(00:00:05) Few showers and thunderstorms have spread into the Central and South Central sections of Minnesota. Now low pressure trough Over The Dakotas will move East slowly tomorrow and today and that will produce the possibility of more rain in Central and Southern Minnesota. Also a chance of scattered showers tonight and tomorrow it'll continue warm and muggy to with high temperatures today and tomorrow in the middle to Upper 80s across Minnesota in the Twin Cities area specifically will be variably cloudy this afternoon warm humid with a 40 percent chance of showers and thunderstorms. The high will be in the mid 80s tonight a 30 percent chance of rain with a low in the upper 60s partly cloudy tomorrow 20% chance of a thunderstorm and the high tomorrow once again in the middle to Upper 80s. We've been a number of news reports over the past few weeks about contaminated wells in Minnesota people not been able to use the water from their Wells for drinking and this may cause some people to think a bit more about caring for drinking water resource that appears to be so abundant that we just take it completely for granted. We will not be taking it for granted for at least this hour today Joel resilient is in the Studio's this noon to be take your questions about fresh water Joe is president of the freshwater Foundation a nonprofit organization which supports research and public information programs on fresh water. For example, the foundation raise the money to build a freshwater biological Institute, which is now operated by the University of Minnesota Joe welcome. It's a pleasure to have you here today to talk about something that we take for granted a lot of the time and I imagine people might be wondering what is all this gloom and doom about fresh water here in the Land of 10,000 lakes for goodness sake I think the thing that we tend to forget about water having so much of it available in the state of Minnesota. Is it like every other natural resource lives within a set of natural constraints? We call those Outer Limits and when you talk about stewardship wise use of your natural resources, you're really saying a person or a civilization should be wisely selfish in that they should learn to live within those constraints very simply put you don't cut down trees faster than they grow if you are dependent upon trees and what we fail to realize historically is that although there appears to be an awful lot of water. It has the same constraints as everything else and as our population increases and our water use increases we've added additional pressures faster than Mother Nature can adjust to them and it puts us in localized water problems. Okay, I can And how that would be the case certainly in the Sunbelt which is naturally pretty dry. Not much rain down there. Not much water. But Minnesota is the Land of 10,000 lakes. Why do we even need to think about supplies of fresh water? Minnesota actually should be should be charged with false advertising for saying 10,000 icicles are really 5300 and summer 200 and some but will Overlook that but when you talk about the Land of 10,000 lakes, you're really talking about a static condition of surface water. You're looking at a quantity figure and saying boy, we have a lot of that. Yeah, if to cite as an example of where that static condition doesn't apply is remember, we had a math Minnesota named Gary species who went all the way across the Pacific Ocean in a small boat. Now you've completely surrounded by water now if there was anybody that was water-rich it was Gary species yet. No one suggested to him that he shouldn't take along some drinking water you see and so what we're really talking about is available usable affordable water at the time and place that you want it if all you want to do is stand and look at our Lakes then certainly we are water rich but Want to eat the fish and somebody says you can no longer eat the fish because they're contaminated or you can only eat so many so many pounds a week you then are less water. It's than you were before if all of a sudden the the fishing population decreases and they say you've got it we've got to restrict the amount of fish that you can catch suddenly. You're no longer as water rich as you were before if as happened in Minneapolis in 77 during the drought when all of a sudden we were asking the question whether we have enough water supply for Minneapolis and st. Paul in the Mississippi River, then you question the condition of water-rich. So that's the generic statement. That's like saying my goodness he's tall that is only relative to the issue at the time will open the phone lines and let those of you who are listening ask some questions about freshwater this noon 2276 thousand for those of you in the Minneapolis st. Paul area with a question for Jill resilient outside the Minneapolis st. Paul area. Our toll-free number is Nine seven zero zero one eight hundred 6529700 and if you are listening in one of the surrounding states or in Ontario, you can call us directly in the Twin Cities at area code six one two, two two seven six thousand. All right, where does drinking water come from? When we talk about the Land of 10,000 lakes and when we look at the Lakes and we have ninety eight thousand miles of rivers and streams. We forget the fact that in the state of Minnesota 94% of the municipalities in the state get their drinking water from groundwater. That's the water down below the ground from Wells 66% of the people in the state of Minnesota get their water the drinking water from Wells. And the reason that number is so low is because Minneapolis and st. Paul both get their water from the Mississippi River directly or indirectly. So a high percentage of the state uses water underneath the ground, which is not factored into the water it State concept. Okay, I'd like to find out where that water comes from and how its replenished and we'll do that but there's a number of listeners on the line with question. So we'll go to the telephones now and take our first caller. Hi, you're on the air. (00:06:26) Yeah. I first would like to commend the freshwater people because they On two cars and they send literature very promptly and I'd appreciate it that my two concerns are these I think that people in other states eventually we'll be having designs on Lake Superior and they will want to tap that body of water. Oh like they do on the west coast and carry it for miles and aqueducts and I am sure that this takes long range planning, but my more basic concern is as a person who lives by themselves and uses minimal water because don't Water Garden or lawn or those kind of things then I am charged a water sewer minimum. There is no motivation to conserve. I can never remember seeing such a quick flush of a toilet as down in the Bahamas. Mama's where they have to collect rainwater because they don't have that much freshwater. I think that the (00:07:41) oh, I'm sorry. I guess we cut that collar off, but I think we have the gist of his question one having to do with the transport of water resources in the other the minimum charge. Let's die. Let's take the inter-basin transfer Point first that he talked about there are two basic problems or challenges with the