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On this regional public affairs program, 5th district candidates Martin Olav Sabo (DFL) and Michael Till (I-R), discuss and debate the issues. The two candidates are looking to fill the seat vacated by Donald Fraser, who sought Minnesota U.S. Senate seat.

Sabo has been speaker of the Minnesota House since 1973, and member since 1960.

Till is professor and head of the division of pediatric dentistry at the University of Minnesota.

Read the Text Transcription of the Audio.

(00:00:00) This morning is part of Minnesota public radio's effort to give voters in our region a chance to listen to candidates running for political office this fall. We present the candidates for the fifth district congressional seat. For those of you who live in the 4th congressional district that includes the greater st. Paul metropolitan area next week at this time. We will feature the candidates for the US seat in your district, and those of you who live in the first and third districts might like to know that profiles of congressional candidates from your areas will be presented on Minnesota public radio's news and public affairs program All Things Considered next week. The fifth congressional district includes all of the City of Minneapolis, except for the small portion that lies in the Third District. It also includes the communities of Hilltop Fridley Columbia Heights, and st. Anthony. The district has been represented in Congress for the last 16 years by dfl or Donald Fraser. But as most people know Fraser chose not to seek re-election to his house seat this year to run instead in the primary election for The senate seat now held by Muriel Humphrey Brazier, of course lost that race to Bob short and his house seat is now open the two candidates for the 5th District house seat rdf Eller Martin, Sabo and independent Republican candidate Michael till and they are in the studio with me this morning to discuss the issues and answer questions from listeners, the ground rules of this morning's discussion to which both candidates have agreed are these each candidate will have a maximum of five minutes in which to make an opening statement following that statement. We will open the phone lines and invite listeners to call in questions for the candidates to allow for as many questions as possible this morning. Each caller will be limited to one minute to ask his or her question each candidate will then have two minutes in which to respond to the question at the end of the program each candidate. Will then have three minutes to sum up his position. We will begin in alphabetical order with Martin Sable at the end of the program. We will reverse that order and Michael chill will go first dfl candidate Martin. Abel was 40 years old. He's married and has two children. He graduated from Augsburg College in Minneapolis. He was engaged in the insurance business prior to assuming the full-time duties of speaker of the Minnesota house in 1973. He has he has been a member of the Minnesota house since 1960. Mr. Sabel. Good morning and welcome. (00:02:18) Well, thank you Rick and I appreciate the opportunity of being here and visiting with you and voters of Fifth District about this Congressional Campaign. I am right and Sabo and I'm the dfl endorsed candidate for congress in the Fifth District a run for Congress because I believe I have the background and experience to make a contribution in the governing this country. Let me tell you a little bit about myself I've served as Rick indicated 18 years in the Minnesota house elected nine times by the people of my district to serve. I've served the past six years as Speaker of the Minnesota house and four years prior to that was selected by the members of my caucus has Already leader been involved in a variety of activities as it relates to the legislature and was elected president of the National Conference of state legislatures two years ago have served on a variety of organizations on National level served on new Coalition organization of local officials who tried to to work with the federal government in shaping federal policy. Currently I serve on the advisory Commission on intergovernmental relations presidential appointed commission that again attempts to prove the working relationship between the federal government and state and local government in the years. I've served in the legislature. I've dealt with a variety of issues that I think provide a good background for serving in the federal Congress worked extensively in the creation of our Metropolitan Council Transit Commission dealing with question of sewer problems over the years. I worked on the problems of school funding for over 10 years and heavily involved in the questions of Health and Social Service. Reading and paying for them in the state of Minnesota was early in heavily involved in creation of the Minnesota Housing Finance Agency where I think today we have one of the finest Housing Programs of any state in the country my experience and state government has been broad General. I have an interest in a variety of issues. I've been waging a campaign that's been a Grassroots campaign. We have been out to visiting with people and seeing them at their homes. I expect to have been at twenty twenty five thousand doors Myself by the time this is the election is over I run for Congress because I'm concerned and I believe that fundamentally we can do a better job of governing our self in this country. I think there is the government is important. The government has to be sensitive to the needs of people. It's a year where we often find simple slogans being advocated as the answer to complex problems. I try not to do that. I try not to pretend that I'm Santa Claus that I can provide everything that people want. Not have to pay for it. I think we're in a period of time when we need reasoned could judgment in the running a government. I think I have that background. I think I can make a contribution to the federal Congress. I ask the people of the fifth district consider my candidacy. Thank you. Okay. (00:05:16) Thank you very much Martin Sabo who is the dfl candidate for the fifth district congressional seat. The other candidates seeking the US House seat in the fifth district is independent Republican Michael till mr. Till is 44 years old. He's married and has two children. He is a dentist who received his degree in dentistry at the University of Iowa till also holds a Doctorate in Education from the University of Pittsburgh. He's presently professor and head of the division of pediatric dentistry at the University of Minnesota in Minneapolis. He also serves as director of pediatric dentistry at Hennepin County Medical Center in Minneapolis till has never held elective office. Mr. Till. Thanks for being with us this morning. (00:05:55) Thank you very much rich, and I'm very pleased to have the opportunity to These issues with your listeners this morning the November election offers the voters of the fifth district a definite choice in the person. They will elect to filled on Frasier seat. My opponent has spent his entire adult life as a machine politician in the state legislature. It's record of putting party ahead of people is clear in a recent survey