Good afternoon with news from Minnesota Public Radio on Chris Roberts. Freezing rain has made roads slick in the Thief River Falls area schools in Thief River Falls have called off classes for the day of thority say roads are also slippery in the Crookston area freezing rain has been falling there since early this morning a winter storm II in a week is moving into Northern Minnesota between 5 and 8 in of snow could fall in Northwestern Minnesota by this evening. Meanwhile thunder and lightning have been reported in Fargo where a fierce storm is bringing heavy snow today. The Red River Valley is under a blizzard warning with up to 9 inches of snow expected in the northern part of the valley and several school districts have closed.In other news the Saint Paul chamber orchestra has named Stephen cope says it's new concertmaster Cope's was hired as acting concertmaster for the current season, but the spco called off at search for other candidates yesterday copse previously worked two years has concertmaster for the Colorado Symphony Orchestra in Denver where you also co-founded a chamber music series Pope says he's been trained in chamber music since age 10 and feels well suited to lead the spco symphony orchestra. You can feel removed from a good deal of the players in the orchestra because they're just so far away. I mean just physically in this Orchestra, I can communicate with everybody that I can see and it makes the music making better coax is 27 years old in the weather a winter storm warning has been issued for Northwestern Minnesota this afternoon and a winter storm warning is in effect for extreme North Central and Northeastern Minnesota this afternoon and tonight expect accumulations up to8 in in the north by this evening and winds increasing as well. That's news. I'm Chris Roberts. NPR's Main Street radio coverage of Royal issues is supported by the blandin foundation committed to strengthening communities through grant-making leadership training and convening. Good afternoon, and welcome to the special Main Street radio show. I'm Rachel Redeemer broadcasting from Duluth on the edge of the great North Woods that once covered much of Minnesota there continues to be a great deal of debate on how to preserve and protect the force that remain an important resource in our state Our Guest today have all been active participants in that conversation. Jim Sanders is the forest supervisor for the Superior National Forest and Betsy job is the forest program director for the Minnesota State Office of the national Audubon Society there with me this afternoon at the Minnesota Public Radio Studios of wscn wcsd in Duluth Wayne brand Executive Vice President for Minnesota. Forest Industries joint is from our Saint Paul Studio. Good afternoon to all of you and welcome. Thank you for our phone lines are also open for your questions and comments. You can call us this afternoon at one 800-537-5252 537 5252 For 10 years, Minnesota has been talking about ways to improve Forest practices millions of dollars have been spent to study the situation and truckloads of reports have been generated. But let's start out with the question. Are we making any progress Betsy? He responds? Well, I guess it depends on whose opinion you take your opinion. Okay, not enough really not nearly enough. We've been doing a lot of conversation with a lot of different interest groups at the table in Minnesota. And that sounds good and indeed his progress over many places in the country where there's not that kind of talking occurring but if the real measure of success is how we made improvements on the ground in the forest. No, we haven't yet. It's been 10 years of conversations talking about improvements, but we haven't yet seen that trickle down to real change on the ground and I think in large part because we don't really see. Get a commitment from all the players to those improvements Wayne Brandt your thoughts in the past 4 years on Lower ground pressure and more environmentally sensitive logging equipment. If that's not commitment of commitment is not agencies and private landowners having a doubled the number of even-aged clear-cut stands that are no longer being traditionally clear-cut from 38% to 77% That's not progress. If the changes that have occurred in looking at ecosystems more broadly and the Landscapes more broadly and species more holistically is in progress. I'm not sure what progressives and have those things made a difference. Is there a level that we can demonstrate that it has changed for these things that will take years. Is an ongoing process in Forest management and will continue as it has I think for myself when I go out on on logging jobs and harvested sites with my members who are loggers all over the state, you see a significant amount of change whether it's redistribution of the unused material the slash around the site to provide habitat for wildlife species or if it's leaving more conclusions or a standing live and standing a dead timber for a different species. I think you see some significant changes. Jim Sanders with a Superior National Forest. Let's give you a chance to jump in on this as we move forward. We're more into the art that we are into the science. We base. Our management of Natural Resources be at the timber be at the wildlife or the habitat that we have out there on our science. But but there is no definitive answer at any one point in time and yard Becomes of how you put that scientific basis to application on the ground. in this case 70% greater than 70% of the Chippewa National Forest for example is still being managed primarily for the main goal of perpetuating a fast-growing young age tree such as Aspen to meet the needs of just a few Industries the paper and waferboard industries over 86% on the Superior National Forest Outside The Boundary Waters is managed this way as well. If you're looking at have we accomplish the goal of making our Force more diverse for the variety of plants and animals and people needs from