On this Radio Free Saturday, MPR’s Marvin Granger and Pual Gruchow interview Phyllis Kahn, Minnesota state representative. Kahn shares her critique of the University of Minnesota leadership.
State Representative Phyllis Kahn, District 57A, Southeast Minneapolis, released a statement critical of lobbying efforts of University of Minnesota during 1973 legislative session. Kahn presents views as a member of legislature, as faculty member of the University of Minnesota and member of the University community.
Read the Text Transcription of the Audio.
Paul Greco and I are in our Saint Paul studio with state representative Phyllis Kahn released a statement rather critical of their lobbying efforts of the University of Minnesota during the last session of the legislature. I might mention that representative conserv district 57a, which is primarily Southeast Minneapolis where many students faculty and staff of the University of Minnesota live. She is also a member of the University of Minnesota faculty in the field of genetics and cell biology and the resident of Southeast Minneapolis. So I think we'll probably be posing questions to her today as a member of the legislature as a faculty member and as a citizen of the university communityRipta newcon, rather than trying to summarize. They've the statements that you made about how the university presented his case to the legislature during the 73 session. I think I would like to begin by asking you to state. Essentially what displeased you about the appearances of the University lobbyist? at the legislature I think the major thing that I thought displease me was one the absence of faculty and student participation in the presentation and another and the direction of their interest which was very strongly directed to building other words. Add a point. When the academic you might say. The academic field is in a real crisis and terms of dealing with problems of declining enrollment with the problems of cutting out of federal grants and training Grand serve are being cutting people don't know whether the research program which they've been involved on in the last 10 years, which is which may be connected with the feces of many graduate students is going to be cut off with leaving everyone just hanging there was the University not interested in any kind of plans which would bring some flexibility into this uncertainties of federal funding. Revenue sharing soap with but still just again attempting to cover more of the university area in concrete making final plans that were based on either enrollment of what they thought important programs were again that showed no no element of flexibility and no elements of change in which speaks for the University and then the faculty and the student body. Is that really the way it is or is that accidentally the way it came across and I think that this is what the real crisis in the University leadership is all about I think that one of the things that we've got to do start to reassert the traditional values of the university and the traditional thought of the University perhaps of some kind of a center of learning in the community, I haven't heard of this real crisis of administrative leadership and mask Resignations in great displeasure at other universities, I guess the ones that I keep greater contact with such as for example 9 Alma Mata is Yale University Kingman Brewster has sent the head of the of the the administration and has very very strong support from The Faculty from the student and even you know, sometimes from the trustees and alumni and so forth. As a leader. Well, it's just hard to say. I think it's a problem of the whole Administration and there's a problem some of some like the anonymity of the large State University. I think the white why is surface this year and I really think it isn't just Rumblings that have come up to the top but it's really come up this year because there is a crisis and there is a and the crisis is probably rooted in money at a conference in San Francisco recently of University trustees State University trustees, the chairman of the Board of Regents of former Governor Elmer Anderson made what I thought was quite an impressive speech about the importance of bringing students into the governing of the University. I'd like to ask you. Whether you're satisfied with the performance of The Board of Regents and their leadership role at Minnesota and then also who have to speak for the university in terms of final Authority. Should it be the Board of Regents should be the president or should it be maybe the faculty according to the Constitutional setup of the universities of what it is the Board of Regents. So I think that's the reality that we deal with the question then comes is how do the Board of Regents going to arrive? How are they going to arrive at their decision and what kind of input goes into that and this is the point where I think we want much greater faculty and student input. Now again, as I said, there were also again in going back to European universities that Chief Administration is done Visalia Rector and Dean and their responsibilities very clearly was informant on to the faculty and now even though we tend to think of Europeans as being less Innovative and Less of the frontier mentality than Americans are they've gone very far to having the Rector and Dean were faculty members rotate with two-year terms as administrators elected by faculty and students now and very quick to bring students into participation to head off the kind of Confrontation regions appear before the end of the Committees that you you serve on at the legislature speaking for the University this this last session core presentation was done by the university lobbyist faculty and student leaders did appear at the legislature sort of unofficial a they were not part of the administration case being made. Did you complain about that at the time and to the university? And what kind of response did did you get? There was there was a small presentation. I guess I did I did complain certainly unofficially at every level that I could from faculty through Dean's to be a lobbyist that I thought that the emphasis was wrong and then I could not and I could not see that the faculty case was being with being presented properly faculty and students to the story that he gave two legislative