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[MUSIC PLAYING] RACHEL REABE: Good morning, and welcome to a special Mainstreet Radio show. I'm Rachel Reabe. We're broadcasting live from the Minnesota Public Radio studios of KNBJ and KCRB in Bemidji. This Northern Minnesota town is gearing up for one of its big weekends of the year, deer hunting, which opens a half hour before sunrise on Saturday here in the Bemidji area and across most of Minnesota.

We'll be discussing deer hunting during our two hour show today. With almost half a million hunters going after a million deer, hunting is a big deal in Minnesota. Our phone lines are open for your questions and comments. If you live in outstate Minnesota, you can call us 1-800-537-525 or 227-6000 in the Twin Cities.

My guests in the studio today are Jim Bryant, regional wildlife supervisor with the Minnesota Department of natural resources, and Joe Wood, executive director of Minnesota Deer Hunters Association. Good morning, gentlemen.

JOE WOOD: Good morning.

RACHEL REABE: We are approaching the zero hour. I'm sure things began to gear up and excitement begins to build as we move to the opening of deer hunting on Saturday. Let's first get an overview of what this year's hunt looks like. Jim, what can you tell us about the deer herd in Minnesota, 1997?

JIM BRYANT: I think you have to describe it and break it down into different portions of the state. If you look in the extreme southeastern part of the state, we're looking at a few increase or slightly increased number of permits available. We're looking at as good or a better hunt in that part of the state. Similarly, in extreme southwestern Minnesota, we'll look at populations that are equivalent to last year for the most part, and hunting success will be about the same.

In the northern part of the state now, what we've got is populations generally in the forested portion of the state. Zone 1 in particular, populations are about half of what they were two years ago in 1995. And similarly, in the Northern portion of zone 2, we would be looking at populations reduced from 1995. Hunting success in the forested portion of the state should be about the same, or perhaps slightly less than last year.

RACHEL REABE: Which was not a great year anyway.

JIM BRYANT: Well, it was-- compared to 1995, certainly, it wasn't as good as 1995.

RACHEL REABE: So 1995 was a high year in terms of number of deer out, number of permits issued, number of animals shot.

JIM BRYANT: In terms of animals shot, we had, I think, 1993 was the year where we actually shot more. But in terms of just number of deer available, fall of 1995 probably was-- statewide was probably the highest deer numbers that we've seen in at least 25 years.

RACHEL REABE: The low deer numbers, Joe, in this part of the state, totally the result of two bad winters.

JOE WOOD: I think there's a lot of factors that go into dictating what the size of the deer herd. Obviously, the last two winters have been pretty significantly severe on the deer. I believe the estimates were 30% to 40% losses after the 1995 winter. And this last winter, obviously, we lost a few more deer because of the winter conditions, again, although it moderated somewhat in February. And so there was certainly an improvement there.

But again, I think there are other factors that are having somewhat of an impact. And of course, those are issues that we are constantly aware of and dealing with, such as the wolf issue, which is having an impact on some of the deer in Northeastern Minnesota, certainly where the wolf pack is considerably large and where it is increasing and so forth. So that is having an impact on some of the deer. Other depredation also takes place such as bears and bobcats, et cetera. And they also have an impact.

And when deer herds are down from the winter conditions, I think that only exacerbates the problem when you have additional predation and so forth, because it does have certainly a much greater impact on a smaller percentage of deer that are remaining. So those things all have an impact.

And I think as we look at the future of hunting in the state of Minnesota, of course, our organization continues to look at how we might continue to improve the habitat, which is only going to help the deer in the long-term. We do want to look at it as a long-term issue. We're going to have cycles of deer populations going up and down, certainly over periods of time like this.

RACHEL REABE: Our phone numbers today, if you are outside the Twin Cities, please call us at 1-800-537-5252. If yo are in the Twin cities, you can join us 227-6000. We have Gary from Ely on the phone. Good morning, Gary. Gary, you can go ahead with your question, please.

AUDIENCE: Good morning.

RACHEL REABE: Good morning.

AUDIENCE: I have-- it's-- well, I have a question for your guest. I sort of just don't get it. I mean, I wonder if they could help me out. What-- I just don't get the idea of going out and shooting a deer. And I wonder if they-- your guests might help me out on that.

RACHEL REABE: So I guess we could assume, Gary, that you are a non-hunter.