this Force. I think the answer's still is no our phone lines are open for your questions and comments today. The number one 800-537-5252 and we have a lot of people already waiting on the phone. We will start with Clyde in Minneapolis. Good afternoon Clyde. Hello, I'd like to ask Wayne Brandt about the proposed the industry alternative for the master plan to the Chippewa on the net and the spirit animal for us understand your proposals. Double the Harvest level on the spear National Forest. I guess my concern is that that means redefining a lot of areas have been protected as part of the Timber base. It may mean making some questionable assumptions about how much yo there will be after I next wave of foreign exotic insects sweep for the Midwest and it also means the assumptions about logging practices which may not protect our rights by Parry in areas. So like I started but I'm not sure that doubling the Harvest level in the spear National Forest is really moving in the right direction. What Clyde raises an interesting question about the alternative that we through Minnesota Forest Industries have proposed on the two forests. I would not want the listeners to think that we as the industry started looking at the volumes of the analytical process that we went through to develop this alternative was to I go back and look at the best research that we were able to find on historical disturbance patterns on the two for us into them from that calculate out what that would mean give him the reserves in The Boundary Waters canoe area and the various so Federal legislation that prohibits harvesting in certain areas to then look at that and try and mimic what occurred the historically through particularly fire, but also through winthrow When Storms to mimic that with Harvest on the Superior National Forest, it does in fact A very substantial increased in the potential that acres to be harvested far less. So on the Chippewa, but when you look at the superior, I think you have to understand that in the present management plan. There's only about a third of the Superior National Forest that's even considered for management who got the bwca with over a million Acres that's off-limits and no one is suggesting that that change in any way shape or form and then you've got some for 500,000 Acres that in the previous plan. We're not to considered because of economic reasons. We think the the right way to go about the forest plan revision just to look at the ecology and to look at it a landscape and ecosystem level and not to look at it in a process of going through and Zoning. The forest that we're going to have only this you some this area only that used in that area. We think that runs contrary to what the chief of the forest service's said when it runs contrary to good resource management in the directions through Forest Resources Council and other processes that we've been heading to here in, Minnesota. Weiser the Superior National Forest which actually begins 50 miles north of us here in Duluth runs up to the Canadian border almost borders Lake Superior on the other side. Let's let's talk about first with the role of the Superior National Forest or what role of national forest is across the country in that public land and it's better. We were established through law or policy that we don't focus on any one dominant issue or resource were were there to deal with yes to Timber resource with the outdoor recreation with the wildlife habitat with water quality. Our mission is for multiple uses and not to focus on one to dominate over the other and a try to bring that to the landscape and make money. We are not required to make money. We are attempting and we'll work always whether it's in our Recreation program or tumor program. Even I will in this program to be very efficient and how we Implement that mandate in the management on the ground. Is there a proposal on the table to double the cutting in the Superior National Forest in the process of revising our 1986 forest plants? Those plans guide the management for those two for us across that entire Forest on the federal land only and what we are asking for or have asked for at this point is for some extensive involved in the public collaboration. If you would call to help us in developing the various Alternatives and we're obligated to look for a range of Alternatives. Yes, there are alternative that has been proposed or develop from from the industry Minnesota Forest Industries of Wayne talked about that talks about focus is heavier on the Harvest to deal with those so historic conditions that took place and disturbing for jeans that have happened on our fourth over the years and then we have proposals from other groups to Sierra Club is put one together that would go to to the other side the Autobahn. Think that the Superior National Forest could sustain double The Cutting that's being done there now. At this point given the regulations that we have in place. I don't even say we were looking at doubling The Cutting or going 2-0 on The Cutting its trying to find that that harvas pattern or what was talked about the forest. We want the landscape. We want across the Superior or the Chippewa and through that through maintaining water quality habitat for wildlife and fisheries, whatever then we will have some alterations to that forest and I will be at some level we will be looking at providing a draft environmental impact statement next fall and then a final in about 2 years could just jump in here to just a set the stage. I think many of your listeners heard in the series previous that Minnesota's Northern Force used to be a previously were a very diverse Force mixtures of different tree types in different ages a real Mosaic and through the focus on providing fiber for the paper and waferboard industries. We have we are radical Simplified are for us. We have a force that is becoming not a whole lot more diverse than a corn field with just the proliferation of young age, Das Been Everywhere. This is