First of all, Bob Dunn. Can you give me some concrete examples of what you mean by hazardous waste or hazardous waste is defined in the waste management act are wasted that can't be handled the in or in the way that the normal commercial industrial household a solid waste way. Sorry. And basically what they are are there flammable toxic acid caustic chemical kinds of ways that were they to be put into an ordinary at waste system such as are sanitary landfills are or a sanitary sewers are unsafe for humans. And for the environment are these wastes fairly common or are they generated by only a few companies in a few places? Well, I think the answer to that question is that both the book of hazardous waste come from some larger industrial processes. However, a very large number of business and Industrial Enterprises and even some activities in the home do generate the quantities of hazardous waste which it should not be treated in the same way as as regular voice presents motor oil and petroleum products hazardous cleaning solvents the year the printing shops that do we find all over the state than the body shops and the finishing paint shops is kind of thing all or dealing with waste that they're headed is where are these wastes going right now? That's the problem, of course that because we don't have adequate facilities for dealing with waste where they can be properly handled. These wastes are going in for the most part where they ought not to go have a friend since we know that they're going into landfills regular landfills. That should not then cannot accommodate them. We know that they are being poured on in swamps and in agricultural areas and ditches of roads are being stored in on site and some places where eventually they'll be a problem. And that because we don't have the facilities that they're being improperly handled in there peering through outer environment and there are few dramatic places where we find a concentration of this kind of thing. I'm mostly through something that went on a few years ago places like Oakdale and Spring Valley and Purim and St. Louis Park where these things are made a good deal of news and we'll find more of that and it'll continue until we properly regulate and provide for a for the right kind of disposal. Obviously as you say this kind of disposal has been going on for years and years and years. Why should we be so concerned about it right now? What's the big deal? Well, I think for one thing has been intensifying as far as technology becomes more involved processes have been developed that were unheard of a few years ago for another. I think it was sort of a blind spot in our environmental concerns of the past decade or so. We became very much aware of air pollution because you could see that they could see you smoke and things I did billowing out of stacks that we became aware and emphasized cleaning up our water. But I think this was sort of an overlooked a Missing Link in our environmental controls a picture can these waste be disposed of safely is the technology available wastes of hazardous waste can be disposed of safely and it's being done in other areas. Some of our major generators in this state Big Industry their sophisticated. They're they're aware of their problem in for a number of years. They've been handling them properly about something under 20% of of the hazardous wastes that we believe are generated in Minnesota are being shipped out of the state for disposal in some of their area some other state the word facilities do exist. There are other ways that to dispose of waste besides burial and that of course is one of the things that we believe should be emphasized very Very much in Minnesota. There are friends since you can reuse recycle some kinds of ways. We're doing quite a bit of that now in Minnesota where a motor oil is being re-refined and used again in the course. This makes sense, but with the petroleum shortage to We can neutralize things like bases and acids and make them on hazardous if you will, so they are no longer have to be dealt with in a way that they would have before they retreated. There's processes like solidification incineration that kind of thing that will reduce the volume, but the we feel and I think it's been substantiated that we're going to always have some amount of your ra ductable waste in the form of if you incinerate a book a liquid waste you'll end up with a small amount of Ashton that is still hazardous and has to be buried somewhere. Obviously wants this hazardous waste disposal site that you're working on finding is developed and is operating the new hazardous waste products that are formed will be taken to that place. And don't with what about all the stuff that has been built up over the years in landfills. And in other areas will an effort be made to reclaim that or will that be necessary? I think that's so that's another good reason. We need a SpongeBob and that is that that as you as we have to clean up some of these Former dumpster sites word improper disposition of wastes went on that the materials going to have to be put somewhere and the answer to that will be to put it someplace where it will be safe in a facility that's designed in such a way that it isn't going to escape the way it does say in where was just put in the ground who's going to pay for all this how much will hazardous waste processing cost of processing is eventually going to be paid for course by the consumer and that is certainly proper because it's it's a an actual integral part of the cost of production in and it's been avoided by The Producers these many years and in effect has been dumped had to virtually no cost. But the facility that the state will be operating will have charges connected with it. And the taxpayers will be advancing some money to acquire the site but the cost to to the to the person who the transporter or to the producer, LOL end up being charged to the