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Bruce Vento, Minnesota representative from the 4th District (DFL); Ed Zabinsky of the Boundary Waters Conservation Alliance; and Steve Payne of the Duluth Wilderness Society discuss the BWCA bill that passed the U.S. Congress, and the divergent views of the use and protection of BWCA.

Read the Text Transcription of the Audio.

(00:00:00) One of the most controversial pieces of legislation at least for our area is the Boundary Waters canoe area Bill the BWC a bill is a compromise. It is perhaps closest to a bill authored by Senator Wendell Anderson. He was assisted by Ali attorney. Ron walls also assisted by Charles Dayton. Mr. Walz represented a number of Northeastern Minnesota residents who oppose further restrictions on the BWC a. Mr. Dayton represented the views of a number of people who oppose mining logging and motorized vehicles in the area today at a nun. Midday will hear from four people including two members of Congress who have played key roles in the BWC a controversy with us in st. Paul is Congressman Bruce vento the fourth district who worked for passage of the compromise legislation and also with us is Congressman James Oberstar who wanted to postpone BWC a legislation joining us in Duluth is Ed's been ski of The Boundary Waters Conservation Alliance and Steve Payne of Duluth from the Wilderness Society the legislation briefly allows the use of In some areas of the BWC a but the use will be further restricted in the near future Mining and logging will be forbidden in the area snowmobile use will be allowed for a few years. Also with us today in Duluth is mpr's Allen. Cyril who has been following the course of the BWC BWC a legislation Alan. (00:01:19) Thank you Dan. As you mentioned here in the studio is in Duluth Steve Payne of the Wilderness society and Ed's have been ski of The Boundary Waters Conservation Alliance want to thank both of you gentlemen for joining us here today, I guess first of all, since there are some time constraints on the two congressmen who have joined us if we could ask a couple of questions of Congressman Jim Oberstar and of Congressman Bruce vento, if either of you gentlemen would like to field a general question telling us of the last days in Washington, what were some of the political compromises and philosophical compromises that had to be (00:01:55) made we'll put that first two congressmen vento's in a st. Paul Studio Talent. Well, there were no political compromises made the last few days on the legislation that were considering I think in other legislation that did occur because the Press of time and I think it's precisely that time frame that permits and really forces decisions upon upon us and provides for Effective and efficient use of our time this issue like many others had been studied over a long period of the 95th session and the conclusion of those issues at the end of a session is as a regularly occurring event. We were faced with serious problems in terms of getting this considered before the house because of the the nature of other business that was there the tax legislation the energy legislation many comprehensive proposals that were considered some 200 and number Congressman vento before we give Alan a chance to put another question to you. I wanted to jump in at that point. What were some of the behind-the-scenes activities that led up to this compromise BWC a legislation we know Example that attorney Dayton was involved with it as was mr. Walsh from Ali how active was the compromising the negotiating at the end there? Well, of course this this agreement between walls and Dayton occurred previously and before action was taken in the Senate so that agreement had been made and of course action finally took place Monday with some small changes in the Senate language, the our staffs had been working with Senator Anderson staff. So the final product we had the opportunity to work on it to to raise questions about it to resolve issues between the two bodies. I want to ask you congressman vento and then I want to turn it back to Alan and his guests in Duluth whether or not you think there will be a great number of jobs lost as a result of this compromise legislation in the BWC a and if not a great number, do you have any idea how many? Jobs will be lost. I don't think that they'll be any jobs lost the provisions of this bill respond to the concerns about job loss or raised early on in fact the Superior National Forest under this legislation with the intensity. I'd forestry management will indeed produce more soft wood and more products for which will produce jobs in that area. The money is the key question here. Those resources have been available and have not been managed properly. The money in this bill will provide the opportunity to do that. We're really talking about in this instance in terms of the resorts in terms of local use motorized use we're talking about changing the the nature of those businesses to some extent I'll all the resorts that are on lakes which are contiguous with the BWC a continue to have the opportunity to use to use motors. I know mr. Szalinski and mr. Payne will certainly have something to say about your observations on that point of job loss. And I know you're pressed for time to I want to put another question to you about the political. Stations of your support of the BWC a