On this regional public affairs program, there is a discussion on residential burglary in Minnesota. Burglary was the subject of an intensive study by the Citizens League recently, and the League issued a report entitled, "Suppressing Burglary."
Studio guests E. Gary Joselyn, chair of the committee which wrote the report, and Calvin Clark, a Citizens League staff member who assisted the committee, provide details of report and answer listener questions.
Read the Text Transcription of the Audio.
During this hour of programming will be exploring some aspects of residential burglary in Minnesota. Burglary was the subject of an intensive study by the citizens League recently and the league issued a report entitled suppressing burglary. Just this past week Our Lives Studio guess this morning or Gary Joslyn which are the committee which wrote the report and Calvin Clark Citizens League staff member who assisted the committee. The committee has made a number of rather surprising findings about residential burglary certainly some very interesting ones and the committee also has recommended action on several levels to help reduce. The number of burglaries suggestions ranging from those things that homeowners and renters can do to secure their dwellings do legislative action by the state and even the federal government'sWe are going to talk briefly with Gary Johnson and Calvin Clark about the Citizens League report some of the major findings and major recommendations and then in a while, we'll open our telephone lines for your comments and questions about this subject. Erie first of all, why aren't we be concerned about residential burglary how serious a problem is it while I think it is a crime that we need to be concerned about a lot for one reason. It's it's a crime this more apt to happen to anyone of us and almost any other major crime more likely than personal crimes. And yes, I think the odds are something like 1 and 250 are the chances are that you'd be a victim of rape or an assault or something like that. Where is the chances of your being victimized by Burger about 1 out of 25? And that in itself, I think makes it important another. For an aspect has to do with the fact that it is of the psychological effects on the community the fear that people live in in their Apartments if they are in a high-crime area, just the whole lifestyle is it when is affected locking things up being afraid to go out and that never knowing what's going to happen when you come home from work and I tried and your TV settings on your chairs or anything and I know the first thing about people who an older lady who has a nice cabin up north and doesn't go up there because she's afraid that she leaves her apartment on the weekend and will be burglarized and that sort of thing that you can't put a dollar. That is very important. I think if you found in your in your study of this that burglary is on the increase. Certainly, it is measured both in terms of absolute numbers. And in terms of rates the rates have increased dramatically in the last day. Well since the last 10 years. Do you have some figures on what the in the last fifteen years? We had a four-fold increase and since the end of World War II we had a 9 fold increase not in the total number burglaries, but the actual rate and up to that point. Where is Gary mentioned? We now have the chance of 1 and 25 of being burglarized. How come Why is the Great increased number of factors for this one thing if you just look at the demographics of our population, we have a far larger percentage of juveniles and I've had any other time in our history and burglary it turns out is a crime primarily a very young people starting at a very early age much earlier than we would have been dissipated. For example, we found that looking at the rest records in Minneapolis. And st. Paul you had 236 many arrests for children under 10 years of age issue did people 30 and over and so it is a phenomena of the young person speaks out at about age 15 or 16, depending on the year last year. The largest number of burglaries were committed by arrests were made of people 16 years of age. How come my young people get involved in burglary? Well, I think it's a it's a nice seemingly low-risk way to augment your lifestyle as a teenager. and Where is it may not be all that profitable for an adult for a teenager. It's a way that they can gain material Goods get things to sell for money to upgrade their lifestyle without the and a great deal of risk in this ties. And I think back to your other question. I think it's a point. We need to emphasize the point. Why is it so important to study burger? And I think that for my way of thinking of the most important reasons is it is an entry professional in the to a life of crime. It's a way that the young people get started in crime. We know that they as they get older there aren't very many adult burglars. They've either that or then and left crime and have gone straight. So to speak or they've graduated into more serious crimes as a person and so far but it's I think one of the important things about Burgers is it's a way for young people to get started. To a criminal career before our committee mention that after a while he found that it was too much of a hassle to steal goods and then have to to go to a fence and turn them over and fuss with turning it into cash and he found it was far easier to pick up a gun and go to a liquor store or something and get the good stuff cash directly another fella. We talked to remain in burglary off and on because he founded an exciting sort of thing, but he soon moved on to selling narcotics because he found that it's just not selling narcotics as far more lucrative. And that's another point. I'd like to make about why people that works out well for the juvenile for anybody committing burglary that we talked to everybody that we talked to pointed out that they weren't in it just for the money. There's an element of excitement and there's a peer relationship because burglary is normally done in groups and particularly for the juvenile. I think the non-monetary sort of aspects of it may play a larger. Golden actually the financial rewards get from the goods they take that would be a rather difficult problem to deal with when it to get into the juvenile. Groups and try to encourage them that that's not really the kind of thing. They ought to be interested in Gary or I'll certainly it would be and it's so much a part of of the culture for a lot of juveniles not all of them, but We sometimes don't understand it when