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[MUSIC PLAYING] SPEAKER: Coming up on The first hour of Midmorning, some say they're cursed, graduating into a recession and competing for jobs with their elders. But our guests say there are ways for new grads to break through a very tough job market, a double header on jobs on Midmorning today, so stay with us and join in.

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SPEAKER: First news.

PAUL BROWN: From NPR News in Washington, I'm Paul Brown. The White House is lobbying heavily to pass landmark climate change legislation as the House prepares to vote on the bill. NPR's David Welna has more.

DAVID WELNA: President Obama himself is leading the White House lobbying effort. Yesterday, he called on both House Democrats and Republicans to back legislation he said would cost households the price of a postage stamp per day.

PRESIDENT OBAMA: I know this is going to be a close vote in part because of the misinformation that's out there that suggests there's somehow a contradiction between investing in clean energy and our economic growth.

DAVID WELNA: But like most republicans, Michigan's Thaddeus McCotter opposes a bill he calls cap and tax.

THADDEUSS MCCOTTER: I think it's going to have a devastating impact on the national economy. It's going to cost jobs and cost families money that they can't stand, not only in good times, but in a recession.

DAVID WELNA: Some democrats, including New York's Dan Maffei, object to compromises in the bill made to pick up support.

DAN MAFFEI: But this is a bill that, frankly, in my view, doesn't go far enough.

DAVID WELNA: Maffei said he remained undecided. David Welna, NPR news, the Capitol.

PAUL BROWN: The president is meeting this morning with German Chancellor, Angela Merkel. They're scheduled to appear before reporters later in the morning and then meet through lunch to discuss a number of issues, including climate change, Iran, and the economy. Consumer spending rose in May for the first time since February. The Commerce Department expected an increase as people spent economic stimulus money.

Personal incomes posted an increase larger than analysts had expected, and the savings rate also rose. Consumer spending makes up more than 70% of economic activity in the US. In Africa, shocked Michael Jackson fans have reacted with disbelief and sadness at the pop star's death at age 50. In Nigeria, a radio host broke into tears on the air. From Dakar, Senegal, NPR's Ofeibea Quist-Arcton looks back at Michael Jackson's long association with Africa.

OFEIBEA QUIST-ARCTON: Here in Senegal, fans may remember Michael Jackson's first visit to the continent aged just 14, when the lead singer of the Jackson 5 emerged from a plane, said, this is where I come from, and immediately began dancing with Senegalese drummers and dancers. In 1999, Jackson was presented with a Lifetime Achievement Honor by Nelson Mandela at the KORA All Africa Music Awards.

Bestowed with the traditional chieftaincy in Ivory Coast in 1992, he caused offense by holding his nose throughout the visit as if to keep out a bad smell. Jackson's most enduring contribution to Africa is probably We are the World, co-written with Lionel Richie raising millions of dollars for famine relief in Ethiopia and the region in the 1980s. Ofeibea Quist-Arcton, NPR news, Dakar.

PAUL BROWN: Checking Wall Street, the Dow Jones Industrial Average is down 37 points at 84.35 The NASDAQ is down four. The S&P 500 down three points. This is NPR News.

SPEAKER: Support for news comes from the Pew Charitable Trusts, working through its biomedical programs to encourage scientific discovery and improve health At pewtrusts.org.

PHIL PICARDI: From Minnesota Public Radio News, I'm Phil Picardi. The Pawlenty administration has revised its plan to erase a $2.7 billion budget deficit. The changes restore funding for a private facility that houses people with mental illnesses and funding directed to the White Earth band. But it makes additional cuts to other health and human services programs.

Homeless advocates say the governor's plan for unallotment will only magnify the state's homeless problem. The governor is scuttling a health insurance program for low-income single people called GAMC. Liz Kuoppala with the Minnesota Coalition for the Homeless, says GAMC and other health and human services programs being cut serve Minnesota's most vulnerable citizens and are the only thing keeping some of them from living on the streets.

LIZ KUOPPALA: With the governor's unallotments, the people will be forcing into homelessness are people with significant disabilities and significant barriers to achieve success on their own.

PHIL PICARDI: Kuoppala says some clients will lose funding for their prescription medications as well. Agriculture officials in Minnesota and Iowa are asking US Agriculture Secretary Tom Vilsack, a former Iowa governor, to help the struggling pork industry by using $50 million to buy pork products. Vilsack's office says he's concerned about problems in the pork market, but the USDA has already bought more than 50 million pounds of pork products for food programs, and no money is left for more purchases this fiscal year.

The Timberwolves have made a teenage basketball phenom from Spain their top pick in the first round of the NBA draft. 18-year-old Ricky Rubio was picked fifth overall. Partly cloudy skies today, a chance of thunderstorms in the West. High temperatures in the mid 80s to the low 90s right now, sunny and 76 in the Twin Cities. In Rochester, it's sunny and 74. It's 9:06. This is Minnesota Public Radio News.

SPEAKER: Programming is supported by the Shakopee Mdewakanton Sioux community, who have given 254 defibrillators to charitable organizations, schools, and others. To request an AED for your organization, you can go to shakopeedakota.org.

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KERI MILLER: This is Midmorning on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Keri Miller. This hour, braving one bear of a market.

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The Wall Street Journal headline of May 9th said it all, or did it? It read the curse of the class of 2009. And then there was chapter and verse about the toughest job market in 25 years. Young would be workers competing tooth and nail with baby boomers and college grads who are scrambling to get even the low-wage jobs. But there are ways to break the curse. And we've got just the guest to tell you how.

But your experiences will be valuable in the conversation as well. So if you've just graduated or you've been in the job market for only a couple of years, tell us about your job search, what has worked, what hasn't. And if you're an employer and you're hiring, tell us what you're looking for. And I'd like to hear your impressions of the recent college grads who are walking through your door for an interview.

So if you've just graduated from college or you've been out in the job market for just a couple of years, I'd like to hear about your job search. Tell us what's working for you, what isn't working for you. And if you're listening this morning and you're an employer and you're hiring, we'd like to know what you're looking for. And I'd like to know your impressions of the college grads that are coming through the door, 800-242-2828.

If you're in the metro area, 651-227-6000. If you're online this morning, go to mprnewsq.org and click on Send Us a Question. The number again, 800-242-2828, 651-227-6000, online, mprnewsq.org. Click on Send Us a Question.

To our guests this hour, Lindsey Pollak is a career columnist and a corporate trainer. She's the author of Getting from College to Career, 90 Things to do Before You Join the Real World. And she's with us from New York. Hi, Lindsey. I assume it's the real world in New York City this morning.

LINDSEY POLLAK: It is the real world. It seems to be monsoon season here, but we're getting by.

KERI MILLER: Oh my.

LINDSEY POLLAK: Nice to be with you.