not balanced force management. Jim is right when he says that the national forests have a mandate to provide for the variety of needs and uses of our public Forest land. What Wayne is proposing with doubling the Harvest on on the spirit Asheville Forest is they've had almost all the pi now. They want it completely this this is Forest in the current plan is only a third of the Acres that are even considered for management in the notion that Were Somehow converting massive amounts of the states Forest land let alone the national forest to a simplified cover type goes against all of the research and information about their You're wrong. You're talking about 10 year old information in the last 10 years. We have dramatically accelerated the Harvest here in Minnesota because they are waiting patiently and have many questions and comments that they would like to bring up we go now to St.Paul good afternoon Lars at Superior National Forest, but it's it's the land that really a joins it and that's owned by Minnesota Power and what I've been seeing is Minnesota Power leasing off small sections to small logging companies or small family-run logging companies that go in leased the land for a hundred years, they go in and cut their wood and they leave and there's doesn't seem like there's much management going on. That land is just left and it becomes a spin scrub after that. What's the responsibility of Minnesota Power and what is the you know and it is more on the private land-ownership issue of know the small lockers going in and pulling off $5,000 with the land and leaving now leaving scrub ass in there and it and it really destroys the land that surround it and also Superior National Forest. That's why I don't mean to speak for Minnesota Power. But I have some familiarity with their Land Management program to the best of my knowledge. They don't do any kind of long-term Timber leases. They do have a program where they lease Lakeshore Lots to individuals on the long-term the state of Minnesota also through the last couple of sessions has bought a substantial amount of the riverfront property. They had in the San Luis River to protect that on into the future in terms of their management of the Timberland that they Don't I know that they employ a number of of a professional Foresters new got a staff and a process they go through but it's not the any kind of long-term leasing arrangement we go North to side Lake for our next phone call. Good afternoon Max. Hello, good afternoon. Go ahead with your question or comment is the role of fire in the forest. Stop. The Boreal forest in particular is a fire ecosystem and I don't think we can talk effectively about the forests without addressing fire rescue me, and if possible, I'd like each of your guests to talk a little bit about fire ecology and fire in the forest from their perspective and I'll hang up and listen to thank you. Thank you Max Superior National Forest briefly the role of fire or Forest in the Northwoods of Minnesota. R4r sort of developed with fire is a key ingredient to that development those for us and as we look at that is one disturbance regime that is out there that took place before European settlement the Native Americans use weed through a disturbance inside the Boundary Waters. We will look at the allowing fire to continue to roll under sir. Circumstances under conditions that were be beneficial as we know we need to bring fire back into that system Outside The Boundary Waters. We are looking at tools for that disturbance in some cases to maintain that disturbance some places. I will bring fire into it or we will use timber Harvest to replicate a disturbance or where there isn't a commercial product or and it's unsafe to bring fire and will use the mechanical treatment to bring that disturbance regime in less painful than cutting. Well fires, as Jim said it's actually a natural part of the system of these four systems and has a place in them and I think it highlights that the colors Point highlights the issue of we need to get away from doing the same thing. Every where are forests are diverse. They need to be treated in a diverse management approach and 80% of the way. We log in Minnesota or more more than 80% is by clear-cutting that doesn't achieve that that ballet. And that variety that we need it and fire is one after that. We can introduce and bring it in and try using as a management tool to add a little more diversity to what we're doing wine brand your thoughts and it's not a pretty thing and it probably has very little likelihood with the numbers of people who own property with a deer hunting cabins or a lake places of the property owners in our Northern forests. Certainly aren't going to want to see a substantial reintroduction of fire. So well, it has been an important part of the ecosystem. And the forest service is Jim points out within the Boundary Waters of utilizes it we don't think it's going to be the risks are too high. Let wildfires burn. We have a logger on the phone from the town of Finland. Good afternoon Corey and I'll call in because it's a very good program iampieri's great then and I'm glad to see everybody that's on the panel to get to talk. But anyway, my thoughts that I wanted to mention on the show here where that diversity is a necessary thing that we need to have out in the woods and and all the different interested or involved in that the entire that the paper companies themselves. We're talking about the guy soccer early in the first hour. And we just I work for Potlatch and see if had a wildlife guy out here painting Aries off and talking about the goshawk and its territory. Is there their they're highly motivated in finding out on GPS there very very I don't know how much I want to put it but they're very deep into this diversity of the forest and and trying to look ways to To promote the force. I mean it chords are you comfortable Corey that the forests are being protected but can still be logged part of it is if you don't realize it like