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RACHEL REABE: Good afternoon and welcome to our special main street broadcast from Bemidji and the Minnesota Public Radio studios of KNBJ KCRB. I'm Rachel Reabe.

With almost a million students enrolled in grades kindergarten through 12, Minnesota schools are experiencing the highest enrollment in 20 years. At the same time, record numbers of teachers are retiring. It's been a challenging year for school districts trying to fill their classrooms with qualified teachers, and the problem is not going to go away. The Clinton administration warns that almost 2.5 million teachers will be needed in the next 10 years.

We'll be talking about Minnesota teachers supply and demand this hour with our guests, Dave Larkin, who is the Dean of Professional Studies at Bemidji State University, oversees the education department, and the superintendent of the Bemidji Public Schools, Rollie Morud. Joining us by phone from a conference in Racine, Wisconsin, is Joe Nathan, the director of the Center for School Change at the Humphrey Institute.

Good afternoon, gentlemen. Welcome to Main Street. Our phone lines are open for your questions and comments. Listeners, you can call us this afternoon at 1-800-537-5252. The number again, 1-800-537-5252. Dr. Morud, how difficult was it to find teachers this year for the Bemidji Public Schools?

ROLLIE MORUD: Well, it was a real challenge. We've hired nearly 47 teachers this year, and that's quite a few. Last year, we hired 40. And prior to that, we were averaging about 25 teachers a year. So it has really accelerated quite a bit. We started very early. We were very aggressive this year in going to career fairs, and then also just getting our listings out on the web and the different placement services, but much more aggressive this year than we were a few years ago.

RACHEL REABE: Is this something new for school districts? I remember the days where you got to sift through the boxes of applications, and you really had your pick.

ROLLIE MORUD: Well, in some areas, we still do that. For example, elementary ed, there's still an awful lot of applicants, but we're really returning back to the era of the '60s. And it was a very short market at that time. And it was not a hiring market. It was a supply issue. It was very short. So it's kind of new and yet, it's a cycle that we're going back through again, but it's very challenging.

RACHEL REABE: So classes have-- this is your second week of classes. You still have two openings you're trying to fill.

ROLLIE MORUD: That's correct. Yeah, we're having a very difficult time. We have an EBD position that's open. And then we have a deaf education position that isn't filled yet.

RACHEL REABE: So what happens when you can't fill the jobs? What happens to those students?

ROLLIE MORUD: Well, we use substitutes. We use long-term substitutes situations. We'll also bring in licensed people that maybe are licensed at a lower level and try to utilize-- bring in aides to stretch our staff a little bit further and let them reach as far as they can.

RACHEL REABE: It's not a good situation.

ROLLIE MORUD: No. We're not very happy about it, but we have to do what we have to do too.

RACHEL REABE: Joe Nathan, are most districts in Minnesota in the same shape?

JOE NATHAN: Rachel, thanks for the question. Many districts in Minnesota are in a very similar shape in three or four basic areas in the area of special education, which the superintendent has just spoken to. He refers to emotionally disturbed-- teachers who work with emotionally disturbed with behavior problem kids. That's one area where there is a shortage. And not apparently a shortage necessarily in the number of people who are being prepared, but a lot of people are moving out of teaching special Ed once they have a job.

They teach it for a couple of years, and then they get frustrated, and they move into another area of teaching. So we've got a particular problem in special Ed. Many districts are also reporting shortages in Math and Science. And many districts are seeing a real shortage of people of color. And this is a statewide issue.

In our report, we pointed out that, for example, some schools in Southwestern Minnesota have 25% Hispanic kids and literally no teachers who are Hispanic. I'm certainly not saying that only Hispanic teacher can teach Hispanic students or only an African-American teacher can teach African-American kids, but I think it's very important for White kids, as well as African-American and Hispanic kids, to see different kinds of folks in positions of responsibility in schools. So, yes, we're seeing these kinds of shortages all over the state.

RACHEL REABE: Dave Larkin, is this something that can be addressed at the University level, the place that's training teachers? How do you get teachers to go or how do you get students to go into the areas where they're going to be needed when they graduate?

DAVE LARKIN: Well, that's really a hot topic. And the biggest problem that I see is we have most of the students that come to Bemidji State want to be elementary teachers. I mean, think about teaching elementary kids, what a sweetheart of a job. The students love you and all the stereotypes you want about elementary students and you work with them.

We know that we need teachers and technology education, which I would add to Joe's list, is a big area of shortage. The Math and the Science, the special Ed big areas continue to be real need areas, but it's difficult. I talk to students all the time. Just let me say another word about technology education. We had the person who coordinates our tech Ed program at Bemidji State, visit all of our first courses in education.

And he went to talk about the shortage in this area, the opportunities, the opportunities to earn more money in tech Ed than in other positions because they do exist out there. And after visiting about-- I think it was about 300 students who were in that first course to education, we determined that he did not convert one student to come to technology education. So we know what the needs are, and we're somewhat frustrated by it ourselves, but we have a lot of people that want to be elementary teachers. And frankly, I understand that.

RACHEL REABE: Our phone lines are open this afternoon. The number is 1-800-537-5252. We have John Fredrickson on the phone with us. He is the superintendent at International Falls. What's it like in your district this year, sir?

JOHN FREDRICKSON: We're facing the same challenges that Bemidji had. We had several hires this year and two hires in elementary education. We had well over 100 applicants. And I don't know how many. People had just simply send resumes and stuff. And other areas such as Math or Speech or Music or English, Spanish, Technology, whatever, we had one or two or maybe three applicants that by the time you had the closing, you'd call them up, and they already had other jobs elsewhere.