KERI MILLER: Good to have you here. And Steven Rothberg is with us this morning. He's founder and president of collegerecruiter.com, and he's with me in the studio. And Steve, good to have you here.

STEVEN ROTHBERG: Good to be with you again. Thank you, Kerri.

KERI MILLER: And I want to let our listeners know this show is part of a doubleheader on jobs today. At 10:00, we're going to talk about why everyone should have a plan B for their career. That includes Steve, that includes Lindsey. That includes me. So we're going to be talking about that at 10:00. Plan B's for your career. By the way, that is the question of the day. You will find it on the new and improved mprnewsq.org website. So we'd like you to go there and answer that question if you've got a minute.

So, Lindsey, here's an excerpt from that rather foreboding article in The Wall Street Journal that I quoted about the class of '09. "The bad news for this spring's college grads is that they're entering the toughest labor market in at least 25 years. The worst news, even those who land jobs, will suffer lower wages for a decade or more compared to those lucky enough to graduate in better times." Does that add up to a curse for the kids that are getting out in '09?

LINDSEY POLLAK: Boy, if I were a graduate right now, it's enough to make me crawl under the covers and never want to come out for the rest of my life.

KERI MILLER: I know.

LINDSEY POLLAK: [LAUGHS] Look, it's hard out there. You know, there's no denying that. And the reality is we're in a difficult situation. And I think that the challenge is it's hard to find a job out of college, you know, in any time. It's a really difficult transition. And, you know, my best advice to students is you can't let this get you down. Start wherever you can and, you know, get your career on track.

Because if you let this keep you back, I think it's an attitude issue. You can be held back with low wages for the rest of your life if you remain bitter about being the doomed class of '09. But you don't have to let this hold you back. There are things you can do.

KERI MILLER: So tell me what you mean when you say start wherever you can. What does that mean? Throw away the idea of the dream job?

LINDSEY POLLAK: I don't think you need to throw it away, but I think you need to realize that the path that you might have set out for yourself maybe when you started college and things were good may not be the path that you can take. So, for instance, there were a lot of kids who said, no matter what, I'm going to Wall Street, or no matter what, I'm going to start at a big four accounting firm or go to Hollywood or whatever it is that your plan was. And that used to be somewhat realistic because jobs were plentiful.

And the reality now is certain industries, you know, magazines, Wall Street, various fields are simply not hiring very many people. So you can still work there at some point in your career. It may just take a couple of years. And I think the reality is we're going back to quote the olden days when you had to pay some dues at the beginning. And a lot of students aren't really happy to hear that.

KERI MILLER: You know, Steven, I don't see anything wrong with that paying dues. I know it is tough out there. I don't want the college grads who are listening today to think we're not sympathetic about that. But the idea of paying your dues pays off later on in the career, doesn't it?

LINDSEY POLLAK: Frankly-- oh, sorry I was just asking, Steven. But, Lindsey, I'll come back to you in a second.

STEVEN ROTHBERG: Yeah, absolutely, Kerri. To me, there's a huge difference between paying dues when it's sort of for sadistic reasons, where you've got some employers saying, well, you're going to start in the mailroom because I started in the mailroom. And I want you to suffer because I suffered. To me, that's not a valid reason to have somebody pay their dues. But for somebody to say I'm going to invest in myself, just like I've gone through elementary school and middle school and high school and four years of college, maybe grad school, what's wrong with taking an internship for a year after you graduate from college in order to help jump start your career?

KERI MILLER: Are a lot of grads having to do that, Steven?

STEVEN ROTHBERG: They are. And, two years ago, it would have been the last thing that they thought that they would have had to do.

KERI MILLER: Are those internships paid, or are a lot of them doing this, donating their time, in essence to get the experience?

STEVEN ROTHBERG: You know, there aren't any reliable statistics on unpaid internships because they don't show up in payroll numbers. But I would say that there are a huge number of grads who are taking official or unofficial internships after graduation with a lot of people used to call externships and then also waiting tables or whatever to pay the bills. Hey, my parents did that. I don't know why this year's graduating class should feel that they shouldn't have to do.

KERI MILLER: I feel like I did that right out of college because I was making like $9 an hour and had to waitress to make ends meet. It wasn't really an internship, but, Lindsey, do you recommend this as well?

LINDSEY POLLAK: Yeah, I think Steven's right on. A lot of students are doing whatever they can and combining, quote, "real career-advancing work" like an internship or externship with money making. And that's the way that they're surviving. And I see this all the time. And I totally agree. I mean, one of my feelings is this could be the very best thing to ever happen to this generation who, you know, a lot of people criticize as entitled or wanting to be the CEO on their first day of work, learning some skills like persistence, customer service. You know, work ethic is not a bad thing.

And I had some really crummy grunt jobs at the beginning of my career, and I'm glad I did. It taught me a lot of lessons. And I think the students who realize that and see the value in it. And if you're going to be a barista, you know, at the coffee shop, be the best barista you can be and move up rather than bemoaning that fate. Those are going to be the kids who stand out and move up very quickly.

KERI MILLER: And, Steven, should you think to yourself, I'm really just marking time treading water here, or is there a different-- perhaps you're not in the job you necessarily wanted to be when you planned the college thing and post-college thing, but is there a way to approach it mentally, emotionally, to make it more valuable?

STEVEN ROTHBERG: Absolutely. One of Lindsey's examples was being a barista and developing your customer service skills. Every job that you have gives you transferable skills.

KERI MILLER: Is that really true?

STEVEN ROTHBERG: Absolutely. And if you graduate from college and you don't have any customer service skills and you want to be an accountant at an accounting firm, one of the things that may be holding you back from getting those-- one of the fewer jobs that are available is that maybe you don't have the client service experience. Well, if you can work part time, even volunteering in an accounting capacity, doing the taxes for your local nonprofit, and then also work as a barista to develop your customer service skills, now you've got a good sales message to give to that hiring manager the next time you go interview.

KERI MILLER: You really walk into the interview and say, I was a barista at Starbucks, and this makes me qualified to deal with your clients.

STEVEN ROTHBERG: Yeah, it's probably not the coffee making, although you'd certainly be popular in the office if they have a nice little coffee machine there. But it's more that, hey, I recognized that there was an area in that I lacked, and I went out and did something about it. I wasn't as good as I should have been at customer service. So I went to an area where, if you aren't absolutely incredible at customer service, you don't survive the day. And I was there for 14 months.

KERI MILLER: Yeah. Let's see what our listeners have to say here. If you're listening in this morning, we've got a double header on jobs today. At 10:00, we talk about having a plan B, what it is, how to build it. At 9:00, we're talking about if you are a college grad, there are people who think you are cursed because you've graduated in 2009 into a recession. You're competing with older people who have lost money in the stock market. So they're working a little longer. But our guests are telling you there are ways to break through this bear of a job market. So we're talking about that.