legislation one of your constituents been telling you now that you're back in Minnesota granted Euros southern Minnesota Congressman more or less. Have you been getting a lot of criticism for your position? Well, it's it's mixed we have people that are concerned. I think that most of them are satisfied that this is a fair compromise that's been put forth. I think that as I've been able to explain it to them. Some people are emotional about it in my district and other areas of the state. We hope that and I would plead for them to look at the specifics of the legislation. We spent almost two years working on this it is not something that was brought about where one side one all of the arguments for the other side, but I think that's really what I had started out to do in the beginning is to try to bring some resolution something that's been in courts something that has been the subject of administrative rulings which have been controversial since 1964 and really since the turn of the century we will be hearing more from you and Congressman Oberstar will be joining us in just a few minutes. And I'll turn it back to you and your guests in northern Minnesota who no doubt have reaction to What mr. Van dough has been (00:06:05) saying. Yes, Dan. I think it's a Penske wants to make a comment about the about Congressman vento's suggestion that the bill will not affect the Healy area of the Grand Marais area economies very much. Well, I think at this point it's it's difficult to say exactly how many jobs will be lost in terms of specific numbers or I think we probably should recognize that there will be an obvious impact on Resorts and their change of business as well. They may be able to adapt some of them will adapt but others because of the nature of their business the nature of their clientele will not be able to adapt to the change in in use patterns of these legs. Well, they made sure that the Lakes contiguous as mr. Ventura called it to the on the beat of the BWC will be motorized. There are certain results. Who send their people to Lakes not outside the BWC a and also inside the BWC in these these results will be affected as well these not all these places were taken care of by this bill. (00:07:15) Alan I'm curious about mr. Zubin skis comments Congressman vento there are some special Provisions are there not for Resort owners and their guests in the BWC a well. Yes. There are there are Provisions for instance for guests not to have permits as long as they're staying on the peripheral Lakes. There are Provisions for transition to a type of business, which is non motorized related. There is a Provisions finally for a variety of different assistance for Resort has that just can't find their means to start you have to remember that this area use of this area has increased dramatically. It's the most extensively used Wilderness the Wilderness system over a million visitor days a year. If someone drives a car up there they're going to stop and really they're going to stop other places where they're going for motorized or non-motorized use. If we don't preserve this resource the unique qualities of this resource the the the interest in people to participate and utilize it will be diminished markedly. So it really did. His benefactors of this will be those that depend upon recreational use in that area for their livelihood and of course to the local residents who value the Wilderness qualities of this area and I suspected mr. Sieminski is waiting to comment on that Ed. Do you think that the special concessions the provisions will do anything to to serve the future business of the resort area the resort owners in the area or is it not going to be enough? I (00:08:40) don't think it'll be enough and know in terms of thing that we don't preserve this resource the local people won't receive the benefits I do now. I think the resource has been preserved for the last 14 years people have used this area with motors of the last, you know, 20 30 years. There is still treasure as a national resource and has been used with motors in this area is unique not only because it's different in terms of the geography and topography, but it's Unique to in the way. It's been able to be used and yet preserved in its Wilderness State. I think the fact that you Erase Motors on another eighty hundred Lakes. I don't think that's preserving the area anymore that's been preserved over the last 14 years since the 1964 Wilderness act been in effect. (00:09:25) Ed will the point I want to follow up on and that is will the special concessions as you say you think they will not be enough to help the resort owners. What about the the use of lakes just around the BWC a area that are not affected by restrictions on motorboating. Are there a fair number of Resort owners who won't be able to benefit from that? (00:09:44) Well, there are a few lakes and on the peripheral periphery of the BWC a of course, but a lot of these Lakes are already developed with private cabins in the few who Resorts and the amount of Youth on these Lakes as well as Lakes inside the BWC a had can reach a certain limit and beyond that there's the carrying capacity will be overloaded. So what we're asking here ineffective tell the people well don't use the BWC a use a likes outside the BWC a when an effect the Lakes outside the beat You CA are already probably used as much as probably can be