A discussion by local members of the Jewish community on the eve of Rosh Hashanah, following the slayings of the Israeli delegation to the Olympic Games 1972. Hosted by Connie Goldman, who is joined by Paul Gruchow. [Please note - audio contains explicit language]
Read the Text Transcription of the Audio.
Earlier this week the international Olympic Games in Munich were interrupted by violence and Terror that resulted in the deaths of 11 members of the Israeli Olympic team. Although much of this week's public response was directly related to the Munich slang our discussion tonight. We'll probably only touch upon that incident the major concern at least as this reporter here sees it is how incidents such as this Force those who feel closely involved in personally affected to sort out their personal feelings. It seems appropriate that on this eve of Rosh Hashanah the Jewish New Year that such a discussion of attitudes and feelings be aired Paul Grieco of the ksj on new staff is here with me, a Goldman to talk with our guests who are mrs. Herbert Joshua the Twin Cities chairman of the 25th anniversary celebration of the state of Israel. Mr. Marvin.President of the st. Paul United Jewish Fund in console and Mr. Misha pain assistant professor of humanities at the University of Minnesota. Well at this time stimulated by the horror at Munich the beginning of the New Year by the Jewish calendar and the continuing unrest in the Mideast. What are the feelings of the Twin City Jewish community? No man speaks for all men. But some feelings are held by many. Can we begin today by having all of you here respond to a portion of an interview that I taped shortly after the hostages were reported killed in Munich. These are the opinions of Minneapolis. Businessman Jerome Pearl. It isn't just a matter of the death of 11 Israelis. I mean, there's Israelis were dying at the borders every day. I'm sure what it's the I can't really insensitive me is like guess it just points up. How hard it is Mewtwo? and that's going to be forever and ever it has been forever and ever and God damn it. I just don't see any end to it. If you would you would in no matter where you live with somebody going for you. Can you sound a little paranoid but to go to the Olympic Games which is a political type of thing and you look at the team and you see where the team they come from Russia. They come pull them they they come from all over you the one, the manager comes down to one point that they're Jus and it just really ticks me off at. That fact must act alone. There's a reason at their dad. There's no question is a Palestinian cause and there's no question that there. And in my mind and they all that. There is an injustice to a certain degree and not laying the blame at the feet of the Israelis or or at the feet of the Arab countries or how how the problem became raised the issue of the Palestinian Arabs. Yeah. Sure. This is to me is the other frustration that I started out. Just tell you in the beginning of this whole thing. When and how can the end it can't end there is no end. You got a million Palestinian Arabs or more and you have an almost insolvable problem the United Nations partition land the Jews were given. They're a little part. They didn't even have the most holiest of places to the Jews. That was Jerusalem. That was my hands of the Palestinian Arabs. So the Jews had a fight in 48 and they lost they really lost. They didn't win that. They already were given by the United Nations. The partition was granted. They had to fight for their survival. I guess 1956 and again in 1967. How many times you have to get hit in the head before you get the message before the Jews all over the world get the message this incident in Munich the massacre Munich makes the message very clear and if there's any Jew. or anyone Who has any feelings towards the Jewish people? Whether they are Israelis or not. This should give them the message of what I'm trying to tell you. The Jews are dispensable. Who's right and who's wrong? They're not going to sell it this way. This is what I'm saying about. How about being a Jew with it comes right back to the same thing. They finally say Okay, Joo, here's your land. You know, the world is being magnanimous. You know, what? Okay, you lost six million of your brother. And so constantly here's a little piece of desert. You know, we'll make it Bloom his ass and I will find some water and irrigated and grow something and and the juice a fine low grade will call it is real and we'll build will build here and we'll make it grow and we'll work hard. And you don't you think that's the end of it thinking they got their do they got their country. They got a couple of million people are but that's not where it ends. So somebody fights and the Jews end up with more say in the meantime all the establish countries. The Arab countries is Egypt and Syria and Iraq. they continued to say when I can let you live. Do you know you're going to go in to see we're going to push you to the seat. So I don't think it's really a question of is not a I don't know if Sadat said go ahead and kill the Israeli Olympic team of then become a bunch of Heroes. I don't think it was that regardless they are. Aquinnah Cliffs we call in fanatics, but the futility better they would say, okay. There's 11 of us was 11 of you and let's fight it out in Mortal Kombat. I think he's really would have accepted the challenge instead of you know, skull Canyon and Eminem and just senseless killing the 11 deaths are not going to destroy the state of Israel has strengthened