by the League of Women Voters. Each candidate was asked to State his qualifications. My opponent said my commitment to the dfl party and to the state of Minnesota has been demonstrated in 18 years of Public Service. I think that it is significant that he put party first and the people of Minnesota second. I want to assure your listeners that I will always put the people first my background and experience is considerably different as a doctor and a teacher at Hennepin County Medical Center and the University of Minnesota. I have spent my entire life helping people. I have developed health programs for children and the handicapped child abuse programs and programs for the elderly. Including the senior citizens pilot dental program. I have extensive International experience having lived and worked for several years in Sweden Denmark and the Middle East and I worked extensively with the United States Congress in Washington, especially in the areas of health education and the elderly where I have served as an advisor to the health and environment subcommittee and the special committee on Aging. I believe. I have a greater understanding of the everyday problems of working tax paying people and that my experiences both in the state of Minnesota and in Washington will help me to continue the tradition of leadership and integrity that people of the fifth district expect. The message this election year is unquestioned taxpayers have had it with big government inflation and high taxes. The question. The voter must ask is which of us Mike till or my opponent will try harder to keep government spending under control. Martin and 18 years in the state legislature, you have demonstrated a clear commitment to bigger government more spending and higher taxes. For example since 1973. When you became Speaker of the House the state budget has risen from Two and a half billion dollars to over six billion dollars. This is almost a 300 percent increase At last count by the Bureau of Labor Statistics, there were two hundred and seventy nine thousand minnesotans on government payrolls. This is 24,000 more than in 1973 since 1960. When you were first elected the number of government jobs in Minnesota has risen 83 percent while a population has increased only 16% No wonder our taxes are among the highest in the country you as the most powerful member of the legislature could have prevented this from happening you have earned the reputation of being one of the biggest Spenders in the state. You have consistently voted for bigger government more governmental control of Our Lives more and more spending and naturally more and more taxes. I don't think that is what the residents of the fifth district want. I believe that Martin Sable is part of the problem. He is not the solution. In a recent survey by the League of Women Voters. Each candidate was asked what he or she thought are the most critical issues that will face the next Congress almost every one of the candidates said taxes and inflation moreover 83% of the Minnesota population says taxes and inflation are the key issue in this campaign. My opponent does not even mention taxes as in flu and inflation as being serious issues in his campaign literature. He does not in which concerns are listed know. Where is the our taxes and inflation even mentioned. I believe that you have gotten out of touch with what is going on. You either don't hear the people you aren't listening or maybe it's that you don't care. I am in favor of realistic Cuts in income taxes that are phased in over a period of three or more years. I believe this will accomplish six things for Minnesotan first. It will give Minnesota taxpayers more of their own money to save and invest in Minnesota to it will provide these taxpayers more of their own money to purchase the essentials of living such as food and housing 3, it will create more jobs in Minnesota stores and companies and thus make more taxpayers for it will contribute more tax income from these new tax payers to the government at all levels for essential services such as Aid to the elderly and for education. Five it will slow down the rate of inflation because workers produce more goods and services when they are not taxed to death and finally it will stop waste in government. I never have thought that the bigger is better approach to government is right for Minnesota the 5th District or the country and as many people has have commented over the past several weeks. That is not what we (00:10:55) want. Okay. Thank you very much. That was Michael till who is the independent Republican candidate for the fifth district congressional seat and we are discussing the issues with to the two candidates. Mr. Martin Sabo from the who's the dfl candidate and mr. Till this morning. And if you'd like to ask a question of either of the candidates you may do so now by calling us at 2 2 1 1 5 5 0 I'll give that number again. It's 2211550. We've established a couple of ground rules this morning so that we can get in as many questions as possible. First of all. We ask that questioners limit your question to one minute in length. And the response to that question will be limited to two minutes in length. And each candidate will have an opportunity to respond. Our phone lines are all open at this time. And once again the number to call to ask either candidate or both candidates a question about the issues or any issue in the Fifth District Congressional race is 2211550 and gentlemen, while we're waiting for the first callers to get on the line, I'd like to ask each of you a question. I'd like to ask each of you to respond to this one. We've heard an awful lot about tax cuts. And mr. Till you alluded to tax cuts in your talk. Your opening remarks. I'd like each of you to respond to the question of tax cuts federal tax cuts. How much money are we talking about or are you talking about and from which income groups would those funds come from and furthermore does the spending need to be cut by the same amount or not? As Governor government spending. So once again, what what what size tax cuts are you are you looking at are thinking about and what income groups do do you favor? And mr. Sabel ask you to respond to that first, please sure (00:12:49) happy to you know, the tax it's always concerned me the most property tax. I think property taxes the the least Fair of all our taxes and I think we're headed in a direction this country decreasing income taxes. They were going to result in increased property tax and I think that's unfair when the professor refers to my literature if he'd read it he'd find a reference to the property tax in in my campaign literature so relates to what happens in federal level, it's my judgment if the federal government the future decides again have the necessary Revenue to have a tax reduction. I would prefer that they look at reducing the payroll tax for Social Security. I think the fact is that that tax is both regressive and also as inflation are I think that should be top priority for change in federal level, I think. It's a clear case can be made for paying a portion of the non pension cost of social security from General Revenue as it relates to the other hand not I just simply am not going to pretend that. I'm