producer eventually the generator of the waste and of course, they'll pass that on and increase cost of their products. We hear an awful lot these days about the cost of government regulation. The government regulation is a major factor in inflation and in the general economic problems that we have been seeing. Why do you think this particular process is a government cost a government-mandated cost that Society should pay Well, I think we're seeing we're paying the price now for our failure to have the government to regulate hazardous waste handling because it's obviously too cheap and too simple for industry to do it without that regulation. And so that's what's been going on for years and it's very clear that that can continue in. The only way to to do another one in some states. They have facilities that haven't been sighted through a governmental action. But without the regulations requires the generator to use those sites the course the sites won't be used and so regulation one way or another is is necessary in this case. Because there's no Market incentive at the market and send it works the other way the less cost to handling waste the more the more profit to the producer. Do you have any idea in total how much extra this is going to cost? How much is going to cost business the business community? No, it's it's very difficult to say this. The facility actually hasn't been designed. I were so early in the process that we really don't know the amount of wasted. We're dealing with the we have some idea. We don't know what kind of process will be required for what types of waste so we're away away from that point you it is 21 1/2 minutes past 12 noon Our Guest is Robert Dunn chairman of the waste management board in Minnesota. If you would like to ask him a question about hazardous waste we invite you to call in in the Twin Cities area at 2 to 11589 or 22115 9 1 outside Minneapolis st. Paul call us toll-free at 800-652-9700 those telephone numbers again in the Twin Cities to to 11589 or 2211. 591 and outside Minneapolis-Saint Paul 800-652-9700 How's the process going? How are you coming on picking the site? We're a very early in the process at this point. And in order because of the of the public perception of this problem, which has resulted from a lot of scary situations arising from improper disposition. We recognized in the legislature recognized at the beginning of this whole process that public acceptance of whatever happened. I was really one of the main problems in this whole thing weekend their number places, we could build a site and they're all kinds of methods to make it safe and all kinds of Technologies to Monitor and assure that good continue safe operation, but the public acceptance of this process, it was our mean obstacle and continuous all So the board decided to very early units deliberations after we first met in July that the process should be opened up to a total of public participation at the very beginning. So the public would help the board develop even the criteria that would lead to the location of the site and we're in the word about the two-thirds of the way through that process now, I think we're at the point where After some meetings, we've helped 19 meetings around the state one in each of the out State Regional development areas, and I want to meet you the Metropolitan counties. Where people who have expressed an interest in they've been crowds as high as a 500. And even larger I guess so GIF come in and in the first meeting, we gave them some information about the what the waist problems about what the board was attempting to do. What waste there were and what process is there were some of the things that related to standards are factors that we should think about him. We might think about an inciting facilities not only for the disposal site before these processing sites. And then we asked on the second meeting for these citizens to come back and discuss what they thought about these factors what criteria they thought should be emphasized in siding and we're getting excellent their participation in this. when we leave the finish this process the board will then look at all this information this this opinion input 2 comes out of these meetings and will begin to identify then the certain areas in the state that emerge of using these criteria for citing and then we'll go back again to to our meetings and get the reaction of the public and some further info we find out what some concerns our folks right now. I'm of the question for Robert Dunn. Hello. May we have your question? Please having them for not having a clay bottom in the pit. And what I wonder is what reasons are there to think that the pollutants Witcher put in a pet even that had a clay bottom would not Leach out since rainwater leeches out or otherwise, it would be a lake. That's my question. one of the one of the things about that area in the Minnesota the Southeastern part of the state that tends to make it to not the very feasible location in most places for a facility. Even for solid waste facility. That's a problem is the fact that there is a very substantial a groundwater system there a large quantities of groundwater. The doors the doors groundwater aquifers are protected protected actually because of a porous Bedrock above that in some cases even almost direct communication through the sinkholes in other areas where it's a very rapidly ground water gets into the end of the to the surface water gets into the groundwater. So the only protection in a case like that would be if there were a very very improbable layer of clay and some claser will hold water for a long long time. If there were an adequate layer of clay above that to protect that to keep the leachates from getting into the Bedrock and then into the groundwater. and of course the remember that nobody thought that these were there hazardous or toxic waste we're going into the landfill, but