There are at least a handful of public issues which arouse strong emotions among large numbers of people. These issues are fairly well-defined. They've been around for a long time new information and insights on them. Especially common and the resolution is often extremely difficult still every time one point of view on one of these issues is presented those who disagree with it respond with Vigor even on the subject may have been thoroughly discussed many times in the past and will continue to be discussed in the future. This appears to be the case with things like gun control abortion and almost any topic involving morality sexuality or religion. Another of these issues is the Middle East which of course has been seen a major world conflicts throughout. Most of History region is almost always in the news these days couple of weeks ago. All the news was Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Bagans visit to the United States. This week has been Secretary of State Cyrus Vance has efforts to arrange a new Middle East peace conference at Geneva. What are the major obstacles to resumption of those talks? He has been the participation of the Palestinian Arabs and did the fate of the Palestinians is seen by many as at the heart of an overall Arab Israeli settlements, even though there many other differences between the countries involved. Last week during this time. We presented in the interview which offered the viewpoints of the Palestinian and Israeli generally opposed to most of his nation's mitty's policies and the spirit of fairness. We decided today to seek the views of two men who have another perspective on Middle East issues. They are dr. David cooperman sociology professor at the University of Minnesota and Robert Friedman and Israeli citizen who is pursuing graduate work in sociology at the University and who will return to Israel after your studies are complete gentleman. What is that General perspective of yours. Cypress I should first say I suppose that I'm Jewish and my intent Sentiments of run specifically to Jewish Community Values with regard to the Middle East but not to the exclusion certainly of any sense of universal ethics or Cosmopolitan concern. The area itself is so fraught with the possibilities of tragic disaster is that none but people who behave unethically can supposed to the narrow nationalist of parochial interests should rule in that particular area my position generally is that my own biases toward Israel. Do not per se exempt a position of deep sympathy for all groups in a particular area. Mistreating. I'm before I left this real ID find myself as an Israeli. I took for granted that I was you. I didn't question of the door. I didn't think in terms of scientism the United States, especially after the 1973 War priorities of Define myself first as a Jew then is a Zionist and then has an Israeli but the phrase Zionism came up in the broadcast very very frequently last week. Could you explain what that term means. Involved in I can try it's it's it's a very complex full of meaning. often abused concept the basically what the tries to designate is some kind of National Liberation movement, which is what you sees a certain area a certain territory as has its Homeland. It is not too difficult to point out historical and religious ties to Israel, which is Zion is one of the Analogues of his room was basically devised as a political movement for a National Liberation of Jewish people in the Bass Pro that says it's an initial description. 200 extent does it reflect official Israeli government policy today? The two phases that must be distinguished. The first phase was the actualization of the National Liberation goals. In other words for creation establishment of the state. Once the state was established that goal was achieved when you can say, okay now we can dispose of the moment. However, the other goes that How to be defined in the current conditions of the state and that would be kind of me in the gracian a religion international relations, which the solution of the approaches to the problems do. Are incurred in a specific ideological Zionist the perspective of the word the preservation of Jewish identity Collective Jewish identity and the preservation of the Israeli National sovereignty. Does it have a corollary in the United States? I would not say so at all. I'm mostly for reasons that the mr. Friedman mentioned namely that hit began in the late 19th century as a singular movement led by a set of beliefs which that there should be a Homeland for Jews now and then in American history, of course, there was no sense that there is a singular National - ethnic people a cultural entity which before it had the land with American in poetically in American history. We say the land was ours before we haven't landed some distinct sense in the land made us. This was not the case for Zionism, but I might also add that there are many different types of Zionism because of the Contemporary debate about the Middle East the way the issues are posed are often that there is pan-arabism or the Palestinian movement against Zionism as such that's extremely misleading in the sense that almost rhyme with Beginning there were at least six different varieties of Zionism and quite often as has been the case in Jewish history on many occasions that was more Intergroup disagreement. Then there was consensus. The core of consensus was very well described by Mr. Friedman, but you also must know that there are at least several different kinds of religiously oriented diet Zionism and at least several different kinds of secular and concerning the Strategic and long-run details of the nature of a Jewish