whole concept of inter-basin transfer one is in the concept of doing and the second is in the relative cost. First of all, I have some concerns about massive inter-basin transfer and my concern is the perception that people have the we've discovered a new supply of water. You see of all the water we have in the universe. It's always been there and we've had all we're ever going to have and we have a process called the hydrologic cycle that occurs on a hot day like today watery evaporates off the face of the Earth and goes up and cools and it cools it condenses and precipitates. It comes back down and we don't have any new water were using the same stuff and of all the water that's their only three tenths of one percent is available usable fresh. Water that's in our in our universe only three tenths of one percent. Do we get to use 97% of salt 2 percent is glacial ice caps. We can't use those when so that so what you have to do is your Society has to see to it that you stay within the constraints of that three-tenths of 1% Now when you start massive inter-basin transfer you start giving the perception that you've discovered a whole new Supply. No, all you're doing is moving a piece of that same basic concept and so our that same basic amount. That's they're available to use now. That's the first thing that we have to keep in mind. The second is that the question of cost on inter-basin transfer with the states in the United States being hard up in the federal government being broken everything. We're looking for new ways to finance our state coffers and everybody looks at interstate transfer suddenly as a real opportunity to generate some income, but we have to keep in mind that the economy of the United States is based upon free water. And once we start charging for water, you're going to have to start factoring that in that happened in South Dakota where the state of South Dakota sold the Water behind the 0 Aji damn in the Missouri River to Coal slurry company and we did the figures on that to see what they charge two-tenths of a cent a gallon for the water at the source, which has never been done before in other words, you know, you can come get it with a bucket if you want to was going to cost you 2 cents for every 10 gallon for the water you haul off. Well, we factor that in to see what it would cost for example in the cost of food. If you added just to sense for the water you'd have to add three dollars for a hamburger french fries and cola meal at the my goodness. Hardys are wherever you'd have to add 60 cents to a loaf of bread $8.00 to a pound of beef. It would cost $85 for a dinner Thanksgiving dinner for eight people just for the water to grow at 75 cents for a dozen a dozen eggs $10 for a bushel of corn. Cora never has ever sold for more than two dollars two dollars and fifty cents a bushel. So you see there's enormous amounts of water used to produce food, and if you start charging for the water the concept of cheap food goes out the window immediately. So those are two real things that one needs to keep in mind second quickly the second point he discussed about cheap costs, and the reason for that is the rules for management of water in the in in the United States were all written at a time when we had a whole lot of water and very few people now, the reverse is true. We have great accumulations of people in specific areas where there isn't very much water. And in fact the rules the management everything is Obsolete, and we're gonna have to restructure that whole process if you remember California when they had the drought a few years ago, they asked people to cut back and so everybody cut back to the degree that the water Municipal Water Supply said you're going to use more water. We're going to charge you more. You see some people went back to using more water. Because they really weren't designed to adjust people adjusted faster than the bureaucracy is what happened? It's 12 minutes past noon Joe resilient in the Studio's today president of the freshwater Foundation. We have a few lines open still at to 276 thousand. If you have a question in the Twin Cities, our toll-free line is 1-800-662-2386. Another listener with the question. Hi, you're on the air. (00:12:07) Yes, you're on the air. Okay. Hello, Joe. Hi. I'm wondering what what new progress we have to report on the Technologies for alleviating acid deposition that you've talked about previously. (00:12:20) We've have a couple interesting phenomena that have occurred in Minnesota that we're kind of intrigued by we did we help sponsor a study with the blandin foundation in northern Minnesota and they made a couple discoveries one discover. They made was that there appears to be in the at the surface of the water a colony of bacteria that tend to go dormant when there's nothing to eat. And then when there's a great infusion of acidity in the rain this this colony of bacteria Blossom eat like mad break down most of the acidity and then go dormant again. We're not quite sure what specific Colony that is and the second question we need to ask is how how dispersed are they in the Eight are they in those really sensitive lakes in the northern part are aren't they? But what it really says is there may be an alternative to buffering besides Limestone bottoms, which is in the past the only kind of buffering we had in Lake a second an interesting phenomena. We discovered the time when the lake is most threatened or most stressed by acidity from precipitation is in the spring when the snow runoff occurs because there's a big buildup in the winter time and it's quite a shock to the lake. We have an interesting phenomenon Minnesota. That's also the same time when we have the big dust storms from North Dakota because of the Open Fields and that dirt that dust that flies in is very alkaline, and it tends to serve as a buffer to neutralize that that other shocks. So it's kind of a bad news good news. The bad news is North Dakota's losing some of their dust the good news is the state the lakes in Minnesota profit by that. So it's a that's that's the news. All right 14 minutes past the hour. Here's another caller of the And for Jill resilient, hi, you're on the air. (00:14:08) Yes. I'd like to ask Joe how he became involved in the freshwater programs in terms of what he's doing now and a second question about about statistics about per capita use of fresh water and so on and a third thing about how the state of California and some of the other semi-arid regions have the sorts of plans that have been talked about for dragging icebergs up in the Pacific Ocean and so on just talking about the transfer of those kinds of things and what the feasibility of that would be if you can comment on those things that appreciate (00:14:49) it. Yay. Those are good ones. Okay. First of all, how do I get involved? I got an offer that was too good to pass up. So what it boiled down to I was involved with building a college in Minnesota South West State University and had come at a point in time where it was time for me to make a change and I Invited to manage the freshwater Foundation. They were in the process of raising a lot of money and building the gray freshwater biological Institute and it got the