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MARK STEIL: Mainstreet Radio's coverage of rural issues is supported by the Blandin Foundation, committed to strengthening communities through grant-making, leadership training, and convening.

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Good afternoon, and welcome to this special Mainstreet Radio Midday from Thief River Falls in Northwest, Minnesota. I'm Mark Steil. There's a side to farm economic problems which most people never see, never encounter.

Financial problems cause stress, and that can lead to depression or other mental health problems. Most farmers tend to be stoic, reluctant to talk about their personal problems. Their natural isolation also tends to enhance that.

With us today are a couple of people who've been through this side of farming. We're just going to use their first names by request. Rick and Kay are with us and also Winnie Stoltman, who is a counselor with the Disaster Response Network based here or rather based in East Grand Forks. Good morning, everyone.

WINNIE STOLTMAN: Good morning.

MARK STEIL: Make that good afternoon. Winnie, if I could start with you. During times like we're going through right now, is there a sharp increase in the number of farmers that you see that have mental health issues to deal with?

WINNIE STOLTMAN: As far as comparing is there a sharp increase, I don't know if I have anything to compare that with. What I will say is that those of us in mental health have many, many people that we're seeing in the country. When we talk to one another, we are just almost overloaded.

On a daily basis, we see four or five people just drive from one country or one farmyard to another to help people as much as we can. So I would say, yes, there is an increase. There is a definite need out there.

MARK STEIL: How do you come in contact with people who need your assistance? Do they call you or is it some other method?

WINNIE STOLTMAN: My referrals right now come through Real Life Outreach. The outreach workers are here today with us and they make the initial contacts that come through, and their contacts come through various sources. And then if they see a need for me to come out and visit, or if it would be helpful, then they refer the farm family to me.

MARK STEIL: Is it difficult that first contact that you make with the farm family?

WINNIE STOLTMAN: I haven't found it to be so. No.

MARK STEIL: What do you do? How do you handle that, typically?

WINNIE STOLTMAN: Sometimes I'll call and see what their schedule is, introduce myself and call them. Or there are times when I'll just come knocking at the door, and it's surprising how welcome I am.

MARK STEIL: Are they usually eager to talk once you get started?

WINNIE STOLTMAN: Once we get started, right?

MARK STEIL: Break the ice.

WINNIE STOLTMAN: Takes a little bit of coffee drinking and small talk. But, yeah, there is a need for help, and I think that there may be somewhat of a myth to that of the isolated farmer. Yes, we need to reach out, but also I think they're looking for us to.

MARK STEIL: You're listening to a special Mainstreet Radio Midday. We're in Thief River Falls. If you have a question or comment, call us at 1-800-537-5252.

We also invite you to visit the Minnesota Public Radio Mainstreet Radio website. Go to www.mpr.org and click on Mainstreet. You can hear Mainstreet reports there, as well as this program live on the internet. And if you want to go back and listen again or whatever, you can go to the Mainstreet website and hear the program at that time.

With us is a farmer from Northwest Minnesota, Rick. And Rick has experienced some of the-- I guess every farmer has experienced the stressful side of agriculture, but tell me about your experience with stress, with dealing with that mental side of agriculture. Was it something that weighed you down and disrupted the normal day-to-day operation of the farm.

RICK: Well, I tried to do too many things, get different jobs to, help things go. And there was times where it just fell apart, where something would happen where it would get you down.

And I guess the marriage started falling apart and I did things to try to take care of that, and that didn't work. Ended up getting divorced over it. And just little things that happen that get you down and you think you're going to help later and they don't.

MARK STEIL: What sorts of things would get you down or can you remember an example, an incident?

RICK: Like, I was in the dairy business, and I lived a mile and a half from where I had my dairy herd. And I travel to go check on cattle in the middle of the night for calving purposes and nothing would happen. I'd get up in the morning and go back and the cow would end up calving and the calf would be dead. Things like that would get me down

MARK STEIL: Is it a matter of blaming yourself that you weren't able to do all things?

RICK: Right, right And then plus I was working another job, too. I just had too many things going on and wasn't getting enough sleep. And I blame little things like that.

MARK STEIL: What would happen next, I mean, after you got down or after something happened that got you into this down mood? What kind of person were you then? What sorts of things did you do?

RICK: Well, I was just take things out on the kids and the wife. It just was hard on the family. I wasn't home. I didn't like to do things. I'd get home I was tired, and I just take it out on them.

MARK STEIL: Winnie, in your role as a counselor, do you see that quite a bit, I mean, a blaming side, a guilt side that things aren't going better?