homeland. There's a good deal of variance on that. And even in the Contemporary setting in Israel there the government no government has a distinct Zionist Creed from which it logically deduce has a set of plans either with regard to foreign policy or with regard to domestic policy each government adults. Overarching historical Zion his features, but in the day-to-day running of the government you you just won't find any Zionist ideology that is administered per se. One of the guests last week equated Zionism with the role of colonial settlers, especially in Rhodesia, South Africa and Australia. What's your view about analogy? Let me introduce it this way the phrase Colonial settler and the phrase Zionist racism and several other phrases which label a distinct set of people or historical entity, which now has Israel as a foal. Those phrases are code phrases that are all organized in a conflict movement revolutionary movement ideology, which goes by various name. The Palestinian Liberation Organization has adopted this ideology very absolutely originally. It stems from my term for it from the original is vulgar vulgar eyes leninism something like this appears in the works of Lenin, although not at all with regard to Zionism. The point to be made is that my judgment is that in order to understand the language meanings of phrases of this sort one should resort to The Works say of George Orwell. On political meanings where the meaning of terms like Colonial settlers are scientists racism are not ordinary. You can't find these meanings in the dictionary rather. They have their meant to be political weapons and they're meant to have political impact. That's one of the reasons why it's so difficult to take these words at face value their code terms and their essential purpose is to designate another as full to be destroyed in which case the meaning of the term like the phrase Colonial settler is not is not important at all in the mind of the Sayer of the term rather. The intent is to be used as a label so that when the term is repeated absolutely and somewhat propagandistic Style by an organized movement the victims being labeled by the term could be understood by all as having engaged in shameful action now, Some examples of if one were to treat the term with any seriousness what usually follows from the term is colonial settler that is supposed to remind neutral listeners of such imperialist movements as movement which launched the settlement of South Africa by the boers OR at the effort afrikaners or it's usually tied as it was last week to the Rhodesian white dominance the least acquaintances with the origins of Zionism, but the least the most minimal but indicates that the term just has no backing insect in the sense that one branch of modern Zionism, perhaps the best-known that sounded by hurtful that came out of the Dreyfus Affair at the end of the 19th century in France herzl among other Jews had been a fairly liberal Jewish journalist and the attendance at the Dreyfus trial indicated clearly to him as a did too many non-jews that what can be called. International imperialism as represented by the ante dreyfoos arts in the French government who asserted that the French Empire I must be safe no matter what even against the truth of the matter in the case of Captain Dreyfus. Do you respond to view such as Hetzel to that was that European imperialism especially and it's colonialist forms must be combated and that the Jewish Liberation movement should take the form of anti-colonialism that every aspect of hurts his writings and then the writings of those scientists who disagreed with her till the labor Zionist. I was intended to be and had an anti-colonialist backing and in every which way the idea was that the Arab population then in Palestine was to live in a situation of absolute equality with any kind of Jewish population that already was there and large numbers and which also would move to Palestine. I simply would urge anyone Tristan and it to read one of the hair tools very interesting utopian books book and it's German translate in German called all to know I learned or old and new land a utopian tale where the new society would be a model of democracy that looks very much like that of John Stuart Mill the English liberal in which people were equal civil liberties were to be safeguarded regardless of the ethnic or religious characteristics of people public service and excepted privilege and ironically very, ironically hurtful could not foresee any need for Army service since after all, they would be no private interests that would follow the public good there would absolutely be no Jewish colonists or Colonial leiser's on the contrary Jews were to provide a model of self-determination for the Arabs of Palestine and every ways I ended the major thrust of Zionism is against colonialism or Colonial set the rhythm of the tide founded by many imperialist night Nations, but you can't argue this With people who are ideological ideologically True Believers or who cynically will use words only for political purposes. Could you compare European settlement of the United States and that effect on American Indians with European migration to Palestine and its effect on the Palestinian Arabs who lives there and any legal sense absolutely not in an illegal tint legal sense of the Zionist people who came to Palestine under Zionist inspiration settle in lands that were already owned by Jews under the ottoman Turkish Empire which was ending forest and lands which were published from ottoman Turkish the ottoman Turkish authorities when the lands were government-owned or there was a significant portion of the lands that were purchased at