point where they needed someone to manage it. And so I got invited to do that that was 10 years ago, and I've been doing it ever since and if I have my way I'll never quit. I enjoy doing it great per capita use of water in the United States today the average per capita use runs between 1800 and 2,000 gallons per day per man woman and child now interesting that figure that happens to be exactly the amount of available usable water. There is in our universe where I said only three tenths of a percent of all the water is usable that comes to about 2,000 gallons per day per man woman and child. So, of course as your population goes up that available use decreases one of the concerns, the reason we have problems United States today is because we're at that saturation point we're using water as quickly as it can be replaced and we're not we're not lowering our use Increasing it. And so that's why the stress occurs then you add to that. We're losing some supplies. We're losing for example, the entire water supply in the Ogallala Aquifer. That's that massive big aquifer that goes from Nebraska all the way down to West Texas. It's estimated that by the year 2010 ninety percent of all the water left in that aquifer all that will be left will be under the state of Nebraska. So that's a water supply now that you pump out and isn't being replaced. The state of Michigan is announced that by the year 1990 all of their water supply will be coming from the Great Lakes because they've established at their groundwater is now contaminated. That's a water supply that you lose you have to subtract that from that three tents. And so that just makes the problems that much more complicated as an American society. And this is his third question. We always try to find some quick fix and the first Quick Fix was a little drag these icebergs down because that's good good water. And even the cost of that was even prohibitive for the Saudi Arabians. Tried to bring it down and tried to melt and course. It's a very complicated process. You have to put up with bags aren't easy to catch the water and everything is a very complicated process and believe me. They gave it a good try because last year the water fresh water and Saudi Arabia was the same price as a barrel of oil. Hmm. And so, you know, they can afford that additional cost. Another quick fix we're trying to do is desalination device is why don't you D salty ocean with today's technology it cost about 20 cents a gallon. Did he salty ocean? And that's just a prohibitive figure to remember I said, you'd have to add $10 to A Bushel corn at at two cents for every 10 gallon 20 cents a gallon. You see would make that what $1,000? Well, what do you do then? I mean if we're getting the point where that aquifer that runs under Nebraska is going to run dry won't eventually to support the population won't be necessary to find some technology like these hellenization to support what we need. No, I think what we need to do is we just develop technology that uses less water. You see right. Now, we have high water. Use technology is not necessary just happens to work out that that's that's the direction of the technology went to me. The the motto for the 1990s is going to be reduced or reuse. The choice is yours in Colorado. For example, there is a company that will put in your basement of your house a fifteen hundred gallon tank, which is like we used to always have we always had an oil tank down to run or oil furnace fifteen hundred gallon tank and the gray water from your house goes into that tank. They'll Great Waters from your sinks. Okay showers and all that goes into the tank which then chemically treated and then is used to flush the toilet stool. Now, it's estimated that 40% of all the water used by any single family is used in Flushing. If you use that system you automatically reduce your use by 40% because you recycled 40% now that is a significant. Reduction across the United States and it's a very simple very inexpensive process. You see now you can't do that in the idea is to our obvious. No. No, but but there are you know, there are Technologies but we have to think differently in Florida for example is because they can't dump the water from the sewage treatment plant in the Gulf of Mexico or in the ocean the EPA won't commit him to do that down there the water from all the sewage treatment plants goes to golf courses and they signed contracts. In fact, you can't build anymore in the community until you find a place for the water to go and they signed contract except so much water. And in fact, I was just there this week playing golf and it was very wet because we got some rain that night and still they had except the other water. So it was kind of over watered at that time and everything. Well that's a different attitudes different mental attitudes was is okay. Well, we have more listeners with questions about freshwater. Hi, you're on the air Jill resilient is listening. (00:19:59) Hi. I have a simple practical suggestion. If everyone listening to this broadcast would flush their toilet one less time of day that would conserve. Four gallons of fresh water every year. That's all (00:20:09) I am from Kansas and in the late 1950s, we had a drought where I was in Emporia Kansas to the degree that we only had a week water supply left and they asked us to reduce the amount of times you flush the stool at that time. They were saying flush only after solids and and that sort of thing take a bath in two inches of water turn the water on and shower then shut it off and soak down a turn-on to rinse off and everything and those are habits many of which we've carried to this day. We have our own septic tank and we have our own septic tank in a place where the ground doesn't percolate all that well and if we aren't careful you have to pump the darn thing out anyway, and it teaches you excellent practices and it would be incredible the amount of water you can say, well that's what happened California where they asked people to do that than they did it. So well that they almost bankrupt the the water supply system. Those suggestions are beautiful suggestions and they're very He happens to change. We are more telephone lines open again in the Twin Cities area 2276 thousand the number if you would like to chat about fresh water with Jill resilient 2276 thousand in the Twin Cities elsewhere within the state of Minnesota. Our toll-free number is 1-800-695-1418 hundred six, five two nine seven zero zero, here's another listener with a question. Go ahead please. (00:21:33) Yes, I live in st. Louis Park. And first of all, I'd like to say thank you very much for bringing up the situation of the gray water. And I think it's something that we could use right here in Minnesota also since Louis and st. Louis Park, we have the real eat our dump situations. I was wondering what you what you know about the status on that and I was wondering if the what the city Me was exactly true that the site what couldn't be any worse and reason they told me this was because they were dumping Road tar and other types of fill in there (00:22:23) the situation he's talking about in St. Louis Park was at the rally car plant where tar and Chris old was dumped