people are operating this way. They're operating in consistent with their culture and it seems that way to us with one individual told us that he got starting Burgatory because his older sister's boyfriend's rent a burglary and it provided a way for him to be a part of the group and they kind of accepted him going along on the burglaries and then he came to work in other ways. Another Young fella told us that in his peer group doing a good burger or you're getting a fairly substantial amount of goods burglarizing. The night before was a Prestige item and his group it was almost as important to have scored. Well the night before as with another group scoring a touchdown in the football game. So you get that kind of phenomena and that's very hard to deal with a bigger old is that aspect of it play it it sounds to me like no matter how many lies you pass or how many people you put in jail that aspect of it is That is just going to be there no matter what. So how important is that where I think it's very important or three reasons why people don't commit crimes when does their own inner ego strength says that's wrong. You don't do it. The other is it if your peers knew about it, like if we were to do you and I are to do some very bad crime. We've probably not want to do it with just because if you are I knew about it, we would that would turn this off and then the third is the constraint of the society. What says it will bring sanctions to Bear walk for the juveniles and and pickling the ones we just been speaking about the first two are missing their there is no legal constraints and pure culture in practice is contrary to society's expectations of it in the only deterrence. Is there sanctions that Society from the outside can bring to bear on and after that that burger is a crime which is very difficult to solve and to get convictions and even find out who did it. It makes for a mix that results in a lot of juvenile burglary. One thing we found that there's two aspects to burglary depending on where you are in as far as your career in crime or whatever for more people burglary is a crime of opportunity you do something because it's very easy to do the opportunity presents itself. I you walk by a garage and see that it's open and there's a bicycle in there that you would like to have in. It was a nine-year-old to go in and you take it and nearly all of her burglaries. Take that form on the other hand the older person who becomes a professional and really gets good at it and so on it then becomes picks out targets that he sees a great deal of profit to be turned and heading and in that case you have them going after people who have a great deal of wealth jewelry for whatever but it's entirely different number I sent to such a high percentage are these crimes of opportunity? There is a real opportunity to discourage burglary through doing some things in the way of security Calvin did the league finding it study that the extent to which that second type of burglary is a problem in in the Twin Cities area. We did talk with a fellow by the name of Robert Barnes some of the root people listening may have read and some of his books that he's done on burglary. He is a Master Burger. There was a series ran the Minneapolis Star about his activities in the Twin Cities very clearly. He was hitting targets that offered him a great deal return for individual burglary. That is the rare exception and talking with numerous law enforcement people on talking with attorneys and talking with everybody in the system. We came to have the strong feeling that this kind of individual who really picks at Target is really very, well. I know you have this kind of individual usually he's working with a setup man generally called a 10% man who does a lot of work figuring out. How's the best way to do it but doesn't take the risk of actually committed the burglary himself. So, excuse me. I was just going to say that the a lot of the young people we talked to who were more active did case places out in like RuPaul's how they would drove through the neighbors neighborhoods in the fall and sort of a noted but the house configuration was like and then they went back there during Christmas vacation to find the homes where people would had obviously left for the holidays, but they had done some then picked out dick her house, but they spent a lot of time getting to know the neighborhood and and with the idea that they would go back during the holidays when they assume the number of people would have gone on vacation since rings of a young burglars like you describe fairly common in the Twin Cities or is it most likely that it will be a single individual who acts as Calvin said earlier at on a crime of opportunity impression that that for the young people who do most of burgers at most often is is done in groups. Two or two and three four people working together. So that's really what the individual has to try to protect himself against is not the professional burglar who will carefully go in and look for just the finest pieces of silver but a group of young people who will possibly look the neighborhood over and see which article are going on vacation and then you can't keep that professional out. Anyway, if you really want something that's what they always say well, Let's talk just a little bit more about the process by which stolen goods are. LOL, there are three main actors in in this drama. There's the burger who takes the goods. There's the the fence who are the middleman distributor and finally the quote upstanding citizen who ends up buying it all of these goods and that people don't understand this or I should say, it doesn't come to their awareness. It doesn't seem to me all these Goods end up back in the possession of somebody usually an ordinary. Otherwise law-abiding citizen. And it's a big business process by which all this happens and you need all three you need for the system to work. You need the burglar you need the fence and you know also need to find me the person who's willing to pay money to buy the goods are several things that makes the fence particularly attractive as a Target to try to go ahead and come in when you're attacking but one thing is that while there are many many casual fences and my little things affect probably most burglars do some fencing of their own goods and are somewhat involved in fencing but apparently there's a group of about 2235 depending on who you talk to well-known large volume of professional fence is operating in the Twin Cities. Apparently, there are never pleased