in terms of the the peripheral areas. Now another argument we've made to is that the lakes and the BWC are unique and therefore everyone wants to use them not because they're in the BWC a but because they are unique in terms of the way. They can be used and I think that the argument doesn't hold one but you know, you say that there are hundreds of thousands of lakes outside this area that could be used by by Motors. This is that we don't pat point is not that we want to use motors on these Lakes just for the sake of using Motors some more that we'd like to use these lakes and one way to use these Lakes is with motors and into Joy the Wilderness character of the area. (00:10:56) Congressman vento was just showing some expression of protection on his face at as you're making your comments. I think he wants to respond to I think we got to an important thing here. I think that is admitted that there is a limit to carrying capacity that light can absorb in terms of motorized or for that matter non-motorized use that's fundamental issue that's been recognized. I think by both of us. Secondly, there's two and a half per time is the water surface outside the BWC and the immediate 5 area County that are affected that is supposed to inside and if you go go beyond this, of course to the state you have, you know, fourteen thousand lakes that are available in many of them course have very few have motorists directions. So the point is here that that we did preserve options for the resorts in this area. They do have various benefits that flow from this legislation. I think it very reasonable proposal and the the basic issue that is pointed out is true. The SEC 64 Wilderness act had one paragraph in that address this what has become very complex. Which flowed from Court decisions it is flowed from administrative rulings and they're really had to be a resolution of this issue. We spent two years. We got to build that as many pages in length that I have before me here and it goes into a great deal of detail and trying to propose how we can create treat this area special it still treated special but it's much more definitive. It's much more precise in terms of outlining how we can attain and preserve this area still permitting local options. This is still the only Wilderness Area in the United States practically for instance where we even have a snowmobile at all in it, or for that matter have motorized use. So I think that we've won really a great victory in Minnesota for for local residents in that area as compared to two other wildernesses and indeed we should because this area has been used specially that was Congressman Bruce vento from Minnesota's fourth district a supporter of compromise BWC a legislation that is sitting on President Carter's desk right now. You're listening to midday on Minnesota Public Radio 24 minutes after 12 noon. We had hoped to have representative James Oberstar join us by telephone from Minnesota's 8th District. Unfortunately, he has been able to get through to us yet. We'll let you know as soon as he gets in contact with us because I think it would be interesting to hear from Congressman Oberstar why he was interested in postponing work on BWC a legislation and Alan Searle in Duluth with his guests. Ed's been ski from The Boundary Waters Conservation Alliance and Steve Payne who has been sitting by rather quietly in our Duluth Studios Alan. I'll turn it back to you. (00:13:25) Okay, Dan. I was just going to ask Steve who has been sitting quietly by jotting down a few notes. If you have some comments on the discussion that Ed and Congressman vento have had in the last few minutes about about the motorboat routes and about the area of the Boundary Waters area itself. Well, I think that it's important to recognize that 1064 for service statistics identify. The fact that youth of the area is dramatically increasing with emphasis by recreationists on utilizing canoes and this is an area seventy two percent of all use this legislation has attempted to recognize the fact that there is a change in our society that is Desiring areas to be set aside for protection. So that citizens from across the country can enjoy a primitive recreational experience. The compromise legislation has made dramatic inroads compared to the original Fraser bill, which the Environmental Conservation organization supported. It had made a major attempt to alleviate impacts that may occur upon some resorts and this is reflected by the fact that the legislation has passed by the Congress established indefinite motor use on lakes which represent approximately 64 percent of the total motor. Use. This is the basis of Basswood. For example fall like chain moves like tune d-lab one question for you know, when you say 64 percent of the available motorboat use are you talking about numbers of lakes or you talking about the area of water surface? That figure is the numbers of Motors that utilize the area with respect to water? Area the legislation has passed when it is enacted will Encompass 33% of the water surface area will allow motor boats. To utilize Lakes within the Wilderness following all phase-outs which would end by the year 2000 it will Encompass around 23% I believe the water surface area Okay (00:15:52) Ed and Steven Alan. I wanted to basic question on Steve's remarks and put it to Congressman vento, you know, this issue of preservation