Ever since the Arab oil producing countries stop shipping crude petroleum to the United States during the 1973. Arab-israeli War Americans have lived with the words energy crisis appearing almost daily newspapers and magazines on television and radio the crisis has been reported on probed analyzed and researched almost it might seem endlessly much of what you'll hear today. You've probably heard before but the purpose of this program is not to say it all again, even though you might think that in the first 25 minutes or so. What we really want to do is give you a chance to tell some government officials and private forecasters what you think to ask the questions that are on your minds as a basis for this dialogue and introduced the thoughts of a couple of our studio guest we're going to start with a brief look at the history and scope of the problem with nationally and in, Minnesota.Also projections about the known and discoverable reserves of petroleum have been around for decades. The impact of Fine Art Supplies didn't really strike the lives of most Americans until the oil boycott in 1973 for the virtual shut off of Arab oil other foreign producers found that American and European markets were eager for oil it substantially higher prices than had ever been paid before either of those higher prices. However, Americans were still not getting enough oil and the people were told they have to change their living habits. I am asking tonight that all gasoline Filling Station close down their pumps between 9 p.m. Saturday night and midnight Sunday every weekend.This step should not result in any serious hardship for any American Family it will however discourage long distance driving during weekends. It will mean perhaps spending a little more time at home. This evenings alone is only a small part of what we have to conserve to meet the puddle gasoline shortage. We can achieve substantial additional savings by altering our driving habits. And therefore the third step will be the establishment of a maximum speed limit for automobiles of 50 miles per hour are nationwide. As soon as our emergency energy legislation passes the Congress the Congress responded to the crisis by lowering the national speed limit of 55 miles an hour instituting National daylight saving time in the winter months creating a new federal agency and passing the much-delayed legislation to build the Alaskan oil pipeline. In the latter part of 1973 there were debates over gasoline rationing which came to be favored by Congressional Democrats, but was opposed by the Nixon Administration which implemented instead of fuel allocation program gas stations across the country receive 10% less fuel than I pump each month in 1972 to spread their supplies across the entire month gas stations are open fewer hours and they sometimes limited purchases to 5 or 10 gallons many states follow the example of Oregon with soul gas to individual drivers only every other day, even with these measures people in some parts of the country waited hours in lines many blocks long to buy gas stations ran out of fuel near the end of the month and couldn't sell any at all until their new months allocation arrived thousands of independent gasoline stations were also forced out of business since they were unable to make purchases from the major suppliers. Independent truck drivers were grossly upset by the shortage and high cost of diesel fuel the 55 mile an hour speed limit and regulations by the Interstate Commerce Commission occasional trucker boycotts in some states led to a Nationwide strike by independent truck drivers in the early part of 1974. The truckers were fed up with what they saw his manipulations by the major oil companies and the government 11114 it for diesel in St. Louis, Missouri here about 3 weeks ago but costs are kind of outweigh in the income a little bit right now. Why should we? Us operators sit here with our trucks parked and let these other guys run up and down the road and this is what's happening in this is what's causing all the trouble within 45 days. We have everything all settled. Then we could all go back to work and make a little bit of money. Maybe then shut down. Bella Terra Nae Nae do we got an A out there? If you get the feeling that the politicians are giving you the kiss of death, you couldn't be more right these turkey necks and I am talking about Nixon and I'm talking about Governor Anderson and I'm talking about Simon & Schultz in Hague in Dunlap and Saxby and the whole damn bunch of politicians with over the state capitol. The strike ended in February when the government agreed to let truckers raise their prices for those for several weeks the prices of diesel fuel Exempted trucks from the band on Sunday sales and promised to Congressional investigation into the causes of the crisis. The trucker's skepticism about the shortage was shared by many other Americans. They thought in large part that the petroleum shorted was contrived a clever plot among the Arab oil producers in the American oil companies to squeeze more money out of the average person's pocket public doubt about the shortage was an issue the government had to Face Time and Again the burden of energy conservation of cutbacks and inconvenience of occasional discomfort continued concern is not I can assure you an artificial one. It is real. If we should choose to believe that our efforts in fighting the energy crisis or unnecessary, if we permit ourselves to slacken our efforts and slide back into the wasteful consumption of energy, then the full force of the energy crisis will be brought home to America and I most devastating fashion and there will be no longer any question in anyone's mind about the reality of the crisis. We must act now as one people to do the job that must be done. With the proud dedication we Americans have always displayed when confronted with great challenges we can and we will achieve the great goal of project Independence. Where energy is concerned we the American people. Shall be the sole masters of Our Fate. Well that was in 1972 in the US imported roughly 30% of its oil far from moving in the direction of Independence. However, the u.s. Is now more Reliant than ever run for an oil supplies with about 40% being imported and the public still has its doubts about the genuineness of the shortage after 2 years of speeches projections and warning a recent survey by the Federal Energy Administration shows that only 45% of the public accept the view that the shortage is real. However, that is 10% higher than a year ago. Here are some comments on that skepticism from some people would rather diverse political and professional views first Brian Coyle a long time and he wore leader and social activist then Mike Murphy and energy researcher at the Upper Midwest Council and Luther Gerlach an anthropologist at the University of Minnesota. And finally John Mulholland who is director of the Minnesota Energy agency, I believe. That we Face an energy crisis. I don't believe it's the simply cuz we're running out of finite resources or anything like that. At least not now so much as it it stems from the whole. You know, I'm Monopoly control of the resource by major corporations, even though I don't think that the major oil industry people are at fault and all of this they did extract their ultimate pound of Flesh during 1974, when they took every cent of Revenue they could out of the American pocket by raising the prices to the ultimate level. I think in retrospect they probably wish they hadn't done that because that in itself is made a lot of people mad and suspicious at 500% increases and profits and even this year people bemoaning the fact that profits are down 50% which makes them 250% over two years ago. Well, I would say that in part it is contrived and part. It is a manipulated thing and in part we are being lied to Nothing is ever very simple. The Arabs manipulated part of it for their advantages that other OPEC countries, but in part they faced a real problem of using their there are a non-renewable resources and selling them at a discount. Right? Although there are certainly has been some profiteering and there has been some maneuvering of shortage conditions that underlying all this there is a very severe supply problem. It's a supply problem that has been disguised in part because the recession which caused the normal industrial demand for energy to have been less than it otherwise would be But we're facing in Minnesota and we're facing nationally increasingly severe energy Supply problems. And before we get to the 1970s, we're going to be encountering shortage situations far more difficult to deal with than anything we've seen in the past as the economy returns to normalcy. We're going to get the industrial demand for energy and ends in a much stronger fashion. We have in the past were also going to see as worldwide inflation cools down that it's just not going to be possible to continue to spend 25 billion dollars for crude oil imports and then need to reduce Imports because of what it's doing to our balance of payments will become more severe. It's going to be just a matter of are not having the natural gas or not having Petroleum products that we need by the next year is probably going to be here when we're going to have to make some hard energy choices if that's not made this year. We're going to have to decide as a nation whether we're going to disperse these rare energy supplies by using the market