It is now 6 minutes after 11. You were listening to mid-day from Minnesota Public Radio. Gary acting is off this week. I'm very fanelli programming on Minnesota Public Radio is supported by Dayton's oriental rug Department in Downtown Minneapolis Saint Paul and at the Southdale Brookdale and Rosedale home stores will only about 40% of the state's third. And fifth graders are on track to pass new graduation test. That's the key finding among results out today from new basic skills test students in those grades took just a few months ago State education officials say these so-called Minnesota comprehensive assessments are not meant to determine whether students meet or fail to meet a certain grade would rather where students fall on a spectrum joining us in the studio today to analyze results couple of people who track this issue very closely joining us now is Kate traffic assistant commissioner for teaching and learning at the State Department of Children and Families in law.This traffic this morning. Thanks for coming in. And also joining this saying just a bit Joe Nathan director of the center for school change at the University of Minnesota's Humphrey Institute. Of course, I'm sure that the results and ensuing analysis will prompt him any listener questions and comments before I guess and so we invite all this news to give us a call today couple of numbers. I'm going to give you the reaches here at the NPR studios in the Twin Cities. The number is 227-6002 276 thousand the toll-free number is one 802-422-8281. 800-242-2828. And as I mentioned a lots of questions and comments, I'm sure about this issue and we're going to start with the missed traffic and talk a little bit about Vista this test for those of us who may have never even heard of this test. What what are they and what are they trying to accomplish and what kind of bugs go step-by-step through thisIs a part of the graduation rule which includes both the basic standards which are tested in eighth grade you recall within the last month or so the test scores being released on the mathematics and the reading for 8th graders in their basic skills. What these tests do is give us a measure of student performance against the high standards those high standards are ultimately the standards that will be achieved across 10 learning areas including math in the Arts in World languages and inquiry Sciences by the time they leave high school well to be prepared for those to complete those standards at the high school level students also will be completing work in the standards from kindergarten through grade 8 what these tests did was take some of the essential things that the children need to know and be able to do based on those Preparatory standards at the third and fifth grade levels and it wasLimited to math and reading for 3rd grade and included written composition for 5th grade as well as the math in the reading so these are very distinct from the 8th grade test 8th grade test. All of the items were at about the same level of difficulty. We just want to know if kids can clear that bar the third and fifth grade tests included items at a whole range of levels so that we could indeed identify students whose performance at this particular day this little snapshot would suggest that they have a capacity that exceeds what is necessary to complete work in the high standards are four levels. Is that right to hit level three is a trade or explain this whole level press. Okay, what we did was that we went through what's called a performance standard-setting process. We included lots of teachers and District assessment people sittingI'm looking at these tests and looking at our standards and deciding how much do you need to be able to do to be successful? And that was that's the level 3 this this level 3 predicts that you have the capacity as long as you apply yourself to successfully work in the high standards the level four refers to that population of students who is current performance today exceeds. What we believe is required the students who would be in the level 3 or in the level to One Step Beyond that would be students who have exhibited partial Mastery partial competency required to complete work in those high standards level 1 level 1 would represent students who have limited capacity to complete the work in the high standards high standards that will be implemented in fall.So this is not data that were using really can use legitimately to judge one school over another it's it's information that a school will use to determine how far that's cool needs to go in order for their students to achieve at the high standard level are at that level 3. I mean, how do you react to that? Is that is that good news? Is that bad news? It's somewhat hard to tell on its face. I suppose good-news-bad-news is a judgment. But here's what it is nearly 40% of the students showed that they they were in a level 3 or level four show that they today have the capacity to successfully do work in those high standards of the remaining students by far the majority have some of the skills required what this will do is it will cause SchoolMost districts teachers to ask some questions that's what this test is about. It's really designed to invite questions. How will we get these kids were not performing well with measurement for some other component of the test to do better over time and I suspect to some extent that may be changed the sequence or the timing of instruction. In other cases. It may be intensifying instruction. It's it's something that has to be asked at the local level 60% better. What does that say? I really believe 100% can and will do better as we focus our instruction on these higher expectations those the remaining 60% As I said many by far the majority of them have some of the skills