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TOM WEBER: This is NPR News. I'm Tom Weber. This year marks 50 years since the assassination of Malcolm X. There's going to be a conference this weekend in Minneapolis to explore present day conversations about race and civil rights through the lens of Malcolm X and his teachings. This is the second of these conferences, second year of it organized by a longtime political activist and community organizer and writer Mel Reeves, who joins me in the studio now. Mel, welcome.

MEL REEVES: Thank you for having me.

TOM WEBER: Why shape a series of talks here in Minneapolis, specifically around Malcolm X? Why do that?

MEL REEVES: Well, Tom, it's a little more than a series of talks. We actually have a little of everything. There's actually some art. We'll have some drumming and we'll have a little skit. But we'll have a panel discussion. And the reason for it is that, you know, Malcolm X is a person who pretty much challenged things-- part of why he's not alive. You know, he challenged the system. He challenged things as they are. And I think, considering what's going on in our world, his ideas-- it's a good time for folks to resurrect his ideas and what he suggested to do about some of the problems that we're experiencing.

TOM WEBER: Last year you had a conference, and since then, look at all that's happened.

MEL REEVES: Yes, exactly.

TOM WEBER: Ferguson, kind of if we think about that as the start of what has been this big, big conversation, right? And so I'm wondering what has happened in the past year shapes what you'll be discussing this weekend.

MEL REEVES: Well, we're probably going to have a little more interest because of Ferguson and Baltimore and, you know, the numerous police shootings and killings. So that has people's ear up, so to speak. And I think it is going to help us draw a bigger crowd. People are concerned. How do we stop this? How do we push back? People are frustrated because it doesn't seem as if anybody has any solutions. It's almost as if-- it sounds strange, but it's almost as if it's kind of part of the environment, of our environment, part of our climate.

It's like something we just, I suppose, to get used to. We sure shouldn't get used to that kind of thing in a democracy. So the timing is really good. I think it's going to definitely bring people out. We're actually going to have one workshop on the role of police in US society.

TOM WEBER: The thought being what? What is the role? What do you think will come with that conversation?

MEL REEVES: It's a Malcolm X conference, so we're going to call it like it is. You know, politically the real role of the police is-- in fact, most people know this without thinking about it, you know, is to protect private property. You know, most people make fun of the idea of to protect and serve. And folks realize that it's not really set up to, you know, protect and serve, you know, us, poor folks, and especially people of color. And from our perspective, you know, police serve the role of reinforcing the stereotypes in society and reinforcing the class separation.

TOM WEBER: That's certainly something I know. For example, we had police Chief Harteau on a few weeks ago and she was saying, no, I don't know that-- I don't know that she would totally agree with what you said that there is--

MEL REEVES: I'm sure she wouldn't.

TOM WEBER: I'm sure there is a public service aspect that we-- you know, the line I've heard, especially from Bill Kenney, former police chief in St. Paul, is that we have to remember, if nothing else from these conversations about police, it's that police serve the public. And if we can re-energize and reconnect with that concept, that that's a start.

MEL REEVES: Well, Tom, if you sat a kid in here from Ferguson or Baltimore, Chicago, a lot of folks who've had-- they have a total different-- they would tell you-- their definition would be based on their experience. There's a lot of people's definitions of things are. So that would sound good but that's not how-- that's not the police that they see. And that might be the police that you see in a diner or Plymouth or Wayzata or, you know, Little Canada or something, but that's not the experience that people have in the inner city for the most part.

Two different ways of policing almost, which is why, as a recent study came out, that-- what-- young Blacks were arrested, like-- what-- nine times more than whites. So that tells you that something's going on. Maybe the public service in your community-- but in our community, you know, people take them, watch them kind of warily. You know, they're hoping that everything works out. But there's always a chance that police can get hostile. I've seen it happen on many occasions where police are called.

