(00:00:00) The work Equity project is an idea that some say shows how welfare can be reformed in this country. President Carter has committed himself to welfare reform but as with so many other things reform is never as simple as it seems and today on. Midday we talk with the person directly involved with welfare reform. Here's MP Arsdale Connolly to introduce our guests tail. Thank you Dan in our studio this afternoon. We have two guests Edith Lolly. ER is the state coordinator of the work Equity project, which is a sort of an experiment that's going on in Minnesota and it just began in operation this summer in some parts of the state and just about three weeks ago in st. Paul. Our other guest is the coordinator of the work Equity project in the city of st. Paul Sharon Stewart is with us and thank you for coming in to talk with us today. Both of you. I'd like to start I think by by asking a little bit about the history before we get into the details of how the program works simply because it occurred to me. This morning as I was thinking about talking to you that many of us just started to hear about the work Equity project this summer like it sprung up out of nowhere. But in fact planning for this has been going on for quite some time hasn't (00:01:13) it? Yes Dale. That's correct. One of the things that we discover as we work with a program like this is the many years that winning to the involvement of planning a project such as this with it's clearly took a lot of people's time and effort to come up with any kind of workable program. That would be funded by the federal government. I think the dates of 73 74 are given in the history of when the first proposals were submitted to the Department of Labor for their consideration at the same time the Department of Labor, we looking for different types of demonstration project to find out whether it was feasible to put people to work who are receiving public assistance. And so after many years of putting something together, the first grant was To the state of Minnesota in September 1977. That's the first time we saw any money, but they had been about three three and a half years of work done before (00:02:09) then. What kind of planning goes goes into (00:02:12) this? Well, first of all, you have to write down your ideas and your objectives and goals and submit them to Department of Labor and find out whether they match the goals and objectives that the Department of Labor has in mind and obviously there were some that did meet them in some that didn't the program has changed extensively since the first proposals were written with changed in its scope. It changed in its goal not it is gold the gold stayed the same but a change in the amount of people that would serve how it would serve them how much money would be available for the project. I think at one time the initial project went down with a price tag on it a 55 million dollars. We're not working anyplace near that now we're dealing with about one-fifth of that. Little funding and so everything had to be adjusted just a little bit before we could put it into (00:03:05) operation. Okay. Well Edith maybe we should talk now about that goal since that is the one thing at least that has remained constant over the years. What what is the work Equity project supposed to (00:03:17) do? Well, it is designed to combine and expand several of the existing programs and services so that they can create more opportunities for welfare recipients of different types of welfare assistance to find work to find out whether they can emphasize the development of a participant in one of those programs employment related skills and experience and get them to into a job. That would make them fully self supporting. (00:03:50) Okay. So the ultimate goal is to Simply will eventually get people off of welfare and totally self-supporting in their own (00:03:57) jobs. It is to demonstrate whether that's a Ability it is to demonstrate whether with the kind of assistant this program will give is that a possibility to move a certain number of people off of welfare completely and put them into self supporting (00:04:13) jobs. Now. Am I right in assuming that this act more as a supplement to the programs that already exist afdc what general assistance I think is and thanks - that's right. (00:04:25) Not really as a supplement the grant would continue and those are the three grants that we're dealing with. What we're doing is providing them with training and other services that they might need in order to become employed in a job, but we would not be changing their basic Grant or the basic whatever they're receiving from the the the public assistance grant see the general assistance afdc or the food stamp (00:04:53) program. So while a person is on Welfare, they're receiving a certain amount of money so that they can continue to live that's right work equity. And it says while you're receiving that money, we're going to try to help you learn how to do something (00:05:03) and work with them to and find out what kind of training they need or Supportive Services in order to find a job and become self-supporting. (00:05:12) That is the person have a choice in this case. They say I want to learn how to be a yes A Nurse around learn how to be a doctor or whatever. (00:05:21) Yes, they usually use neurosurgeon a neurosurgeon on the participant does have a very big role in this one of the things that we have is what we call an employment developability development plan and Employment Development plan that has to be signed by both the participants and the counselor so that the participant has a great role in pointing out to the counselor and the counselor to the participant whether or not their goals are realistic and can be obtained. There is all sorts of us. Vocational testing done if it if it meets the needs of the participant to find out what they are. We met ready for they might be ready for nucleus surgery, (00:06:14) but there are some people who aren't particularly cut out to be neurosurgeons and that's what this is designed to find, right. So everybody sits down and you go over it a you take the test and eventually come to a conclusion as to what the best option for you is (00:06:29) yes, and and and we the counselors who are employed in his program also have the availability of all the information about what jobs are out there. In other words. They have the Minnesota occupational information system at their beck and call and they make use of that for not training people for not existing types of jobs. It doesn't really might do much good if if there are you get a highly trained person and there's no job out there. The one that always sticks in my mind is the Fact that a few years ago. I remember reading that we should not train anybody to be elevator operators because they were not going to make it elevators were becoming automatic. And that's the kind of thing. We want to prevent this to train someone for a position that will there will be no call for no (00:07:17) Market. Okay, that's Edith lollies or for those of you who are listening to voices because we have another guest who I want to ask a question of also Sharon Stewart who coordinates the work Equity project for the city of st. Paul now, you know more about the mechanics of exactly how the program works and I hope you can answer this question about work Equity as it relates to programs that already exist like work incentive. What is the difference there between the two is it a significant one will in the city of st. Paul Dale? Project has in fact replaced for the demonstration year replace the work incentive program our population within St. Paul only is the afdc mandatory afdc (00:08:02) men and women as (00:08:04) of September 18th. They became eligible rather than for win for work Equity. Hmm. What what changed is that make in their lives? Well, if you look at at the work Equity program as an expanded (00:08:19) wind program is taking as some have said it does taking the best of what win is in the best of what Sita is and putting a very creative (00:08:28) individualized umbrella over that structure. Then it could mean some expanded advantages for the clientele that we're talking about. It could mean some new resources perhaps more directly available to them. Hmm now briefly in in work incentive. We've been talking about for further work Equity project. Sitting down with a counselor trying to find out what kinds of things they could be trained to do working towards the ultimate goal of having them not be on welfare in work incentive. Do you go through a similar process or is it less than that? Is it more than that? Is it different than that? Okay, perhaps I can I can best illustrate that by giving you an idea of what's going on in st. Paul right now within work equity which has not occurred within when we've taken a kind of sub-grantees substructure the best of what a number of agencies can provide for example, the umbrella agency to our counseling component is working opportunities for women and (00:09:34) it was identify that we (00:09:35) felt the group process that while used their awareness of women's issues were very important in something that we could wanted to incorporate into the st. Paul web program St. Paul. Urban League has a solid reputation for doing on-the-job training and doing it well They are a sub-grantee within web doing are on the job training and classroom training components the school system the city of st. Paul school system has a history of working with Sita in doing subsidized employment and having a portion of our public service employment positions. They have helped us set up in our the sub granting Agency for our community work projects. We are additionally involving migrants in action with our counseling coaches are and client Advocate or similar role. What we're doing is bringing together Under One Roof in what has been called a One-Stop service to enter a number of organizations and individuals that have expertise in making things happen for people. It sounds to me like there's a lot of flexibility at this point in the way. The program is is handled sort of tailoring it to to the needs that come up as you go along. Is that right? We want to try and maintain that we want to maintain a sensitive responsiveness to what the needs of the people were serving. Our and that means that we are going to have to be flexible. Listen to one another (00:10:55) respect what another agencies are another (00:10:58) individual's position is and learn from that grow from that. Okay. Thank you. Sharon Edith does a person have a choice under work Equity as to whether or not they want to take a job or must they take some kind of job here. (00:11:13) Once the person has been declared eligible for work Equity program, which is the decided by the case worker at the welfare department. They will be required to register with work Equity program. What happens from there on will depend on a very much about their Employment Development plan. They may be required to enroll in school if that's what they're training is going through lead toward or they may be asked to take a community Works project job, which should in all the way we Sharon has it. And should lead to more training for them in a particular area that they are interested in so that they can have an experience factor in the type of work they want to do and perhaps take more training but they will be required to participate in some one of the (00:12:07) components now is that program is that requirement something new? I mean have people not been required to participate in something like this before or is this the usual way of (00:12:18) proceeding? Well, we hope it's not the usual way of proceeding but everybody has Within These programs have had some type of work requirement. The afdc has had in the wind requirement in all the counties that win was in active in which was not the whole 87 in the state of Minnesota. The general assistance has had a work component in food stamp has had mandatory requirement of registering with job services for the state of Minnesota. So all of those things have Been there what happened been there is a necessary support of services and the type of assistance. We hope to give those people to reach their own personal goal in that searching for an employment type of position. (00:13:05) Well to what extent though. Can you really require people to do things like this? It sounds like you know, it's very it's very well drawn out so that you know a person once once they've gotten on this particular path really it doesn't have much of a choice as to what they're going to do. They must if it means going to school they must go to school if it means taking a particular job because it's available than must they take that job. (00:13:32) That's one of the things that are written into the program is that it is mandatory for them to participate. We hope that and the time that we do this we'll do it. So well that successfully that we won't have anybody objecting to participating. However if they do there are Procedures that can be invoked in order to Center them for not participating such as reduction of their Grant from the welfare department. It would not be at this time the reduction of the full grant. That would be just their particular. Part of the grant that would be reduced their particular funding for it. But they also have set up a very clear grievance procedure set out for the clients so that if they're in a position where they're not being served or where they feel that that it is, they're not working to their best goals. The grievance procedure is spelled out for them and we have actually in both the balance of State in the art World areas and in the city of st. Paul entered into contracts for advocates for the clients so that they will be represented during that time and they should be satisfied with the program as it comes out. (00:14:53) I'd like to talk a little bit about the nature of the work Equity project as an experiment. If there was