apartment to metropolitan areas list somewhere tucked away. They know who they are many of them in operating for years and years and years. They've operated almost free of any fear of the law. They've been able to do this for years. It's very difficult to make the case against the fence. We see a number of things that can be done to up the risk and lower the profitability the fence and we think these things ought to be done it just an attractive way of trying to deal with the problem is eliminating the market for the goods. There is one small part of your report here that the caught my eye than it seems to fit very nicely in this little part of the conversation and that is how the political process relates to fencing and there is a sentence in here which has known fences invariably can be found at Major Municipal fundraisers. One of the people who testified noted that these individuals tend to support nearly all elected officials and this can contribute to the fences respectability and influence. well That's a tough one to you know, how to really get to very a red ass because then we didn't have the either the investigator a world with all her the time to do that but it was our impression that what was important and wasn't that the that the fence on the politician but that it really upped his Prestige among the criminal element to be able to give the impression that that they were close to the politician. It was the The Prestige among the criminal element more than any idea that that the politician was in their pocket kind of at an idea that seemed to come through to me. Would you agree with that kill people who attend branch in Saint Paul mentioned on several occasions that the tapes that they took of the Freeman stores when before they were caught and prosecuted the Freedmen's were constantly referring to their connections downtown. And of course, I got a great deal of play and transcripts of some of that appeared in the news media and so on and with this is it played out to whoever those friends were they didn't show up for helping a mini when they finally got prosecuted but it did a great deal for their image the fact that everybody just accepted that somewhere tucked away was some strong friends who were going to come to the rescue at the Twilight hour and it just didn't happen. And so the key thing was that the apparently they had this street image of having very solid connections and City Hall whether the politician is in the pocket of the criminal or not, if the if the criminal has some influence on the political process that way such as for example, a lobbyist one might wonder how strong is the fence Lobby up at the state capitol how pervasive is the influence of offenses on our elected officials. Did you come to any conclusions about that? Not really. I I don't think it'd be hard to to make a new old value statement on what the what extent that occurs and I don't think there's any organized group of fences as such in a lobbying the at the legislature only have to disclose their location that involved a person who has been convicted of fencing and who were the police at least it felt for a number of years was very active in fencing that individual at the revocation hearings was represented by a former mayor in the city and We were told that that former mayor had contributed to the campaigns of all the councilman including the present accounts what that time who was talking with her committee? And he said that he couldn't help but think that the attorney who represented that particular family in that particular fans the fact that he had been so deeply involved in the political process had an effect on what the city council in fact did so there is that kind of relationship. Sears Kenmore through the licensing and and that's for the business than any other way. moving on then to the third participant in the in the burglary ring that you discuss the person who steals the fence and now the person who buys, what about those folks well, It reminds me of the campaign. We were recently have seen a lot of on shoplifting. I was kind of surprised when I first saw my first billboard that says shoplifting is stealing. I didn't understand me. What purpose that had while we were told that that campaign was quite effective in helping to reduce shoplifting because apparently people weren't aware of the fact that it was actually committing a crime to take something out of the store. Well sort of the same thing with the burglary only worse. There is a a feeling in the community among many many people that to get a good deal on a something that stolen is is perfectly fine and we were told for example of a clothing dealer who had the reputation around the neighborhood of dealing in stolen merchandise while I want to find it came out that he he really wasn't dealing in stolen merchandise was thinking we distressed merchandise that he was getting Cheap prices at citizens around there were Grand happy they had felt that they were being ripped have been ripped off because they thought they were getting stolen good. There is an attitude that you can that if you can buy something that's hot and get a good deal that you're really that that's fine. Nobody thinks through the two steps back to the fact that that was ripped off somebody's house. There's that pure group process at work again here with the burglar initially the groups of young people and out with the adult people who buy the stuff and who feel that there who think of themselves as law-abiding citizens. And one thing I'd like to point out very clearly. If you buy a good that you will have adequate reason to believe this. One you're committing a misdemeanor. If you buy Goods that, you know to be stolen you're committing a felony and if you commit to of those misdemeanors where you think the goods are probably stolen or have reason to believe they're stolen within a year that becomes a felony. So you definitely are breaking the law when you buy Goods that you believed to be stolen and yet this has a tremendous appeal. We were told that the mafia on the East Coast started making fake Omega watches and then Call them like hotcakes as being stolen and so they had a great deal Market those same watches. You couldn't give it away for half the price to a store but as long as they were represented as being stolen course, nobody came back and complained about him not working when they bought him off. Somebody's arm off the street thinking that they were Hard Merchandise. And so there's this whole phenomenon. We had one of the police officers who