It's particularly difficult at the secondary level, which are great teaching activities, but we don't seem to see the marketing that's going on. And for elementary Ed, we're still seeing marketing coming out of the colleges saying get an elementary degree, and we're flooded with elementary teachers. We have 102 for two applicants, and a-- that would-- we could more than double the number of teachers we already have in elementary.

RACHEL REABE: So in your opinion, sir, should the university and the colleges say, sorry, we're not letting people into the elementary education program, because there aren't the jobs out there for them, instead, we are wide open in these areas if you would like to come to school here? Is that the university's role?

JOHN FREDRICKSON: I think the university has a major role in that area. I think they have a responsibility to look at the marketplace. And if the goal of elementary education is to prepare someone to be a teacher, and they're not going to get a job in that area, to at least move their marketing a little bit and start really recruiting, maybe doing scholarships or maybe getting people to get two licenses, maybe elementary education as well as secondary, not just the ability to be able to teach into the middle school, but a true secondary preparation level.

RACHEL REABE: Dr. Lakin, how would you respond to that? Is that your job?

DAVE LARKIN: Well, that's a good question. One of the things we do, of course, is, like I said, bringing someone into the classes to talk about where the vacancies are.

RACHEL REABE: What more can you do than that?

DAVE LARKIN: Well, I don't know, frankly. John's point-- John and I have corresponded on this very topic and talked about it in the past. And I'm not quite sure I have the same view of the number of elementary teachers we're preparing for one thing. I'm not sure if we have a few extra teachers that that's a bad thing. It raises the standard of the applicants for positions and so on.

I would also say that any elementary teacher who wants to find a job, who graduates and earns a license and wants to teach in an elementary classroom, can do that. It's just a matter of are you willing to relocate. The teaching jobs are there. The problem we have, of course, is a lot of people want to stay in a given area. And I understand that. I like Bemidji. I want to stay here now. I'm at that point. So there are people who are willing to substitute, teach, or do part-time work or do whatever, hoping that they'll eventually get a job in Dr. Morud's district.

JOE NATHAN: Rachel, this is Joe Nathan. And our conversations and our research suggests that there are not just a handful of extra elementary teachers. There are 20,000 to 30,000 elementary teachers in Minnesota who don't have jobs, many of whom have called us, our center, after some of our research came out, with enormous frustration. And I'd like to suggest two possible strategies here.

First of all, the Minnesota Legislature heard this testimony and was very frustrated with some of the colleges of education in the state, which have continued to encourage people to go into elementary education. And I agree with the gentleman from Bemidji State that if folks want to relocate to California or to Florida, to New York city, they can get elementary school jobs. I guess one of the questions for Minnesota taxpayers and for the Minnesota legislature, should we continue to subsidize that, which is what we're really doing.

So here are a couple of things that are being tried in other parts of the country. And one of them that's actually being tried this fall here in Minnesota, and we're the first in the nation to do it. Some superintendents, like the superintendent from International Falls, superintendent from North Branch, have said, we're really frustrated with the situation. So we're going to train the people right in our school district.

And literally this fall in North Branch district, which is Twin Cities are about an hour south, 50 minutes South of North Branch, they have 35 people who are being trained right in the school for some of the needs that the North Branch district has. I know that Dr. Fredrickson has some interest in this.

And I've heard from superintendents in urban and rural-- rural and suburban areas all over the state, let's give the schools a chance to work with parent and community groups and as well as colleges of education to train the kinds of folks that they need. And let's talk to the youngsters in high school. And let's not just talk to the young people who think they're going to teaching, let's talk to the young people who are interested in technology, interested in Math and say, hey, there are some marvelous opportunities for you.

Secondly, it seems to me that we're going to have to really think hard about what are the incentives. I have a daughter who's 20, who's thinking about being a middle school Math teacher. She looks at what she would earn as a first year teacher in Math in Minnesota. And she looks at what she would earn if she went into private industry.

We may need very much to talk about scholarships. We may need to talk about loan forgiveness. And we may need to talk about-- and this will probably get some hearts fluttering, paying some people more. Right now, we pay older teachers more than younger teachers. Maybe we need to talk about paying people in particular areas where we want to keep them. Maybe we need to pay those people more than just the first year teachers.

RACHEL REABE: We have John Novak, a second year Science teacher in New Prague, on the phone with us. John, good afternoon. Welcome to Main Street.

JOHN NOVAK: Thank you very much.

RACHEL REABE: You teach Science.

JOHN NOVAK: Yes, I teach ninth grade Science. I teach Chemistry and Physics in the high school level here.

RACHEL REABE: So you're one of those teachers that we would classify as hot commodities. Did you have a lot of choices when you went out into the teaching market?

JOHN NOVAK: Yes, I did. I had at least five job offers. Before-- while deciding on New Prague, I had three other ones sitting on the table that I was deciding on.

RACHEL REABE: What's the problem, you think, John? Could it be remedied? Would it be a good idea if Joe Nathan-- as Joe Nathan, suggests, that they said, OK, New Prague teachers, you're all going to start at $25,000, but John Novak, because he'll teach ninth grade science, let's give him $27,000? Would that be an answer? Is that a solution?

JOHN NOVAK: I heard them. And when I was listening to them on the phone here, on the radio here, I kind of smiled at that because, as a Science staff, sometimes we've joked around by that, but I'm not sure how well that would fly with the other teachers. We're all trying to work together here. And you don't want to step on any feet like that.