And, if you are in this situation, if you've just graduated or you've been in the job market for a couple of years, I'd really like to hear your experience with this. Or if you're an employer and you're listening this morning, tell me a bit about what you see in these college graduates. They're walking through your door for interviews. And if you're hiring, let's hear it, 800-242-2828, 651-227-6000, online for is mprnewsq.org and click on Send Us a Question. To Nicholas in Mendota Heights. Hi you're on Midmorning, and you're up first.

NICHOLAS: Hi, good morning.

KERI MILLER: Hi. What's your experience with this, Nicholas?

NICHOLAS: Well, I'm a recent college graduate that's like a month ago. And I have a job that I'll be starting soon.

KERI MILLER: Well, congrats.

NICHOLAS: Well, Thank you. Yeah, I'm one of the lucky few. But what I'd like to share, and this isn't good news for the class of 2009, but for the class of 2010 or '11, is the power of the internship, and even, as discussed earlier, the internship after college, I suppose. But I mean, with an internship, you know, it doesn't matter what your grades are, senior year. I didn't even have to do the job search thing. It was in my hands last summer, and I was able to-- you know, all I had to do was work hard and do what I was told last summer in my internship, and I have a job going forward.

KERI MILLER: So you worked at the company as an intern, then they turned around and offered you a job--

NICHOLAS: Yes.

KERI MILLER: --as you were getting ready to graduate.

NICHOLAS: Exactly. So I had an offer before I even started senior year.

KERI MILLER: Tell me the kind of field you're going into.

NICHOLAS: Well, I'm going into the financial management program with General Electric in their health care business in Milwaukee.

KERI MILLER: Great. Congratulations,

NICHOLAS: Thank you very much.

KERI MILLER: Lindsey, some thoughts about this.

LINDSEY POLLAK: Yeah, I think this is an increasing trend that companies, particularly large companies. I wasn't surprised to hear Nicholas say that it was a big company who did this. They're identifying talent very, very early. Some companies, believe it or not, as early as first semester, freshman year--

KERI MILLER: Really?

NICHOLAS: --on campuses, recruiting students as interns and basically building their pipeline so that they know and are confident in the talent. One concern I have is some companies do this with unpaid internships, and I'm concerned that this blocks out the kids who can't afford not to make money in their summer. So, you know, I would just hope that any kind of early identification program would include some sort of payment so that all students have a fair shot.

KERI MILLER: Lindsey, I'm surprised when you're saying that companies are still doing this thing, where they're identifying talent so early on because there are so many people out of work at the moment who have the experience and the talent. Why are they still, you know, looking on college campuses first or second semester?

LINDSEY POLLAK: Well, I'm thinking of companies like accounting firms, consulting businesses where they do have client work, even law firms. And they need those entry-level analyst associate programs to support their biggest client work, the people who are willing to work until midnight. They're certainly not recruiting at the levels that they were in the past. But I think a lot of companies got into trouble many years ago when they completely cut off their entry-level recruiting. The economy turned around and their competitors had all the good young talent.

So I think they're being cautious and at least identifying the talent, so that when they do need to ramp up, they have the people in mind who they want to recruit. Nobody wants to be caught off guard when things do turn around.

KERI MILLER: Steven, you're nodding about that. You're finding that as well?

STEVEN ROTHBERG: Yeah, I was actually just thinking, just before Lindsey said that the years ago phrase, was that, in the 2000, 2001 tech bubble, when the world kind of turned upside down in that sector, a lot of those organizations killed their internship programs. They stopped going-- they just even stopped going on campus, let alone stopped hiring. It's like they disappeared. And they still are struggling to regain that foothold, to reestablish the relationships with the professors and the career service office people. Trust is so important in that community. That if you--

KERI MILLER: You mean the word of mouth, the I can call this trusted professor and say, who's the best in the class?

NICHOLAS: Absolutely. If that Professor doesn't think that your organization is in it for the long haul, then he's going to take his star student, and he's going to send them across the street to your direct competitor.

KERI MILLER: Back to the phones. To Steve in Minneapolis. Hi, Steve.

STEVE: Yes, hi. I'm a recent college grad as well. Yes, and I just wanted to comment that my personal experience was that networking was key. Any alumni, any speaker that came to class, I'd get their business card, send them an email, maybe keep in touch with them. Just a short note every other month maybe.

KERI MILLER: Wow, really good.

STEVE: So that when the job search did come, there was a connection built. They'd go to bat for me. And, because of it, I got a job on Wall Street. A lot of my classmates are still looking.

KERI MILLER: You mean you're headed to Wall Street for a job soon, Steve?

STEVE: Yes.

KERI MILLER: Wow.

STEVE: I'll be starting in about two and a half weeks.

KERI MILLER: Congratulations. Because--

STEVE: Thank you.

KERI MILLER: --jobs tight there, I would think. Let me ask you this real quick, Steve. Did you use some of the social networking sites online to, you know, to hear about jobs and keep up contacts?

STEVE: I'm familiar with those. LinkedIn, for instance. But, for me, it was all just emails, phone calls. I had a list of maybe 20, 25 alumni that I'd make sure before-- maybe every other month I'd make sure I went through that list and sent a quick note. They like to hear. You know, they like to have a connection and mentor someone. And it works out for me because they can push my resume perhaps if they're in that position or a good advice.

KERI MILLER: Yeah. Good luck with the new career, Steve.

STEVE: Thank you.

KERI MILLER: Lindsey, he really sounds like he was on top of things with the notes and the contacts there and really staying in close touch.

LINDSEY POLLAK: I think that says it all. You know, I think Steve is very sophisticated and advanced for his group of students. I find a lot of students who are afraid of the word networking. They're not comfortable with it, or they feel that they don't know how. And the students who do understand how to do it, just as he described, I think are the ones with the jobs.

KERI MILLER: Tell me how you would actually define what it means to network for anybody out there who's saying, well, what do I really do.

LINDSEY POLLAK: Networking is about taking the people you know and the people they know and talking to them about your career prospects and what you want to do, and really leveraging the power of personal connections. Any company, any recruiter is more comfortable-- Steven used the word trust-- is more comfortable hiring somebody who comes with a personal recommendation. So if you tap into the network of people who know you or who know people who you trust, talk to them about what kind of career you're interested in and ask them for advice, and to put a good word in for you that works.

What I hear from a lot of students on campuses is, quote, "I don't want to use people, or why would they help me?" And I think when you understand that it's mutually beneficial and that there's value in it for the person recommending you, you end up like Steve with a great job.

KERI MILLER: Yeah. Steven, and I think about that, that there is this sense of, but I'm going to be asking them for a favor, and why are they going to do me a favor. How should you think about it?

STEVEN ROTHBERG: To me, that's not networking. Networking to me isn't about asking other people to do things for you. It's about asking other people what you can do for them.

