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BRANDT WILLIAMS: We're four Black men in a rented minivan driving around Minneapolis in Saint Paul. D. Eric Harmon teaches English at a local community college. He has also been a freelance reporter for local Black newspapers. Ed Nunn is a salesman for a large pharmaceutical company. His wife will be giving birth to their second daughter any day now. The Reverend Devin Miller is a social activist in Saint Paul. He works with Black youth and police officers on a daily basis.

We're driving while Black, and we're talking about what that means. All the men say they've experienced racial profiling in one form or another. We drive down a busy street in North Minneapolis, and Eric remembers an experience he had here a few years ago.

D. ERIC HARMON: I saw a cop come on Emerson. And I looked at my rear view mirror and saw it was a police officer. I checked my speedometer immediately. I was doing 30. OK, I'm cool. My license is fine. I don't have any warrants. The insurance is cool. Everything's hunky-dory. I shouldn't have any problems. Well, they got behind me. That's that close tailgating, following you.

You know that it-- you feel like you're some-- they're scanning you. You're like, oh, Lord, what are they trying to find out? And she pulled me over. It was a female officer. I'm like, well, what?

BRANDT WILLIAMS: Eric says he thinks this was an example of racial profiling. He says when he drives, he always makes sure his blinkers, headlights, and taillights are working. He says he doesn't want to give police officers an excuse for pulling him over. This time, the officer said he was speeding.

Ed Nunn says he's experienced similar situations. He says, while driving in Georgia, he was once pulled over for driving too close to the curb. He moved to the Twin Cities from Illinois a few months ago. He says he's been pulled over once for speeding since he moved here.

He says he doesn't think it was racially motivated. But Ed says, a couple times, police have followed him for brief periods. Ed drives an $80,000 Mercedes Benz. So I ask him why anyone should care that he gets closely scrutinized by police.

ED NUNN: Because it doesn't matter. And I've worked hard to get to a point where I am now. And that's why I don't deserve that kind of treatment. I work hard. Anyone that works hard, whether they are rich, poor, whatever, it's irrelevant. No matter what you're doing, as long as you're not breaking the law, you shouldn't have to be subjected to that type of harassment. That's why it's important.

D. ERIC HARMON: It should also be a concern because it's not right. And when something's not right, everybody should say, well, that's not right. I don't want to be pulled over for anything other than the fact that I might be committing a crime.

DEVIN MILLER: But that's the problem, though, the fact that you might be committing a crime. But why do they suspect you might be committing a crime?

D. ERIC HARMON: Right. Because of your skin color. That's not a probable cause. Oh, he's driving? He's Black? Probably, he's doing something wrong. Let's pull him over. Let's check him out.

BRANDT WILLIAMS: The three men say their experiences are shared by African-Americans around the country. They say white America doesn't see the side of law enforcement they see. Eric Harmon and Devin Miller.

D. ERIC HARMON: When you bring this thing up to white America, they think you're tripping or you're paranoid, you're whining, you're just delusional, that this is you making excuses.

DEVIN MILLER: We're past that.

D. ERIC HARMON: Yeah.

DEVIN MILLER: (IMITATING WHITE PERSON) That was back in the '60s. That doesn't go on anymore.

D. ERIC HARMON: After '65, everything was hunky-dory, man.

DEVIN MILLER: Right.

BRANDT WILLIAMS: Devin says there's a large perception gap between Black and white Americans that goes beyond the subject of racial profiling. He says Black and white Americans have generally responded differently to the terrorist attacks of September 11th.

DEVIN MILLER: The whole issue of 9/11-- and this is not popular either. I'm sick of it. Yes, 5,000-plus people died. I'm sorry. But you are raising millions upon billions of dollars for folks who lost their families and things like that. What did you do for my family when we lost folks during the '60s when you were sicking dogs on us and putting water on us because we wanted to sit at a lunch counter?

BRANDT WILLIAMS: Ed and Eric also say they've been unmoved by all the flag waving that goes on these days. However, Ed says, regardless of America's problems with race, African-Americans should jump on the unity bandwagon. Eric says the calls for unity are hypocritical.

ED NUNN: But as far as being united, I believe that. I'm not saying, yeah--

D. ERIC HARMON: No, no, no, no. See this is what I mean by, that's crazy.

ED NUNN: OK.

D. ERIC HARMON: This country has never been united. OK? This has been-- I mean, you got to go back to history. When the country was started--

DEVIN MILLER: It had to be united in certain terms, though.

D. ERIC HARMON: Well, it was united behind making sure that we were 3/5 of a human being, according to the Constitution.

ED NUNN: I'm talking about being united--

BRANDT WILLIAMS: The minivan creeps along with the traffic on University Avenue in Saint Paul, and Eric and Ed's debate grows more spirited.

D. ERIC HARMON: If you look at the media, you look at what they're reporting on, this is still seen as a white country and a white person's problem in terms of-- when they say, "us," the United States, they're talking about them. It's code word for them. It's not us. Oh, yeah, they'll sprinkle a Black person or a Hispanic or an Asian in every once in a while. But we know that white supremacy says it is about them.

ED NUNN: All right. So, Eric, something that happens to them, is it not going to happen to us?

BRANDT WILLIAMS: There is a saying in the Black community, "When America catches a cold, Black America catches pneumonia." The guys in the van say they fear that America's war on terrorism could have the same negative impact on African-Americans as the war on drugs. Devin Miller.

DEVIN MILLER: So it's not going to be driving while Black. It's going to be driving while Black, Brown, fair complected. I mean, if you hang with people of Muslim descent, you are a target. If you have friends that are from Arab countries or whatever, you better be careful.

I mean, everybody's going to be in a heightened state of paranoia, because now you don't know who you can have as friends. You don't know if your friend, who's name is Abdul, you don't know if he's connected. And if he's connected, you don't know if he's connected.

D. ERIC HARMON: I'll tell you what. Brothers who got down in the '60s when the-- they better change their name back.

DEVIN MILLER: They changed their name back to Mark.

BRANDT WILLIAMS: Earlier in the discussion, Ed said African-Americans use humor to cope with racism. He said humor helps the pain roll off, like water rolls off a duck's behind. Being perceived as a thief by store security isn't funny, but Ed got a laugh when he described how he tries to avoid being stereotyped when he goes shopping.

ED NUNN: When I go shopping now, I pull my $80,000 car up in front.

D. ERIC HARMON: [LAUGHS]

ED NUNN: I pull up in front. And I step out G'd. I step out-- I want to be so clean they might think this brother's overspending. He's spending money. He ain't come to steal nothing. He's going to spend some money. Because you're right. I don't want people looking over their shoulder, over my shoulder, trying to figure out if I'm stealing something.

BRANDT WILLIAMS: The guys laugh because they can relate, maybe not with the expensive car, but they say that doesn't matter. They say it doesn't matter what kind of job you have or what kind of clothes you wear. They say all African-Americans are potential targets for racial profiling, and they don't know when that will change. I'm Brandt Williams, Minnesota Public Radio.