system. That is simply letting the price go up until the people who have money can buy what's there or whether we're going to use some regulatory system where there is some determination by some governmental entity as to who gets the available supplies or some combination of the two that's an issue that just simply going to have to be faced. There's no other way to get around it. However, the other experts agree that for the moment this winter minnesotans have little to worry about the immediate future in Minnesota is relatively better off than other states Northern Natural Gas provides. About 90% of the natural gas used here and it expects to have almost as much natural gas during this coming winter. As it has had last year the other five 10% comes from Canada and Canada has indicated that it will have no curtailments during this winter season. Although the Canadian price is very high. So in the natural gas area, the short-term Outlook is not scary. However, if we would have a long a cold spell then we would not have the the availability in the market to deal with that condition. In terms of the other energy source that the we rely on heavily here. We have some problems. So that is all are petroleum products. Here's to the supply situation at the current time is is not the difficult. Now, we have some spot shortages in the propane area by and large are gasoline and fuel oil and residual oil are available to get us through the next six months. The real problem here is not the winner of 75 76 the real problem here is the year of 7879 and 1980 and Beyond single source of energy. The state's dependence on oil will become all too apparent by the late 1970s. We get about 46% of the energy we use in the state from petroleum products about 60% of this comes from the four refineries that are in the Minnesota area, please Four refineries rely almost entirely upon Canadian crude oil and the Canadian government is curtailing its exports to the United States, probably 78 or 79. The reductions will have proceeded to the point where they will not be enough to keep these for refineries in business. That is a deeply serious energy supply problem. And although it is not one that's going to affect us this winter. It's one where we must take the steps immediately. If we're going to get the construction done to provide the alternate crude oil supplies for those refineries, which are slowly being depleted The Firm expects to furnish significantly less fuel to Minnesota by the end of this decade during the short-term the estimates of Northern Natural are that supplies. Go down about 5 to 7% a year. If you look at the whole length of the next 10 years, they're expecting something like a 40% decline over what currently is available. If there is no new source of natural gas. That's a developed during this ten-year. Then Northern would be curtailing virtually all of its interruptible and the firm customers except for the very small commercial and residential users. There are going to be major capital investment required by some companies. Some of them won't be able to make those Investments. Some of them will be able to I think we're going to see a. Of time where we'll see I think some unemployment as a result of this. I think we'll see some companies that actually go out of business. I think we'll see some companies who had plans are growing and expanding its operations will Cease those plans were canceled them in the short-term because they will not have to have the capital to do it or they won't have the energy to do it. And Minnesota Ave. 7778 that. One we will be facing both a sharp drop in natural gas supplies and also the possibility of severe interruption in terms of petroleum products. So that's the the the spot that we need to keep our eye on and developing policies that will avoid or minimize that energy crisis in Lacey the state government in the energy agency and the legislature having to face some very difficult decisions would sort of our like having to pick the kind of poison. You least likely die from Mike Murphy and John milhoan predict these consequences if the government and the private sector's take no action. If we were to do nothing, we would lose in combination about one-third of the current energy were receiving now. There is a great capacity of a high price to pull in energy from the moon or at least from some great distance. So to say that we would have no way of getting that loss energy would be an overstatement the fact that the energy would be so desperately needed in the Minnesota would mean that a lot of people would be willing to pay a very high price for it. I think the other consequences are different kinds of social chaos, you know how prices affect people on low incomes and fixed-income some people who are unemployed it affects people who can't use mass transit to go to work these kinds of sections of our society are going to become terribly upset with government. If we don't begin to plan now, we now have government reacting And the time of reaction for government is so long. The problem is going to be with us before we can find a solution people are going to be mad. They're going to further just trust in and be very upset and unhappy with their elective officials. I think this is going to cause it just it sort of I'm more of an erosion between the general public and then our governmental system should know where we're going to lose even further faith in their ability to solve problems with kind of made a mess out of the debate in the dialogue in and instead of having bipartisan approaches to solving energy problems in Washington. We have the the federal government of the administration on the one hand from holding political Advantage for this we have the Congress on the other hand playing as other political advantage and the two are at odds obviously because one's democratically-controlled me one republican-controlled worried to a knife this urgent 10 year program for energy Independence. Within 90 days that is by mid-april. Now, what did the Congress do in February about energy? Congress did nothing Congress needed time I said What did the Congress do in March? What did the Congress do in April about energy? Congress did nothing at the end of April the deadline set by the Congressional leaders themselves. I deferred for still another 30 days II $1 fee on imported oil. Even then I still hope for positive congressional action. so what has the Congress done in May about energy? Congress did nothing and went home for a 10-day recess conceivable good. What to do for a family to receive a 75 or $100 tax rebate? If at the same time that family is required to pay 250 to $300 more. During the year for gasoline to get to and from work. and to heat their homes This program would be inflationary. It would have hit the average family hardest. And it would contribute to a worsening of the recession. Before we resort to higher gasoline prices to reduce consumption. We should consider a more moderate approach. That's might include gasoline rationing. Yes, this day's excise taxes on high-horsepower vehicles. And any other measures the Congress May deem advisable as an anthropologist mean the things we often do as we look at it another Society only say hey, they have this interesting ritual activity. And what's the real meaning of it? What are they really doing it for we can say, you know, what real I really are people having all these conferences and meetings and talk about energy policy but never in resolving it can I would say that the Manifest function is to arrive at a policy in the latent function. The real function is to act and talk and manure me not to come to a decision because we don't because almost any decision is going to be wrong. It could be we're not planning cuz I know it almost any policy may be upset. This might change in the world supposing. We have an energy policy which begins to him over the short-range to put the heat on OPEC. We don't use as much imported oil. Right? And we really press ahead with Cole another development. Well, we can't control it opequon do in my over the short-range room movie flood the market with oil. We put all this money in this other stuff and all of a sudden now energy from those sources is very expensive and oil is very cheap making a jolt in the price of oil goes up again and it felt like a yo-yo. We can't control those variables. So here we are trying to have a national policy is if we nationally can be independent and really dictate are they all our own terms in a world in which the variables are so extraneous. Clearly this situation is complex. But is it hopeless one might ask? No, I don't think it's hopeless if we all sit down and try to take a look at not just our self-interest. How do I pay my own pocket or how do I protect myself that's on a personal level an individual basis, you know, I think businesses have to do that too is a big difference between what a business needs and what it wants drinks and we get short of natural gas. We're going to have to figure out who should get her who shouldn't but I can ask a business in town. Do you really need it and he'll say yes and he'll make his case even though it doesn't really need it. But it's the cheapest fuel available. So why not get it because if I can use cheaper fuels my can produce my products cheaper and I can be more competitive and make more money, you know, he's going to wear that business is going to have to start thinking of the other interests of