On the same note, the entrance pay is subpar compared to some other professions. He talked about his daughter looking at the Math and what she could make going into teaching versus what she could make in the private industry. And there is a wide gap there. I just don't know how you're going to convince all these kids, even in the elementary schools and the students and the colleges, to go into teaching without addressing the issue of, OK, we've got you in teaching, what are the incentives of staying in the profession.

RACHEL REABE: Could you make more money if you were in the private sector? Are you convinced that you tomorrow could get a job in the private sector for more than you're making at New Prague?

JOHN NOVAK: I'm pretty sure I could. Like I said, I've always wanted to be a teacher, and that's what I searched. I never really changed my mind off of it. And it was only after college that I realized I could be making more elsewhere. But I'm pretty sure I could be getting a job elsewhere with my degree.

RACHEL REABE: But John, the three months off in the summer, which has always been just a huge carrot for teachers, does that not balance it out or still won't it make up for $20,000 disparity in salary?

JOHN NOVAK: And I have to be honest, I do enjoy those three months as a little time off. But most of the time, I'm continuing my education. I'm recharging for the next school year. I spend a lot of time here at the school. So I don't really see the three months as a vacation per se. But I've heard the arguments about that three months, and I don't know if three months is really worth the difference between the private industry and what we're paying our educators.

RACHEL REABE: For instance, some of the students that you graduated with, you have some friends that are working in the private sector, what are they making compared to what you're making?

JOHN NOVAK: Sometimes it's tough getting the salaries out there. I know I've got some Computer Science friends who are making $45,000, $50,000 starting. I got some people working like-- I think it's three, I have to check that later, that's making $20,000 more than what I am. So it's there.

JOE NATHAN: Rachel, this is Joe again. And we're hearing these stories all over the state, and there's nothing magic about the nine-month here. There are some charter public schools in Minnesota that are paying people more money and having them work an 11th month year. I think we need to get a lot more creative about the way that we pay salaries.

Now, the gentleman from New Prague is being very diplomatic and saying he doesn't want to ruffle feathers. And I completely understand as a first year teacher. But the reality is that there are some teachers in New Prague who are being paid $20,000 to $25,000 more than he's being paid. And that's on the basis of their advanced degrees or the years of experience. We pay some teachers substantially more than other teachers.

So I think we have to start to look right squarely at the issue and say, well, if we need certain teachers, aren't we willing to pay more for them. Another part of this is to attract people in mid-career in and this is a very large problem. I've talked with chemists from 3M, since it's already been mentioned. I've talked with people all over greater Minnesota who've worked for the DNR, for example, who decide maybe at age 35 or 40 that they want to come into teaching.

And in some districts, not all, but in some districts they're told, well, all right, even though you've worked for the DNR for 20 years or for-- a company for 20 years, you've been a chemist for 3M or whatever for 20 years, you're going to have to start at the first year salary structure, because we won't give you any credit in the salary structure for your years of experience. That's going to have to change. We're going to have to rethink some of these things.

RACHEL REABE: So the way the teaching industry works is unlike how most of the rest of the world operates, in your opinion?

JOE NATHAN: That's right.

RACHEL REABE: Although people are still struggling with the whole concept of merit pay. They can't get past that. So this is a long standing problem.

JOE NATHAN: Well, we do have merit pay. We decide that certain characteristics are worth paying $20,000 to $30,000 more for. We say if you've been around for a long time, you're going to get more pay. We say if you have advanced degrees, you're going to get more pay. That's examples of merit pay.

We also, by the way, say if you're going to be a football coach or you're going to be a basketball coach or you're going to be involved in the track team or other extracurricular activities, we'll give you another $3,000 to $5,000 for that. So I think we need to think about what are the priorities for schools. And one of them, it seems to me, is the superintendents have both said is to make sure that there are highly qualified people teaching all the kids.

RACHEL REABE: Dr. Morud, would it be easier for you to fill those two special education positions if you didn't have this certain salary that you could pay a starting teacher in Bemidji? If you had some room to maneuver, would it be much easier?

ROLLIE MORUD: In some fields, I think it probably would be. But in the area of EBD and those special service areas, there's a unique training that is necessary. You don't find a chemist that can do that naturally like, a chemist may-- for now, chemical may be able to step into some science and have some at least related experiences and be able to step into that, but you don't have that.

So with the EBD and the special Ed, they need some particular training that's unique to that. And so it's much more difficult than that. You just have to have a pool of candidates and it's getting very shallow. And the quality is always a concern. It has been for the 25 plus years that I've been in administration.

I think the other thing, Rachel, that's important to note here is that this isn't going away. We pulled-- we have about 420 teachers in the Bemidji system, 150-- 131 of them are 50 years or older. 150 are between the 40s and the 50s. Then it drops down to 90 teachers that are in their 30s. And I believe somewhere in the 40s or 50s that are in their 20s. And so for the next 20 years, we will see large classes of teachers retiring and they need to be filled those positions because the kids will be here.

RACHEL REABE: Bemidji State University graduated 250 teachers last spring. One of them was Diana Bratland, who was hired by the Bemidji Public Schools to teach special Ed and computers. We have Diana on the phone with us from the computer lab at JW Smith Elementary School in Bemidji. Good afternoon, Diana.

DIANA BRATLAND: Good afternoon.

RACHEL REABE: How hard was it for you to find a teaching job?

DIANA BRATLAND: For myself, I had a very easy time. I was very fortunate. I just put in one application, which was to Bemidji, and it was for a pool of about six or seven jobs. And then I placed that application in May and received an interview in July. And now I'm hired and working every day. So it was a very easy process.

RACHEL REABE: Did your friends have their pick of jobs?