in a low spot, which was a marshy damn spot and over the years 20 30 50 years percolated down into which the gabbro. How come I just went blank on the aquifer that is used by well, it'll come to me in a minute. It was the gabbro and the will go on but the problem of course is it's like, oh, you know any kind of oil base, it doesn't mix with Water floats right on top it got down into the into the aquifer the water supply and is now dissipating and every time it gets to a well then the then the city finds traces of creosote in the water than they have to shut down that well and as long as the wells sea water underground moves so slowly under normal circumstances that any kind of pressure will affect its flow and when you have four or five high pressure pumps pumping water up, they create an underground current and tend to draw that krita sold to the next Wells every time you shut one down. Then you just increase the current going to next one. So it's slowly moving from Well to Well do well and they're trying to come up with technological ways to to stop that and one technique they're talking about using is to put in a massive well to pump water out when the water comes out treat it for the creosote and then use it for something else and as a result create a reverse. Current so that the water from the creosote comes to this particular well that they're pumping out but it's going to be a very expensive expensive process and it's being funded on the super fun. And yes, it's critical because we don't have the biological technology yet to clean up contaminants in groundwater. We're working on it. We have a piece of research out of the great freshwater biological Institute that looks like it's going to work to clean up pcps pentachlorophenol, which is the contaminant in the northern part of st. Paul and minute and Minneapolis from the pole company bellpull company that the the ground contaminated ground and everything and they're developed. They developed a bacteria that looks like it's going to break down those pentachlorophenol 's but it's that Technologies is a little ways away yet. I want to get back to some more listeners, but this also might be good point to ask you about where the ground water comes from and how the supply is replenished groundwater comes from two ways. One is either from percolation down from above the (00:25:06) On (00:25:07) or some of it like in the Ogallala was placed there back in the Ice Age. That's what the kind we call glacial water and that stays forever, you know, once that's once that's pumped out. You got to have another Ice Age to replace it. And so what you hope is that your water is water that is recharged. The the aquifer underneath the Twin Cities starts up north of Anoka up in the San plane up there and it just kind of a big bowl and it pledged down through but it takes about 20 years to move across the across the length of it. So it's a very slow recharge the good news. If you have a quick recharge as that you recharge your water very rapidly. The bad news is the quicker it recharges the easier it is to contaminate and that's one of the problems we have now in what they call the Bonanza Valley in Minnesota, which is from Wilmer to Morris that good sandy sandy soil where they have higher education and high Crop Production. They're now finding nitrous. Nitrates and nitrogen 90 feet down in their Wells they're finding Organics, which are pesticides and herbicides as low as 80 and 90 feet in their Wells because of the quick recharge. And so now the Water Supplies alright used for irrigation, but now they've used their they've lost their Drinking Water Supplies. So well as 27 past the are more listeners are waiting with questions. We'll go to our next caller. Hi, you're on the air. Hello. (00:26:32) I want to thank mr. Resilience for his very good work and thank you for the program. The question is in our area. There are many many homes that have been built very near lakes and over the years the Lakes have risen. And so now that many of these homes are have water in the basement or they're flooded a little bit and the solution that's being offered is to pipe the extra water down to the river as opposed to, you know, moving homes or are buying people. Maybe what the solution would mr. Resilient offer. Thank you. (00:27:13) Well that you see your correct are only two solutions one is you either move the water out faster than it comes in by pumping it out and you know increasing the flow of the lake or lowering the lake by taking the damn out or whatever. It is that's holding the water and moving it out or you move the homes, and those are the really the only two solutions you have because what happened was during a low water period from the 30s on we allowed by either by not knowing any better or bye-bye. Not paying attention. I suppose inattentiveness. We allowed people to build in the high water plane. Now a high water level the high water plane is the high water plane because that means in when there's high water it's going to be there and it's naive to assume this never going to be high again. It's a little like buying land cheap on Mount st. Helen and saying well, you know, maybe I'll live through it. Well then maybe you will and maybe you won't and we allowed that to occur. And now we have to ask the question. What do we do about those homes most most of it was done by out of ignorance. But you know that kind of becomes the point afterwards and the real decision is what should take precedence should the water supply in that Lake take precedent or should we just write the home off and move it out or move it back up on the hill and go back to places where probably it'd be more appropriate to have homes. I get very concerned whenever we say well we'll start lowering the lake because once you start Changing the natural configuration of the lake you start making something artificial and once you start making something artificial, then you have to manage it forever and that becomes very complicated and very expensive. It's almost twelve Thirty Joe resilient is in the Studio's today president of the freshwater foundation and we have some more open telephone lines. Once again in the Twin Cities area 2276 thousand if you have a question, our toll-free line is 1-800-695-1418 calls rather quickly. And now we have some more lines available. Here's another caller. Go ahead please you're on the air. (00:29:24) Yes. I'd like to inquire about the use of the toilets, which I can't remember the name of know it's they're Swedish and we have one in st. Paul in the Girl Scout building uses no water at all. (00:29:34) That's correct. Then these are have become quite popular around lakes in northern Minnesota and they ought to become quite popular. They're very efficient, especially for a smaller size family or small used area. And it's not something you can use with the IDS Tower obviously, but all they are is a natural compost that is more efficient than the old Outhouse build a house worked on the same principle. You let it sit there long enough and any any solid will decompose this use back to logical action pipes off the gases and worked quite efficiently. It's especially good idea in Minnesota up in the northern part with