committee significantly differ from that that the administration was giving in your view. Was it helpful to one hearing the hearing so I did sit that I did sit in on there was a very great concern about this decrease in federal funding in very great concern about the lack of Interesting program but the major hit point again, and again was the need for the need for new buildings. And I think for nevermind now I was someone who probably received much more content from University people and also from The Faculty Mary just because of the district I represent and I don't think I would ever approached by one of the official University lobbyist or an Administration member or any of the Regents that anything else than concern about what I going to get the new buildings home economics building the law school. the health building the university is suffering. I don't know whether to call it an image problem or not, but it is certainly is is is seen less favorably by the people who live around it and who watch it. Then I used to be as an institution. It has a less favorable image. I heard complaints for example this past week about I don't even know if this is true but a whole complex of parking ramps that are being built along Oak Street for a lot of houses have been cleared out just recently you're near the University of Minneapolis campus, then that I think you have spoken publicly about the alumni Hotel issue over there again, I have to come back to whether or not this reflects distorted values on the part of President moose and his vice presidents or the Board of Regents. Who's responsible for For What appears to be a less sensitive University? Well, it's not it's not really clear. I think that the legislature has to take some of this responsibility in their budgeting our location the University of certainly now developed a very bad reputation among its neighbors considered to be essentially participating what we would call a rape of the community and in a complete Oblivion, they regard to Total Oblivion the interest of the community and I think of the legislators share some of the responsibility for this and that I see among the legislators of a feeling that the university is a state institution. In fact, I think this is encouraged that I'm much by the by the University Administration this is rightly. So I've read a letter from Brinkerhoff which says that the university is a great local State national and International in the middle of a community. Real flesh-and-blood local people who have homes and schools and traffic problems and housing problems. And I guess some of the concern has been is that this this riding roughshod over the local community is considered acceptable in in a way that no other state legislator would tolerate for the district and I think this alumni hotel is a really good example liquor bills are considered local liquor bills and the change in the law in the last session. I'm not sure how deeply you want to go into this, but that might be an interesting case to bring it to break to bring out. Many people may know there's a general old probably from the last century law, which says that liquor will not be sold within a mile of Morrow Hall on the East Bank of the Mississippi time of values when it was considered that liquor and education should not mix now. I don't want to get into the aspects of whether this is good in my the liquor education. Can we sure do mixed but that's what happened in the last session one session was at a special bill with push through which which added a sentence to the section of the law except for the case of a club or hotel or organization, which is least or controlled by members of an of an Association of Former students of the University, which had been organized prior to 1940. In the vernacular, this is known as special legislation. Now. This was not at all brought through the local legislator at the point. The only member of the Southeast Community who was violently opposed to this kind of intrusion in the community. And in fact, we find that the community is very much opposed to say don't feel that the Alumni Association represents the community. They don't feel that this will serve an educational function. They don't feel that this is the kind of complex which is needed with a kind of traffic problems. If we'll bring in with the kind of traffic problems that may create if it's successful. It's a good party place. And so what my cell phone center Des Pere who regard ourselves as the local legislators in this area has done is submit a bill which was submitted too late for any action this session. But which and when we Which will repeal the Slime that was added in the last session. What was the legislature would deal with this again in January father something that was added to that old is is blonde out at that was passed. So the legislation that you'll be dealing with a 1974 on this matter is to sort of reverse that yes, and we did it in the way a local liquor bill is introduced. We did not go around Gathering a supportive of influential legislators from without the the state we introduce the Jets with as a single author Bill we can say that this is exactly analogous to a local legislator who wants or does not want a liquor license remember who you remember who sponsored that the revision in the No, I'm sorry. I don't have it with me. It was passed by a strong strong majority. I just know that the local legislative was opposed to it was passed over his wishes. It was not put through the Hennepin County delegation. He went around the Hennepin County delegation, which is also somewhat unusual procedure and finally the Elder Statesman who sit around me on the house floor and we're very amused at the thought of my introducing an anti liquor bill at the same time that everyone was introducing Pro liquor bills for the district. Remember recalled that after that field pass then move sending University lobbyist at the time took them all out to dinner to celebrate the passage of I wonder if this specific incident in Southeast Minneapolis is reflective of a somewhat larger image problem with university has until Fairly recently lived in rural Minnesota and I think there was an image problem with the university there too. And it went somewhat along these lines. The university is eager to spend as much of our our money is taxpayers. Is