even then of course, you don't want leachates from a solid waste situation getting into the groundwater either some Clays that are very impermeable and it's that In the depth of it would make a difference and and that's there some standards have been worked out for the federal EPA that they use to determine the acceptability for that kind of thing. Remora listeners on the telephone with questions. Let's take our next caller now. Hello, you're on the air my own ways that I really don't know what to do with you no, mineral spirits and turpentine and things like that and I'm sure that there's other people who might be listening who might have their own ways to and yet I have no idea what to do with it. Thank you. That's a good point. Then the problems of having the kind of facilities to deal with the waste in those ways that you mention of course are a hazardous waste albeit very a minor quantities. But when you think about the fact that this kind of thing over the state then several million people. We we generate a substantial amount of waste like that. But when we when we don't have any you do a proper facility for this thing, it's a problem and I guess we need at this point we can and suggested that you try not to dispose of them up and threw a normal method like putting them in the garbage can or pouring them down the sewer because of that is right, but we can't offer you until we come up with some facilities anything more you can properly put those places but those kinds of weight. Okay, let's take another color. Hello. You're on the air. It seems like as a society. One of the things we have to deal with is the reduction of hazardous waste generation, which cannot be treated and become safe and the legislators in Minnesota very wisely set this as the first of all in the waste management Act of 1982 facilitate that now This is certainly this is certainly true. I think of all the the methods of dealing with waste the most obvious the sensible one is to not generate the ways to begin with. So what what will be happening at the right at this point. The board is is in the process of developing our management plant. I'm sure that the reduction of wastes that at the very beginning is going to be a major effort a part of this will be through education a part of it will be the natural result of policies that the board uses with respect to fees at the more expensive kinds of treatment and processing that are necessary of the more the incentive will be enough to generate waste begin with I was told just this past week that the firm in, Wisconsin. Which brought those way some of which were a hazardous to a Spring Valley and caused all that problem down there has now altered their the process that they use so that they're not producing that waste at all anymore. This is partly because people are becoming more aware of the fact that hazardous waste our problem by that there. Is there a cost to the producer they have to keep track of them after report them to the government. They're being monitored followed up. I know have to pay very much higher cost for the disposing of them. So they'll be will be in natural tendency. I think for Industries as a cost-cutting measure and there many of them are going through this right now to reduce their reproduction of hazardous waste and policies is the board that will undertake. I'm sure will further that that tendency 28 minutes before 1 we're talking this noon with Robert Dunn. Chairman of the waste management board. Our topic is hazardous waste and the telephone lines at this moment are open. If you have a question about hazardous waste College in the Twin Cities area at 2 to 11589 or 22115 9 1 outside Minneapolis-Saint Paul. The toll-free number is 800-652-9700 is a good opportunity to talk with the man in charge as it is waste in Minnesota. Why should Minnesota have a hazardous waste site? Why don't we just ship it out of state? Let somebody else deal with it. Look, where is that? So that's the position we're in now and there's a couple of reasons that there that isn't an ideal situation in the first place. There's beginning to be as reaction develops in in other states and they'll be faced with replacing their present sites with additional disposal sites. There's a natural question coming from those citizen. So, you know, why should we be the quote Dumping Ground unquote for Minnesota and other states that there aren't willing to provide their own facilities. And that you know, you have to sort of sympathizer that we hope that they will be able to continue to utilize with that are producers and generators will be continued. It will be able to continue to utilize those two sites in other states and then maybe a dozen other states where or more or Minnesota generators are now a shipping there real ways. That's the less than 20% that's being properly disposed to the converse question. Is that is of course if Minnesota develops this site will we become The Dumping Ground that that's one of the things that the public is very much concerned about then I think it's their very forcibly telling the board in our meetings around the state that they don't want that to happen. And I think there are some policies that the we can adopt that will will tend to keep that Donna course. So one thing in Minnesota is not in a central location are surrounded by a heavy industrial States. So it's hard to believe that the big industrial generators of hazardous waste you're going to ship their waste through states were they could dispose of it that and when they have a much closer much more closely available sites. I think I don't think it's going to come by and I think the board will institute to policies and Methods of did will tend to restrict that very strongly because the public doesn't want that. We have a number of listeners on the telephone with questions for you. Robert. Let's take our next caller now. Hello, you're on the air. Go