggested we've gone through modular scheduling and we've gone through Modern math and they have not all met with a great deal of success and I agree that change is slow and reform is slow in school district, and I'm not really so sure that's a bad thing. We're not talking about any free market. There is no danger of public policy imposing anything close to a free market on K through 12 education. We are talking about Moving from Richard bureaucratic control to the regulated opportunity to choose not with the resources in the thousands of mandates placed on school districts by the state colors with questions will take the next one. Hello. We're listening. Yeah. My concern is the quality of the education and if you're going to produce magnet schools or try to draw people in because of certain course offering my observation from roommate during grad school days who grew up in Honolulu that any parent there who can afford it puts their children in private school and pays tuition all the way as far as they go in education because of the low low quality of their Public Schools. What we don't have that problem last week. I had the opportunity to teach two classes at a Junior High in the subject and it was only two years ago that I volunteered to do this and it took that long to accept the Gratis input for somebody who is interested in rounding out and enlarging the quality of those classes. I'd like you're coming. Well, jean, I can't comment on the personal situation I know that certainly there are district to welcome people from the community coming in there are also District who have more restrictions and have more problems and turn to welcoming that input. All right with other colors with questions will stick the next one hello go ahead with your question My question is the closest statements questions that you can answer what schools are but I think I'd like to have some of your address before no colleges that teach the teachers. I feel that they're not doing really a good job. I think the courses that students required to take in college are really don't read it and they don't set you up for work teaching the student. Okay. Thank you. I'll come and former College president hear Kurt Johnson defend yourself where I know you didn't have any education courses if your conversation that I think there is a serious conversation going on right now, and there's a lot of evaluation going on right now at those institutions that offer teacher training with a effort to upgrade the quality of that don't think anybody would question that we need to do a better job of it, but the colors are The first comment suggests that he may be among those that satisfied with the way things are and I don't have any trouble with that as long as we understand the way things are. Just a comment about the colleges and I think continue discussion and debate will occur on the best way to train and educate teachers and I would hope that the teachers themselves being important part of that discussion. We do know that one of the effects that the college system does have and what happened in our schools is what the college does in terms of their entrance requirements and the fact that more colleges are now returning to stricter expectations of from students. I think is directly related to The increased numbers of math and science and language courses that we're seeing two kids take and I think that type of expectation that is said by a community which includes the college system does the great deals where young people but go ahead with your question, please that's a good that the good that comes in open enrollment. I'm reflect the students as individuals and that this policy would open up the idea of schools. I think in our world today. That is important at that people recognize themselves as members of community. And I think one of the bad things about this does open enrollment is that it would tend to divide people into by the idea of community and and thereby contribute to the sense in America that were a bunch of individuals rather than a community as well as a country and as a world what can you say to that respond? Well, I guess I just wouldn't tie a centrally is the collar does the the notion of holding onto the school. However, good it is or however mediocre it is that something you got to trust in order to build or sustain a sense of community. I wouldn't go to any serious disagreement out there that we want as high as sense of community and a blending of that with the importance of the individual as we can possibly achieve but getting good education. However, we must get it may be the better key to get in community. I'm going to call her has identified it that is this the common school has always been one of the real cornerstones of a democracy and what it is. We provide in the passing on of culture in the passing on of information to all of the kids in a comprehensive sort of schooling is critical and I don't think that there's anyone in the current debate who really would change that basic commitment to education and that basic charge to school broadcast. We had the news that the open-enrollment provision had been stripped from the Senate education Bill Gene. Is this the end of the Open Enrollment discussion that we are continuing to maintain a really healthy dialogue about the best ways to improve education. And again, I would like to really emphasize that the education establishment as well. I'll begin to be called is not really opposed to change your educational Improvement. But what we're saying is we really believe there somewhere effective ways to achieve that Improvement and we want to emphasize and I'm going to come get me into improving Minnesota schools. We want to emphasize are in continue desire to be part of that dialogue and not do be surprised by a type of solution that we don't believe it's really well grounded and experience with school districts. Well, I'm encouraged as you would suspect by What gene says I think that all of the groups and individuals that have been involved in the reform debate in this season. I do want to talk with the so-called education establishment do want their contributions and their experience to be a part of what what kind of proposal good shape. I II don't think it's over. I don't even think it's over in this legislative session with floor debate still to come on the other hand. It's it's it's fair to say that this proposal did come rather late just in advance of the session and there probably isn't the kind of general and Broad public understanding out there that you need to support politically this sort of change. I think when the folks find out what this proposal really means for their freedom and their opportunity and for their kids, but it's inevitable as a political matter Jane Kurt got the last word on you. I'm afraid we're gonna have to let it stand there Geno's and thank you very much president of the Minnesota School Board Association a member of the Duluth School Board. Text to Kurt Johnson executive director of the Citizens League based in the Twin Cities. This is Dan Olson reporting now back to Bob Potter. Thank you Dan this item just in from the Associated Press as you were conducting your discussion a federal jury in Pensacola. Florida has found two men guilty on all seven counts in the Christmas Day bombings of three offices where abortions were performed the wife of one and fiance of another were convicted of conspiracy. It's our midday broadcast for today Leo program a possible today, but the national assistance of wtcn news 11. This presentation of a public policy issue was made possible with a major Grant from the Medtronic, Minnesota Pioneer in biomedical engineering And the engineer for the broadcast David sleep, this is Bob Potter. Forecast for the Twin Cities is for mostly sunny skies this afternoon and a high temperature in the upper 50s and tonight mostly clear with a low in the 40s.