It's 6 minutes past 11. Today's programming is made possible in part by The Advocates of Minnesota Public Radio contributors include 3M worldwide supplier of healthcare products and the Honeywell Foundation providing the benefits of control worldwide. Good morning, and welcome to mid-day on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm John Raby sitting in for Gary eichten was back at the helm tomorrow the strike against you as West's underway. Chances are you're feeling as if you've made even one call for information to 411 a strike looms at Northwest Airlines threatening to snarl travel plan for many Americans recent strike at General Motors caused the definite blip in the most recent economic reports and it took a big bite out of GM's profits exactly. What does a strike accomplish nowadays and what happens after what happens in negotiations? And what can they accomplish? What's the role of the mediators who had so much work lately will try to answer those questions and more in this hour of midday with Mario Bonilla know who is Professor of industrial relations at the industrial relations center of the University of Minnesota Carlson School of Management. Morning, John and will take calls to 276 thousand in the Twin Cities to 27 6001 800-242-2828 1 802-4228 28 questions big and small on strike strategy in one of the things I'm I'm thinking professors. Maybe our listeners can help us gauge public perception of strike. So if they've been inconvenienced deeply troubled by school strikes in Surah or some of the work troubles at Northwest Airlines understand that strikes to 276 thousand or one 800-242-2828. Why don't we start with u s West strike first since it's underway got thousands of workers going back to picket lines and 13 states today negotiators for the baby Bell phone company in the communication workers of America are scheduled to meet secretly with a federal mediator this afternoon for the first time since the strike began on Sunday. Overall. What do you see happen? In this strike, what are they talking about? What are the issues? well John U. Lloyd may be helpful both in our conversation and also free for The Listener to sort of just stopped back as her to lay out with the ground rules are in labor relations in labor negotiations, you know for several decades five five or six decades. Now the sort of the culture of industrial relations negotiations have cultures develop the most on on on two points. The first is that I'll let me call it the adversarial point and hunt on that the parties are basically agree that each other each each other has a has a legitimate reason for existence. That means there is no challenge to the capitalistic motivation of the of the company and And the companies in all of these strikes that you've mentioned don't challenge the legitimacy of their Union and of the role of workplace democracy in the union. So neither neither is out to sort of undermine. The reason for existence of the other as institutions or is organizations, but within this principle this advocacy point there is also a recognition that well each wants to to assistance in helping the size of the pie expand. They recognize that at some point out when they are in the act of trying to figure out an appropriate distribution of that pie that sometimes strikes the threat of strike and a lot of harsh harsh exchanges will take place and that's that's part of the that's part of the process. That's at the advocacy point. The other point I wanted to make has to do with the idea of that. These are voluntary processes which prescribed to the government payroll as referee. The party's historically have had no Instinct for involving the government and setting wages hours and conditions of employment the employer usually Find that are alternative very just take this tasteful in and so do unions. They want self-determination all this and as a result the government's principal role in in negotiations negotiations before strike occurs. And after strike occurs is to provide what we called mediation services and those those Services involve the introduction into the mix of a neutral whose job it is to make sure that the parties have open lines of communications and the the mediator for example who's working now with you as well as working today with you as well ask and with the and with the unions involved is there to clarify with the issues are so the party's understand what their respective positions with Rihanna on any given issue is and in that car battery and that and that mediator is also there to suggest to the party. What's a cost are on them and on the public if the disagreement continues or is it all just kind of symbolic? It's not symbolic. I mean the other there is an aspect of symbolism to the introduction to mediation. It suggests that the parties are serious. They are working in good faith to reach an accommodation. But but no them be the mediator performs an important function of a part of that a part of the mediation process for example, would involve the mediator separating the two negotiating teams and and and trying to trying to get into keishin from each separately. Now what it is that they would prefer find acceptable and but and also is that mediator will try to understand why it is that they're afraid to reveal this acceptable position to the other side and one. The mediator senses that each has wiggle room and once he has has come to the conclusion that hey here is a package that he