ahead, please may we have your question if you put if you put a waste in a in an area where you have a clay bottom and the water does go through that. Why won't the waste go through it. I didn't understand that answer. I think you're right. I did get off a little Tangen. I was talking about the function of the clay as protecting the granddaughters. Let me let me say this that The areas where the insights like this where clay alone is used. Generally from what I've been able to tell they have very heavy deposits of clay and sometimes a very a small or non-existent groundwater resources underneath our friendship is there is a site in the Alabama or some Minnesota waste are being shipped out where there's about five hundred feet of clay and then where there is no really major groundwater resources underneath they figure that it'll take at that density that they think it'll take about fifty thousand years for anything to go through that clay. And by the time it got through would be very safe. We don't probably have anything like that in Minnesota. So it won't be just simple clay that will be depending upon there will be other other methods of protecting a leachate collection system in case something does get through and then on top of that water will be kept away from the site. They'll be methods of covering this thing pulling water out of any trench. We may use a vinyl. Liners is kind of thing. And so it isn't as if the water will be at just although the rain water and snow melt will be getting into this kind of a site. Maybe that explains a little better. Okay. Let's try another color. Hello. You're on the Army. We have your question, please. Set out. I believe it's called that Forsyte. We're back in Philly hazardous waste, but we're not going to be used as a fuel. And I was curious as to whether or not the grant money that you have available for demonstration purposes. What they used for small facilities such as scrap wood at that keeps that was materials out of the solid waste stream. I'm aware that such a plan to Fall South Dakota where they heat the whole plant with the waste products are generated within the plant. Hang up at this point. The the color mentioned some some Grant and Loan money that the waste management board will have in that that relates to Solid Waste demonstration projects of a potential Statewide applicability that the waste management board is is going to be a funding as alternatives to landfills just as we have a problem finding a disposal site for hazardous waste a we have a problem in Minnesota and elsewhere about overuse of our solid waste our regular sanitary landfills in the fact that they're becoming more difficult to locate their taking more land and there were just using too much we have to develop other ways to handle it as far as handling as far as the grants for a specific individual industrial on-site two kinds of use of wood than other waste. I think that's such a well-established Technique. We haven't developed a rule today slowly but I think that's such a well-established potential that it is feasible in there is equipment available. I wouldn't think we'd be doing much demonstration grant or loan money on that the most of what we do will be working with that with that some project that's being applied for by County which or other governmental unit attempting to work out an alternative to increase the landfill use you have the responsibility for dealing with hazardous waste and eventually Solid Waste in a limited way. We'll be dealing with some of the solid waste problems and but not the to any great extent. Okay, but several along to some other listeners who have questions for Robert Dunn from the waste management board, LOL. You're on the air. May we have your question, please? Trim company has an incinerator at their candlelight plant are they presently taking care of their own ways. Could they take care of other people's ways one more thing. Could they possibly take care of some of their waste that is presently in Oakdale. I'll hang up now and 11. The incinerator Unidad 3M is in excellent example of a larger generator handling their waste in a very responsible technologically acceptable weight. Oh what is going on there? And and it requires because of the different they have to know what wastes are dealing with and how to how to use those different processes work for different ways. I think one of the 3M concerns is they had a very carefully track what kinds of ways go to that plant. They're labeled of the barrels are labeled and then that makes a difference what processes use and how they dispose of the residue and all that. So I think that I had a really can't speak for them, but I would think that they might be reluctant to take ways from others because they might be a might not have that kind of careful identification and tracking that they think is necessary in there could be some liability exposure for them. It's conceivable and I think there were there should be some kind of a commercial processing operation. For other generators who can't afford to have their own kind of facility like the camel light incinerator. I don't know what one of the facets of the question is. How much of 3 amps waste is being handled by the candlelight. I don't really know I think of the vertebral kind of wasted a lot of them are and there was one third part of that today whether it would it be possible for some of the Oakdale ways to be taken care of there. I just don't have any idea. What kind of waste is in the Oakdale site. That's do you push and control agency has jurisdiction over enforcing a clean ups and tracking the waist and really the whole regulatory thing with hazardous waste City Waste Management boards function is to develop a plan and to do the exciting of facilities of all, Kinds and we don't do anything with the regulation of voice. There are more people on the telephone with questions for you. So let's take our next caller right now. Hello, you're on the are septic tanks, which way I'm wondering where should they be deposited when they're pumped we've seen trucks on field and metals like 250 on the county road 1000 feet of homes, which doesn't sound right and we're wondering what kind of rules are and what kind of surveillance there is or who are other people surveilling these this kind of waste is is is the responsibility of the pollution control agency again, and they are not in themselves hazardous, but obviously what time I just kind of disposition is is not proper and I'd suggested to this call or contact the pollution control agency. 