(00:00:06) Outdoors Enthusiast Tim Neyland joins us today to answer some of your questions about backpacking camping canoeing and whatever other manner of summertime outdoor activities you fancy Tim works for the American Lung Association of Hennepin County, which is sponsoring a variety of tracks around the area the summer which will find out about more little bit later welcome. Tim always a pleasure to have you (00:00:30) thank you very much Bobby. This is one of my favorite hours of the Year. (00:00:34) Oh, very good. Very good. I will give out the phone numbers in just a moment. But I want to get your response first to a Wilderness Horror Story that cropped up in the news today fellow who's an Air Force sergeant from Minnesota died recently after eating water hemlock in the Hem has mountains of New Mexico. Apparently what happened is he was hiking along a stream with some companions when they found some plants that they thought were carrots. So the fellow who ultimately died Dwight all Rick and another are man at Kirtland Air Force Base in Albuquerque ate some of the plant and fell to the ground and convulsions about quarter of an hour later. All Rick went into cardiac arrest and died in the other fellow survived, right but that really that really shocks a person to hear (00:01:27) that that's an unusual story especially as it relates to a Wilderness type of activity that situation is quite common throughout the United States and has really nothing to do with Wilderness type travel. A lot of people know that carrots and Dill and things like that. They're edible and they have kind of a top on it that's recognizable and they kind of a tall plants and kind of Whimsy plants and things like that drooping plants and so any grow near water typically and so people will go out sometimes just to along Roadside were 10 that tends to be the place we can get the biggest variety of plants because they're kicked. The seeds are transported by vehicles and kicked into the wet drainage areas and stuff and Hemlock will grow in there amongst a lot of other things and poison him locks in the umbelliferae family. That's a highly toxic plant family. And what what happens is there's a right at the base of the plant where it comes up out of the ground is really a highly volatile substance in there that actually has a sweet taste but it's a very unforgiving taste at that and people should be extremely careful with that anything at all. Any umbelliferae family that looks like an umbrella or an humble. They should avoid entirely even if they're pretty darn sure what it is unless they're an expert at it unless they have a taster along that well, that's the way to hit like we mentioned but the idea is just being extremely careful and not trying to augment your your food sources in your own picnics and stuff and that's what people do in their own yards because it adds a little element of attraction to their to their picnic meals generally speaking probably a good idea not (00:02:52) to eat anything in Wild, isn't (00:02:54) it? I think that you look at that from Always I think it's interesting for people to know some things about the environment and learn about the value of Cattail on all of that. But there are certain limits to that. First of all any Wilderness or Wild Land travel or let's say a person that uses National Park back country or person that uses a designated Wilderness should rarely ever take anything out of the environment. Anyway, it should be left in touch and we should pass through it as a part of it but not a consumptive part of it or a consumer such of the out of doors and we should leave it there for you know, because it's kind of eroding any way through International concerns, you know, and so not having the users do that. So it's better not to take them there. If you happen to find a place you like to have a cattail salad and a few other things that you know after really doing some good reading and taking a good reputable course or something and you want to go out and eat some foods. That's not bad. You know, it's three hundred thousand species of foods and of plants in the world and most are edible. It's just unfortunate when a person gets the wrong one most are not quite that violent. I might add by the way and mushrooms. You can't taste any kind of a test for mushrooms or so on there's very little food value of them. So those Unless you're an expert that that's the other problem that happens, especially in the fall people will get the ammonite or something like that and then they'll ruin a perfectly good picnic and sometimes with very disastrous (00:04:05) results Tim Leland Our Guest today be taking your questions about camping and backpacking canoeing biking whatever 2276 thousand is the telephone number in Minneapolis. St. Paul. If you have a question for Tim 2276 thousand in the Minneapolis st. Paul area in other parts of Minnesota. The toll-free number is 1-800-695-1418 hundred six hundred 529700. And if you're listening in one of the surrounding states or in Ontario call us directly in the Twin Cities at area code 612 2276 thousand, (00:04:44) you know, Bob when we do this program using the wintertime when it's 20 degrees below zero that seems to be the most substantial time where people have a definite real quick interest to calling in when they Put up their car doors or the home doors ago their car and they really feel and relate to the whether this kind of weather many times. We'll kind of suck people into kind of a law all about safety in a way and about concerns about their own children when they're out and they're themselves when they're out because a lot of people that take off and trypsin of The Boundary Waters and rivers and stuff. They really don't have a high level of knowledge, but they live in spite of their efforts. So the environment this time of year is pretty forgiving but there are times when you're around water when you're around steep rocks, or when your kids decide to go out things that they should or anybody it should decide you got there are things that they should be concerned about and overall of course is the fact that there's an incredible amount of enjoyment and the more comfortable we are we better prepared. We are the more apt we are to have an excellent experience from that people shouldn't have a miserable experience in the Out of Doors because it'll just turn them off to it and people that do are just not prepared. Well for it, they can't deal with the insects. They're worried about bears, you know and bears don't eat people. Otherwise, it's bears. Live in cities, you know where I can eat whenever they wanted to and but normally they may come after people's food stuffs or especially when other people are perceived in here, but if you're really cautious without any careful with that stuff, you're not going to have any problem. The biggest caution is time of year. I think people should be concerned about is water. A lot of people have a some kind of a negative feeling about wearing life jackets, but it's clear in my mind that any way that doesn't swim anybody. That's young anybody that's weakened. And any time the weather is bad. Those are men and Tory times at Jet Li are the river is bad for instance or the wager. Hi. Those are its men and Tory times for good life jackets that are sealed up. Well and a lot of times you'll find a lot of really competent outdoor Educators at teach for some very prestigious schools. No st. Croix Camp Outward Bound in a lot of other well-known programs that wear life jackets automatically because they just know it's an important element of that and it's not on Macho to do that. So to speak for some that are worried about that and it's a good safety type of thing and parents that certainly insist that their children do that without any question at