KERI MILLER: So how does that go? Tell me how that sounds in a conversation.

STEVEN ROTHBERG: Paint your picture. You're contacting a friend of your mother's who has her own small business. Rather than calling her up and saying, hire me, give me a job, instead, call her up and say, you know, I just graduated. I've got some free time on my hands. I've been in your shop a whole lot of times, and you've always got this huge stack of bills sitting on your desk at the back. I'm an accounting major. How about if I come in every Saturday for a few hours, and I'll do your bookkeeping for you for free?

KERI MILLER: That's good. For free?

STEVEN ROTHBERG: For free. Yeah. Go in there. Because, if she likes you, if you're doing a good job, she may hire you. But, even if she doesn't have the need or the financial resources to, as a small business person, she knows people who does because she'll know through her network dozens, maybe even hundreds of people who will probably have that need today or tomorrow. And, if you do a good job for her, she's going to refer you.

KERI MILLER: Steven Rothberg is one of our guests this morning. He's the founder and president of collegerecruiter.com in the studio with me. And Lindsey Pollak joins us. She's a career columnist and a corporate trainer. And she's the author of Getting from College to Career, 90 Things. And there really are 90 things in the book to do before you join the real world. 800-242-2828. If you're getting a busy signal, hang on for a few minutes and call back.

I really do want to hear your experience with this, if you are a new grad or you've been out in the job market for a couple of years. If you're an employer and you're hiring, let's hear it. What kinds of things are you looking for from these new college grads that walk in the door? What are your impressions of them? And, hey, what kinds of jobs do you have open, too? 651-227-6000, 800-242-2828. And check out our new and improved website. You've got to see it to believe it, mprnewsq.org. Click on Send Us a Question. To Pat in Stillwater. Hi, Pat.

PAT: Hey, Kerri, Lindsey, Steve. I'm not currently hiring. I am an employer.

KERI MILLER: OK.

PAT: But I come across hundreds of resumes because of the name of our company, which is [INAUDIBLE]. We're a hotel and restaurant market strategist firm. And I'm amazed at the amount of kids. We can place them. If we get the resumes, we pass them on to many of our clients. But I'm amazed at how few of the kids that are graduating or have graduating have any experience in the fields or the degrees that they have got their degree in or that they're majoring in.

KERI MILLER: You mean even like summer jobs, internships, that kind of thing?

PAT: Yeah, in West-- I live in Western Wisconsin, of course, down to University of Wisconsin, Stout they have a tremendous-- you know, their Human Services program down there. Most of those kids are working as servers or roofers in the summertime, because they pay better money come-- Much like you did, Kerri. I know you got a background. You worked in restaurants and put yourself through. But they don't have experience in the field.

And if I can give any advice about that former student that called in, get some experience. I don't care if you have to do some free-- Go in and do some freebie work for the law firm if you're in law school in the summer months or even during the school year. Go in and sort files or whatever gets them that basic experience in the field that you're working in. And it opens the doors. And, as a former student, I think, had said he had worked in a field and here he is going to work on Wall Street. So anyway, I want to pass it on.

KERI MILLER: Pat, I appreciate that. It really tracks with what Steven Rothberg was telling us. Lindsey, weigh in on this. How do you get that important experience that stands out on a resume in summer time kind of work?

LINDSEY POLLAK: Well, I think the point that sometimes you have to do it for free is a bit challenging for students who do have to make money and may need to work full time during the summers, but I totally agree. And even if it's a week during spring break, even if it's a project during school, and a lot of universities are realizing that they need to offer these opportunities to do real-world projects during the academic year.

So I would say to students, if you know or even vaguely know what kind of career you'd like to go into, go through your network, as Steven mentioned, friends of your parents, that sort of thing. Talk to professors about local businesses that they might know who need some extra help. And you mentioned LinkedIn before. I do a lot of work with them. There's a tremendous opportunity on LinkedIn to connect with your school's alumni, which is a comfortable place, I think, for a lot of students to network. And a lot of alumni would be thrilled to host a student from their own Alma mater to come and do some work for them.

So it doesn't have to be a huge corporation, even small to medium-sized businesses where you have some sort of connection. And, in addition to the specifics of the career, simply being in an office and understanding the professional environment and learning how that works gives you a tremendous leg up in the interview process.

KERI MILLER: You know, Steven, I was thinking about, as Lindsey was talking about the alumni process, this is how quickly things have changed. When I got out of college, we sent letters. I was moving to Dallas, and we sent letters from everybody who had graduated from the college that I went to who was living in Dallas. It actually worked. Actually, it got my friend, who was a teacher, a job almost immediately. I mean, that there is something to that.

STEVEN ROTHBERG: There absolutely is. My wife did the same thing. She graduated from MBA school at Michigan, and she wanted to move back to Minneapolis. And she sent letters, went to Kinko's, got the real nice paper and put an actual stamp on the thing. And she got a bunch of interviews, and she was hired. And it worked out perfectly. Exactly the same thing applies today. I actually don't think I would send a letter because--

KERI MILLER: Not today, but--

STEVEN ROTHBERG: I don't even know if there really is a post office anymore.

LINDSEY POLLAK: Wait, I'm sorry. What's a letter?

STEVEN ROTHBERG: Yeah.

KERI MILLER: But get in contact, you're saying.

STEVEN ROTHBERG: But LinkedIn is phenomenal. You can send a regular email, and I think people will disregard those much more likely than if you contact them through LinkedIn. LinkedIn, for some reason, when you receive a direct contact on that, it's like getting a text message. just You have to look at it. There's a little bit of heroin in there or something.

KERI MILLER: Tell me how you regard the other social networking, the Facebook, some of the others that a lot of students are using in their social life. Is this a place that you can be making contacts for work?

STEVEN ROTHBERG: Yeah, absolutely. I'm a huge fan of the social networks. Recognize the dangers there because, if you're going to post a photo of yourself doing something naughty, that's not going to help your job prospects. So you definitely want to make sure that your digital footprint is clean, as clean as it can be.

KERI MILLER: Does that mean beware of what's on your Facebook page or something?

STEVEN ROTHBERG: Yeah, and also your friends. If your friends have photos of you at a party getting drunk, and they've tagged you, you want to get rid of those. So that when people do a search on your name that, if anything bad comes up, it's on page 12 of the search results, not the number three result where an employer is actually going to be likely to see it. But, you know, if you've got 2,000 friends in your Facebook circle, which a lot of students do, there's a pretty good 2,000 that maybe a hundred of those are going to be, let's call them adults. They're going to be staff, faculty at your school, parents, friends. Then you can go over to their page and see who they know and introduce yourself pretty easily.