the the the people we found it on their own history of what happens when we How to attack another country Wii U unify people when you when you attack and your mercy mercilessly and senselessly kill but it it comes back to that one point and I look at my the books in my library while six million died trials at the Nuremberg trials Exodus just endless number of books about you know, about a few million people constitute a minut portion of the population of this world and for one reason because they're Jews. That's all. That's the reason Remind me to give Israel was so valuable if they have the oil and they had all the tremendous natural resources like in there since I only wanted to go after him, but what do they want to go after him for? What? Are they going to get Tel Aviv - sand desert in or take over some people seem that to me is complete Enigma the act at Munich is just another grain of that sand in the the time jar that that's has it Jews. You're not going to every never given only piece. You know, the people say well maybe some good will come out of this killing me and maybe it'll bring the family of Nations to get that's a bunch of bulshit. We've been living with his family of Nations crap every Christmas. I hear it's no peace on Earth Goodwill towards men that seems to be fine for a few days in a year. The one valid point is that nobody really likes to do when you get right down to it. And do you know if this is this is our cross to bear we bare up, you know, what are forefathers boring but I'll tell you that early American flag that said don't tread on me all this is one drew that doesn't want to stand for that shit then I might as well. I'm really not going to I'm I'm I just said before you know it maybe it's a little paranoid but God Almighty, where does it stop when does it end? What would happen if all 12,000 athletes had marched with their countries banned? I don't know how many hundreds of countries are it represented had marched to that compound where the Arabs were holding and then let the television cameras. Focus on that and let these 12,000 athletes in one voice say give us these people these people are athletes or not. They're not soldiers fighting a war here. wouldn't that I mean to me as a Jew that would have. have Who said my faith by some unknown quantity, I would have I think probably the first time in my life, I would have thought that my God, they finally here they finally care enough. So that blacks Asians whites from all over the world March that cop on and said give us those man. This is no place for that. You wanted me to meet him on the desert and Sinai. That would have been something. But they didn't do that. They expressed regret and I'm sure they were grateful and not putting that down. button Where is it going to end? Well, does anyone here have feelings about what that man expressed? Are they any of your feelings what might you say? Message Joshua. Well, I don't really agree with him. Although I can understand that at that particular time when he talked. He felt very depressed. I I have a much more positive about her, see it's true incidents like this to happen in Jewish history, but we have a capacitive build from that and build on it and I think that's the important part that he left out. Well, I tend to agree with mrs. Joshua. I think the feelings expressed by. Mr. Pearl. I do have some basis in history. I think as we review the history of Jews over the past 2000 years and review the persecutions over this. Of time. Possibly. We Jews are a bit as we've been called a bit paranoid, but I think it's a paranoid paranoia based incense on History. However, I think we have to look at the situation within the concept of the air within the context of the arab-israeli dispute of the past 25 years. I think really to go much beyond that overly distorts the issue. I think there are some historical factors which are pertinent, but I think that possibly we should confide the historical situation to what's happened since 48 I think I agree with mr. Zig and mr. Pearls comments and point up an interesting generational Gap. I think that is the Jews in America seeing himself as isolated as in some sense cut off stateless parole pointedly masks when it when will it end and as I recall he had 1.2 said that nobody nobody likes a juul won't get this feeling that is of the ruthlessness of the Jewel from his comments. But course that has changed the state of Israel has given that you wrote. It has given him a chance to look at the situation in the context of the of the political relationship between the juvenile Europe. For your consideration, please forgive the intrusion because your enthusiasm and interest in the subject is high, but let me play for you one other recorded segment. This one also recorded very shortly after the announcement of the Munich Massacre. These are the concerns of Martin dworkin of Professor of microbiology at the University of Minnesota. I want to clear the air first. Some possible misconceptions about myself and like my prejudices in my position. I'm a Jew I'm a Jew who is very aware and concerned about his ethnic identity. I'm not what has been called a self-hating Jew. I consider that the Jews were killed in Munich on my brothers. And anything that I say has to be viewed against that is a background apart from all of the cliches that have been Express than all of the things that have been said over and over again on television. I think there are two points that have to be made in the afternoon made clearly first the business about the politicization of the