Santa Claus that I can Advocate programs and I see other candidates who Advocate new programs that cost money at the same time. They say they're going to have to 30% federal tax cut. I think that's just totally unfair think it's a dishonest position to take it because clearly the federal government can't do that. If same time they're also going to try and move towards a balanced budget which I think is a worthy goal. (00:14:09) Okay, that was Martin Sable. Mr. Till would you like to respond to that (00:14:12) question? Yes, I would first like to just make a comment about the the property taxes and then get into the the specifics of the question. I frequently comes up that property taxes are low in Minnesota, but I would just like to ask the listeners to perform the experiment of getting out their records and comparing their property taxes in 1973. And Eight and see just exactly what has happened to their property taxes. And I think you'll find in most instances. They have gone up just the other night and I too have been spending a good deal of time out meeting the people I talked to a gentleman who works in a factory and he told me that he has worked in a factory for over 20 years basically at the same job with the normal increments of increases in Pay yet the home that he built 20 years ago. He paid four hundred dollars a year in taxes. He now has paying twenty eight hundred dollars a year and he was saying to me where it's all this business about property taxes being reduced in Minnesota. He had not seen the effect of it. I think that we can realistically reduce our federal taxes are federal income taxes. And I think that this can be done without cutting vital services and I would simply point out that 63% of the population agrees with me on that point according to a recent survey published in Time Magazine the point that I want to emphasize is that We have reached a point in this country where taxes have become too high. The next Congress is going to have to deal significantly with the issue. I believe that I am in tune with what the people are asking and I can assure your listeners that I will make every effort possible to work realistically for tax reduction. (00:15:51) And that was Michael till the time now is 17 and a half minutes past 10:00 o'clock and you were listening to a discussion of the issues in the Fifth District Congressional race, the 5th District covering most of the City of Minneapolis and a couple of adjoining suburbs and with me in the studio this morning are independent Republican candidate Michael till and dfl candidate Martin Sable. If you have a question for either or both of them, please call us at 2 2 1 1 5 5 0 that's the Twin Cities number. There is no charge to call it 2211550 and the phone lines are still open. So if you want to get directly to a candidate who may be representing you in Congress and who may be a whole lot harder to reach in three or four months from now, give us a call right now and ask a question gentlemen while we're waiting for All I like to ask another question and that is that you were both hoping to represent a Metropolitan District and I'm wondering if you have any recommended legislation or changes in legislation that would affect large cities like Minneapolis. And and what's more I'm interested in knowing if you favor the continued use of federal revenue sharing or expanding that and I'll go to mr. Till first on (00:17:02) that one. Yes. I have very definite ideas on that. I think that are large metropolitan areas are absolutely necessary to the country. So I am strongly in favor of programs that will allow the maintenance of the Vitality of our system of our large cities. So yes, I am in favor of Revenue sharing programs and of taxpayers money from Minneapolis and the 5th District being returned to Minneapolis for the betterment of the fifth district from Minneapolis, Fridley Columbia. It's in all of the areas in the in the fifth district. Of course, certainly that will be given top priority. My position is that the neighborhoods have been absolutely vital to our to our development and I would strongly want to incorporate mechanisms. Whereby we can keep our neighborhoods absolutely as dynamic as I think they can be one of the ways in which we can do. This is by keeping our neighborhood schools open almost all neighborhoods center around their schools and their churches and I think that this is important. We do have a situation in the Fifth District where population is or School population is declining we have to think much more creatively of mechanisms. Whereby we can keep our schools open. I think legislation is is available to do this during the time that I worked in Washington. I was involved in legislation and actually wrote bill that were introduced that would recycle our schools and keep them open. I'm very Out of the fact that one of the last things before he died Senator Humphrey introduced very comparable legislation based on the legislation that I had worked with that would accomplish the exactly that so yes, we have to keep our neighborhoods vital in our City's vital. (00:18:52) Okay. Mr. Sabo federal revenue sharing should it continue for the city's? (00:18:55) Yes, and I was heavily involved in lobbying for its reenactment. The last time testified in front of congressional committees was involved with meetings with Congressional leadership of the president in conjunction with other state legislators and other representatives of local government and a strong supporter revenue-sharing clearly. It should continue that is not the answer loans the promise of cities or other types of funds that come to the city Community Development Fund Social Service funds Title 20 the come to the county frankly. One of our problems has been that title 20 funds have been frozen for many years. And so there was no increased federal funds coming to Minnesota that starting to ease a little bit right now Community Development funds are being cut back and there is not good coordination. In the use of Community Development Fund relationship Social Service. Once I think there is a federal role there in part of the problem is the way the federal programs are structured name and my judgment need to be changed to so we can more adequately need meet the needs of our cities. (00:19:54) Okay. Thank you very much dfl candidate Martin Sable 22 minutes now past 10 o'clock. And this is supposed to be at least a phone in program where listeners can call in and ask questions of Fifth District congressional candidates Michael till and Martin Sable. The number to call is to to 11550. The number again is to to 11550 and we're still waiting for the first call. Mr. Sabo this I imagine is a question that you've been asked a lot in your door-knocking campaign and and I am interested in knowing to there is of course a lot of question over the support of the candidate who won the primary election over Don Fraser. Last month and I am wondering and I mentioned listeners are wondering to do you support Robert short and his effort for the four-year senate seat (00:20:46) Well, I was a strong supporter done Fraser in the primary. I was very very disappointed that he did not win that primary. Obviously. He did not miss Fraser was the endorsed candidate