WINNIE STOLTMAN: Just now the scenario that Rick described is very common in families in the rural areas with what we're going throughout there. The lack of communication often that can start taking place between husband and wife and the tension that goes then further on spreads onto the children.

And some of that self-blaming that Rick talked about now that also can spread out to possibly blaming spouses. And so, yeah, the way Rick explained it, there are families out there that are experiencing similar, just the dynamics.

MARK STEIL: As a counselor, I mean, do you approach that talking to the whole family then, or do you break it down and talk to one person at a time? Or how do you deal with that?

WINNIE STOLTMAN: What I heard Rick saying, too, was that without help coming in from the outside, let's say, and breaking some of those patterns and helping-- possibly the inability to talk to one another when stress is so high in the family, to have another person come in, a mental health professional and be a supportive presence there.

Make weekly visits to come in and do the kitchen table conversation. And, yes, at times the family together, sometimes separately, whatever helps, whatever helps break that continual tension and stress that's taking place.

MARK STEIL: If you have a question or comment for us, our phone number, 1-800-537-5252, 1-800-537-5252.

Kay, you also with your husband farm here in Northwest Minnesota. Stress is always a part of, I guess, any occupation, but there are definitely times, I suppose, when it gets much worse, worse than others. What sorts of stressful things have gone on in your family and your experience?

KAY: Well, we have two sons that are trying to farm with us. One probably will not. He's decided that he can find other things off the farm. A matter of not being able to pay the bills is very stressful.

There's been a couple of heart attacks that my husband has had. And we continue to farm. We'll farm again this year, but we're thinking about getting out just to save what we have. And he's not sure what he's going to do if he does quit farming. It's all he's done all his life.

So that's stressful to think about whether we're going to keep the farm going, whether one son's going to want to keep going. If the prices don't come up, that's probably not going to happen.

MARK STEIL: You're listening to a special Mainstreet Radio Midday from Thief River Falls. We invite you to call in at 1-800-537-5252. And we have a caller from Morris. Dan is with us. Good afternoon, Dan.

AUDIENCE: Yes, good afternoon. Yes, I've been listening to your program, and I'm a farm business management instructor here in the Morris area, part of the program out of Ridgewater College at Wilmer.

And just wanted to pass on with the stresses that are out there and going on that Ridgewater College has added a mental health component as an integral part of the farm management program in West Central Minnesota, and part of the program is statewide.

So I just wanted to pass on that has become-- as much as a finances as we work with finances, with producers, that the mental health component has to be an integral part of their overall direction.

MARK STEIL: Thanks for the comment. Winnie Stoltman as a counselor with the Disaster Response Network out of East Grand Forks, are there enough resources out there? Do you feel you have enough people to deal with the situations you need to deal with?

WINNIE STOLTMAN: I think one of the positives is, if there can be a positive, to the 1980 farm crisis was that that was the beginning of realizing that we need mental health support out here, we need outreach workers.

And Real Life Outreach has been out and about in Northwestern Minnesota since then. So they're a well put together program. And as this farm crisis grows and becomes larger, more agencies are beginning to become part of it. There is a good network out in our area.

MARK STEIL: Rick, as a farmer, I mean, there are multiple stresses there. But at the heart of it, was it the economic situation you think that dealt you the severest blow as far as dealing with stress and that sort of thing, or was it another factor?

RICK: That was mainly that.

MARK STEIL: Well, you told me that recently there's been a change which is going to affect your farming operation and also has picked up your spirits quite a bit. What's that?

RICK: Oh, I've been getting into this organic farm the last couple of years, and that's really taken some stress off me as far as trying to pay bills and things like that. It's what the economy wants right now. I was at some conferences last week in St. Cloud, and I'll tell you I really got-- I come out of there upbeat.

MARK STEIL: Winnie, how do you handle that as a counselor if maybe they-- or does this happen where they're telling you maybe that they're reconsidering the whole farming operation? And what do you think about this or that? Do you ever find yourself being asked for your opinion on an economic question, really, which is kind of outside your area?

WINNIE STOLTMAN: One of the positives of the program that has been set up in this Northwestern area is that we have different branches of expertise. And while we work together and draw on one another, we are very good at referral.

And to bring in someone that works in that area to give-- I don't know if we really try to stay out of giving advice as such, but we can certainly maybe read the picture with them. What does this look like?

Just be there with the farmer to hash out what the possibilities are. And just that process can help the farmers see positive and negatives. And so it's kind of an open-ended thing.

MARK STEIL: What kind of response do you hear after-- maybe you visited someone several times and they probably don't need the week-to-week counseling anymore. They've reached a point that things have changed a little bit. Are they generally happy they went through with the counseling? What kind of response do you get when it's kind of all said and done?