market prices. Not the Peter Stuyvesant prices. They didn't pay $24 for the island of Manhattan or anything like that. They paid Mark going market prices and even more than that from the Arab landowners the effendi and at the end of the 19th century or there were lands that were not owned by anyone that would largely swamps such as the swamps that we're settled and drained and work by the Israelis themselves and no sense. Was there anything like reservations that is for Native Americans and in no sense were their treaties made since there was no sense of Inter National obligations involved. No kind of treaties that then we're abrogated by one side or the other Liberation movement of the Jewish people erupt in the end of the 19th century and not the 718 centuries ago. Maybe two hundred years from now. And it was interesting to know that as long as that you was well Preston you up. It was not much that they could do about it. But and they did not crystallize as a political movement. But once the enlightenment gave the chance of a Quality Inn in the Galaxy. System in Western and Eastern Europe, like when the Jews could not participate in it, it was exactly that that type of combination of relative deprivation that that led to do to the crystallization of of The Liberation also in this world that it was not some kind of planned colonialist supplement people settled on some kind of an hour organization of basis, but it it was in many cases individualistic and the numbers of of Jews that came especially since 1882 is divided two ways of emigrate. as if it was not that one day they came and inhabited the area was also a long history of Jewish Community, especially in Jerusalem with the way a majority of the time that the Jews never left his Well, it appears to be the perception of the Palestinian Arabs that they were displaced by the creation the state of Israel to Derek community and their culture was disrupted if not destroyed. Isn't their insistence on regaining their former status valid isn't their resistance to what they view as Israeli occupation to be expected of the fullest and problem without denying its existence is one of the most magnificent Fabrications of the Arab world. And when the Jewish settlement started to develop Agriculture and Industry in what is this world today? The area was nothing habited is it is today no to so many Arabs are going through so many Jews, but the development of those branches attracted labor force from the neighboring administrated ultimate administrative territories was no national identity Syria, Jordan Egypt as independent states. And those Arabs became Palestinians. I'm a good night. The way I was before that but they also address before that is the design of the new Jewish Community to have a how to have self reliance on labor production. I think correctly evidenced that this is a movement which is totally in. Contradiction to a therapist and for Democratic Values egalitarian values socialist values are totally opposite to what the Arabs have dictatorships autocracies and inequality and it would love the Palestinians that crystallize against the Jewish community so much as their neighboring countries and they first festered the resistance. It's kind of interesting to know that serious studies the movement of the Jews and the Palestinian Arab Palestinians show clearly the Jewish National Liberation movement was a constructive effort to build to develop to innovate the Arab national movement was clearly an objection to that. It was not a national movement to establish some kind of herb stay, but it wasn't We will be that exact opposite of design is plural object the existence. So it it was well documented in a variety of programs against the Jewish community and probably the worst examples are depending on your point of view of cooperation between the Palestinians Arabs and the Nazis. The displacement in 1948 did not occur because Israelis drove with scars all by foot the Arabs to the border. The Arab countries called the inhabitants of 10 Palestine to leave the local leadership calling the Arabs. Look Don't Run Away. There's nothing we will do to you know, Evacuate the territories and then we'll come and liberate them for you. This was delete their leadership the night just breaking and illustrate the secretary of the Arab League office in London said in the book published by him the Arabs published in London, 1955 says as follows the wholesale Exodus of Arabs was due partly to the belief of the Arabs and Courage by the boasting of an unrealistic Arab. Press and irresponsible utterances of some of the Arab leaders that it could be only a matter of some weeks before the Jews were defeated by the armies of the Arab states and the Palestinian Arabs and able to re-enter and take possession of the country then an American correspondent who covered the you 1948 events Kenneth Bilby rights as follows, the air of Exodus initiated at least initially at least was encouraged by many are leaders such as Haj Amin al-husseini the exiled pro-nazi Mufti of Jerusalem and by the Arab higher committee for Palestine they do the first wave of Arab setbacks is merely transitory the Palestinian Arabs flee into neighboring countries. It would serve to arouse the other Arab peoples to Greater effort. And when the Arab Invasion struck the Palestinians could return to their homes and be compensated with a property of Jews driven from the sea. The my view also is that the plight of the Palestinians is severe and it should be dealt with us as is the plight of any Refugee group. I doubt very much if there will be a solution to the Middle East conflict unless the plight of Palestinian refugees is dealt with as