DIANA BRATLAND: Several of my friends, they applied to many schools, and they had several job offers. They had several calls. I know one friend in particular, she had three jobs waiting on her and two were in Texas. One was right here in Bemidji, and she chose to use the one in Bemidji. So it's-- there were several jobs out there and many-- my friends seem to have an easy time at making choices between their selection of them, I guess.

RACHEL REABE: Now, you have an elementary education degree with an emphasis in Math and special Ed. Did you go in that direction, because you knew that's where the openings were, or did it just happen that you were very lucky that what you wanted to do is what's needed?

DIANA BRATLAND: For myself, it was just that's where my interest lied. And it happened to be that's where-- teachers were needed. But I know for several of my friends, they may have taken more Math classes or a Math emphasis because they just wanted to learn more in that area. And then they also were seemed to be steered in that direction by professors telling us that those were areas that would be good to pick up.

RACHEL REABE: So, Diana, they did come into your classrooms and say, this is where the jobs are?

DIANA BRATLAND: Yes. Definitely. In the beginning, in the intro classes, I remember on several occasions professors coming in and just suggesting that we should take courses in Science or in Math or in special Ed, and explaining why, explaining that there are shortages there and that people need to know more about that because that's where students are lacking.

DAVE LARKIN: Rachel, if I can jump in on this, too. One of the most important components correlating with success in college is advising and our advisors are very good at pointing out to students during advising sessions where the vacancies are. And they talk about that a lot. Diana, would you agree with that? Did you get some of that in your advising?

DIANA BRATLAND: Definitely, yeah. I've had two different advisors. And they were very good about clarifying things and helping me to see where my interests lie and how I could take two emphases that would kind of complemented each other and that would help me in the long run as well.

RACHEL REABE: Steve Pfleger was a 1998 graduate from Bemidji State University. He also is teaching in the Bemidji Public Schools. You're an elementary school teacher in your second year at Northern Elementary. Did you just say, I want to teach elementary and I don't want to teach foreign languages or industrial arts? Did you just think, I'm going to do this and take my chances, Steve?

STEVE PFLEGER: I knew what I wanted to teach when I went into BSU as a college student. I waited 10 years out of high school and I said, I want to teach elementary education, and that's all I want to teach. I didn't want to go into special Ed. I didn't want to go into Math.

I knew what I wanted to teach because I enjoy working with kids. I worked with kids in different capacities at a high school. And so I just focused on my elementary Ed, talked with my advisors. I picked up my reading emphasis, and that's very marketable, if you pick up a reading emphasis. And that's where I went.

RACHEL REABE: And did you have to scramble to find a job two years ago?

STEVE PFLEGER: I did. I had to do some scrambling. I applied-- I am in a restricted area, so I only applied within an hour of Bemidji because geographically, that's the-- I couldn't move with my family here in Bemidji. So I applied within-- I applied all around the district. And I was fortunate to get a job in the Bemidji school district.

RACHEL REABE: And what if you hadn't found a job, Steve? What if you-- after waiting 10 years and going back to college and getting your elementary education degree and getting out there and then being faced with the news, there are 20,000 elementary Ed teachers in front of you, then would you have begun to rethink it or would you just--

STEVE PFLEGER: My first year, I would have subbed in the Bemidji school district just to get into the district, to let them know I'm here, I'm serious, and that I want a job in this district. And after that, I would have probably looked in some other areas and maybe went back and picked up another emphasis in a different area.

RACHEL REABE: Did you have students that you graduated within elementary Ed that didn't get jobs?

STEVE PFLEGER: Yes, I did.

RACHEL REABE: So you were one of the lucky ones.

STEVE PFLEGER: Yes.

RACHEL REABE: You're listening to a special Main Street radio broadcast from Bemidji. I'm Rachel Reabe. We're talking about Minnesota's teaching force. My guest, Bemidji Superintendent of Schools, Rollie Morud, Dean of Professional Studies at Bemidji State University, Dave Larkin, and Joe Nathan, Director of the Center for School Change.

MPR's Main Street radio coverage of rural issues is supported by the Blandin Foundation, committed to strengthening communities through grant making, leadership training and convening. We invite you to visit the Main Street website. Go to mpr.org. You'll be able to hear this broadcast as well as other Main Street reports. The address, again, mpr.org. We'll be back with more of Main Street after news that look at whether.

SPEAKER 1: We can see this clearly in the fossil record. It's part of what multiregional evolution is about. Some of the features that characterize living people seem to be there for a long time, in some cases back to the earliest time of a habitation.

SPEAKER 2: What can DNA tell us about our origins, about our past as a species, our relation to other forms of life, our history? Join us this week as we probe the genetics of human evolution.

GRETA CUNNINGHAM: With news from Minnesota Public Radio, I'm Greta Cunningham. President Clinton says if the Indonesian authorities can't stop the violence in East Timor, they must allow international intervention. Clinton says the attacks on the United Nations compound in Dili are, in his words, simply unacceptable.

Demonstrators in Jakarta have soiled and burned American and Australian flags today to protest what they feel is little action from the two countries to stop the violence in East Timor. Some officials estimate as many as 7,000 people have died in the violence.

A federal judge has declared the public schools in Charlotte to be integrated. Judge Richard Potter's 115 page decision frees North Carolina's largest school district from a 30-year-old order. A lawyer representing Black families who filed the original suit says he'll appeal. Denver teachers will vote this evening on a proposed contract that includes a pilot program linking bonuses to student performance. About 10% of Denver's teachers would be involved in the two-year experiment.