Olympics and I think that the claims that have been made the self-righteous claims that have been made Protesting this active stupid violence are at best naive and at worst dishonest. In the sense that the Olympics are political they have been for a long time. And anybody who claims that they're not. Is misleading the public whether one refers to the behavior of the African States? Whether one refers to the attempts of the Russians or the United States to use the Olympics for political purposes one has to accept the fact that they are of political exercise. Now this is not to in any way condone these senseless stupid murder that has been perpetrated. But only to clear away this notion that the Olympic somehow transcend the arena of politics. I think there are very few things in the world today, which do transcended. The Olympics is certainly one of them. Which doesn't that's Point number one. Appoint number to I'm very concerned about the the tentative and as-yet unproductive attempts which have been made to arrive at some sort of accommodation between the Palestinians and the Israelis. I think that the Israelis have shown a considerable amount of intransigence of considerable reluctance to recognize the fact that there is such a thing called the Palestinian people and that they along with the Israeli people have to be recognized as a people. An accommodation has to be made for them. One of the tragedies of an event like this is that it makes coming back to a discussion of this sort of thing even more difficult. If not impossible me who can stand up at this moment and say the Israelis have got to talk to the Palestinians and the tragedy is that what has happened has happened not because of the actions of the Palestinians as a whole but it happened because of the actions of a a a group of of militant World revolutionaries who don't reflect in any sense the will of the Palestinian people now, I know as as sure as I know my own name, I know that the response of American Jewelry is going to be to become even more close-minded than they have been in the past 2 riding in any kind of accommodation in this problem and that to me seems to be almost equal with the tragedy of these nine Israelis being killed. Include them also dealing with the larger problem. We want is a tactical problem. The other is a strategic problem and they certainly have the know-how incapability of dealing with gorillas and dealing with Gorilla bases and the act of doing so need not blind them to the continuing this essity of searching for ways to deal with the larger Palestinian people. That we started out talking about I started out talking about the reaction of American troops about lady Israelis react to the problem because you didn't realize their country not mine, but I am concerned about how my fellow Jews here in the United States react. That's one of the things that I want to emphasize in an hour discussion here. I know that you feel that very few American Jews would feel particularly at this time as you do when certainly even some that may may be hesitant to express it because any sympathy for a legitimate Palestinian claim just seems inappropriate to dwell on it at this time for many. Is this deep sadness out of our systems at least temporarily? I don't think that you will ever get this sadness out of his system, but it'll have to be. Of time during which is a shock the trauma the sadness of these murders diminishes and until that happens. It's going to be very difficult for anybody to stand up and say but look through this is terrible things that happened in and let's talk about what's behind a psychologically that's just a very difficult thing to do at this moment. You seem to have great fear that if the Israeli government doesn't deal with the Palestinian problem in a realistic way as you see it. There isn't going to be a chance of a peaceful settlement in the Mideast. I think that's the Crux of of all of the problems in the Mideast. I think that the despite arguments to the contrary which I've had with friends of mine who are Israelis. I feel that the problem is not with Egypt problem is not with George and problem is not with Lebanon problem is with the Palestinians. And if the Israelis were to solve the problem of the Palestinians Then the other territorial difficulties which they have with with their neighbors and With Many Nations have with their neighbors would fall into place. I think it's a distraction writing in perhaps a deliberate distraction for the Israelis continually to keep harping on the border problems with the Arab Nations refused to consider in any serious way the problems with Palestinians. What do you mean by a deliberate distraction whom are they deliberately distracting? I think they're deliberately distracting their own people. They're deliberately distracting the Jews in the diaspora. We will have when I think an important spiritual and financial role to play in the state of Israel doesn't seem acceptable. For a good Jew to take your position. At least it hasn't there hasn't been room for this position in the past want to make some observations on their first degree with your observation. I think that the position of the Jewish Defense League despite the apparent condemnations or or the outward condemnations many Jews simply isn't fashionable to support the jdl. I think there's a lurking admiration and a latent sympathy. for the sort of position that the jdl river reflects at the expense of the position on the other side of the spectrum which is a position I'm trying to reflect is that the solution