the plight of Bangladesh refugees should have been dealt with much better than it was and as a part of Hindu in Pakistani refugees should have been dealt with in 1947 1948. There's no question that from any kind of humanitarian point of view. This is something strongly issue but it has very little to do with the the charge that anywhere from 250,000 to a million or two million depending on how you count. The refugees were directly displaced in 1948 exact numbers are about between 600 to 700000 herbs. That fled does also. Because of atrocities that the Jewish Community committed the Arabs were very fearsome and then fled in a hurry. The one which usually always refer to the paleocene and it'll cause referred to as the day is in Massacre happened in April 1948. And most of the Arabs long before that. November and December is 47 the looking 73. I remember talking to some people they said no the the joke in in Israel was that the syrians will meet Egyptians in Tel Aviv. Another Words Crush the country in the thunder on the seashore and that the Arabs that have a very interesting pattern of behavior towards the subjugated the minorities in the countries did that because what they are doing to other people then if there would be subjugated the fact is that the take for instance to the Jordanian civil war against Civil War in 1970. What did the soldiers run away the Palestinian soldiers renovated Israeli border Israeli soldiers waited for them was orange juice and sandwiches didn't want to eat your bleeding from to Siri without Well Control. Why why am I saying that it is a fabrication and look they have the West Bank and the Gaza Strip for 19 years from 48 to 67. What can the president except the petition resolution in 47 totally ignored it? And I like the political scientist to say that the Civil War erupted because of this countries invaded Israel in 67 did still did not establish an entity in the territories that they have. Southern either one territories back as if we started this game and say we give them back the territories are we get back to the situation of 367 and then we can ask so why did they start the 67 war that the psychology isn't the structure in the dynamic of the conflict is much more deeper than the attempts to make it. So superficially is only one side is so so to blame that at this point, I feel tremendously different interpretation of history that both sides have I mean both sides can come up with facts, you know, they say or fax to explain what happened? Yes, and if you don't call somebody a liar will you do Well, thankfully the quote that has something to do you can go to summer systematic study is which not terrible Jewish particularly and try to see how the different structures by buy some social conditions antagonistic and done something that makes in the Arab world, especially particularly pan-arabism and Islam which clearly reject any element of a for nature, which is known Arabic in my Muslim. I think even example in about four or five months ago. It was several Americans on is to travel to Egypt Syria and Jordan The metal is Sadat's wife and she told him something like you know, I'm 73. We could have conquered Tel Aviv with my husband to so benevolent that we didn't and other words they couldn't but didn't want to the editor of the leading semi-official Egyptian newspaper said to them and he know who's speaking to them. There's no room for for an element which is not Muslim and Arab in the Middle East has abated was Egyptians. I have an area beside many time. They said to me there's no future for his review butterfly for an Egyptian Visa extremism is not particularly is really related. But what is important to know that we might talk about it later is the consistent pattern of maltreatment of any element which is not an Arab a non-muslim in the region of of their country just to give you an example of the cords and Assyrians in Iraq, the Jews and Kurds in Syria the nun Muslim blacks in the Sudan about the million will Massacre then the cop the Christian minority in Egypt the Christians in Jordan and Libya the berbers in Algeria the black slave trade in the Arabian Peninsula not to mention some Universal persecution of the remaining Jews in diesel and what the emergency is a disturbingly regular and Consistent pattern of Oppression of Love standing brutal proportions of the Monera peoples in a Muslim minorities in their country. I don't think so. But these matters as regardless of the intensity with which people view them of the moral outrage that very often rules. Do you think mr. Friedman that these matters will be topic form any negotiations or the Geneva conference? I doubt very much. I think I agree with you because the 77 is realpolitik. We don't have ideology and realize that more than anybody else. The Arabs in the South as use it and we we know the day. I'm in some meat might be cynical remark and I don't know how it will help the world economy, but it takes knowledge to grow oranges and to expose them, but it doesn't take anything to a point technicians come in from doors from your country. That brings up, of course the very touchy situation United States is in with the with the politics there. We are increasingly dependent on OPEC oil and within that Arab oil and if push comes to shove, I wonder what you gentlemen think the United States will do which side we fall on. You can draw an optimistic and pessimistic scenario the pessimistic scenario is of course the kind of the domino theory of the Taiwan and South Vietnam the Americans come at this is where I go. I'm a pessimistic Optimist though. I I even was real politics, which is how many cases immoral because you sacrificed many