the Lakes because with the Sandy areas and with the rock areas, you know, that's about the worst place in the world to have a septic tank but there really aren't any other Alternatives you can't afford to run sewage treatment systems all the way out to a lake out in the middle of Never Never Land. So they make a marvelous alternative been talking a lot about groundwater supplies, which Supply Wells too many communities. But how about the Twin Cities area is our water supply in the Twin Cities area vulnerable since we can't get it from Just One Source in the city. Absolutely. There are two things that can make Our water supply of the Twin Cities vulnerable one is drouth which occurred in the 70s when the question was raised will it be necessary to increase the water flow in the Mississippi by drawing down off of the the corps of engineer impoundments like Leech Lake in the northern part of the state and there was some suggestion that that might have to occur people in northern part of the state were very upset and said you can't lower our Lakes because out of my well, then the question got asked locally just recently what responsibility do we have for maintaining a water level in the Mississippi River for bars traffic down below and I think it's all a gray issue that hasn't been addressed the second real potential for can for problem with the Twin City Water Supplies. Twin Cities plural is contamination. And if you'll remember last February, there was a spill of a 50 gallon drum of I was going to say cyanide but I think that's what it was and I think so just above the intake valve of the Mississippi River and it was interesting because the the the report in the paper was on the first page of Part B of the local paper that said there was a spill but the Department of Health said that it dissipated in everything was okay and I raised the question in the conference, what would have happened if that had not occurred? You know that was just tossed the coin whether it was okay or not and the ma'am wraith wrong. Dr. Ron from the Department of Health said that he was up all night monitoring that and was asked by a local television station. What would you have done if it hadn't disappeared? And he said I guess we would have blown the sirens. He said are you kidding? He said you do it for a tornado you do it for a flood for any other fire for any other disaster and at two o'clock in the morning people get them going to drink of water and it was you know, it was that close because we have no other alternative. I'm a strong proponent of weed. Get the idea of looking at the Water Supplies of the peripheral communities around the Twin Cities who are using groundwater and providing a backup system for them with the Mississippi River and providing them the design them as a backup system for Minneapolis st. Paul as a backup system. So we have and Alternate system and I think that's a popular idea. And now we've had enough small communities Trucking in water lately like asked off because they lost their water supply. You're not going to truck st. Paul and Minneapolis and it's time that they begin to look at at a backup system. 26 minutes before one o'clock. Here's another listener with the question. Hi. Where are you calling from (00:33:26) from Duluth, Minnesota. What's your question? And well, I'm a real. A lot about people wanting to take water from Minnesota down to the southwestern part of the United States because for us and Duluth, we live our whole livelihood is based on this on Lake Superior. And if the level of the water drops considerably our commercial are commercialism is completely fouled up and I just want to know what does what are the chances Joe thinks of people taking the water away from here (00:33:59) two things that you need to I would like to point out in regard to that. First of all people now are coming up with the concept of inter-basin transfer as a new wonderful idea the first plan to take water from Lake Superior piped to the Mississippi River haul it all the way down run a channel across Arkansas and provide water for West Texas. That first plan was designed by Huey P long which shows you what a good idea. That was you see and and it hasn't been it hasn't been improved any since then. That's the good news, I guess. The bad news is or something we need to keep in mind is that just a year ago this last winter a court case occurred in the southwest where the Supreme Court of the Southwest ruled that the city of El Paso Texas could go into New Mexico against the wishes of the state of New Mexico state that didn't have any water under way but to go north into New Mexico and drill 316 Wells to provide water for the city of El Paso because they said quote the needs of people take precedent over ownership. Now that that determination has being appealed and it's being re-evaluated. So it's still up in the air as far as the courts are concerned but it is an incredible precedent when you think about it because we all of the water laws and management in the United States are based upon State ownership and all of a sudden they're asking the question whether State ownership takes precedent over. Need and that then puts Lake Superior up for grabs. There's another important thing to keep in mind Lake Superior that as our caller knows full. Well as a people look at it and say well look at all that water and wouldn't that be wonderful but a six-inch fluctuation in water in the Great Lakes will affect bar or barge traffic because they're loaded dependent upon how much water there is in the channels going through and so it could have an instantaneous impact any lowering of lakes as instantaneous impact on the economy of the Great Lakes. Now you add to that one other interesting point. I mentioned that the Michigan groundwater is contaminated and they're now converting over to the Great Lakes. So I did a computation said let's assume that Michigan is not unique that all of the surrounding states and Canadian provinces eventually would want to use the Great Lakes if you multiply that times 2,000 gallons per day per man woman and child which is the amount that we use in the United States the yearly consumption. A hundred-mile radius of the Great Lakes is greater than all the water contained in Lake Erie. So then you ask the question how much water is left to be transferring around the United States to do things inter-basin transfer is not the solution really think the solution is a we have to regionally in the United States determine what things can our Region's the stain and function within not as it's not on a state basis, but on a regional basis, the Red River Valley is doing that right now. They're putting together an International Coalition to try to determine how the three states and the province in the Red River Valley can live together without flooding each other out and they're determining Regional priorities for water use and water management. And I think that's really the way to go. Telephone lines are open once again in the Twin Cities 2276 thousand 2276 thousand. If you have a question about Water Resource Management for Jill resilient and our toll-free line used by the caller from Duluth moment ago. 1-800-662-2386 Joel. What are the