In regional news, Governor Ventura says he was misled by Playboy magazine. On his weekly radio show today, Ventura said he agreed to do the interview on the premise that it would be published in the magazine's December issue, which he says is also it's Millennium edition. But Ventura says his interview will now appear in the November issue. Ventura says he doesn't remember the interview with Playboy.

US Senator Paul Wellstone will make an appearance at Sunday's Farm Aid 99 near Washington, DC. Wellstone will appear with country singer Willie Nelson. Other Farm Aid artists and farmers to discuss family farm issues. Since 1985, Farm Aid has given financial help to family farmers throughout rural America.

The forecast for the state of Minnesota today calls for sunny skies in the Southwest, cloudy skies in the Northeast this afternoon. High temperatures from 58 in the North to 78 in the South. At this hour, Duluth reports light rain in 53 degrees. International Falls, sunshine in 53. It's sunny in Saint Cloud in 65. Rochester reports sunshine in 64. And in the Twin cities, mostly sunny skies, a temperature of 67 degrees. That's a news update. I'm Greta Cunningham.

RACHEL REABE: Welcome back to this Main Street special on Minnesota teachers. With more students in the classroom and more teachers retiring, some school districts are working hard to fill the classrooms. I'm Rachel Reabe. We're broadcasting live from our MPR studios in Bemidji.

My guests this afternoon are Joe Nathan, Director of the Center for School Change at the Humphrey Institute and author of a recent report exploring Minnesota teachers supply and demand, Rollie Morud, Superintendent of Schools in Bemidji, and Dave Larkin, Dean of the Education Department at Bemidji State University. Our phone lines are open for your questions and comments. Call us this afternoon at 1-800-537-5252, 1-800-537-5252. We go now back to the phones. Kay is standing by in Saint Paul. Good afternoon, Kay.

KAY: Hi. I just-- I guess what I'm looking for here is some advice. I am currently in employed scientist. I have a PhD in chemical engineering and I'm very interested in teaching at the high school level, teaching either Science or Math. And I currently volunteer in local high schools, so I know it's something I would enjoy.

And I've contacted a couple of universities in the area to find out what I would need. And what I've decided or where I am right now is that I'm pretty much would have to quit my current job and go back to being a full-time student. And that's really not a possibility, as I have a family I need to support. And so I'm wondering what options I might have or opportunities.

RACHEL REABE: Joe Nathan, would you want to respond to that? Dave, why don't we have take that question, Bemidji State University?

DAVE LARKIN: I'll take that one. What we need is we need more programs for people just like you, programs that operate in the evening and on the weekends that allow you to continue your present career and move into the teaching field because you sound just exactly like the kind of person we need. And you're in a field where we really need you. And there are some programs like that in existence.

Right now, Bemidji State has one in cooperation with Metropolitan State University, and we're expanding that. And I might be able to help you on that one, as a matter of fact, if you want to call us up in terms of how we're expanding that. Right now, again, it's primarily elementary education.

And just a word on that. The reason it's easier to prepare elementary teachers is when you prepare Math teachers and English teachers and Science teachers, you need a lot more diverse expertise. But for the elementary program, we can deliver an off campus program in a more focused manner. So that's another reason why we have more off campus and alternative elementary Ed programs. But if you want to give me a call on that, I think we can talk about you.

RACHEL REABE: Kay, what's the motivation for switching careers? It certainly could not be financial.

KAY: No, actually, it's not. I just enjoy teaching. And I could teach at the University level, obviously, if that was something I would choose to do, but I'm not interested in the other parts of being a University professor, the research and the getting the grants and that kind of stuff, because my experience in graduate school with that-- that was the driving force and teaching kind of took a secondary role. And I'm really interested in the teaching part of it.

RACHEL REABE: Joe Nathan, are these the kind of people we should be looking for in Minnesota?

JOE NATHAN: Absolutely. And I want to say a quick thing about the financial issue. There are a lot of people who are not as paid as well as teachers. Now, I mean, no disrespect to teachers. I'm married to a teacher. I've been a public school teacher. But there are a lot of people working in youth service agencies who are paid substantially less than public school teachers.

And I'm not trying to say that teaching is the road to personal wealth, because it's clearly not. But there are many rewards. And I don't think we should always assume that people who are going from one profession to another are going to take a financial beating. But I think that kinds of people we've talked about are very much the kind of people we ought to be thinking, we ought to be trying to encourage.

RACHEL REABE: And Joe Nathan, who should be out recruiting these people, individual districts, the State Department of Education, the universities, who's going to do the recruiting?

JOE NATHAN: Well, Rachel, I think what's great that MPR is, again, doing this kind of thing. I think once again, MPR is presenting to the people of the state a real dilemma. I think it's going to have to be a number of people's responsibility. Bemidji State has described some things that they're trying to do.

I think it's important that school districts communicate clearly. I think we're going to need some possible policy changes at the state level to allow the kinds of flexibility that I referred to. I think we may need to have scholarship incentives. I think we may need to talk about paying teachers to work, at least some teachers to work year round.

There are, as I said, public schools in Minnesota that are-- in other states that are paying teachers a higher salary and having them work a longer year. So I think it's going to have to be partly the news media, partly individual districts, partly the state legislature, partly colleges and universities.

RACHEL REABE: Dr. Morud, have there been conversations when superintendents get together of lobbying the legislature, of trying to get some policy changes to help you out? Because just hiring the two teachers that you need for this school year, you're not going to be able to take much of a break with the next 5 and 10 years playing out already in front of you.