it possible you can make some big wrists and well-coordinated fight for that money and each session of the legislature, but it's not interested in and turn and love and providing in the way of community service and they think of anything in return a benefit to us. I think there's a feeling that it's not sufficient to say that this is the place where where you can send your kids if you have enough money to send them there to get educated. There's a Thursday. There is a greater obligation on the part of the university to the whole community of the state. Did you send sat in the legislature? The University's promises in this direction sound much better than the delivery of its promises. For example one would think that the only purpose of this enormous amount of money going into Health Sciences in this huge numbers of buildings and the parking ramp the Health Sciences parking ramp, which as you've mentioned is kind of a sore spot in the community is to provide better delivery a family medical care to rural Minnesota and this anywhere anywhere that family doctors on this sounds very good except as some of us like myself who spent Not much of my time. I admit in rural Minnesota, but a fair amount of time around prestigious medical schools throughout the country and in other countries too, and the problem is that it's very difficult to educate the family doctor in a setting where all the glory and all the esteem goes to the people who are doing heart transplants and kidney transplants in a fighting on the Forefront of medical research and there are finding a cure for cancer. If not this week then the next month and it's and when you educate people in this area and yet stay the real glory in the real purpose of life is to Family Practice. It's not realistic they going to add you know this as I say not as I do this is true of a lot of University actions and a lot of their presentation legislature did pass the bill in this section that just ended I believe which didn't provide some some incentive for for young people to to go into training to be General Practitioners giving them loans. I believe with the assumption that they would then serve what two years or something out in a rural area of the state to go a centrally wherever they were told to go. I believe I wasn't it for a couple of years. I guess I sort of have to support that kind of legislation, but I'm fairly dubious as to what its effect will be your bill was originally presented at least in the house is two years of practice in a rural area, and it would I think the in conference it went up to three years, which is a little bit better. Scholarships available or up to $6,000 per year. So what might happen is that the state will be paying 24? thousand dollars for what might be only 3 years of medical practice in that area, which is kind of they might get the same effect instead of having a scholarship program by just setting up a bonus of a gift of $8,000 a year to anyone who wants to practice in rural Minnesota and you have if you know you'll be able to choose your people after they graduated which would eliminate some of the risk now, we won't know about the success of this program till it's worth thought is That the student will that the medical student will go out to rule Minnesota will find a pretty young girl or or or she will find a handsome young man just down the road with deep roots in the community and we'll practice and will and will then. The town will then just have will have a lasting doctor of their own. I guess one of the legislators broke up the Appropriations Committee by saying it actually at this was what happened at the Young doctor did come to town and he practice her while and didn't meet a pretty young girl. And the only problem was that the young doctor was married in the pretty young girl was married to other people. I think this might be a more realistic. I'm thinking I was thinking before that story of another us last session to provide General scholarships to to students to try to compensate for the loss of federal funds. I believe scholarship funds that were a cutback. Could you elaborate a bit on on that and was that legislation promoted by the University of 4 for the students or not? But there was much more lobbying after that much more effort was put on this by the people from hack The Higher Education Coordinating commission, then the university again that bill is certainly certainly good idea. I don't think it goes really far enough and making the kind of loans that we need available. In fact, I'm going to be working on a proposal. Over the summer during the interim which several other universities have have adopted. I'm not sure any state system has adopted which is an income-contingent loan a situation where the loan is not repaid until sometime like 10 years after graduation and it is then repaid fully as a percentage of the students. I think possibly 7% of the total on the difficulty in this program as the preliminary discussions that I had with the people and heck about it is that you can't get Federal guarantee on these loans because nobody knows what the repayment problem is. You don't know what the skip a trait is going to be this no date or that until you've got to you got to put more funding into it some Netline have suggested that the repayment oughta be a lifetime repayment at some percentage of it. Would that be part of your proposal wasn't a very low percentage and you have you have to figure it out as to what you expect the repayment to be because you may have your psychiatrist or a surgeon and so forth may end up paying for more than the loan originally cost and your street Minister and soap with me pay for less for students a bitter bitter sweet experience anyway, because as you increase the loan is that you're also a coil pack at the same time increasing the tuition cost and in your in a kind of treadmill in that in that respect. Can something be done about that tuition situation? It's hard to say unless we get more fed. Play education and unless we start cutting expenses and no I'm not I think if there are places to cut expenses. I don't know if I suppose I should have had the exact figures but there a lot of Administrators at the University. They making $40,000 a year in basic salary plus have the cost of a whole administrative support service and instructor who may