people in the Sunbelt going to do the population is increasing the industrial capacity is increasing but they have always been short of water there. It's unrealistic to assume that the people aren't going to go to the Sunbelt because that's apparently is a nice place a comfortable place to live put they're going to have to do is sustain those people with low water technology. A lot of the high-tech for example isn't a high water use technology. One thing they're not going to be able to do is agriculture because agriculture is the one is one industry that requires the most water and already the state of New Mexico is buying up Farms any farm that comes up for sale in the They didn't Mexico is automatically purchased by the state so that they can retain the water rights to use to provide for the people and I think that's probably a sensible solution. I don't know that the state needs to buy the land except that you have to you know, you have to take it out of production, but it's sensible to say if their product their their Commodities going to be people then that's what they will determine will be their number one commodity and that's what they'll do with. If you're going to have an industry that requires large uses of water then obviously you're going to have to go to the Great Lakes area is the and and have those there I don't think there's any questions about Minnesota, Iowa and Illinois oughta grow corn. We can grow better corn than any place in the United States without irrigation. And if Kansas and Oklahoma are going to be out of the Corn business whether you're 2010 somebody else gonna have to pick it up you see in so I think that's the kind of adjustment that will probably occur. We're listeners on the line with questions now for Jill resilient. Hi, you're on the air. (00:39:13) Hello. I've been listening to his great interest and One of the biggest waste of water as I see it is for Serge, and I'm wondering if you have overall could tell us a little bit about other possible uses for the ordinary sewer systems that are now functioning for which all people have to use but isn't there a better way than wasting all this pure water on disposal of human waste. (00:39:38) The flushing toilet stool is probably the poorest piece of technology ever created by modern society. It does what it does, but it does it in the most inefficient manner. It takes solid material that's in its easiest but condition to manage breaks it down into a suspension in a liquid state that makes it impossible to manage distributes it with vast volumes of water to some place and then we have to find some way to make it a solid again so we can go back to managing just just because it's efficient to do it, but we're not going to redo all of the cities in the United States in the next 10 or 15 minutes. So what we really need to talk about is how can we use that water a second time around and the science is developing on that. There are two parts one of course is attitudinal and the other scientific when they first suggested that they use water on golf courses in Arizona people said no because it already Our shoes when I know that's you know, that's an old attitude from working on the farm that the really doesn't apply anymore when the state of Ohio a golf course the state of Ohio requested use water from the sewage treatment plant. The EPA said no, they couldn't use it because golfers put golf balls in their mouth. Now. I know the basic IQ of the modern golfer get all of being one myself, but I think they're they're educable, you know, I think we can train them not to but and even the absurdity of that when you think about it, when you think of the tons of chemicals and fertilizer we put on that golf course, we still put the golf ball no mouse. It's the same thing. You see. I've never seen a golfer putting a golf ball in his mouth. That's in a while. You're not there, you know, but then when they first came out with the ball washes, you don't need it. That's right, when they when they first met with snowmobile they used to light matches to see if there's gas in the tank. But you only do that once you make yourself better, there are Technologies now for cleaning the water and recycling it they're looking at ways to develop agricultural around the sewage treatment plants and everything so that you recycle it a second time the second Part of that system that is so bad is that cities were designed on the premise of I want what I want as far as water is concerned get rid of the rest of it. And so we have massive storm storm sewer system to get rid of all the water and then we pop it out of the ground and what we're going to have to do is develop holding tanks to hold some of that and recycle it and so recycling is really the solution to all of these problems and it's not it's not a complex thing. I'm happy to say that the freshwater Foundation is jut has just completed a negotiation with a venture capital company in New York and we'll be announcing or starting sometime this summer a three and a half million dollar for profit Corporation to enhance the research into new technology for waste treatment and we see that as a very need. Well the greatest Today a lot of listeners with questions waiting for Jill resilience. So we'll go on to our next caller. Hi, you're on the air. (00:42:44) Yes. Good morning. I'm curious about how often well should be tested a shallow. Well in an area where as in Charlie sand and are a number of septic tanks within a mile square area. Let's say (00:43:00) okay, there are two or three things. We need to keep in mind about testing verdict of all of you asked the Department of Health to test your water. They will test today for two things one is for coliform and the other is for nitrates. They used to always teach treat for coliform bacteria only and that is to determine if there's any contamination from from a septic tank or from any sewage water. Now they also test for nitrates you can get that test for somewhere between 25 and 50 bucks. And so, you know, you do that no more than you can stand and I would think that you ought to do that every four or five years if you have specially if you have a shell of what well but there's another real Insidious problem. Concerns me and that's the whole question of Organics. The problem of Health doesn't test for Organics and I'm talking about pesticides and insecticides in those those sort of toxins, which are now the leading problem developing and water that test cost about $600. We submit a request to the legislative Commission on Minnesota resources to try to develop a test. I call it a quick and dirty see if we can come up with a test for fifty dollars that the state of Minnesota could use to go around and do that type of monitoring. But if I had a shallow sand, well, I would at least every couple of years take a water sample. I think it'd be worth a fifty dollar investment to me to take that Department of Health to check for those to the other question is where is it located and have you heard of any other contamination around there? Keep in mind that your well is Not underneath your house. It's part of a of an aquifer that could spread miles and so the question is Third is your aquifer lie and under what