Wayne and mentioned earlier that people have to get out of their car to go actually look, I mean, I think a lot of these people are you know, if I think the biggest crime is all the pavement and all the cities of people that's where they're calling from. And I think that's the worst crime out here is a divorce are regrowing and fudge to the efforts of the paper companies involved for Potlatch. I hate that I don't want you to name, but you'll know if he's listening but he said I'd like to put a bumper sticker on my vehicle and say I am I Planet 2 million trees this year. How many of you planted the people who call in to talk about how the Forester does the state of the forest in Minnesota still? Thank you Corrie for your call. Today we go now down to Minneapolis where Doug is waiting on the phone. Hello, Doug baby Betsy and Jim Sanders might respond to it. I'm talking about old Force which are unfragmented and you talked about one earlier at Big Lake 7 Beaver. Another one is just on the western boundary of the bwca is called Little East Creek for us and that Forest has been left largely Untouched by harvesting and Roads since the early part of the century in the original Mosaic. There was a lot of pine in there right now according to the u.s. Forest service their own vegetative type map for the area. There's only one stand that is large enough of White Pines left in the area that has a destination as a white pine a cover type. 20 square mile area one small area that area is going to be scheduled to be cut by the DNR this winter. The White Pines are up to 200 years old. Some of them are younger than ones that are younger of dying of blister rust. The older ones are healthy. They see trees to see trees of the ones are going to be cut this represents cutting of white pine, which as you know is only less than 1% Original White Pine left in northern Minnesota. What do you think about that? Do you think about that? Do you know if the auto buyback that those those trees from Boise Cascade who is bid on them? Successfully treasured rare resource here in Minnesota all I think it's bringing up is a problem that plagues Minnesota, which is we don't have good communication from the Minnesota DNR about What they're planning where they're planning to do something. There's not a process for notifying the Public Public or involving the public in any meaningful ways until we have these last-minute surprise discoveries that the 11th hour and trying to resolve them is never never resolved to anybody satisfaction and it's an unfortunate unfortunate occurrence. The force of how ever does have a public involvement notification process and I think Minnesota's DNR would do well to try to emulate that so that we can we live in a Democratic Society and anytime you try to public Land Management agencies when they're not allowing the public to be involved in in knowing what's happening what's going to happen in their backyard and and two to their public resources. I think you need to start being nervous about why it is they don't want the public knowing what they're doing. Junior, I know one of the goals of the Superior National Forest is to preserve the White Pines for as long as you can the older white pines swipe, I know that was a subject to part of the debate around the sale last winter when the Auraria but we planned in the last couple years over million ceilings of White Pine and they have Timber sales under way out to I specifically help to regenerate White Pine and your great-great-great grandchildren will enjoy those that's the objective is what we leave today is what will there be there for those all of our children into the future but my role and roll on the federal or Forest land for service land is not to dictate what will happen on the other non-federal ownerships and that is within their upper view how they go about their management for on National Forest land with that. You said we have a very open involved public involvement process and welcoming want that public to be involved. Expensive process but it works on the federal public lands that's part of the process that is embedded in that then and it does work. It's not easy. It's not clean me to get very messy along the way but that's part of the debate. We're having any might be interesting to note that the superior and the Chippewa National Forest are two national forest in Minnesota represent is 12% of the forest lands in this state opportunity for public input or public involvement in the DNR processes. They have a process they do have opportunities for public input. They're certainly not is bureaucratically complexes has been created by the Congress and the courts for the forest service, but it's not that they're often some deep dark corner making decisions. They are very responsive to the public into a state elected officials. You're listening to a special Main Street show on Minnesota timber industry. I'm Rachel Redeemer broadcasting from the Minnesota Public Radio Studios of wscn wcsd in Duluth. My guest today Jim Sanders of the Superior National Forest and Betsy. Above the national Audubon Society. They're here with me and Duluth Wayne brand of the Minnesota Forest Industries joining us from our Saint Paul Studio. Our phone lines are open for your questions and comments you like to join our conversation this afternoon. Call us one 800-537-5252. We now go to Bemidji. Good afternoon Judy. Thank you for the comment and then a question. I agree with Betsy in that pile is getting smaller and other precious from all areas on our for us an example cutting is increasing here in Beltrami County on all ownership. 