high-value is including human rights and Justice and all that. I think that the truth Political interest groups in the political interest of the United States and the Soviet Union is to keep Israel going on a slow fire was difficult is harassment with attempted dehumanizing and debasing that the political identity like United Nations resolution regarding Zionism is racism or explain Israel from UNESCO for archaeological excavations Etc. Still did the political calculations are such that friend since the United States could not have a fit in their world if it wouldn't be there. why why because there's no. They wouldn't get from Israel directly what they will get from Israel in directly by the United States and the latest discussions by political leaders. I think testify to that. I think there's a little yeah, okay in 56, they received the Eisenhower pressure on his brain from the side light switch in 67 was created by the respectable United Nations soldiers. So that NASA can encapsulate is what was the soldiers in 74 because of American president. Who was the sign I wanted sign I to a quart and obviously that America can There was wouldn't get there. Otherwise. I don't think it's right but them saying that this is the political constellation. I don't think that American foreign policy right now with regard to the Middle East would permit a showdown situation a high noon kind of situation. If it comes to that I my assumption would be that the Carter machine and Carter's foreign policy advisors from speaking of Brzezinski to Secretary of State fans will declare that their policy was absolutely bankrupt. I'm not saying mind you that that will not happen. I'm saying that that would if that happens that would be the South accepted label that American foreign policy has failed now short of that then one possibility is it to a for a conference to occur? And for the Arabs to realize that American position is this and that America will declare itself for the American government will declare its policy failed if War breaks out and if there's Another Oil Embargo and hence will press for more than they could actually get under other circumstances. But on the other hand American governmental policy is to probably to set out an array of a cross cutting ties to the various. Arab Nations such that the Arab Nations will discovered in their own self-interest not to let things come to that pass Now American foreign policy has to be very inventive and not rely on past Arrangements in order to bring that about and I see some signs that that is happening, but you can't tell that that is happening from what President Carter says or from Otis odd Cesaro from what's that. Says a from Megan says that is I'm suggesting that as others have to that everything that's said now a days before the actual conference time is really sad for public. Sumption antiquiet temp quiet tempers and to Lenawee prepare for position before the actual thing occurred identify superpower local domestic pause on a related that America compression Israel. They can present messing on the Arabs except. You know, what you think I was conceived mentioned it but only as a last resort, but it's interesting that the Russians did the long time ago because the Russians set foot in the area Middle East long before the American state. It's kind of interesting how I'm not so magnificent that used to play between Americans and Russians Hussein tried it several times. You won't send me his eyes out by Twenty Russian. It's not easy to buy suddenly Russian missiles when you are American oriented wisdom. Infrastructure of your army helmet and of course, but I think because he pulled them but because they wanted and positive but as long as America Kenneth pressure the Arabs any I don't think they really can and president Assad will prove it this week. When he said no to an Egyptian American proposal of a convening of the foreign Ministers of the respective countries in the Middle East, by the way, I would not be surprised that this was a pre-planned move. So that said that would come out the moderate and I said would come out there that offended. I'm not so sure I wouldn't I wouldn't be surprised if if if that's the case. I think that the point is that they chose that America still has surprises in there or what it did something doesn't have their world in his hand. Was Israel, it's it's it's much more different. I don't think however that the current Israeli regime is in it in the hands of American foreign policy or that America can rely on the Israeli regime. As a matter of fact, one of the interesting bargaining situations is the fact that with the new Israeli government there has been less less pressure that the American American government has been able to put on the Israeli government which loosens the bargaining situation quite a bit more than it was before hand probably because the lines are the red lines of how much pressure can be applied without stiff reaction was crystallizing insect Force much stronger now than in previous years and she is it wasn't so sure people will not sure how much they can say. No for instance in 50/50 is it was a development? I don't remember exactly but afraid to say to say no to the Americans long before the sign I called and they said no and like $20,000 today would have objected to American president might have worked a little while ago. And you said that the United States was going to try to establish cross ties with in the between the our country's what what did you mean by between the United States and the Arab countries this week? We've seen an initiative on the part of American State Department then American government to beef up at 11. He's Army