of the party at this point. There is no party endorsed candidate and I'm simply running my own campaign and the stir shorts running his own campaign and and who they vote for his decision that each individual voter has to (00:21:10) decide. Okay. Mr. Till. Do you have anything to say about that? No, I don't believe something. Okay. Okay. I'm going to give out the phone number one more time to to 11550 do either of you favor tax credits for families who are paying for college tuition and I'll ask you that mr. Till. (00:21:28) Yeah, we have two different situations relative to tax credits that have received a lot of attention lately in regard to higher education. Yes. I very definitely Leave favor tax credits because I believe that an individual studying in college or in vocational school. Any post High School activity should be able to study what he or she wishes and many times. The availability of education is not equal and just to give you an example if one wants to be a veterinary. There are only 16 schools in the United States where one could study that particular area. There are many other examples like this many times an individual is forced to go to a private school and pay very high tuition where his neighbor across the river maybe in a state school. So yes, I think that it is appropriate to allow either tax credits some form of scholarship programs grant-in-aid programs work study programs. These are all appropriate areas for the federal government to be involved in I think we have to keep in mind that we are making an investment in the in the future and that being the case very definitely the Federal. To be involved with higher educational (00:22:39) level. Okay. Mr. Sabo. (00:22:41) I've been a strong supporter, but these scholarship Grant in aid program that we have in this state and when the professor complains about how the size of increase in our budget and one area that's gone up very substantially is increasing in the scholarship grant and aid program to assure that students can go on to higher education regardless of their financial means of Minnesota. My preference is to expand the eligibility for scholarships grants and needs both on the state and federal level. I prefer that to the tax credit. That's a gets more fair and more Equitable. (00:23:09) Okay. Thank you. Mr. Sabel. I just got a note from our engineer, which says that at least one listener has gotten a busy signal when calling 1550 the number we've been giving out. So there may be some technical problem here. So I'm going to switch over and we're going to give another number out and the number to call if you want to ask either or both candidates from the fifth congressional district or question. This morning is 221 1502 211500. We'll see if that number works now. I'll give it again to 2115. 0 0 we if you've been trying to get through and been getting a busy signal or some other kind of reaction to your phone call. We apologize and and hope you can get through now. We're in the studio this morning with dfl candidate Martin Sabo and independent Republican candidate Michael till and they are both running for the fifth district congressional seat. And I believe we just may have our first question you're on the line. Go ahead. Can you hear me? And if you can go ahead with your (00:24:03) question? (00:24:09) I see a blinking light here, but I don't hear anything in my headphones around the speaker. I'm hoping though. Well, we're going to have to pass up on that one at least for the time being while we're waiting. Once again, I'll give the number it's two to one 1502 211500 and I'm going to look down the list of questions that I prepared for myself this morning and ask each of you this question. And that is do you favor national health insurance. There's been a good deal of discussion about it and along with that question. What about Federal limits on medical prices and I think I'll start with you this time. Mr. Sabel. (00:24:47) I believe we clearly need a federal health policy than involves several things and needed means trying to improve our delivery system. It means keeping control and costs a you know, if we talk about inflation in health care costs is one that's gone up much quicker than the rate of normal inflation's agree that we can lower our health care costs in this country. We make a major inroad into the problem of inflation. I favor a nationally directed type of health insurance for the sing. Country. I think there are several gaps that are in our system today. I think we have to build on what exists and we have to move in a major way to provide on a national basis is system. Make sure that everyone can get decent health care. I don't think I think it just simply wrong when a person doesn't get health care because they can't afford it. And so I think it's a major problem. I think it needs to be addressed and has to be addressed on a national level. (00:25:42) Would you favor the plan that's been put forth by Senator Kennedy. (00:25:46) Well, we're still waiting to see the particulars of that. I've read a newspaper accounts. They're rather sketchy my understanding Senator Kennedy is still working on putting the finishing touches on his plan. So it's not clear in detail yet. I think he's moving in the right direction. I think he's moving into system where he recognizes were existing Federal programs. Are he recognizes that were existing Large Group Insurance exists, and he's going to build on that making sure that's good group Insurance, then he's To fill the gap for those people who may not work for someone who has good group Insurance may be self-employed can't afford to buy individual policy in the people are in now the labor market which are millions of people in this country. My judgment is that Senator Kennedy's clearly headed in the right direction. Okay? (00:26:34) Mr. Sabel. Mr. Till your response to the question about national health (00:26:37) insurance. I would first like to compliment Martin for coming around to what I think is a more reasonable position from the national health insurance that he has advocated in the past. I am in favor of a catastrophic health insurance program because I don't believe that it is right or appropriate under any circumstances that a person should go broke because of the unfortunate situation of becoming ill having a long-term illness suffering an accident and so forth. So I think that a catastrophic health insurance program certainly is appropriate. I don't believe it is appropriate. However for the federal government to get into the complete health insurance business now, we frequently hear that there are 19 18 or 19 million people who are outside of the medical mainstream and this is true and it's a significant number but at the same time this implies this is less than 10% of the population. Meaning that there are approximately 210 million who are receiving health care where we should be placing. Our emphasis is bringing the people who are outside of the medical mainstream in so that everyone does have adequate health insurance or health care available to them, but I don't think completely throwing out the current medical and Healthcare delivery system is going to be the answer to the problem. We definitely should answer or we should