152821 cords were harvested in 1996-1997. It went up to 312952 quarts all species for public. So there are pressures and Industry is reluctant back hostile to guidelines that might be mandated on Horseback taxes. They want everything to be voluntary. I have gotten out of my car and I have walked a lot of the wood and I have not seen where voluntary guidelines I particularly work. No, my question is to Wayne Brandt. You want things voluntary? I'm going to shift positions a little bit here and I'm going to ask you sir. Why doesn't your industry voluntarily shift over to production of paper from post-consumer waste I've been using it for 5 years. It's my preference. I do not use a bleached white paper. I do not and I think it put the public were given the choice. I think they would come down. They would choose to to purchase post-consumer are paper made from post-consumer waste. Call raises interesting point on the use of Recycled Fiber the forest products industry nationally in here in the state of been part of a increasing the amount of recovered paper from some 28% to 45% in the past nine years that has been accomplished with the investment of an excessive 12 billion dollars Nationwide here in Minnesota. If you look back 10 years, they were very limited amounts of recycled content paper being produced. Now, there's some 23 different the grades that are being produced by our paper companies and that's all been done and Ona a voluntary away and as consumers and the other caller indicates that she is one of those consumers that seeks out recycled-content paper as more and more consumers do that. That's what gets made paper companies. Don't wake up in the morning having some unquenchable desire to make a product that people don't want to buy that their customers don't want Why and they will make what what the demand is out there for your job is trying to convince consumers that white paper is not good paper made from recycled is better. That's all of our all of our jobs in a sense is to educate people about how much we consume in this society and ways that we can consume less and take less of the of the natural resources that we need. I would also add a couple of different colors of economics and how we provide for people and Wildlife for the long-term. And I think if I think many people be interested in looking at what industry has proposed for both the Chippewa and Superior National Forest, and if you look at their own grass, they're proposing over the next hundred years to cycles of booms and busts for those forests and was forced communities. In other words are high Harvest levels and then Rock Bottom heart. Schwabl's this is not good sustainable forestry for isn't that good for the loggers? This is not good for vlogging families. This is not good for the communities that depend on these jobs and it certainly isn't good for the forest and I would just add that what Autobahn is is about is enlightened improved Forest management and we have work the citizens for over a year to gather information and form a vision that is more balance that is providing for people to have incomes from the forest. But also providing for the array of plants and animals. Would you like to respond to that the boom-and-bust Cycles in the analytical folks that we had that work on it? That's clearly not what was proposed in the cycles that she shows in or be happy to chat with her about those graphs are evened out in what we propose for the forest because we certainly don't want to see boom and bus Out there and that's not our intent. We think that as part of this alternative development process that the forest service ought to be looking at a broad range of ideas about how to manage them. And I frankly find a little offensive to be attacked on the MPR for forwarding an idea. That's an ecologically based approach is based on disturbance patterns in the Boreal forest, which do not occur here in Minnesota. We don't have any boreal forest. So your your your model is based on an ecosystem in Canada, Jim Sanders get into this conversation and start our process is being debated. I guess we're we're seeing the level of how that public involvement works. And what we're looking for is Wayne pointed out as Betsy's provided in their alternative through is at wide-range and that's what we're obligated. Look for is a wide range of alternatives for how to manage the Superior National Forest in the Chippewa National Forest. All the same time we go to st. Paul now where John waite's on the line. Good afternoon John. I've got a few questions here. Ok, as a hunter and a Trapper in and I've done some blocking the past 2 or so. I've been out of my car looking and I can see what's being done. And it's it's really changed quite a bit or logging practices of saving 10 years ago, or do you still do clear cuts and say hand of party possibly even an 80-acre section now, there's hundreds of Acres been clear-cut of that time. It's happened this happening really quick and The practice has been used right now seem to really affect like the surface hydrology of the area. Where are the runoff going to streams are skidding through streams? They're harvesting during the summer time when when the soil more affected and wondering after. Generations of this monocropping Aspen what we have left for future generations of minnesotans. What will happen? Jim do want to respond to that will happen or not happen based on that. That's what we're we go through an extensive analysis of any project or proposed Timber sale. We have to to try with our expertise that we have on the floor store hydrologic soil scientist ecologist to take a look at what is being proposed both. Not it only at the sight level right with a log into taking place. But how does that fit into a landscape that that becomes the part of the quilt of the pattern for it for there? And thank you could see also on the public on the federal for service lands that Harvest patterns have changed we have differences in sizes of the Harvest units does recognize you need small Harvest you need a large units you need different patches or trees remain remaining within those is looking for that diversity, but not only the site level but across the landscape to do to try to provide that and not to go for just one species are the other two are intent for planting white pine or all this year half of our Harvest was in the Commercial