conservation of unique lands in Minnesota is certainly I think related to the debate Nationwide about conservation of other Parcels of land. For example, Congressman Vendo before Congress. This last session was the Alaska lands Bill some California Parcels of land. Did you find that when you brought up the issue of the BWC a that it was considered quite separately and that the issues really didn't relate to other land conservation issues in other parts of the country or did you find that members of Congress were sort of considering this in a in a bag of parcels of land that must be preserved know it Was it was considered special because of the fact that it had been designated Wilderness because of the administrative and court rulings that had surrounded it. It's the largest Wilderness east of the Rocky Mountains. And as a consequence, it's used very much. There's High interest we had interest from people all over the United States are writing to us concerning this particular legislation. How did the mail run on that? Well, of course not surprisingly at ran very much in favor of wilderness protection, but I think that you have to balance that off against, you know, people can look at that and say we want it kept that way because we want to use it for the five or six months in the in the seat during the season but there are other people that do live there and we tried to be considered at that. That's why we involved for instance Congressman Oberstar from the beginning and in our hearings, he was a president all of our committee meetings had the opportunity to participate freely. Of course, he's not a member of the committee and It's true the votes on the committee tend to agree with the philosophy and attitudes that he did not agree with but nevertheless we found that for whatever reasons even after having hearings in Minnesota here in st. Paul and Annie Lee after we provide additional hearings in in Washington in 1977 that really that much work put into it. We had to come forth or felt we should come forth with the product that we ought to have some resolution of what admittedly is a very very sticky issue, but it's become a very emotional and I think that that it's unfortunate. I guess that's part of the political process, but I can recall instances during the discussion when we had people that were completely outside the area and Lake Vermilion and other lakes that that touched it that were writing to us and they had they had the wrong impression there many misunderstandings that existed now, of course all of those those attitudes and feelings developed and on the basis of misunderstandings or Formation and I think that that's a really part of the reason that there is still a persist an adverse feeling about any type of legislation that area it's unfortunate that that happened but we have to base our decisions in Congress on the facts we have and I of course would not I don't think be able to develop the type of sensitive posle next year or in future years that I was able to develop in this instance. I have their attention. I was on the the committee. I'm afraid that if it hadn't been for the action that we took this year that the BWC a would very easily have been rolled into one of these large Omnibus land bills and would not have received the attention as a consequence the type of policy and management policy would have been consistent with Wilderness in the National level and would really have been an anathema to the people in that area. I know Congressman vendor that we have her dead zabrinczski and other members of the Conservation Alliance talk about the loss of jobs related to Timber in the BWC and I want to put a question to Ed. On that issue Ed. We have heard reports that some of the loggers have already lost work in the BWC a and I want to get from you some idea of what is involved here. How many people do you maintain will lose jobs in the logging industry as a result of further (00:19:51) restrictions. I'm not sure going to be exact about exact numbers. I know the kind of logging company as an example. Mary Lee has already laid off 20 individuals that is only one of one of several logging operations on the periphery of the BWC a another currently for companies who have agreed to a moratorium this Congressman Oberstar on logging operations in the BWC a that kind of lead them into one another lest other point. I'd like to make with as mr. Vinh Thanh see how you'd like to respond to it. But that is the fact that there wasn't the the urgent need for legislation that that's been argued here. I think that if you sit down and look at this dispassionately, I think the will we realize that there's no immediate resource damage examining our even in you know, two years down the pike. The logging thing has been output as I said on ice because the moratorium there would be no snowmobiling in the BWC this winter the motor use which would exist. Any bill has never been proven to be environmentally degrading to the area and therefore the the need for this immediate push for legislation kind of kind of baffled us. I think to and you alluded to the fact that emotions this issue has become very emotional. I think the demote the emotions in this instance have not served to to clarify the issue. I think if only clouded the issue and I think what Congressman Oberstar and what certainly what the alliance has maintained all