all and just don't get Over your head the waters pretty high this year and there's and there's a lot of movement out there and so people should be quite concerned about that. So it's still the enjoyments. Hi. All right, sir. Let's take our first listen early as a (00:07:06) question about outdoor activities. Hi, you're on the air. Hello. My name is Gregory McDaniels from Minneapolis. And I recently that is this last winter was hiking through a park and I Came Upon a very hearty green oval type plant growing through the snow and to me it was a big surprise and I haven't been able to find this plant in any of my books on the subject. I was wondering if you have heard of any such plans (00:07:45) nicer. When were you going up there again? (00:07:47) This was around January or February and it was in a Minneapolis Park Theater worth park. (00:07:53) You know, what I would do in that situation because It could be several even though you'd say it's pretty substantial plant without a doubt. It wanted an early start. I would talk to the naturalist at the Nature Center in associated with that Parker one really close and that's the way to get your identity because the Hennepin County Park Reserve System naturalist are great people and they really know their stuff. (00:08:11) We had an early kind of an early spring in martyr in February (00:08:15) this year that range Year. Yes indeed. He was (00:08:18) 227 6002 telephone number if you have questions about outdoor activities, and that's in the Twin Cities area outside the Metropolitan calling area one 865 29700. I always like to find out what is new and way of products and equipment for camping and canoeing and other sorts of things. Are there any particularly interesting products or where products you know clothing that people ought to know about this summer (00:08:53) right? Sure. We talked some about it in the winter, but it has just as much benefit for the summer because when people are prepared to go out overnight, you always want to prepare for the temperatures dropping somewhat cool or the you know, when a thunderstorm will go through will drop the temperatures of a person's wet. They can be pretty susceptible some some heavy coldness. In fact, I'll get back to that in just a second. But some friends of mine that are going to be that are working with me very closely on various programs were coming down a river not too long ago and they found a bunch of people standing out kind of at the mercy of the current in this little log Island type of thing in the middle of a fast-moving River and they were getting pretty cold and pretty hypothermic even though it was a really relatively early time of the year. So it is We were able to deal with it and help to people off and rescue them. Okay, and then people went on about their way after everything was over with and it worked out fine. But in some cases when you don't have someone like that coming by it's especially you know, it's especially important that we were concerned about the kind of clothing we have and again things like polypropylene, which is the water ski rope, you know that we have in a little in now formed an underwear that day Mart has something very similar to that and leaf underwear lifa. You see that advertised a lot that is just a real thin layer of long underwear next your skin that has very little heat retention capacity because it's not very thick but it in effect it retain. It keeps our body almost dry all the time because it absorbs very very small quantities of water less than maybe 2% And so most of its purged out so you always have a dry layer right next to you. So when you're around cold water or it's a little bit brisk that's an ideal type of thing to to use. Another thing that people are doing a lot now to augment the warmth that are sleeping bag and I have very little trouble sleeping warm in the summer. Time more trouble sleeping cool in the summertime and trying to get a good combination of keeping the mosquitoes away and not having too much bag over me even with a real lightweight bag, but if someone does sleep a little bit cooler, they might try a vapor barrier, which is just an unbreathable membrane, like urethane coated nylon or non breathable nylon, sealed up fairly well and you know sewn together and you slip it right down inside of your bag not over the top of your bag but inside of your bag and then you kind of have a drawstring and you pull it up to your neck, you know, you have to tighten down. So, you know, it's there all night, but seal it up well and our bodies will give off a certain amount of heat, of course in moisture which in turn when it reaches a certain level of signal the body to shut down more excessive water loss. And so it will help to give a person 10 to 15 percent of increase in warmth in that situation, which is a relatively inexpensive fix. If on the other hand you decide to cover your sleeping bag with the same type of a thing or with a plastic bag and I know a lot of people out there have done that they've put a plastic bag over the bottom of their sleeping bag to keep it dry or whatever it is and Out of body moisture will just end up in that bag. So whether you're camping in the wilderness or in a state park or whatever make sure your bag can breathe the only time it ever covered with a plastic bag is if you had this described Vapor Barrier on on the inside, so your body moisture doesn't get into the insulating material the bag. (00:11:50) So 16 minutes past 12:00 noon. Let's take another listener question for Tim. Go ahead, please. Hello there. I first want to say how much I appreciate the programming. I would like to ask some questions about the legality of relocating certain types of lady slippers. Is it legal to move any type of Lady Slipper in the state? (00:12:13) Well, I think you're really asking the wrong person in that particular situation because I don't know what all the legal ramifications are of something specifically that you're talking about now, but the DNR the Department of Natural Resources, of course in St. Paul or probably even your nearest State Park the staff there at the State Forest would be and possibly even the Nature Center people could give you an idea and specifically answer your question. (00:12:36) All right. I know that Wilderness activities are becoming more and more popular every year almost to the point where Wilderness is showing some of the signs of the human visitors that people go to try to avoid you have any suggestions on how to minimize a person's impact on the Wilderness. (00:12:56) Yeah. I think that's a that of course is a question that's close to my heart. I really am. I spent a lot of time dealing with this whole area of impact. In fact, most of programming that I work with through the University extension and through the American Lung programs here in another places around the country a lot of its based on the Act in the field that is that really respects a minimum impact philosophy, you know over the years, you know, Bob if I can just get into this little bit that over the years people have had kind of a conquering attitude about the Wilderness and unfortunately some of that still exists today that you've got to go out and we have to convert the environment we go out and we beat and Challenge and we conquer things and in effect. We don't anybody would like to conquer something my challenge would be and I'm not serious about this folks, but my challenge would be to go stand in the golf course with a metal rod pointed upward during a lightning storm and ask how effective it is to challenge the environment. It's highly unforgiving to do that people that are successful. I think people that can enjoy the outdoors and people that they can gain an appreciation for it learn to understand it rather the weather is bad or the