thinks meets the minimum acceptable requirements of each site. The mediator himself would propose or might propose that package and then expect that each of the two sides to agree to it. But but it is the mediator has no power to impose a settlement on the parties, but I wonder if maybe doesn't apply with the US West right because they are striking out another mediating. But I wonder if the existence of a federal mediator hurts the Union's cause just a very existence of it because it supposed to avoid a strike right or or cut the damage from a strike when in fact the strike is isn't the chief tool of the Union well, so they're your blunting that tool from the get-go. This is this isn't this is an interesting perspective. Let me let me once again back up for a second, you know, negotiations are are never easy think of what we're doing here in collective bargaining Association. Two parties are really bargaining under conditions of uncertainty. That is to say they're trying to come up with a set of terms and conditions that are binding on both sides over a Future. No, 3 4 5 years in this case. I'm assuming they're negotiating the three-year agreement and and it's really very difficult to know what the future conditions of the marketplace of the firm of the Union will be over the course of those next three years and and the fact that negotiated contracts actually are but are produced by the parties is sometimes viewed as Amazing because it is so very very difficult. We have two parties whose goals in negotiating are often and often in conflict and as a result of the essential as the basic conflict in there in there in there in the goals that they try to achieve through negotiation this result of that conflict this distrust, there's bluffing, you know, if you and I were to go into negotiations. I wouldn't if I had $10 in my pocket, I would immediately offer you $10 here. We have IUS West saying that the communications workers have no intent to settle during negotiations. That's the one of the charges is being level two or do you believe that I know I believe new attempt to settle have no intent and I believe they have an attempt to settle it both sides have an interest in settling obviously when you're working went with me on when they will strike and Sue's Going to be cost realize that will befall both parties. And unless there's something entirely a rational about these these players neither of them want to impose costs and then find themselves needlessly so both have an attempt to and intend to reach an agreement here, but they don't like my point was that in 99% of your negotiations in spite of the difficulty of reaching a collective bargaining agreement. You're going to have an agreement occasionally, they'll be breakdowns as there was in the in this in this in this Northwest case the strike he is in fact a legitimate or when you have a lawful primary striking place. It's a legitimate tool for the parties to use to try to compel the other to concede and and that's what's going on it and it's it's a really it gets the basis for the creation of a healthy Kenshin. In all the years that I've been observing collective bargaining Association Sy Thai seldomly hear the mediator being bashed. I mean, I think both parties know how to manipulate the mediator how to use the mediator in a way that will produce agreement north. Of course, they would favorite agree with that is closer to their to their position. The strike was a more effective tool in a pre 1981 Euro going to do Saturday the answer your question. What happened in 1981 was an old Doctrine called the mackade was dusted off and that's what I trotted around the about the Industrial Age of community America and that that doctor and he's back in 1938. And and basically it's a statement that employers May hire permanent Replacements and see you know, it went went went in when the employer organizations unions when they go out on strike. It is incredibly difficult step for them to make I mean, there's like requires a lot of organizing a lot of families are involved a lot of reputations or evolve a lot of faces involved and Anna in a lot of money is involved. So it's as if it's a very difficult step they take that step hoping that it will be it will be a tactic that causes the employer to become allergic to their needs to their goals and will cause concession on the part of the employer. They don't take that step because they expect to or wish to lose their job and the McKee Doctrine basically week in the tactic the strike tactic has a way of producing agreements because it now does permit employers to replace permanently striking workers. 19 minutes past 11 you're listening to mid-day on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm John Raby in for Gary eichten Professor Mario, banyana, banyana apartment is a Frankfurter one Yono of industrial relations at the industrial relations Center at the U of M Carlson School of Management is our guest and we're talking strike strategy, whether it's a good thing or a bad thing nowadays to strike from the Union's point of view, and we want to know whether it's a good idea from The public's point of view to give us a call. Let us know what you think about for instance. The ongoing u.s. West Drake hasn't inconvenienced. You are you worried about the impending Northwest Airlines strike who make who do you get mad at in a case like this. Give us a call. Let us know to 276 thousand in the Twin Cities to 276 thousand