Good morning, and welcome to the first hour of midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm John Ray be in for Gary eichten. Well, if they gave the keys to the city to our guests in this hour of midday the keys might open some of the buildings he designed we got three Theatres the Cedar Riverside Apartments the Prince of Peace Lutheran Church of the deaf and st. Paul any number of private homes now standing and they've now demolished Pillsbury home on Lake Minnetonka not to mention many other buildings around the world place is known for their openness for their Simplicity. They were all designed by Ralph rapson, one of the founders of modernism celebrating 60 years in design this year. And in fact this weekend. Mr. Robinson joins us for the next half hour on middays got to rush off for a ceremony at the Guthrie at noon. So thank you very much for making time for us today. Good morning. Thank you. And we're also pleased to have with us Tom Fisher who is the dean of the University of Minnesota College of architecture. Thank you for coming in. Thank you. Good to be here. Now. I want to say first off that if you can get to the web you'll want to go to our website www.imtcva.org sometimes doing a show about something like Texture is kind of hard because it's very hard to Envision exactly what it is. We're talking about when we have pictures up on the web. So if you can go to the web do so and you'll see exactly what we're talking about www.m5a1photography.com and org and if you'd like to get involved in the conversation over the phone here are the numbers the Twin Cities 6512276 thousand 6512276 thousand or 1-800 to four to Twenty Eight twenty eight one eight hundred two, four two 2828. If you'd like to get involved in our conversation with Ralph rapson or Tom Fisher, I want to talk about mr. Robinson's contributions and philosophy, but I also want to consider architecture in the Twin Cities. So give us a call and get involved if we could go back to Alma Michigan 84 years ago. That's where you were born and and spend a lot of time as you were growing up. Can you give us a clue? Mr. Rapson what it was that led you to me? Carnism the kinds of things you saw and then what happened in your brain that made you start thinking in a modernistic kind of way. Well, I'm not certain that I can see what it would be in terms of modernism. But in terms of just architecture generally I grew up in the small town and not too far from the town was a in small village was a house designed by Frank Lloyd Wright. I think that was one of the very first experiences I had with architecture that was somewhat different than the normal and I suppose the other thing which is rather amusing is that well all my life. I had been drawing a great deal. I had a pencil or a crane in my hand all the time, but rather musingly I suppose I was keeping time with a young lady in high school when I went to visit the young lady I discovered that her father was Carpenter and around the house of course would be the old issues of American Builder and various other carpenter like buildings. So I think I've probably spent more time and interest in the magazines that I did the young lady, but that was certainly one of the one of the things and I suppose it wasn't the word modernism really didn't enter into it until I really got studying later on into more detail and architecture at the University. What was it about that Frank Lloyd Wright House than that struck you well, it was one of Rights so called usonian houses a very small medium income sort of depression period house it was in most of Rights work. It was typical of his sort of organic approach low horizontality natural materials fairly. Planning and and very closely related to the land and to the environment. Did you like it? I did. Yes, as I still have fond memories of that house and usonian was a movement designed to be accessible really to the to the average person, right? You don't have to buy falling water. You could not say usonian. I think it was right to response to the lower-income modest economic social strata. Okay, so then tell us about modernism. When did you start? I don't know if you start to think of yourself as a modernist, but you know, when did you start thinking in those terms? And what were you aiming for? I think we weren't really calling herself modernists. We were really doing contemporary architecture, but the kind of approach sort of the vocabulary that I have become more associated with was probably during my very first years in the University and incidentally I had run across a book called Kindergarten Chad's by Frank Lloyd Wright Frank Lloyd Wright's teacher Louis Sullivan and that that played a strong part in my growth. But then as I got into architecture began to discover the work of coming from the European scene more than this country the so-called International School of Architecture. If you will the work of corbusier and Alvar aalto and mies Van Der rohe and people of that nature, what did they give us give the listener an idea of what what that looks like. You know, how does it compare to the the spinal prairie style and some that came before I suppose one of the one of the right as we mentioned earlier felt that his building should be very close to the land. Should be springing if you will be related closely with