KERI MILLER: Online here from Frank in Minneapolis. And we'll get to more online comments and questions in a second. He says, "The problem with paying dues for this year's graduates is that they've been charged so much for their education that many of them owe too much." That's a fair point, isn't it, Lindsey?

LINDSEY POLLAK: I'm very, very worried about the debt of this generation, and that's why I'm actually against too many unpaid internships, because I think it takes advantage of a generation that has a lot of student debt. Prices are very high. I think it's very interesting what's going on with the National Health Care debate and how that will affect students who are just graduating. But what I say to kids is, if you have to get a high-paying job, no matter what you need to do to pay back your loans, then that's your highest priority.

And you can't get yourself into trouble when you're young if you have to do that. And, frankly, the reality is, when I talk to community colleges or schools with a lot of students, with debt, they did find jobs because they had to.

KERI MILLER: And what are you saying? And that's OK?

LINDSEY POLLAK: They've been working all throughout school--

KERI MILLER: I see.

LINDSEY POLLAK: --because they had to. So they weren't sort of saving up until the very end.

KERI MILLER: Got it.

LINDSEY POLLAK: In my experience, most of them were aware of that reality. But a lot of the kids who didn't work through school maybe, you know, middle class or upper middle class and graduated assuming they'd get a great job because that's what had been sold to them for years in college are very, very worried right now. It's going to be a big problem. I think we're not hearing as much about it in the summer because it's the summer. I think in September, reality is going to hit, and I think it's going to be really scary. And I have a lot of sympathy for these kids.

KERI MILLER: Let me grab a call here, and then we'll go to news. To Molly in Saint Paul. Hi, Molly. Thanks for waiting.

MOLLY: Hi. I'm just calling to share my experiences as a recent college grad. I graduated from Michigan in 2007, and I moved home. I was an English major, so I hadn't really pragmatically viewed my education as something that would get me a job when I got out. It was more of a search to enhance my internal intellectual well-being.

KERI MILLER: Yes.

MOLLY: And I think a lot of kids at that time viewed their education that way, especially at Michigan. But then, you know, 2007, 2008, the economy slowly started to turn sour. And I thought about going to medical school always. So my parents, who are actually-- my dad's a doctor, my mom's a nurse practitioner. They worked in a nursing home when they were in college. And they said, why don't you do that?

So I worked in a nursing home for a good solid year. I ultimately decided I didn't want to go to medical school. So then I was faced with getting a job and, you know, having an English degree. That can be a difficult thing. And ultimately, I got a job at Veterans Affairs, very secure, nice government position, especially in these times. But I found that having that experience of working in the nursing home was very appealing to them.

KERI MILLER: And not how you-- Not the kind of-- not how you thought that job would figure into your future plans, but it ended up being pretty valuable.

MOLLY: Right. And I learned a lot of very valuable, humbling life lessons in that job, and I wouldn't have traded it for anything.

KERI MILLER: Molly, I thank you very much for the call. Appreciate it.

MOLLY: You're welcome.

KERI MILLER: Lindsey Pollak, Steven Rothberg are with us this morning. We're going to take a break for news. When we come back, continue our conversation. If you're listening in, you've just joined us. We're talking about why you do not have to be the cursed class of 2009. Yes, you're graduating into a recession. And yeah, it's a tough job market out there. But we have guests here this morning who are talking about some strategies. I'm asking you what your experience has been with this.

If you've just gotten out of college or you've been in the job search for a couple of years, tell us about it. If you're an employer and you're hiring, we'd like to hear about that as well. And I'd like to hear your impression of the resumes, the college grads that are coming through your door for interviews. 800-242-2828, 651-227-6000. We'll be back in just a minute with more calls and questions.

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PHIL PICARDI: From the Minnesota Public Radio newsroom. I'm Phil Picardi. Fans of Michael Jackson camped out through the night near the Jackson family home in California and near his star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. Around the world, people are mourning the loss of the music superstar whose death at the age of 50 yesterday came as he was preparing for a comeback.

In New York, Fans have been stopping at a makeshift memorial site outside of Harlem's Apollo Theater, where Jackson performed as a child. Iran's opposition leader facing increasing isolation, says he'll seek permits for future rallies that effectively ends Mir-Hossein Mousavi's role in street protests. Meantime, a leading cleric demanded in a nationally broadcast sermon today that leaders of the unrest be punished strongly and with cruelty.

The man who would replace South Carolina Governor Mark Sanford is if he resigned over his affair with the woman in Argentina says the governor should remain in office. Lieutenant Governor Andre Bauer says he will try to help Sanford through the remaining year and a half of his term. US House has set the stage for a vote on legislation to combal global warming and overhaul US energy policy. The House Rules Committee cleared the bill for floor action early today after working through most of the night. It's still uncertain whether House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has the votes to get the measure passed. Minnesota Congressman Collin Peterson, the chair of the House AG Committee, says he thinks the bill will pass.

One of the largest Hindu temples in the US is opening in Maple Grove. Three days of festivities kick off today at the temple, which was built by the Hindu Society of Minnesota. The 43,000 square foot temple sits on 20 acres of land. Partly cloudy skies today, a chance of showers and storms in the West. Highs in the mid 80s to low 90s. This is Minnesota Public Radio News.

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KERI MILLER: We're back on Midmorning on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Kerri Miller. And, if you're listening in this morning, we've got a double header on jobs. This hour, we're talking about, if you are a college grad and you have just gotten out of school, and you're facing this tough job market, we'd like to hear a bit about your experience. At 10:00, we're talking about plan B.

I'll let you in on a little secret here. A couple of weeks ago, one of our bosses here in the newsroom sat at a meeting and said, you know, everybody ought to know what their next job is going to be. Everybody ought to have a plan B. I thought that was great advice, worried a few of the people in the room. But we're talking about how you build a plan B and why you should build a plan B. I think one of our guests is going to say and plans C, D, and E are important, too. So we will talk about that at 10:00.

If you have a plan B, I hope you're going to join in because I really want to hear about how you went about putting it together. But it has inspired me to do the same. Back to our conversation this hour with our guest. Steven Rothberg is with us. He's founder and president of collegerecruiter.com. And Lindsey Pollak is with us, a career columnist and corporate trainer. And we are going to go back to the phones here because we have a number of calls waiting to get in on the discussion here. To Andy in Saint Cloud. Hi, Andy.

ANDY: Hi.

KERI MILLER: What's your experience with this, or what are you calling to say?

ANDY: Well, actually, I work in a career services office at Saint Cloud state, and we've been wondering the same question. You know, are there any employers out there hiring?

KERI MILLER: Oh, OK.

ANDY: So there are three big consortium job fairs in Minnesota. Each higher ed system has one, University of Minnesota, private colleges, state universities. So we surveyed the 280-some employers that were at those job fairs just two weeks ago. And 66 of them got back and said-- 44 or 45 said, now, we're done hiring. But most of them said they're planning on hiring again in the fall. But 66 came back and said, yeah, you know, we still have a position or two or three that we're still looking to fill.