to the problem is not a this kind of mindless violence which strikes out against the symptoms, but rather some kind of thoughtful attempt to redress the basic problem itself. I think that it has become increasingly difficult for the American Jew to Display any kind of sympathy for this latter position perhaps one of the reasons is that this has been a peculiar by product. Of this heightened awareness of one's ethnic dignity in one's ethnic identity to the extent that one accepts the idea. That black is beautiful for Jewish is beautiful. I think one has a tendency to lose some of the more Universal imperatives. I think this is what has been happening now. It seems to me that we've heard here a couple of rather distinct points of view on the one hand of the part of you that much at the heart of the problem symbolized by Munich is an almost insurmountable ethnic Prejudice on the part of the people of the world against Jews and the second part of the problem with that is represented by the tragedy is his political problem in large part a problem that and which Israel needs to seek some kind of political accommodation with with the Palestinians and that's that's the real nature of much of what's going on. I wonder where might we start with you. Mr. Panda. Where are you falling in this division of opinion? I said I said the earlier on most pearls comments. I think reflects the attitudes of this country. And that is what what day is coming to express of some sort of abstracted idea of that you as I said earlier being ruthless and stateless and it's easy then to move if one has this abstract idea but you to some sort of abstracted idea of Terror perpetrated against him, but I think that the state of Israel means surely that the Jew does have Global blue roll never had before and if we're going to try to some way understand what to place it mean if we're going to have to see it in that context in that light to say so I simply disavowal that What about the jewel of that? That's the one I call it abstracted image or idea that you in the in the Palestinian question didn't do you accept walk-ins view that that the problem the political problems that his real faces is strictly a Palestinian question and not a question of sub-genres relations with the Arab countries in the Middle East. I think the problem with the Palestinians, but I think we'll have to see that problem against the background of the interactions between the Jews and the other Arab Nations to say but I think I think so. He's on the right track. I think there is an issue there. I think what he's going to put it this way. I think that's what he's worried about. And to some extent I can sympathize with him is that there's a lot that there's unfinished business might say and that one might be distracted from from dealing with these concrete issues as a result of what took place at the unit. I think that's what he's worried about it with him on this because when he says that Israel should not discuss their problems with their Nation surrounded. I I think he's just not realistic. The Palestinians are part of the country is part of Egypt Spotify Jordan part of Syria and Lebanon and there really is no Central Palestinian to discuss the problem with I think everybody realizes that is a problem, but you can't discuss if they even each terrorist group operate separately and individually from all the other groups and the only people Israel can deal with all the government of the neighboring countries, and it isn't realistic to Say they avoiding this and that. I bet you know that that that that that they are not presenting this issue properly. I also think at the same time. He said which has been said a lot this week that the world revolutionaries and that it really was just so happened that they are once and they're working guest Israelis and they could have been from another country and and down the Revolutionary Pizza some other people my conversation with mr. Dworkin made me concerned about this matter. How much latitude is there for an American Jew and taking a position counter to complete support of the actions of the state of Israel? Well, if I might comment on that, I think mr. Dworkin goes a bit overboard in indicating that the Jews of America must blindly follow a position taken by the state of Israel. I I think that's not true at all. And I think we're obviously free to disagree. I think we must differentiate between disagreement and intervention and do the writings of the government Affairs of the state of Israel. Just as we some people are concerned that Israel may be intervening in a sense of the political situation in the country at the present time. I'm a little bit concerned about mr. Dworkin's attempting to draw a dichotomy between the Palestinians and the Arab countries as such I think that's an oversimplification. I don't think it's done my own thinking I've been somewhat hesitant are reticent in in supporting a position which Deals Only with the Arab countries. Similarly. I would be equally supportive of a decision with said we will deal only with the Palestinians because I don't think either of you fun recognizes the power situation as it exists in the Middle East obviously where you have surrounding states with which you're at War you must seek means of resolving your your problems with these countries where you have a group of people and I tend to agree that the Palestinians are a force which must be dealt with the Palestinian refugee situation exists. Unless ultimately be dealt with I think we've got to find the Israeli government has