the land the International School of Architecture, perhaps dealt in a larger sense with social issues more perhaps the notion of man built type of thing very very much concerned with how it relates to the urban scenes of the landscape and all of that but more as a man-made product rather than as one that tried to simulate and be rather more closely related to the land. I suppose if one were to be very blunt about it. It's almost like white structures versus let us say natural materials Redwood natural red wood siding in the like that sort of a perhaps to clip thick but I think that would kind of indicate the that at the International School of Architecture was a more Synthetic if you will kind of a look about it, it's 14 minutes past eleven o'clock. If you're just tuning in our guest in the studio are internationally renowned modernist architect and designer Ralph rapson and Tom Fisher who is the current dean of the University of Minnesota College of architecture Let's Pretend for just a second that Ralph rapson is out of the room Tom Fisher. Where is his dis? Oh, you don't have to be embarrassed or anything because we talk nicely about you but 60 years of modern design were celebrating 60 years of Ralph rapson this year this weekend. In fact the lot of events that I'll run down in just a second. But where does where does Ralph rapson fit in the pantheon of Architects and designers? Well Ralph I think is part of what has been called sort of the second generation of modernist the first generation being some of the people that Ralph was just talking about Frank Lloyd Wright Le corbusier mies Van Der rohe, then there was a second generation of people such as erosion. Arne and and Charles Eames and Ralph worked with all of those people and and so in that regard, he's a critical link. I think between European modernism and what happened in America and we're fortunate that he was such a part of this community and it has been for so long because he is really one of the Great's of this Century are years turning red. Are you feeling? Okay? So if somebody were to look at some Modern buildings not not wraps and buildings, but other modern buildings what in them is rapson, you know, where's the influence? What are we seeing today that we wouldn't have seen if there had been no Ralph rapson. God forbid. Well, I think that Ralph's work had a kind of flexibility and a responsiveness to both the program as well as the site in ways that other modern architecture didn't always do Ralph mention that Frank Lloyd Wright was very concerned about adjusting to the site but many of the modern People such as Muse Van Der rohe, for example would often just impose and place his buildings on the landscape in a fairly rigid way Ralph was and has been and still is an architect who is very good at making fine-tuned adjustments to the landscape to views to ventilation cross ventilation as well as to the needs of the people inside the buildings and so as a result, the the architecture tends to be a little bit more complex than some of the box like modern architecture that some people have come to know and not always like Ralph's buildings are much richer and more sculptural and mr. Epstein. This was I think people may say that now modernism is more about style but in those days it was about a social agenda wasn't it very much. So yes, I don't think we ever really spoke about style. It was really a concern about The way people live the way people dream about their environment the way they think about things it was also an attempt to address larger social issues of the urban scene. Well, like what give us some examples. Well, I think there was one very famous book about that time called Ken our city survived. It's a marvelous book it even at that time it pointed out the many many problems that that come about when people congregate in large Urban situations and such as you know, how do you maintain the identity individuality within this larger complex, but that's sort of concern for for the Social and even moral. I think perhaps my maybe almost too much so, but I think we thought we were going to revolutionize the world if you will not only environmentally but maybe And it's more social or structural aspects. Okay Playing devil's advocate here. How can how can a building do that? Isn't that about people it is absolutely about people it. There's no question that you know, our environment does affect us in every way but I think one one of the criticisms of modern has been and recent years was it's perhaps becoming over simplified and perhaps stylized or or lacking in the richness and variety of life and cetera and I think the recent recall or thinking of more about what are what history has taught us has opened up again, once the possibilities and renewed our interest in the totality of our environment. It's not simply bricks and stones and glass and such privilege is a whole range of activities that Encompass people's lives. Do you think he's excited? Did to any extent with that social agenda, I think so, but it often we have criticized criticism of of contemporary architecture modernize them as failing in our cities. Probably it has contributed but certainly while the environment affects all of us daily. It is not necessarily the most in other words political problems or aspects or or ethnic questions