In our studio this afternoon. We have two guests to know quite a bit about Earth sheltered housing and I what's going on in that field Dothan Minnesota and around the country. Erase Sterling is director of the underground Space Center at the University of Minnesota a national Center for underground Earth sheltered housing, even though it wasn't intended to be that at the very beginning but you seem to be getting quite a bit of input from people around the country and also Kathy Vadnais who is editor of the earth sheltered digest and energy report a new magazine, which is based in St. Paul and it does have as one of its specific purposes to go to bring all the people in the United States and in the region who are interested in our shelter housing together sort of a central information. Thank you both very much for being here. I guess. I'd like to throw out of her a general question to begin with just for people who areListening who may not know too much about the idea of Earth sheltered housing as an option in an age when energy costs are steadily increasing. I'm wondering what you see as the advantages to do this kind of housing. Maybe you can describe how it works. Dr. Sterling while I think the primary benefit must be seen in the energy side of the moment because that's where people's interests hour. And I think that's why we seen a suddenly increasing amount of interest in our Charlotte housing it the house is energy efficient primarily because it's set back into the Earth a certain amount still leaving windows out to the outside and what happens when you said something into the Earth is that the temperature is in the Earth the changes over the year of phallus severe than they are in the air outside. Where is we have a 130 degree temperature variation from went to the summer in the air when you go 10 feet underground the temperature.Variation is less than 20 degrees. So it gives you a far more moderate climate that your building structure is put into Kathy. Could you describe for me what an earth-sheltered house really? Looks like I think it is especially well because we're on radio we can show people a picture of it but it. It's something that many people don't understand that sometimes believe that when you're talking about her shelter housing talking about cave. I think this is something that's probably very am misunderstood and the fact of the matter kristallnacht caves and many of the homes that are being built especially aesthetically done. They they have very contemporary Furnishing or whatever. The people are interested in their very nice houses. And in fact, we've seen examples for people have gone through some of these homes on tour and they've been almost disappointment. They stand there almost stricken because they're expecting like you say, maybe a cave and a few bats and some stalactites and stalagmites. I just don't find this.Structure isn't covered with her is that correct? Not necessarily there. There are many versions of Earth sheltered housing across the country and their various definitions. The the ones that we see most of our usually covered on three sides of the structure with the one side exposed and most commonly that side is aimed for the sun. Usually Southern Exposure so they can get the most benefits from the the sun's heat and Sav got quite a bit of glass down on the South Side. Usually it would seem just for someone who doesn't know the technical aspects of this that I would you would lose a lot of heat through that glass. If you open up any any large glass area to two temperatures that are 30 below outside or whatever that you would naturally do not want to have that.Unfortunately in Minnesota when it gets cold at all so generally gets sunny and so I already is quite good for solar heating and if you open a large glass areas up to the south, then you're able to get the sun shining in through the windows and for a double glazed window facing south if you adjust to pull heavy drapes at 9 without any special and chelated chattering you'd be pretty much in a situation where the windows would be in that energy game for you and I'll let you let it shine and during the day close the drapes at night and the Tramp part of it in that if you go to more heavily insulated Shottas, then it becomes a very launch game. What do you lose in? This is I know I mean there are people who who thinking and rightfully so that the exterior of a house is a very beautiful thing and in an art in itself. Is there something lost their when you haveA lot of side and some some Open Glass on the Southside. Can you lose the opportunity to paint your house once every few years and he probably won't have to rough it too often. I can't think of too many disadvantages is one fell. I know who said he built in her sheltered home. We purposely put plywood under the eaves. So it has something to do around the house leakage. Dr. Sterling of people seem to to feel and I am again in all right for the seller. If you cover something with earth water will sink through it. You'll have water sitting on the on the top of your house. All this Earth sitting on top of the pushing down and you may very well have water seeping through I think that's right. There are two major concerns when you build into the ground one would be making sure your house has the structure to hold it back and to the waterproofing and I did something that careful attention should be paid toBut at the same time at there are products available that can do the proper job and coupled with