got to find some means of opening communication with the people. I believe that Such Communications have existed just as Communications have existed with the Arab countries, but I don't think you can deal with one to the exclusion of the other and I think the view watch History dworkin expresses. It is not view which is peculiar to have I think there's a growing minority and it's still a minority sentiment in the state of Israel among young intellectuals which share some of the views which he's expressed. And I I think that okay, if you'd read this a book by a misaligned called the founders and Sons Israelis Founders and son that expresses some of these same fused but I think that again we mustn't oversimplify no view in Israel today of any substance. view, which I've indicated would accept the premise that the state of Israel must go out of existence each of the views precedes on the From the very basic starting point of the state of Israel is here at exist and must be ultimately recognized as a sovereign state by its neighbors support for Israel is a position not only for American Jews but is a position for people in America general question of how far as supportive as for the state of Israel is a concept goes and how it how it limits political choice and I didn't get to very real problem to talk about when I think in all Candor one has to say that in American politics whether one is obliged to support without any real question the actions of the Israeli government. That's that's just the nature of how politics in the United States George McGovern is obliged to say after Munich that it's really all the fault of Egypt and those Arab countries and we've got to do something about the Arabs end of the president is obliged to say that I will support Israel in the argument in politics in the United States comes down to who who supports Israel more and doesn't that back politicians seeking Solutions into an awkward Corner that it's a practical problem that has peed out with him. Thought I think any politician who would permit himself to be back to that. The corner isn't worth it down. I would hope that after he has reviewed the merits of the situation and his come to that conclusion. We would say that that was a reasoned conclusion. You know, many of my friends ask me. You know, it is your support of Israel blind as an American. Do you have a dual loyalty etcetera etcetera etcetera. We've heard the question and my response has been up to this point. I have found certainly no inconsistencies with my loyalties either to the state of Israel. My loyalties to America or my loyalties to my fellow Jew and I don't believe I I baste a tonic hysterical approach approach, which I have reasoned out for myself and you know, we could get into the merits of the discussion to Bob Israel as a democracy in the Middle East and are the United States interests. Otherwise affected is this a country which Meet certain humanitarian meet needs which people as a whole should recognize and I don't want to monopolize the discussion. I'd be interested. This is Joshua and hearing your comments on that you spend some of your time and several oil teasing that can be both very strong. I think people misunderstand the emotional Ties That Jews have with Israel. It doesn't mean that you have to agree with everything is just like with a person who can care for a person very much you disagree violently, but we have this this inside feeling that's very very strong. And I think I probably takes us after the first tape. That's why we react very strongly when these things happen like in Munich, but that doesn't really blind us to when their problems and I think Jews are very much aware of the problems in Israel and voice. The opinion in many different directions like in any other government is no one Israeli point of you. I think everybody agrees that Israel has to survive and has two to watch a security very carefully, but within their Spectrum them any ideas and BB forget that sometimes just like any other people I think this might get back in the position of wanting to be very careful because where it's at its kind of I guess racist thing but do you want to get into the position of not appearing to be at ease medic and that forces you into a I was kind of support for Israel in political terms as you see it in politicians in this country that is almost irrational blind and it's my turn is probably more problem. I think that that when you're comfortable with what you are you don't have some of these very negative problem since it has no and then there's no way out except what you are you work with it, you know, and I think she was in general have his ability even in the tragedy to just go on and plan whatever is being planned and and and continue. I think you noticed that is really good idea Whenever there is a big tragedy happened people get very upset, but they go right on and I think it's sort of a Jewish philosophy. I'm really much more interested frankly and and many of the things that police. Mr. Pearl has to say at this point in terms of how the Americans you views himself in relation to Israel. You know, mr. Perfect put it delicately I think political basis. But if we began to take a look at the experience of the Americans you if you look at the you know how he understands himself in relationship to Israel and how he sees himself in the context of the dashboard history diasporic history of the Jew number of problems that come up with, you know, simply can't be dealt with smoothly at the political level one might say and global politics as