or economic or other kinds of things are all part of how our lives are affected in architecture can be a a very enriching part of our lives but it does not necessarily solve all of our problems to somebody who would have moved into the Twin Cities in the last what now, five or six years or so and driving by the Guthrie. You wouldn't know that it looks much different now than the original design a few years ago. They tour Own was basically a kind of a geometric facade that was in front of that building that was part of the original design. Look totally different cast Shadows on the bit. Well, maybe you should tell us about it. Sorry you doing what was the idea behind that? What did it look? Like? What did you want to do? Well, don't get me started on the Guthrie. I could go on for hours, but I think it basically was in this particular part was a question of what should a theater look like Tony sir. Tyrone Guthrie. Nice myself had many discussions about it. We never did really satisfy him as to what the theater should what the expression I thought that as I would say to Tony your Productions are different their unusual their dramatic. They're strong. They're they're boisterous and many occasions their controversial. There's so that when you go to the legitimate say to you you don't go passively you go there to be moved to So some of the Mysteries of the Delight the love I used to use what Joy of going to the theater. It's a very complex thing and it can try to express what you're going to realize in the in the play itself. So you don't want an ordinary experience. Absolutely. Not it. I really am not putting us in the good words, but but I think it should express. In fact, I think almost always at a building ought to express to a degree the function the what is happening within the space now that's that's a rather abstraction. But but it can it can in many cases anticipate what one will experience so now that they've torn down the facade to me. It's just another Bank building or office building. It's you know, it's well done. I suppose for what it is. It's But it doesn't have any of that Mystique or that anticipation of delight or Joy or mystery that one might expect at least. I didn't tear it down. Like they tore down the Pillsbury home, right? It wasn't the kind of a for those are not my life. Is that what you're getting a full you want beautiful home or a home in the modernist style built on Lake Minnetonka for the pillsbury's right? It was torn down just a few years ago despite much protest from some in the architectural Community. Should there be a law against tearing down a building like that? I suppose not I think one has to recognize that that times change and people who occupy buildings change. I don't think in this country. We appreciate to the same degree that perhaps the value of of our built environment as let us say perhaps in all parts of Asia or Europe. I think we're too readily assessable to tearing things down moving on. Maybe it's typical of our whole Midwest that we have had so much land so much openness that we almost have the, you know, the kleenex paper throw away attitude about things that we can mess it up and move on. I wouldn't accuse the new owner of this. It was certainly not his as he told me cup of tea. He was not interested in contemporary. We did talk to him about the possibility of adjusting or modifying it to meet his demands. But as I say, his response was it's not my cup of tea. He wanted something quite different expression. So, yes, you have to develop a pretty strong back in a sense in this business still. How did it feel asking the old trellis to question? How did it feel when you you know, it's knew that was going to be torn down. It's sad. I wouldn't deny that at all it it. However we The people who live there and their children followed them enjoyed and appreciated that and so that when one thinks of it from that point of view it enrich their lives, our phone numbers are 6 512276 thousand 6512276 thousand or one eight hundred two four to Twenty Eight. Twenty eight one eight hundred two four to Twenty Eight Twenty Eight. We only have Ralph rapson for the next five minutes or so. So under actually squeeze as much out of you as I possibly could in that and that 25 minutes together, but we'll bring Peter into the conversation from Minneapolis. Hi Peter. Hi. I have a couple of suspicions. Maybe I'm wrong on this. It seems to me that the Architects often designed buildings to further their own careers with the client's needs a distant second. I'm thinking of possibly the Weitzman museum at the University and the Carlson School of Management and zap. You don't like the way they look. Or feel well. I'm in the Carlson school and I hear a lot of comments about shortcomings in the building and I experienced some myself just tough to work in tough to be in for you some aspects of it. Yes, and it seems It's a suspicion maybe I'm totally wrong. But I guess this idea that the architect was there too. Well, as I said to further his own career to make a splash of both the Weitzman in the Carlson are splashy buildings. I don't know about the whites win, but in the Carlson School, the offices are touch cramped some of the classrooms aren't designed for the the electronics and the front boards aren't properly designed their number of other