was monitoring the tapes from the Fremont when they made that case mentioned a teenage girl who called from the storks are over France on him. I'm down at that hot Goods place and really laughing and it was a big thing that this kid was in buying a from the hot Goods Place. Well, there's there's there's something wrong where this kind of attitude for bails. And I think the public just needs to start not only realizing the breaking the law when they buy Goods they believed to be stolen but also there helping generate the burglaries the armed robberies. The whole variety crimes are committed. To acquire the goods in the first place One More Story along that line. One of our committee members has a neighbor who's a police officer and one day they were chatting over the fence and the police officer had bought a new CB radio for his car and what they were discussing this and so forth. And at one point in the conversation that played officer said, they probably could have got a better deal if you would have got one of those hot ones but they're not they're kind unreliable and you never really know for sure what you're getting the point being that even the police officer wasn't Debra cuz moral constraints that he got didn't buy a hot one. He was just a little fearful what the merchandise to be like And it was that kind of attitude yet. We got a long way to go. Who's actually hurt by burglary economically, you talked at the beginning about the psychological harm of a burglary people being afraid to go out not knowing what's going to happen to when I come home to him, but most insurance policies seem to pay up fairly. Well on burglary except of course for CB radios and tape decks which now are generally written out of insurance policy or television sets clothes and stuff is all pretty much covered the real victim of burglary tends to be those communities where you've got a migrant juvenile population and fairly significant numbers like your model cities areas Summit University. Their number of areas were the burglary rate is far higher than it is in the rest area at those same communities tend to have rental properties both single-family and multi-family and it's in these areas where you got rental that the people tend not to have the insurance and you also tend to have a much much much higher rate of victimization. And so the people who are really getting clobbered financially by burglary. People who are living in these neighborhoods in a rental situation. How effective are police investigations and government prosecution's of burglary crimes. That was one of the things that I guess surprise me and that is that the burglary investigations by a larger brain unproductive the one of the burglar investigators from the Burger Division told us that he had something like 1,200 cases referred to him during the course of a year and he felt that if he could. I was lucky to clear somewhere around ten of those. And that's not very very high rate the idea we have on television of a crime occurring the investigative going out finding all the evidence and then going back and deducing who must have done. So there's no way it happens at all almost all burglaries that are clear dark because they were somebody was caught on the scene by the street officer or after someone was caught on a scene later confessed up to confess the burglary the idea of them actually solving a burglary after this occurred. It is packed. It never happens one of the distressing things. Is that a great deal what's being done in many communities about burglary is primarily a public relations. I find burglarized. I want him to come out and control me so that usually somebody in a squad car send out right away and they say nice things they take down information for insurance forms and so on generally they don't take anything look for fingerprints. They generally don't do much interviewing of people in the neighborhood of might have seen something until A very minimal effort at that point and the number of police departments including most the precincts in Minneapolis. It's then overnight gets process and put on the desk of somebody who is a burglary detective how he comes out and he felt out exactly the same forms. He may have a half a dozen different cases. He has to do that day so he can do no more than spend 10 15 20 minutes with me chatting about it and controlling me. He doesn't have time to take Prince. He doesn't have time to chase around the neighborhood if he did it's not likely to produce too much. And so you have this phenomenon of this one probably one very defective detective who said that I'm lucky if I get 10 cases a year that are made on the basis of my work. So what's a very very counterproductive kind of effort and the detectives involved seem to indicate that there is a tremendous amount of frustration. And of course, it creates a tremendous morale problem within the police department of doing something that is dead end is following up a cold burglary. What's causing the burglar is caught and in the end is prosecuted and it's a juvenile which chances are it will be how effective is the criminal justice system then in dealing with a juvenile and turning them away from committing similar crimes are going on in the crime Commission of other crimes. We do know that the success rate with juveniles. If you look at the total population, this is quite good most you look at the figures about how many times people will juveniles have been into the juvenile justice system. And you find that one contact is the most common it is discouraging. However that there are a few juvenal's who have very high rates of recidivism again, and again and again come back through the through the system. So then answer your questions for most of the systems, I believe Works quite well for the great majority of juveniles for the hardcore. It isn't working. There are not deterred they continue and I think one studying Boston show the something like 6% of the juveniles are responsible for 52% of all the juvenile property crime, so It's those. Hardcore repeaters that we don't seem to be able to get to that one thing. I'd like to point out in Minnesota juveniles are found guilty of felonies. They're found delinquent and Minnesota's code. And I think it makes a lot of sense in some ways is directed towards providing treatment that will help that juvenile with his problem and the kind of philosophy behind it is that you don't want to do anything more to a juvenile then as necessary to get them back into the mainstream of Lego behavior and help them