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RACHEL REABE: MPR's Mainstreet Radio coverage of rural issues is supported by the Blandin Foundation, committed to strengthening communities through grant-making, leadership training, and convening.

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SPEAKER 1: Better.

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RACHEL REABE: Good morning. And welcome to a special Mainstreet Radio broadcast from the Southwestern Minnesota town of Lake Benton. I'm Rachel Reabe.

We've traveled to this rural, remote community of 700 people to talk about wind power, the fastest growing energy source in the world, like Benton modestly calls itself, the original wind power capital of the Midwest. In fact, the huge 20 story high wind turbines that loom over these prairies are the largest single wind farm project in the world.

My guests this morning are Lake Benton, Mayor Marlin Thompson and Jim Nichols, the former state Agriculture Commissioner and Legislator, who now works on economic development projects in this part of the state. They're with me in Lake Benton, where we're broadcasting from the deck outside the John C. Fremont Emporium. Joining us from our Saint Paul studio is Audrey Zibelman, director of Energy Marketing for Northern States Power Company. Good morning. And welcome to all of you.

And listeners, our phone lines are open for your questions and comments. You can reach us at 1-800-537-5252. The number again is 1-800-537-5252. The glaciers that moved across the country 10,000 years ago pushed up a huge ridge of dirt and rock in the middle of the prairie. The 200 mile long Buffalo ridge, which runs from South Dakota across Southwestern Minnesota and into Iowa, provides the ideal setting for wind power. Jim Nichols, tells us why.

JIM NICHOLS: Well, Rachel, living here all of our life, the wind was a little too much, at times, but now, we're glad to have it. We are 2,000 feet in the air here at Lake Benton. It's the second highest point in Minnesota. And when you have a huge expanse of prairie and all of a sudden, you have a steep escarpment of land that juts up 2,000 feet, the wind has to flow over that. It is compressed, it picks up speed as it flows over, and actually, as it goes down the back side, it even speeds up even more. It's called the waterfall effect.

So anytime you have a piece of land that jumps up sharply, you're going to catch a lot of wind. And we're lucky to have it.

RACHEL REABE: And we always call the prairies the blustery prairies anyway. So even without Buffalo ridge, this is a big wind part of the country.

JIM NICHOLS: Yes, it is. And actually, five states are the best in the United States-- Minnesota, the two Dakotas, Montana, and Wyoming could produce more than enough electricity for the entire United States just from wind. That's how strong our resource is.

AUDREY ZIBELMAN: Audrey Zibelman, that's your job with Northern States Power Company. When did you first start looking into the possibility of wind power?

AUDREY ZIBELMAN: Actually, NSP started looking into wind generation as early as 1980. We had a project in 1982 where we established 14 wind monitoring sites around the state to basically look at various wind speeds and see what would be the best resources. And in 1986, we had a small project we developed, about 120, 95 kilowatt, very small project near Holland. And then mid '80s, we announced a 25 megawatt project, and then right after that, a 100 megawatt. So we've actually been in the wind business quite some time.

RACHEL REABE: Now Minnesota's first full fledged introduction to wind power came about five years ago, when the Minnesota legislature required NSP to develop a wind power project in exchange for permission to store more nuclear waste.

Audrey Zibelman, have you found that wind power is cost-effective or is becoming cost-effective, or is that a lengthy process before you can turn that corner?

AUDREY ZIBELMAN: Well, the price for wind energy has come down considerably over the last 15, 20 years as we've gone into looking at wind generation. However, wind, as a resource, continues to be much more expensive than more conventional resources. It also poses an additional issue in the fact that the wind generation is only available when in fact, the wind blows and people use electricity all the time.

So one of the wind provides value to the system in the sense that it is a no emitting type resource. It also has very substantial limitations because it is only available on what we call an intermittent basis.

RACHEL REABE: And as we sit here, Jim Nichols, we can see the wind turbines about two miles from us, and we see one of them turning, and one of them is not turning. But yesterday, I'll bet all the turbines were blowing here.

JIM NICHOLS: It was a windy day yesterday. But even today, as you can see, it's blowing the papers across the desk here. So this project is in the start up phase, really, Rachel. And in the end, when it's windy at all, all of them will turn. So we're just in the beginning phases here.

RACHEL REABE: And so are you taking a long view, Jim Nichols, that at some point, that wind power will be competitive with coal or nuclear power?

JIM NICHOLS: Well, I think Audrey said it very well and is to be committed. I was with Governor Perpich when we dedicated the ones in 1986 at Holland. And the cost then was $0.10 to $0.12. Now we're down to around 3 and 1/2 cents a kilowatt with the federal tax credit. And Zond believes we'll get that price below $0.03, that's a very competitive price. Coal today to build a plant would be about $0.05. Nuclear wouldn't even be affordable. The older nuclear plants are about $1.8 cents.

So when you get in that 3 and 1/2 cent range, it's a very good price. And it's a long term contract as well. The price is fixed for 30 years.

RACHEL REABE: Our phone lines are open for your questions and comments, listeners. You can give us a call and join this conversation by calling 1-800-537-5252. The number, 1-800-537-5252. How do you feel about wind power? And do you think it's worth the investment? Give us a call and join our conversation today.

Marlin Thompson, you are the mayor of this town of 700 people. Lincoln County is not the most prosperous county in the state, in fact, it's on the other end of things. Last year, it was one of the poorest counties in the state in terms of per capita income. Did you desperately need this shot in the arm?