I listen to a voice crying in the wilderness. I said earlier that he had to say it is saying that you was somebody sequestered isolated without any help at all. And so he's amazed in one sense. It would happen to the Jews in Munich another since he's not is it going to be consistent saying is thinking if you think about what he said, but I see what I hear what he is saying as a realization of Dealing with his being an American and yet always being seen as a Jew so that situations arise don't said she has no problem with this. Mr. Pirsig also indicated that I hesitate to bring it up, but it seems to be the essence of the whole matter at this point. We Jews here are Americans and the two tapes that you heard forever balance off this being an American and being a Jew and trying to work out their religion. Is it working recognizes fully and fervently his jewishness, but at the same time, there's a kind of meditation kind of And what he has to say about Israel's relationship with the Arabs in general with Palestinians in particular as if he's trying to work out some sort of moral basis acceptable moral basis for his position with respect to his right out. Where is on the other hand just parole as simply crying in the wilderness really if you think about it, they both really do have a different approach to the problem of Israel 1/5 and 1 and 1/5 on the other end, but it's how we can synchronize this Tuesday to ideas for the not slept for many of us. Then the end of World War II. And I look at my own development over this. Of time and look at the development of the Jewish community of the Twin Cities and of the United States end of the world with which I'm somewhat familiar and during this. Of time. I've seen a A growth natural cohesion more or less in the position of world jewelry a position which I've come to describe really as the unity of the Jewish people the incident at Munich shocked many people that horrified many people television sets brought into their living rooms. But I think that while many people were shocked too many people were horrified. It was for the Jewish people to Marne this incident. I just as they mourned the hanging of the Iraqi Jews just as They Mourn the Leningrad trials just as They Mourn the ambushing of Innocents school children in the Galilee. This is become really part of our Bingo does mrs. Joshua says we go on and we continue and rebuild I recently returned as matter of fact a week ago today from a very short trip to the state of Israel were the major preoccupation with the people in that country as what the people in this country. It's amazing is the situation of the Soviet jewry situation today in the ransom, which is being extracted for human lives. You would think that they have enough problems of their own problems, which have a Q Play it over there in the Years certain social welfare education housing a problems there people are becoming a bit uneasy, you know, it's time that we have a little bit more for a selfie at the major preoccupation. What do we do for the Soviet Jews? How do we alleviate their situation? How do we get them into our country? How do we integrate them? And then again, this is part of the unity of the Jewish people, which I have seen developing. I think as I have seen that Unity develop This is really made better Americans of those of us who live in America. I think it's given to a certain feeling to the Jews of America. I think young people have reacted. I think those who came from a European atmosphere years ago, and I had their problems integrating into American society now have a better feeling overall. I think it's been a very positive unifying experience for us. I had an interesting sensation out of the Munich tragedy that. Maybe you can help me to analyze them. It was it was interesting to me that you were talking about how the Munich tragedy was one of those things that much left to the Jewish people to mourn but it strikes me that Mom of one of the things that was characteristic of the minute tragedies was the grip all of America not just choose in a very strong fashion. It was a thing that swept through the country than that the people responded to weather that we choose your not with some emotion than widget grab their attention and grab the attention of the news media in a way for example at the tragedy in the other bengalis never would have more in the way that they are the deaths of some of the people that Neil I really never quit. Hey, how come it is that even on Jews in the United States respond to a tragedy like Munich so much more personally than I do too. Similar situations elsewhere in the world. What does that mean for the American to? Well, I can't believe that. I would like to believe that I have difficulty believing that this situation would have much more meaning would have anymore meaning to the average American Dad a Slaughter of bengalis in Olympic stadium in in Munich. This may be a harsh criticism. And I guess I have for this reason I really haven't been swept up with the same type of emotion in the Munich situation as others. I feel that much of the reaction is the fact that the television cameras were turned on Munich Stadium. I brought a horror certain horror into the living room the same horror, which would have existed had a then other people and it occurred at a time when you know people were sitting back they when they wanted to see the track men or the swimmers and here there instead. They saw our horror show on that they Acted with horror and revulsion tell if there's any consolation in this whole situation. I