thinning and red pine stands were planted back into Civilian Conservation Corps days. So our harvests are patterns are changing on my muscle and skate four years ago. The Minnesota state commission are completed to give me a study a massive study of the impacts of Timber harvesting on the environment and despite some of the flaws in that study that might have actually underestimated the impacts of of harvesting. It had some alarming predictions and we need to pay attention to those predictions. They were saying that if we don't even change the way we Harvest and the end the rate that we Harvest our forest today just looking at bird species alone 2039 species of birds may experience significant population declines without doing anything different than what we're doing today. This is a concern to us and should be concerned all of minnesotans 50 years from now, which is the the length of time that this study was looking out into the future and I have a 20 month old daughter who turned 20 months old today when she's 50 years from now. I don't want her looking back and saying G, they really screwed up. They didn't do a very good job of taking care of these resources because sure enough 50 years from now those predictions became a reality. We have an opportunity today to to try To be more conservative and more caring and more thoughtful and how we care for our forest. Let's not mess it up. This is a rare opportunity to many of us have been involved in these issues have experienced in that was mentioned in that one of the segments in the previous hour. And that is the GE is information sheet, you know sites the 39 figure you can also look at the figures that show the number of species of birds increasing. I think one of the things that we all struggle with whether it's the national Audubon Society the Sierra Club the forest products industry the private property rights people or I or anyone else he is so many of these issues are very heavily value-driven and one group of people has one set of values that they believe deeply in another group has another set of values that may impact how they View weather games. These are relatively more important than the species of birds that we would want to Simply a look at or whether motorized recreational activities are most important or the so that's why the discussion at the table is so Lively because people are coming in with a whole different set of expectations and priorities in Minnesota that we have that is a structural Advantage. If you will versus some of the area's out west is we have got a variety of land ownership and those landowners belay the federal government the state government County government Native American tribes private individuals or the forest industry have a mosaic of goals and the interrelationship of them and the values that people bring to each of those areas and how they choose to use or not use their land are very are very important to all of us. Landowner waiting on the phone with us today Charles you're calling from Independence High Northern Minnesota and have a small 180 acre piece of property that 40 of it was cleared and 148 were Tim Burton. When we look at the long-term management weed first or relatively suspicious of the corporate agencies and looked at some nonprofit organizations come in and take a look and give us some recommendations. However, we were really surprised our best recommendations came from Potlatch. We told him what we wanted. We wanted and long-term small-scale mixed Forest so that we'd have a diversity and songbirds in the house and they came in and listen exactly what you want us to walk the property property and we ended up with a long-term plan where We took are we clear cutting for trying to do a gillion approach to Forest management? We had to compromise with an approach to be one acre a year in 2044. So we did it for small Foraker clear-cuts. I told Sixteen Acres out of 140 and then hope to do it again in about 10 years with a set of side approximately twenty-five to thirty percent of it says not mess with it all and Potlatch experience was just incredibly positive. They're biologist came and recognize what we wanted marked off by swear. We'd for Raptors and it was just a great experience and I was quite surprised exhibits. What is the uniqueness that comes to the Northwest Minnesota and that is the diversity that we need. We all can agree that we need diversity across the landscape and part of that diversity comes from the ownership patterns that we have and the objectives and intentions for how Individuals will treat their land is it called was talking about because there's no one answered. No one way nor should there be one way to treat every acre because it is that diversity we have both in harveston on harvest whether it's inside the Boundary Waters Outside The Boundary Waters private land doctor Lanzar federal or state land those approaches will bring the diversity not only in ownership at the diversity in our forest that we need to deal with the variety of species. We have I think what you're serious this morning are you talked about and the heavy logging that took place in the late 1800s and early 1900s we have today that we're debating about demonstrate that demonstrate the resiliency of our forests of our natural resources, and we're debating and talking about how to use those Forest that have responded then rebounded they are different than they were before that harvesting but that's what we're debating about. Is that resiliency and where we go from here? Hey, my name is Laura McLeod. I'm a student at the University of Minnesota. And I've also done quite a bit of research at the white Earth Indian reservation. And my primary research interest is the importance of harvesting for the Vitality of native cultures in northern Minnesota and time and time again, people have told me and shown me how clear cutting is destroying not only their traditional harvesting site, but also destroying their cultural values and their cultural