shortcomings overall. It's a great building, but there are also plenty of things that should have been looked into that weren't looking. Do and along these lines kind of a related question. How come the U of M Architects are I don't hear about their proposals as much as I think I should we brought in Foreigners for both The Carlson and the Weitzman. Is that true Miss Robson? Well, first of all, I think you raise a very interesting and provocative question certainly in the design of any building. There is the genius or lack of Genius of any any of the designer, but by and large any architect or any building of significance that I can think of we're not done with that kind of ego trip in mind, I think great architecture Sydney significant architecture is a result of carefully really carefully analyzing studying and understanding all of the needs and aspirations of the people who are to use the building so that but it all becomes a very much of a balanced one has to one has to respond to all of the physical and user requirements. You must respond to the ecology and it must be historical continuity if you will and but York Eating space and how people utilize it it it certainly is not should not be an ego trip. Now you're both teach and and and I would suspect that their architecture students who are really really into these great ideas of architect. I can do all this neat stuff and I can build this neat stuff and and it you know, it furthers the concept of modernism or whatever and and they never actually had to live in a house that has been poorly designed or had to live in a city and you know an actual big city those Federal lived in was poorly designed. That's right. That's right. And one thing I would like to say in response to this question is that for example, the cramped office has those are decisions made by the client Architects are given what's called a program which specifies how big the office is can be. So in this case the University made that decision not the architect as well the University of decides what technology they're going to pay for to go in the classroom. So there's a tendency to blame the architect for Just about everything when in fact, there are many people that make decisions about buildings. Okay, but when you mr. Ralston when you talk to students, do you say people you've got a design for the people who are going to be absolutely absolutely that's a that's a very critical thing. It's you know, the yardstick is man that you start with it you end with it, but let me just make one comment about Peter mentioned the weizmann the university had a gallery has a had a gallery program for many years it languished up in the attics of the of the Northrop Auditorium people hardly knew there was a gallery program when they when it came time to build a building. They this building did exactly what was necessary and put the if they had just done a good quiet contemporary or even traditional building. It would not have done what I'm not necessarily designed are defending the design which I think is both good and maybe suspect in Parts, but it really put the University of Minnesota gallery on record and people know that there is a gallery now and it has created quite a stir and it has really generated much interest in their program and the activity. I think it also functions very well. I think it's a very good Museum one more question actually two more questions. Did you know Arthur Miller when you're at the University of Michigan? Pardon me did you know Arthur Miller when you are at the University of Michigan Miller know the playwright? Okay, we're contemporary at the end of that time and Michael Graves Michael. Yes. I taught one period of time Is considering going to Princeton and I wonder if you like his stuff like the big teapot on the billboard Downtown Minneapolis. I think some of his things are very very good other things. I think are are overdone perhaps and maybe a too much of a conglomerate of images, but he's a talented man. Thank you very much for your time. You've got to go and this is midday on Minnesota Public Radio continue our conversation with Tom Fisher staying with us the current dean of the University of Minnesota College of architecture Ralph rapson, the internationally known modernist architect and designer is being feted this weekend. He is the subject of a new book called Ralph rapson 60 years of modern design. That's also a celebration happening today are actually opening tomorrow at the Minneapolis Institute of Arts and the weizmann museum at the University of Minnesota. This is actually the first joint venture of the to museums. So they're opening events Saturday night and panel discussions. Passion Sunday afternoon at the Museum's and again, there's a big new book by the same title Ralph rapson 60 years of modern design and again go to our website if you want to see some of wraps and stuff. Www dot MPR dot-org. I'm Lorna Benson on Mondays all things can put a century series on all things considered weekdays at 3:00 on Minnesota Public Radio KN o WF M 91.1 in the Twin Cities. It's midday on Minnesota Public Radio. Let's check in with Greta Cunningham for the latest news Greta. Thanks John. Good morning, the Whittier Community Center last night and passed a group protesting his budget cuts for Arts funding Ventura. Spokesman. John Woodley