overcome the problems and following this kind of assistant what happens you may have two kids two are both taking part in the same crime. They're both are guilty the police arrest them. They are brought before the court in the one case. The one child has parents who are living together who love the child who are very attentive who want to do everything they can to get the child back in the mainstream another case the child this unfortunate and not having both parents living with Are there may be some other problems in the family and older brother may be in Stillwater or something and the judge feels that the family environment isn't going to help the child. And so the one child was merely released to his parents and hope that that'll take care of the situation and the other one is given some time and confinement because of these other factors until what happens is that the judge isn't punishing the crime the judge is punishing the child in the situation surrounding that child and that just runs 180 degrees contrary to most accepted principles of psychology that says that you punish the act and not the individual and so we have some bad situations coming out of that and the juvenile never sees the justice of only doing the minimum amount you have to with individual to correct the situation all he seizes the juvenile a got off with what seems to be no consequence in juvenile be had the wall falling on him. And so what's content Be a sham and there were a number of horror stories to us. Maybe Horrors a little bit strong, but we had one thought would work in the public defender's office for a number of years and he was he was an example of a juvenile who he had defended who was 17 years old. He have been convicted of a number number X on fences that would be felonies for adult use before the judge again. I'm not the judge of referee and as the testimony came out it was very clear the juvenile with Ms. End and but he was having some problems with his parents and the referee found the kid and it was very clear. The only reason to referee a time to get dla was the fact that he was having trouble at home and he felt he needed to come under the jurisdiction of Court said I was just outright. She said I was just turn to the kid and I said look, there's no way the judge will uphold this referee's decision. We're going to come back in here on a pill that and you'll be off and I'll never be held against you and it gets it don't bother. And the attorney said like I couldn't believe it. He said what do you mean don't bother said I said don't bother I don't want to come back. Should I couldn't talk the kid into a peeling? So we took it and we got a suspended sentence and placed on probation the kid turned to me and said see I told you it wasn't worth the hassle coming back in court another day and the attorneys reaction was good God if this kid preferred to take what would be a felony conviction if he was an adult rather than having to come back and Court one additional day what's going to prevent him from going out and committing a felony that's going to hurt somebody this afternoon and that kid did have some violence in this background. So that wasn't at all unlikely until this is kind of the phenomenon of the problem with the juvenile. Our guests are Calvin Clark Citizens League staff member and Gary Joslyn charity Citizens League committee, which released a report this past week called suppressing burglary. It is now a better than half past the are and we're going to give you a chance to telephone in with your questions and comments on the subject in the Twin Cities area call to 911 222. If you're outside the Twin Cities area where you have to make a long-distance call, you can call us toll-free at this number 800-652-9700 800-652-9700 for those outside the Twin Cities area 29112 to 24 those in the metro area will take just a brief pause here while we get a couple of phone calls on the line. Okay, we have a couple of callers on the line. Once again the phone numbers in the Twin Cities to 91122 too and outside the Twin Cities area. 800-652-9700. Our first color for Gary Joslyn Calvin Clark is on the line. Good morning. May we have your question, please. May we have your question please this morning. All right, I guess we lost that one. Do we have another one yet? There we are. Go ahead in the morning. something I live in a pretty bad part of town that if someone selling a stolen money for that are selling a used good quality. Is there any real explanation for that or it's just a mistake? involved Well, this is just exactly what we were talking about a few minutes ago. For some reason other some people if it's more than the economic saving to buying something stolen people do for some reason have a preference for stolen goods. And this is the sort of thing that we hope the public attitude will turn around and change, but certainly that's consistent with our findings. Alright. Thank you very much for your call. Do we have another one on the line on? Yes, we do. Good morning. What's your question, please? May we have your question, please. once a lifetime one year One Chance in 25 in the space of the year, right? And obviously there are areas of the city where it's greater than he is worth less. I was sober all Metro average in 1973. I said he was done comparing the Minneapolis model cities and the community of Richfield at at that time. They found that you were 19 times more likely to be burglarized in the model Cities area than you were in Richfield. Do do the police always a report to the FBI would compile these statistics evenly across the area. Well, we found a good deal of difference there to that. Sometimes the place will not report Burgers as burglaries. They met in order to make their record look a little better report him as a test from public building or some of this type of larceny the Bureau of Criminal apprehension people feel that that there may be up to 28% more burglaries committed then that are known to the place that are actually reported as such I think another listener is waiting with a question. Good morning. May we have your question, please? I was just wondering if possibly or what your opinion would be about increasing the liability of parents civilly for the torts of their children. Now, it's just $100 so you were to increase of the 5000. Felt it has been increased in the last few years from $50 to $100. We talked quite a bit about this one of the problems is that a number of people told us that it's not infrequent for a juvenile to commit burglary and other crimes is a