be making $10,000 has far less expenses and turns of janitorial service secretarial service Messenger Service free cars and so forth in the rest of the University Administration and I would like to have figures on what is exactly the cost of a vice-presidency at the University. And what is the bare-bones number of Vice Presidents we could get along with The size of the central administrative bureaucracy at the University in recent years has increased enormously I filled when the job is about 6 years ago. There were three vice-presidents at the University in there. Now how how many 6 and almost a countless number of assistant associate vice president. Is there any evidence that the growth of the bureaucracy is it has a netted anything and turns its efficiency at the university has it been a useful exercise that's part of the problem with I think so and I think one of the things that I proposed yesterday and I think that is very reasonable. Let's have it complete freeze on Administration the administration proposed to freeze on the hiring of teaching assistants for the next year will the University of gotten along without a couple of Vice Presidents now. Let's freezes positions and see what happens. Come back again though. The doctor moose, isn't he the one who conceived this plan for administering the university in a more efficient way more responsive way. I think he said to the needs of the students and the faculty buy it by adding vice presidents and assistant and associate vice presidents as I understand it from this is from conversations with Doctor moves to his two very strongly protest his lack of ability to do anything on his own. This really does come down to the Regency Administration May propose things. But the Regents are the final disposes the fine. And when it comes to funding legislature to say University Administration went to them with proposals and they sort of rubber stamp them rather Anderson under under his term as chairman of the Board of Regents has openly stated that he thinks the Region's ought to take more aggressive role and more and more of a leadership role at the University. Are you agreeing or disagreeing with that that notion in what you're saying? I do think that there has to be someone to measure responsiveness. Of the University of the university and the I guess I would like to see the Region's be a somewhat more representative group. I'd like to see their average age a little lower. I'd like to see some people honor to have what I consider a real dedication to the humanistic part of Education that used to be so important liberal arts and so forth. I am terribly afraid that this is big Trend in the Region's to agribusiness towards the medicine the representative for the medical community the representative for labor and is no representative to the humanist to the philosopher to a person who believes in the values of higher education as such but there's a bit of disingenuousness in the moose's defending his inability to act on grounds of the other regions because I wanted I wonder whether you agree or disagree with the statement. Active or passive no matter what the Board of Regents does its decisions are primarily Atwell exclusively based on whatever information is channel to it by the central administrative officers at the University and and it has no independent staff at that doesn't even have a secretary to serve it to his independent of the administration. So even in a minutes most aggressive form, it would hardly do anything that that wouldn't support the central Administration what it had some other way to channel information could be Much perhaps with a little organization could be much more aggressive and having their viewpoint. I presented to the Regents and thence to the legislature what to the administration and so far is Improvement a matter of changing the membership On The Board of Regents can games be achieved to by establishing the means of Independence for the Board of Regents to some extent for example, giving it some kind of staff for or setting up the consultative committee. Is it directly to the Board of Regents composed of faculty and students does membership on the board go hand-in-hand with making them more responsive to the university community as an educator. I would hope that all one would have to do would be to present the idea to the Regents that this should be that they should be more responsive to it and that they should listen to The Faculty unwell, so in a sense you've got to breathe have an organized channel to get this information to them one might say that in fact the whole a Ministration at this legislative session have been a drive to unionization of the faculty. I think this is one of the things that we seen happening at the faculty is now much more interested in unionization collective bargaining and so forth into some people testifies to the breakdown of a community at the University and I 10 years or so that that that I have been around that institution and people who will teach there in front of school there. I have heard repeatedly the statement made through the 60 is that at the university community was dying or falling apart word for becoming a factionalized to buy various things unionization is often brought up as evidence of of that that you you form a union in an academic environment when the relationship of of trust breaks down and then you have the corporate management and they the people who work for that management and then delete the people who work for the meeting Union. Would you endorse that interpretation of unionization at all? Can be looked at as a very kind of just just just the way to get profit channels open up as a kind of coming together of people of looking of perhaps getting away from some of the more elitist tradition that academics are above this kind of agreement and that you don't have to rely on the support of the lower people in the academic Community has been a great tendency in the past, which I hope is diminishing to regard the academic as an elite at the totally League group and completely neglect the Civil Service and the students and so forth and I think that this is a that unionization. I hopefully pulls away from this is no way for us to tell at this point since the time I was on the University campus at which would have been in the in the mid-1960s the