other people. Let's start talking candidly about what are good uses and what are not good uses. I think we should maybe take a look at Princeton not providing Natural Gas Service new service to anybody whatsoever in the state of Minnesota that unless they can prove that there was no alternative available to them and I don't think anybody can prove that if we can generate the political will then I think we can make tough decisions but it's going to take the input of people who will take to mine a greater interest in their own individuals. Now, there's a problem and individuals are acting and they're acting in different ways. I think we need more information about what individuals are doing and I think we see that over the short-range we've had individual change. What does that add up to a reduction in the growth rate of energy consumption? I seen that have three opinions in the United States today about individuals. One of them is that individuals are basically a bad say and they really are selfish Lycoming it out and they're just going to go like gangbusters on the use of energy or something. Therefore we have to do it for him we have to plan on How to organize it we have to do it we have to have that policy cuz you can't kind of pump people to do it. Sometimes they're very coherent and how they say they're still say that the individual choices Michael decisions than individuals make use Dad up there good public decision individual choice to buy a new car bin card to live in the suburbs all that led to growth which was good. Now those same decisions add up to a bad public decision everyone on his own using his car then he wants to doing what he wants adds up to pollution and other problems. You can have two other possible. He is going to one with me that sure people are basically selfish but the sum total of Southeast Smith not the new Adam Smith, but the original Adam Smith another view any other view is it people really are basically good and if they know the facts and trust that gets back to your first point. Do people really believe is energy crisis the truck drivers knew eventually there was one most them knew that over that we really had one at that moment. But they also believe that they were not to be being treated equitably. And that really bothers American maybe most people and if they think of somebody's profiting then you really have problems. That comment by Luther Gerlach anthropology professor at the University of Minnesota concludes. This is first pre-recorded segment of our energy program, by the way, if you tuned in just a few minutes ago expecting to hear Studs Terkel today studs will not be broadcast because of the special Statewide live programmer doing on energy. The Studs Terkel program will return next Saturday at 12. We're going to introduce the various guests. Inlay studios around the Minnesota Public Radio Network in just a moment. But before we do that, we'd like to pause for 10 seconds. So that each local station in the system can announce the telephone numbers, which you should call if you have some comments or questions about energy will make that 10 second pause right now. Listeners in the Twin Cities area and Rochester should call to 911 222 that number 2 9 1 1 2 2 2. You are recognized from our Saint Paul Studios the voices of John milhoan end and Mike Murphy John millhollon is the is the director of the Minnesota Energy agency and Michael Murphy is project manager for the future choices energy program at the Upper Midwest Council and the third guest in our Saint Paul Studios is Gary Moore architect with affirm bergstedt Wahlberg breakfast and roll call Gary has a particular interest in solar energy and other alternative energy sources that are guests here at accn studios in Moorhead is dr. Duane Dahlberg associate professor of physics at Concordia College. Dr. Berg has expertise in the area of nuclear power generation, and he can also speak to questions about the generation of electricity from coal and transmission of electricity over high voltage power lines. He's particularly interested in the debates and study. What's the guide to call development in North Dakota? And the rest of the Opera great plan? We're glad to have you here this morning. Dr. Daubert. Do you have any comments about the thank you. I might just say a few words. The real problem is in the debate between energy Supply and environmental degradation. And in our country, we find that the use of energy goes up two or three times the the increase in populations and also on a on a worldwide scale something I guess if we're all aware of but we sometimes forget the fact that the United States uses about thirty or forty percent of the world's energy and it has only about 5% of the world's population. Thank you, dr. Dahlberg. And now to Dick daily and his guests at wcsd studios in Duluth decc. Yes, I think of John and good morning are we have two guests that are Studios Mister Aaron's fan bolt who was the vice president for corporate planning a Minnesota Power & Light company based in the load who tells me that empty and they all is in very much the same boat as most other electric utilities in our part of the world and I trying to meet the future load demands and that they are facing some particular challenges and coming up with enough energy to meet the needs of the expanding taconite industrial potential of copper nickel in the resource-rich northeastern corner of the state. Another interesting thing mtnl is involved in is the wind experimentations involving her dad's Honeywell trying to make a electric electricity from wind power also on hand. This morning is Gordon Levine a geographer from the University of minnesota-duluth who has I might be expected. Interested in the geographic problem involving the availability of energy and some parts of the country and consumption and others and the garden tells me he has been putting particular emphasis on the education of young people in the nation's energy problems. And the with that will go back to Bob Potter in St. Paul. Okay dick and we haven't even had heard a word from you yet this morning. What is it from the architectural standpoint? What are your interested as you might tell us about that before? We have a great deal to do with consumption of a great many buildings in that that are developed in the United States and prediction in the state of Minnesota. And I think if we are not concerned, I think we have a very serious problem because we are some of the first people who should be concerned I think personally and we've been sort of energy gluttons for the last 30 years and we're going to Go on a diet and it's a matter of either way go on a low energy diet or we suffer obesity and died. And I think it's a matter. We have to react we have to stop reacting I should say and we have to start acting. Unfortunately the American public they have and the political process particularly has a great to adversity to act because it always that means you got to stick your neck out or as reacting that usually a lot more easier because the the influence was already there in the directions that you shouldn't go to be politically popular already exists. And unfortunately, that's what's gotten us into the problem we have now and see what happens if the same thing for architecture as well. The Architects are pushed in the same same kind of way. We have to react independently, I think and do something is worthwhile. Okay, we have our first caller on the line with a gentleman from Minneapolis. Good morning. Hello. Yes. Good morning. You're on the air what two? Billiards back Mondale Humphrey and some of our second follow-up one When is the Taylor School busing for integration, it's been proven not to work now. And it's way too much of our energy. When are also I believe another Midwestern Congressman supported the building of a pipeline down through a lot done through Alaska and Canada end of the Midwest other senators and congressmen supported it moving into the West Coast. So I think you might have that turned around a little bit but we see now however, is that the congressmen and Senators like Senators Jackson and magnussen from Washington who wanted the oil coming into the West Coast now don't want to build the offloading facilities in their own stay so that we in the midwest can use the oil if they could be brought into this area. I think on the second top ego energy and bussing or energy for any other kind of thing must looked at be looked at in two ways. There is some feeling that we should have busing in there as course. I'm feeling that we shouldn't have but it depends on what you're trying to achieve. You can only debate the bus in question in terms of energy consumption on the basis of energy not on his social mirrors for integration or other things like that. Alright. Thank you very much Mike and thank you for calling now. We have another Question around the line hero gentleman from Minnetonka the morning. A good morning call one speaker said that we have been energy gluttons in the past and I think most people give some thought about how can we save some energy? I feel like there is one area that is particularly easy. And that is to just slow down on the highways. I'm upset that I see very little in the way of enforcement on the part of our government officials and I would like to have some of the gentleman on the in the group that you have their comment on that. Thank you. John Malone has I drive and I've seen the same