or one 800-242-2828 1 800-242-2828. To about are the way they are the people that have seen strikes written about whether they think they are a good strategy nowadays are not one of the government sides on fairly with business or with the unions to 276 thousand or one 800-242-2828. It is all fair game on mid day today and let's go to Howard waiting patiently in Rochester Howard. Thank you for calling you very much. Thank you for taking my call. Most people as I have read in the newspaper and listen on the radio and television. Concerning the possible strike in Northwest in the ongoing strike at USC a u.s. West and in the past like a General Motors. They talk only in terms of two parties the companies involved in the labor union involved but really I think they are overwhelming presence of a third party and that's the public-at-large with customers about potential Airline or telephone company or automobile and in today's global economy with so many choices. If General Motors goes on strike a customer can then turn around and buy a Ford if it goes on strike a customer can turn around and go to another long-distance carrier or use a cell phone if America is Northwest goes on strike the customer can turn to American Airlines or United or something else. Maybe not the exact day. There will be some discomfort but they are so many Alternatives in today's economy that strikes right now just aren't as effective as they were in the past and when the customer realizes that TD strike take place, obviously, there's discomfort and dislocation there for a while, but the economy will just Compensate for that dislocation and a strike will actually accomplish nothing except to hurt the company and hurt the employees to go on strike. The customers will find all alternatives to to those companies that are on strike to the labor union. How are you saying here than that is unfair for Union to strike. They're putting their jobs at risk. They're putting their Union at risk because they're what are they going to do? They're not going to stop Commerce. They're not going to stop travel Airlines other airlines will pick up the load other car manufacturers will sell Legacy cars. That would have been bought by GM my wife we will use our cell phone if we can do it, but you still got that thread of a strike and you still got that individual company that does not want to get hit by a strike, right? So when they then proceed to the Union's demands because they don't want to be hurt. They will fake. Listen, the demands of the Union might be so exorbitant that we can sign this contract but a year from now or two years from now or cost will be so great in comparison to our competition. That's the competition's going to put asunder. So we have a choice we can die now with a strike or and sign this and not sign his contract or we can sign this contract and later from the competition because our cost her out of my sight that you were going to make a case against strikes. Basically what you're saying, is that strikes or just an effective in a competitive economy and quite there yet. It's an interesting perspective when the economy is not particularly competitive, you know where to wear certain markets are not competitive. We often have statutes and place it prohibits strikes from a curry for example of one federal employees. Where there's no competition or among police departments or fire departments in a community where there where there aren't ready substitutes available to do the work. We don't we don't permit strikes as a matter of public policy for those particular occupational groups because they enjoy the position of of Monopoly substitutes are unavailable. And therefore the third-party public does carry an inordinate burden as a result of the strike that strike is considered to be a permissible and lawful tactic as is the lockout in markets that tend to be competitive. I thought you were going with this argument that Northwest at the it is hubs are you know, he is is a he is a near-monopoly or not like awfully and and so is Northwestern Bell but you're identifying the Alternatives that are out there and to the extent that there are alternatives consumers can go elsewhere can shop elsewhere and their of and their boy in their bite them. Finish the effect of the strike on on the on the on the third-party Public Schools public relations act was first enacted Public Schools. Could. Were prohibited from from teachers were from heaven from striking weed now permit the shrike as a tactic to bring it back in session and compromising. The reason was that are our policymakers did not like the consequences of arbitration. Where are you now have unlike a mediator and arbitrator is someone who would sit in on a on the dispute listen to the arguments of both sides and basically write the contract that will bind them over the future the are pararara policymakers in the state legislature did not think that was a viable approach and they went to the strike is the conflict resolved in tool rather than arbitration not interesting. In the Northwest case the company did propose binding arbitration the union rejected that alternative basically saying hey, let's just let's just do this out. You're right. It's already saying we the pilots will incur tremendous salary losses and perhaps Health and Welfare benefit losses for the duration to strike and the company also will lose profits. It. It made me from market share on a permanent basis, who knows and