says, they consider the pie throwing incident and assault committees in the Minnesota House and Senate has voted to delay taking any action on automatic teller machine surcharges Credit Union support Banning ATM charges while Banks and retailers opposed the move. The issue is dead for this legislative session legislature is expected to hold hearings on the issue this summer a forecast for Minnesota today calls for Sunshine. Statewide with high temperatures near 55 in the north to 60 in the South it will be windy today in Western Minnesota around the region at this hour. Mostly sunny skies reported Rochester report sunshine and 41 sunny and Duluth and 43 sunny and Fargo and 43 and in the Twin Cities at this hour Sunshine a temperature of 47 John. That's a look at the latest news. Thanks very much Greta Cunningham 26 minutes before 11 o'clock Minnesota public radio's Main Street radio coverage of rural issues is supported by the blandin foundation committed to strengthening rural communities through the community leadership program. It's midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm John Ray be in for Gary. Eichten. Tom Fisher is with us. He is the current dean of the University of Minnesota College of architecture. It was editor of progressive architecture magazine and we are talking about the Twin Cities for the next 20 minutes or so, six five. One two, two seven six thousand the Twin Cities and also Ralph rapson has influence on them and an architecture and design in general. For to 2828 our toll-free line 1-800-222-8477 about architecture about design about Ralph rapson. One thing we didn't get to in talking with. Mr. Rapson was the Cedar Riverside project the buildings and didn't Mary Tyler Moore live in those for a few seasons beats me never watch that programme. Heresy, I guess yeah, especially in this town, but they are there the buildings down there at my feeder and know them well and ninety-four thousand people drive by those every day. What do you think? Well, I think they were reflection of a time. When as Ralph was saying we saw architecture as part of rebuilding our cities and in some sense trying to mix in comes those that development was planned to have everything from subsidized housing to high-end wealthy housing and the idea of it being high density so that we could have more efficient Transportation Systems people could walk to the campus and on Raleigh's we're going to be in there on and on and it was a sort of utopian idea. I think that you know, the problem with architecture is it lasts a long time even after the ideas that spawned it have gone out of fashion and I think that notion of the 60s of a kind of new city is we're much more skeptical about that now, but of course were we still have the remnants of it in Cedar Riverside? I do think I was talking to one of my graduate students who lives there said that it's actually a very good place for students particularly foreign students who come to the university because they're used to living in Higher density cities and frequently don't even feel comfortable in our single family housing sprawl and and rather like the convenience and the density of Cedar Riverside. If you are not a fan of Cedar Riverside, perhaps you should be glad then that the entire plan was never built. It was supposed to be much much larger like three or four times bigger than his now, right? If you are a fan I'd be interested in a call from you. I'm telling us why you like it six five one two, two seven six thousand or one eight hundred two four to Twenty Eight Twenty Eight Is there Tom Fisher a certain not a class of people but a type of person let's say yuppies or seniors or you know, middle-class families or rich or poor who are best suited for high-rise apartment buildings. Well, I think that it's important that we offer people choice and I think there are times in people's lives when high-rise living is is actually preferable and I know that when people have their children groaning, Moved out of the house many people. In fact would prefer to live in housing that they had lower maintenance for example, so, I think that one of the problems is that in fact, we don't provide enough housing choices for people. I think that we have too much of a dependence on the single family house in this region, and I think in fact that a lot of it is built around an assumption that there's a, you know, a husband and wife and 2.5 kids. And in fact that kind of model the family has become the minority that there's a greater diversity of family types and thus I think we need to have a greater diversity of housing types. Let's go to Jim and st. Paul. Hi Jim. Good morning. Thanks for holding on for so long. You're welcome. I have fond memories of dining at the University of Minnesota about 33 years ago at a building known as the court should tell Co-op dining club. It's at on 13th Avenue at Fifth Street in Dinkytown it was designed by mr. Wraps and I believe only lasted 10 years I think and now it's it was replaced by a high-rise apartment building called The Chateau now, why did you like that the particular building just I was right. It was like I said, I have fond memories. It was a good Gathering Place, but because of the way it was designed or just because you got together there. It was in part the design and I guess the fact