kind of cars and occasionally trucks of whizzing by it faster speed. So I have the same kind of concerned that the car has there has been an increase in enforcement and there have been an increase in the number of tickets issued for speeding. So I'm although there has been an effort to enforce the lower speed limit. So I'm certain that there people who are feel like the color has that these efforts haven't been as energetic as they could be. I think if there's evidence to the number of traffic fatalities and accidents is down somewhat as a result at least in part of the reduce speed limits. So I hear some some guy like that girl yoga. I just like to make one let one comment that all seems like all of this got to leave ever heard is a fact that I know week. We are always looking towards the law or where are we still looking towards the government or looking toward some agency to solve the energy problem for us and I think let's face it. This is a very highly personal thing you are going to have to decide I'm going to have to decide if we're going to we're going to solve and to use less, you know, we can't sit back and say okay. I want to drive 70 miles an hour and find out until you tell me I only can drive 55 miles an hour. And then if I do that that I'm a very good citizens why I don't think you can take that approach you have to say we have the problem and it's up to me as individuals to follow some suggestions for rationality using some good common sense and Bob I think that the Gordon Levine here in our Duluth Studios have some comments on that point as well Gordon. Yes, I like to say a few words about the American Consumer is being a glutton I think it while it's obviously true much of that gluttonous a part of the American Consumer eyes come from various kinds of policies that the US government has implemented over the past 50 years since about 1920. There's been a constant progression of laws being passed that provided very inexpensive petroleum, very inexpensive natural gas. And we let our consumptive patterns developed based upon that now and I find herself coming up short today. Oh, wow. I think that all of us can try to save energy on an individual basis of we can also look for the government to pass various kinds of laws that will provide some stimulus for that turning of our growth curve in terms of energy consumption. It might be nice if we individually slow down to 55 and we become concerned when somebody dies by us. It's going 65 or 70, but that's part of the Equitable comment that I made earlier in the program that Americans don't like to see that happening. And if you yourself are willing to slow down to 55, I'd guess you expect everybody else to be willing to slow down to 55 to we have another caller on the line here gentleman from Minneapolis. Good morning, sir. Good morning nature energy conservation in new buildings about 80% savings and cooling all the typical buildings is very easily achieved and would reduce the life cycle costs for owners, but developers have no motivation to use these simple techniques because profits from sales aren't maximized this way. Have you any suggestions to strengthen the buyer's position with regard to functional aspect of homes and exactly the same comment could be made with respect to major appliances and possibly automobiles. That's it. Well, I guess at 80% figured I think that's so you could do that. That's pretty good. But I think about the only way that we have a method of the only method we have of exerting influence or pressure upon it are people who Supply us with buildings people who supplies with products is through cards and letters and public information. I trying to right the right these people tell them that that that you're concerned about it then that you would like something that is different. That's their business most these people are very very sensitive to the public requirements as we can tell right now all of a sudden for like air conditioners, for example before it was always the fact that our air conditioner was much cheaper than your air conditioner. And now we find that overnight virtually because the Public's demand for the products of has changed has become an energy conserving at what is the most efficient air conditioner that the manufacturers are very sensitive for that and they will they will they will change. It's simply a matter of we have to exert some pressure through the political process and through the simply riding to these people and telling him what I'm telling him what your feelings are to try to change the market for them to come in on that. This is an important area where energy can be saved because the energy through space heating or cooling Minnesota has done some things in this area of the state has the First Energy Efficiency requirements in buildings. So there has been some recognition of the importance of action hear. The energy agency is proposing Legislation during this coming session that would require the retrofitting of insulation and other winterizing weatherproofing standards on any home at the time of sale so that we would get into these homes that don't have adequate insulation and get work done. We're also proposing that the there be an implementation of a program that would provide More energy construction and insulation in schools. I also labeling a bill as far as a gasoline mileage efficiency and performance standards for air conditioner. So this is an area that some real Headway can be made some work already underway. We should go farther. I just like to be done this type of thing is exerting influence in the political process is exerting influence on this manufacturers, probably more than any state in United States and I agree. I applied the Minnesota Energy, It's probably by far the most comprehensive comprehensive an effective energy code that's been passed the United States and I think Minnesota and I think we often think they are doing the best but I think when you sit around and take a look at what other states are doing, I think Minnesota is a very very well-off I think. We have another caller on the line here was the for the question gentleman from Minneapolis. Hello? Hello. Yes, I certainly can we've done some auditing by that we just walk through and looked at homes to find out what kinds of changes could be made and some very low-cost or no-cost at all changes can be made in many homes that will produce substantial saving saving us from 10 to 30% can be made in most home simply by lowering thermostat. So by being more careful about keeping doors shut the closing off portions of a home that aren't used and those types of steps. Like you had a recent conversation with a man from Fridley the other day who's playing that he in for his his his neighbors went together in jointly bought various kinds of materials to use in their home to improve their energy efficient insulation and window stripping and in a lot of other things too and they make sure she has some economy by purchasing purchasing it jointly, but he made the remark that he has spent some $1,500 on this home and it would take him roughly six and a half years to realize his investment to say that it would take him 6 and 1/2 years to see the amount of money that it cost him to do the work in the first place. One of the basic problems is the inability. I feel of people I don't care if it's government business or individual to understand the difference or the relationship between the short and long-term. If you're willing to spend money today a couple hundred dollars worth of insulation in your ceiling is going to save you twenty-five $30 a year, maybe so if you want to spend $200 right now over a. Of 8 years you're going to get that money back or even 50 price of energy continues to rise but you have to look at it in that way. You can't say that I'm going to do it now and I'm going to get the money now it's going to take time and you have to understand that your view of the future is terribly important here. Even for companies companies can spend a lot of money and save a lot of energy, but if they have a short-term view of the world of they're not likely to spend the money if their interest now is maximizing short-term profits in a difficult economic. Rather than maintaining a strong economic trend for themselves over the long-term, then they're not likely to spend the money just the knowledge that you can receive money through energy conservation does not necessarily make people save energy. They have to make a basic decision that they're going to take a look at the long-term savings. Okay, we have another caller on the line here. Good morning. Hello. Am I on that store energy is the ultimate source of energy for the Earth and view of this fact. I do think that we are putting enough time money and effort to developing solar energy, which would keep us from just burning up all of our natural resources Like You on call which can be very valuable. But my personal feeling is that at last a long last we are finally spending spending some money in the Soldier Field. Unfortunately, I think we're not spending enough. I think of we real really realize the gravity of the situation and the potential of solar. I think we would be spending a lot more. Will you be spending less and developing a fusion reactor which has horrendous Technical and psychological problems with it and spend some of that money on something where the technology is not nearly as difficult to achieve as in solar and try