ROLLIE MORUD: No, we won't be able to at all. And we have had those discussions within the administrative ranks. Another critical shortage is substitutes. And we've been looking at that area. And the legislature has done some things in this past year. And maybe we'll look at some more in the future. But going through the substitute route is also a way to getting the job, getting known in the system, and fulfilling an important role.

That also may help and should-- could work into some programs, Dave, in terms of internships and experience and getting credit for the young lady that called earlier and talked about how would she reenter or enter a new profession with the foundation she has. So I think there are opportunities there, but we have to be creative and we got to think beyond the boundary.

RACHEL REABE: Lisa is on the phone in Grand Rapids. Good afternoon, Lisa. Welcome to Main Street.

LISA: Good afternoon.

RACHEL REABE: Go ahead with your question.

LISA: Yes. Well, actually, I'm in a very similar situation as your previous caller, so I don't think you're going to want to spend a lot of time on this. But I also am a person and I've talked with two of your guests, I believe, who's master's in engineering and have been working in industry for six years.

And I guess, I don't have a lot of sympathy for the shortage of Math and Science teachers when I call and say, this is what I'm interested in and there's really not a vehicle for people who want to be teaching. And so I just like to reiterate that, that there's really going to have to be some more flexibility and people looking at doing things a little different, especially when it's not even pay that's the issue because I would be talking about probably well over a 50% cut in pay.

RACHEL REABE: Lisa, what would it take for you? What kind of flexibility do you need in order to enter the teaching profession?

LISA: Well, I think what I would like to see is-- your other caller had the-- one of the things I am looking to pursue is some of the volunteer work to ensure that that's what I want. But like she was saying, not having-- everything I've ever pursued has been quit my job, go back to school for at least a year, and then you can look to see what's open.

And a lot of people who are in mid-career or who have worked somewhere don't have that flexibility that a college graduate is going to have of moving wherever they want to move. So you don't want to quit your job, go back to school, assuming you have education facilities in your area, and then you start job hunting. And that job may take you across the state, across the country within that area.

So I think what would be nice is, if this is truly so critical that we need Math or Science teachers, that you would have an opportunity to go in some type of if it's supervised format, or you have some kind of-- I know Teach for America does a crash program in the summer where they take qualified high school students and they teach them-- they give them some foundation to teach and then bring them in the classroom. And then during the time they're teaching, they get their certification.

JOE NATHAN: Rachel, this is Joe again, and I want to comment on a couple of things this person has just said. First of all, I'm delighted that you're considering teaching. Secondly, I'm delighted that you've mentioned Teach for America, which actually takes talented college graduates in key areas and does a summer program and then puts them under the supervision of a mentor teacher, and they get in to teach right away under the supervision of a mentor teacher.

The superintendent in Bemidji made an excellent point about the number of teachers who are going to retire. I just want to provide a statewide perspective here. We're going to have more than 20,000 teachers leaving the K through 12 system in the next decade.

We in Minnesota have prided ourselves on having an above average public education system by any objective standard we do. And people, I think, have tended to say, well, this teacher shortage issue is something that maybe it happens in California, Texas, Florida and New York, but it's not going to happen here. It not only can happen, it is happening here.

So I think we're going to have to do some things very different, very differently. We're going to have to provide opportunities for talented people who have some experience to move into the profession, move into the profession under the supervision of excellent teachers. Our survey showed that hundreds of superintendents and principals wanted to work more closely with colleges of education.

We've heard many colleges of education, they want to do that. We're going to have to do that, and we're going to have to do it quickly. Otherwise, what's going to happen is, as the superintendent of Bemidji said, we're going to have classes that have less than qualified people. It's not because the school districts aren't trying to deal with it, but we're going to have to make some major changes.

I want to make one last point. I don't know how the woman in Grand Rapids would feel about this, but I know that as I've checked with other states, there are states quite actively now providing scholarships to people such as this person, so that she doesn't have to come up with thousands of dollars to get retrained, that she has a scholarship from the state because she wants-- I think she wants to teach in Math or Science. And there are states that are actively doing that. And they're getting responses.

RACHEL REABE: We have Paul on the phone from Saint Paul. Good afternoon, Paul. Welcome to Main Street.

PAUL: Hello.

RACHEL REABE: Yes, go ahead.

PAUL: OK. This question is for the two gentlemen. As a licensed Minnesota teacher and an older one, why must this continue that older teachers are not being hired when we're so short of teachers?

RACHEL REABE: Dr. Morud, is that true? Do you discriminate because of age and experience? Is there a thought, as there are in some professions that, we'll get a younger one with less experience and pay less, or aren't you seeing a lot of applications from older teachers?

ROLLIE MORUD: No, we have a lot of applicants from that. In fact, the demographics that I shared with you earlier lets you know that we have a mature faculty and that we got that by taking a look at the pool of candidates and hiring the best that we can. We're conscious of dollars, but we're also conscious of quality. And we take a look at the best opportunity that the pool of candidates presents to us. The problem is now that often that pool is extremely shallow, and we don't have more than an option or two to even make a decision on.

RACHEL REABE: Paul, what's been your experience?

PAUL: Well, my experience has been that there's also a reverse discrimination here due to other factors, that there are obviously blatant, but in the language of education against hiring older teachers. And I'm not the only one. I know of at least a dozen other people that have tried for many years to get jobs and they're over 40 and they're just not getting it. They can go substitute, but they cannot get a permanent position.

RACHEL REABE: And so you are a licensed teacher who cannot find a job?

PAUL: That's right.

JOE NATHAN: In what area, Paul? I mean, what certification?

PAUL: Music education.

JOE NATHAN: I'm sorry?