along is that this issue would be better resolved without the emotion without the controversy be better resolved in an atmosphere where we could sit down very coolly and calmly and and take studies do studies with which accurately reflect all of the impacts of the legislation. (00:21:38) Why not? Wait longer Congressman Bento. Well for one thing this area has been studied more extensively than any other Wilderness in the United States the second the second aspect with regards to with regards to the loss of jobs in the timber industry and the voluntary moratorium. Fine just as long as you have people have a have a hammer over your head and they can they can try to extract from you. Perhaps what they want or show their displeasure by not responding. I can't say I deeply appreciate the congressman over Stars efforts. I think he was instrumental in attaining the moratoriums. I think he should be given great credit for it. It did permit us the working room, but I think that people want in that area the logging companies have a right to have a resolution of the issue. So they know where they're at. I think Norman kinds as a right to have a resolution of the issue and he's in the Saw Timber industry in the amount of Timber in the BWC a available for what he wanted is very limited. So I think that he has suffered and under this bill he will receive the type of compensation that is Justified. So thing is as I said before we worked on this for almost two years. It's had been studied more extensively than any other Wilderness proposal. We lament, you know, it's is exactly what Senator Anderson did he tried to put two people together in a room that had different views one. Running the conservationists one representing the local users and concerns mr. Walls and he arrived at that type of solution. But the fact of the matter is of course that that wasn't greeted with with great great Acceptance in that area. We put the effort in we put the time in and it just gets to the point where you have to take you do have to take an action. If you're going to move forward. We don't we tried to you know, this proposal has been before Congress for almost 4 years. It started out with Jim Oberstar Z introduction of legislation in the 94th Congress and the subsequent introduction of legislation by Congressman Fraser, which obviously they have different viewpoints. I ended up on the interior committee. I tried to appoint some compromise between them which I felt was reasonable which I could sell to the members of the committee on which I serve and if I had had cooperation in an attitude of compromise at that time, perhaps we would have been able to do in the house side what Senator Anderson attained on the Senate side? Sorry, we weren't but I commend him for his efforts and his courage in standing up and trying to solve this issue (00:23:59) Congressman vento. This is Alan Searle in Duluth. Ed's a Penske would like to ask you a question relating to your last statement. Yeah, Mr. Vento. I was just wondering if you could respond to the fact that our claim that there would be no resource damage to the BWC this winter. And as you stated in his I repeated Zelda's issue has been clouded with emotion, which we contend is does not help to clarify the issues. It's only served to the polarize individuals from northern part of the state and metropolitan area. And don't you think that this issue would be better resolved in a more calmer atmosphere where people could sit down and logically reason this thing out and come up with a solution that was acceptable to people instead of you know, moving this thing through with for the sake of political experience, which I don't think is (00:24:45) real and if in all deference, I don't think that anyone moved to through with for political expedience the Congress from that area. He had been participated in the process from the beginning. It was not something that was passed. You know, a lot of times a proposal like this can come through on a bill an amendment without the the local Congressman even knowing anything about it was extremely was treated exclusively was giving all the opportunity to participate obviously the philosophy of the committee and the whole house in Congress the house side and Senate side differed from what local residents agreed with but no, I think that we had to take action as here. I think was imperative that we take action is here. I think that if I brought this issue back before my house colleagues next year that they would have tarred and feathered me and you know, I think that the point the point here is that it's I appreciate the good faith efforts of people in that area in terms of going along with the moratorium and the other things that have been done. I think they're to be commended for it. I hope that when the when this cools down there look at this proposal and I'm committed to to make I feel very strongly about the provisions in the bill. The provide for help to the local people in that area in terms of monetary help in terms of training in terms of retooling and moving in. If those are real problems. I think that this bill does dress them. You got money in the bill for the timber. You're actually have more jobs as a consequence of the dollars in here in the softwood development in and around the region. So this is this bill will produce jobs that will preserve the resource, which is I