WINNIE STOLTMAN: When we have our monthly meetings at Real Life Outreach, it's one of the parts of the day where thank you notes are passed around of farmers thanking Real Life Outreach, Northwestern Minnesota Mental Health for their presence in this intense time that they've just been through or are going through but are beginning to see the light.

And so many of these farmers that are still working this through, it's not something that comes and goes real quickly, but it's help. It's help that's there willing to come into your home, seeing you through the roughest times, being there with you, finding resources.

And then as things slowly start unraveling, let's say, then there's this sense of, well, I'm better now. I can start seeing some light in this, whether it's continue farming or get out or whatever, find a job, find some resources. It's that supportive presence that we're offering that it has to be positive because it's really does have such a helpful way of working with the farmers.

MARK STEIL: We have another caller on the line. Patricia is calling from Saint Paul. Good afternoon, Patricia.

AUDIENCE: Hi. What is really important-- maybe about 13 years ago, my daughter was working at the Capitol when they had groundswell. And it would be very-- like for some of the things that they had to go through, if they could maybe contact some people that worked with groundswell so they could be like mentors to relieve some of the pressure.

MARK STEIL: That's a good comment. Rick, did you talk to other farmers about dealing with stress and economic problems and all that sort of thing, or was it something that you kept to yourself?

RICK: I just kind of kept it to myself. I was getting so bad there. I contacted somebody and he come over and visited. And there were times he'd come and I'd say things were OK, they were just fine. And he knew they weren't, and he just kept coming back. I guess the person just hides it. They don't want people to know. You try to put on a big act.

MARK STEIL: Can you tell us what were some of those signs, I mean, that you recognized in yourself that said to you, I've got to reach out and contact someone.

RICK: I was down so bad there, and I went and got help. And then as far as the marriage is falling apart and things like that, I just had to do something.

MARK STEIL: OK, the future, where do you think you'll be in a year, two years? Still in farming?

RICK: I believe so. I think they're talking about small farms and getting back to the small farming, and I think this is where this organic farming is going to come in.

MARK STEIL: OK, well, I want to thank you for being with us. I know you have another appointment to make, but I appreciate you dropping by and sharing some of those insights with us.

RICK: Thank you.

MARK STEIL: Sure. This is a time of the year, this getting on toward spring when farmers are dealing with their finances and looking ahead to spring planting. Fargo-based psychologist, Val Farmer, says during poor economic times like now, producers should keep some things in mind when they look for a way to survive.

VAL FARMER: During February and March, many farm and ranch families will be coming to terms with the reality of facing another season with great anxiety and uncertainty. This is not the time for wishful thinking or for avoiding bills, budgets, or the lender. The thing that farmers and ranchers do best is troubleshooting and problem-solving.

With the day-to-day challenges of production agriculture, a farmer/rancher has no equal. It is when they have to deal with the gloomy reality of markets, high operating expenses, and rapidly escalating debt that they may become paralyzed into inaction.

The commitments, goals, and emotions that underpin rural life run deep. Emotion interferes with rational thinking. The situation may call for radical changes, changes that one does not want to make.

There are four things that couples need to make it through a financial crisis-- love, faith, flexibility, and communication. Someday you'll look back and be grateful for those days when you pulled together as a couple. It will strengthen your bond.

MARK STEIL: Some comments from psychologist Val Farmer. You're listening to a special Mainstreet Radio Midday. We're in Thief River Falls in Northwest Minnesota. If you have a question or comment for us, call us at 1-800-537-5252, 1-800-537-5252.

With us are Winnie Stoltman, who is a counselor with the Disaster Response Network based in Thief River Falls. And we're talking today a little bit about how economic conditions like we're in now, a farm crisis really affects farmers' ability to deal with stress and other mental health issues. And Winnie is here with us and also Kay is here with us who with her husband farms in Northwest Minnesota.

Kay, we heard Val Farmer say that there are things that are important to do during times of economic stress, really. We're in those times now, and they produce some, some stressful conditions. Are there times when you think you see the light at the end of the tunnel or has that moment not yet come yet?

KAY: Yeah, we're seeing the light at the end of the tunnel. We've been going through the farm wrap program and we're fortunate. We still have a lot of assets out there that we were able to put into play.

We're doing a restructure and everybody will get paid this spring. But our commitment to each other I think has been really important. When I'm down, he picks me up. And when he's down, I pick him up.