People don't talk to them. You have to be really careful how you speak to them. If you don't speak to them with quite the right tone-- and you know, when the police are called, most times, people are frazzled. They're already in emotional state. So they're not going to be calm necessarily. I've seen people mishandle folks because they weren't calm and they were emotional. I've seen this stuff. And so that sounds good, but that's not our reality.

TOM WEBER: Mel Reeves is with me. He's a writer. He's a community organizer. He's organizing, in fact, an event tomorrow at Harvest Prep School in Minneapolis to look into the legacy of Malcolm X. But also, as we've been doing, weave in conversations about today's conversations about race and civil rights. So what is it that Malcolm x, I guess, Mel-- what is it about Malcolm X that would inform today's conversations? Are you saying we should be taking a page from Malcolm X?

MEL REEVES: Well, Malcolm X was a real common sense kind of activist. He said, if something's not working, you got to change it. I mean, he was a very common sense guy. And he would say, you know-- for example, he didn't have much love for the Democrats or the Republicans. And from his perspective-- and I agree with him-- both parties seemed to never be able to solve the issue of racism and discrimination in our country. In fact, he said he would never ask anybody to vote Democrat or Republican because both parties have sold us out.

And so that's a different perspective. But remember, you're old enough, Tom, to remember the '60s and '70s. There were people who agreed with Malcolm that it's time for a change. If this system can't produce what we need, then maybe it's time to look toward another one.

TOM WEBER: You know, you'll recall the history, especially when Martin Luther King Jr. And Malcolm X were both alive, as I recall, there was tension, especially on the right tactics, on the proper way to do this. Malcolm X, or I should say Martin Luther King was more about the nonviolent activism. And as I understand it, right, Malcolm X was less so of that. And is that a tension that--

MEL REEVES: Well, no, no, actually--

TOM WEBER: Say more about that.

MEL REEVES: It's a misnomer. You know, the press made a point, big business press made a point of keeping people confused about it. No, Malcolm X simply said that if you hit me, I ought to be able to defend myself, right? And the nonviolent movement that MLK was leading, Malcolm, disagreed with initially. And Martin King, actually, while he was preaching nonviolence, he had some folks around him, like the Deacons For Defense, who were prepared to defend him. I mean, he wasn't always, you know, aware of that kind of thing. But down South, a lot of Blacks took the position that we have the right to defend ourselves.

And Malcolm Martin-- Malcolm X rather, took issue with it a little bit because he said that what it was doing was defaming folks and that by just taking a passive position, you were allowing people to brutalize you and actually encourage it more. So Malcolm X actually said that we ought to defend ourselves. But as you know, the nonviolent deal was more of a tactic than a strategy.

TOM WEBER: Right.

MEL REEVES: And for Martin King, it was a way of life, no doubt. But for most of the people in the Civil Rights Movement, it was a strategy and a tactic, you know, because they might go and sit quietly on a line. But, you know, later on, if you hit them, they were going to hit you back. [CHUCKLES] That simple. So it was a strategy. And then Malcolm X finally said near the end of his life that he thought there were going to be a revolution in this country. He said it was going to be-- he thought it would be a nonviolent one.

TOM WEBER: So bring us forward 50 years. Has it happened? Is it going to? Is it about to?

MEL REEVES: Is what going to happen?

TOM WEBER: The revolution.

MEL REEVES: Oh, well, what do you think? I mean, it looks like we're going further backwards. It looks like we're going more backwards than forwards.

TOM WEBER: Is that true though? I mean, talk more about that, because I think that since Ferguson, especially-- certainly, and I know that this isn't enough of an answer, but there would be, say, hey, at least it's on the psyche, right? At least, we're talking about it way more. Isn't there something to be said for that.

MEL REEVES: Well, if you're Mike Brown or, you know, brother Fred Gray, that didn't help you much.

TOM WEBER: But don't the conversations-- I mean, right, this the hope that they actually lead to change?