build on what is here and build on what is good. And we do have a good high standard of Health in this country. And that's what I favor if I can just take one additional moment to make a comment since you brought up the the Kennedy built. If you are watching on television recently when mr. Kennedy and dr. salmon of the American Medical Association were having a rather Lively exchange during one of the hearings. Basically they were shouting at each other one person was saying you don't know this and the other person you don't know that and so on and made very interesting viewing but it didn't accomplish anything and this is what's what's wrong. I think with our Congress right now, we need to have persons and again such as myself who have the the health background who can understand problems from the point of view of the patient because I've been treating patients all of my life from the point of view of the healthcare delivery because I happen to be one and also from the point of view of one who knows the legislative political and fiscal realities. This is when we're going to get good health Healthcare delivery when everybody starts talking instead of shouting at each other. (00:29:05) Okay, independent Republican candidate for the fifth congressional seat. Michael till also in the studio with me is dfl candidate Martin Sable. And since the response is got going to that last question the On lines in front of me the phone set has started to light up and blink. And so it appears that there are at least a few callers on the line and we apologize to all of you who try to get through earlier. Apparently we were having some technical problems, but now we'll go to the first caller this morning and we ask that you please limit your question to a minute in length. Good morning. You're on the air. Yes. Good morning. Do you have a question for either or both of the (00:29:37) candidates? I would like to know. Propose to do about educating themselves in the public about the magnitude of the energy crisis and what they propose to do about alleviating the problems with energy Supply. (00:29:55) Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Mr. Sabel. Would you like to take that one (00:29:59) first? Sure. I think you raised the most important issue that we face in this country. Frankly my opponents, right? I didn't listen inflation. Number one and drums listing issues. I listed energy and my judgment of the energy issue has more to do with inflation than any other issue. We face in this country clearly. It was caused by the dramatic increase in World oil prices the massive export of American dollars abroad. I think it's clear. We have to move in a massive Wade research and development of alternative energy resources to oil and gas. I think this is a clear Federal responsibility more so than state or federal. I think we have to continue to emphasize conservation. I think in the short run clearly good conservation policy in this country in a more impact on our total supply of the most anything else while in the long term. We work on on developing Alternatives. And when I speak of Alternatives, I don't mean the current use of nuclear energy. I think that is frightening. I think we have to move towards other sources of energy that's clear major federal responsibility. (00:31:09) Okay dfl candidate Martin Sabo independent Republican candidate Michael till (00:31:13) well, I certainly agree that energy is one of the major problems and we have reached in my opinion crisis proportions in our energy situation. I think that the sooner that the United States can become energy independent the better off this country will be and I certainly will place top priority on that in the event of my election and relative to to education of the people in energy. I think that this is going to take a great deal of effort, but I certainly think that it is Accomplishable certainly we have to begin to conserve as rapidly as possible and I'm a full support of programs that will allow people to insulate their homes. I'm in support of programs that will conserve our gas and oil such as the 55 mile an hour speed limit and so on and definitely we have to have a federal policy aimed at developing alternate energy sources and these I include solar energy wind energy. There's very definite breakthroughs in harnessing see energy through waves, we can use our coal much more effectively right here in Minnesota. We have a very definite resource with all of the the Pete. We have 25% of the usable Pete in the United States right here in Minnesota. We certainly should be we should be using that as much as possible. And then of course we do come to the to the situation of nuclear energy and I think all of us are very concerned and very afraid of this situation of nuclear waste but there have been recent breakthroughs In research that I might add have been supported both by Private Industry and by the federal government, which I think is a very excellent way to go Princeton University has come up with a procedure of Newt of developing nuclear energy using seawater as the natural resource that does not produce nuclear waste. I think this is a step in the right direction. And from what I have been able to read about the situation it will be available within the next 20 to 25 years. I think that definitely we have to have strong research in all of the alternate sources of energy so that this country becomes energy independent. (00:33:18) Okay. Thank you very much. We have another caller on the line. Go ahead with your question. Please (00:33:23) question for mr. Sabel. (00:33:25) Go ahead. He's listening. (00:33:26) Okay, I would like, mr. Sabel to possibly explain in a rather. Statement now why the dfl Eric is so reluctant to release the transcripts from the upper of the working papers. They should say from the upper Great Lakes Regional Commission study, especially now that Senator Anderson has indicated that he's all in favor of their release seems to me that since mr. Coleman and the whole are key of the dfl is extremely reluctant to have this information released even after a court order has been given to release these papers the legislative audit chairman. I forget his name was willing to go to jail rather than have the contents of these documents made public and in light of this, how can mr. Coleman Presume to represent the people of Minnesota in an effective manner in Washington when he won't least papers that have been demanded by a court of (00:34:39) law. Okay. Thanks for your question. Mr. (00:34:41) Sabel happy to respond the issue involved. Let me let me just go a little background. We have a very professional audit staff that works for the legislative auditor used to be the public examiner. It is now the legislative auditor who regularly do audits of All State agencies University of Minnesota and state-run institutions state auditor. Does it for local governments exist for a long time in clearly is a highly professional staff. They do their work and they do it. Well the practice in Minnesota and throughout the country for public Auditors is that they do their studies. They release a reports and those are accessible and available to everyone but it's also normal auditing process that the working papers. Use in