necessary and I'm assuming similar to the 8th grade tests schools will respond to this and change.Way they do business. It'll be interesting when we have time to analyze the data to look at the nature of instruction in schools where where kids are being successful with this overtime. I were talking about new basic skills test so that the 3rd and 5th graders the state took a few months ago. The results are out today and I were discussing those results with Kate traffic assistant commissioner for teaching and learning at the Minnesota Department of Children families and learning Joe Nathan is now hear a joke from here to Minnesota Public Radio listeners that Joe is a director of the center for school change at the University of Minnesota's Humphrey Institute, Joe. Welcome morning Perry want to once again give the phone number out a couple of them to a folks. You want to call me with your questions or comments. And basically we would my little bottom line is what what questions did I do some parents have about all this. So 2276 thousand is the number of the Twin Cities to 276 thousand. The toll free number is one 800-2422.828 okay, Joe and I haven't talked in her a little bit about the other results looks like 40% of the state's third and fifth graders are about that level 3 which we determined seems to be determining that it's a pretty good level adequate level four heading for the new graduation standard. What what what do you make of these results indicate and the department for what? She said a couple of minutes ago and what she didn't say. The department is not using the these scores today to make a big political statement about public schools public schools. Are there still public schools are not that I think that's a very thoughtful approach to this. These are Baseline score that's education. Jargon turn. These are scores of tell us where we are now and I agree with what you said. Kate what Kate said just a couple of minutes ago that we'd like all the answers to do better. But if we don't know where youngsters are then it's difficult to know whether they're improving saw the department did not issue a press release No political figure in the state.Easton press release today. So, you know saying this is another indication of big problems with this is another indication that you know, we got to do this or that I think the department of taking a very constructive approach saying here is where we are in the department sent out this material as I understand it yesterday to 22 School District. So I think parents oughta be feeling this is useful information and I and I think they ought to check with the school districts to see you know, if they're going to get information on their youngster. We just mentioned two quick things that I noticed in in taking a quick look at this this morning. Why is that at least at the 5th grade answers 5th grade level youngsters did better in reading and math by a fairly large fairly large percentage it in public schools are 38% of the kids scored at the acceptable levels and reading only 32% of the kids card accepted levels in math in private schools with 46% of the kids were acceptable levels and reading and and 33% Masa Boston public and private schools.Differences in reading and math and I think that that Auto in car encourage people to do some some thoughtful discussion then secondly, it was interesting to me to see at the 5th grade level again in math and writing very little difference between the scores of the youngsters 5th grade scores of of math and and and writing 40 according to the department 33% of the public school kids corded what they consider to be acceptable level in math and 32% I'm sorry 33% of the private school kids score to the acceptable level 32% of the Publix. Okay, that's very close in in writing 43% of the private school kids scored it acceptable levels in writing and 42% of the public school kids. So I think that that's interesting. I'm not going to prepare to make broad conclusions or policy recommendations, but I think it's interesting that and those two areas are pretty close in the area of reading the private school kids did significantly better but in the years of math and writingI think those are interesting thing to say, I want to follow up Kate with something to Joe just said it and he said he hopes that parents will get this information can use this information. I noticed that districts are not required to to share this information with the hopes has the whole visit they will why not? Why not require them. If you go through all these spend some time to do this kind of testing why not put it out there and get that information straight to the parents who you know, you could argue need the information most of all to get this out to parents. There is no requirement. It is not required and we don't require that for anything other than the 8th grade test, which is a high-stakes tests for graduation. We have provided information to the district's that they can inserts are in close right along with the results to parents. It's unfortunate that the test scores are released after many of the students have left school for the summer and we're doing what we can to make.Sure that the information is clear to them this year, even though any test. My child takes is I want to know what the result is and I important this this testing this year really is is a little difficult to interpret for an individual student because again, it's not necessarily testing what my child has not had an opportunity to learn its testing what will be implemented in Fall. There are a couple of things I would do as a parent. First of all of you ever surprised by a test score you need to ask some questions. Was it a good day? Did you send them with a headache is she just petrified of testing is this somehow