MARK STEIL: How do you do that? Is it with a joke or just--

KAY: A hug mostly. It's going to work out. We're going to do OK. If we quit farming, we'll find something else to do. We've been best friends since the day we got married, and a lot of our neighbors have left their farmer husbands. And it's hard for us because they're our friends. And I don't know why we've been able to keep it together. I guess a lot of respect and love for each other.

MARK STEIL: You see the friends and neighbors, though, who, as you say, maybe are divorcing, leaving the land, that sort of thing pretty common in your part of the state.

KAY: Very common. They just give up. They don't see any light at the end of the tunnel. The wives can't take the stress of having no money. A lot of them are working, but they're helping to pay some farm bills, too. And there's nothing out there to go buy new clothes or sometimes even to buy groceries.

Farmers are getting food from the food shelves. That's very stressful because farmers are very proud people. We work hard and we only want to receive a fair price for our goods so that we can make a living.

MARK STEIL: If you have a question or comment, our phone number 1-800-537-5252. Bob from Sturgeon Lake is with us. Good afternoon, Bob.

BOB: Good afternoon. Well, it's axiomatic that the cause for most stresses are economic. And because we are so independent, that we take the blame on ourselves. That's absolutely wrong. Hello?

MARK STEIL: Keep going. You're with us.

BOB: OK, yeah, I didn't hear any response. So if ever there was a time to organize and to pull together as farmers, it is now. Fair price for goods, of course. Other labor groups unionize. We not only control the labor, but also the goods and the production capacity.

MARK STEIL: Bob--

BOB: That's what's needed. Direct the frustration not at yourself, but at the cause, which is economic.

MARK STEIL: Bob, you're a farmer yourself?

BOB: Mm-hmm.

MARK STEIL: Do you see any movement toward that of farmers uniting and looking at the economic causes instead of laying the blame for themselves?

BOB: Well, not enough. There's a strong tendency to blame yourself, and that's just wrong. Do I see that trend? No, unfortunately. One of your previous guest said he was getting involved with the organic farming groups. That's the direction we need to go. It seemed to be working for him. And in a broader sense, again, organize.

MARK STEIL: OK, well, thanks for that comment. You're listening to a special Mainstreet Radio Midday from Thief River Falls. We'll be back in just a moment with our guests. But first, a look at the latest news and weather from the MPR newsroom.

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SPEAKER: Minnesota Public Radio provides a unique service that you can't get anywhere else. Not only does it provide you with in-depth news and information, it's an independent service paid for by voluntary support from listeners. The strength of Minnesota Public Radio is the strength of its members.

Join this powerful group of people who believe in radio that matters. Send in your membership today or call us right now. The number is 1-800-227-2811. Thank you.

JOHN RABE: Good afternoon. It's 12:31 with news from Minnesota Public Radio. I'm John Rabe. According to the official Iraqi news agency, Western warplanes attacked Baghdad today, killing one person and wounding others. However, the Pentagon reported US planes had attacked in Southern Iraq and did not mention any strike in the capital.

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright is warning the Serbs that they're not free of a NATO bombing threat. She told the Senate Foreign Relations Committee she fears the Serbs are planning a spring offensive against ethnic Albanians. And Albright warns that would be a grave mistake.

The Secretary of State also stressed the need for US participation in any peacekeeping force. Without that, she insists, there would be zero chance that a peace plan for Kosovo could succeed.

Even as the frantic rescue effort continues in an Austrian Alpine Village following yesterday's avalanche, a new avalanche nearby buried 10 people today. It happened just outside the stricken village of Galtür.

The Austria press agency says it destroyed three houses. The death toll continues to rise from yesterday's avalanche in Western Austria, with some reports of as many as 16 dead.

Governor Ventura returned from his trip to Washington today and took on Saint Paul Mayor Norm Coleman. Ventura was on David Letterman last night and said whoever designed the streets in Saint Paul must have been drunk. He suggested it was, in his words, those Irish guys. Saint Paul Mayor Norm Coleman took offense and said the governor should watch the ethnic humor.

When he arrived at the airport, Ventura told reporters some people can't take a joke and need some lessons in humor. Ventura also called Coleman a sore loser. Coleman was one of the candidates Ventura beat in the governor's race last year.

We have cloudy skies and 30 degrees in the Twin Cities with a wind chill of 14. This afternoon, expect partly sunny skies in Minneapolis and Saint Paul, with a few flurries and a high of 35 down to 17 overnight, mostly clear. And then partly sunny Thursday, look for a high around 40.

Across the state, we'll see partial clearing in the Central and South this afternoon, with highs in the 30s. Overnight, clear to partly cloudy with lows from the single digits above 0 in the far Northeast to 20 in the far South. That's news and weather. I'm John Rabe.