drainage system around the house. There's no reason why you should have any water leaking into the house. I think people tend to compare it to a typical basement that they have now I which is rather unfair because basements were not designed and still really aren't designed and built as Supreme living space. And so where they may have some damp proofing they suddenly don't have a proper waterproofing system built into it an existing base. The technology does exist to Jamaica or shelter house water waterproof. That's fine.We're going to be opening up this discussion not to listener questions and just a few minutes. For those of you who might have just tuned in were talking to Doctor Ray Sterling of the underground Space Center at the University of Minnesota and Kathy Vadnais who is editor of the earth sheltered digest when you do call in with your questions, here are the numbers to dial 221-1550. If you live in the Twin Cities is the telephone number to call to 21155 hour. If you live outside the Twin Cities, but within the state of Minnesota, you can call us toll-free on a Watts line that number one 800-652-9700. That's one 800-652-9700. If you have some questions about Earth sheltered housing and while we wait for people to go to their phone to give us a call. I'd like to know Kathy what you see as the amount of public interest in Earth sheltered housing every once in a while. There is an opportunity for people to ask questions as we saw at the Home and Garden Show in Minneapolis.Too long ago were there occasionally seminars held that people can come to what kind of response do you normally get to something like that and I guess their response has been pretty phenomenal. I'm a little history in our publication. We have another publication out of web publishing called the hammer and that goes to builders and remodelers in the Midwest and several articles for a run last run or Sheltering and to the point that will make it a publisher decided. It was worthy of a second magazine what she now is circulating National. We're in all 50 states already and we've just been out since February 1st issue actually got out of the hands of the public and we have just been inundated with calls and our contacts have let us all over the country and every time it seems that there's anything published under Sheltering the responses is really high just friends since the Associated Press ran an article a month or so ago and the reporter who wrote that article indicated that he had the most response and Antarctica have ever had and any Article 2 gun through theFires across the country and it's the same kind of thing. We see and everything races it then his conferences which he's holding and anyone who indicates it seems that they're having some sort of a conference maybe plans for 25 or 30 people and they end up having to set up a couple hundred shares for standing room only. Okay, I believe we do have some callers on the line. So the first one should be up. Have you got a question? Hello, you're on the air. Have you got a question? Now you're on the air. Have you got a question about waterproofing you mentioned there were good methods for waterproofing or if you could detail one of these for me and give me an idea of exactly how you go about that waterproofing Festival lady that you want to waterproof on the outside of the structure to stop the water from getting into the the structure of the house waterproofing is best applied directly to the structure rather than over any insulation, which is also known as put outside the structure so that the mass works with the with the inside of a house. Then not as far as products available. There are several different kinds of products that are acceptable and Juice should send me look for is a waterproofing product rather than a damp proofing product of some of the waterproofing products that would be acceptable off products of Bentonite which is a clay which expands and swells in contact with water. And I also there was several different versions of that. There's also a product data sheet membranes, which I can be applied over glued onto the structure and then the seams between the sheets of rubber on neoprene seam welded on the site together. So you have a continuous line up in effect over the structure or else you can get to polymer membrane to set you a trial or spray-on that set out to form a continuous membrane. Possibility standing waterproofing right now. Okay. Thank you for your question. We have several other callers on the line. I believe go ahead you're on the air. Have you got a question. Subscription information to the shelter digester? What are the name of the journalist? We publish out of st. Paul right here. The address is 479 Fort Road Fort St. Paul 55102 and are subscriptions are $15 a year or 25 for 2 years. Okay, and people can simply write to you or give the office a call and didn't mean to okay fine. We're taking questions on Earth sheltered housing. We have another caller on the line. You're on the air. If you got a question, I just read an article about Earth feels like going there was made from preformed fiberglass reinforced plywood panels and it's a prefab kind of thing that has a fiberglass panels and I wondered if you had known anything about it and what you thought of it if you do. No, I'm not familiar with that particular construction and I haven't seen any testator or engineering reports on the preformed fiberglass panel. So I'm a little bit of the Lost who I answer that question. I am