weather's good. It's just doing whether things it's just doing environment things and they adapt and and can blend with that particular thing. I'll today to directly address your question. Our use of wild lands is going up, you know, just exponentially people are going out. (00:14:13) A (00:14:13) lot and a lot of people are going out with great intentions because we find a lot of people especially that are in their late 30s and 40s and 50s are looking at other Alternatives in our lives anymore against you know to augment their working because we know from just a wellness standpoint how important it is to get diversion in our lives and just because we have an interest in the Out of Doors doesn't mean we really understand how to get out into them and a lot of people buy stuff with the knowledge that they were this stuff will help take care of but they in effect have no understanding of how to use it or anything else in order to stay really comfortable. Another equally important part of that is course of how we impact the environment that we're using and how we impact other users. And so we have two kinds of impact to address specifically answer your question the environmental impact on the social impact and we know what it's like when a motorcycle gang pulls up next to it and State Park a possibly it tends to erode our experience just a little bit less pretty dramatic. We won't find that but people are bring radios or have Frisbee games and Loud boisterous activities even songfest that may be okay for them. The good for them aren't quite the experience. We're looking for especially the farther and more distant. We get from a Trailhead or from a canoe porridge or from a canoe put in point or something like that. So we should be very concerned about our impact on other people another element associated with that is color of clothing and Equipment, which is an emotional thing because a lot of people worried about if I don't have bright stuff I can survive you or I might not be able to survive if something of an emergency comes up, but I don't want my clothing to be responsible for my survival in a situation. I would rather have it myself be myself and I would carry bright material or something like that. Otherwise we recommend as people replace their packs and their tarps and their tents to try to buy Earth Tone colors, you know greens and Browns and things that will tend to blend and instead of being just right out in the point somewhere and just glowing with a red tent, you know on The Boundary Waters or along a river or something one that's green will still be seen by people when they get a little bit close to it, but not quite as far away, so Impacting their experience for such a long period of time it's just like if you're walking down a trail and you see someone way up there someplace and they've got a bright red pack on you thinking that fly him out here. It's kind of solitude null' Angie wall or something else out here to now and that may not be bad because a lot of people don't like interaction. But some people do like to go out with her small group and and kind of think that they're they've worked hard to get into this particular area and they'd kind of like to be the only ones in there and if they don't see that person, there's no impact with that ecologically, of course carrying out all of our our food stuffs that we don't burn carrying. All those out I think is really important and you know and looking around and cleaning up other campsites twist ties. You can always find you can always find a good chair of aluminum foil. You can't we fix it to come back with a roll of foil like you'd buy it in a store, but you can buy find about that much and old fire pits it seems and so cleaning up other people's messes helps a lot too. And that is one area that it's had a big impact over the years, especially in places like The Boundary Waters and along the riverways and places like that. Is the litter aspect of it, but also people peel birch bark trees and and then because I think it's kind of neat to go around it and pull the birch bark from the tree and yet even though that doesn't destroy the tree unless you go right down to the cambium layer and pull all the bark off and that would be of course called girdling. It still is very unsightly, you know, they were there trees were raised to have their there, you know to be fairly initial listen to be, you know to have all the white bark on them people put nails in trees and put line and leave it up and trees for other people to use later on people have even left food out there. It's kind of tragic to find a half-open can in some Wilderness and find some dead animal stuck in there because it wanted to get some blast, you know remnants of beans out of it and couldn't back out or something like that or to find someone's garbage pit that they buried instead of pulling the stuff out and that type of thing being careful with sanitation's also important. Make sure you go well away from water and don't wash in water. That's another thing people do even with biodegradable soaps and biodegradable is not biodegradable in water like that. It takes a long time for it to occur. It's better to go at least a hundred feet away from water. No matter if we're way out in the wilderness or in close to somewhere else and then wash at least a hundred feet away and rinse and fairly level pacing like that will let that stuff roll into the ground. So (00:18:26) alright 23 past noon Tim Neyland is with us and we have some telephone lines open in the Minneapolis st. Paul area. The number is two two seven six thousand 2276 thousand if you have some specific questions about camping techniques or equipment or whatever in other parts of Minnesota, the toll-free number is 1-800-695-1418 States or in Canada call us directly in the Twin Cities at area code 612 2276 thousand. Let's chat for a minute about food diet and nutrition on the camp Trail. Okay, how much stuff do you need to bring with you? And what sorts of things should they be? (00:19:07) All right. Number one is plenty of water outside like to make because water is much more critical and food. Incidentally our question inaudible Foods earlier people can live for weeks without food. So it's not a high priority item carrying plenty of it for enjoyment is really important. So have plenty of water and replace at least two quarts of water that you drink a day and unreal hot weather like we have now people that are canoeing or backpacking or out in any kind of a strange activity will replace a gallon of water. They'll need to (00:19:33) why carry water when most likely you'll be very close on (00:19:37) water. That's another excellent question brings up a whole new set of things and we can't lose track of this whole area of the quote food questions, but first of all, if you're unsure of the source of the water and there is no see you get into some real real areas here where people say, well I've always had never had any problem at all, but there's a condition it's very common now and there has been for years is just more rapid now called Giardia and even if it wasn't Giardia that we're worried about so much anymore. It's just that water that's not taken from a city environment in a generally a very Western Country. You can almost consider it. We need it. Now. I've drank a lot of water out of lakes and out of rivers and things like that and I haven't gotten sick of even done in the Philippines where I have gotten sick and things like that, you know some diarrhea or whatever the case is, but Giardia now is becoming more and more rampant. And I know if people in Alaska the Olympic Peninsula in Washington state in the High Sierras here in The Boundary Waters near Isle Royale and almost anywhere you want to go the Appalachian Trail is that we find people