inconsistent with other tests and other information you have about your child and finally to go directly to the school and I probably know it'll be in Fall unless you have access over the summer months and ask ask your questions why soPolo in this component graduation standards of the profiles of learning you said that starts in the fall. How are we supposed to be chosen students accountable for standards that aren't yet in place information that we can use over time to monitor Improvement. This is the snapshot of today. In fact, I would suggest that this Administration in this next brings Administration together will give us a good sense of where we are now and then each school will have a compass that they can use so to speak toward those achievement of the high standards for all of their children this whole standards and the accompanying testing is really grounded in the belief that every child counts and the achievement of any student can be improved given the opportunity and it's about looking at the scores and making some smart decisions thatIncrease opportunities for learning about the basic skills test taken by 3rd and 5th graders a few months ago. The results are out today. And if you ask him questions or comments, feel free to give us a call in the Twin Cities. The number is 227-6002 276 thousand we have a toll free number for listeners outside the metro area. That number is one 800-242-2828. Let's go first to Susan in st. Paul. Good morning. Good morning. Thank you for taking my call. My son is not doing real well in school, although I have been told he's an exceptionally bright student. I know that it was difficult for him when we first moved here because you was distracted to get a new place. I think that was in 5th grade, but I'm finding that now there's some significant holes and what he understands in math.His grades have definitely been showing it and I had him tested recently at Sylvan Learning Center and confirmed with what what I believe to be true is it they were definitely something lacking in his education there from 5th grade on now, he's getting ready to go into 8th grade that you're talking about there and I'm concerned about what I can do. I have been in touch with the with his math teacher and the one that he just had in 7th grade and as good a teacher she is I know she's busy over the summer time teaching son to teaching summer school. And so it is I'm having a hard time finding what I can supply for my son to bring him up to the level that he needs to be at so you can succeed but I know that the private lines that are such as silver is just out of my reach financially. What can I do?Alright, thank you by Joel you want to take that one went a couple of suggestions first? I don't know if you have access to Internet, but the Department of Education International families learning has put up on internet sample tests. And I suspect if you call the department. They would be glad to send you a sample test kit can speak to that but my understanding from people in the department if they are willing to make a sample and I'm being told gas department of children families money is willing to make available sample test so that you can do some of the things this summer with your youngster that are going to be on that 8th grade test that that it's a he I think you said he that he is. Alright. She okay that she that she will be required to do so, you can actually do some of those things this summer I guess. Secondly I would call your youngsters school and say if there are some programs that are available for youngsters a number of school districts.Are going to offer summer programs this year for youngsters who need extra help and I'd call the superintendent's office. And I'd say, you know you this is your concern you talk with some people on the radio and they suggested that you call the superintendent's office and find out what kind of summer programs available. Also. There are some Al Recreation programs around the state that are going to devote part of what the summer program they do it, you know, they have sports and other kinds things but I have heard was a northern Minnesota yesterday and heard of some summer programs that are going to offer that I can spend part of their time on activities like soccer and baseball and softball in time part of their time helping kids in some academic area. So I would say call Dept find out get a copy of the test call your local school superintendent find out what kinds of assistance is available through the district this year and check to see if there any Recreation programs that are available. Those are three things I do and I also say I think you're absolutely right to be concerned the time to move on. This is not what I asked her 17 or 18. It's right now in the extras about reading on the 8th grade, that's a good time to move.And I feel free to call with any other questions this morning. The listener is a 2 to 76,000. The Twin Cities of the toll free number is one 800-242-2828 number of the department where people can call Will it tell you what numbers would have confused too many people will get that at the very end. So, okay remind me at the very end. I want to hear some music. I'm sure but I want to come Kate stay on the the test for a few minutes or people who just joining us to let's talk more about the test kids who don't speak English were they part of this test every student who was capable took the test and you know, this this may be a distinction between the administration in the public schools. And in the private schools. I'm the public schools were required to administer it the test to everyone who could take it and there is data that's been separated out that kind of look at different populations in and the deadSonu into the department right now that we