familiar with one structure in Illinois that's being put up if anyone is interested more information on that, maybe we could save time and they call us at the office. And the number there is 292-8484. Area code 612. How does somebody know if they do come across some kind of method for building an earth-sheltered of structure whether or not that's really a reliable way to do it. I think the thing that we're trying to explain to people in this particular type of constructions extremely critical that they work with an architect and engineer because it's Soother the Earth loads of stresses are just really heavy on the foundation. Right, I'd agree with that time. If you walk out with a professional architect or engineer, they can request the testator on the products that have been considered and can evaluate them and have the expertise to do that. Okay, fine. We have more people on the line. You're on the air. Have you got a question for dr. Sterling or Kathy Venice? Are the one thing I have been concerned about in. I have just gotten to looking into under this type of housing. What about fire in these houses and chances of escaping and things like this and the safety of Okay, then you still have the same problems with the fire within the house as far as Life. Safety is concerned because even though the majority of these structures of concrete and the structure is likely to suffer very little damage in a file that's still enough combustibles within the house in terms of the Furnishing and enough toxic materials that you they are not tagged completely fine save the codes require you to have direct exits from the sleeping areas a house to the outside to separate taxes from a bedroom area would also probably be acceptable to most code officials. And in this way sleeping areas is weather real problem, says that you have a window then to the outside to escape from exactly like any other house because of the reduced our damage potential for the houses and also their reduce stuff potential for damage from ice pack help and storm damage and tornado damage. Some insurance companies are offering insurance premium. Is that a 35 to 45% lower than for a conventional house can't thank you for that question. We have other cars waiting now you're on the air. Have you got a question I question is probably answered. Problems with one run into regarding codes financing unions are in City Insidious and financing. Okay. Well, I think God codes was was the first patent there are two or three major code Provisions that that is somewhat different all have special implications for no Sheldon house as opposed to Conventional house. One of them was the exit requirement from bedrooms. And I already talked about that a second one would be natural vs. Mechanical ventilation and the amoso Shelton structures. You're going to be able to get adequate natural ventilation. If you have openings on more than one side. If you don't you can do you are allowed by the code to substitute mechanical ventilation. So again, that really isn't the problem. The third requirement is that you have a certain amount of natural light into a habit. Drums, and again with almost all of the designs that we see in that happening build. They do have adequate windows and thank sometimes more windows in a conventional housing so they can meet the natural light requirements as far as financing goes. It's a very variable picture right now. The bank is the most concerned about the resale value of the house. In other words if they load money on the housing for one reason or another the person who borrows the money defaults on the loan and they are left with a house trying to sell it to get that money back out of it is the weather there is a market for this type of house and whether they can sell it I think the interests at 7 generated over the last couple of years is starting to wake and most financial institutions fact that there is a market for this and so we're starting to see some of the Skepticism and resistance to financing not to ever why am I see that situation changing very rapidly over the next couple years. Are there any special problems are related to constructing a house that are sheltered housing in the city as opposed to a rural area. It seems that many of them are in rural areas and and not so many in cities in rural areas. I may have something to do with the codes and then not as many zoning problems but is Israel indicated that's loosening up and I think we're seeing it specifically in are subscriptions to stuff. For instance. We're getting subscriptions from planning people in code people in in the financial am segments of the society and I think that's probably going to be changing and Chris. Maybe Ray can explain some things are going on. The city's not to that he knows about As I lay there is really isn't any reason that they can't be built in the in the cities and some products are being built in the cities that the obvious reason why more being built in rural areas and suburbs is of this mole and available that it is somewhat more difficult to Blendon us Sheldon house on a single lot in with number of conventional houses. But for instance, I in South Minneapolis as a project to 12 s Shelton townhouses, which is under construction right now. That's part of a Minnesota Housing Finance Agency demonstration program. So there is some work going on in the city. There are two others in St. Paul at I'm familiar with one of them all to you in another two family single-family dwelling in there looking