way of getting at their parents. And so it's questionable as to just what the net effect would be of making the parents were reliable and one of the people who was from the insurance industry pointed out that really what you're doing is making the parents insurance company more liable in many cases. We frankly didn't know how this would play out. We talked about it a great deal and we didn't and the final analysis make a recommendation in this area because of the lack of certainty of what would be the net effect. What we do have is a number of recommendations that are geared to add Fair reasonable consequence to the juvenile. That'll make sense to him and make sense to society. Another listener question now, good morning. May we have your comment, please? Hello, you're on the air around the year and signs what kind of looks just because they're cheaper. It seems like if we can eliminate the market out there than the probability that the best but there's been no organized public affairs of public information effort to just bring home. The fact that when you do buy stolen goods when you're committing a misdemeanor or felony and to you're doing a great deal of harm to the community somehow people don't I think recognize either that they're breaking the law or that they're doing a great deal of harm. Are most stolen goods fairly readily apparent as such or are they sometimes carefully disguised as being used or whatever? I don't think it's always that obvious when you're buying stolen goods or not seen is it most of us don't ask we got a good deal. We made me wonder and the cursed one of the reasons you don't ask cuz you probably aren't very confidently ask you to get any way, but they don't talk about that. The word is I've got a good deal on a good television or what have you and you sort of assumed it still ain't been nobody knows. Yeah end their number of clothes if you get something that doesn't have a new item and it doesn't have a warranty if the supplier of it isn't somebody that would normally expect to have this kind of good. Yeah, there's just a lot of telltale signs that lead you to suspect that the situation is likely to be stolen and unfortunately today rather than playing down the likelihood that it might be stolen. Usually the people Petland stolen goods accentuate this possibility because that gives Credence to why it's a good value. I think we have another caller on the line. Good morning, please may we have your question helping profession and concerned with how we might be more alerted to the the pattern of behaviors that suggests that though we have a kid that died at his excitement. Gary do you want to try that one? Well apparently there is some challenged to this there is we all of us have a good feeling about meeting a challenge. It's a little difficult to surmounting it and sort of coming out on top. So to speak we all get rewards from that whether to be criminal activity or any other kind and the kids do too we had a number of people talk to us about this from the young people themselves who almost invariably testified to us that it was a lot of excitement. It was a source of a good deal of pleasure to make a successful hit and so forth to police officers who had in one case had staked out a place and And when they do vandals assembled there in the police could overhear them football game. It was a very exciting they had pulled the job off and and they were all very thrilled and paint each other on the back and it was just a big a big plus. At 8 I guess I don't know how you get at that. It's just a cultural thing with alcohol consumption among people. It's one of the things that we do it might not be good for us, but it's so deeply ingrained in the cultures. I think you have to be careful. You don't get the idea that we have. Well if we could just substitute other exciting things and it would go away because I think that's been tried enough times that we know. That's it's not so simple that one can just give them some other culturally good activity and that therefore they won't do the criminal things. We did find that the child who doesn't have a successful experience at school the child that doesn't have a successful experience with his girlfriend the child who doesn't have a successful experience at home is more inclined to need this kind of reinforcement and to turn to something like burglary for the reinforcements then if they are able to function and reassuring successful way and other a Text wife. We have another caller on the line. Good morning. What is your question, please by several companies and refused by many companies because of having been burglarized. Yes, I wish I had and I should have brought along the telephone number now. There is a federal crime insurance that makes brute cram Insurance available to all homeowners and all businesses at a fairly reasonable cost in this is only been available the last few weeks and thumbing through our report hoping I can find the number. I'm not sure I will lend you have that number at your office. Yes. Our office number is 338-0791. And if you'll call me and I'll have the girl at our switchboard on Monday have that number for you where you can call in and inquire and get pedal car insurance. It is available through any insurance agent now, I'm not sure because it's so new that the insurance agents are aware that they can now provide this federal crime insurance, but it is available and if you can't get insurance agent to get you the insurance, there is this watch number in Chicago that you can call and you will automatically get that the federal crime insurance at a fairly reasonable, right? Our next questioner is on the line and may we have your comment please a person commits homicide victim. I don't think there's any that we found much of that kind of relationship to which you refer. We do know that younger people tend to be more active in the local community and their local neighborhood and that is people young people get older and give access to cars and become more sophisticated in their burglary activities that they will then move further and further away from their home territory. But but most of the young people tend to operate freely close to home simply because they know the community and they're not identified there is strangers and so forth victimization studies compared the number of times people have been Burglarized the multiple number of times and they then statistically projected how often this should have corgard uses a hat when stands and it was almost perfect. And so they can put a