that it was a gathering place for people to eat and visit. I had a TV room in the basement and I was sad to see it was torn down. I was wondering what your dealer you remember that building. I've only been in the Twin Cities for three years. So I have no memory of and me just I'm just five years here. So and I think how'd you know is a rapson building? Well it is that well-known. I think it was it it was it had designed similar to the way they got 3 was designed. Do you have any of the reservations about Architects and course? It's okay if you do but that our previous caller did without sometimes, you know, they're not they're not paying as close enough attention to the people as they should hmm. I guess I have no strong feelings one way or the other. I think he may also designed the building that sits just one block to the South right? It's now a library. Yeah, it was a credit union right is very well known it's quite elegant. So time Fisher how many wraps and buildings are there? Oh twins Mill I Ralph would be the one to answer that there are many and he's clearly left his mark from you know, Cedar Riverside in the rarick center on campus to a number of houses around the city not only large houses like the pilbara Pillsbury house, but a number of really beautiful smaller houses in University Grove and just outside of Paul yeah, Falcon Heights Falcon Heights ran our phone numbers to get involved in this conversation, six five. One two, two seven six thousand 6512276 thousand in the Twin Cities or 1-800 to four to Twenty Eight. Twenty eight hundred 242. 2828. And again, there are Ralph rapson designs on our website at www.mptv.org. Let's talk a little bit about the city of cities of Minneapolis. And st. Paul. Have you seen Larry Moe? Let's book lost Twin Cities. Yes, and when you came here and you saw that book and you realized the magnitude of what we have lost in the Twin Cities, what did you think? Well, it's always sad because I think that it's a waste of resources. I mean, I think that the problem in the cities as we have a lot of empty land that we don't build on and instead we tear down buildings that are still perfectly good. I think the cities though differ. I think st. Paul has tended to have a somewhat greater respect for its past then Downtown Minneapolis, which seems to have an image of itself as always wanting to build a new And I think that generally cities are the best cities the ones that we will travel to in Europe for example to see our cities that mix new and old much more effectively than we do. So you're saying here may be that if you had a certain Block in the city that might possibly be across the street from City Center and it was supposed to be an entertainment block that maybe in Europe. They wouldn't move a theater away from an entertainment black just because it was a historic theater, but you know, maybe right absolutely I mean I would have much preferred to have seen the money put into the move to actually been put into the theater and leave it there architect. Well Architects can easily have designed around that they could have how how would you how would you envision a one of the things I find that's interesting here is that there's this idea that to do any kind of development. You have to have a completely cleared block and other cities from Boston to San Francisco have learned that you can do very good buildings woven in among existing buildings. And I think actually our community doesn't give designers enough. It for their abilities to work around existing structures. So what do you do? Who then how do you make sure that happens? Let's put it that way. I think that unfortunately design expertise Architects planners what have you are not involved early enough in the discussions about ways we develop our cities and so people make decisions in this case about moving a theater. I think without always asking the design Community. What is really possible here? And I think if they did they'd realize that there are many more options than many people think are possible. There's another question. I want to ask the old Federal Reserve building the yeah, the suspended buildings under Perkins building. Yeah, the black monolith had some asbestos problems has some Estes bestest problems. Fortunately, there's heated parking underneath. So there's still using that the it has this Plaza in front. That is a big Plaza. You might think it's ugly but it's a big closet that's integral to the design of the building and there was some talk. I don't know where it stands right now about since I think well, they're going to put some dirt in there. They're going to build up an earth berm that would totally according to the ark the architect destroy the Integrity of that building and Burke hurts himself has said you should either shroud that building like wrap it up or destroy it before you do something like put an earth berm there what's going on with that? Why why would they even consider dumping dirt in front of a building? Because they don't like, you know, the plaza. Well, I think the plaza is very abstract and Somewhat Windswept and I think that it's very elegant and Gunner of course is very opinionated architect and I can absolutely see him saying something like tear it down rather than change it but the reality is is that buildings do change and I think