KERI MILLER: Wow OK.

ANDY: So, you know, that's one of our messages. So we sent an email out to all of our recent grads and actually shared that with all the other career centers in Minnesota, that there are still employers out there looking to hire new college grads.

KERI MILLER: So, Andy, what would you do if you are a new college grad, and you'd like access to the names of some of those employers? How do you get it?

ANDY: Well, I guess one benefit of being a Saint Cloud State grad is, since we did the survey, we had the list of those 66 employers. And so we sent that out to all our recent grads.

KERI MILLER: Oh, you did?

ANDY: Actually, one thing that's still-- as of yesterday, the websites for those three college job fairs were still operational. They're still online. So even the job fairs were in February, the websites are still up with the list of those employers, and those websites include contact information.

KERI MILLER: Good to know. And you know what, Andy, I want to ask Steven and Lindsey about the idea of these job fairs, because we haven't talked about that. Steven, are they valuable?

STEVEN ROTHBERG: Yeah, absolutely. First of all, I'm so glad that somebody from a career service office called in because it is an area that provides so much value to students, and so few of them adequately use their service offices.

KERI MILLER: Why? Why is that?

STEVEN ROTHBERG: You know, I hear from students all the time that say, well, I went to my career service office, and they weren't of any help. And you scratch the surface, and it's like, well, what did you do. Well, I dropped in between classes, and they were really busy. And I never went back. It's like, well, duh, you've got to set an appointment up and actually, you know, be an adult, and you're going in for counseling.

Somebody's standing behind the counter helping 12 people is not going to be able to provide you with any kind of advice that's at all meaningful other than, please, set up an appointment at a time when I can help you. I'm trained to help you. I want to help you. You need me to help you.

KERI MILLER: Lindsey, do you agree with it? With what Steven is saying here about the students really don't take advantage of the value of these career counseling centers?

LINDSEY POLLAK: Oh my god, yes. I mean, I can't even-- you know, when you're out here in the, quote, "real world," as all of us are, the thought of having free services at your fingertips to help you find a job and advance your career, you know, it's a no-brainer. They're also almost always available to alumni. And the thing I would add on job fairs and on career services, I think Steven makes such a good point. It's so common that people go to a job fair. They drop their resume at 10 booths, and they're shocked they don't get a job. Or they go to career services. They stand there for five minutes, and they're shocked they didn't get a job.

That's the first step of many, many steps of following up, of looking in your network to see if anybody who knows anyone at that company. The days of mailing in a resume and getting a job are so over. You've got to go the extra mile and use that first meeting, first job fair, first listing on a website only is the first step to getting the job.

KERI MILLER: Steven, I think I interrupted. You were going to add something to that?

STEVEN ROTHBERG: Yeah, no problem. You were asking about the job fairs.

KERI MILLER: Yeah.

STEVEN ROTHBERG: I'm not a huge fan of job fairs simply because I think they're so misused. I think the concept is fabulous. The employers that I talk to that go to the job fairs, they're told by their bosses that they need to go, and most of them hate it. Surprisingly, a lot of corporate recruiters are major, major on the introvert scale. And so, for them to be at a job fair for a day or two, having to shake hands with hundreds of people is excruciating.

KERI MILLER: A, number one, why are companies hiring major introverts who don't like people for these kinds of recruiting jobs?

STEVEN ROTHBERG: Well, the old joke--

KERI MILLER: That's weird in and of itself.

STEVEN ROTHBERG: Yeah. The old joke is that human resources takes the human out of human resources.

KERI MILLER: I've experienced that myself. Yes.

STEVEN ROTHBERG: You know, a lot of corporate recruiters, as opposed to third-party recruiters-- and I think it was Pat that called in earlier. It sounds like he's more in the third-party side, a headhunter side. The corporate recruiters, their jobs are much more so on the paperwork side, where they're looking at resumes. And their jobs are more akin to accounting. So it's fine for them to be more on the introverted side.

But, you know, the other side of the equation at the job fair is the candidate. And just like Lindsey said, a lot of candidates will go, and they also find the process to be excruciating. You line up, and you're there with a ton of other people.

KERI MILLER: And how are you going to make an impression in 30 seconds, and all of that.

STEVEN ROTHBERG: It's like you're in a buffet line at Las Vegas. Do they really care about you? And Lindsey and I just saw each other in Vegas. Fortunately, we didn't, like, go for lunch at a buffet there or anything. But, you know, you're not a human being. You're much more like cattle being led to a slaughter. And it's just about the numbers. How many people did you see today? You know, efficiency is great, and I love efficiency. But there comes a point where you have to look at effectiveness.

One thing that I love about job fairs, for the few people on either side that I think do them properly, is that, on the candidate side, so many candidates say, if they will just give me a chance to talk to them, then I know I can explain to them why I was a barista at Starbucks. And it doesn't really-- I can't really communicate that well in a one-page resume. Well, that's what a job fair is all about. You've got two minutes. Go for it.

KERI MILLER: Lindsey, Steven was telling me, when he came into the studio, that you two had been in Vegas, and we were talking about the foreclosure.

LINDSEY POLLAK: Wait, clarify that? [LAUGHS]

KERI MILLER: Yeah together, a little getaway, you and Steven.

LINDSEY POLLAK: Steven and I [INAUDIBLE] in Vegas together.

KERI MILLER: Oh, yeah.

STEVEN ROTHBERG: There was no wedding chapel--

KERI MILLER: You know--

STEVEN ROTHBERG: --there.

KERI MILLER: --what stays in Vegas. OK? But what I was telling him that I was reading in a Businessweek piece that Phoenix-- now, this really surprised me, but that Phoenix turns out to be one of the good places for young college grads to go to get jobs. A, they say it's very, very cheap, and the foreclosure crisis has probably helped that along. But they also say there are a lot of large companies that have big branches there that are hiring now. What do you know about that?

LINDSEY POLLAK: Well, in some of those markets where there's a very low cost of living and a lot of jobs, sometimes you're talking about telemarketing jobs. So I would be cautious in looking at what kinds of jobs are available. You know, I'm certainly not sure if that's true of Phoenix, and hopefully someone will clarify that. But I think you want to look very carefully at what kind of jobs are available.

But the concept of relocating is very important for some people. I think there are two trends going on. One is kids moving back home and living with their parents to save money. The other is moving to cities that have jobs and also have a lower cost of living. So it's kind of going two different ways.

KERI MILLER: 651-227-6000 if you're listening in this morning. And we are talking about college graduates and the bear of a job market out there. If you've had some experience with that, we'd like to hear it. 800-242-2828. Hey, check out our new website as well, mprnewsq.org. You'll find on the main page there, there is a question of the day. We're asking you about your plan B. And I'll let you know a little later what people are saying about that. To Duncan in Saint Paul. Hi. Thanks very much for waiting. Your experience with this.