are careless about their bathroom habits in the wilderness and it's not just a wild land users a lot of people that drive around campers and take vacations in the mountains because of the beauty of it now back their campers up to a stream and they'll dump their toilet waste right into the streams like that people used to blame the beaver for that. So heck of a deal with heck of a rat for the beavers and what they found in Colorado is the beaver is relatively Giardia free in the spring and is contaminated and fall because of Terrace that dump their waste and Backpackers at dump their waste into the waters. (00:21:09) Are you saying it's not safe to drink the water out of the BWC a for (00:21:12) example I can I'll say I think that I in any program that I have in students and participants of programs. I have I recommend that you purify any unknown source of water including the Boundary Waters my wife and son and I had an excellent trip off the sub L last weekend and we drink some of the water up there. Now that's our own choice till now to purify water you do it chemically with hallows own even with some iodine mixtures. You can find or some other kinds of types of things that are available to you now and use a chemical purifier or use a boiling purifier and boiling is a most predictable in the best one that we have and you boil water to purify it for 1 minute plus 1 minute for every thousand feet of elevation. Now if you're on a river versus a versus, okay, so at 3,000 feet, obviously we boil it a rolling ball for four minutes and The Boundary Waters nothing's higher than 2,000 basically so good three-minute rule Boyle would be enough in The Boundary Waters, but that's a real issue Bob is that that that the potential water Giardia also is more apt to be received from a river that's fast-moving and clean running because the river will not purify itself. It's To have an underground filtering system to do that because Giardia spores if they are whatever it is, we'll keep loose and keep tumbling through the water. Whereas in a lake do you might tend to set a little bit more? (00:22:21) Maybe we'll get back to that food and diet question a bit but we do have some callers on the line that we'd like to help. So let's take our next listener. Go ahead, please. Hello. I'm calling from South Minneapolis. And I was wondering how old think children should be before he bring them into the Boundary Waters. And if you have any special recommendations for young children when you take them like canoeing, (00:22:42) okay, I think that it's up to the parents. How old the child is the one thing that the one thing that if you've got someone that's a screamer more or less. It does a lot of crying then it's going to impact other people, but if you can be really sensitive to that child and making sure they're protected from the Sun that they're dressed. Well not using yourself as a guide because people are paddling and raising a lender building a lot of heat and they're really sweaty or they figured well, I've had 20 minutes of sun or three hours of Sun and I'm doing fine, but the baby hasn't had that kind of a kind of exposure so we have to monitor them and their Of activity and make sure they're protected and make sure that they're not crying a disturbing other people and then taking care of the waste products of a baby and packaging it all out. Get some good Ziploc bags and plastic bags and carry everything out. There is nothing to gradable and nothing should be buried in that particular situation human waste can typically could be buried in a hole 6 to 8 or 10 or 12 inches and toilet paper can be stuffed in there and buried to and with three or four inches of dirt on top of it but not Pampers or diapers or anything like that and that is responsibility. I had I've had my son he was cross country skiing with me one time when he was before he was a year old. He got real close to me too because kind of cold in the Cascades and stuff but we just made sure it was dressed really well and he's been camping for a long time now and some people will find that just a few months is enough and they'll start being more little bit more responsive though when they're you know, four and five and six and eight and 12 and 13. They can start carrying more and that kind of thing. So it's kind of up to the parents (00:24:10) I think. All right 29 minutes past noon, Tim Neal. As with us, let's take another listener. Go ahead, please. Yes. I'm calling from the university area of Minneapolis. And you made a comment some time ago concerning people not wanting to go camping and then have a motorcycle gang come in next to him. And I don't like the fact that you're implying that everybody rides a motorcycle. It's not going to be somebody you want to camp next to a lot of us that go out camping with motorcycles and had a lot of people say they were the best people have come in there (00:24:42) and say you're absolutely right. I didn't I didn't mean this is always a danger in anything you saved Because unless you clarified enough, but I've certainly a lot of friends have been involved with that and I have met some excellent campers and that particular situation. So you're absolutely right. I'm sorry. I mentioned it that way. The only point I was trying to make was socially if you do get a group of people that come in that have very little disregard that have no regard all for other people's feelings that can really ruin a person's experience quickly and we don't want to be at fault doing that. No matter if we're on motorcycles bicycles of we had a laugh. A loud stereo, if we just like the hoop and holler around all night or whatever it is. We all need to kind of police around activities, but no, I wouldn't ever indicate that that was true at all for motorcycles in general. (00:25:24) We'll move on to our next listener with a question for Tim Neyland. Hi. Go ahead, please. I'm calling from Minneapolis and I'm planning a bike trip through Wisconsin starting next week, and I was wondering what kinds of foods to pack that are not commercial backpacking so-called Foods (00:25:43) one of the nicest things about bike touring versus Wilderness type touring is the fact that you can very easily stopped and replenish your food along the way and that's what most bicyclers do I think our bicycle is do in many cases is resupply as they go along. It's really tough for instance to pass the Dairy Queen or someplace like that is you're on your way bicycles tend to pull into places where ice cream ever readily available. But if you are going to pack some food stopping and just a grocery store is a good place or a co-op. Very excellent place to get food for either bicycling or for Wilderness type touring or you can even get into a mountaineering chop of one kind and there's a lot of good ones exist. We're really have great ones here in the Twin Cities area and throughout the state where you can buy the freeze-dried. But but like you had mentioned, you know, the instead of getting the prepackaged stuff that way just complete meals that are real lightweight from grocery stores or one of the best places to go to get that type of thing and then find other places to Target other big cities and do the same thing after two or three days if you're going to be kind of remote and in fill up again and go on from there so you can keep your loads really light. Okay. (00:26:47) Thank you for calling 29 minutes before one Tim Neyland is with us and we do still have some open phone lines at 2276 thousand 2276 thousand in the Minneapolis st. Paul area. Let's chat a little bit about the diet and nutrition aspect of wilderness camping. Then some of the things that people would want to take along and what's good for him. (00:27:25) Right? I think that well one thing we as I mentioned the waters really