ways that they would like to pass on to their children and I shared the word diversity quite a bit. But there's one piece that seems to be missing which I think is missing in the GE is as well. And that's a recognition of the link between cultural diversity and biological diversity. And I know that she is looks at cultural resources of native peoples. But primarily that's the burial sites gravesite archaeological artifacts and not we need to expand our Viewpoint people need today in terms of a living standing healthy diverse for us and I Know It Aspen regenerates quickly, but for a person who picks medicines to treat their Community the illnesses in their communities medicines don't grow in Aspen Groves and not too many animals grow in Aspen Groves or berries that they would traditionally pick but I would definitely a chance to respond to that. That's very important issue. Absolutely. Right on the nose and it gets back to again trying to provide are forced to meet the needs of all different kinds of people in all the different values and the cultural values of the spiritual values of Air Force are also critical of the people the citizen that audubon's been working with for over a year to provide Visions for the National Forest in Minnesota have said that that needs to be something that these two Forest take a much greater give much greater attention to in the next decade and beyond that we do need to be providing for traditional Gathering of forest products and traditional hunting and fishing for those people were listening who do not know what GIF means give us the shortest definition you can it is it was a state-sponsored study that was commissioned and began in 1990 and finish in 1994 to four years in a billion dollars worth of taxpayer money to examine what the impacts might be. From Timber harvesting on Minnesota's environment. Let's go to fill in Spring Lake Park. Good afternoon, Phil. Thanks for this conversation. I think this kind of conversation of all the diverse opinions is really what's needed and my comment along that line is I'm a big Aficionado of our state park system and we have an absolutely terrific State Park system that has an absolute preservationist man days. Then on the other hand were talking about use of the forest resources sort of on your roof of harvesting or ore mining the living world and it seems to me we need more of the conversation between those two extremes so that it should be pretty easy. To agree that we're going to of course. I save this large tract of old-growth white pine or of course, this area is environmentally sensitive or houses Sam some interesting rare species and and 12 course, we will preserve this and not log at or will will only take something very minimal. We may be taking a couple of of large of valuable trees rather than clear-cutting have difficulty understanding why this conversation so difficult I think it's so difficult as the collar points out that we had chatted about earlier because of the the values that we that we all have and bring to the table. I think that the state of Minnesota and the citizens can be proud of some of the processes that we have gone through here. Whether it's the generic environmental impact statement or the round table that followed that up for the activities of the Minnesota Forest Resources Council or you've got 14 diverse viewpoints coming together to hopefully I drive the drive the car down the center lane without any oncoming traffic. I just had gone but we ain't talked about there. I think you're right to call to the debate is over the emotional part and that's the different values that we bring to it my experience in natural resource management expand more than Minnesota be at the Pacific Northwest the entry of Rocky Mountains or even Washington DC and what I see what we are doing in Minnesota is unique and outstanding because we are bringing the entrance together. And is there a fast or quick Solutions know because these are not quick easy promises were saying right now if anything's there more confusing the more you talk about him, but we have the people at the table and what form that is, you know what you can continue to evolve what's important as everybody is sitting down we're talking about it. We're working our way through because the resources of what that will be what benefits from that process and that's what's key and unique and what we have going on here. So do they have a heart for compromise or Betsy? Is that sort of the problem here that you bring people in from the very and we've heard it during the show day from very diverse shorts of you and very cemented points of you and say now, let's come up with a consensus does not work. Well, I think that the chance it has of working as if no one party is greedy and once either digs in her heels and says we refused to acknowledge that needs to be changed or we were fused in our actions to acknowledge that there is there needs to be changed or wants to just continue to hang on to what they've got and we won't be able to meet all this GIF different values and needs of our forests if that happens if you're willing to give a little I think that's what this is about is that the scales have been tipped so far and in One Direction, I mean we're looking at the majority of our Northern forests are being managed by clear-cutting and the majority of our to national forests are managed for the primary purpose of meeting the needs of a few in That's not balanced. And so what we're saying is we need to restore that balance. We need to be able to meet the needs to be going to wreckreate who like to make a living in the forest who went to that connection spiritual and cultural life Wayne Brandt. Do you feel like the scale has been tipped towards industry thousand dollars in in equipment and is employing his neighbor on in her children, whether it's the companies that have hired Wildlife biologists and hydrologists to do a better job. It's so frustrating to be constantly attacked and to not receive