Lebanese regime Now in many ways that the direct invitation for American Arms at to innocence become a substitute for what is currently the case. Where are the Syrian Army? General Lee is performing the role of becoming Lebanese Defense Force now, I'm sure that prime minister odd cents is this is a competitive threat to sirius Newfound maneuverability in Lebanon rejected the idea of a form of foreign ministers conference ahead of time, I'm not sure if I'm guessing. But if that's the case, then the American position is strengthened in a land that's that is the direct area catchment area for Palestinian Liberation Organization all activities and it acts as a double control on those activities Syria to sirius on benefit of the PLO. Guerrilla activity should be controlled and now if the Lebanese Army and security forces are also supported by the Americans and the Americans have gained very important bargaining Advantage Visa V the possible actions of the PLO to disturb or the current situation for 7 and secondly for several years now American policy has very successfully become a substitute for a Soviet policy with regard to Egypt. That's quite clearly the case. And what is also clearly the case. Is that the Egyptians now? Are relying on American foreign policy not alone forearms. Not at all that but with regard to supporting the general Egyptian economic infrastructure together with the Saudi Arabians Saudi Arabians together with Saudi Arabian capital and American direct and indirect technological Aid that can be the only salvation for the Egyptian economy. Now this results in a three-way tie between the United States Egypt and Saudi Arabia, it becomes more and more inconceivable to Egyptian rulers at disa. So. Especially that a middle eastern War might break out and destroy the very Concrete Network of social economic and political activities that have been established in the Middle East in the last within the last 5 years. And that the more that goes on the greater the chance for a bargaining Arrangement that where the Middle Eastern situation will be resolved sounds to me like what you're suggesting is that the solution to the problem might not come at all from a negotiations between Israel and the Arab countries. I think this is rather between why do Bettas was an Egyptian Trade union formed about the Middle East and he said they asking what does you solution to the Middle East company said she's all I do is real in other words, like this will suffocate slowly and this is a question every piece that they suggest to Israel and I said I could easily countered back to counter attack and attack and say I I personally believe that the More sophisticated in the more developed infrastructure comes the less interest the domestic forces within their countries will have for extremism and then we can really see forces of motivation. It is still interesting to see their the effect of Arab leadership take it. He's still really want exactly to that point several is raised here on a very informal basis. We tried 3 and the in the last months in the Forst time to establish some dialogues the debates dialogues with the Arabs. Look we're going back to the Middle East to live together or not together. Let's come sit together know each other talk about the problems. So, of course, I'm media on the radio TV and the newspapers. They always say that whatever they want to meet with these Rays whenever we try to actualized and we twice set up meetings for specific times dates houses and hours. They backed off and 5 minutes before 12, and they always Are there we like to 11 Egyptian told me last week. He is no deal and talk was honest and I completely agree with what you said that if anything would happen. It's not face-to-face with my of the United States. Well in a sense then the Geneva conference doesn't make too much difference. Does it? If one occurred, it would almost disguise the enormous amount of backdrop not necessarily behind the scenes but behind the settings hard work that would have proceeded it in all likelihood. If it would require it would occur after most if not, all of the government are pretty clear sense of which way the the agreements were going to go. We don't have a whole lot of time left in just for the few minutes remaining. Let's try to move back to the discussion of the Palestinians which we began with and And I guess I'm struck by the comment last week that. The Palestinians were driven from their country by European folks who came in set up a government based on European values. Not not to Middle Eastern values. And the fact that Israel today does not have good relations with any third world countries. and the Palestinian Arabs who live there now. Conceal themselves as a minority group within their own or with in what used to be their own country and say what they want is a pluralistic secular State. We're all residents have equal political rights. And what's wrong with that is a concept. Look. It was religion in the 19th in the 1977. It's politics than Jews had to convert now. I just have to abolish Collective political identity the danger the slide in such verbiage is simply because they do not mean what they say the Arabs always say that now we want the secular Democratic State. Well, I will have you know that utopian dream of living together. But they want to clearly abolish all Collective identities that another group wants to home. It's it's a very difficult position to be in for me because I I don't want to tell the Palestinians what to do. I don't want to tell them look you have the right or you don't have the right to self-determination self-determination definition means that I do with myself with my