the process of doing their audits are not released that has been practiced in Minnesota forever. It's the same practices followed by a federal Auditors and public Auditors throughout the country. In this case the head of the staff person who is our professional auditor was asked after his report was released if he would release the working papers and he said no as he wouldn't any other Case by a newspaper person and that person then challenged him in court and that is still proceeding in court. I think it it's an important case as it relates to audits. If clearly if the working papers are released in this case, then they should be released in all cases that affect audits. It's a judgment of the professional otters Auditors that would substantially hamper their ability to do good Audits. And so the reason for the reluctance of the audit commission to release the papers relate to basically to our task of doing good Audits and state of Minnesota and it establishes. Very important president precedent not only for this audits but all audits. Okay, so you support (00:36:31) their position? Yes, okay. Mr. Till. (00:36:34) I'd like to make a comment on that because I believe that the that the audit commission report in its entirety should be released and quite frankly. I think that this is just another typical example of the arrogance of power that comes with being in power for for the long term. I question very seriously why 279 Pages out of several volumes, I think something like 25 volumes are being withheld and it certainly is indicative of the fact that there must be something in those 279 pages that would prove embarrassing to the to the dfl party now relative to whether or not it is normal legislative procedure. I think that the most important comment on this is that the legislative auditor has said that he is not answerable to the people of Minnesota. He is answerable to the state legislature therefore he Doesn't have to release anything without legislative approval and I would simply point out that my opponent is Speaker of the House would be in a position to release these papers. He has referred to himself in in previous meetings as the the second most powerful person in the state of Minnesota given this power and given his position on the state legislature. It certainly would seem (00:37:48) appropriate, you know, the fact is we're following the normal auditing process that's been followed for years and state of Minnesota. We're following the normal auditing process. It's followed by federal Auditors the auditing process that's followed by Auditors throughout the country. We may know change from that in in our commitment is to keep a good honest auditing process going on in the state that's effective and I think that's important. But if we want to talk about audit reports, I'd suggest Professor read the audit report on the University of Minnesota because they're we run into a different type of problem. This one entire report is released the Auditors had access to records The federal folks working on a same type of investigation had access to all the working papers, but when we out at the University of Minnesota, the auditor can't even get the records what the Private Practice income and expenses are of the people who are involved in private medical practice and dental practice the University of Minnesota. That's a much more serious problem. Now, I'd suggest Professor go back to University and make those records available to State Legislative auditor. Mr. Tillman. (00:38:54) Number one. I think that that is a totally irrelevant situation. We're talking about the audit commission and that's what the gentleman asked in the question. What is the status of the release of the audit Commission of the upper Great Lakes Regional Commission 279 pages are being held back from the public. There have been great implications in the the press that this is because of simple political manipulation. I don't think that we need to get into anything other than the fact that this is the situation the my opponent would have the opportunity. Due to release this so that the people could read they could judge they could make their own decision in an appropriate amount of time prior to the November election. I think that that would be what openness in government is all about and I certainly would hope that that will be the case (00:39:41) independent Republican candidate for the fifth district congressional seat Michael till and along with him in the studio. This morning is dfl candidate Martin Sabo. I'm rich diekman. The time is 18 minutes now before 11 o'clock, and we have a number of listeners still on the line with questions and we'll go to another one now. Good morning. We're listening for your question. (00:40:27) The question is is there an element of greed involved in this outcry? And is there an element of disregard for the real needs of the poor who have no other place to go than government for their for need who can't support themselves? For example? (00:40:47) Okay. Thanks for your question. Mr. Sabel. (00:40:50) I don't want to begin to analyze the motivations for we're different people come at different positions. I think the fact is a basic governmental and services are important to a lots and lots of people in this country. And I think it's just deceitful to say that we can somehow make a 30% cut in federal federal income tax and have that not affect the expenditure for any program. I think it's clear that if we had a massive reduction in federal outlay the poor people the popo people least able to take care of themselves in this country would be those that would be hurt the most. I've also listen to our conversation this morning. My opponent and I are both agreed we should More money spent on health care we both agreed to there should be more money spent energy. We've talked about more funds going into education and how and then I say I say that at the same time good conscience. I can't promise the people I'm going to have a 30% cut. We've heard a lot of (00:41:43) adjectives thrown around this morning irresponsible dishonest deceitful. You've left out stupid which you brought up the other night when anybody talks about tax cuts, I would simply point out to you that 83% of the population of Minnesota are saying that we have had enough we need to have tax cuts. So if I am being irresponsible dishonest deceitful and stupid for saying that I will try as a representative to represent the views of the people to get government costs under control to get taxes under control if that is being irresponsible dishonest deceitful and stupid and I'm very pleased to plead guilty if I can continue. I definitely feel that we can cut taxes and I too am committed to our needed Social Services. We certainly need to be able to Care of our poor our elderly and are handicapped and I would say that I am much more committed to those programs than my opponent because any time that he talks about tax reduction. He says that that it is these programs that are going to be that are going to suffer. My position is that it won't be these programs that are going to suffer. These are the programs that we need. But we need to get our inflation under control. I would go after the bureaucracy. I would go after