believe it's the fact that a situation such as this was brought home to many people in the world. And for the first time they're starting to think about the condition of man, you know, it's just another example of man's inhumanity to man. What what do we do about a situation like this? How do we say to the party? You've got to solve your problems? You got to sit down and talk to each other. Nobody can do it for you. No solution can be forced on you start talkin, but solve it cuz the world won't tolerate a similar situation. That's one of the points of my question. It is just another example of man's inhumanity to man and once and I'm very special. Reminiscences if you wish which the killing of Munich brings to light the kind of symbolic perhaps significance of it. I mean the idea that you know that I put it without being too blunt, but that you know that they're there isn't much of a premium put upon you know of a Jewish life working fear, which many Jews have too many non-jews. I think recognize the accident happened in Germany is it might be I don't know. I can't stand myself couldn't really understand the killing of the Jews in the Holocaust time of the masses in the quantities in the type of thing. He asks what you had a number it was a small enough number to to cope with and I think Brought home the paper for the first time what it really meant to a Jew because I think the Jewish people felt very much. This was the same type of thing. Somebody just kills you because you're a Jew and you could see it because they were eleven one thing X The Six Million. You can't even picture it. I think this had an impact on non Jewish world. I hadn't thought of it before but it probably didn't I was thinking of it as I watch the television that at least this time you had a way of paying on it to the people and there was a way of showing this which we had never had before and I don't know what it is because they did something good come out of this but Ashley every one of these events, I think that he's up to something we said it before but every one of these Jewish tragedy sometimes as even in a positive way. I mean when you tell me about the unity of the Jewish people, I think 30 years ago. It wasn't taken for granted did Jews would be as strong as a people is there now and I'm not talking about right or wrong right before the high holidays now is not the time to do that. They had some purpose to it somehow and I think many people feel that way. This is Joshua funeral service across the country a service which I didn't see and then maybe it's appropriate to comment and view of the coming Rosh Hashanah holiday season a time at which we look back to the past here and look forward to the future that during the service throughout the service. There is a prayer said which is called the kaddish prayer and this is also a prayer which is sad. At a funeral by those who mourn and the last lines of that prayer are Mayhew he who makes peace in high places make peace for us all and for all Israel and For All Mankind and I would think that as we approach the holiday season, we couldn't ask for a better wishing a better prayer. And I I got resume to that very much. And I one of the things that concerns me is however the Deep regard for Israel in a deep love for his real tragedy this kind of grief and can lead to a kind of psychological Dead ending if you know what I mean, we Jews have always prided ourselves back since we've always emphasized the importance of Justice. And even when Justice might mean that we have to perhaps even in this is the hardest thing to say and I'm sure you're all of us here who are Jews even when it might mean that we should perhaps even try to Garner some compassion for those terrorists founding of the flu. They are and what they did. You see you'll notice that freaking Apple. They said very little about the Palestinian there a problem. Maybe they talked about the $200 or so a terrorist or incarcerated the present time in Israel. And I found that if you know, I find that fascinating it's almost as if this acts of Terror of there as was in some sort of some sense of identity, but I think they're what we have to do is try to make it too and sometimes possible try to grasp what you know, and try to grasp the significance not the same. You know. Upon them as if they were, you know Mad Men, I mean, obviously this this action was staged it was the point I'm trying to make is that on the one hand coming back from stupor limited working. I respond and being the material generation it is you know, what is revolving is crying the Wilderness but on the other hand I see him with working to saying perhaps of the beginnings of some sort of compassionate understanding of those who are non-jews those around us and our relationship to them and if we could lose sight of that And I guess I respond to very emotionally to this entire conversation of personal feelings and concerns and I'm very grateful on the eve of Rosh Hashanah to have you here discussing this problem. We have these problems I think is more appropriate to say we I guess we've only begun a discussion certainly not solved anything, but maybe put more firmly our feelings in place. I want to thank mrs. Herbert Joshua the Twin City chairman of the 25th anniversary celebration of the state of Israel. Mr. Marvin perfectly president of the same Paul United Jewish Fund in console and Mister miship an assistant professor of humanities at the University of Minnesota, and I want to thank you to Paul for sitting in here tonight. Thank you all and Happy New Year.