MEL REEVES: They don't. That's what Malcolm would say. They have not. I've had many conversations, and the conversations do not lead to change. In fact, there are some people who would suggest that when the kids start throwing rocks back at the cops and when there was a little bit of rioting, for lack of a better word, then there was a response, of course, you know, that the legal system hasn't played that thing all the way out yet. But, you know, there's folks are saying, well, you know, it seemed like, you know, the district attorney sang a different song in Baltimore after there were some riots.

So, you know, people are looking at that and people get frustrated. I mean, when you're sitting in a position where you're comfortable and that's not something that's going to touch you, then you can kind of sit back and say, well, let's talk about it. But if your house is about to burn, you know, that's an emergency. You see, we got to get some water. We've got to figure out how to put it out. And so that's where people in our community stand. This is a problem. It's not something that we can sit back and do studies about. It's affecting us right now.

TOM WEBER: Well, community policing, right? That's a phrase you hear a lot about, community policing. I've heard it a lot in the conversations we've had. Is that a good idea? Is it helpful? Where do you go from here?

MEL REEVES: Well, ideally, it would be helpful. But you see, as I pointed out earlier-- and the statistics back me up. The statistics, the anecdotal evidence back me up. Let me ask you a-- why do you think there's a term in our vernacular called driving while Black? Why do you think that exists?

TOM WEBER: Well, we've talked about it on this show, that-- because the preponderance of experience, right, by young Blacks, especially young Black males, has informed that in the popular culture.

MEL REEVES: And the statistics to back that up, right? So the reality on the ground is that the police department are doing a different kind of law enforcement. We've got to acknowledge it. We've got to stop. You can't say, oh, we're public servants and we really want to do right by you, and then you continue to do wrong. It's like, Tom, if you were to step on my foot, you know, if you stepped on my foot once, twice, and said, oh, I'm sorry. Third time, I'm sorry, and let's talk about it. After the fourth or fifth time, I'd say to myself, hmm, maybe that's Tom's strategy.

Tom's stepping on my foot on purpose, and he doesn't really want me to push him off. So he'll say, you know, let's just talk about it while he continues to step on my foot. So at that point, common sense is going to say this is happening on purpose.

TOM WEBER: Have there been improvements in the past year? Can you point to anything?

MEL REEVES: I can't.

TOM WEBER: Really?

MEL REEVES: Not in this town, no. I mean, the only thing that happened recently was the loitering and the spitting ordinances were repealed. And what's going to happen-- and I'm not a cynic, Tom. I'm just telling you as it is. What's going to happen is the police will find other ways. They'll use the obstruction of justice charge or disorderly conduct to harass folks. I have young people in the community who tells me that if they're standing on a certain corner, the cops automatically assume they're part of a gang. Now, no doubt the gangs exist without question. Is everybody in one?

No, not even close. That's you know-- it gets hyped by the press on some level. Small percentage of kids are in the gang. Even over in North Minneapolis, if you stand on a certain corner, cops stop you, you know, in America, I mean, so these are the things that happen. So there's the reality and there's the ideology. The ideology does us no good.

TOM WEBER: What has to happen? Make me a list. What are the first three things we have to do then? If you don't think there's been any improvement--

MEL REEVES: Well, I mean, this is what we're talking--

TOM WEBER: Well--

MEL REEVES: I mean, we just came out with stats the other day.

TOM WEBER: No, I--

MEL REEVES: It's not Mel talking now. I'm just repeating the stats.

TOM WEBER: I'm just curious what it is that-- what it is then. How do you change it? What do you do?

MEL REEVES: Well, you have to have a police force that actually is of the people. You have to have a system, see? So they are reinforcing the rules of the system. As I said, you got to get rid of racism. They're reinforcing the racist stereotypes. You know, they're reinforcing the anti-immigrant perspective a lot of folks have. They're reinforcing kind of sexist attitudes people have. They're reinforcing homophobia on some level. They're reinforcing the idea that, you know, that corporations are automatically right, the rich are automatically right, and the poor are automatically wrong.