PAUL: Music education and a humanities background.

RACHEL REABE: Joe Nathan, is that an area where there are shortages?

JOE NATHAN: Frankly, in a few places, yes. But generally, there are a number of people with art certification-- or sorry, music certification for the state. Our projections don't show that there's a significant shortage in that area.

RACHEL REABE: Let's go on to Gary, who's standing by in Roseville. Good afternoon, Gary. Welcome to Main Street.

GARY: Good afternoon. I'm going to bring a little bit different perspective. Well, a little bit like the last caller, but I'm in a kind of surplus area, I think. I'm secondary social studies licensed. And I've sent off about 30 or 40 applications in and around the Twin Cities, the big school districts and so forth. Half of them I have heard nothing from, nothing at all. I've had about a dozen interviews.

And what I've got going for me, I think, is a positive strike, is that-- I'm former military. I'm a 20 years Coast guard. I had two years of Peace Corps experience. I think that's a strike for me. But I also-- I think there's too many-- some of these school districts have 100 applications for one job in social studies. And possibly, yes, I'm over 50. So that may be kind of a strike against me. I'm diligently working now looking at Texas and Florida and North Carolina. And I think Texas will snap me up.

RACHEL REABE: Well, Gary, let me ask you, when you were in school getting your degree, did somebody come into your classroom and say, boy, social studies, secondary level, think about something else, or did you have no idea that it was going to be difficult to get a job?

GARY: No, it didn't. I kind of had an idea it'd be difficult to get a job. I knew that if I-- in fact, somebody asked one of my profs in class, they said, well, should I go for a special Ed? There's a lot of openings there. There still are. I mean, you can name your place.

And he said, no. If you don't want that, you wouldn't be happy teaching it, which is true. And I've subbed all last year in Mankato and I've done literally every subject special Ed, the whole works, all the grade levels. And you have to readjust your thinking if you're going to do special Ed or you're going to do whatever the case might be.

RACHEL REABE: And so you're willing to move to Texas?

GARY: Yes. I kind of want to stay here. But if I want a full-time job, I'm going to have to go to relocate.

RACHEL REABE: Dr. Morud, would you tell somebody like this, hang on, wait until next year and the year after because the openings are coming?

ROLLIE MORUD: I think the openings are coming. Absolutely, you should hang on. I think the idea of subbing is a way to get into a system. And it should be looked at very carefully as an option. I do think that you have to look at the aging or the maturing of the profession. And there are going to be plenty of openings there.

Social studies, yes, that's one of those where there are a lot of candidates, but quality is always something that's sought by employers. And this gentleman has a lot of experiences that I think would be a great asset and he should have a great opportunity. I mean, sometimes you got to hang around a little while before you can get in the door.

DAVE LARKIN: Gary, let me ask something, too. And like Dr. Morud, I think your life's experiences make you a very good candidate for a teaching job. They're just wonderful and they bring a breadth to your teaching that a younger person simply doesn't have. But are you willing to work with extracurricular activities?

GARY: Yes, that's part of the school system, I think.

DAVE LARKIN: Well, that's it. Be sure to communicate that very carefully because that's a very important component. And I think Rollie would agree with me.

ROLLIE MORUD: Yes, I am. We're looking for coaches all the time. I mean, we offer a comprehensive program and activities, whether they're speech or music or debate, football, basketball, cross-country. We're always looking for people with a lot of energy and a lot of interest in fulfilling those capacities as well.

GARY: Thank you for the advice. I do notice some openings say social studies with coaching, not all of them, but you know.

RACHEL REABE: So that's a good combination.

GARY: And I'm not licensed to coach, though. That's the--

DAVE LARKIN: But let me add that you don't need to worry about a coaching license. If you've got enthusiasm and a willingness to coach, you go out and communicate that, then it'll work in your favor.

RACHEL REABE: We go now to the phones Minneapolis, where Bill is standing by. Good afternoon, Bill.

BILL: Hi, good afternoon. I want to talk about the higher education component. And I have a couple of observations, and I'd like the people to respond accordingly, as to what their opinion is. I'm not a teacher. I happen to be married to one, but that's OK. No strikes against me, I guess.

As I see it, higher education as well as most university educations are really a business. And that's something that they never want to talk about and they need a consumer to survive. And that means they need a student body and a student population. And so when it comes to the education field, one of the last things a university or a college system does is send these people out into a student teaching situation.

One could argue rationally that they need some level of background before they enter that student teaching, but they fail to weed people out early in the process. And as a result, they pass along a lot of people that really aren't suited to teaching and maybe they need real classroom experience early on.

RACHEL REABE: Dr. Larkin, how would you respond to that?

BILL: The other thing that they do is--

RACHEL REABE: Bill, let's get a response to that first part of the question first. And student teaching is always the end of the college plum. At Bemidji, you're sort of changing the way you're doing student teaching in some ways, aren't you?

DAVE LARKIN: That's very much been changed. We have required practical experiences that begin with the very first course. You take an education and students have to go into the classroom the very first semester they're in the program. And then they're in public school classrooms every semester up until the time that they student teach. And I think Rollie would concur that he sees a lot of our students in and out of the doors of his school.

ROLLIE MORUD: Absolutely. We have interns full year. It was billed that way a while ago, but it has changed. And the hands-on opportunities for students in the university, they have expanded tremendously. Steve has been in our-- is in our school system, but he came through the BSU system. And Steve, tell him about your experience.

STEVE PFLEGER: My experience at BSU in the internship program, you have two options. You can student teach or you can do the internship program. The internship program is a one-year long internship program where you are working in a school district in a particular school with a mentor teacher.