MARLIN THOMPSON: Well, I think so. It certainly has assisted the city and the surrounding area and the entire county from a number of aspects. And wind power is something that is certainly needed. And it's something that has been a tremendous benefit to the entire area, not only the City of Lake Benton.

RACHEL REABE: And in terms of how many wind turbines or how it's been impacted, talk a little bit about that.

MARLIN THOMPSON: The impact on the city has been from a number of aspects. Some of those have been related to the operational aspect and the maintenance facility and what have you. And Zond did install their operational and maintenance building within the City of Lake Benton, which of course, added to our tax base, which was important to us. But they also brought with this project a number of jobs. And jobs are mighty important, of course.

And during the construction phase, we had approximately 150 jobs were created. And some of those, of course, on a part time basis. And then it came to-- when they started with the actual operation of the facility, we had about another 20 individuals were employed on a full time basis. And the number is still growing so just good things coming from that alone.

RACHEL REABE: And this community, like many small rural communities that reach their peak population, perhaps, in the '60s and then started to lose population, you were down to what at one point?

MARLIN THOMPSON: Well, we were down to about 650 at one point. And of course, back in the early 70s, the population was nearing 1,000. But a number of things entered into the decline of population, so we're at a point now where we think we're on the upswing.

RACHEL REABE: Jim Nichols, do you have any idea how many landowners here have benefited from the wind turbines? We know that in this part of the state, we have over 300 wind turbines operating. Any idea how many people that would represent in terms of having those on their land?

JIM NICHOLS: Well, actually, the number is closer to 400 that have now been built, and that stretches over three counties, Rachel. And we have the two projects here, South of town and North of Lake Benton. So it's more than 50 farmers that have benefited directly from monetary payments, either lump sum payments or a percentage of the gross operating revenue. So it's been very good for our farm economy.

And as Marlin said, it came about at a time when we were struggling. The '80s was hard on all of rural Minnesota. Lake Benton was no exception. It was hard on farmers, the farm crisis. And it's been-- in my judgment, it's the greatest economic thing that has ever happened to Lincoln County. And I've lived here my whole life.

RACHEL REABE: Mainstreet reporter, Mark Steil, is standing underneath one of the huge wind turbines on the farm of Ernest and Florine Benick, four miles Southeast from where we are in Lake Benton.

Good morning, Mark.

MARK STEIL: Good morning, Rachel. We're on the Benick Farm, as you said. And we've been treated to quite a show here in about the last 15 or 20 minutes. When we came to the wind turbine, the blades were not turning. It's been a pretty calm morning. But then the wind started blowing just a little bit. And we heard a motor start and we saw the top of the wind turbine pivot to face into the wind. And then slowly, the blade started turning. And now they're going around at a pretty good clip. And it's quite a sight with each of the blades being about 50 feet long as it pivots in the wind.

And from this hilltop, I can see at least 50 or 70 wind turbines to the Northwest of us and then to the Southeast. If I turn that way, you can see about an equal number, some within a few blocks and others miles away.

Ernest and Florine Benick have seven of these wind machines on their land. And they've become quite attached to them. In fact, Florine has even given names to some of the turbines.

What names did you come up with?

FLORINE BENICK: Faithful, and Lazybones, and Bessie and--

MARK STEIL: Things like that.

FLORINE BENICK: Just pets.

MARK STEIL: Do you watch these wind machines each day to see what they're up to?

FLORINE BENICK: Yeah, because you always know what direction the wind is from and how fast they're going. You can just about tell what direction-- how fast the wind is. And at night, if you're laying in bed, you can listen. And if the one's across the road are swooshing, then the wind's in the North. If it isn't, then the wind must be in the South because I can't hear them.

MARK STEIL: Ernest, you're retired now from farming, but during your farming days and even now, is this a fairly windy spot, this hilltop that we're on right now?

ERNEST BENICK: I think it's about the windiest part of the country around here because years ago, when my dad was farming, every time we had to go out and pick rocks, of course, the wind was blowing 30, 40 miles an hour. So--

MARK STEIL: What do you think about wind power? I mean, does it make sense to you?

ERNEST BENICK: Oh, yeah, it makes good sense to me because as long as the wind is there, why not use it? Years ago, they used to have-- these farmers around here used to have 32 volt wind chargers and got electricity off of them too.

MARK STEIL: And what kind of agreement did you did you come to with the company as far as providing the land for these wind machines? I assume that you get paid something for them.

ERNEST BENICK: Oh, yeah, we got paid a good lump sum right away in the beginning. And there was no argument because we was glad to see them come through here.

MARK STEIL: It's something that the region can build on.

ERNEST BENICK: Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's--

MARK STEIL: Florine, you told me you like to listen to them and watch them. How about the idea of wind energy? Was it something you'd thought about before the wind machines went up here or is it something new?

FLORINE BENICK: It was something new, but it was interesting. And they gave a lot of local people jobs. The neighbor boy works on the crew that takes care of these. And several farmers around here, their sons are all-- and son in-laws are working for Zond and the various companies that help put those up.

MARK STEIL: Ernest, I noticed that the land is still farmed to a great degree on these hilltops, where the wind turbines are. Is it difficult farming around these wind machines? What situations does that pose?

ERNEST BENICK: No, it isn't any trouble farming around the roads. There's not any of the renters have never complained about it because they know it's there. And that's it.