but it's those very types of economic forces that are the public policy believes will bring about concession compromise listening to the conversation and it's like Indian today's pre-market where work corporations have record profits executives are paid highest salaries ever as bad as compared with the employees in those companies. Yeah, I agree strike is always a bad thing for all people involved, but I From an employer standpoint you have a you have an option if a if a company doesn't wish to increase wages, which is many times wages and benefits are usual. The most frequent items for strike. Well, actually that's that's a different question entirely at when I want to get into it in the bed the kind of changing face of what the unions are demanding BR barometer. He wouldn't if you are inconvenience by Northwest Trek if it happens, maybe you've already been inconvenienced by us westreich. Maybe your kids stay home from school. If there's been a school strike on them that many of them recently what what's it like for you as a person and the inconvenience that you've faced you still support the union even know that there would be inconvenience. I understand that that those workers are trying to maintain the ability to two. Lifestyle that wages wages of really gone up very little over the last few years in comparison to the cost index of of the items that those wages are trying to purchase. And so I think the worker is is is you know, pretty much strapped. I mean, if you know, if you're going to maintain that lifestyle that that you've become accustomed to somewhere along the line you need a flight weight wage increase to cover those things and I got the consumer I'm willing to to be put out occasionally so that those workers can do that. Well, I think I I think Jim Jim is basically making an argument as to why Union demands at the bargaining table are legitimate. And these are these are proposals that they're making it will have the effect of increasing unit labor cost of production. But his argument is there is an ability to pay profits are high and future expected profits are high at least as he sees it in there for a generous wage increase is is what the employer is not be coming forth with the the facts are that when real wages lag and when when wages are in a company relative to patterns of the earnings of other employees in that industry lag the probability that units will strike empirical support for this after the executive compensation aspect of this that feels emotions and it is Respond to someone amazing that Executives will in fact exercise is the way they have stock options in the face of upcoming collective bargaining to Goshi ation. So that produce for them millions upon millions of dollars and and then go to the bargaining table and proposed one to 3% salary increases the the executive executive pay issue is a is an issue that unions can effectively represent Market to its own members as as as to the legitimacy of the strike and hold that strike together and and and in fact convince their workers to that argument the crossing the picket line, is it something they are not do its 11:30 and you're listening to midday on Minnesota Public Radio. The dairy princesses have been picked the cows away to the milkshakes or cold in the french fries are hot. It's Minnesota State Fair time starting August 27th in Minnesota Public Radio. Is there why but the fair join us at the corner of Judson and Nelson and you'll meet some of your favorite NPR host and see how a radio show is done for more information on schedule for Minnesota Public Radio at the fair visit our website www.mpr.org. And we had to move right next to the sausage Booth. So it compare more favorably it's 11:31. You're listening to mid-day, Minnesota Public Radio. It's cloudy and a 71 in the Twin Cities and we're looking at a muggy afternoon. Mostly cloudy 83° winds up to 20. At the southeast it'll be steamy overnight with scattered showers and thunderstorms some heavy rain possible down to 68° and then mostly sunny and less humid on Thursday to see a high-round 86° take a pic of the weekend Friday Saturday Sunday a chance of showers and thunderstorms, sorry highs and low to mid-80s again. It's going up to eighty-three right now cloudy and 71 and we're looking at showers and thunderstorms overnight be in for Gary. Eichten Mario one. Yono is our guest is Professor of industrial relations at the industrial relations center of the University of Minnesota Carlson School of Management, and we're talking about strikes whether they're effective nowadays are now What the long-term ramifications are of for instance the ongoing us westreich or the looming Northwest Airlines strike or the lasting implications of the General Motors strike that went on for some 50 days and cost General Motors something like 1.6 billion dollars even caused a blip in the economic figures for that quarter. It was such a big strike and so important in the overall scheme of things. We're interested in what you're thinking this morning about strikes to 276 thousand in the Twin Cities to 276 thousand or one 800-242-2828 1 800-242-2828 the toll-free line anywhere in the listing area Professor. Let's go from Idina Allen. Thank you for just a couple of comments. Number one. I I do have bought a ticket for Northwest supposed to leave in October. Don't know if I'm going to do that. But I don't care I fully support the strike. I support all workers striking when when that's