Civil Service people have become much more active in their own behalf there. Turn the walking izing and putting pressure on the administration for for for benefits in 4/4 salary considerations. You and your statement released yesterday said that he thought that the suggestion have been made to you buy some faculty people at the University that perhaps The Faculty ought to have their own lobbyists. I believe at the legislature you were not friendly to that idea. I think in your press release so which would you talk about about that and maybe one of the civil servants out to have perhaps their own lobbyists over there. I said was that the the this was talking about the fact that the faculty increase as it was first presented to the legislature to increase in salary. Look just buy the same as a civil service increase. They were both supposed to be about 5% but the Civil Service increase. It turns out goes does appear as a 5% increase on approximately 5% increase on paychecks. Where is the faculty increase is subjected to all kinds of manipulation and skimming off phenomenon along the way and there's now some discussion as to whether it will be closer to 3% or 4% But it's definitely not what either the faculty what the legislature thought. Now the Civil Service increase is not handled it all in the University process. I guess the law was passed little while ago or statement writer written into the budget cuts to the university Civil Service salaries will be comprable to those in the State Civil Service. So they're handled completely by the bargaining unit for state employees. It's not part of the University presentation at all. And so they came out of the budgeting process in much better shape than the faculty do. And it's not even in the University budget. It's in the state Department's appropriation budget and it didn't understand your response. Maybe you didn't give a direct response to the question of a lobbyist for the faculty. What I had said what I had said was that one was for the faculty faculty hit spoken to me often during the session and out. And now after was it that they want the legislature to take more direct control of the University appropriation. They want to go in the direction of almost more line item budget and you might have an individual sociology Professor make him up and wants the legislature to write that person salary in as a line item budget in the Appropriations Bill and line item in the budget with ta is want you to write. You know, how many ta is that will be or how exactly what this Tyler he's will be in. And and Sophie this is very much getting away from the concept the basic concept that we've had a constitutional autonomy of the University of Minnesota and what I'm not sure about it, but I don't think this is a good idea. I really don't think the university wants the legislature to say who should be the Regents professor of History, which is almost what they're asking. What I think is very bad about this is that it's symptomatic of the deep distrust that the faculty has of the administration is that they feel they're being controlled by the administration. They looking towards State control and I mean real rigorous State control as a more pleasant alternative to What they see is is not feeling University Administration control. I know because I talked to him a number of times about the subject the president Moosewood would say exactly the opposite thing you say the whole problem with that being president of a great University like the University of Minnesota. Is that the Traditions under which it's been established make the place unmanageable. He said on more than one occasion if I could have the power to appoint myself without any advice from anybody else if I could have the power to appoint five professors to the university each year. I could turn this place around who could we have a situation with the president claims. He can't run anything in the factory claims. It can't run anything. It is in fact the university unmanageable. Well, I don't think so. I just think it's become a tradition to protest the ability ones of One's Own lack of ability to manage by just saying that someone else prevents you from doing this is why I think we need to return to a more traditional process where the faculty have any students and students now, I think you're very legitimate part of the academic concern research real real life example. I think that there is no reason even if it has to be ratified by the by the Regents by the faculty and students cancel after president. Faculty and student selected a university president has done for many European university university community. I could just hear people saying that that would be an education of responsibility on the part of the of the region send and really as far as the legislature to our than the people of the state who it's their University. They they often people outside the university off and see the students for example is as rather trenchant people at the University with no long-range an investment their involvement there. They just sort of being processed somehow through this institution and the perhaps they do have a vital interest in what goes on for four years or six years or eight years, but not in any institutionalized long-term way. How would you how would you respond to that criticism of their of their participation? Are there right to participate in that kind of basic decision-making like the selection of a president or putting together a budget really have any part in that business strongly affecting their lives and I think that we would get to the point where we had more responsive more responsive Administration. I don't want to do this to be taking his criticism of President most because perhaps maybe it would be signed with someone someone with his kind of abilities is the very proper kind of president for the University. And again, I'm not saying that the Regents would abdicate their responsibility constitutional they would still have to reaffirm. This might be a better way of a rising at the decision process as to what the administration is going to be who the administration's going to be. What that suggests that the elections wouldn't that the governments of the University would come from within the organization with the election process make it likely that some member of The