to build right in the city 2 and blend dragons coming through colors are stacked up on top of each other like big jets waiting to land so we better get to them. We have another one on the line. Have you got a question? I understand. There was a model that was made for viewing. Yeah, that's right under the demonstration program of the Housing Finance Agency and they will be a total of eight of sheltered housing projects which will be available for viewing at various times over this summer. The first of these is completed now, it's in Burnsville and its Scenic Lane and 155th Street in Burnsville. It's open from 1 to 4 on Saturday and Sunday afternoons, and it's open from 5 till 8 on Thursday evenings. Canton and another thing. We know of a couple other models coming through of actual a contractors Builders who are going to be putting structures up for display in the metropolitan area within the next year. So that will be available to we found another interesting question that was found and I guess the person didn't want to be on a year but it has to do with the climate especially in places as far north as Duluth where the Deep Frost goes from four to six feet down and this particular color was wondering about the effect of that kind of deep frost on the sheltered housing and whatever kind of protective measures must be followed to to you don't provide for that. Well what will happen if you sink a heated structure into the ground is it said tell you will not get the frost coming right up to the building because the heat loss from the building which of the fairly small that will keep the ground. At Walmart temperature around the building and find that some of the thermal storage that you can see in the building likewise over the roofline. You would the cold regions that you get to the morning chelation. You would like to put over the building in the areas where the Earth covers small is the Earth is not a wonderful in July. But it is very effective in moderating temperature. So you want to insulate over the parts of the structure where the Earth covers small and I don't see a lot of problem from Frost death Frost. Is Maine going to give you a problem with parapet walls and Jen. Are you trying to stay away from those fun? We've got more callers and other one is on the air. Please don't go ahead with your question. Wanted to know her to get the air shoulder magazine and the second if there is a list of contractors if they have a list of contractors who build these homes The magazine can be obtained by sending a check for $15 or for $25 per year for 2 years to our offices or shelter digest at 479 Fort Road sfrt in St. Paul 55102. And as far as a contractor's probably that would be best if we talked with you all so I guess if you'd want to call to 92848 for and maybe the underground Space Center has some other information on it or we do have a limited list of contractors people come in and contact us and say that they are on a shallot housing contractor with putting their names on a list and that list would be available on fortunately. We can't give any kind of evaluation or guarantee with that too. That's what it is. All it would be is just a list of people who have contacted us saying that they're building us Shelton houses. Is there any way to be sure? Tractor knows what they'll are you sure you're doing something like that. I think you just have to evaluate what they what they have done and pasta project side. By the way the record with the local business. Bureau's okay fine. Let's take another question from another call or higher on the Air cost per square foot. Cost per square foot that we here cuz we always trying to decide when we care about a structure very quiet too widely and one of the problems in assessing a direct cost per square foot. Is it only about a third of the cost of a house is embedded in the structure and the weather proofing of the house and the other two studs is in the ancillary features and the finishing send the rest of it. So the area where no Sheldon house is really different Tony accounts for about a third of the total cost. So you can imagine that it's difficult to compare compare the two times from that point of view without having something that's finished to the same standard. Having said that the cost that we see very varied all the way up from $20 a square foot out to 60 to $70 a square foot. I'd say for estimation purposes at the moment round about $50 a square foot is is a reasonable number if you're going to take plans out and have them bid on by by number of local area contractors. If you go with one of the few phones not to starting to build these houses repetitively and so that they that plans a hoe down a little more intense a reducing costs somewhere in the range of $45 a square foot cramps a little below that would be would be more typical. I think we're on the beginning end of a learning curve on Designing and building cost effective is Sheldon houses and the cost will come down relative to Conventional construction fine. Okay, we're talkin to dr. Ray Sterling of the University of Minnesota and Kathy asked about Earth sheltered housing waiting around the are questioned inside size of an Earth Earth shelter house compared to the size of the typical house in the city, you know, like where I am used to living in a large three-story. How do you find in the in the middle in the middle of Minneapolis? How big is a room all the way across the country a custom-built. So if you were to build your own home, you