good coming out of that that it is a completely random situation that nobody except when you get to the very wealthy individuals who are targeted because of what they own and people know that they have a certain ring or they have birds or whatever that short of that point. It appears to be a totally random situation within a given neighborhood at a given time. We have another caller on the line with a question. Good morning. Yes, you're on the air. The purchaser I've been victimized before and I'm wondering where or how or what are the typical means of selling stolen goods Stoneridge for sale? Where do you find stolen guns for sale different places? Generally the two different primary mechanisms. There's the Casual fencing that maybe the burglar himself or his immediate Pierce. That's a very informal process. Somebody who works the swing shift that are filling station may be willing to pass on to his friends where he knows where you can get a good buy on a set of tires or a good buy on a used TV or whatever. And so it's a very unofficial informal kind of arrangement on just apparently a tremendous amount of the fencing does take place in this kind of a casual setting. We've been told by both Minneapolis Saint Paul policemen that there is no bar in their community that there isn't some cashola transactions taking place that involve stolen goods generally among the patrons a little not always the case. So it did happen to the most what happened this casual kind of a setting on the other hand. There are these professional fences that we had mentioned earlier some of them operate retail outlets. So it's very difficult they have I'm legitimate Goods moved right in with the stolen goods and clearly the person who's operating on a high-volume who's targeting after Jim's orrefors or whatever. They have professional fence Outlets that operate on a very sophisticated manner as opposed to this casual wear to mouth arrangement. Some of you may have that I've been trying to call in the earlier and found the line's busy. I think there are a couple of lines open now in the Twin Cities area. So if you want to give us a try to 911 222, we haven't heard anything from people down in Southeastern Minnesota, and if you would like to ask a question about to the likelihood of burglary in your part of the state 800-652-9700. I'd like to we don't have very much time left and we aren't going to be able to get into the recommendations you making it much detail but to touch on the subject a little bit what kind of individuals do to make their own property their own dwelling is more secure. Well, there are number of immediate steps. First of all, a lot of people are Burger I simply because they don't use the locks that they do have a lot of burglaries occur through an open garage and unlock front door while you're out watering in the back or run to the corner grocery store or whatever until you you've got to use what security devices you do have and then a second step of most homes don't have such a simple procedure is a deadbolt lock. Now, these aren't very expensive. I think the last couple days we saw I saw add and yesterday morning paper advertising on sale for 899 down from 1399 or something. So it's not an extremely expensive proposition to install a deadbolt lock also very very little effort you can have Penn Arrangements established in your windows that hold that you can open them to in without having to have the lock a voided. I also think that within the home you can hide quickly valuable things like one of the first things I did after getting this committee's I started hiding in our silver in the house and which is means somebody could possibly find it but they would have to be there quite a long time. Most Burgers don't want to stay too long. They come in quickly they pick up what's obvious and they leave and if you have particularly valuable things if you could secure them some other way, it's also extremely important not to advertise when you're not home. You need to keep your lawn mowed. You need to keep your walk shoveled. You need to get have your mail and papers picked up one of things that would be most effective is when you're not home to have some kind of a timer switch having your radio on during the daytime if you're going to leave a light on which is a good idea or maybe a couple lights one of the best places to leave it on as in the bedroom almost never can the burger. Look in your bedroom or expect to be able to look in your bedroom. And if they knock on the door and you don't answer but there's a light on in the bedroom. They don't know but what you were reading and fell asleep and that if they get inside you made be there in one thing the district manager with the burger. He's going to avoid if it all possible be in that in the house the same time you are and so anything you can do to give the appearance that your home certainly is a plus. I think we have another caller on the line. Good morning. You're on the air. How to make a comment and then I have a question. I think the gentleman shouldn't be reluctant to use the word Horror Story and regarding that situation that he always lying cuz it to me it really is a horror. I was wondering if you would like to comment on who and when is respect and what is responsible for the continuance of this kind of and what are possibly the prospects for changing in 1976. I think there are a lot of opportunities to change the way our criminal justice system works primarily because I think it's universally accepted that change is required. We found judges number people who we thought might have been resistive to some ideas. We had really been quite receptive and we have a number of specific proposals for changing the criminal justice system the adjudication and prosecution we feel that when a person gets arrested that a lot of discretion is exercise before the person ever comes before the court. We think that ought to be standardized right now. You may have six different officers all taking the kid home to his parents rather than arresting them because he's a young innocent chart of individual and they don't think that he's really been involved very often but some sort of procedure ought to be available so that they know that this has happened before and the second time this happens. He will in fact be arrested and will be brought before the prosecutor. So a number of standards and guidelines need to have happen at the Restaurant level at the prosecution level at the court intake level we do feel At the first time of individual comes before the