important in carrying a couple poly bottles of water with you at least quarter liter size bottles per person and then as far as food is concerned try to make sure that you don't change a diet to radically or if you're going to depend on something you've never had before try it at home before you go out and be a heck of a deal to find that you've got something generated by somebody named Montezuma or something like that and it had very little positive impact on your experience or something like tuna all the garbage, you know Zone my by somewhere and has no compatibility with you out there because of people don't eat. Well, they're not going to enjoy the experience very well at all. And so, you know some of that stuff try at home before you go out try to also not reduce your caloric intake that all you're going to have to increase your caloric intake and I would say by double if you're out doing any kind of a Newest activity if normally we 2500 calories. Maybe I maybe doubles too much, but at least half again as much I know on our winter Trek that we have in February through the Lung Association. We try to allow for somewhere between five and six thousand calories a day in summer backpacking we go at least four to five thousand calories a day per participant because we're working backpacking four five six miles a day or whatever. It is. It's not extreme at all, and people are carrying your own gear though, but we're out of doors all day were breathing cooler air. Typically than we are inside. We're living environment expending a lot of energy that way and so plan on that. We do a lot of art food buying it cooperatives again. We use grains and weed and various things like that breakfasts are can be things like oatmeal and even on layover days because a lot of times when we're backpacking or canoeing or whatever. We try to have one or two layover days involved with that where people don't have to worry about putting a pack on and going on again what we can do just some casual day exploring and some of those days pancakes are really good. If you don't like pancakes are not going to be good at all, but if you I can which most people do it works out. Okay lunches or Cheese's crackers. Salami if people are not vegetarians and certainly vegetarians can be accommodated very easily and very excellent Wilderness dishes peanut butter and jelly are really good and that stuff of course in The Boundary Waters your prepackaged out of any metal and glass containers into Polly bottles. And any of the stores like Midwest Mountaineering and REI Eastern Mountain Sports Burger Brothers, white guards and hit the list them all Eddie Bauer because I'm going to forget them all the time but those stores are all good ones to go into and by these little things and prepackaged them dinners can be spaghetti and meatballs people can have tacos. You can have students of all kinds some of them people make it home and put them in Boyle bags and then just cut the content the boil bag and drop it right in which is really a convenient way to do it. So you don't have to clean a lot of dishes that way so you kind of get your system's down for a while. I would recommend that people give it a try though. I'll go out for a weekend and see how it is and stay close to home and then continually build up if they're in if their interest is in that area. (00:30:11) So let's take some more listener questions for Tim Nealon. Hi, you're on the air. Yes, I sure wish I was camping rather than listen to the radio rather than working on my house. But then I wouldn't have heard you on the radio say I've got calling about sleeping bags. Okay, I have two boys just entering scouting and the we I'm kind of caught between a rock and a hard spot you they do mostly warm weather camping, but we do some cold weather camping too. I don't know what kind of sleeping bags together. (00:30:41) Okay. First of all, that's a question that can't be answered on year, but I will give you some you know, I get that question a lot while I've got this much as been what bag would you buy if you're going to do that and everybody's needs are a little bit different. There are a couple of key things you need to look at. I think though. First of all, don't try to mix your three-season bags with a winner bag winter camping in this situation is something that I hope that people really take off on and it's becoming more and more and more people are getting involved in every year. But what you do is take your summer or three seasons bagged one that you can use safe from April on through October. So and then just add another lightweight bag with that so that you get a combination of bags. So don't try to buy a winter bag that's going to work in a summertime because that'll just be too hot for anybody to work with concentrating that then if you're interest Grows by another back, I would also recommend for kids, especially where you might tend to get a bag that will if you get moisture in the bags your body heat and to body moisture and if you might tend to to not be quite as conscientious on taking care of it not to say your kids wouldn't be your Someone's Child wouldn't be but it might be better to stick with some of the synthetic fibers versus a a down material and you can buy some awfully good quality bags in the $60 range and over I would avoid bags that have ET designs on the inside and Pinocchio and little race cars and things like that on the inside of them because they're a flannel type of bag. The generally is not suited for any kind of real good Wilderness Travel a lot of people use those when they're doing State campground camping and things like that, but I would avoid that for anybody that's going to be doing some serious outdoor activity and your bag price is going to be 50 to 60 bucks in higher, maybe two and a half pound fiber fellows. That seems to be a pretty good weight for summer activities. When you're in a winter time we go up to five and a half to six pounds of a fiberfill and then we get into four pounds or so of down in some kind of a combined area. (00:32:36) You talking about some real money there. (00:32:38) Well 40. Well it is but you know, if you spend it if 5-pound bag and you spend $30 on it and stuff if parents ever get an opportunity to use something like that. They're going to find that it's going to be probably an adequate for what you want (00:32:52) more or less news with questions for Tim. Go ahead, please you're next. Hello. I'm calling from Walker and have question two questions one is about camping with Bears and the other is about kind of little Fireside breads things that you can make on the trip. And if you have any recipes that you like to share with us, and then the first questions about Bears we're going to be camping this weekend in the Chippewa forest. And even their you run into Bears. Yeah English Camp. What can you do to discourage that keep your food (00:33:25) away? Okay. Well not Bears again. It's you know, if you study Wilderness users and stuff that one of the things when they have a bear encounter, and I don't mean an attack or anything but a bear encounter because people don't get attacked by bears. Generally that people they remember that from their Wilderness experience. So it has a little positive experience for a lot of people I would tend to like to minimize that particular thing because only because it creates an element you don't need to deal with your food can be destroyed or your packaging gear sometimes can be destroyed if a bear that knows what's going on because they do especially, you know Bears get pretty talented at this to after a while when you go to an area where there have been a lot of instance with bears. The first thing I would do is I would check with a resort with a resort people the Outfitters in the area or I check with a Rangers