MARK STEIL: I mean, you can maneuver around them with the tractors? The concrete pads, actually, are not that big. They're maybe 20 feet square, maybe a little bit less than that. And that's about it that is taken up by the wind machines?

ERNEST BENICK: Years ago here them wet years we had. Well, we had to maneuver around the mud holes too. So it isn't any different now.

MARK STEIL: That's Ernest Benick. And we've also been talking with Florine Benick. We're high on a hilltop, about four miles from you, Rachel. And we'll send it back to you now.

RACHEL REABE: Thank you. That's our Mainstreet reporter, Mark Steil, on location under a wind turbine just outside of Lake Benton.

Jim Nichols, Mr. Benick talked about getting a lump sum to have these seven wind turbines on his property. Is that usually how it goes?

JIM NICHOLS: That's the way it started here. And I think it was a learning curve. And you have to commend NSP because they wanted to do it right. Our turbines here, as you've commented, are all the tubular turbines, which are probably aesthetically more attractive than the lattice type towers. And they've got four different types of wind turbines in this project now, four different companies. So they really tried to do it right.

And I think, in the learning curve, initially, they came out and made lump sum payments. And I know South of town, the Benicks and others received those lump sum payments. In some cases, they were quite large, Rachel.

They actually we bought the wind rights. And wind right is like a mineral right. So we all hear of mineral rights, whether it's gold, or coal, or oil, or whatever. Well, in this case, wind is just a mineral. It's treated like a mineral right. The problem with that is once the mineral right is sold, that money eventually is lost from the community. So hopefully, there'll be more of the percentage of gross payments.

RACHEL REABE: And Audrey Zibelman, did that just seem to make sense, initially, just to buy the wind rights outright?

AUDREY ZIBELMAN: Yes. Actually, one of our concerns as we looked at wind development in Southwestern Minnesota, as Mr. Nichols stated, we wanted to make sure that aesthetically, the area looked . good. And we didn't have a lot of different types of tower types. That's what happened in California. And that was one of our concerns.

The other is that because wind generation is geographically specific, you want to put your windmills where the best wind is. We were concerned that there would be a lot of land speculation and that would drive up the cost of the resource. And so what we did is we went out and we site-- we identified what we believed would be the best site for the wind farms and negotiated with the farmers.

The other reason we did that is we wanted to make sure that all developers had a fair chance to develop the project. And we felt that by us having the wind rights, that would mean that we wouldn't have one developer trying to bid out another developer and rather, that a site would be available for everybody. And that worked out very well. I think, as a result of that, the wind prices that we have seen in Minnesota for wind generation is considerably lower than other parts of the country.

RACHEL REABE: So Marlin Thompson, you haven't seen any mad rush for people to snap up the highest land around Lake Benton?

MARLIN THOMPSON: Oh, I don't think that's the case. In fact, most of the land, of course, is either been in families for years and years or we have landowners who have taken an interest in this from the beginning. And I might add, an extremely important part of all of this are the farmers and the landowners who have provided the space for all of these turbines.

RACHEL REABE: Well, let's talk about this idea of the lump sum payment. I can imagine, for the Benicks and older couple, that would be marvelous to receive this really gift of money to have these wind turbines on their land. What happens, though, Jim Nichols, when the Benicks sell their farm and new people come in and try to make a go of it, and the wind rights are already gone? That money's been paid out and spent.

JIM NICHOLS: Well, as the Benicks know, their land, actually, will be worth less when they go to sell it, and even when they pass it on to their children, because you've sold a valuable part of that resource. And in some cases here, the wind, it's better than farming, actually, Rachel, so you're going to get more money from the wind.

RACHEL REABE: How would you like to see it structured? What would be a better idea.

MARLIN THOMPSON: Well, an NSP is actually doing this now. They're letting the wind developers go out and acquire the wind easements. And the NSP puts out the power contract. And it's by bid. And they award the power contract. And those wind developers get the easements.

Generally, historically, that's been a percent of gross. Audrey is right in that their fear was initially, there'd be a fight over the best land and potentially, it could drive up the cost of the wind. So to be fair, NSP purchased the wind rights and then let-- the wind developers didn't have to buy the wind rights. That was already there. They just had to put in a bid for the cost of construction, which was good.

But now as the project gets larger and we see wind developers in South Dakota and in Minnesota trying to get the best land in, they're out actually getting the easements on the property, not NSP. And I think long term, that's the way it will go. Because NSP doesn't want to be out there. I don't think Audrey buying wind rights all up and down the ridge.

RACHEL REABE: Are you done buying wind rights, Audrey?

AUDREY ZIBELMAN: Yes. And I agree with that. That is our concern, initially, was to make sure that we could get the projects done and avoid land speculation. Now that we're looking at expanding the geographic area and effectively, the whole process is matured more, we determined that the best next step is to then to have the developers go out and acquire the land, the wind resources themselves.

I think Mike said this initially. And I and I think this is an important part. This is the largest wind project that's going on right now in this country. And one of the things that we've learned and I think, the community's learned is that we started off everybody trying to do the best thing all the times, and we're all learning. And we're working on different things. And as each project comes in, we learn a little bit more about it, we learn a little bit more about the resource. And that is really helping.

And I think as wind develops, it's going to-- and it matures as a technology, people will-- the developers will need to look at things like acquiring the land rights, working with the farmers to make sure that they feel that they have the best deal that they want to get, and looking at other things, such as transmission, that are all be essential in order for wind to become a viable resource.