said Is Fundamental to the Vitality of the resort industry in that area and will return to a couple of more comments from Ed's of in ski on the issue of loss of Timber jobs and state programs designed to offset some of those loss of jobs in just a moment. You are listening to a discussion of Boundary Waters canoe area legislation as part of midday on Minnesota Public Radio. We're coming up on 22 minutes. Now before one o'clock Congressman vento has engagements elsewhere and the Twin Cities area and he's expected to be at those other engagement soon. So anytime you have to depart you do that, and we appreciate your presence for this. And I did want to ask you about the state programs the executive order by Governor perpich or the administrative order rather indicating that the Department of Natural Resources should much more actively make access available to loggers into new Timber areas. Just outside the BWC a I stated a little clumsily. What I mean to say is that the state is going to spend some additional money building roads to allow loggers into new Timber areas and to also reforest more aggressively. Do you think that'll offset any job loss? (00:27:26) Yes, I think it probably will but the same time we realize that these intensified management practices begin. Now, you won't see the results of these efforts for the next 20 30 years. And I think there's a is me a lag time that have to be made up somewhere. It's not at all clear where this substitute Timber will will be manufactured from our will be found in all the state has done a study. On the timber availability and 18 County area that Governor perfect show indicated. This could be found in and from what I've heard preliminary indications show that the amount and species and volume of Timber is not there in the immediate area in terms of finding substitute timber for people on the periphery of the BWC a (00:28:16) congressman wedding. Well the closest paper, you know, soft wood industry is 50 60 miles away from The Boundary Waters canoe area. It's very far away when you're talking about sawtimber course, you're talking about specific problem as with Norman kinds but I think that what we're talking about with the real issue boil down to his availability of soft and we discussed the state did a study we cooperate with the forest service and we found that for at least the next 20 years. There's adequate supplies a soft wood based on what the existing uses been as a matter of fact not even all of the soft wood that has been available over the past five years has been utilized or On out the contract. There's a variety of reasons for that might be into smaller Parcels might be diseas'd would I realize that but I on the other hand, I think that soft wood. Is there some undesirable species of softwood but by and large it their assurances in this bill that there will be cooperation with the state the money. Is there the commitment is there in the part of the forest service and we certainly intend to work closely with the United States Forest Service to make certain that they live up to those commitments Steve Payne of the Wilderness Society in our Duluth Studios. Is this a victory for the people who wanted the BWC a to be preserved as a Wilderness this compromise legislation? (00:29:31) I think that it's a significant game it certainly wasn't as much as we desire to achieve. I think that we felt it was a victory to others to accomplish this legislation this year because we disagree with the Conservation Alliance and that we felt it was very important for this legislation to be dismissed by the Congress this year acted upon We do not believe that by delaying it would have created a an air of calm and reasoning to come before upon the people of the area. In fact, if anything it would have just prolong the agony it has mr. Vento quite adequately pointed out. The process has gone on for two years now and through every step all parties have been engaged in offering input throughout the process. (00:30:23) That was Steve Payne of Duluth who is a member of the Wilderness Society Ed's been scared like to put a final question to you as we try to wrap this up. Are you going to challenge the BWC a legislation in any way either in the courts are in the political (00:30:35) process? Well, I think that we are certainly investigating that possibility in terms of the class action suit or something of that nature yet. I know I talked with for service officials in Washington last week and they indicated that there was some question from their attorneys for service attorneys about the possibilities of question of legislative taking arising with this new mining protection area. I know there are gray areas in this legislation that have to be investigated. I think soon as we make a thorough study of the entire bill will be better able to assess how quickly we will likely move on (00:31:12) this and that was Ed's been ski a member of The Boundary Waters Conservation Alliance Alan sir, Linda Lou. Thanks for your participation in this discussion. And also thanks to 4th District Congressman Bruce vento. Unfortunately Congressman James Oberstar was unable to join us and perhaps we'll be hearing more from Congressman Oberstar in Future Days on the BWC a issue. I'm sure it won't go away for a long time to come. Thanks to all of you once again.


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