and if there is other contamination around there. Then you ought to be checking. It don't assume that your well is okay just cause it always has been another color with a question. Hi, you're on the air. Hello. Who are you calling (00:44:52) for? Oh, yes. Yes. Thank you very much for your interesting program. My question is very simple and just a little one. Is there a difference in bottled spring water? (00:45:04) Yes, in fact I once heard someone talking about the fact that the water in Twin Cities is has less bacteria count than Perrier water. Well sure because Perrier water is natural untreated water which has natural bacteria in it and water in the Twin Cities by law is treated chemically to kill the bacteria. So sure it would have but it you know, it's got other things in a to I'm not sure, you know, there are different ways that that bottle water is generated. Some of it is distilled. So it's merely tap water that's been distilled and then bottle some of it is natural spring water. They say that but then has to have some treatment and so the some of it is just pumped up from Deep Wells like they like they use for the breweries and everything and then bottled and some of its treated question was asked one time. Well, how does the how do they get the charge in it? They had gas carbonation which makes the bubbles in it and everything. Okay. You think that the quality of bottled water is higher than that of? Water, oh sure because it's more expensive to of course sure. And so it's it's usually it's distilled to take the chemicals and the chemical taste and smell out of it or something like that or its deep well water that doesn't require that massive load of chlorination everything that we need using surface water for example, and so it I don't know this any safer. Hmm. There are places around the Twin Cities where you can go and get well water spring water at public facilities. Do you recommend a storing that water in glass containers or plastic containers? Sometimes plastic will tend to pick up a little bit of flavor. I've never found that and everything so it doesn't bother me at all. Okay. Alright 13 minutes before one will move on to another question. Hi, you're on the air. (00:46:50) Yes, sir. Your calculations on the expiry were very interesting because for you number of years the city of st. Paul has claimed its drawn its drinking water from Lake Phalen. However, your figures in Gates of the city of saying Falls Water Supply would last about three weeks from Lake Phalen. Could you clear up that question as to where the city of st. Paul truly gets its drinking water (00:47:13) from well City st. Paul as I understand it does get his water from Lake Phalen, but Lake Phalen gets its in the Watershed. That's the Mississippi Watershed that gets it from the streams around there filling Lake Phalen, so, Basically Lake Phalen has enough of a water flow into it as I understand it that they don't dry out any more than goal in it. And I do think that they have a backup so that if it did draw down because of the water going around it, it could be recharged through the Mississippi River so that it's really it's just a surface water pass through what it is. It's not a contained Basin another listener with a question about water. Go ahead please you're on the air. (00:47:54) Thank you. I have a couple of questions. I would like to know what is the difference between an Artesian well and a regular well, and then another question is the commercial spring water companies. Where do they get their water from but I think I was partially answered a while ago that it's distilled but do they take regular well water and then distill it and I find that when I put that Into my tea kettle then there's some residue left is that from the minerals? It sounds when I rented as if it might be sand in the bottom of the we (00:48:40) go. No, I'm sure that what you thought was sand is actually oxidation of calcium and it's probably well water and don't don't misconstrue what I say to assume that all bottled water is distilled. It's not some may distill some may get from well water if they use surface water then they usually have to distill it to clean the chemicals out and everything depends upon what other whatever system they use most of the local ones that I know of I think use deep well water. The first question was the difference between an Artesian well and a regular. Well, okay, what'd you do with the well as you put a put a pipe down until you hit an aquifer now that That aquifer is a big bed of water lying its water in Sandstone or something or sand down in the ground anything that will hold water and it's got tremendous pressure pushing on it and everything that because the ground ungulates up and down that water is at different depths. Even if it's one aquifer. It may be anywhere from 80 feet to some places that aquifer will come right out to the ground level and if it does and if there's enough pressure, it'll break a hole in the ground and the water comes out voila. You have an Artesian well, and that's all it is is that aquifer comes to the surface and the pressure is forcing the water out very interesting 10 minutes before one. Here's our next caller. Go ahead, (00:50:04) please. Yes. I'm calling from River Falls, Wisconsin. You were talking some few minutes ago about the problem of replenishing the water and the aquifers. It seems to me that the a good many years ago twenty or Thirty when the federal government was encouraging Farmers to drain their lowlands and Ditch that water off into the streams. They created several problems. It seems to me that first. They reduce the water that was going into the aquifers, which is the problem that you were discussing a minute ago. But also they speed it up the runoff in the spring and made worse the problems that we have with flooding so that now it seems we have a hundred year flood every few years and it and the third thing that I think would would occur if that if that situation were reversed would be that some of the Farmland that the government is now paying Farmers not to produce on would would be taken out of production. Would you like to comment on that? (00:51:13) Basically? What you said is true fact the one of the most intriguing theories I ever heard on the idea of flooding was posed by a Canadian who suggested we ought to have a dumping tax and he It simply put just because God saw fit to dump water on. You doesn't mean you don't have any responsibility for it. And so what we should do is establish a tax against the amount of water that runs off your specific piece of property and you have a high water in a little water tax or a high-flow original Floyd's tank. If you prefer to let it fall and run on the day that it falls and you pay the high tax If instead you want to damn or have a wetland or something and hold that water so that it runs off at a low period of time then you'd pay a low tax if you have enough of a storage tank like a wetland so you don't have any water running off. You don't have any tax and then you add so then it would be economic to keep water back on your property. Then you add to that. If you have enough of that you could also sell it to your neighbor for irrigation and