RACHEL REABE: Let's go to our phone lines. We have Mike from Saint Paul standing by.

Good morning, Mike. Welcome to the program.

AUDIENCE: Thank you. I just wanted to-- I went to school at Gustavus and did a lot of research there on wind power there. It's always been-- they've been talking there about bringing that into the school. But it never ends up working as far as because of money and things like that.

But what I found out is that there are so many students out there, just hundreds and hundreds of students out there that are really interested in being involved with this. And they don't know how to get involved with it, one thing. And the other thing is that I think they should be, because there are so many-- it basically would be, probably, free labor because there's so many people that are in their 20s, trying to figure out what to do with their life, interested in wind power. And I just wanted to let that be known.

RACHEL REABE: So it's something you're very interested in seeing it develop?

AUDIENCE: Yeah. Definitely.

RACHEL REABE: Now, let me ask you this question, Mike. If you had a chance to pay more for your electricity and know that that energy was coming from wind power instead of a coal-generated plant, would you be willing to do that?

AUDIENCE: Definitely. Yeah. Without a doubt.

RACHEL REABE: And you think your other Minnesotans would go along with you?

AUDIENCE: I think that a lot of people would. I think, especially, in Minnesota, Minnesota is a place that, I get the feeling, is very concerned about that type of movement.

RACHEL REABE: Audrey Zibelman, what would your comment be on that?

AUDREY ZIBELMAN: Well, I think that's true that a lot of people, and there have been some experiments along these lines, are willing to pay additional amounts to purchase what renewable resources, whether it's wind or solar or biomass. I think it's important for everyone to understand, however, that wind as a resource is not controllable. And one of the things that electricity is it can't be stored. And when people turn on their lights or they turn on their computer, or they turn on their air conditioner, they need it 24 hours a day.

And so while wind is a resource that can be used, it can't be a substitute for coal or nuclear or gas resources that we can control. And while it's good to develop-- while we think it's beneficial to develop renewable resources, they always can be a complement. And the issue is, how much more are we willing to pay in order to help develop the renewables? There's always a cap. And it always-- and it depends on people's individual choices. That's one of the benefits we see, actually, from a choice program is it gives people that chance.

RACHEL REABE: We go now to Minneapolis where Scott is standing by.

Good morning, Scott. Welcome to this Mainstreet special.

AUDIENCE: Yes, hi. I had a quick question. I'm familiar with the Kenetech wind farm in Wyoming. And I knew they had a problem of birds being killed by flying into the rotors and things. I was wondering if you guys had that same kind of problem and if you've had any devices installed to maybe deter birds from doing that? I'll take my answer offline. Thanks

RACHEL REABE: Thank you, Scott. Has there been a problem with birds that you know of, Marlin? Has that been a problem?

MARLIN THOMPSON: I'm not aware of that being a problem here at all.

AUDREY ZIBELMAN: I can--

JIM NICHOLS: Rachel, I live-- I don't have any on my farm, but I live quite close to them. I have never seen a bird killed ever. And we've had them here since 1994.

First of all, the turbines spin, generally, around 30 revolutions per minute, very slowly. And the birds have no problem getting them out of the way. Far more birds I've seen killed, somebody hit him with their car. I mean, really, bird kill is just not an issue.

RACHEL REABE: Audrey, did you have a comment on that?

AUDREY ZIBELMAN: Yeah, we did do some avian studying that the, I think, it was the pollution control agency or an environmental board in Minnesota asked us to do. And a lot of the wind turbines are on flyways across the country. That was a problem in California, and I believe, in Wyoming. Especially in California, people are concerned about the Eagles.

The wind turbines in Lake Benton do not have the same issues. I think there are some small birds. And I believe, there might have been an issue with geese, but not in the amounts or not at the problems that they saw elsewhere.

I think the other thing that we did hear is the blades are also painted black. And it allows the birds to see them a little better. Also, one of the reasons we went to tubular as opposed to the lattice type towers is it avoided the birds nesting in the towers, which was also a problem with the other types of towers. So it was an issue that we were aware of and we sought to address the best way we could.

RACHEL REABE: We're talking about wind power with our guests, Audrey Zibelman from Northern States Power Company, economic developer and former state Agriculture Commissioner, Jim Nichols, and Lake Benton Mayor, Marlin Thompson. I'm Rachel Reabe. And you're listening to a special Mainstreet Radio broadcast from the Southwestern Minnesota town of Lake Benton, home to the largest wind farm project in the world.

MPR's Mainstreet Radio coverage of rural issues is supported by the Blandin Foundation, committed to strengthening communities through grant-making, leadership training, and convening. We'll be back with more of Mainstreet Street after a look at news and weather.

SHACKLETON: My name is Shackleton.

SPEAKER 2: Wild, wild as a ship.

SPEAKER 3: Did you miss the broadcast of walking out of history, our new documentary about Shackleton's amazing endurance voyage?

SPEAKER 4: It's 28 men in the fight of their life.

SPEAKER 5: He always found a way out.

SPEAKER 3: You can find the whole program on the web at www.mpr.org, plus photos of the expedition and more. It's walking out of history on the web at www.mpr.org.

GRETA CUNNINGHAM: Good morning. With news from Minnesota Public Radio, I'm Greta Cunningham. A Wisconsin State appeals court says a woman accused of trying to drink her fetus to death cannot be charged with attempted murder. The judges ruled that the term "Human being" does not cover an unborn child under state law.