court at a hearing that that's pretty effective right now two-thirds of the kids never show up again. The second time till probably the judges are doing something pretty effective. Just the back there before the judge with their parents and it's a pretty traumatic kind of event following that we feel that the second time a person is before the court after they committed one felony and they're there for a property offense at an absolute minimum loss to require that they will be involved in a restitution program that does get them in a good-faith way restoring as much of the damages they can do and if they don't comply with that restitution and some other situation, they should have to serve sometimes if they don't play along with that program third day we feel but after a person's been there three times. We think that at least some kind of mineral confinement out to be required and finally, we have a recommendation that after five separate distinct separate and different time intervals convictions. Offenses, that would be a felony for an adult if the individuals over 14 years of age. They ought to automatically be certified as an adult and have to serve stand trial as an adult without the protection of the juvenile system. I think we have another caller on the line. Good morning. What is your question, please we were told that it is a good deterrent mainly from not that they fear that they're going to get bit so much that they they commotion that the dog causes in possibly one of those small barking sort of dog rather than a large one that might actually take a chunk out of somebody's life several people were very split as to whether it was desirable to have one of these big potentially dangerous dogs. They had the feeling that probably more damage is done by attacking the wrong individual and accidents within the neighborhood then the good drive from the protection the dog might provide. So at least some of our people felt it was far more important that you have a noisemaker than you have a vicious animal about the electronic security systems. It was suggested to us that unless you have a great deal of valuable and are less you're very much fear full of burglary that probably they're not worth the expense adjusting a monetary standpoint. I know their hand up your reassured having that then probably a you've got to take that into consideration that we had Robert Byron's the Master Burger. I referred to earlier before a committee. He noted that there was no security system was going to keep him out. But the things that cost him the greatest frustrations is where it came up to a house that had a sticker saying they had a burglary system. He said then I couldn't find it to compromise and he said that would take me three times as long as if I could find the security system and so he indicated perhaps the things that cost him. The greatest problem was a sticker without us system. We have time for a few more callers. Good morning. What is your question, please? Determined at least in the juvenile burglaries the ones that aren't sophisticated whether or not the Goods return to roughly the same geographical area in which they were stolen and if they did return today or you would it make sense to make your people who are licensed by your cities to perform different services to copy down the serial numbers of the items that were stolen because if you can do this, then you can create a hassle to the consumer of the stolen goods and if you create enough hassle for him, you're going to dry up the third portion of that scheme. Well, we certainly one of our recommendations is that the operation identification be continued and be intensified. We really believe that all citizens should be part of the operation identification. They should have their valuables in their homes Mark to those identification numbers. One of the worst problems that the police have in making a case protect against the fence is being able to prove in court that the goods in fact belong to someone other than the person who possesses them know one thing that we should clarify is the serial number you have on a product electric mixer or whatever is not proof that that belongs to you. Generally those serial numbers are used to indicate what components are in that particular product and maybe the batch number at the particular Factory, but they're not unique numbers except in the case of automobiles work required by law. One of our recommendations is that particularly vulnerable items to burglary and theft that Congress ought to require a system of cereal? Membrane, that would be unique that could be used in law to establish when I go to stolen you are right that goods are probably likely to come back in the neighborhood just simply because the individuals taking the goods usually are people from juveniles from the approximate the same approximate neighborhood and very often the fencing of those goods takes place on a peer group level. So they're probably dealing with peers who are also living with in that neighborhood one quick question for you how effective have have operation identification program has been around the country. There's a split but I don't know what degree the split is really represents a difference of understanding or whatever there is evidence in Minnesota that you have 3/4 of a chance of being burglarized. If you are enrolled in operation ID and have the sticker and whatnot on the other hand a number of studies been done nationally the team to suggest that communities who will participate Operation ID have had not one iota difference in the amount of burglary committed. What's the Jesse's that if 50% of the people in the neighborhood are enrolled in operation ID their likelihood of being burglarized would be decreased by 3/4 and the remaining 50% would be increased by that same amount. And so nobody knows what happens if you get 100% of the people involved in weather would be effective at that point, but certainly for the individual it is effective. We have run out of time here or yes, sir, Calvin Clark Citizens League staff member in Gary Joslyn, which are the Citizens League committee, which did a study on residential burglary that report released this week. We want to thank all of you who called in and participated with your question the technical director for this broadcast was Lynn Cruz with production assistants from Kate Williams. The time now is 11 and we'll be moving on in just a few seconds to voices in the wind father to 12 noon by are doing summary of the news. This is listener-supported Radio.