MARK STEIL: MPR Mainstreet Radio coverage of rural issues is supported by the Blandin Foundation, committed to strengthening communities through grant-making, leadership training, and convening. Good afternoon, and welcome to this special Mainstreet Radio Midday from Thief River Falls in Northwest Minnesota. I'm Mark Steil.

And during this hour, we're talking about the economic stress produced by a farm crisis and how it can lead to depression or other mental health issues in farmers, and what sorts of things farmers and others can do to work with those problems.

For some farmers, the struggle of dealing with depression can lead to suicide. Darlene Muller lives in Pipestone in Southwest Minnesota, and her husband killed himself in 1985 as his farm was being foreclosed.

Darlene says one thing that happened in that situation is that there was not good communication between husband and wife about the economic condition of the farm.

In fact, she says until shortly before the suicide, she realized that there was a problem with finances, but she didn't realize that it was anywhere near foreclosure. She and her family eventually left the farm, but she says the family did stay together.

DARLENE MULLER: I think I kept going because I had my four children that I had to keep going. We were active for each members. They had taken their livestock to the fair.

The neighbors helped them get it ready to go and haul them in and that. I think I had my faith to really help me. My mother used to tell us that the good Lord never gave us any more than what him and I could handle.

Some days I wondered because I thought he had left me. But after some quiet time and some just spending time reading and spending time being out in the spring, watching the grass grow, watching the buds come, the trees, the flowers, I knew that there would be life. And I knew that for me to keep going, I had to keep going. I couldn't fall apart. It was rough, but we made it.

One way I coped is I went out and I talked to my trees. I had a little secluded area where I could go visit or sit IN the evenings, and i would literally yell, scream, complain, pray to these trees. But it helped, and that was my way of trying to cope with what we were going through.

We have to accept and we have to help these people that are there, these farmers. We have to get it across to them that it may look bleak now, but give it a few times, give it a month, give it a few a year or so and it will get better.

I think after my husband died in '85, I said by '86, '87, the crops were better, the prices for crops were better. Again, I said I often think if only he had hung on a year or two more years, we probably could have made it.

As a farm family, we may not be living in Pipestone County. We may have moved, but at least we probably would be still farming and he would still be me.

I do believe that you need to keep the lines of communication open. If you can't talk to your spouse and if you can't talk to your minister, there's got to be somebody out there that you can talk to. And don't be afraid to go get help.

MARK STEIL: With us here in Thief River falls are Winnie Stoltman, who's a counselor with the Disaster Response Network in East Grand Forks. And also joining us are Galen Sylvester, who's a Lutheran pastor here in Thief River Falls.

Winnie, I'd like to ask you about something that Darlene said in that comment. She talked about going outside and talking, yelling in the grove with the trees. It sounds like a good way to let it all out. Do you think it is?

WINNIE STOLTMAN: I think that that example of how-- I don't remember what she said her name was, maybe a name wasn't given, but to find some release for the pain that we're experiencing can make all the difference, just to find something.

And for her, it was the trees. And for those of us out here, most of us have some shelter belt or something that we can go out into. If it's what helps, it may be something else.

While we're talking about the issue of suicide, I brought a book along with me that I would like a little time to read, just an excerpt from it.

MARK STEIL: Why don't we do that right now? Go ahead.

WINNIE STOLTMAN: OK, let me read this.

MARK STEIL: Let me give the phone number, first of all, then we'll do that. If you have a question or comment, call us at 1-800-537-5252. And if you want to join us on the internet, our web address is www.mpr.org.

And click on the Mainstreet button. You can hear this program live there as well as other Mainstreet reports. The phone number again for your question or comment, 1-800-537-5252. OK, Winnie, you have a little excerpt there that you wanted to pass on to us. Why don't we do that now?

WINNIE STOLTMAN: I want to lead into this by saying that this excerpt is taken from a book entitled Suicide-- The Forever Decision. But when I read it, I thought not only could this visual image that this excerpt presents could be helpful in reconsidering suicide, but also any stressful situation that we're experiencing, if we could view it differently. Just let me read this, and then we'll see what we can do with this.

The chapter is named the bug in the cup. I want you to imagine for the moment, anyway, that for the last several weeks or months, you have been like a bug trapped in the bottom of a cup. How you will get out of the cup will be most likely a result of something you do or what someone helps you to do.

I'll just read this because it's hard for me to just pinpoint just every sentence. So the bug in the cup idea, and this is the author speaking, is not mine. I got it from another psychologist who in his lectures used to use the example of a bug trapped in a cup to illustrate a major problem we all face from time to time.