in those areas and I would ask if they've had very many bear problems in the area and if they had I would make sure that my all of my My food including anything that I had later on it day and any during late in the evening or whatever. I wouldn't have a snack in my tent friend since I put it all in my pack and I would put it up in a tree about 25 feet. What I do is put a line between two trees by putting a rock and carefully throwing it over a Highline pulling it up and then throwing it over another tree that separated. So you get just kind of a line like almost a canoe Portage or canoe rest on a Portage or like a clothesline, you know, that's up around 30 feet or so. Then I throw another line over the middle and a hike that pack up and leave it there some people like it up about 7 feet which is bear mouth height how which is not quite enough to to have an impact on it. So get her way up there and you get the odor out and everything else and wrap it in a couple of plastic bags and it's a best thing that you can do for that to take care of the bear problems. As far as breads are concerned. And and also if you did wake up and hear someone snoring around someone's going to hear it if they're nervous especially just beat some pots together and the Bears really persistence back off and let the Bear get done and they'll go on because Bears really don't By the people in those people Corner him or unless they get between them and their young their cubs. That's an extremely dangerous situation there. As far as breads are concerned. There are some really good bread recipes out certainly a lot more in choice that I could give over the air and things like Logan bread the stuff in there that and if one area of backpack has ever been covered very adequately. It's the whole area of Breads and foods, and if you go into any one of the outfitting stores and any one of the mostly even a lot of the Viking Stars will have good recipe books that you can look at. So, (00:35:45) all right, good luck and we'll take our next listener with a question for Tim Neyland. Hi, you're on the air. I'd like to know what type of a tense you would buy for probably two to four people who want to count can't go out camping in The Boundary Waters now I heard some mention about a Dome Tent. (00:36:06) Okay, I don't think we mentioned a Dome Tent yet today. But the first one thing I would do is I'd make sure that it had a blending color that had earth-tone colors and then I would look at a tent that probably probably the minimum amount of money that a minimum amount of money that I would spend for a good tent would be in the neighborhood of four a two person tent unless you had a real unique sale would be probably a hundred and ten to hundred twenty dollars. And then the Dome Tent you're talking about now, there are some that look very good that cities are even thinking about moving into basically that even sell for over five and six hundred dollars North Face here designs and some of those companies Wilderness experience. They have some excellent domes. Well a lot of I mean I could list a lot of Manufacturers to that do and don't tend to really find I think one thing you want to be concerned about is the length of the tent. It may look real pretty but make sure it's big enough to take care of the number of people that you want in it and your gear or is you can have your gear located next to it and that type of thing Eureka the whole Eureka camping system. I think the Timberline tent for instance. They've got a two person that sells around a hundred and thirty and then a four person that sells for I don't know a hundred 1780 that's available in a lot of different Outlets Outlets including places. Like Dayton's even that is probably about the best bargain for the money that I've seen and I usually wouldn't recommend some particular brand over the year whatever but that is a high quality medium price thing. And then from there you can go up to some very superb quality tents and that's kind of the range that I would look into if you're going to do a lot of attending with just one other person. I would consider the two person tent first unless you're going to be out consistently with three or more people than I would go into possibly a four person tent or looking at to 2% tents (00:37:44) now just be a rip stop. Nylon (00:37:47) type. Yes, it would be a rip stop nylon type the floor would any of these would be probably or very similar to that. Anyway, all I'm would have a waterproof floor you would seal all the seams with a good competent seam sealer and every one of them almost without exception would have a detachable fly that you would put on over the top of it. I'm sorry. (00:38:05) Height of the tension that's (00:38:08) that's entirely up to you. Generally you should be able to sit up inside of a tent. You shouldn't have to worry about standing up or any kind of great activities, but at least be able to sit up or close to that in the center of the tent. (00:38:19) Okay. Another listener is waiting with a question for Tim Neyland. Hi, you're on the air. Hi. I'm calling from Richfield and I'd like to make a comment to you about the food products available for packing again backpacking hiking and camping and that type of thing. There's a relatively new company in Minnesota that offers complete meals in retort packs. It's not freeze dried. It needs to be just it's like a boil in a bag meal and it's a complete meat product meal and they're absolutely wonderful. They're not sold at retail. They have to be bought through distributor. All right. Thank you for the I'd love to be anybody who would like to talk to me. I'd like to you know, if they want to call me. It was my fine, (00:39:04) huh? Well, that's that's one those are always tough to deal with and I know that retort packaging is something to military has been using for years and it does have very promising. Thanks for the future. And so I wish you a lot of luck with your business and getting that out because if it's really a good quality food, it'll be great (00:39:20) 16 minutes before one o'clock. Tim Leland is here and we have another listener with a question. Go ahead please I am come from Golden Valley and I was wondering on sleeping bags. I got two types of bags have felt one and then the downfield 15109 is it best to sleep, you know on a sleeping situation in the wilderness to sleep was closed out of here or a for what you know, because I've had experience with them. I didn't sleep just my underwear stuff and it was better. For sleeping situation as wonder if there's any theory behind that did you sleep with clothes on door was closed after what? (00:39:56) Yeah. Well, no, I generally sleep with very little on even in the wintertime. And one of the reasons is you get your bag fluffed up really well. And then from there you you know, you should have a good Pat. I think even in the summertime to give you a little cushion from the ground and not compress the insulating value of your sleeping bag rather, it's Downer. It's synthetic of one type or another and then I would suggest you take your clothing and put it between your sleeping bag and the tent wall, especially if you're sleeping right next to the tent wall because the tent walls waterproofer few inches up to side and that allows them for your if your sleeping bag touches of waterproof surface, it'll retain some water moisture there and your bag will get wet. It's a really important area mot anyway rather to get whether or not each day and your situation. I think it's better to take your clothes off and start with very little on the problem. I have personally in the summertime is just that I sleep really warm. Sometimes I use my sleeping bag like a blanket, but you want to make darn sure you're conscientious. I Thank anyway about making sure