waste in government. I would make sure that we aren't spending our money unnecessarily so that we can make sure that are needed vital social programs can be continued. I won't punish people. (00:42:59) I'm going to let you respond and I'll let him respond to your (00:43:01) response. You know, I can accept a position if somebody says they want to cut federal income taxes by 30% and want to make according cut in federal out light. That's that's an acceptable position. I disagree with it, but I find just totally objectionable are the people who run around as candidates and our everything to everybody there for every program say yes to the questions involving more outlay a federal funds the same. I'm then switch over and say we're big Santa Claus. It isn't going to cost anybody anything that just deceitful. You know, I don't know who's for wasting government. I most certainly am not I think one has to work very hard at the process of making government work efficiently and the other hand to pretend we can eliminate just Masa waste that will result in a 30 percent tax cut just clearly is not the case Okay. Mr. Tim. Yeah, I would like to respond to that. (00:43:54) I think that mr. Sabel doesn't understand the fact that a tax cut does not have necessarily have to be one. That is the comes all in one year the tax cut proposals that I believe are reasonable are those that have been that would be intended to be phased in gradually over a period of time. This will give the federal government the opportunity for advanced planning first to eliminate waste to evaluate programs. And if I could just make a mention there I am in strong favor of what is known as Sunset legislation. Sunset legislation doesn't mean the automatic elimination of programs. It simply means that federally funded tax supported programs should come under very close review very close scrutiny. So that those that are proven to be necessary should be continued and in certain instances even expanded by the same token those that have outlived their usefulness those that are not producing obviously should be reduced or or eliminate it altogether. This is what I'm talking about by a phased-in tax reduction program. It will take hard work and I'm willing to put up with that work. (00:44:58) Okay. We have a number of very patient listeners who are still on the line and we're going to go to another one right now. Good morning. We're listening for your question. (00:45:04) Thank you. My question was answered in part by the response to the previous one, but I'd like to ask you anyway, I'd like to ask both candidates how they view the importance of increasing national debt and increase money at puts in circulation and exacerbating inflation. For mr. Till in particular how he justifies is apparently contradictory position on reducing inflation while reducing federal taxes the time when the government is printing money to pay its bills. (00:45:29) Okay. Thanks for your question. And since that was directed more at you. I'll let you respond. Mr. (00:45:33) Tilford. Okay, whether or not tax reduction will cause inflation depends upon which economists one talks to certainly in the very short term and I emphasize very short term tax reduction would provide more money to the to the individuals to spend this would cause a short-term inflationary period as it did in 1963 under John Kennedy when he instituted very similar tax cuts to what is being proposed right now in the long term. However, it was found that the amount of tax revenue not necessarily income tax, but tax revenue through sales taxes excise taxes corporate taxes due to the expanding economy that resulted from income tax. It actually brought the federal government a considerable amount more tax revenue. (00:46:25) Okay, mr. Sabo. (00:46:27) Well, here's what businessweek had to say about the camp Roth proposal which my opponent is an advocate of and business week is hardly a liberal publication sets of Camp Roth proposal would be completely irresponsible way or to approach the federal budget problem would touch off and inflationary explosion that would wreck the country and impoverish everyone on a fixed income that may actually even be an overstatement. I think budget deficit has some impact on inflation. I think clearly can process would would fuel it. I think that's that's clear and I think in personally I think the federal Congress is moving in the right direction in trying to reduce the federal deficit as they did this year. (00:47:08) Okay. Thanks. Mr. Sabel. Another question from a listener. Go ahead. We're listening for your question. Good morning. (00:47:13) Yes. (00:47:23) Okay. Thank you. (00:47:26) Property taxes in Minnesota are not a federal problem. That's a that's a problem that should be addressed in appropriately should be addressed by the by the state legislature. So I don't believe that it is appropriate for me as a federal congressmen to start talking about mechanisms, whereby I would reduce property taxes in the state. However, it certainly be incumbent upon me as the federal congressmen to work as closely as I possibly could with the state legislature in order that property taxes can be reduced and I quite frankly think that they are too high for this reason. I do Advocate an income tax reduction so that people will have the a greater amount of their own earnings available for their for their own use and on that basis then one can turn to the to the state legislature and make the decision as to whether or not it is necessary within the in the light of the federal income tax reduction that I have advocated. The property tax is also should be increased decreased or whatever the situation maybe mr. Sabel (00:48:31) there clearly is a relationship between what happens with federal policy and what happens local property tax pattern has been when federal government moves back one of the areas where they move back is in their grants and Aid to local and state government that simply Force has increased expenditures on the state and local level when it occurs on the local level that increases the property tax revenue sharing it was a method of both of providing some additional dollars for services, but also hit impact in reducing property taxes in this country same is true Social Service funding is the same as true Community Development funding and go on and on as matter of fact in the professor's own School Dentistry at the University of Minnesota. Our state funds have more than doubled since 1973 $450,000 of that this year comes about because the reduction in federal funds. So the state had to pick up those fonts. In my understanding is his school is coming in next year for increased State appropriation because of it again reduced federal federal dollars coming to that school University the same pattern can hold equally true for local government to have a direct impact on property tax question. (00:49:42) Thank you Martin Sable. We have eight minutes now before 11 o'clock and still a couple of listeners on the line. We're listening for your question. Go ahead (00:50:05) balance of payments deficit produced by the importation of petroleum. I would like to know what specifically They would support the legislation to a reduce our dependence on foreign energy