really haven't had much of a chance to analyze it clearly though from what we can see our students who have limited English abilities in other words to speak another language primarily have a considerable amount of effort to put forth in and we need to find the right opportunities for them so that they can succeed there were exemptions to this test. They were given on a very limited basis on a one student at a time basis special education students who advised this process were very interested in having their kids included in the expectations. And in the measurement Odyssey part of the test, do we know that it did you break it down into those test performance was lower for students who were eligible for free and reduced?Lunch not to say students were eligible for free and reduced lunch can learn but that obviously we need to be doing something with the kind of opportunities were providing for those kids so that they can okay. Let's go out to the back of the phone to another call Carolyn Deephaven. Go ahead. I have the feeling that we over test our students especially here in Minnesota are kids do have excellent stringent curriculum that we have Iowa Test we have cognitive abilities test. And now we have our minimum standards testing now, we're moving on to profiles for learning. I think that we caused is adults as an adult driven system undue stress on youth by continually giving them paper and pencil test the other comment satisfied after guests to respond to that the other, I'd like to make his I do think that's a private and public school students should be tested and I think that the results should be shared on an equal basis because often times I really do believe that there is this is politically driven even though folks would say, it's not why not share the results and in make the requirements mandatory send students the night at 12% I believe those kids coming from private schools are given Are rewarded a diploma from a Minnesota high school. I'll be a private in the last pieces. We do not do enough in the area of science. We have daughters going into 7th and 10th grade. Is it the last couple of days and in fact, the science basic testing for science in the state of Minnesota is not even one of the minimum requirements and I think that's it really needs to start as early as first and second grade. Thanks for taking my comments for these tests. We we needed to change what it was students were required to know and be able to do based on what's required of them at their school after they graduate. We're working hard to make the connection between K-12 and life after. So we're a few decades ago. You might have probably about 65% of our graduates could leave school leave high school and Inter living wage jobs that doesn't happen anymore. I'm possibly 15% So we're looking more at 85% or so of our students needing to go on to some form of higher education to succeed which requires a higher level of preparation. And of course, you know, you can have the technology and all of the other requirements of the century that we're entering. So we recognize that what kids need to know and be able to do has changed over the years haven't taken much away, but we certainly added more now we've set some standards some consistent learning goals across the states of consistent expectations. How will we know? If we're heading the right way on the journey toward those standards if we don't have some tests that are very very tightly constructed so that they do represent the learning that minnesotans have decided is important for their their children. So that's why this test is very distinct from other tests that are given it doesn't compare a student to a normed group a group somewhere else has some tests to it really measure student performance against the expectations minnesotans have for their children so are middle school students over tested. Nationally youngsters get many many tests and there are certainly some parents and some students who feel that. They're they're having to me test because in addition to the state and the local Tessa course answers to take test in there and put together classes in some districts are there is rethinking going on about whether they're going to continue to use the national National test that Kate referred to because as she just said Minnesota's going to have its own set of Statewide Statewide exam. So I think that there's some rethinking going on about the national testing your collar also called the profiles of learning a test. And actually I think that that's I think we need to say a bit about that the profiles of learning in an attempt to determine whether a youngster has research skills are writing skills are other kinds of skills and they're much more of the kind of thing that one would think about if you were thinking about the the actual on the road portion of the driver's test. I'm so it is a test but it's not a paper pencil multiple choice test then I was just the last couple of days with some teachers in Bemidji who are developing. Programs were kids do research about the the brain. I'm sorry the Brainerd area and they're doing research about the Mississippi River. Not only so they can understand the water quality in the Mississippi River in the history of the Mississippi River it also so they can demonstrate research skills that the that the Department's talk about. I was in Prime recently and youngsters. They are doing research about their why their families came to the primary in Northwestern Minnesota youngsters in in Houston, Minnesota, southern Minnesota have been doing interviewing have discovered that there's a person in their communities in Houston, Minnesota who at 16 years old was a resistance fighter in the World War 2 ayat 16 fasting start. And once again, they're learning history, but