an absolutely necessary to all and I disagree with an earlier color who talked about the different options. I have no real option trip Northwest Airlines. I mean 80% of the flights out of Twin Cities or Northwest and Northwest has bad as a boy to Blackmail the public I do not blame the union for that. They are really trying to get a small portion of the incredible profits that Northwest has been building over the years based on their concessions from earlier conversation. If I have need a phone at my house, you know, you have left as yet. I mean with all of the mergers and the the huge conglomerate that are being built Union strikes are the only thing left that working people have to ensure that they're going to get any piece of the pie while corporate profits Skyrocket. Well, I think I think Alan he's he's he's basically arguing that that he supports the pilots and I he supports the workers. I think they had and that's fine. I'm not sure an opinion with respect to size on this but by and large, I mean, I think he reflects the public view with respect to the National policy. The strike should be permitted primary economic strikes out of be permitted to and and of course they are by my law but I think your readers ought to know of a couple of things or your listeners. I don't know a couple of things John one is that we virtually have no track activity in this country as a nation last year. There were only 29 strikes the United States involving a thousand or more employees 20-30 years ago. Those numbers were for and 500 strikes per year. So we're talking about an entirely different environment with respect to strike activity. Secondly, they ought to recognize this strikes in this country are are Well-managed and end in conduct at the stri of the strike is a is generally a lawful weird. We're not experiencing militant strikes is Zendaya's in South Korea. For example an old sign South Korea where the workers and their families have basically occupied the factories and up to a couple of days ago at at the end of the weirdest all the police in Korea wood with storm the the factory management finally brushed them back with a threat that they would end up ruining the ruining the factory and all the automobile assembly equipment that was in it strikes in this country are highly regulated. We don't have Wildcats. We don't have sit-ins. We don't have secondary boycott strike. There's cooling off. There's notification. That's on and on and off all sounds for the company that encourage entrepreneurship. The other day of the flip side of a strike, right? Well, it it it it is the case that the public wants to believe that workers ought to be able to exercise has heard of a common-law and now legislative right to strike over economic issues. But over other issues the public isn't has not been all that has not been all that willing to permit strikes to occur. What about what about this? And then I'm just going to test this out here. Is it possible that in fact with globalization unions have greater potential than ever before? Listen to the facts are that because of the laws that surround strike principally this make a Doctrine the strike replacement the you're not so unlikely that Northwest is going to be able to find X-Files of pilots in the near future or that the u.s. West will be able to find what thirty thousand employees. So you're not likely to experience The Replacements right there, but you may they may in fact bring Temporaries in temporary Replacements and they helped I mean you read in the paper this morning, for example, where you at? Where is the site has decided now that they are going to increase the cost to strike that will befall the employee by stopping payments on on health insurance benefits by the end of this month. I read in the paper. I don't know how to get to be a fact but that's a tactic now to really increase the cost to strike and to call Strikers and their families to begin lobbying the negotiating Committee in the Labor leaders to to make concessions at the bargaining table by the same token u.s. West is under pressure because of programs in comments like that that had to make I mean he give me Ellen is basically saying hey I got I've got Alternatives workers have the right to attach strike in and let it go on and the last as long as it can of u.s. West has the experience tremendous profits in the oven in past years or since negotiation is an overpass profits over future profits and the companies in Industry usually used the future more pessimistically than do workers. I mean, that's another kind of reality that sets up the strike option, but they it's a reality that 99% of your negotiators Works through and then never have two in as result never have do I express the strike Northwest they are talking about wages but isn't a fact that the trend is kind of an actually away from negotiating wages so much as mandatory overtime benefits work schedules and send a pay that can What you're absolutely right if you go into the eighties and then to the early nineties a lot of negotiation a lot of the issues that were really thorny issues that divided the parties had to do with the organization of the workplace had to do with a number of job classifications had to do with working across jurisdictions cook corporate issues have to do with corporate flexibility had to do a subcontracting with the consequences of merger with the consequences of downsizing and pushing into bargaining units more