that you have a minimum number of mosquitoes inside your shelter and spend a little bit of time in mosquito combat before you head to bed more lesser discourage him from hanging around inside the tent and make sure you cover up any holes that might be there any gaps in the mosquito netting and stuff. And so that you can sleep really comfortable. Some people will end up zipping their bags up in an unzipping it from the bottom and just kind of keep the middle part zipped over their body and that's also a pretty comfortable way. But rarely would I ever sleep in clothing even in a winter time? Because you don't you don't want to sleep in kolding it with you wet, you know, you got wet through perspiration during the day or anything like that at all. So I think generally the former asleep with very little on is preferable then at night time. You can always pull it in and put it on if you need to (00:41:32) 14 minutes before one we have time for more questions at to 276 thousand for those of you who live in the Minneapolis st. Paul area 2276 thousand haven't even will answer your questions in other parts of Minnesota one 865 29700. How do you stay dry when you're camping when it's raining outside? (00:41:55) Well, I think certainly people should always bring rain gear and it should generally We should strive to maybe get rain gear. There's a little better quality than a plastic sheet that a person would wear that cost very little unless you can be extremely careful and not rip it and so a good Poncho at a minimum which covers, you know, just like a poncho which covers most you or two-piece ring gear is even perfe preferable to that. Gore-Tex is a not a new material anymore and people are getting to know it quite well, it's quite expensive but cortex is a very very quality oriented rain gear when it's put together with a very good manufacturer and they seem tape to stick in a generally tape the seams by NCL on that way and that has the ability to breathe of course and while the same time repelling water, which is really a you know, people used to say 10 years ago that it was impossible have a breathable waterproof fabric, but in effect, they ended up doing it with a Teflon. Type of material and now I see some competitive things coming along like entrant and a couple of the other manufacturers and we'll have to see over the next three or four years. How much of that information is Splash where people are coming on and trying to take a less expensive process to to go at it. And how much of it is going to be really really, you know, substantial and impact of marketplace, but I really love to see any think I mentioned this before in the year that it's it's neat to see the companies like 3M with insulate for instance and do pain and some of the other companies with relatively large resources looking at this now because it can help to innovate and WL Gore and Associates with a and Associates with a Gore-Tex because now there's a big enough market in Outdoor Clothing. It's really good quality Outdoor Clothing to make it worth their while to get in and develop things like thinsulate and so antique and some of the other things that are being manufactured now fiberfill 2's polar guards and things like that that have been out for a certain period of time to but it's important if it does start raining put the stuff on slow down our It is (00:43:50) more listeners are waiting with questions. Take our next caller now. Go ahead please. Hi there. Hello, are you able to hear us? Okay, here we go. I have a hand warmer that I have used in front of my sleeping bag and I was wondering if you have any negative or positive response. What I've been doing is I put it inside a sock and put it in the bottom of the sleeping bag and then I have found it. I wear socks also because it still can get warm and it also has received a fuel burn one time on my (00:44:26) ankle. See I would avoid anything with any kind of chemical in it that could leak out and ruin your bag or cause a very volatile burning situation. And so you kind of answered one of the negative aspects of that what we do though in the wintertime is will take a hot water bottle and fill the air will take a water bottle just a regular plastic water bottle and fill that baby up with nice hot water and put it in a sock or something to put that down in your feet can find all that water bottle. And that's an excellent way to gain a lot of heat. It's a good way to travel in a car when it's cold to to pass out. In between people's hands. So (00:44:57) next listener is waiting with a question. Go ahead, please. Yes. I'm calling from North Minneapolis. And I was wondering if you know where we can get a really good mosquito sprays or you know for using on a (00:45:10) lot. Okay, I think that probably you know things like the Cutters and some of the other manufacturers have have fogs and they have mosquito repellent and things like that and I would think that most any store even grocery stores carry a lot of those things. I you know, if we don't want to blast out the whole neighborhood but at the same time sometimes if you have a reason and you know, people are coming over and stuff that might be a comfortable thing to do or issue mosquito repellent or something like that for the people but so (00:45:38) does anything work on deer (00:45:39) flies? I don't know. It depends clothing does generally quite well and that's where the compromise occurs a lot of times. Some people are more affected than other people and that type of thing your time of the year is another critical time. We just in the Bounty of just being up in the Boundary Waters last weekend. It was a lot of mosquitoes right now and they're pretty hungry. No, they've been around it started out their life and they want to pretty active life. And so they're pretty anxious right now and then but later on in the fall, like when we have our our while backpacking track in September we have very few mosquitoes are alive anymore. Or and bothering you. So to almost a bug free time to be out. So that's one of the best ways to avoid him. Alright, another listener has a question. Go ahead (00:46:19) please. Well, I'm from Duluth great. Um one thing about I heard you talking about sleeping bags and moisture problems that we found that you really had to dry your bag out every day of possible or at least hear it out for an hour and that can make a lot of difference in how warm you're going to be at night. (00:46:41) It does without a doubt that's extremely important. I slipped it in there. But let me speak to it to a little bit more directly that I would try to are my bag if you're gonna have a layover day between when the Sun is up, you know around 8:00 or 9:00 in the morning until around 4:00 or 5:00 in the afternoon and not let it hang out too much longer or late in the evening. However, if I was traveling I put it out before I stuffed it in the morning for 10 or 15 or minutes or an hour and then I put it out later in the evening so that because you'll gain less moisture from the air then probably will be in it from your body. So I would recommend that technique hi. Two are it everyday if you can and we do that in a winter time as well (00:47:15) one more thing about the tent camping. Have you done any plastic dysplastic (00:47:20) camping? Yes, I have I've done a lot of just plastic under a tarp and it's fine mosquitoes are probably one of the best thing one of the easiest things but yeah, I think a tent and a tarp is just fine and a urethane coated nylon tarp, and I'm by 11 is selling off around 50 bucks. So it's not an it's not an inexpensive investment anymore. But that's a very appropriate way to (00:47:39) Camp to one of that clear plastic. Yeah, clear plastic or component along maybe just in case but I think being outdoors in the wilderness you