RACHEL REABE: Was that your senior year or was that your junior year?

STEVE PFLEGER: That was my senior year. You are out in the classroom for one. You follow the public school system, the calendar. You follow that and you are in that classroom from beginning to end. You meet back on campus once a month to meet with your professors to further your education and the classes that you are taking concurrent with your internship program.

RACHEL REABE: Steve, how about the issue that Bill is bringing up, which is how about getting into the classroom your freshman year and your sophomore year? Because if it doesn't suit you or you end up don't like teaching, you've already invested an awful lot by the time you're a senior. Were you in the classroom prior to your senior year?

STEVE PFLEGER: I was in the classroom when I took my intro Ed 30310. I had to do a practicum in the school system at that time. And at that time, I knew I wanted to go into education. So yes, you are in the classroom right away when you enter into your education classes. It's a requirement.

JOE NATHAN: Excuse me, this is Joe. And we surveyed, as I mentioned earlier, principals and superintendents all over the state about this. And I'm delighted to hear that this gentleman and I'm delighted to hear that Bemidji State is moving ahead in these areas and has moved ahead in these areas.

Frankly, one of the strongest concerns that principals and superintendents all over Minnesota expressed was a feeling that many young graduates coming out of colleges of education know a good deal about their subject matter, but do not know how to work with students. And I'm glad to hear that folks at Bemidji State, I mean, very sincerely, are in classrooms in the freshman and sophomore years, as well as their junior and seniors. That's great.

One of the issues that was raised was, what do they do? Are they actually learning to teach, working with large groups of kids? And many, many superintendents, hundreds of superintendents and hundreds of principals said they have not been adequately prepared for what they are going to do once they get into the classroom, which is one of the reasons why a very large numbers of young people leave the profession before it's time to retire.

In the Midwest, three-quarters of the people who enter teaching leave before retirement. That's much higher than many other professions. So I think that the gentleman is making a point, and I think there's been a thoughtful response, important response from Bemidji State. But this is-- what Bemidji State is doing, is not necessarily what all the colleges of education do. And it's not Joe Nathan saying this. It's what the principals and superintendents all over Minnesota are saying.

RACHEL REABE: Let's talk for a minute about where you can get certification for. We've had so many callers on the line that we won't get to this afternoon saying, we'd be interested in going into teaching, but how do we go about it? Who do we contact? Where can we go through the process?

DAVE LARKIN: Well, my advice would first be to contact your local-- your closest-- geographically, closest college that has a college of education and contact somebody in the College of Ed there and pose that very question to them.

RACHEL REABE: How long do you think it would take? If we had somebody who was in the private sector, who had a college degree, but had never taken an education class, how many years might it take, Dave?

DAVE LARKIN: Well, I can tell you what it takes now. There's been a little bit of criticism that our program is pretty traditional and we're trying to change that. But basically, there is a very traditional component to teacher education. And right now, our teacher education program comprises a 33 semester hours of credits. So if you come in with no education, you're looking at 33 semester credits. That's a year.

RACHEL REABE: And has Bemidji State University and are some of the other colleges and universities in the Minsk system trying to figure out how to do this part-time night classes, teleconferencing? I mean, are you looking at the wide range of how you can deliver it to people like Lisa in Grand Rapids?

DAVE LARKIN: Sure. Well, you heard-- on a previous hour on this program today, you heard the president say we had 410 classes. I believe, it was off campus at 23 or 24 different sites. And certainly, some of those classes are education programs. That's probably our biggest off campus series of classes. And that's exactly what those classes are for.

JOE NATHAN: Rachel, this is Joe Nathan again from the Humphrey Institute. And I hope that a number of the people who are in mid-career will give us a call at the Humphrey Institute Center for School Change, because there are a lot of legislators who very interested in talking with you about your experiences, those of you who are in mid-career.

As has been mentioned earlier, there are a number of states that are taking people who have strong backgrounds in mid-career, in various technical fields or have distinguished record in a college or university, perhaps not in a college of education, but in Math or Science or whatever, and doing an intensive training program with master teachers over the summer, followed by supervision. The first year of teaching with some mentor master teachers. And there are some other states that are doing this.

So far, Minnesota has not decided to do that, but I think there's a lot of interest. And I'd love to chat with some of the people. So if they want to call the Center for School Change at the Humphrey Institute, we'd be real interested in listening to them.

RACHEL REABE: And Joe, do you think the legislature is the one that really needs to get on this issue?

JOE NATHAN: Rachel, I don't think-- as several people have said, I think it's an issue that school districts and colleges and universities, as well as the legislature are going to have to look at. There are some marvelous models around the country from which we can learn. But some of the changes are going to have to be in colleges and universities, some of them are going to be in school districts, and some of them are going to be state policies.

RACHEL REABE: Rollie Morud, Dave Larkin, and Joe Nathan, thanks for being with us today. This special Main Street radio broadcast is a production of Minnesota Public Radio. Our engineers are Cliff Bentley in Bemidji, Randy Johnson in Saint Paul. Our producer is Sarah Meyer, site producer Tom Robertson. Our executive producer is Mel Sommer. We'd like to thank Kristi Booth and the staff at KNBJ and KCRB for making this broadcast from Bemidji possible.

We invite you to visit the Main Street website at mpr.org. MPR's Main Street radio coverage of rural issues is supported by the Blandin Foundation, committed to strengthening communities through grant making, leadership training and convening. Minnesota Public Radio's Main Street team consists of 12 reporters at MPR bureaus across Minnesota. I'm Rachel Reabe.