managerial responsibilities through team leaders who were working unit members and on and on those were the issues in those with the issues as downsizing and was was occurring in unemployment was occurring and a lot of it was hitting right it was hitting at those industries that were highly unionize that mean that the global Marketplace up to this point in time has not been favorable to unions. It's just put has added another piece. Of competition in there and and and if employers and fat can secure labor that is as efficient and productive at a lower rate. They will pursue that in and as a result when you see Imports coming in on to the US Shores you got to understand that that's a form of Labor Market competition because there's a labor component and all those Imports and they were made by workers who receive less by we can wait in terms of wages and benefits than the US workers. Do your point the globalization will somehow strengthen the hand of of Labor it may eventually if if organized labor around the world could some help organize and and and in fact that the airline case of the Northwest case, I understand that the KLM Pilots would in fact support the The UAW not the UAW, but the Northwest airline pilots and so forth. So they're there is some cross-border multinational organization and cooperation occurring on the side of the organized labor is looking to that we're seeing some of that between unions and this country and unions in Mexico, but by and large is not her it's not a reality at this point to the effect that it would change local negotiations 19 minutes before noon. I wonder if maybe they could get hot towels for passengers on all domestic flights as well. Those are really nice made the point that he's flying Northwest. Was it later this week or something and there was no water in October and October high-flying Northwest Friday down to Chicago and I have a Northwest ticket, but I'll tell you where I also did I bought it back up fully refundable ticket on United. So Northwest doesn't fly. I've got a flight least 20 minutes later from the United former United. Cupbop delegate good luck Wayne from Fargo. Welcome to the show Noah Goodwill for them. They've basically messed over. Are employees what they've got every group of their employees start new strike from stewardess to mechanics the pilot and with them trying to shut down pretty much giving orders to their Peter airline to shut down there trying to keep people from even using the Alternatives other airlines. That's why a lot of the traffic from up here is actually driving down to South Dakota to fly out on your lines of route to Denver Northwest told them to other than the Northwest international flights there pretty much a regional Airline Upper Midwest here getting in towards, New York. So you get involved in as far as deregulation and cousin spoke. I think that's only benefited certain cities like Orlando, Florida New York to get a lot of doors. They've got a lot of options other hub-and-spoke areas. It's you take what we've got. Okay. I certainly am and as well as The Machinist in the stewardesses, I think all three of you should band together and don't have separate negotiations this looming strike at Northwest. We've got that deadline 11 at night on August 28th, John, you know labor negotiations can be thought of as a hater if you will there is there's a front stage and backstage and The public is is sort of on the front stage with all the actors who were making presentations and pigeons two different constituencies, but there's a backstage and it's out of the Limelight and and might my guess is that that's where some very serious work is being done and quite frankly think that the prospects of a long and difficult Striker are greater with The Machinist and they are the airline pilots. We will see a couple of years ago under the under the agreement that the vet that control the givebacks and that the basically sell these Northwest Airlines back in 1993. There was a clause that basically held that the under that agreement they give back agreement through the closet basically held the pilots on receive a 3% increase in 1996. Conditions the company of construe that article in such a way that it held that the 3% increase would not be forthcoming. The matter went to arbitration an arbitrator found in favor of unfavor the airline pilots Association, but there we saw to 19696 two years ago when negotiations with these unions first began and in NH, you know, I've been in this town since 1970 and I think I probably live through three or four airline pilot Association strike and I may live through another one. I hope not go to Donald online from Bloomington High Donald relationship. Is it mention that it's very old 1950. I graduated with that the sequence Ridge there was a little of the company at one point, but hardly anything really in the newspaper, which I think quite often happens because it appears the strike obviously is in is in favor of the people that are getting less wages and and the class struggle with the managers and that sort of thing but GM was faced with something that that I think was probably a mistake of there as they they felt producing Parts in the house. They can hold quality better than buying outside and that was a major blunder on their part, but the two plants in Flint they were the basis of that whole strike operation were so grossly inefficient based on piece work in one of them and very low-tech operation of