Debra Zimmerman had been in a bar the day she gave birth. Her daughter was born with a blood alcohol level nearly twice the state standard for drunkenness. Zimmerman was charged with intentional homicide and reckless injury. The child had a low birth weight and mild physical abnormalities. She's now three years old and in foster care.

A decision is expected today in a controversial case out of Pennsylvania involving a toddler on life support. A judge is deciding whether to grant custody to the state, which wants the boy taken off life support. The boy's father could face murder charges for allegedly shaking the child and causing irreversible brain damage. The child's parents are fighting to maintain custody of the child, and they say they're against removing life support for religious reasons.

In regional news, authorities expect to file more charges today in connection with the weekend disturbance in downtown Saint Joseph. The Saint Joseph police chief says his officers have identified 12 more people that will be charged with disorderly conduct and unlawful assembly. They were identified from videotapes made during the melee early Saturday morning.

20 people were arrested at the scene when about 300 young people filled Mainstreet and threw rocks and bottles at officers and lit bonfires. The crowd was dispersed in about 90 minutes. And no injuries were reported. Officials at Saint John's University and the College of Saint Benedict say the incident is prompting them to rethink their graduation weekend activities for next year.

The forecast for the state of Minnesota calls for mostly sunny skies statewide and warmer temperatures today, highs ranging from 75 in the North to 85 in the South. Clear skies tonight in the East with clouds in the West, and a slight chance of a shower or thunderstorm in Western Minnesota. Lows tonight from 45 to 55 degrees.

Checking current conditions, mostly sunny skies around the region. Rochester reports sunshine and 66. It's sunny in Saint Cloud and 69, Sunny in Duluth and 67. And in the Twin Cities, mostly sunny skies, a temperature of 68 degrees. That's the news update. I'm Greta Cunningham.

RACHEL REABE: I'm Rachel Reabe. And this live Mainstreet Radio special is coming to you from the back deck of the Fremont Emporium in Downtown Lake Benton, where we can see the wind turbines turning in the distance.

Listeners, you can join our conversation by calling us at 1-800-537-5252. That number again, 1-800-537-5252. And we will go back to the phone lines where we have Russell from Minneapolis standing by.

Good morning, Russell.

AUDIENCE: Good morning. I wanted to make a comment on the comparative costs of wind power with coal energy and nuclear energy. Wind power is far, far less expensive, far, far cheaper. When you add in the costs of public health effects from either nuclear power or coal burning plants, coal, you have the air pollution problems, including mercury, which has contaminated our fish. And the cost of health care, as a result of air pollution is very expensive.

Nuclear power, in addition, you have the cost of waste storage. Radioactive waste, some of them, including plutonium, one of the most serious of all the radioactive waste, has a life of 250,000 years. They're stored in storage tanks that at best have been figure will last for several hundred years. And that may be optimistic. But the cost--

RACHEL REABE: So let's give Audrey Zibelman from Northern States Power Company, a chance to address some of your concerns. Audrey, how much does NSP factor in of the surrounding costs for producing energy? Would you address that question?

AUDREY ZIBELMAN: Yes. Actually, when we go out and we look at new resources, we do look at these what we call external environmental costs. But I think the way I look at it is this. At NSP, where I work on a 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, we have people buying and selling and turning on generators in order to meet the needs of customers. And the cost of the wind generation, when we use it, is anywhere between $0.30 and $0.40 that we, NSP, has to pay for it.

In comparison, when we go out on the market, particularly, during what we call our off peak hours, we can buy energy between $0.09 to $0.17. And so when I look at the cost of wind energy compared to others, we're still continuing to pay considerably more for the energy.

The other issue, and I think, it's important that we don't lose sight of this, in terms of electricity in general, it's an essential resource. People need it all the time. One of the things that is absolutely critical that coal and nuclear provides us as a resource is it is available all of the time, on demand.

And unless-- because wind is its very nature is we can't control it, we're always going to need these type of baseload resources that are going to meet people's needs when they need electricity. When you turn on your computer, when you turn on your lights, when you open your refrigerator, all these things that we demand on our daily lives for electricity, we're going to need these types of resources to help meet that demand.

That doesn't suggest it's an either/or proposition. The whole goal is to have a diverse mix of resources, which I think NSP actually has does quite a good job of to make sure that you keep electricity in a way that it's economically inexpensive, it's competitively priced, and as well as reliable. That is going to continue to be very essential.

RACHEL REABE: Our phone number is 1-800-537-5252, if you'd like to call and ask your question. We go now to Richard in Minneapolis.

Good morning, Richard.

Let's see if we can get Steve from Saint Paul on the line.

Steve, have we got you on the phone?

AUDIENCE: Yes.

RACHEL REABE: Yes. Good morning.

AUDIENCE: This is--

RACHEL REABE: Go ahead with your--

AUDIENCE: --Richard.

RACHEL REABE: Yes. Go ahead with your question.

AUDIENCE: OK. Thank you. I'm confused, just now, the NSP spokesperson talked about costs of $0.30 or $0.40 for wind. But I think the guy from the Southwest Regional Development Area was talking $0.03, 3 and 1/2 cents. But maybe that could be addressed by other issue, though, particularly, for the NSP spokesperson is this whole idea that she just brought up again, of reliability that is the wind doesn't blow all the time.