Faculty for example would not exceed the presidency again. I think that this would be a very much healthier situation situation in many universities. I think I would also I think the idea of entrenched administrators is very bad. I think we really want to get to the to the position where we consider rotating people through the administration. I think the homogeneity and the administrative class is just just appalling when you going to one of those rooms at Morrow Hall and everybody looks like white someone overweight male Let that that the faculty it has a has a lot of entrenched mediocrity in it that it is there because of of traditions and and well 10-year to keep them there. I guess you'd also get to the same point where a lot of people and another level would say that the same thing exists in the student body. Also. I just think as you would you expect to The Faculty. I thought of that when Paul was making his comment about the president of the central Administration saying that they really can't do what they want to do. And if the president had a chance to hire five professors of Eureka turn this place around wasn't that really a comment on 10 year. Faculty tenure. Well, I do feel about family income dead come from someone who does have it so I can speak with total. I can speak on both sides of the subject. I guess at the point at this point. I would be unhappy to see 10. You're completely disappeared because I think it has been something that's really given us academic freedom freedom and has given people the ability to speak with to speak freely and to be free of other precious, but I really think that in this kind of age that we're living in the job market that we living in that we need to modify the concept of tenure and I think people this is this is the University of community's probably the only place where a total incompetent can have a job full life at age 35 with no. Other review from then on at age 37 from then on of any of their productivity or any of their effectiveness and field what then I think that if we got to a system of more. Valuation and end it with something and if the faculty had trust in the fact that the evaluation was going to be justified and if they wouldn't they wouldn't be released for political pressure. I think that the demand for unmitigated tenure as we have it now might decrease a little bit. I'm fucking with University in the cause of tenure and that's help the swelling administrative ranks in part a person becomes completely incompetent his job in the committed in the university community and that he's promoted upstairs to have without naming any names for exactly was for us for a long time after the dean of students office cease to exist and Associate dean of students with no other structure. Around him and simply a way of keeping him on the faculty and eventually went around and made a study of the enrollment registration procedure and other universities in the country and it was enormously costly to the community. You could have hired three Factory people. I'm sure for the same price. Is there some way to make the 10-year procedure work without protecting that kind of love. I'm fine feather bedding in the university community is the concept of early retirement which the state put in for the first time for a penal officials. Now, I'm not sure if we want to say that you had this completely ridiculous idea that someone must work 8 hours a day or more. If you believe the workloads at The Faculty say that they have until age 65 and then at age 65 precise. Clear or perhaps maybe we'll drop it now to age 62, you don't work at all 0 days and I think that this is the kind of thing that we should be looking at the slot that maybe at a point someone who is taught a full load really should start teaching a 3/4 loan and a half load and that's maybe it is sent slide into retirement. And if this should be there may be people who really would like to do this with, you know, we had a lot of talk at the legislature and around the university community about consultant ships and are they proper and and are they being abused should be the place with Creative Solutions to the problems of society of being tested and And either discarded or implemented and one of these would be part-time positions would be changing making it easy to change careers in Midstream make a partial retirement early retirement late retirement. And I don't see any of these things being promulgated by the administration certainly representative Phyllis, Democrat from Southeast Minneapolis who represents a large part of the Minneapolis campus community of the University of Minnesota in the legislature in that many people who teach him to go to school at the University and who are on the staff they're living in her district and will continue with just a moment. Representative Con in 1972 in the primary race for the seat that you hold one of your opponents. I believe campaigned on a a commission free platform for the university in this keeps coming up by candidates for the Minnesota Student Association and others creeping tuition increases have concerned people for a long time and it would appear that. There's really no way to avoid them. You took exception with a free tuition idea. Would you would you comment on intuition and how it can be? Kept to a minimum. This is certainly a real problem and ask tuition goes off. It just makes it harder and harder for the marginal income student in the middle class student because one finds that the wealthy can afford tuition and the very poor or off an eligible for programs for tuition, but the the middle class is really getting squeezed out of this of this of the whole deal and still we come back to the basic fact that the value of a hot the financial value of the higher education the cruise mainly to the person who has education for all the statements about the benefits of society and so forth the I guess I said this during the campaign and it's still a good analogy. Is that the Surgeon has a much better standard of living in a much greater greater income then the orderly and the only difference between those two people can be a certain amount of higher education. And when you think of this coming out of the burden of the tax payers of the state, I'm home is the oily of course, but then becomes a little hard hard to take and I'm just not