2 in their area they have Regional Offices are the city or the Roseville office and to find out this is not the end. This is not in the sphere of activity of the waste management board at all. Another car. May we have your question, please the best sites possibly be for Bedrock net for the thing. Jose indicated there earlier. I think the there are a great many places that we might cite the facility did and a lot would depend upon how it would be engineered and the technology that would be used. The public guy is telling us as we're getting back the opinion from the people in Minnesota in these meetings that they feel that the protection of groundwater resources. That is a very a major consideration. If if groundwater resources protection is the most important factor in the more we haven't we are far enough along to know whether that's true but it certainly is going to be one of the major considerations. Then the best way you can protect the groundwater resources is the first of all not to locate such a facility in an area where there is where there's ground water above the Bedrock it in the glacial drift that the cover of Earth above the Bedrock. then to to pick an area with the harder more impervious kinds of Bedrock which provides a layer of protection over aquifers that blow that and to utilize soils that tend to be less permeable and not the Sand & gravel's and light soils but utilizing the heavier soil. So that's one factor other factors of the Commander in there how far from the generator the sites might be located to how a denson area population. We might want to consider the the types of land used for incense. Is it the prime farmland or highly productive Forest land should we emphasize that the possibility of utilizing a publicly owned land is a supposed to private land a lot of other factors and the the public opinion as to how these factors should be evaluated against each other is the prices for now going through and and will then begin to identify sites. A based on those criteria as as we develop them 14 minutes before 1 Robert Dunn is our guest as noon were talking about hazardous waste and the location of a future hazardous waste processing site in Minnesota. The telephone lines are open from time to time as people drop off the line becomes open and if you would like to propose a question, this might be a good time to call 221-1589 or 221-1591 in the Twin Cities outside of the metropolitan area 800-652-9700. And if you got a busy signal the first time don't be discouraged keep on trying they have another color with a question, LOL. You're on the air. I'm calling I have two questions for mr. Done. The first one refers to his earlier comments about reducing hazardous waste. I wonder if you would say you're wanting to use the cost of disposal to deter or to help to encourage industry to reduce their generation of waste. And I wonder then how do you plan to ensure that the industrial uses don't be identified the cells according to the MPC? And the other question I wanted to know is have you considered any other alternatives to a centralized? I'm not talking about recycling or reducing waste but I'm talking about a location of a dump site. Have you talked to ourselves about any other alternative than one large State dump? Those are two excellent questions and the one about the the Acosta incentive and the problem and involved if costs are too high will industry avoid using the dump and will and will we be back into a situation where you have a lot of midnight dumping this kind of thing. That's a very real concern. And and I think it's it's going to be a fine balance. We want the ideal situation would be where your head your cost level a pig to the point where the generator was paying all the cost and none was falling back on the general public except indirectly as consumers. And then that's the the person who uses the product that pays for it. But obviously if you if you could cost too high, then you do have a problem. So it's a delicate balancing and will were aware that will have to be very careful. I think it's it an excellent question. On the the other one, which is are we considering an alternative to one major site and I would say yes that the law merely requires that we provide at least one at least a disposal facility for hazardous waste and I depending upon what criteria is come out of our criteria development process and how those criteria apply to the geography of the state and the economy of the state. It is conceivable that could be there could be more than one that may very well be more than one site disposal site. Do you anticipate enforcement problems at this point? Light enforcement problems course and ongoing thing and in any in any law that can I make a burden or some other kind of burden on people. by and large, I think a lot of industry in Minnesota has been aware of and sensitive two of the problems of hazardous waste the night. I think a lot of is the Counterpoint not only about half of the volume of Industrial Waste. We believed or hazardous waste have been reported at this time. And that's going to be a long process of following up but by the pollution control agencies, if they they will find out when several industries of one type of reported that'll mean going back to other industries of