Well, that's completely true. That's obvious. But we get so little from wind right now. And I want to know, how much could we be getting from wind before we actually have a problem with that concept of reliability? I mean, is it 10%? Is it 20%? How much could we get compared to how much we have now?

And also, that goes to, how are we supposed to know how much we're getting? I mean, I have no idea how much we get from coal, from wind, from nuclear. Why don't we just, on a monthly basis, have the electric company tell us where this power is coming from? Just put it on our bill.

RACHEL REABE: Audrey Zibelman, let's start out, isn't it about 70% in the state that it's supplied from the coal-fired plants accurate?

AUDREY ZIBELMAN: No, that's not correct. Actually, I can address this a couple of ways. In terms of Minnesota itself or NSP itself, we have about less than 50% of our generation is coal-based, another 35% is nuclear, and then the rest is some gas and purchases. We actually have quite a bit of hydro in our mix because of our contracts with Manitoba Hydro, as well as the hydro plants that NSP owns. So roughly about 20% comes from non-emitting hydro wind resources. In terms of the--

RACHEL REABE: What's the wind at this point? Is wind about 1% at this point?

AUDREY ZIBELMAN: Wind is about 2% if we look at the energy. And once we complete the 425 megawatts that we'll be putting in, it's about 3% to 4%. And the reason we look at it that way is that when we look at in terms of energy production, because that's what you really need is how many megawatts or kilowatt hours do you get out of it. Wind produces at about 20% to 25% of the time on average. We've seen it producing on the projects we have between 15% and 18%, actually, depending on whether it's summer or winter, but between in the low 20s is an average, and in the summer, even less, which is during our high peak times.

So the issue to me of reliability is if you say that the wind is available in the summer months during high peak of 10% at the time that you need it, then that means that during the remaining 90% of the time, you're going to need additional energy resources that you can control in order to meet your needs. And that will require, basically, investment in different types of plants that you may be just sitting idle some of the times and other times that you will be turning on and off. And that's part of the challenge, I think, as we look at wind as a resource is determining what is that appropriate mix.

Right now, with the 206 megawatts that NSP has online today, we're at the most that we've ever seen out of that 206 is 85 megawatts, which means that if we're going to continue to look at wind as a resource, we need to be realistic as to what it can produce and how it's going to be able to meet needs.

RACHEL REABE: The gigantic wind turbines that dot the landscape around Lake Benton are operated by Enron Wind Corporation. We have the president of Enron, Robert Gates, on the phone with us from their company headquarters in California.

Good morning, Mr. Gates.

ROBERT GATES: Good morning. And thanks for the opportunity to share this time with you.

RACHEL REABE: US Energy Secretary Bill Richardson says the Lake Benton wind project is the first big test of wind power. From your point of view, how do you think it's going?

ROBERT GATES: We think it's going well. It is the first of the relatively large scale installations in the great plains, basically, built on schedule. And we're going through the teething time when we get everything dialed in correctly and get it running reliably. At the same time, we're doing that for the NSP projects. We're also putting in projects for some utilities in Iowa. So there's a combination of working through the start up bugs and completing the construction on several other very large facilities simultaneously.

I expect that we'll see the reliability and the productivity of the wind plants increase over the next year such that when NSP is looking at how much they get from wind, I believe they'll see the percentages increase. We think on, an annual basis, ought to be able to count on between 30% and 40% output, although, that is, to some extent, weighted more toward the winter when the wind blows and a little less when the summer when it's calm.

And I think Audrey's point earlier is correct. The challenge that we have as a society as well as our companies is to most efficiently use these renewable resources. And it's something new. It's not just turn on a valve and burn a fuel. So we have to figure out how do we do this in a way that's a reasonable balance.

RACHEL REABE: Now you operate-- your company, actually, operates in is developing wind projects around the world. And in some places, they are providing as much as 15% of the power output. I'm thinking of the place in Germany, the Northern state of Schleswig-Holstein. Do you think that's possible here? Audrey Zibelman talks about, we're at about 2%, we could get up to 3% or 4%. Are we ever going to get up to the 15%, 20%, 25%, do you think?

ROBERT GATES: I think that there's-- I think that you can, on a physics sense. I know in California, the Pacific Gas and Electric Company, a major utility serving the better part of the central part of the state, on some summer afternoons, I understand, is getting 20%, sometimes, more from the wind.

I think that the amount of wind you can have goes with the attitude that the utility and the people have toward wind. If the attitude is, this is a problem we can't figure it out, well, then, you can't figure it out. And it is a problem. On the other hand, if the attitude is, my golly, it's a clean resource here, and we're just going to figure out how to use a lot of it. Well then, I think that will be the result also.

Mankind has figured out all kinds of things. And using wind to make electricity is not a really difficult thing to figure out. So I think that the ability to use wind is entirely in our control and has entirely to do with our attitude of how we look at it.

RACHEL REABE: Audrey Zibelman, how would you respond to that?

AUDREY ZIBELMAN: I think that in the realm of physics, what you can produce is what the megawatts you put in. The real issue is, what is the resulting price and are people willing to pay for that? One of the things that we in California is that the average price of electricity prior to deregulation was, I think, between $0.12 and $0.14 a kilowatt hour. In Minnesota, people pay between $0.05 and $0.06. And I think, Germany, I'm not quite sure, but I think that's probably more expensive, too.