not just by reading a book and answering the questions of the chapter of they're actually going out in the community interviewing people and I think the department ought to be commended for sing part of graduation is used to have these Hands-On Active Learning experiences out in the community and demonstrate writing skills demonstrate research skills by being out in the community by learning from folks in the family, so it's not the kind. Paper pencil multiple choice test that I think the caller is legitimately concerned about I think we can do too much of that paper pencil testing and I think we're moving in the right direction to combine some paper pencil testing with some actual real world experiences were talking today about the Minnesota comprehensive assessments. These were the tests are given to 3rd and 5th graders a few months ago a math and reading and some writing skills test and other results are out today. We're talking with Kate traffic assistant commissioner for teaching and learning at the State Department of Children families in learning and Joe Nathan director of the center for school change at the University of Minnesota's Humphrey Institute, and we will continue our discussion in just a moment. Coming up on sound body this week Chris Farrell's take on the weeds financial news a visit from Securities and Exchange Commission are Arthur Levitt and money manager Erica whipping her with answers to your personal finance and investment questions. This is Bob Potter inviting you to get your question in the early by calling sound biting at one. 800-537-5252 Santa Monica Saturday morning at 10 again Sunday afternoon at 5 on Minnesota Public Radio FM 91.1 in the Twin Cities. And we should the remind listeners coming up at noon today after a news headlines speech by 1996 libertarian party presidential candidate. Harry Brown. He was in Minnesota last spring at the Minnesota libertarian party convention and will here's his remarks by shortly after noon today on our mid-day broadcast quick. Look at the weather forecast today showers and thunderstorms are likely in southern Minnesota this afternoon just a chance for showers and storms in the north High's all across the region mainly in the 70s the showers and thunderstorms continue tonight in southern Minnesota and that chance continues for the north Northwestern. Minnesota will see some partial Cleary later on tonight Lowe's from the lower 50s in northern Minnesota lower 60th near Rochester tomorrow. There is a chance for some morning showers in the Southeast. How do I should be partly cloudy eyes again in the 70s the Twin Cities forecast likely likelihood of showers and thunderstorms yet this afternoon a high of 75. The chance of rain is seventy percent. Showers and thunderstorms likely tonight to Lola 55 to 60. Then tomorrow should be partly cloudy and warmer a high temperature near 80 in the Twin Cities right now. The skies are Cloudy and the temperature is 68° our discussion today about the Minnesota comprehensive assessments the test given a 3rd and 5th graders a few months ago. And if you'd like to join the conversation, feel free to give us a call. The number in the Twin Cities is 2276 thousand to 276 thousand. The toll free number is one 800-242-2828, I guess today Joe Nathan director of the center for school change at the University of Minnesota's Humphrey Institute and Cape traffic assistant commissioner for teaching and learning at the State Department of Children families and learning and we hope it does give us a call into this with your questions and comments. Okay, tell let's talk briefly about it. Did you break it down again back to this test? We know that the Suburban results in suburban school district city city districts in all state. Most smallest schools have been different other tests that the case here. If you look at that very School District stacked up getting the data so that we could recognize the urban school districts apart from the rest of the state and actually the Minneapolis and st. Paul schools show that about c5280 82% or so of their students are in the 8th of first and second level, but if you think of it this way and you look at levels 2 and 3. Levels 2 and 3 mean kind of close to the mark but with work to do and knowing that these standards will be implemented in Fall. They've got about 48% of their students at those two levels and a few percent of the students also at level 4. So they've got work to do with the high standards as well as they did with the basics but interesting ly with written composition, they did better than they did in the math and reading which was the pattern throughout the state and I written composition is a pretty complex kind of work. So from that standpoint, it's encouraging lot of work to do and you responded but I want to look at something the in the 5th grade comparison between private schools and public schools. There was a huge disparity in the reading results 72% the private schools and 38 Percent for the public schools that I think you said earlier that you didn't see much of a big difference between the private public schools, but isn't there isn't there really in specially in the in the reading results? Well, I was I was looking at that I looked at 5th grade and in the fifth grade in math, there was very little difference one point difference between 5th graders and private and public schools. And in an in writing there was one point difference there appears to be a larger difference in reading this. I need to take a very careful look at the figures cuz I know we had talked about 72% and I looked again. It looks like it wasn't as large but there is there is some difference in Reading. Yes relatively little one point difference in in math and writing but we're talking also talking about somewhat different