would build it to your specifications and you can make the rooms with large or small as you wanted. I'm crisis why the problem see homes aren't being sold. So we're not getting comparisons for the lenders. But maybe Ray can comment on that. There is this the styles of the structures they vary you can get an open Atrium. So you have it at Courtyard in a dove use it as an extra patio room sort of area or there's two stories single linear sorts of buildings there all kinds of structures were seeing my house is the range all the way from under a thousand square feet to 7000 square feet in a room size is clear span, so you can go up in the 25 to 30 foot Ranger clearspan even with enough covering over so you're not really Limited in terms of room size very severely place by the distance between support walls in a conventional house as general far more limited. one of the one of the other considerations What does it have to do with what kind of structure you using because if you use a wood structure for the house, then you would have to have a far more limited spans and the general Moshe Sheldon houses. You do lose the basement space because you don't build an additional basement. Okay, if we have time for a couple more colors looks like another one high around the are a problem that I'm worried about is that the land is pure red clay and it has a percolation rate that's practically off the scale. It's so slow and the kind of problems you get are not only stupid but wait, it holds water forever. And it's it's so serious that they said they're almost not allowing people to put in conventional septic systems out here anymore, and I'm wondering if anyone's tried building one of these houses. With such a such conditions and what kind of problems they run into and if that radically alters the cost effectiveness of building in a shelter house. Well, if you ask if the client is is very soft so that you would have Foundation problems or if it has any swelling or squeezing properties and I think it would be a clay to stay away from if it's just has a very low permeability yendes heavy. I think you can design for laptop without too much increase in cost. You could just bring the Spanish down slightly because it isn't going to increase in White Center Mendes amount over what you would design for Andreas all because you would design for Olas Isles to be saturated on the design conditions. In terms of drainage you would want to look at putting a drainage layer around the structure so that you drain off the water pressure. You can do that either by bringing in a gravel backfill Foundation drains or else are all the products that you can put on the wall at provider how much thinner drainage laugh so you don't have to bring it back fill from a long distance away, Okay. I think we have time for one more question. If we've got another color you're on the front of your go ahead and ask your question and they said that Wisconsin had recently passed legislation that relieves that but you can code requirement to some degree currently passing similar legislation. Can you can you tell us about it? As far as I know there is no legislation specifically going to remove the requirement for direct exit to the outside from bedrooms. However, we've had a number of discussions with state code officials and had a conference about two weeks ago regarding code questions and it would send me a clear indication that a properly designed separate exits providing to separate means of escape from a sleeping area would be acceptable either as an interpretation by the building official like or as a variance from the from the state board that maybe your requirement that the second exit have some kind of fire resistive construction to prevent smoke and Flame spread during the exiting time. Local interpretation, but there is a boca code that's going to the National Conference in Norfolk Virginia in June of this year to to address that very thing of change came out of some work that was done in the Missouri. So there may be some changes coming through on that. Okay. Thank you very much. We have some good questions. There is one more thing we need to do I guess some people are still interested in hearing the address one more time of the best route to digest in case they want a subscriber call and ask you some questions Kathy wants one of my favorite songs by Jess is at 479 Fort Road Fort in St. Paul 55102. And if you're interested in subscribing, we're not building we're not set up to do that. So if you could just send us a check for $15 for a Year's subscription or 25 for 2 years would be happy to get channel subscription list. Also there have been some questions about being built in Minneapolis. And I know we can't just go and indiscriminate Lee give out addresses there is One that we can give and that is the one in Burnsville. If you have to do you have the address for that house. The address but it's on the corner of 155th Street and Scenic Lane how to get there if they're interested. They go south on 35 West on County Road 42 South and County Road 5 West on 155th Street and I take a left and it's right on the corner and Scenic Lane in that house is open for public inspection from 1 to 4 in the afternoon on weekend Saturday and Sunday and also in the evening on Thursdays from 5 to 8. Okay fine. I just about does it for us? Thank you very much Kathy Vadnais the editor of our shelter digestion Energy report and dr. Ray Sterling of the underground Space Center at the University of Minnesota.