DUNCAN: Yeah, Thanks for taking my call.

KERI MILLER: Sure.

DUNCAN: I graduated last year with a BFA in acting, and I had some thoughts, you know, coming into-- or coming from a field that is always competitive sort of regardless of the economy.

KERI MILLER: Oh, yeah.

DUNCAN: You know, it took-- being out of school for a year, it took me, you know, about five auditions or so until I finally got into a theater I wanted to work at, the Children's Theatre in Minneapolis.

KERI MILLER: Good for you.

DUNCAN: Yeah. And so, you know, it's sort of interesting. And I think probably a lot of college grads could learn some things from reading, maybe acting audition books, but just about being memorable and being persistent, sort of what you were talking about as far as following up on things like job fairs.

KERI MILLER: Duncan, tell me what you did to be memorable in those five interviews.

DUNCAN: Yeah, sure. You know, I think a lot of it is personality and being personable. I mean, you can look great on paper and have all the qualifications in the world. But I think what really worked for me was a bit of humor and personality. I can't imagine that wouldn't pay off in other job fields as well.

KERI MILLER: You know, Lindsey, we haven't talked about the interview process. I'm really glad Duncan brought that up. So you get the cherished interview. How do you make the impression that stands out above the other 25 people that they're interviewing for the job, too?

LINDSEY POLLAK: Well, first of all, congratulations to Duncan. I was expecting him to talk about the waitering jobs that he was taking as a BFA graduate. In the interview, I think, my hunch is that actors are quite good because they prepare, and they practice for how they're going to handle that audition or, in this case, an interview. And I think a lot of students walk in and they feel like they'll wing it.

And the biggest complaint that I hear from recruiters is that a student walks in and doesn't know anything about the company that they're applying to. It's really important not just to say that I'm great or I have a good personality or I'm very experienced or I'm very passionate. You have to explain why you're a good fit for the company and the position you're applying to. And I think too many students don't do that extra step and know exactly what the company does and why they would be a good fit for the job.

KERI MILLER: Steven, that is probably the best advice, to do a little research. So you sound knowledgeable and you sound like this is not just one more widget maker in the long line that you're going to try to get work.

STEVEN ROTHBERG: Yeah, absolutely. And roleplay, you know, get your college roommate to sit down with you and have her pretend that she's the hiring manager, and that you're the interviewee and have them shred you. I mean, have them throw all the--

KERI MILLER: Like how?

STEVEN ROTHBERG: Well, all the nasty, stupid questions that the employers ask.

KERI MILLER: Like what are those nasty, stupid questions?

STEVEN ROTHBERG: The worst interview I was ever in was I walked in and there were like two psychologists and the hiring manager. And they started off by saying the first three minutes that, our workplace is very stressful, so we're going to put you through a stressful interview. And after like three minutes of them, the first question was, you're driving down a country road and there's a turtle in front of you and a rock on the other side and a car truck coming at you. And it's like--

KERI MILLER: Are you serious? Or are you making this up?

STEVEN ROTHBERG: I'm being totally serious. And it was a grad school interview. And I'm thinking, you know what, any employer that has to tell me in an initial 20-minute screening interview on campus that they have a very stressful workplace is not some place that I want to spend the rest of my life.

KERI MILLER: Look around, you got bigger problems then.

STEVEN ROTHBERG: I thanked them for their time after about 10 minutes and got up and left. And my best friend was in the room right next to me, and he did exactly the same thing.

KERI MILLER: Really? Really?

STEVEN ROTHBERG: And Lo and behold, that company didn't get the people they needed.

KERI MILLER: But the point being here, be prepared for as much as you can for whatever they throw at you in the interview.

STEVEN ROTHBERG: You bet. There are so many resources online, I mean, Lindsey's book, our website, tons of other ones. Go and Google interview questions. Even with the name of the employer or the industry that you're in if you're an engineer major, like an electrical engineer, Google sample interview questions, electrical engineer. And you're probably going to find 20,000 pages that have great, great example questions and answer them to yourself out loud with your roommate, with your brother or whatever. So that, when you do get asked that question, you're not fumbling around for it.

You know, as an employer, when I interview somebody, I want them to convince me in just a couple of minutes that, if I hire them, that they can do the work. That doesn't mean that they can get an A-plus on an exam, like they've done their whole work-- their whole, quote unquote, "work life." I want to know that they can do my work. And I don't pay them to do research projects or to write exams. I pay them to sell or do customer service.

KERI MILLER: Lindsey, what's the weirdest question ever thrown at you in an interview?

LINDSEY POLLAK: [LAUGHS] Well, first of all, I totally agree with Steven on all of that. I have a master's degree in women's studies, and the weirdest and worst question I ever got was I sat down and the person across from me who was a woman said, "A master's in women's studies. Why did you do that?" And it was for a job at a women's organization, ironically. But I think that the point--

KERI MILLER: No.

LINDSEY POLLAK: Oh, yeah. The point that you have to be prepared. I mean, you know they're going to ask you to describe yourself. You know they're going to ask you your biggest weakness. You know they're going to ask you why you want the job. You've got to be prepared for that. And when I prep students or when I read cover letters, my biggest pet peeve and the big red pen comes out, I want this job because I want to learn. I'm passionate about the industry. I'm really excited. It's not about you. It's about what you can contribute to the success of the employer. You've got to tell them what's in it for them by hiring you.

KERI MILLER: That's good. Online here from Ellie in Saint Paul. She says, "I've done two internships. I volunteered, I've networked. I've followed up on appointments and applications. How do I remain optimistic?" Lindsey, you're a perky kind of gal. Tell her how she keeps going with this. It sounds like she's doing a lot of things right.

LINDSEY POLLAK: It sounds like she's doing a lot of things right. And that's the challenge, you know. What do you do when you've done everything right? As you said, you're an A student or a Steven said you're an A student. And that's not that's not cutting it anymore. And it's very frustrating. I think there are a couple of things. One is I love the idea of job search support groups, talking to your friends who are doing it, not letting yourself feel isolated. Volunteering is a great way to stay active. So you're not sitting in your bedroom at your computer getting depressed.

But the second thing is, very practically, you cannot put all your eggs in one basket. And a lot of kids get really enthusiastic and passionate about one or two jobs or employers, and they let themselves get worked up. And if that job doesn't come through, they're sitting by the phone waiting for that call. You've got to cast a really wide net and expand your options, so that you're never counting on one or two opportunities to come through.

KERI MILLER: The volunteering really sounds like good advice, too, because you never know who you're going to meet at a volunteer situation.