the other and the company loses the like the one plant between fifty and a hundred million dollars a year as they operate it cuz the guys work 4 hours to go home and then on time-and-a-half, it could come back and complete the production of necessary GM so that you knew the man they lose. Between 600 and $1,000 per unit on every vehicle. They produce compared to Ford and Chrysler Ford and Chrysler did go outside. They came close to bankruptcy and they buy outside for about 20 LG employees get 44 to 46 depending on their French though that it's going to build a new plant in an actual new plant in Flint to make a 6 cylinder engine. It's a pretty bad lungs of 717000 square foot facility 700 people are going to be employed there. They can't be doing too bad if they're going to build a new plant will be under a new agreement or maybe require a higher skill level but basically the ones trying to protect themselves were queer low-tech and low-skilled jobs outside. The United States don't have state Don makes it a very good point, you know, this is why they're so much Hazard and trying to generalize Labor Relations be Show me these relationships are firm in Union Pacific and they are they are not be generalized taking advantage of of GM's interest in producing its own parts. And we're meeting in 4 hours a day then coming back and over time are those Fair complains stomach strike by all intent for all intensive purposes. In fact, there is an open question is whether or not it was a lawful strike in the first place that they're their contract had a no-strike clause in it. There were certain exemptions exceptions to the two that clause and an arbitrator was in fact studying whether or not the strike itself as lawful, it only involved a handful of workers eight or nine thousand employees, but the strike lawful or not did in fact put the Intel layoffs that us another hundred fifty thousand below East the issues hand to do with technology and organization. Work work rules and the it wasn't sort of a wage and benefits kind of debate. It had to do with job security. And and basically the company was was making the argument that it could get the job done far more efficiently with the different technology and different work rules. Then was the case in Flint and it both plants and as a result that whole issue this sort of this technology type of dispute. We will see raise to get a year from now when they go into Masher to go see a shins. I should note that Ford and Chrysler who also work with the divisions of the United Auto Workers have managed to produce contracts that result in deficiencies that GM has been unable to accommodate another was Strike at Bell Atlantic and they did sell that one with the communications workers of America. And their I think one of the big question was what's going to happen with digital technology. Are we going to lose a bunch of positions and they gave some guarantees there now, is there a parallel with this Babybel strike and the one at u.s. West in the in the case of you as well? Give me the district are the states that u.s. West covers are states that have been growing in population and rather than rolling back workforces. They have been increasing the size the workforce including the size the bargaining unit. And and what's at issue in the u.s. West Drake or issues having to do with with pay and overtime and Healthcare Provisions. I mean, those are the dominant Provisions all of the baby bells as well as AT&T going back to the beginning of this decade. I think a 1992 have put great language in their country. Staff on the part of employees language that basically offers employees options in the face of layoffs mergers or organizational redesign Provisions. For example, that offer workers an opportunity to take up to two years leave of absence so that they may go to school Advance their Advance their education that advanced a change their skill mix so they may be a value elsewhere within the company or a value in the marketplace. Should they decide to leave the company with tuition benefits and on and on so that's been there and the are in the communication workers the IBEW an AT&T. I think overall have been incredibly creative and in fashioning collective bargaining agreement that really do have the interest of those are both parties, but protected the workers in in in mind the union have done a great job, but this strike the US strike. I think focus is really on economics. It has to do with pay and and and in labor cost the I think the ticklish issue was his pay for 4/4 issue and in here basically with the with the company is trying to do is to encourage the the workers to accept a a performance-based pay plan where you keep your base salary and you earn a B on that base if you if you meet certain performance targets and from the standpoint of workers are saying hey we want we want our pay insured. We don't want to have to worry about about targets about to finding targets about rain who's going to manage these targets and on and on and on and that that's that's what that's a toughie. Let's fit in one more call her We Got Talent on the line from Eden Prairie. Thanks for hanging on Ellen. And I'm going to Paris and they did this thing which I found very delightful and accommodating. There was transport strikes and they would sort of strike on Wednesday. And and so on Wednesday, we knew that we would have to take the bus or find another way of getting around and I'm wondering if you