The other piece of this, Tom, that we haven't even touched on is that our jails are filled with people. The folks who are filling those folks-- filling those jails are the police. And lots of those people should not be in jail. But the police have wide discretion, so they're not doing anything that looks like service to us. They're filling jails. They're putting people in jail for smoking, you know, marijuana, you know? I mean, I hung out in the suburbs and people smoke marijuana openly.

Nobody bothers them, you know? If you're walking down the street in my neighborhood, the police are looking to see if you have marijuana on you so they can arrest you. So there's an uneven application of the law. That's the reality of where we live in. And so to change that, we have to set up-- we have to have-- the very first thing we do-- and they don't seem to want to give us this-- is want to be able to hire and fire the cops. They say that there's good and bad cops. So get rid of the bad cops. I don't see any police department cleaning out the bad cops.

I hear that when you sit down with them and you put pressure on them. And they say, well, you know, it's not all of us. It doesn't really matter. In fact, in our law, if you're somewhere and somebody-- you're with somebody and somebody shoots someone, you're called an accomplice. You're charged as an accessory, right? So the cops who are supposedly good, from my perspective, are just accomplices. They're just accessories to the crimes that are committed by the so-called bad cops. So that's our reality. I would like to tell you something different.

And so we have to do-- we have to have a real live civilian review board. You know, a lot of people pushing for the cops to have cameras, but they've shown that they can turn those off. And now we see plenty of film now, we see plenty of film of police misbehavior, sometimes--

TOM WEBER: Not from body cams. From smartphone cameras and all that.

MEL REEVES: So my point is that even with body cams, you may see it, but that doesn't mean that the police are going to be disciplined. On some occasions they-- on some occasions, they have. So that has improved the things a little bit. So you need a civilian review that has actual subpoena power, that actually can pull cops to the table, that actually can fire folks when they are violating our rights. And then you need-- what we need in our community is community policing. But it's going to be difficult because we live in an unjust system, as Malcolm X called it out. And again, we wouldn't have to argue about it. I can just pull out statistics to make that point.

TOM WEBER: What would you say-- what would you say to someone, though, who says, you know, right, your comment was, we have to get rid of racism. I think there's probably agreement on that, right, pretty universal agreement. But you don't do that in one day. And what would you say to someone who says, well, look, OK, but for example, Minneapolis did get rid of that spitting and lurking ordinance. Why isn't that a good first step? Why don't we take a moment and say, look, that's on-- that we have done something that we're on our way to fixing?

MEL REEVES: Well, yeah, it's a step, but the problems are structural, you see? This is a structural-- these problems are systemic. And so those are just cosmetic things, you know, until you change the culture, the culture of the police department. If you could put a camera in the average police station, it will blow your mind with them-- and listen to the conversation they have, they're actually hostile toward most communities, and not just to a Black people. [SCOFFS] A lot of them are hostile toward poor white people. They're hostile toward youth in general.

They're hostile toward people who are Muslim. They're hostile toward folks who are homosexual. There's a lot of hostility in the police. There's a culture of hostility that exists in most of these police departments. And so how can folks who are hostile to folks actually play the role of servant? You can't be both at the same time.

TOM WEBER: Very briefly, what do you hope comes out of the conference?

MEL REEVES: Yes, good, now, we get back to the conference.

TOM WEBER: Well, very briefly here. We have only about a few seconds, unfortunately.

MEL REEVES: I wanted to talk more about it, but that's fine.

TOM WEBER: I know.

MEL REEVES: I'm hoping that people will better understand some of Malcolm X's ideas and understand that, as Malcolm would say, it's important to stand up and to fight back against the wrongs and evils that you experience in the system and not continue to do the same things over and over. In other words, you know, if the Democrats and the DFL aren't going to help us solve our problems, then we need to try some independent avenues. We need to try some new things. And can you continue to protest if we have to protest? Picket, whatever we have to do, but when we're experiencing injustice, we have to stand up and fight back.

TOM WEBER: We'll put information online too about the event tomorrow on our website, mprnews.org. Mel, thank you.

MEL REEVES: Thank you.