to promote advances in Assonet, which would allow allow a mass production of a particular units in the price to come down and for us to really make a you so this is kind of product solar it I think it's really only received any kind of serious recognition with a solar heating cooling demonstration act being passed in 1974. And that's really about the first official governmental recognition add to any magnitude whatsoever of solar and I think it is going but Think we can go a little faster than that question. I have to be considered that is in the future but there are some problems with it. One is the the energy density that's available at the at the ground level and also the efficiency of the various devices used to convert the solar to other uses. I think there are some very very good uses a scale in the heating and cooling of homes and such things as that but to plan on developing this for for any electrical supply for the country. I think I would like to comment on that one particular point a matter of fact just yesterday. I was reading the fact that the government her. I believe has just fun of a 1.2 megawatt electrical Generation Plant. Arizona and what plans make a 10 megawatts unit by 1983 there are problems, but that ain't there are problems with anything. It's just a matter of when we look at the problems. Are they within reason to be able to solve them in a in a short time and I think we're not talking about any any exotic technology to be able to utilize solar to a great extent. Obviously when you get on certain things certain types of applications and you're involved in a great deal more sophisticated technology, but there's a lot of available right now and then we have the technological ability to a great many things. Now, it's in place. We need to provide my life basically economic impetus to I get to able to utilize it probably wonder if this would be an opportune time to have mistress and both of the mtnl since we're talking about alternate kinds of energy give us a little update on where there wind power generation experiment stand. Electrical power system one of the problems with wind power is that is not reliable. And so it's looked at at this point as being an alternate Source or substitute source for capacity and electrical generation equipment, which could be called on when the wind is blowing. It does give the opportunity. However to conserve energy that is natural gas or oil or call when the wind is blowing in Fort Lee on an annual basis. We could predict the amount of energy available. So this is another area that one of Utilities in the alternate means of generating power. How far along is that every right now? Wow, there's a grant from earlier which is in effect at the present time and we expect these studies to be completed sometime next summer and if proven theoretically feasible on an electrical power system, then we would probably proceed under another grand or application for a grant to erga to put in a demonstration project. We received a number of calls from listeners in the Twin Cities area. I'd like to urge people outside the metropolitan area to call their local Minnesota Public Radio station. I'll just announce please telephone numbers here for reasons of a Simplicity. Minnesota to ksgr should call 363-7702. I was in the southwestern part of Minnesota 37222 3/6 blisters in the Fargo-Moorhead area to kccm should call 299-3666 and listeners in northeastern Minnesota to wcsd 7283657 would like to hear some of the comments and questions from people outside the metropolitan area this morning as well. We do have another Twin Cities area caller on the line. Hello. Yes your earlier. I wanted to ask a question. I'm planning to build a new home out in the rural areas next year. Is there someplace where I can get some information on Energy Efficiency design in instructing the house? You could write to the Minnesota Energy agency state of Minnesota Saint Paul and we can give you some information at least as a starter and some references to where you can go from there. Thank you. Okay, and now we have another caller on the line this one from Edina. Good morning. Good morning. What the citizens feel? And as I think that is that as long as my home is warm and my car is running. I just won't worry about the future and something will happen to take care of us. What can we do about that? Guy gets into place the political right? Maybe I can respond. I'm not sure I agree with the Assumption in the question certainly at the national scene at the energy has been the dominant issue that Congress and the president have been talking about and I will grant you that there was an awful lot of talk before anything was done, but I think that the evidence of the last week is that the system is working after a protracted discussion. There was a fairly odd genuine Omnibus Energy bill has a number of very important provisions and it here in Minnesota. The governor Anderson has made a number of of assertive and I think very fine energy policy recommendation and there's been a good deal of action the House and Senate both have a active committees in this area and there are number of very yet. I think good proposals that will be considered during this coming session. So I guess in this area I feel as if the political leadership has been ahead of the public in many areas question to Garden people become totally aware of the energy problem. And in that way they'll be able to recognize various signs as they come along in the future and will be able to provide this type of pressure upon the individual legislators to get action taken in various areas. I think I'll do agree with previous statements. However in that is that there have been various accent pieces of legislation that have been passed how that happened quite important about maybe not so much in terms of the of the short-term problem, but attempting to look at these the long-term problems for example of how are you going to mention that the order has announced a grant for Establishment of a rather major size solar Generating Station in New Mexico or Arizona. It's probably not economically feasible at the current time but possibly a by having a prototype station operating and see how the various pieces of the plant fit together that by ten years from now 15 years from now. It might be possible when the economics of the situation becomes such that solar energy system will be able to be plugged in much more easily than if we wait until 15 years from now to get started on it as a comment to this was important in agree with John milk on this system has work and we seen evidence in the last week. It just worked in spite of itself to some extent I think in the sense that the system works when people in put the system congressmen and senators and governors and legislatures and presidents and others have two. Work on what the constituency has to say congressman and Senators support the constituency they need input from people that input to Washington has not been terribly much in evidence this past year and they've had to sort a lot of these problems by themselves Without Really knowing where the public stands on these things the public for sure doesn't always believe there's an energy crisis those who really even understand what's going on and it paid attention to it. I haven't really provided the input our elected officials cannot deal in a vacuum and come up with answers which are going to be suitable to the public and I think the people better understand that businesses individuals others up people are not dumb in this country. I think that the American public surprisingly according to a Harris poll the other day, which is a very interesting that is very well tuned in with the energy problem. If somebody goes and ask them if they're going to have to input those people who may vote for every two or four years before going to get good sound decisions made here in the future or else we're going to be back in this world of adversary political difficult process. We have a crawler from St. Louis Park on the line now. Good morning. Good morning. Pictures of a significant amount of gas and they want to generate additional heat which in the summer increases the cold on air conditioning when I was the name of this summer. I still quick with some kind of scent Lok device would seem to be quite efficient code existing Stones be equipped with such a device or yes. This is the colors made an excellent point good portion of the as much as a 1/4 to 1/3 according to studies of the gas used by a stove is a to the pilot light since it's burning all the time and there are devices that the electric igniters that would do away with that loss and are one of the kinds of things that we need to do is insist that the store was be equipped with such kinds of starters. We have another caller hear from Minneapolis. Who from what I understand. They have a question that are power company representative in Duluth. Might like to tackle good morning good morning the cost of electricity and natural gas the more that the user consumed. How can this right structure be justified since it rewards heavier use Baldwin Piano. That's what you're there with Sean are incurred whether or not any energy as you these are normally referred to as customer charges, then after that, of course that you're getting into basically a flat I charge for energy. And in fact, if you look at incremental cost you could even lined up with incremental use causing somewhat more