sure how to go about it. I think we need more student loan programs. We need good repayment skiing. We need a realization. I think from the federal government that the university university like the University of Minnesota is a federal resource and that we can't have a state of this kind of population in this kind of well paying for the whole App for essential Federal programs of Education like medicine here in like veterinary medicine, which I think they're only eleven Veterinary medical schools in the country. It's a problem but not for free tuition. I'm not coming up with solutions to the problem because I think that's really just the kind of pie-in-the-sky political promises which mean absolutely nothing an institution was and continues to be that education at such institutions out to be available to anyone who can complete it really go through it. Yeah, that's true in the cost of education at private institutions Rising even much more outrageously probably also argue historically that at the time on the land-grant universities were established the resources of the communities were such and the demands of of the states and regions were such that it that it really was an important role for the federal government to take at that point in here in our history. But the situation has had has changed substantially since the land-grant institutions were established there now functioning. Well, I don't have the start-up cost there. They're liable communities to support them. They they're generating your only income. They have state legislators with her. Well established to provide them with money and and maybe Some different bases free tuition is now appropriate time of the establishment of land-grant Institutions, even at the land-grant institutions was a much more elitist Affair than it is now. I think we're we're educating a much greater variety of people. So we really still are succeeding in the initial idea of these. Vice president Stanley winberg complained during the last legislative session about the changes in federal funding that President Nixon has initiated that I'm dropping a number of the categorical Grant programs to the university and giving sort of a general lump sum of money to local governments that what the president was. In fact doing was forcing the university to go hand-in-hand to City fathers are to local units of government and compete with other community agencies and organizations for this limited amount of money and mr. Winberg said the university really shouldn't have to do that. What is your view of that? What I said about the university really is a federal resource in many many aspects and should be regarded. So by the federal government now the other problem that really came up this session particularly is that we don't know the federal government has not made its decisions yet and we were No until August September or even later what federal programs are being maintained what are being cut back and what the difference is in this is I guess why I criticized the University Administration for their emphasis on buildings and instead of pushing for things like a contingency fund. I heard that the legislature Wisconsin put I believe a 12 million-dollar lump-sum contingency fund for the University to drawn to replace programs, which are discontinued and the legislative the Minnesota Legislature did do this for one for one aspect. I put a 1 million contingency fund for daycare centers and day activity centers that could be drawn on if Federal Appropriations were cut and this is the kind of program that the University Administration I think should have asked for that's hardly a $1000000 is hardly adequate. I think the figures from a vice president when Berg's office suggests that if the president's program. Sustained in large part at least the university stands to lose in federal support about 16 million dollars in the coming fiscal year, which is an enormous amount of money to make up your comment on that that whole rearrangement of passing money from the federal level to the to the to the state and local governments by the administration is that mr. Nixon says that they can dropping the categorical programs or changing them to to General Grant Program, but this will make local governments more responsible being part of the principal unit of local government in this state. Do you agree with the president's view of of that change the same programs have been cut so you do have this competitive element. If you do have to go to fight the daycare and you find out that what you're fighting against is not the military industrial establishment, but you're fighting about against the people who want better care for the mental. Retarded or better care for or more money put into legal aid for minorities or something like that. I think the problem is is that the federal government? Piece of money in the stator and it in this in our society and unless they're going to allocate a fair share for this is just a lie that it can be replaced by local control rather than criticizing the way the president is has proposed reorganizing this relationship between the federal government and state and local governments. You would suggest that the federal government ought to Simply come across with more money. Of course, of course, that's truth Minnesota, which I think with all due modesty has a fairly Progressive local government on many levels, but this is not true in the state line, Mississippi or perhaps even California where you may have the very the local people are very opposed to these kind of programs because they're interfering with their local Palace. It seems appropriate to ask here to you. You've been critical of the University Administration and its relationship to State Legislature. I wonder whether you have also some judgment about the University's relationship to the federal government where it's also active is a is a lobbyist to do you have the feeling that the University Administration is represented. The University's needs at the federal level better than it did its needs at the legislature. Detailed knowledge of this. I guess I come back to the same statement of went when you see the University at a time when programs are in deep crisis pushing for buildings. And you start to wonder are they trying to create the campus of empty buildings essentially there a