that I personally would rather see us try to save that building even if it means making some alterations than to lose it right? I'm sorry. We're a proponent of the earth berm. Well, I think that there's some Merit to softening that Plaza little bit putting some trees. I mean it is it's pretty Stark. And again, I think it was a reflection of a kind of abstract idea of modernism that existed in the 60s and early 70s that we're less inclined to like now, right but in 50 years, aren't we going to say Jesus? We had this beautiful example of this particular type of architecture and we just throw it away. Well, you can take the Earth back off again. Let's go to the phones Peters on the line for Minneapolis. Hi Peter. I regret that last point. I one of the things I've noticed in Minneapolis are the areas where the modern architecture looks best is where it's surrounded or embedded in in older even 19th century architecture. It's sort of like a Counterpoint or even sort of opposite opposite. That is transparent. If you're on the south side of Nicollet Mall, you have some older buildings the Presbyterian Church glass buildings fit in a little better there the IDS when you look out at you see Dayton's through the atrium across the street we get down around the Federal Reserve. It's completely empty around there and there's nothing to set it off. I think that Plaza in front of the Federal Reserve will look a lot better if there were some 10 story brick building surrounding it. Hmm. Well, I agree. I think that one of the aspects of modernism that is good is that in fact, sometimes it would build really Structures, I mean I think IDs for example is a great building. I think the problem comes when modern is tried to design whole cities and it's when you get an entire city of glass box buildings, as some people might say is when you get that loss of that sort of diversity and richness that you were talking about. So I think frequently modern buildings Place carefully in existing cities can be wonderful and in fact in Rich the environment are their cities that retain much stronger control over the design and let's set aside historic questions and I grew up on Mackinac Island and then the board there keeps very careful control over how things look what is so incredibly historic that they have much more power because of you know, Federal rules and like that but but can the modern city with a great mix of styles and new and old buildings many of which are not necessarily protected. Can they exert more control? Oh, absolutely. I think it's very common in Europe and it's also common in cities like Boston and San That are not even necessarily historic but these are cities that have a greater confidence than cities that allow so much demolition cities lost their confidence after World War II felt that somehow the suburbs were going to replace them and actually began to turn themselves into suburbs began to tear things down began to build and close malls in the center of cities and that was a huge mistake cities need to have the confidence that they are destinations worth coming to they need to be more urban not less Urban and part of that is is retaining a mixture of new and old buildings and it's simply a matter of leadership and kind of political will but companies can say, okay you don't let me build the building. I want in Downtown Minneapolis. I'll go somewhere else. I'll go to one of the suburbs and that's exactly what the city should say is fine. You go to the suburbs and you'll find that your what you're missing is the marketplace here is the intensity here cities have lost their confidence that by saying that people would would somehow call their Bluff. I mean, I think the issue is It's how we see cities and I think we have lost this view which actually is I think only since post-world War II that this has happened we've lost our confidence that cities are powerful places that people want to be in. Let's go to Dave and Minneapolis. Hi Dave. Hi. And as far as you're talking here about a difference between building Architects structural Architects and Landscape Architects exactly. I'm coming from landscape architect aspect. I am landscape architect. I guess my question is is there a way that we can kind of mesh the to kind of get at the form and function of both that work best for everybody? Well, I think that I'll make the question up here. Yeah. I mean, I think that that's you know an admirable goal that I suspect virtually every architect would like to meet I think the problem we find and you see this in the housing that's being built at the edge of the city is we're building such large structures on smaller and smaller pieces of land as land values go up and I think as well there's a tendency for buildings to be completely air-conditioned and controlled and and look inward in a way and I think that all of that is a is a loss to the quality of the environment. So I agree with you. I think that again ideally the landscape architect would be involved at the very beginning of a project rather than being broadly in after the design has been done. So you could achieve that kind of integration and it's the kind of thing. We're actually trying to do in our College. We have both a landscape architecture Department as well as an architecture department, and we've been doing more and more