regard to the question on Industrial. There is a difference in rates predominantly because the service in many cases it's applied at transmission line voltages. The load factors may be different. Meaning that the uses is the constant Around the Clock versus body. Like it would be in residential and Commercial establishments and to this point at least the basis for making rates has been on cost of the Flying Service. And so even in the reason northern states power company rape case finding this the type of ratemaking was not upset. So as far as I know at this point, we will continue to make race and design rates based on cost of service. I say thank you. But I'd like to erase a comment on that too. And that I don't agree completely with the answer that was provided by mistress and bolt. There is a largely volumetric building at the present time one of the positions that the Minnesota Energy agency argued for in the recent power case was time of day pricing that is a higher cost for electricity that was generated. When all your systems had to be in operation this required the operation of some systems that were less efficient and using higher price fuel such as natural gas or heating oil. We were successful in the sense that the Public Service Commission agreed. There should be a study of a time of day pricing and that study will proceed we were not successful in that we felt that for the largest industrial users. Enough information already known to implement time of day pricing but as part of the assessment of costs, it's necessary to get a more refined billing rate structure that that does indeed a cause persons who are causing the heavy demand to pay for the cost of that additional generating capacity is not a difficult problem in the case of large customers to install metering equipment for residential customers, which would measure time of day usage on an hour-by-hour basis at least would require installation to Courtyard studies of 3 to $500 per her home. So again, you would you would have to weigh that against the fictional savings that might be made by such use but I agree that certain large industrial areas we can look at and I see the NSP was ordered to I study this in more detail and I presume that's based on their findings. They will take some action if warranted. Bob dr. Dahlberg up in Moorhead has a comment to make about this. I think one of the problems that we have it is that we that when we price that these sorts of things we priced it on the basis of what its basis of what it cost us to produce it and we put the essentially no value on the resource itself. If there were some sort about constant value put on the resource and then there might be a better way to to evaluate the the pricing. We have another caller here on the line that says this one gentleman from Duluth. Good morning. What what is your question serve Minnesota has many of them who must have energy to get to and from work and to do their daily business. Amongst other things each person's are the ones who are least able to pay the price of high price gasoline. What's being done in the political Arena will have to be the only way that those people can get around when in fact that they say to me near or even in the Central City area. They wouldn't even need an automobile. But I feel as if there are a number of issues here that are closely related one is the issue of land use planning, which your question race is. The other is the need for a State Transportation plan as we get the further in to dealing with the realities of our energy situation. I think it's going to be necessary to have a estate land use planning in the Department of Transportation. Then threw those approaches deal with the kinds of questions. The question is a question raised. I believe the points he has made a very good. we have another caller on the line here this one from Minnetonka Minnesota, and I'm wondering if if anyone is aware of examples of tax or any other kinds of incentives that may have been used elsewhere to in order to encourage the young the promotion of energy conservation to the public the exact opposite effect was imposed because of the fact that advertising cost for promotional purposes were not allowed as an expense for utility so that at this moment based on that case advertising by utility for conservation of energy is Not an allowable expense in every case. That doesn't exactly answer your question. But it says it's the inverse I guess is what I've seen recently seized by the Public Service Commission Public Service Commission said that debt the utility could not use would have to charge its shareholders are that is for certain kinds of advertising but it could advertise for safety and for Consumer information and consumer education. It didn't say it could or could not advertise for conservation, but some seem to interpret that judgment in that it didn't say conservation explicitly. Therefore, you can't educate or advertise about conservation. I would argue we need a clarification of the Judgment then perhaps one could literally interpreted to say the consumer education means also energy conservation. There's a lot of people can can do a lot in terms of energy education. I borrow you for a long time with the kind of money that I owe. We've been making they can spend a great deal of it. Promoting conservation and more efficient use of energy not even affect their profit. So even if Whit but I don't see the utilities are being barred in this kind of thing, but it's going to take I think some basic decision making changes and philosophical changes within the utility itself before we're going to see a great deal of it. It's in their interest. I used to work for the utility industry. I have good friends in it to who tell me that the the day is long gone. Now where utilities can make more money by building more plants. That's not the name of the game anymore people utilities. If you would rather not build a lot of the plants they have the build these days they can get away from game with get away with it. Well, that's certainly true of cards. The ability are the need I need to build a plant is related to the requirements for energy and being in the northern. Minnesota Wild Thing That We're experiencing is that the back night industry is replacing a natural or industry and Beef requirements for power in this industry are about 12 to 15 * 4 ton of material greater than they were natural or industry so that it concerns me a little bit when people talk about conservation as if that is going to replace a need to construct new car facility. Certainly. We encourage you are advertising conservation. And why would we have been for quite some time? But the fact All That Remains that in a natural resource area and it's an extended I think in manufacturing the need for additional energy is essential if these products in the raw materials are going to move in the marketplace. Thanks you for sure under any kind of economic future. This country is going to experience. We are going to use more energy than we have used today. The question is how much more and how fast is our demand for energy going to go the next several years when we fail to see in the past year in the great debate in Washington is that there are two sides to the energy equation. However, and one is Supply and what is demand the concentration so far has been on raising prices are providing incentives to create greater supplies with the hope that higher prices are going to deflate demand that he cannot make equation for me very true. But it's it's a function of time more than anything in this sense of. Deregulated oil is not going to give you energy conservation today is going to give you a a gradual change towards more deficient juice or the next 3 to 5 years perhaps I think that we tend to neglect and in our business at the whole damn and side of it and I and I personally feel that the that the energy industry energy industry itself is probably been the great in The Collector. In that it is time feel it needs it sit back and take a greater. Look at itself in terms of how can it that contribute towards I think what is a national goal of energy policy that is to house how to use not just energy resources, but all resources more efficiently. I see us fighting private Enterprise vs. Government regulation battles and and the other political kinds of battles like that end in c like the world is passing Us by at the same time as soon as we're fighting the wrong battle and losing the war here. Just one thing I'd like to say from the architectural point of view. I keep I think we need it for the the whole idea of advertising or promoting conservation. I think we need a little more little more to the center of the road. I think from second the architectural Publications, for example, there's one that I never will forget. It was a an advertisement by the utility that had a picture of a wooden Empire State Building. If we don't produce energy, we're going to return to this. Well, I think there's been too much that kind of information being spread out. I think we ought to remember again from the architecture point of view, which is my area. There is a great deal that you can do promoting energy conservation to save a great deal of energy and fortunately not affect anything. You won't even hardly be aware of it is just a matter of that we have to be aware of that of the impact of our decisions have to make you know, and we can we can get both we can have a way