groups of kids, you know our two daughters and I went to the Saint Paul Saints game last night and you know at the end of nine innings at the end of two and a half hours. The results are clear that the Saints won. To the one that was great. I wish things were as clear in in test scores. I think that the colors you had so far have I have had exactly the right kind of spirit? Let's take a look at what this says about my youngster and what can we do to improve it? Kate said earlier that she hopes that all your answers will do better and I think that a couple of years ago there was a lot of concern about what these tests near the creek and I don't see any evidence at all this taken care of the creek and I think they have said to do people always say we need to pay more attention to what our youngsters are doing. And I think that's progress. Okay. Let's go back to the phone Jim in St. Louis Park the morning with all due respect your gift and I do respect them. I have the number of a problems are very different perspective. I guess it's good first watch the grass like, mr. Nathan on his latest published article in the June Phi Delta kappan on NCAA standard. Although I do disagree with my Nest to I would also suggest people look at the May issue of Phi Delta kappan, which has an article by weight Nelson. Who's Professor Winona State who is entitled to make a truth about Minnesota graduation standards. He happens to be on the left. I have to be on the right. There is across the political Spectrum some criticism of the profile Bernie the issue I would like to raise is this I believe false distinction between having a good test and the idea that it's not based on North this is a normed universe. For example, the reason we know the run a four-minute miles really good. It's because of the curve performances of people over a long time and there's been a lot of controversy. I'm trying to make this as simple as I can but there's a lot of controversy and I think your guests realize this between State constructed test and test that are nationally normed and the problem was it when you don't nationally-normed path is they tend not to have nearly as high reliability for example in Kentucky used a similar State constructed test a researcher compared that to the National Federer. Sample and found almost absolutely no correlation at all between the reading levels found on the state test and the ones found in the federal cast what's similar student? I met you yet. They've been heading out millions of dollars and teacher bonuses in Kentucky. I guess I would just challenged the idea of using test that have this limited psychometric reliability to be using them and I think people read more confused. Your Screen Rant me not to confuse people that I'm not trying to but I'm sure I'll people confuse different kind of basic test the 8th grade test and these tests which were supposedly based on the profile which is supposedly not a curriculum and yet we still have a test at the real issue here about whether this is the proper testing you thank you and I just want to say, you know a lot about what he called The Barbershop test and that simply means in all the average person there doesn't exist. Meaning to them. Are we I mean, I must say I sit here and I wonder are we are we getting to that the Nugget here? What are we making this clear to me? Why is it so difficult? It seems that were that we're not getting to the nub of this. Let me try to use a couple of examples we say in this in this state that there are certain things that we want people to know and be able to do in order to get a driver's license. We say that they have to score at a certain level on both the writing test the paper pencil multiple-choice, although I recently was doing it with my one of my ex's Mouse on a computer. But anyway, there's that there is a there is a essentially a written test and then there's an on the on the road test and we don't care about National normally don't care what percentage of young House of of people can pass at a certain level around the country. We don't look at it or what percentage of people score 80% or 85% We're just concerned do people before they get a driver's license. Can they pass? Play certain level and I think that's the right way to do it. I mean we wanted we're trying to decide in the state. What are the skills and reading and writing in math? And some other is the exercise I have and there's enormous a discussion about this around the country and people come to very different kinds of of decision. I think one of the things that we've done in Minnesota is to say to people all of us take what are the skills of students out of hat, for example, the state has said after in normal summon after literally hundreds of conversations around the State of the State of said and I think wisely after Consulting both with testingxperts and with box and barber shops and beauty shops and you know all the place the state of said we think that by the time of youngster is 15 years old she or he oughta be able to read an average newspaper article answer some questions about it. That's basically the reading test. That's a judgment call. Ultimately. It's not it's not a call that you can look up in a book and say what this is exactly right? That's a decision that people in Minnesota have made and I think that's the right decision now callers a very thoughtful colors let such as in people. Is the person who just spoke said, you know, he would like to see how do youngsters around the country do on this and that's another part of what we could do. But what we have basically decided to do in Minnesota is to ask people throughout the state both testingxperts. And in other folks who care about education. What is it soon as I know and be able to do at certain certain grade