Namely, that once we are trapped in a situation, our solutions are limited by what we can see. We have walked around and around inside our cup and seeing no way out, we decide that all hope is finished and that we are forever trapped.

We climb up but slip back down. Everything we try fails. Then when we are convinced there is no possible escapes left to us, we become depressed and helpless and hopeless and sometimes suicidal.

While human beings are bigger and supposedly smarter than bugs, I am not so sure that-- when it comes to getting ourselves out of the cups we find ourselves in, we always do a better job of it. Let me continue, though, Mark, because it surprisingly, and maybe not so surprisingly, it gives the example of a farmer.

MARK STEIL: OK, let's get to that.

WINNIE STOLTMAN: Yeah. Once we are in a particular set of problems, I am not so sure all of us can think our way out of them, at least all by ourselves. In this morning's newspaper, I read an account of a farmer who had killed himself. He left a wife and family behind.

For most of his life, he had been a successful man. But now, with prices for his cattle and wheat falling, he was faced with enormous debts that he could not pay. He had inherited the farm from his father and had, we can only guess, felt that to lose the farm was to lose everything. And so in good health and still young, he killed himself.

As I read this story, I thought of the bug in the cup. I thought of this man as stuck in a situation from which he could see no escape. And when I reread the story, it was clear to me that the farmer had not talked to his wife or his friends about being trapped in a cup. Everyone was shocked at his suicide. So I conclude that those who knew and loved him could only be shocked that he had never told them of how trapped he felt.

MARK STEIL: Do you think it's true that for someone who's trapped in a cup, that communication is the single most important first step to find a way out of that cup?

WINNIE STOLTMAN: That's why I thought this was such a good excerpt to read, because it really is. It's to get out there and seek help. Any phone call, some phone call, whether it's to your pastor or whatever--

MARK STEIL: And that often can be done anonymously, I would think.

WINNIE STOLTMAN: Sure. Why not? That's the key.

MARK STEIL: We have with us also Galen Sylvester, who is a pastor here in Thief River falls, and also, I understand, at a church in the countryside nearby.

GALEN SYLVESTER: Yes. I and my wife, Marsha, we serve a church here in town in Thief River Falls and in a church in the country about 20 miles out of town.

MARK STEIL: Do you get these sort of calls from time to time, from farmers who maybe feel they don't have anywhere else to turn or are wondering what to do?

GALEN SYLVESTER: Very seldom. Our farmers, unfortunately, their fathers didn't tell them or teach them to communicate and talk very well, as most of our fathers didn't, I suppose.

But those kind of things you kind of happen upon. Perhaps as a pastor, I would say, as the spirit is leading me, I might pull in to someone's farmhouse and be surprised at the stories that I hear or be surprised when someone says, pastor, I'm glad you stopped by. And then we hear the story. And I'm so grateful, so grateful.

The earlier person mentioned the farm wrap program. And one of the good things about that farm wrap program that we have in this area is that there is one phone number to call.

MARK STEIL: Is that an acronym or is that the actual title, farm wrap?

GALEN SYLVESTER: Farm wrap is what the program is called.

MARK STEIL: Wrap, W-R-A-P.

GALEN SYLVESTER: Right.

MARK STEIL: OK.

GALEN SYLVESTER: And we have brochures. I've dropped them off at lenders. Our Real Life Outreach workers have dropped them off at farm loan officers, at implement dealers so that anybody who has an inkling that someone is having financial difficulty, you give them that brochure and say, call this number. And this process is in work. People can then come to you and contact you because you have called.

MARK STEIL: OK, if you have a question or comment for us, 1-800-537-5252 is our phone number. Tom from Minneapolis is on the line with us. Good afternoon, Tom.

AUDIENCE: Hi. I wanted to call in and mention something, which I'm not sure has come up yet. I must say, I haven't been able to hear the whole program. But I'm the executive director of the Mental Health Association of Minnesota, and I want to make sure, first of all, that your listeners are aware that the depression and anxiety that we've been hearing so much about in the last hour is primarily a medical condition.

Now, I know that life events, economic forces, family, stress, and other factors are tremendous contributing factors, and I don't want to minimize that. But I think that people need to know that depression is, in fact, treatable now with very effective medications that are much better than the medications that were on the market even a few years ago. And anxiety is also treatable.

And that one of the people that farmers and farm families should call, in addition to talking to their pastors and counselors and county extension agents and so forth, is their physician.

They should call their physician, make an appointment for a confidential visit, and ask if an antidepressant might not help because the body can only take so much. And the brain and the nervous system are part of the body, and the body fights back eventually.