of life we have now and less energy and I think one of the most important ways to encourage energy conservation is to tax incentive. Certainly. This has been used to obtain or to reach goals over the past and whether you're talking about household insulation or whatever I write I believe that tax incentives are probably the best way in the strongest single step that could be taken to get the individual American Consumer to take action along a line that we decide is necessary from a policy standpoint. Mike Murphy to do I think on the on the tax incentives and I wholly agree. I think we should develop some tax incentives particularly at the residential and small commercial level interesting ly in the past few weeks and the end up in Minnesota D3 on company promoter. What is called a Minnesota plan, which is a tax incentive program to encourage Industries to invest capital and energy conservation Energy Efficiency program. It's a good idea provides a 25% tax credit and a first-year write-off for industries that would invest $4 for every dollar of energy saving saved energy. They gotta get out of it. It's a good program. I think one of the things that comes out of this all however is that there's agreement among many of the large businesses in the state. With whom I talk about things to say that that we don't need the 25% tax credit to do this all of the economic incentives necessary to do that job are available today and two very important point in even the 3M people I talked to said In essence. Yes, the incentives are there but they felt that this kind of plan would provide even a further incentive now. I just throw it out in the open without making any comment on it. I think one points interesting about this broadcast so far is that the debate in Washington has been centered around how to expand energy supplies yet the entire debate or questioning on this program so far has been about conservation and efficiency, which only I think supports my point is a public is not inputting the process very well cuz I think it's at least a public who are raising questions. Like this was in putting the process and we see our congressmen and senators in president talking much more about efficiency and conservation and they have a lot of Supply. Let's move to a telephone to call her at someone listening to us in Moorhead. Good morning. We have a Moorhead caller on the line. Yeah, I know that there hasn't been any discussion about this course. I have my own feelings about this as we do here anymore. He isn't interested with his people on there not being brought up explicitly enough to for the people to make decisions. I was wondering if anybody wants to take that issue on. I just entered in a general fashion. I think that we've operated with tunnel vision too often in the past for far too many years economics was the central consideration and then we had a. When because of the chair Eurasian of the environment a great deal of attention and needed attention was given to environmental considerations and now because of Body Tanning declining energy supplies in the day we've had no sorry in the past energy is getting a great deal of attention to have a balanced understanding and policy. We need to look at these three years together economics environment and energy and develop policies that consider all three if we neglect one we do it at Great hazard. Let's move on to our next to call hear. Someone has been waiting for a few minutes from the Minneapolis area. Good morning. Good morning. I have a question with some of the discussion just a minute ago about taxi rates for industry. It ends up being loving the taxpayer the general public for and having them pay for costs within industry. So that industry can in fact make economies. We should be justifiable on their own on their own bases in the case of the private homeowner the subsidy for energy conservation practices in the terms of tax rebate is exactly the same thing that is a calculation one is obliged to make is to determine whether or not the easy General benefits accrued by This individual making energy conservation steps is sufficient to justify the subsidy which we all at taxpayers Bear when we give him a tax break which we all pay for him to give him a tax break. The question I have related to that isn't a question of centralized vs. Decentralized pickling area of homeowners of individual housing and housing units. People been talking about 3. Temple solar collectors is a way of an individual housing. That's the way of the centralizing production of energy and is an efficient way of collecting energy. My question is twofold is this kind of decentralization economically feasible can it be done without enormous subsidies? And the second question is are the interest of the centralized producers of energy and how will those interesting quotes the debate on the technical feasibility of a decentralized collection or production of energy. Okay. Well, the point was made up here to go that utilities would be happy if they did not have any appreciable little girls because any generating equipment that's being added will simply mean that they have to build new facilities at a very high car so that I don't think there's anybody that truly interested in expanding this for the sake of expansion. I think that the I don't know what the economics are exactly for solar heating systems, but that certainly in the industrial area and Commercial areas. I think that the problems would be a little more significant and if there was a reduction in load in a residential area, do do solar heating systems and so on. I personally wouldn't see any problem with that because I don't think it would replace Central Station entirely and it would alleviate some of the construction problems associated with Central Station power which we have at the present time. That is the economics if they financing the field supplies and Thor During work, there is just one thing. I'd like to comment on that. I keep every time we discuss these every time I hear discussions on the energy question. I keep getting the impression that we're out advocating either. We're all going to go. All Central utilities were going to completely convert to solar. I think we have to realize that each one of these things has a very major contribution into the total picture and I think there is a very definite need for Central generation through through the existing utilities. Just as I feel there's a very definite need for solar which can maybe relieve some of the growth and handle some P clothing which which in turn will help out the central utility. There is one of the points are part of the question was the fact that is solar energy economically feasible. Well quite frankly it is right at this moment. You have a difficult time making it economically feasible. And so it brings up the next point and I got company Point. Well obviously will give tax incentives to be able to help us out there again, I think tax incentives are very important. However, I think we have to be very careful because these tax and sunny opportunities are programs. Also, we often become an opiate. So to speak. In fact, they're just self-perpetuating types of these two very segment of the economy. I think solar solar tax incentive programs are very good to get it off the ground. And then I think again, it becomes a matter of more or less a personal responsibility either personally yourself or your home or corporately 440 how your company reacts to the energy problem solvers would like to go back to the question before this one about the problems of environment and energy, especially with regards to a cold develop in North Dakota. Set a course is a problem that we are looking at here because it's so it's so close to us the just recently the US House Representatives has been looking at the whole question of a low-level pollutants and a report that was done for them indicated that 90% of the cancer cases in the United States are due to the two things that come from the environment. Now that doesn't mean that these are the Exotic things that we are putting in that cause the cancer has a fairly they are elements that do we we add to the environment that are already there. But we're adding more of it in the case of cold development. We see some serious problems with the the salt in the cold with chest oxide oxide that are produced and one area that has not been looked at carefully and fact it. Even regulations covering these and that are they have it that is the area of the heavy metals and we know that in the record of North Dakota uranium is one of the very important heavy metals and the burning of the coil is going to on. Early put a great deal of of uranium into the atmosphere which will be spread around and not only North Dakota but also Minnesota, we do have a caller on the line and leave Central Minnesota area and for that will switch to Dan Olson at ksgr. Okay, we have a caller on the line here at ksj are and to go ahead you can ask your question our guest in St. Paul Moorehead in Duluth are listening. Primary source or sources of oil are going to be in the years to come like in the 80s and they're on it will return now to our studios in Saint Paul. Mike I can talk about it for a minute. I think that lets let's divide up the future into the I guess what I always like to call the short and long terms I get terribly important to understand energy and those two perspectives. It would appear given what was passed in agreed to