all of a sudden you'd eliminate floods in the process, but everything that the gentleman said is absolutely correct sure imagine that tax idea would caused quite a Ruckus if it were with your get everybody's attention to it. Here's another listener with a question for Jill. Hi, you're on the (00:52:27) air. I'm calling from Rochester and soda and we have a country which over produces or at least can easily over produce grain yet. We use tremendous quantities of water for irrigating. What is the justification for this and what are the possibilities for restricting Water (00:52:48) Irrigation? Yeah, very simply the the reason that that occurs is because we also have a philosophy in the United States that we should have cheap food. And as I always say we really don't have cheap food. We just have a high federal budget deficit because what we do is we have to subsidize all the way and the reason for the high irrigation and high production is because in trying to keep the price of food down, we control the price of grain and keep it down and as the as the interest rate goes up then the farmer has to produce more grain in order to pay his interest rate because the price of the grain itself is fixed and the only alternative he has then is to produce more now the option is to say okay don't don't produce so much, but we'll let the price of the green go up so that you can afford and then if you let the price of grain go up so Price of food, and then that'll be a real disadvantage of to the poor and the other so it's you know, it's a it's a couple balls in the air that the interrelationship between food prices and water resources and is interesting is it's a very delicate one. I was talking to farming of the day who were just figuring out what it cost to plant his corn that year. And by the time he figured his chemicals and is fertilizer and his seed and everything. It was about two hundred dollars an acre to plant his corn now. That's not figuring his labor that's gasoline. And that's out of pocket cost $200. Now if he gets a hundred bushel to the acre and corns worth two dollars and 35 cents a bushel. The only makes 35 bucks you see so he's got at least make that and he's got to do better net. If he's going to make any return if it drops to a dollar ninety. He's in deep trouble trouble. All right five minutes before one we have time for two or three more calls. Go ahead, please you're next. (00:54:42) Pick a level. What's the best way to cut down the flush of the toilet considering that we've got all of this old Plumbing around? (00:54:54) I don't know that I can answer that very well. I know that a a brick in the toilet stool or or a bottle, you know full of are a plastic bottle will tend to minimize the amount or decrease the amount of water in the tank. And so that's but you're going to have to play with that because if you get that too shallow so that you don't flush the stool cleaning and you have to flush it twice. You probably haven't gained everything but you can play by by decreasing the volume of water in the tank until you get that comfortable part that makes a single flush acceptable and do it that way another listener with a question. Hi, you're on the air. (00:55:33) Yeah, when you've been talking about the efficiency and the new technologies needed for you know for water use it struck me that the most efficient water use in the world is not in the world but up in the spacecraft and the Russians had space stations that have been up there for six months for the assume. These astronauts have had to live on the same water more or less for a long period of time and wonder if any of that technology is applicable here on Earth if you're familiar with any of this. Oh, (00:56:06) yes, in fact a system like that was designed again out in Colorado up in the mountains, but the problem with it was the computer technology because it has to be 24-hour monitored by a computer to make sure that all systems are functioning and most people couldn't afford that sophisticated a computer system. Now that computer system is developing very quickly and very cheaply with all of the new technology and that's really The science of cleaning and maintaining the water is there it's the monitoring of it that needs to be refined. And I think it's a very valid alternative I fact. I think that's the greatest contribution that space program gave to us. It was the first time in history of mankind. The man was in a position where he couldn't say. Well, there's more where that came from. He took it with him. All right, we have time for another one. Hi, you're on the air. (00:56:56) Thank you. Is there any technical equipment available for purifying water? We're a Florida visitor and we get our water from the caloosahatchee river. It's so full of some kind of chemicals. The water department says we shouldn't even drink it and I say it's got chlorine in it real high concentrations. Is there something we could have the resident that we could put into our own water system to purify it. (00:57:22) Yes. There are different systems for chlorine. For example, you need I'm having a terrible time going blank. Charcoal charcoal filters will help take the chlorine out. But I want to caution you on that. We wrote a little pamphlet on that. And by the way, if you would ask the freshwater society and at the 2500 Shady Wood Road post office box 90 Navarre 55392, they could they could send you those pamphlet but we sent a pamphlet on we did a pamphlet on filters. And the thing we pointed out we're getting questions all the time people. Should I get a filter the thing to point out? Is that a filter does one thing only it filters. So the first question you have to ask is what's in there. Is it filterable and if so, what filter should I get don't buy a water filter put it on and expect it to be a Panacea because it can only do certain things. The first question always is what specifically is in my water not just what's in it jewelry just about out of time but I suspect that people may have additional questions may want to write for information and so on give us your address again. Okay, that's the freshwater society and that's the organization that membership. Group, but you can belong to to get information the freshwater Society 2500 Shady Wood Road. Hopefully Shady wood one word post office box 90 Navarre nav as in Victor nav, ar ar e Minnesota 55392. I want to take this opportunity to compliment you on your listeners. My those wonderful questions. Well, we have the greatest listeners. Absolutely. Obviously. Thank you Joe resilient for coming and visiting with us today. Jewel resilient is president of the freshwater Foundation just about down to the end of the hour now. Thanks to Dorothy Hanford for answering the telephones today Roger Kamal dusted off as Engineers hat and sat behind the controls again. Weekend is made possible by economics laboratory products and services for household institutional and Industrial Cleaning worldwide. This is Bob Potter. In the Twin Cities, there's a 40% chance of showers and thunderstorms today. Skies will be variably cloudy the height. In the Twin Cities, there's a 40% chance of showers and thunderstorms today. Skies will be variably cloudy the height.