levels. And what is it? They Oughta Know is Kate said earlier. What is it? They got to know by the time they graduate in order to function as an effective citizen. It isn't just about getting a job. It's partly about getting a job in order to function as an effect of citizens. So we have identified certain specific skills and knowledge of students out of have and we have been less concerned about comparing Minnesota youngsters with other people around the country and that's a decision that through the political process was made. I think a cape that went to levels talks about that the students who did score lower could use a more focused approach. it's become the Target and you know, we use the term standards and really but we've described as what children need to know and be able to do as a result of connecting what they're learning in K-12 and making sure that it's relevant and important to what they need to do afterwards for academics for replacing for personal success and satisfaction. We describe some some things. I need to know and be able to do we call those standards and they become the Target that causes you to focus your resources. The kids are on a journey, you know where they're going to end up and it helps a lot to focus the instruction for students and in using the testing it helps to also for an individual student or four students in a particular program or School identify here are some real strength. We don't need to we need to keep the strong here are some areas where we need to make some important decisions about how to change the way we do business so that the kids will achieve at that high standard level. You're just a n o u have to leave Jolla. So if you are on the Gentleman Just referred to another article and educational magazine, but I think that this this gentleman, who is it at the Winona State said he really didn't think that kids out of them have to demonstrate certain skills and knowledge before graduation and I guess I'd say I disagree with that and I think I'll pull show the vast majority of people in the state do disagree and you know, we have freedom of thought in this country, but I'm I'm pleased that both Republicans and Democrats in the state decided that before young people graduate from high school. I have certain skills and knowledge, I think and we had a great debate over the last eight or nine years about what those skills and knowledge to be and I think that we will continue to refine those I help to start work in 1971 in a public school still around 27 years later and that had that debate in 1971. What is it that youngsters? I don't know and be able to do and several times over the last 25 years. Those skills have been and I've been refined and I think we'll continue to do that. But I think we have made a very important decision in this state which is its dudes out of know certain things and they ought to be able to do certain things before they graduate in and pull suggested about 75% of the people in the state agree with you this to say everybody does not but most people do the other I guess. The other thing is that I think it'd be very important for people to take a look at what's happened with their own youngsters and also over the next three to five years on this AR things improving I've had several calls from people who want me to comment this morning and say this is terrific or this is awful and I think what we ought to do is to say this just gives us information about where we are. Now. The next question is what does it mean for your youngster? And the next question is what does it mean overall over the next 3 to 5 years for your interest and state are we going to make progress and I think since we know since it's coming more and more information about what folks are expected to do yes answers are going to make progress if we use certain thoughtful ideas, which we may talk about in a minute or two for your time Joe Nathan. Center for school change at the University of Minnesota's Humphrey Institute. We're also talking with Kate traffic assistant commissioner for teaching and learning at the State Department of Children families and learning let's take another call Linda in St. Paul your question or comment St. Paul and I am a school psychologist in training testing. And before I used to test. I always look very careful at the technical data. I asked on the internet to get the technical data both about the standards in a comprehensive from the state and was told that the technical manual would not be available until the summer and I would like to specifics if I were to get this test again to the same sample how reliable is a test how valid is a projector from the comprehensive that the third and fifth to the high-profile for learning that they must master in high school. When I looked at the cast of Step school students are being tested the reading for example had a huge written component how good then is it a predictor of reading a reading practice of the students? Concerned that I'm going to be having to make decisions about students and I don't have true valid predictors are technical information to base decisions on I'd like to know about interrater reliability. How were these tests actually scored? I don't think we can make with decisions about individual students unless I have the technical data available to me contracted with a national firm to do the test construction and the scoring of the test. The actual specifications for the test came out of work from Educators and assessment people in school districts throughout the state and the specifications are are available the this fall we will be doing what's called and I'm saying this for your call or this is for you and if we're going to be doing vertical equating which will allow us to create a Continuum from the third grade