group what I want but with somebody else tell me the Nazis, of course at the Presidents by the finding another group, but this is exactly what they were trying to do. The West is undermining. It's not misunderstanding ever mentality the strong Corporation, especially for Israelis. The strong Corporation did the Arabs had was was The Notches in the second world war physically Not only was meant to support but physically helping to liquidate use the boss is hard to know how how to accept that these people. Look what they've been seriously generation. That's that's exactly the problem that he wanted me to come up with the usual Israeli response that we have a long memory and a long second or back and it looked mm. We enjoy the spies out history goes and unfortunately for me, it's shocking. Who is the establishment of Israel and with the desire to have an independent state? We are still living in a state get as far as the Middle East is concerned. And I also add that the movie. The altar revolutionary era praise usually is not secular state, but the full phrase is Progressive secular State estate which sounds after all very Democratic Progressive and eye contacts is I sure you not the same as Minnesota progressivism the word Progressive use with a capital P is quite similar to the equivalent Russian word that comes directly out of Stalin. It's not even leninist ideology and it means quite specifically a regime which is dedicated to a course of temporary or tentative some amount of multi pluralism. That is in Soviet Russia during Stalin's regime that were so-called big Russians little Russians, ukrainians poles and someone but we're ultimately Search multi nationality would give way to a singular form of ethnicity and all-embracing type. I know I'm bracing type and that was the specific meaning of the word Progressive which then Finds Its way through varieties of ultra-left revolutionary third world ideologies to that of the Peloton Palestinian Liberation Organization organization. Where are the word Progressive secular State specifically Maine's state. I stayed under the political hegemony all the singular group so long as it's to the that's a long as it's to the advantage to your article 20 from the Palestinian national Covenant. It says that the claim of historical of spiritual time between Jews in Palestine does mitali was historical realities know is the constituents of stated in the true sense Judaism in its character as a religion of Revelation is not a nationality was an independent. Likewise that you was on what one people with an independent personality that rather citizens of the states to which they belong this is exactly the attempt to be Zion eyes to deed you guys coming through with it and what the Arabs live in separate State. I don't want to them. I don't want the Arabs to tell me was I'm Jewish and I am allowed to live in a collectivities of Jews in Israel or not. And I don't want to tell what the Palestinians dimension for themselves the denial of other people and it's a speculation on my side, but it seems to me that when the Palestinians will become a nuisance to the Arab world and the. Some signs that they are there was one of the first to discover them the conflict in the Middle East is not between Israel and Palestinians. The conflict in the Middle East is between Israel and Arab Nations and the Palestinians looked at so many statements the Palestinians look upon themselves as part of the Great Arab Empire the Arabs want to Rejoice on the great Empire that they had the since the 7th century and they want it again. And Israel is in the middle of Israel is viewed by the Arabs is being essentially Western type of the members in Nigeria. And so are the cops Inc in Egypt. This is exactly the point. I'm trying to make that is no tolerance. I just talked about tolerance and even about political definition. It's a miss the Jews never had good life in Arab countries. How many minorities which remote Arab and Muslim head the very bad experience notice agreement that both the Arab nationalists as well as Israeli Jews recognize the demographic facts that well over 50% of Israelis now are Jews of non-european origin and this poses a distant that is a poop come from Arabian countries who fled because of persecution and this poses a problem to the doctrine that there's some kind of an alien race that now is inhabiting Israel of former Arab pure territory. That's just not the case might also mention that the doctrine of these ionization. The doctrine of these ionization as an ounce to buy Palestinian Liberation Organization is the ultra-left equivalent of the Nazi doctrine of the protocols of the Elders of Zion. Concept. You are subhuman you don't have a right to exist. I would I would still like to see a sign of a tolerance of a western concept of sitting together of Corporation because of good prospects to a conversation between Israel and Arab. So yeah, but the marriage depends on two sides one side is not enough. We are willing but the bride is not also for the sake of this discussion and then I'll during conflict that is understandable in the uniformity of the either side of both sides is very often magnified. Are there many Arabs have many different kinds of you points if that I'm very unfortunately. I cannot be publicly expressed and they're the things are not as monolithic as they seem to be if the world only had A breathing space a decent civility. I think we'd be surprised by the amount of friendship. We would discover on all sides have two guests today have been dr. David cooperman University of Minnesota sociology professor and Robert Friedman and Israeli citizen who is in graduate work at the University.