in Washington the other day that between now and the end of this decade the the primary growth and supply of oil to use in this country is going to come from foreign sources you're using about 40% for an oil in this country right now that is just say that. Of 16 to 17 million barrels-a-day some 6 to 7 million barrels a day are important. It's believed it given the girls that that could be anticipated do with a lack of conservation of any Mage make it to me could be a 20 million barrels a day by the end of the decade in about 10 million barrels of that would come from foreign sources and other words saying that literally all the increased demand for oil is going to be supplied by Foreign sources. I think it's a bit difficult to see Kathy worst way to go in the future for sure with with higher prices in this country. We can produce more while we're going to get 2 million barrels-a-day from the North Slope of Alaska here towards the end of the decade 78 say that will make a dinner. I think that through conservation of higher prices. We we we can develop more at home. We can use less of the imported. I think it would be naive to say that we are going to find ourselves freed of imported oil over the long run at the percentage total that we use of imported oil might decrease if it in my own mind is probably in our best interest to continue to get oil from foreign countries rather than make those kinds of capital Investments here at home. When we do have some Capital problems. We have vast other energy sectors needing capital and other economic and social programs that everybody would like to see all take place in this country. One of the things that happens when you have a lot of energy in a lot of affluence as you also have a lot of demand for other kinds of nice things like social equality and equity and end in healthcare. And care for all ages and in walks of life and we can't do all of these things up on our own to be difficult if not impossible to finance them. So we have to we have to look at that foreign sources in the future and hopefully re-enter the world economic Market in such a way that we can control it much better than we are today because for sure we are not controlling it today. I think it might be interesting over talking about for an oil to very briefly. Have you update our listeners on the latest developments with the the Canadian situation how the Canadian oil imports are going to be replaced. We've heard that there may be a plan to give the Upper Midwest in the Northern Tier States and priority and allocation John. Do you know something about that. I can give you up a rundown on that the Canadian government has a decreasing exports to the United States on their schedule recently that schedule has been moved to head that is there curtailments are going to come a little bit faster there about three things that Can do during the short-term one is to work through the FBI in Washington to get a more favorable allocation of the Canadian crude for those refineries such as those in Minnesota that are dependent upon Canadian supplies other users of Canadian crude have alternate supplies a second method is to encourage the oil companies themselves to engage and swap swear by companies that are in other parts of the country. Would the provide Uso oil to Canadian refineries in return for Canadian Oil being provided to of the refineries here in Minnesota that don't have some of this kind of Supply other possibility is sort of front-end load the decline. So we get more during the first few years for a sharper reduction later on. If we do those three things we ought to be able to get enough of crude oil to the provide enough refineries for oil for the for Minnesota area required for the next two or three years after that. We're going to have to find some ultimate source of crude oil for Refineries and here are the three options would be other reversal of the Trans Mountain pipeline that would provide the Alaskan oil through Canada end of the Upper Midwest a second would be to build a crude pipeline through the Northwestern States into the Upper Midwest. The third would be to provide some improved or increase the capacity for moving crude up from the Gulf in from the southern part of the United States through new pipelines for unused capacity in the existing pipelines going down that direction. I might Murphy I wholeheartedly agree with what John says time is a very important element here. However, the Canadian government announced just recently that it was going to reduce is export to the US from 750000 barrels a day to 500,000 barrels a day as of January this coming year to show you what that means for a sort of the Upper Midwest those Northern Tier Refinery is who we depend on that oil it last year. They Received or used about 250,000 barrels-a-day themselves in these 14 or 15 refineries in the Upper Midwest a reduction from 750,000 500,000 Rolly on a pro-rata share give these refineries about a hundred and fifty thousand which is hardly sufficient for our local refineries to run at at capacity and to meet local market demands. So we do have some jogging around here about the lead time for developing these other Alternatives like the reversal of a pipeline in Canada and a pipeline from Seattle to Northern Minnesota or anything coming up from the Gulf. Are they in the 22324 your brackets and they're terribly expensive and what what I'm saying and all of this is that it's terribly important now I think for people to begin plus I said earlier to input the system. It's not going to move or not going to get consensus on on what the problem really is and what the Alternatives really are without some public participation in the process Mister John Heald the Deputy Administrator of the Federal Energy Administration was here for Senator Humphreys. Rings on a month ago. He placed a very low priority on on the reversing the Trans Mountain Pipeline and swapping oil with candida. I personally was disheartened to see that because my conversations with both the US and Canadian energy and other people have indicated a favorable belief that something like this could be done again. We so we have a difference in Washington and a difference out here and then be resolved. We're already running past our time here. But let's just hope the Fargo-Moorhead and take it one more phone caller. Yes, I have more of a comment to make I guess until raise a question but perhaps the others can comment on it were interested in outdoor activities such as backpack camping and so forth and it kind of bothers me sometimes bothers. Some people don't know Sports. They are they tend to put down the conspicuous consumers and recreational activities such as snowmobilers and motorcyclist and all that sort of thing without really realizing how consumptive backpacking can be in terms of the amount of garbage that's created by the packaging that goes into making the freeze dry dehydrated Foods all they cellophane and foil various plastic wrap and just the fact that their gear is just about 100% synthetic dependent on oil byproduct of manufacturing the coated nylon material. The lightweight aluminum Alloys that go into making frames for backpacking tents and so forth and for us and makes it a little bit difficult because we would like to be able to use natural materials. We're at all possible and equipment for example, real tightly woven lightweight cotton fabric switch take a lot less energy to produce but it's just about impossible to find such things on the market today just about everything is made out of nylon and one can't even buy the raw materials to make their own equipment in this regard. I guess that's about all I have to say. I think Gordon Levine in Duluth would like to I reactivate a bit, very interesting because it's been one that I've been attempting to drive home anytime soon as we start looking for the quote enemy on caught in this whole energy problem. I think we really have come to a self-defeating kind of mechanism. That's more than everything else a lot of what we've heard today that points out the interdependence within the whole area. The Administration has coin Us in the past maybe because of that. It's become almost a cliche but it certainly is true. Mike Murphy and John milhoan talking about the potential of swaps between American Producers with crude oil to Canada and exchange for Canadian crude oil coming in to hear if we look for interdependence. We see that The Backpacker and the other Recreation oriented person to have to if you want another cook differently than having a fast if we start looking at the that big business or the utilities or the commercial areas or the as the residential customers as being the carpet, we've already become locked into a system that I don't think we can find a way out of Thank you, Laura Gordon Levine geographer at the University of Minnesota and Duluth. And I think with that, we're going to close off this so special I broadcast want to thank our guests in addition to mr. Levine in Duluth parents and board vice president for corporate planning at Minnesota Power & Light Company in Moorhead. Dr. Duane Dahlberg associate professor of physics at Concordia College and in St. Paul John Mulholland, the Minnesota Energy agency, Michael Murphy project manager for the future choices energy program at the Upper Midwest Council and Gary Moore an architect with bergstedt Wahlberg berquist and who is pretty plain toasted in solar and alternative energy sources.