And it's OK to take medications when necessary. I do it myself, and I started doing it because of marital difficulties several years ago. And I don't know where I'd be today if I hadn't done it. So I just wanted to throw in that little plug.

MARK STEIL: Tom, if you could stay with us just a moment. I have a question here--

AUDIENCE: OK.

MARK STEIL: One of the things I know I said it at the beginning of the program, and I often wonder how true it is, I said something to the effect that farmers because of their upbringing and that are more reluctant to seek mental health counseling than others.

But is that true or is it more widespread than that? Is everyone-- if we want to make a general statement, do most people, farm, urban, wherever, find it difficult to ask for mental health help?

AUDIENCE: Oh, yes. I think that's definitely true. I'm a city slicker myself, and I always have been. But I can tell you that there are plenty of people in the Twin Cities area who would have no compunction at all about taking a medication for diabetes or heart disease or cancer.

But the very thought of having to take a medication for neurotransmitters that affect emotions and anxiety and even thought processes is somehow foreign to people. And I must say that I don't quite understand it, but it's just a fact of life, I guess, in our society.

But I think times are changing. I think as more and more of the general public realizes that almost all mental illnesses and emotional conditions have some kind of a biochemical component, that they're beginning to realize that it stands to reason that part of the treatment really must be pharmacological, must really be drug treatment.

It's not the whole treatment. And I don't want to minimize, as I said earlier, the importance of supportive counseling, talking to a good friend, talking to your pastor or your rabbi, or other spiritual advisor.

But we need to face the fact that depression and anxiety are largely biochemical and can be treated that way. And it's a good thing. I mean, it really is good to know that, isn't it?

MARK STEIL: One other question for you, Tom. Is there an adequate safety net, let's say, of mental health clinics around the state? Are there enough of them?

AUDIENCE: No, there aren't enough. Now, I know that every county has a social service office, and I would urge people to call there for the most appropriate local services.

But there are huge gaps and some of the managed care organizations are not present in enough quantity or quality in some of the areas outside of the metro Twin Cities, Duluth, and so forth.

But the fact is you don't have to see a psychiatrist in order to have antidepressants or anti-anxiety medications, or other types of psychotropic medications. Family doctors, general practitioners, gynecologists, all those folks can do a fairly decent job of prescribing.

I'm taking Paxil myself, and my own prescriber is an internist at my health plan. In fact, the majority of antidepressants in this country are prescribed by just regular physicians. You don't have to see a specialist. It's really much easier than people might think.

MARK STEIL: Radio Midday from Thief River Falls. Winnie, you're a counselor with the Minnesota Disaster Response Network. Some thoughts on Tom's comments.

WINNIE STOLTMAN: I agree. When I go in and visit with a farmer and his wife, it is not unusual for me to suggest that they either visit their doctor. Or if they are already on medication, we have a talk about it, whether or not that could help.

And to give that consideration, just that total holistic view, the medical, the spiritual, the mental health part of it, that's all that helping factor together. So absolutely.

MARK STEIL: If you have a question or comment, our phone number is 1-800-537-5252. And Sue is with us from Saint Paul. Good afternoon, Sue.

AUDIENCE: Hello.

MARK STEIL: Good afternoon.

AUDIENCE: Good afternoon. I was wondering if someone could touch on the subject of insurance parity. Hello.

MARK STEIL: We're still with you.

AUDIENCE: Oh, OK. It seems that if you need to go into the hospital, the clock is ticking, and you have maybe 30 days within a calendar year that you can be hospitalized.

And then if you should have an episode later in the year, you need to seek counseling or some kind of therapy or, again, hospitalization. Your time has run out. And I think that there should be a parity between medical and mental health.

MARK STEIL: OK, well, Thanks for that question. Winnie, does insurance cover mental health care in this new age of managed health systems?

WINNIE STOLTMAN: Well, this isn't my area that I'm fully knowledgeable. But just since I work in the mental health field, I have heard comments and even stronger than comments that, yeah, that there is the length of time that therapy can be offered. It's quite short if the need is greater. And different insurance companies offer different packages, but--

MARK STEIL: It's something people can check on, certainly.

WINNIE STOLTMAN: Certainly check on it.

MARK STEIL: How about people who don't have medical insurance?

WINNIE STOLTMAN: That's an issue. And that's where we really get into the real life crisis. When something's got to go, insurance is probably one of the first.

MARK STEIL: I'd say with your program, is there a payment required? How is that handled?