test through what we Ultimately be the high school test. But at least through the 8th grade test which will help us to make some connections in terms of predicting student performance following this subject killer snapshot on a given test day. Did you go in on the degree of difficulty of these tests compared to test that have been given on these subjects that are given often normally these tests consist of both a multiple-choice kind of question. Where you pick a b c d and some open-ended where the answer has to come from the student and B&B put on the paper. They were both types of questions on their the reading material had a range of several grades so that we could measure students who exceeded the expectations as well as those who were below expectation and things like coming up with the right with the correct change or being able to estimate how long it's going to take to get from here to there. So you're on time out rather practical things to compare to other test is kind of risky because we really based these on specific nose and do is from the high standards in math and reading as well as some of the inquiry Charles and educator. Grades K through 12, which is rather unusual and I'm just wondering if in your testing you are dealing with a fact that no two children are exactly alike and that there are individual differences and we assume so often that people are normal. There is no such thing as normal and that students have learning difficulties fear difficulties home difficulties. Which interfere or 10 leave them fearful of taking a test? They can also make it make it so they do not learn as well as a skill that you need to know in third grade. Some kids aren't going to know until twelfth grade because of a biological function and I'm wondering if in the testing field year. Where do you want to address that Wonder? Well a couple of quick thoughts. I certainly agree that with the collar that they're many differences among us as we have three children and two of them are twins in the love all of them, but they're quite different people and I've spent about 27 years of public education and certainly have seen many of the same kinds of things at this caller has seen the department does not and the legislature does not require youngsters to quote past the third grade or quote pass the fifth grade test and I agree that there's some youngsters were going to move at different rates, but the department and and the legislature has said Answer the political process that there's certain things that kids. I don't know and be able to do by the time they get by the time they graduate from high school, and I've already said I think that's a wise decision. Totally agree that youngsters learn in different ways are one of the things I think we've done in Minnesota that's quite wise is that we created different kinds of school. We have Montessori Public Schools. We have opened schools. We have very strict traditional schools and we have seen Time After Time the answers will do well in one kind of school and not so will another so we've offered public school choice, which I think is a y a very wise idea we're learning that kids do better in smaller schools. And we've certainly learned that that some youngsters are fearful test. And at the same time that's are a fact of life. We allow somebody said to me recently Minnesota land of second third and fourth chances. That's that's true. We we allow youngsters to try these things but we do say there are certain skills and the knowledge that you thought I have and I think is K2 said earlier. It was very encouraging to see that when we make changes in schools when we work both make changes in classrooms, and we work with families that youngsters from very trouble challenging backgrounds do every bit as well as youngsters from middle and upper income. So I think Can make progress and I certainly agree on that. The only thing to do is the testing is not the be-all and the end-all that that we have to do other things besides give tests. And and I think the state is is suggesting. We do other things as well. Just about a minute left in the number that parents can call up in and really this is the number this parents are going to need to understand this. What's the phone number that the parents can call or anyone interested to get more information on these tests? Forgive me at Department of Children families when they're going to give the general number because I don't have another number in my head. It's to 96610 for calling and wanting to know understand this really get to it. What the what's the what's the best what's the best short advice that you would give a parent and what can you tell them just to just to wind up here? I guess to take some time with the guy that comes along with your information. If you don't get it with your test results it certainly available at the Department of Children families and learning and that questions beyond the general really need to go back to to the district's they would have the information to be able to help you understand what those scores mean alongside of the other tests and information that they have on your child. Learning Joe Nathan director of the center for school change at the University of Minnesota's Humphrey Institute then thanks for our callers as well. Say just a few weeks remain in Minnesota public radio's fiscal year, and we are counting on you to help us reach our goal of 85,000 members. The momentum is building, but we still need 8000 listeners to become new members or renew your membership. Remember members are our single largest source of Revenue. So call us now if you get a chance at 800-227-2811, 1 800-227-2811 and thank you very much for calling. It is now 5 minutes before 12 noon. Let's hear from Garrison Keillor and The Writer's Almanac.