to be a criticism along those lines. It might be simply that why are you experimenting with this project in Minnesota the things well for instance the things that Red indicate the maybe first of all Minnesota is not a good place to experiment because of the relatively low unemployment level and high level of Education (00:15:22) that may be the case. If beside one thing we'd like to call it a demonstration project rather than an experiment. What would what you have to do with the demonstration project like this is put it into a place where it does have some degree of success written into it. Otherwise, you'll fail before you start we're running into enough problems, you know, as we develop the program along the way if you put it into a an area where the unemployment rate was 30 or 40 percent as it is in some of the largest cities in the East I don't think anything would work as a demonstration until the bugs are worked out. So if you put it into a place where there is a fairly stable economy, you can take your time in and demonstrate what happens. To be worked on and change before it will be a success. (00:16:15) What about the possibility of flaws in the system assuming that they're in that there might be some resulting in any risk for a person who's who's part of the demonstration project? (00:16:30) Well, we were we were required by the department of health education and Welfare to put together an Institutional review board who reviewed the project for about three months before we began it, which was one of the reasons one of the other reasons that we delayed opening the institutional review board did review the whole process from through the whole Grant than through the operations and they decided that they would not be risk to the participants above and beyond the normal every average risk of anybody receiving Public Assistance or seeking employment and they had to submit That to the Department of H, ew, which they did and that they did add 10 conditions to it. All of them were excellent conditions. None of them. We found difficult to work with and we hope that we would have thought of them ourselves some time down the line and having them pointed out to his head of time did not make it a very difficult at all. And so we intended and have implemented them before we started the process. (00:17:39) So there is a protection process, (00:17:42) you know, and yes and the is the institutional review board will be monitoring. They have met twice since the program started and to follow up on all the conditions that they gave us and we'll be meeting every three months to make sure that we continue to meet the conditions that they have attached to their (00:18:00) approval. How long is this going to go on now before the money runs out? (00:18:05) Well that depends we have a grant now in hand and We'll take us for so many months. I think nine months in the city of st. Paul and seven months in the counties in the balance of State. We are requesting more money from the Department of Labor because we feel that a program like this to be the give any indication of success has to operate it at least a year. So we're going after more money and hopefully we'll make it a year or longer so that we can have some results from the people we put into this (00:18:37) program, but the money isn't there right now for it to go a year (00:18:41) know at this point in not eating when you say there it is not in the state of Minnesota. It's supposedly in the department of labor, but we will have to submit another Grant package down to get the rest of the money to continue it for that length of (00:18:52) time is all of the money to run work Equity coming from the Department of Labor is the state contributing part of it or the counties. Where is it all (00:19:01) coming from know the grant comes from the Department of Labor. However, there is a reimbursable. Amount from the County's depending on how much we reduce their welfare cost. In other words if in a county we can effectively demonstrate from about Baseline that we have reduced their welfare grants to participants. They are to reimburse work equity for that amount at this point. Of course, we have no except for the Baseline figures. We have nothing to go on (00:19:39) yet. So it's related directly to to results. That's right HD ever as a person running a county office. Do you ever feel the heat to perform? Well, I think that's I'm not sure if it's heat Dale but we're felt very young public. We're very visible. We have a desire to do a quality job and to do it cooperatively maybe another extension of what what Edie was saying earlier is that the cooperativeness in terms of shared money's extends for example in St. Paul? Of the Wind Staff of currently are over and we're coming over to the st. Paul Work Equity program to integrate what they already know into the other sub grantees that I mentioned earlier. The Ramsey County. Welfare Department is providing Social Service staff for that same purpose. So we're not ignoring what is already gone before or what has gone before we're trying to build upon that it must be difficult to start a program from scratch. Well, I I felt personally and st. Paul that we weren't starting from scratch. I was very aware when I became the administrator of that program that much had gone before in the planning. I was very grateful for the amount of planning that had gone into it but it is the ultimate in coordination in many ways and bringing all that together and tying up the package and remembering all the Loose Ends can be very (00:21:01) difficult. Yes. It's very challenging. It difficult is probably not the right word. But one of the things that this program is to demonstrate to is whether Such complex organization such as the Department of Economic Security in the Department of Public Welfare can work together in a one project thing to assist clients. And I think both those parts programs on the state level have learned quite a bit about the others operations and can only let lead to better cooperation and coordination in the future. (00:21:32) Okay, one more question and then we're going to have to wrap this up but there has been quite a bit said about President Carter's welfare reform ideas as related to this program. How closely are they really related? (00:21:44) Really we're operating is if this was a demonstration project to demonstrate whether we can put people to work whether this is then implemented into President Carter's welfare reform will depend on the success of this program. Really, we don't know whether we're going to be successful or not, but we don't really like to think of it as a prototype for welfare reform per se if it works and we can use it that way fine. But if it doesn't we don't assume that it will be (00:22:12) used. Okay. Thank you very much Edith Lolly. ER who is the state coordinator of the work Equity project and Sharon Stewart who is the project coordinator for the city of st. Paul? I appreciate your coming in to spend this time with us today.