WINNIE STOLTMAN: I think one of the reasons that a mental health counselor was put on board with Real Life Outreach and-- that connection between Northwestern Mental Health, Real Life Outreach, is that I am not fee for service. I come out when I'm called. When the people are referred, I come out. There no fee for service.

And there isn't really a length of time. If the need is there, use our judgment. And that's one of the real positives of-- and then if I find that I need to call in, do a referral or call in more help than I feel that I can provide the level of help, I have resources that I can refer to. So, yeah.

MARK STEIL: Let's take another caller. Mark is on the line. Good afternoon, Mark.

AUDIENCE: I called in just to make one very brief request. Before I do that, may I just very briefly also say please listen carefully to what Tom said about antidepressant medications and anti-anxiety medications. They can be a godsend. No, they won't do the whole thing. But, yes, they will give you a fighting chance to deal with what you're dealing with.

The reason I called in is simply to request maybe the phone numbers and addresses to contact agencies, such as farm wrap and Minnesota Disaster Response and whatever there are others. There have already been given out, and I missed them. But could you please give those out so people would know how to get in contact with this help?

MARK STEIL: Sure. Galen Sylvester, who's a Lutheran pastor in Thief River falls, has that information, I believe.

GALEN SYLVESTER: The first call number, the 1-800 number, is 1-800-543-7709. And that's our Real Life Outreach number.

AUDIENCE: OK. And that would be where to start for both farm wrap and/or Minnesota Disaster Response?

GALEN SYLVESTER: That's where to start for farm wrap.

AUDIENCE: OK.

MARK STEIL: And if we could explain again what farm wrap is, why would that be beneficial in that situation?

GALEN SYLVESTER: Well, farm wrap is just a-- yeah, it's one of the good ideas that come around, comes down the pike once in a while, but it actually wraps things together.

So if you are a farmer, farm family in crisis, which in this case would generally be financial crisis due to low commodity prices, you call that number. We can get you hooked up with a lawyer, with a CPA.

We can get you hooked up with counselors and we can also sit down at the coffee table with you and just talk with you and find out what your situation is. So it runs the gamut.

MARK STEIL: That can be done anonymously if the person doesn't want to give a name or is uncomfortable in that first phone conversation?

GALEN SYLVESTER: Anonymous to a certain point. Eventually, you need to tell us where you live so we can come out and have coffee with you. That's the invitation that we would like.

AUDIENCE: Is there a locational limit to that? Is there a geographic area within which people would need to live for that service?

GALEN SYLVESTER: Yes, there's counties. We're talking mainly here in Northwest Minnesota.

AUDIENCE: OK, are you familiar with any such other things for, say, other areas of Minnesota, or how would how would people find out about those resources?

MARK STEIL: Winnie?

WINNIE STOLTMAN: My suggestion is that contact any helping agency and--

MARK STEIL: What would an example of those be?

WINNIE STOLTMAN: Well, let's say social services would help. That probably would be about the most helpful, and--

MARK STEIL: County.

WINNIE STOLTMAN: --County Extension.

MARK STEIL: They would know what's going on in your area.

AUDIENCE: OK.

WINNIE STOLTMAN: Yeah. There are agencies that have been in place before the real life crisis. If there aren't agencies in place that are particularly just set up for that, this is one way of letting the need be known.

MARK STEIL: OK, I appreciate that.

AUDIENCE: And thank you.

MARK STEIL: Yeah, thank you for calling in. That brings this hour to a close. I want to thank Winnie Stoltman, who's a counselor with the Disaster Response Network based in East Grand Forks, and also Lutheran pastor, Galen Sylvester, who stopped by to chat.

MPR's Mainstreet Radio coverage of rural issues is supported by the Blandin Foundation, committed to strengthening communities through grant-making, leadership training, and convening.

Our Saint Paul engineer is Steve Griffith. Rick Basinski and Eric Johnson handle the technical side here in Thief River Falls. Thanks also to our Saint Paul producer, Sara Meyer and Dan Gunderson, who helped out in Thief River Falls. Rachel Reabe also helped plan and organize the broadcast, and Melanie Sommer is executive producer. Thanks for being with us. I'm Mark Steil.

LORNA BENSON: I'm Lorna Benson. Be sure to tune in for the next All Things Considered for all the day's top stories, plus insightful conversations and commentary. It's All Things Considered weekdays at 3:00 on Minnesota Public Radio KNOW-FM 91.1.

MARK STEIL: You're listening to Minnesota Public Radio. It's 29 degrees at KNOW-FM 91.1 Minneapolis Saint Paul. Twin Cities weather forecast partial clearing this afternoon, high in the mid 30s, a south to southwest wind at 10 to 20 miles an hour.