want to be outdoors, you (00:47:49) know. Yeah, that's a person's private event. It's a person's progress in there certainly are a lot of ways of doing you might even sleep out under the stars on real humid night. So you're going to have to are your bags really? Well. The next day a lot of options are (00:47:59) available. Another listener has a question for Tim. Go ahead, please you're next. Yes. I've had trouble getting group situations going. Because one of the ladies in the party would be that time of month and afraid that she was acceptable particularly the Bears and that is can you give any more information on that that we could answer some of this anxiety (00:48:24) with? Yeah, I think it's a I think it's a ridiculous concern in Minnesota and in most areas of the country. I think that it's been overrated and I don't think there's a lot to substantiate any connection between a woman's menstrual cycle or period in the end and bear attacks or anything else. We don't have a grizzly bear problem in Minnesota, you know, we destroyed grizzly bears years ago in this area. Unfortunately, you're eliminated him only in very few places in this country. Do we have him some places in the Rocky Mountains some places in Yellowstone and not very many and some places we get up North and North Central Montana and Alaska and even in those areas, if a person had their cycle at that particular time, I wouldn't necessarily, you know convince a person not to go or try to make them not go into the wilderness. There have been a couple of connections and that type of thing but I don't think the connection is there that great I think do concerning caution, especially around Cubs and in areas where you know Bears have been after people's foods are much more important than that. (00:49:24) Alright, another listener is waiting with a question and you're on the air. Yes a Paul and I want to know the difference or they are there any difference between the carrying capacity for internal frame versus Excel external frame packs. (00:49:41) Well, I mean the carrying capacity is if you're looking for just bolt size, of course, it's going to vary depending on who manufactures the pack and all of that my feelings on first of all, I don't think that a person is can just should just have an internal frame pack or just have an external frame pack or whatever. I think that both of them are valid in a whole lot of situations and some of the new internal pack frames that are made now in costs upwards of $250 are very high quality Paxil. They do tend to rest on your back a little bit better, which is great for skiing and climbing, but they tend to A lot hotter in summer time my actual recommendation to people in taking programs from us and things like that is to look at an external frame pack. Now if they do a lot of canoeing and want to combine it with that and don't want to get another Duluth pack than an internal frame will rest in the bottom of the pack a little bit in the canoe a little bit better than a frame pack will in many cases and I think that people can distribute and carry weight a little bit easier in a frame pack than an internal frame pack generally speaking (00:50:37) getting close to the end of the hour. But before we take another caller Tim, I'd like to hear a little bit about the aisle Royal activity that you mentioned very briefly in passing (00:50:48) just a few moments ago. Well, thanks. I appreciate this opportunity because from September 17th through the 25th for nine days or from the 24th of October 2nd. We're going to spend the American to the American Lung Association of Hennepin County. We're going to spend nine days on our Royal just back packing up their the Leisure change changing. It's an incredible time of the year. (00:51:07) Now. I own Royal is that little Island right (00:51:09) and experience in Lake Superior subordinate? 18 miles off the coast of Grand Portage Minnesota, it's closest to Canada. But Michigan owns it I don't like that system at all. I'm sorry that occurs but have very little control over that anymore but we have claimed it for Minnesota ourselves. And we're going to go out there with several small groups of 10 or fewer group and people become involved in the program for a very small cost and sharing the fairy fee while they're going over there. And then they raise some money for the American Lung Association programs in in the state of Minnesota and it works out a very very effectively for us. It's a third year. We've run the program and if anybody is interested in getting involved in backpacking and or their experience and want the opportunity to go to our Royal we found that people have told us it's one of the best ways that they possibly can do it and when you think about your year when it's all over with that's one of the things that will surface in your mind how (00:52:00) experience do you think a person should be before taking on something (00:52:03) like this? We spend a lot of time in training by five before a person goes out will spend at least nine hours and academic and preparation before a person goes We have excellent excellent leaders that are spending their time and we've had the support of Cortex and Midwest Mountaineering that are that are helping to underwrite the cost of the program and are sharing a lot of experience a lot of their experiences with our trekkers2. So a person has to have absolutely no experience at all. They have to get their own clothing and Equipment together, but we give them a lot of tips and a lot of help in that area and we even supply the food for itself if they're interested. They can call the American Lung Association next week it can I give the number without your answer is eight seven one seven 332 and ask for me or another truck assistant and we'll tell you about the next information session at the Midwest Mountaineering store on July 19th, and we'll explain everything to a slide series and all of that. So thanks for letting me get that in. (00:52:52) I think we have time for you to give a tip to one more listener. Okay. Great Leigh's you're on the air. Hi there. Yes. I'm calling from Granbury great and I have a question about lightning. Uh-huh. I've been aware of a couple experiences in The Boundary Waters where people have been struck by lightning while in their tents, right? And I'm wondering if you have any advice for protecting oneself against that kind of (00:53:16) situation. Yes a little bit. Well, first of all impending weather is bad get off the water, you know, I get off the water and get into the get into an area of equals of even size trees same would not know Prominent Point or anything like that if they're video or if it is a particularly susceptible time of the year for a lot of thunderstorm activity than it's best to Camp not on a point but back into the Wilderness a little bit mostly people are killed because lightning hits a tall tree and it goes right down through the tree and radiates out underground right on the surface of the ground through the root system of the tree since the roots don't get down a long way and one of those roots will go right next to her underneath the tent and that's how most people are killed and I think about one person a year dies on average in The Boundary Waters through a lightning storm. If it's particularly bad weather then I would I would make sure that I can't well up in some other areas and not Beyond a point (00:54:04) Tim we have run out of time, but I want to thank you so much for coming in been a fast our to be sure Tim Leyland who is Active with the American Lung Association and will be leading that trip to Isle Royale. Good luck to you. Thank you very much (00:54:17) Bob and look forward to your return (00:54:18) sometime next winter to talk about winter activities. Great. Thank (00:54:22) you.