to have the students. Do some joint Studios to to try and Foster that that kind of relationship you're dean of both. Right right. Now, we just shorten your title to dean of the School of Architecture, but actually School of Architecture and Landscape a landscape architecture techniques, right? So, how do you get them together? Are you having problems are they are do they talk to each other? Absolutely. I mean, they're different traditions and and you know not to sort of downplay those differences but still I think that part of this gets back to what I was saying earlier is that design is most successful when it's brought very early on so that people can think about what are the possibilities too often clients make decisions without that design input and in fact will sometimes and sometimes very often make bad decisions and there are things that design can do that can help resolve things that frequently clients don't think our resolvable. So the sooner that Architects Landscape Architects, the engineers are all brought in often the better. The project is Joanne from Minneapolis has a great question. Thanks for bringing this up Joy. Go ahead my questions about the downtown Minneapolis Public Library. I remember as a very young child when the old library was torn down and even even as a little kid. I thought it was a horrible thing to do and I loved the building and now I hear that Minneapolis needs to enlarge or expand or do something, you know need it needs a new and more modern library and I'm wondering if either of you know anything about what is planned with that is the current Library going to be demolished happens to be a building I hate so I don't know if it has architectural value or not, but I'm just curious if what's you know, if we're going to follow the Minneapolis pattern of the strip it down and build something new or if we're going to I don't know maintain any value that's there or do something that seems a little more reasonable like what I don't know. I don't know one of the things I thought it was, I believe it's the old Federal Reserve building stunning building problematic building. Could it be Into a library. Yeah. I have no idea what the library's intending. I not a particular fan of the existing building either and yet on the other hand it is a perfectly good building and it seems to me that even if it isn't a library it's a kind of Shame and a waste of resources to tear it down. So I think that again we need to increasingly think about how we can use the resources that we've already put into structures in new ways. Well, let's see if Gene has some ideas about the library hygiene Hey Dean, I wanted to get your criticism of the building itself has a library if you use it as a library. Well, I live in st. Paul. So I tend to use the old Downtown Library St. Paul rather than the newer one in Minneapolis. So I've only been in it a few times. I think that it's a fairly efficient building was built at a time when efficiency was given a sort of highest priority on the part of clients. And so basically it's a big box full of books. I think the problem with it is that there aren't any of the kind of grand space. That we have built as libraries for centuries and I think is as far as that goes. It actually has less Pleasant. I mean it's kind of place you sort of get a book and you want to leave rather than a place that you want to linger and sit and read in so not that it couldn't happen even within that structure. I think things could be done to that existing building that would make it that way we have about a minute left. I'm going to toss your curveball. We want to talk about design to Eames Frank Lloyd Wright Ralph rapson designed furniture designed everyday objects. So does Michael Graves? Do you have one or two personal effects that you really just love to use because they're so well designed their elegant. They're beautiful. Well, let's see. I have a mission rocker by Stickley and my living room that I love because it is so solid. So we'll build you can you can stand on it? You can sort of do anything with that and comfortable. Absolutely and I think that one of the great things about Ralph's career is that he did everything from Flatware to Furniture to the inside of trains two buildings two cities and I think that part of what we're trying to do the university is to realize that design is interdisciplinary activity and design thinking occurs at all of these scales. And in fact some effects all of the things we do in our daily life. And so I think he is a good representation of that tradition and something we're trying to recapture at the University. Thanks very much for coming and good to meet you. Tom Fisher's the current dean of the University of Minnesota College of architecture and Landscape architecture earlier in the hour Ralph rapson, the internationally known modernist architecture architect and designer joined us Ralph rapson, 60 years of modern design opens tomorrow with the Minneapolis Institute of Arts and the wisemen museum at the University of Minnesota opening events Saturday night and panel discussion Sunday afternoon at the Museum's and there's a big new book by the same title Ralph rapson 60 years of modern design published by the afternoon Historical Society press Coming up a review of Matt Groening Futurama. This is fresh air.