lot and has lots of empty space in new buildings that have been built and there's no instill the idea of an administrator is always to get more to administer assume you're not going to build buildings how specifically would you would you build a list of priorities to present to the legislature for the funding of the University of Minnesota? What's most needed their? I don't think this is any objection to presenting a fairly specific list of requests as long as the absolute control is not It's not delegated to the legislature. But I think I would have thought that in this session. The biggest crisis is the concept of the decrease of federal funding and programs that are under way and it may be totally truncated life example to help center. The Martin Luther King center student loans tuition. Is it big? Point that has to be looked at and again, I think the need for comprehensive planning in the community was a strong need which was not pushed it all by the university. They'll say that they did put the item in their budget and it wasn't funded by the legislature but putting it riding it in and really pressing for his totally different taking place on like the humanities program and other programs that I should say non-scientific or non technical programs that tend not to attract Federal money. So easily that the university is not provided adequate support for these programs to grow into prosper and people look back to the days when the humanities program was healthier at the University. Certainly then it is know. What are your thoughts about about that. Is that a failure of University leadership? Prickly political cycle of the university for posing what it thinks the legislature wants and the governor. Okay and what he thinks the legislation the people want and we didn't get to the element of dishonesty where the people get to think that they will get better health care by building health building complex ABM parking lot Ian you too in the federal funding thing to within the University at within the university community itself. When you set priorities you gave you get into a sport for one department or program meaning in the fact that I decline in the support for another department of program and Leah strictly Humanities oriented programs and never come out very well in those internal squabbles even within the faculty at the university is not true. I think this again point out the need for political organization of that element of the faculty and I think that week that's the presentation to the people of the state to the Just like your to the Regents and possibly even to the University of Industry Administration that Humanity's is a deep and basic needs for the society for the betterment of all of us has to be properly presented. I don't think it was an assassin. It would appear from the recent student elections at the University that the student body is is plagued by Galloping apathy with respect to its its own government then perhaps with respect to its it's having any meaningful role any power in the institution. How do you interpret the pitiful poor turnout to the student voters in those elections in ND the impotence of the Minnesota Student Association Denny's and I think this is something which plagues a lot of commuter colleges. Would that change though if students were allowed to participate in governing the university as Regent Anderson suggested they should be in as you have proposed here that they might even participate in the election of the of the president. Would you have in mind any any way that the student could become more or less a politically involved in the University? One of the things would be is more dense state of the region of the administration of reporting to the students of asking for the students for help and drawing up plans instead of presenting a plan to the students and the faculty afterwards. We are only the only alternative you have is just a tear into it every student regents. I am in favor of that, but I'm not sure if a special Student Regent should be elected or if it just want to just ask either the legislature or the governor. Whoever is appointing or region to make a point of appointing either student or a recent student to the Board of Regents left. But do you think that the role of women in the governing of the university has improved me? We've heard several rather dramatic announcements of promotion for women in recent years of University of this is the first woman to be the dean of this in the first woman to be department chairman here is that impress you or their long way to go and then major problem that we seen is that there's been a few appointments a strong feminist. in the university and the university community and I hate to coming in at this kind of time slot and schedule one hates to Macon and an analogy with the Watergate hearings that you're to go back to and I certainly don't want to be accused of staying at the University Administration is Haldeman and ehrlichman as he noticed the absence of women in both of those situations is that people have said before that if they took if they replace the University Administration completely with 1/4 the number of women at a quart of the salary because I get outrageously High salaries, then it would run just as well women who used to working that used to going by bus instead of airplane and What are women organizing is there is there increasing pressure within the university community Among The Faculty women to to improve their their status there. Do you know about this sounds in the last 2 years at Council University women's Prague programs and so forth and the problem is is that the women are just grossly overworked. Example now that every committee needs to have a token women on it. We have women serving on two or three faculty committees. And also they've had to work very hard just to get to that position. Paul Greco and I have been talking for the last a little over an hour since he's been grilling state representative Phyllis Kahn of Minneapolis who represents many of the people who who teach him to go to school and to work at the University of Minnesota and District 57a, which takes doesn't take all of Southeast a little bit of Northeast Minneapolis must think about to almost every aspect I can think of University of Minnesota and its relations with the state legislature.