And that's not to say it's bad or good, it's just a question of, again, recognizing that there's-- and I think of it as a three way three-legged stool. It's always a question of doing what you can to protect the environment, making sure you're using your best resources wisely, and then also thinking about economy and the fact that electricity is an essential service as well as reliability. And that, I think, is going to take the weight we look at it.

We see this the 425 is providing a lot of incredibly valuable information to us to determine how we can best use wind in our system. That will help, I think, lay the way for figuring out the best way to add additional resources in the state. And again, we would hope that as we move forward, it's not just NSP and its consumers that are participating in this, but the customers of other utilities as well.

RACHEL REABE: Robert Gates, we began this program talking about why this part of the country is so windy. And we talked about glacier activity in Buffalo Ridge. Your company operates worldwide. What are some of the other windy places on the globe?

ROBERT GATES: Interestingly, in most places, there is most places there's adequate wind. In particular, along the sea coasts where you have differentials in temperature between the oceans and inland. Inland generally being warmer than the oceans. And the heat differential causes wind.

You have a fair amount along the coasts in Europe. In North America, you have a huge amount in the northern plains, as you've described. In Central America and for that matter, around the world, in the trade wind belts, of course, you have wind that's blowing most all of the time. In Asia, in China, virtually every place, you have wind in selected locations.

One of the challenges of working with wind is that the wind resource is usually in places where it's windy, prominent geographic features like Buffalo Ridge. However, mankind has been clever enough to put its towns and cities in places where it's not windy as can be. And so moving the power from where the resource is to the people-- where the people are is one of the challenges. As we move from putting power plants in the middle of the city where the people are to a more distributed generation mode, the transmission of the power is one of the issues.

And as Audrey has stated, all of this is in the context of the economics of the whole thing. At what cost do you get? What benefit? And where is a balance? And I think the balance moves with time as people's changing attitudes towards environment and costs move, then so does the optimum balance move.

RACHEL REABE: And what is the potential here? We look out at the landscape. We can see the turbines turning on the ridge in the distance. At some point, in your mind, can you see many more turbines in this part of the state?

ROBERT GATES: Yes. I think that you can make wind at reasonable commercial prices today along the Buffalo Ridge virtually from Canada down into Iowa. As you move from the Buffalo Ridge to the West, the wind continues to be good, clear on out to the Rocky Mountains in Montana and Wyoming and so on. The whole East side of the plains and the Rocky Mountains, Eastern Colorado, New Mexico, Texas, Nebraska, Kansas, all are reasonable wind places in today's world, where the technology of wind has brought the cost of wind-generated electricity down to close to the cost of conventional power generation. And we think with some continued development can be competitive on just a plain straight economic basis and all of the environmental benefits as just an add on.

RACHEL REABE: Robert Gates, thank you for your time this morning. We've been speaking to Robert Gates, who is the president of Enron, the corporation that operates the wind turbines.

I have a question for you, guys, sitting here with me in Lake Benton. It's so windy, we're holding on to our papers. And I have to hold my pen so it doesn't blow away. Why is that turbine not turning in the distance? We have one turning and another one that's standing still.

JIM NICHOLS: Whenever there's a problem, the computer automatically shuts it down. So I would say, and it's almost always a minor problem because they start back up very quickly. But the head of maintenance out there, Mark Pearman, I'm sure, he's probably-- I know he's listening, in fact. So he'll probably start that one.

MARLIN THOMPSON: I think he has it under control, Jim. I think it's all under control. It's just a matter of little maintenance and it'll be back up and running.

RACHEL REABE: So it's not that it's not windy enough?

MARLIN THOMPSON: No, that's not the case at all.

RACHEL REABE: OK. Let's go to our phone lines. And we have lots of callers. Thank you for your patience. We go to Saul now in Winona.

Good morning, sir.

AUDIENCE: Good morning. I'd like to first point out that I get my power from Dairyland Power, which is just right across the river from Winona in Wisconsin. And we were-- they have a program where we can-- individuals can sign up to buy wind power. And I pay a few more dollars a month, I think it's about $4 more a month.

And based on how many people signed up, they built that many more generators actually in the area that you're broadcasting from. So even though I don't know if my electrons came from there, I'm paying for that much more wind power being added to the grid. And I'm glad to do it because--

RACHEL REABE: Are you willing to do that?

AUDIENCE: Yeah. I'm not contributing to all the environmental consequences that result from nuclear and coal. And I'd like to point out that NSP said that they need nuclear and coal for reliability. However, those are very obsolete sources of power. If you look at all the new power plants being constructed, they're natural gas. Natural gas, or wind, or conservation, those are the sources of energy for the future. And coal and nuclear, we need to phase out because they're expensive if you take in all their costs. And they have all these added effects for our state.

RACHEL REABE: So this is my question for you. If you're willing to pay $4 more a month, would you be willing to pay $24 more a month or $44 a month? What's your ceiling for what you would go to support wind power?

AUDIENCE: I'd be willing to pay a lot more. But at some point, as I paid more and more, I would be sure to conserve more and more electricity because conservation is the same as-- if you use less power, it's the same as producing that much more power. So the more-- I'd be willing to pay, let's say, $25 more a month, but as it went up, I would be making sure that I was really looking at the use of power in my house to make sure I was minimizing it also as I was paying more so that I actually would try to reach some happy medium. I think right now, our energy sources are so cheap that people don't pay attention to all the waste that's occurring in our system.

RACHEL REABE: Thanks for your call this morning. We go now to Port Wing, Wisconsin, where Chris is standing by. Good morning, Chris.