any significant acknowledgement for the changes that have occurred in practices for the Investments that have been made in equipment and for the support that we have put behind a whole host of things whether it's the DNR surveying and establishing old-growth Reserves. Whether it's the preparation of extended rotation programs on different ownerships, whether it's the investment of some 40 million dollars and new logging equipment is at one of the callers and compromise on your side that you have come with the mood in a mindset for compromise of knowledge are there are ways that we can do things better acknowledging where their problems and actually putting our shoulders to the wheel whether it's supporting legislation supporting processes programs or the actual spending of money to make a difference on the ground. We think that we've got a pretty good track record. And yeah, I think it's our pledge and I know it's our pledge to the citizens in Minnesota that we're going to keep changing and we're going to continue to do the best job that we can we're not going to lie and I'll see massive dislocations of the people that we represent. We don't think that that's necessary. But we're going to continue to change as the knowledge change. Is an Forest practices which are different today than they were 10 or 20 years ago will be different 10 and 20 years in the future, Good afternoon Charles. I'd like to comment in this very interesting program about a couple things that I find myself listening to it involves language in and has the speaker was talking about change and your question that actually whether it's being towards industry mean I have to imagine that all of Minnesota was mold. It's pretty much been an industrial kind of a process that's been happening and it still reflects in words that we use to describe nature such as resources, don't we use? What we have around us if it's not just the resources to the source of life and I'd like to ask a question that is in my mind that has to do with of the wild switch. I I guess I would pick another word to use in that would be free because it has a different connotation. The one the one we can sort of think about Hooligans with sprake cancer when we think of wild but the unmanaged aspect of nature that nature that got along for billions of years without us. I'm don't you think that it would be more appropriate and don't you think this is happening on this is the wonderful news that we're starting finally to be the forest by our limited amount of resources that we have on this planet to manage ourselves better isn't that is not what everybody is really talking about around that table right now that so beautiful. Can you comment on this everybody? Yeah, I think it's all our responsibility whether it's in the recycling programs or the technology that's come to bear in how the logging practices or any other practice happens out on the ground or and how we use those those resources. We have any we consume more wood products by ton than any other raw materials in the United States and that's our challenges how to take him to go farther the previous or some of the earlier second in the program talked about the only took out the lower portion of the tree. We use the technology has expanded to waferboard it particle board to I-beam construction works. Not that the Solid 2 by 12 or 14 that goes into those floor boards that it's a whole combination across that is that all our responsibilities to move forward and and then talk about what is it? We want that landscape to look like are forced to look like and not so much the tools how we get there. Good afternoon, John. Yeah, my question is with taxpayers paying $800 a year according to Foresters figures to subsidize corporations logging on a national forest and 70% American public believing we shouldn't even be logging on National Forest isn't a time when you get the corporate interests out of our national forests and stop logging them. Jimmy want to respond to that are Minnesota national forests are operated on the lowest unit cost of any of the National Forest in the country and have been at or above cost on a Timber sale perspective. I mean we're looking at these are Dynamic Landscapes are going to change with us or without us and it's how we did deal with that. I think we want our children to grow up with places where they can see the variety The Marvelous variety of life around them where they can follow in our footsteps and work in the forest where they can form that spiritual cultural connection with the land and those are the variety of different things that are our national public for us and our other poor public trust lands can do we're out of time this afternoon Wayne Brandt Jim Sanders. Thank you for being with us today. The special Main Street radio broadcast is a production of Minnesota Public Radio or Engineers are ribs in ski in Duluth Jenny lubke in St. Paul are producers. Executive producer Mel Summerside producer Bob Kelleher would like to thank the staff of wscn and wcsd for allowing us to bring you this show from Duluth invite you to visit the Main Street website got a www.mpr.org to be able to hear this broadcast as well as other Main Street reports the address again www.mpr.org NPR's Main Street radio coverage of Royal issues is supported by the blandin foundation committed to strengthening communities through grant-making leadership training and convening Minnesota public radio's Main Street team consists of 12 reporters and NPR barrows across Minnesota. I'm Rachel reabe. On the next All Things Considered our series our state our forest continues with a look at wildlife and logging All Things Considered weekdays at 3 on Minnesota Public Radio. You're listening to Minnesota Public Radio. It's 43° at k n o w FM 91.1 Minneapolis-Saint Paul. Today's Twin Cities weather calls for cloudy Sky to 50% chance of rain with a high in the mid-40s 60% chance of precipitation in the form of rain changing to snow tonight temperature again 43°