that same type to find out why they didn't report and some of this reporting can be difficult and requires analysis and some understanding and sophistication that doesn't exist particularly with smaller Enterprises. So it's an ongoing problem, but I think we'll have to be very thorough with this because the system is there. So the will it we should know if it's properly handled who generates the wastes and who then pixels wakes up from that plant and how they're being handled specifically what kind of waste they are and where they're being a taken. And I think that the kind of enforcement is going to be a very important all the way down the line more listeners on the telephone with questions for Robert Dunn. Hello. You're on the air. May we have your question, please? Go ahead. You're on the air. All right, we'll switch over to another line and try this person. Hello. You're on the air. May we have your question? One thing is that we are a generator and a lot of other states. I would just like to say that we should remind ourselves that we I have heard that there is a schedule this week. It's been a kind of fight that could be looked at for, Minnesota. are your point about all of us being generators is certainly a good one because there are our society is just a totally dependent upon products that they can't be manufactured under present systems without generating hazardous waste and I'm glad you pointed this out because it is a problem. We all face as far as the excite above-ground. I have not personally been aware of that site. Although and Utah, although I do understand that there are some some such facilities and one of the problems courses that we may be talking about a substantial volume of ways that we think of somewhere between 120 and 150000 tons of hazardous waste generated in Minnesota each year and that kind of facility above ground. They could be a problem with respect to size and you still would have to located in an area where the geology and other factors Would be favorable and so it I'm not certainly be any event. We will be Consulting with and are now Consulting with with people who are expert in the technology of this field of with respect to design and and systems and they've had experience with it with other hazardous waste facilities in the will be getting that a lot of good information from them. 6 minutes before 1 we have time for some more calls on the topic of hazardous waste our next listener is standing by. Hello. You're on the air. And I'm wondering if you know possibly know the name of the chemical which is threatening the groundwater and where and how the private citizen can test his own well for the chemicals presents. I guess I really can't help you there the I would suggest that the Minnesota Department of Health is really responsible for that kind of groundwater testing. And if you could contact perhaps through your your local County Health Department of the Minnesota Department of Health. I think they could help you there. The pollution control agency has a regional office in Rochester. And I think there's somebody out near Spring Valley working that thing they could probably identify the chemical that's involved. We have another caller with a question. Hello, you're on the air as far as we know at present what will ever become of these will they decompose? Will it become non toxic and how long would that process take? The wasted would be stored at the site would be separated out probably into the certain kinds of categories isolated in little cells within the facility and I think that the supposition is that the four most of these and I'm sure there would be a variety of of life's but for most of these that the site would be kept away from development and would be set aside and indefinitely I monitored and and protected then and not be developed. So I think from what we know now it would be really in isolation for almost indefinitely. We have time for one more color. Let's take that person right now. Hello. You're on the air. According to officials in the state mpca office. They are not aware of a hazardous waste site, which is a barrier to sylheti which is not has performed according to design materials, which may not be compatible where they cannot be monitored. Well, I think we wouldn't anticipate almost nothing this design by man is absolutely foolproof. You knowing we would anticipate that in a disposal site. I would be designed specifically to retrieve any anything that escaped with a collection system of some kind would be intensively a monitored. Then we'd have monitoring Wells all around the area and so we wouldn't assume that once in the ground at least waste would be safe at all way. They'd be constantly under surveillance just about out of time. I've done I want to thank you very much for coming and visiting with us today about hazardous waste. My last question will be when will we know for sure where this site will be what when when is your deadline? On the timetable set forth in the law would indicate that the early summer we should have picked the number of sites that would be proposed for what's called candidate sites. Then by September, we will look Pick 6 sites which will be termed as candidate sites. And those will be sites that we have. Every reason to believe will be will survive an environmental impact statement study and I will be properly suited for a disposal facility will work with those communities and learn everything we can about those sites and have them help us work on the design and what the what mitigating factors the state might to provide for some of the adverse local effects and we expected to buy 1983 or one of those six will be selected. The site and perhaps some more than one maybe two or more even more lost her will be watching your progress and following your decisions, very carefully for the next couple of years Robert Dunn German lovely, Minnesota Waste Management board.