LINDSEY POLLAK: That's actually advice from my mom. You know, she said, get out there and help other people. I think it goes back to Steven's point about networking and helping others first. She said, I know you're depressed about not having a job. I know it's frustrating. Go and work with some kids or volunteer in a hospital. Volunteer organizations always need work. It makes you feel good about helping.

As you said, you never know who you're going to meet. And you'll probably get some good experience you can put on your resume that shows that you weren't just sitting at home job hunting, you were contributing.

KERI MILLER: To Jennifer in Minneapolis. Hi, Jennifer. Thanks for hanging on.

JENNIFER: Yeah, Hi.

KERI MILLER: Hi.

JENNIFER: I just graduated from nursing school this May. And all through nursing school, we were told you will have a job when you graduate. And we had this great sense of optimism. And then, all of a sudden this year, even nursing jobs were very scarce.

KERI MILLER: Yeah.

JENNIFER: And so, I guess, rather than look for a job right out of college, I decided to go to grad school for something I was really passionate about. And, by doing that, deferring my student loans, of course, and I was lucky enough to get an internship, a student worker position at the Minnesota Department of Health.

KERI MILLER: Ah, good. So you'll have that experience, you'll have your graduate degree. And you've delayed a little bit having to look for work in this economy. That's good.

JENNIFER: Yeah.

KERI MILLER: Grad school. Steven, we've gotten a lot of questions online here as well about grad school. Do you do it?

STEVEN ROTHBERG: Double-edged sword. It allows you to do exactly what Jennifer is saying, defer your student loans. You don't have to worry about paying them back. You can stay out of the job market until it becomes a good job market. And, when you get into it, you're in the field that you want to get into. That's all great. I'm a Gen Xer. To me, that's a baby Boomer Gen X strategy that has a tremendous amount of upside. For Gen Y, it's like, congratulations. You just graduated with an additional $50,000 in debt.

KERI MILLER: Oh, geez.

STEVEN ROTHBERG: So the double-edged sword is that, if you go to grad school and you come out a year, two years, three years later, your problems are compounded. You might have some really good solutions. You might get a much better job, but you're going to be much further in debt than you already are. The debt that this generation has is just absolutely mind boggling.

KERI MILLER: Let me squeeze Shauna in Oakdale here. Hi, Shauna. Thanks for waiting.

SHAUNA: Hi yes. I just wanted to give some encouragement for those people that have the kind of so-called non-related jobs to what they're going to be graduating with. I just graduated from law school last year, and I worked at Menards for eight years in the millwork department. And, although it's seemingly unrelated to law, it has actually helped me [INAUDIBLE]

KERI MILLER: Has it?

SHAUNA: Yeah. Oh, it's helped me get a ton of different things. First of all, being at one job for eight years and, you know, it was a well-paying job at the time, not necessarily for what I'm in now, but also, the employers figure you're going to stay there. Also, if you can handle that kind of a job for that long, that you can handle pretty much anything.

KERI MILLER: Steven, what do you make of that?

STEVEN ROTHBERG: She's absolutely right.

KERI MILLER: Millwork. I'm impressed. Wow, Shauna.

STEVEN ROTHBERG: Last fall, I was hiring a couple of salespeople, and one of the resumes that I looked at that looked great, until I started to look at all the different jobs this person had had. In over 20 years, they'd never been in a job for longer than about a year and a half. And it's like, you know, if I hire this person, they're going to be with me for a year, year and a half, and it takes about six months for somebody to really become productive. So by the time that person is productive, they're gone.

KERI MILLER: Lindsey had like, I don't know, 25 jobs or something, Lindsey?

LINDSEY POLLAK: Me?

KERI MILLER: Yeah.

LINDSEY POLLAK: More like eight. But I guess over a six-year period, that's probably a lot.

KERI MILLER: I was exaggerating, but you take my point.

LINDSEY POLLAK: Yeah, I'm a Gen Xer as well. Well, I think that was a big sign, like you are an entrepreneur, whether you know it or not, in my career path, and I've been doing that for seven years. So I guess that kind of worked. I think we're seeing this more and more with the Gen Y's, that there's no reason for them to stay in a job for more than a year or two because they know, in a lot of cases, where they don't have confidence that an employer is going to keep them on.

I know, Steven, you know, is a terrific employer. But when you see companies laying people off left and right, I understand that feeling of I want to get out before they let me go. And I think to the idea that Shauna said of the millwork, I love that. I mean, there's a reason why companies like Walgreens, like UPS, you cannot rise up the ranks unless you've driven a truck for UPS or worked behind the pharmacy counter at a Walgreens. There's tremendous value in dealing with people day to day and doing hard work and using that as a basis to move up. So I think students who have that, especially now, have a really nice advantage.

KERI MILLER: Steven, here's some specific advice here from David in Minneapolis seeking it. Says, "I'll be graduating soon with a master's degree in engineering." Boy, you would think there would be jobs out there for that. He says, "The sizable network I had dried up with hiring freezes." Now, he's got probably the education that he needs for this. What do you do in a situation like that?

STEVEN ROTHBERG: Well, I'm not sure why he would think his network has dried up just because those people aren't hiring. Maybe he's using his network like a lot of people refer to their network. You know, hire me, hire me, hire me. And when those people are hiring, they're going to be getting back to you. And now that they're not hiring, they're not getting back.

So I would encourage him, if he's not already doing it, to think about contacting those people in a sense of David should try to be giving away a lot of nickels. When you give away a lot of nickels, they tend to come back as dollars. And my guess is that he's going to those people and asking for dollars without first offering them a nickel.

KERI MILLER: I hope he heard the earlier part of the conversation here, where we talked about how to network without just asking for a job. David, if you didn't, you'll be able to find it in the archives later on. Steven, Lindsey, great to talk to you both, as always. Thank you so much for the good advice.

STEVEN ROTHBERG: Thank you.

LINDSEY POLLAK: Thank you very much.

KERI MILLER: Lindsey, thanks. Lindsey Pollak is a career columnist. She's a corporate trainer. She's also the author of Getting from College to Career, 90 Things to Do Before You Join the Real World. And Steven Rothberg, founder and president of collegerecruiter.com, and he was with me here in the studio. Coming up at 10 o'clock, we talk about plan B. Do you have one? Why not? If not, do you think your job is so secure you don't need one? I think after you listen to this show, you might think again. That's coming up at 10:00.

SPEAKER: Each weekday, Minnesota Public Radio News invites you to join the conversation on mprnewsq.org. Today's question, if you've lost your job or you're worried about it, what's your plan B? Share your answer. Go to mprnewsq.org.

KERI MILLER: And here are a couple of responses that we've gotten. "My wife and I have some cash in the bank, not as much as we'd like. And, as a web developer and nurse, we both have skills that are in demand. Our plan is to find another job if we have to. What else could we do?" We'll answer that question, Nick, a little later at 10 o'clock. I hope you'll listen in for that.