AUDIENCE: Hi, how are you doing today?

RACHEL REABE: I'm fine.

AUDIENCE: Great program. I'm real interested in a couple of things. I'm a renewable energy dealer and distributor. I work with Great Northern Solar up here. And the NSP representative indicated that the availability and reliability issues with renewables were a big problem. Is this person aware of the availability of hydrogen as a storage medium? I'd like to talk just briefly about that.

RACHEL REABE: Audrey Zibelman, could you respond to that?

AUDREY ZIBELMAN: Yes, I am aware of the hydrogen and other types of storage facilities. There are a number of different research projects going on to look at storage. However, it continues to be non-commercial in the sense it's too expensive to put it in commercial base. But there's a couple of groups and energy research group that NSP and many other utilities participate in, I know is looking at that issue.

RACHEL REABE: [INAUDIBLE] to that.

AUDREY ZIBELMAN: One thing I do want to add before-- I'm sure there's another question, NSP has on its internet site. For those listeners of yours who are interested to a lot of information on renewables as well as links to other sites. And I would encourage anybody, who is interested in renewables and how they are participant, to actually look on that internet site. And there's a lot of good information there.

RACHEL REABE: Thank you for your comment. We move now to Rochester, where Esther is standing by on the phone.

Good morning, Esther.

AUDIENCE: Hello?

RACHEL REABE: Yes.

AUDIENCE: Can you hear me?

RACHEL REABE: You're on air. Yes.

AUDIENCE: OK. I can't hear you, but-- I'm calling and it's an issue that has been addressed by other callers as well. But I attended, specifically, a wind energy conference about two years ago in this area. And one of the bits of information that we were left with was the fact that if you add in the cost of storage for nuclear power plants, it makes it the most expensive source of power available.

And that also, coal-fired plants, if you factor in, again, the cost of federal subsidies to produce, ship, and whatever else it is the federal government is helping with in terms of distributing coal as a fuel source, that makes it as expensive as renewable biomass and possibly, as expensive as wind energy.

And so my question is, when we're giving these numbers as to what it costs to produce energy from various fuel sources, are we really factoring in these other costs, specifically, taxpayer financed costs? Because in effect, we're paying for a lot of this energy twice. We pay for it as consumers to producers such as NSP. But I am led to understand, we also pay for it upfront as taxpayers because we have specific subsidies that go to help, for whatever reason, various producers.

RACHEL REABE: Audrey Zibelman, do you to address that?

AUDREY ZIBELMAN: Yes. And I'm not familiar with all the various federal programs and taxes. When I look at the prices for different types of energy, I really get down to how much is it going to cost me and how much is it going to cost my customers on their meter. There is different programs. For example, I think, Bob Gates alluded to it, their production tax credit for wind is about a penny and a half a kilowatt hour right now, which means that if you are looking at-- if you took away that credit, wind would be in a 5 and 1/2 to $0.06 range.

And so I think it's difficult. I mean, we can get into a lot of debates. Fundamentally, when I ask the question and I look at it on a day in and day out basis, my question is, how much is it going to cost me? And how much do I need to charge my customers for different types of energy resources?

And conventional technologies continue to be the more competitive. I think it is true that as people are looking and putting in new power plants, natural gas is the primary resource. There are a lot of issues citing coal and certainly, nuclear would be very difficult to build in this country.

But my major point is that, and I think everyone would appreciate that, ultimately, in terms of having a very sound economy, what we need to do is have a good mix of resources that are dependable and available all the time. Wind has a very critical role and a beneficial role it could play. It's simply not a substitute for other resources. It's a complement.

RACHEL REABE: In the closing minute of our show, Marlin Thompson, I want to ask you, do you expect tourists to begin coming to Lake Benton to view wind power in action here? Have you seen people come to visit?

MARLIN THOMPSON: Well, we certainly have. It's really been one of the spin offs, I guess, you could say, that we really hadn't expected. But it's been that way. And a number of tours have been arranged. And Jim, you've taken part in some of those. And there's really been--

RACHEL REABE: People quite interested, Jim?

JIM NICHOLS: Very, very interested.

MARLIN THOMPSON: And I might also add that another part of the wind power end of it is, first of all, Enron and NSP have both really been good neighbors to the community, which I think is extremely important. They've really cooperated in both directions. And that's something that we're very pleased to have. And along with that, the community has the theme of original wind power capital of the Midwest.

RACHEL REABE: You're too modest, I told you.

MARLIN THOMPSON: We're also proud of that as well. And we have done some things in the community to back that.

RACHEL REABE: Well, you're even thinking about a museum here, are you not?

MARLIN THOMPSON: Yes, we are. A museum that will combine with a learning center, which will provide information regarding wind power.

RACHEL REABE: We are halfway through this Mainstreet broadcast from Lake Benton. Our guests this morning have been Lake Benton Mayor, Marlin Thompson, Audrey Zibelman from Northern States Power Company, and economic developer, Jim Nichols. I'm Rachel Reabe. And next hour, we'll turn our attention to the coming deregulation of Minnesota's electric industry. Some 20 states have already opened their electric industries to competition or in the process of doing so.

Minnesota's commissioner of public service has set a target date of 2001 to begin the deregulation process. Will it improve service and lower rates? Or will deregulation have the opposite effect? We'll talk about it when our Mainstreet special from Lake Benton continues after the news.

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