be to increase conservation in this country and see what they would do to stimulate production of energy if that needs to be necessary When A and D if any of the year to be mad, (00:50:39) alright a three-part question and I'll let mr. Sabo take this one first. (00:50:43) I'll see if I can remember all parts. I I think conservation is important. I've always thought our state housing program was one of the best energy bills we passed because it provided money for rehabbing housing. I think there's good deal of money to be saved by simply making our house has more energy efficient. I think clearly we have to move and research and development of alternative energy resources and what that answer is going to be in which is the best option for the future. I don't think we know at this point. I think we have to continue Research and development in a variety of sources may be solar and maybe the development of agricultural waste products of agricultural products themselves. Those are all potentials that we have to move in a major way to make sure that they get developed. I don't think it's a problem that's going to be solved very quickly and that's why conservation such as making our homes more efficient our cars more efficient Motors generally more efficient is the I think has the biggest gain for us in the media or in the short run as a relates to developing other sources. I was not an advocate of gas deregulation as my opponent was I think that's going to be inflationary going to increase the dollars going to already rich oil companies five of the top ten companies in this country are are already oil companies. In fact is that they have immense capital on hand X on his 4.4 billion dollars on hand as of March 31st, and I don't think that's going to result in additional gas and oil being developed in this country. (00:52:13) Okay, thank you. Mr. Sabel. Mr. Till (00:52:16) I would definitely like to respond to that because I think that the federal government is going to have to place top priority on establishing an energy policy that as quickly as possible is going to get this country independent. I think that the listener brings up a very definite point that we can't continue to pour money overseas for sources of energy. Certainly. The short term conservation is the way to go and coming up with programs that will motivate conservation very definitely should be supported at the at the federal level. The same thing is true with the alternate sources programs of solar wind see Power and and so on and definitely I would be in favor of legislation that would allow individuals who can convert to solar energy to wind energy to help them to help them to do so, I don't have as much distrust of the deregulation as my opponent. Simply point to the fact that there is probably no more of a regulated industry than the airline industry yet in recent years. The airline fares have been deregulated and look what we have what we have we can now fly from Los Angeles to New York for the same price that we could in 1935. So certainly simply the slogan of deregulation causes inflation is not proven in other Industries. I see no reason that it should be necessarily proven in the oil industry as well. The federal government always has the availability of windfall profits taxes so that if it can be shown that the freeing up of capital for further exploration is causing unnecessary profits. There are ways of getting at these at these (00:53:56) situations. Okay gentlemen, it's three and a half minutes before 11 o'clock and we if we're going to get any sort of closing statements in at all and they're going to be shorter than we said they would be we'd better start with them now and so as we said at the beginning of the broadcast, mr. Till would have first go around at the end and with the just a little More than three minutes that means that each of you will have about a minute to a minute and a half. So try and keep it short (00:54:18) mr. Till. Okay. Thank you very much. I've enjoyed being here this morning as we've pointed out. I think that the people of Minnesota are tired of Politics as Usual and I think that my opponent absolutely has to share in the blame of this situation if he's recognized that the most powerful person in the Minnesota Legislature. I think that he should exercise his responsibility and Leadership, but he simply plays politics. He killed the election bill that would have allowed the Minnesota voters to vote for their for their Senators. He talks about openness in government yet. We have the legislative audit commission and my opponent continues to take 48 dollars a day when he's campaigning full-time and if he can be out knocking on 20,000 homes, obviously, that's a full-time occupation yet. He has paid forty eight dollars a day in expense money over and above his salary in order to while he was campaigning I to and worked for the state. I am on full leave of absence. I'm Accepting money during this time. I think this is a significant campaign issue. Thank you very much. (00:55:18) Okay, that was the independent Republican candidate for the fifth congressional seat in Minnesota Martin Sabo the dfl candidate for that seat will now make his closing (00:55:27) remarks. Thank you. And I appreciate this opportunity and Professor. I perfectly willing to trade salaries with you for the year. I'd come out way ahead. I simply ask the people of the fifth district for their consideration their vote November 7. I have promised one thing that they'll work hard. I'll listen to the people and I'll try to make good judgment and I won't over-promised (00:55:49) since he referred to my salary. I'd like to make one point we're not talking about what One is paid for what one the job one is doing we're being paid. We're talking about being paid for the job that you're not doing. (00:55:59) I do my job, sir. (00:56:01) All right, we have a minute and a half and that concludes our program and note has been passed along to meet it indicates that for those of you who did not get through two candidates this morning. You might want to call their offices. Candidates offices in the Twin Cities to ask them or their campaign workers questions that you did not get get to answer I get to ask and have answered this morning. It's one minute now before 11 o'clock and we'll pass on some weather information to you the forecast for our region for today variable cloudiness today tonight and Sunday with a slight chance of showers in the Northwest today over the north tonight and over the state by Sunday. It will be colder in the Northwest today and much colder over the entire State tonight and tomorrow the highs today should range from near 60 in the Northwest to the upper 70s in the Southeast and the lows tonight should range from the upper 20s to the low 40s highs on Sunday are expected to range from the upper 30s to the mid 50's one invite you to stay tuned for voices in the wind which follows in just a moment or so, and I also want to thank Susan bonello for handling phone traffic Forest this morning and to Steve Tibbetts who is the engineer of the day, and I also want to thank the two candidates This is Minnesota Public Radio a listener-supported service.


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