AUDIENCE: Well, I don't hunt, no, but I mean, I don't have any problem with somebody going out and doing it. I just don't get it.

RACHEL REABE: Joe, help him get it.

JOE WOOD: Well, I guess one of the things is, obviously, it's a tradition that has been in place for a long time. First of all, there's basically the scientific or management reasons for harvesting deer. And that reason is certainly a significant to the managers of populations. Population levels need to be controlled on a regular basis. And I think that's one of the things that the hunt does in terms of controlling numbers of deer.

But the other thing is, certainly, it provides a lot of opportunities for individuals to, first of all, experience the tradition of hunting, experience the out of doors, and certainly be involved in a process that gets them out and involved with nature. And I think it's a connection you make to the actual wildlife that you're pursuing and the hunt itself, which is also a challenge to an individual. So all of those things play into the process of hunting And what we do.

RACHEL REABE: We're actually seeing less hunters this year than we did last year. And last year, they were seeing less hunters than the year before. Is that because hunting is losing in popularity or is that more a result, Jim, what would you say, Is that more a result of diminished deer numbers and people thinking, I'm not going out there to sit-in this cold weather and be able to shoot only a buck or perhaps to see nothing on four legs.

JIM BRYANT: Well, I think that it's primarily an indication of the reduced deer numbers that we experienced compared to 1995. Through the first six seasons of the 1990s, We had pretty level deer hunting license sales right around that 430-- 35,000 figure. So it wasn't declining before 1995. And then with the reduced deer population that everybody was aware of prior to 1996, we did see a drop in deer license sales and we conclude it was because of the severe winter.

RACHEL REABE: Do you agree with that, Joe?

JOE WOOD: Yes, I do. I think one of the issues is, as you look at deer hunting license sales, you'll also notice that the numbers of multi-zone licenses, which allowed people to go out of the Northeastern zone and hunt bucks in basically the most of the state was-- it has increased over the last two years. And I think that's a result of individuals making decisions that they would hunt or have opportunities or want opportunities to hunt in other areas where they might have a better chance of seeing a buck. So I think those kinds of things have happened at the same time. But hunters are obviously going to go where their success rate is going to be the highest. And one of the things they look at in terms of that is, is where those deer populations are the highest, too so--

JIM BRYANT: I would think for the gentleman who's wondering, you know, he just doesn't get it, perhaps the latter part of the show when we're interviewing the hunters and they're going to be describing, you know, all of what they do and all of what it means to them, I think perhaps they might be able to relate an idea of what it means to them and what it's about.

RACHEL REABE: Let's shift our focus and talk for a minute about deer hunting regulations. In my reading, I came across the 1858 that the first deer law was established in Minnesota. And it was a huge season, five months long, something people would love today, from September to February with no limit on deer. And then we saw as we went on in time becoming more and more restrictions, dividing the state up into zones, different kinds of permits. For us non-hunters, it is a dizzying array of numbers and permits. Could one of you simplify it for us?

JIM BRYANT: No.

[LAUGHS]

I-- I think that basically it was a lot easier back, even in the 1960s, perhaps, of setting seasons when we weren't really monitoring populations. We had hunting pressure in a neighborhood of 200,000 hunters statewide, and there was a pretty good deer population throughout the '60s, early in the 1950s. We just pretty much had a deer season, opened season. We didn't do much monitoring of the population.

As a result of the '68, '69 winter, we had a severe reduction in deer numbers at that time. People got all concerned about what's happening to the deer herd. In order for us with increasing deer hunters and expanding threats to the habitat or declining habitat base in most of the forested portion of the state-- there was very little logging going on, which creates good deer habitat.

In order for us to manage the deer herd under that situation, we needed to get more specific on deer numbers. We needed to divide the state up so we could manage certain ecosystems better. The deer population in the ag zone, the agricultural part of the state certainly is different than it is in the forest. And then you add on to that the demands of hunters, increasing demands by archery hunters, muzzleloader seasons, things like that, all work to complicate-- make our job of putting together regulations more complicated.

RACHEL REABE: Our phone number this morning 1-800-537-5252, if you are outside the Twin Cities. For listeners in the Twin Cities, they can call us at 227-6000. We have Bill from Carleton on the line with us now. Good morning, Bill.

AUDIENCE: Good morning. I've got a question. Well, I used to hunt around the-- I've got a comment first, I guess. I used to hunt around the Duluth area up above Duluth in the cotton area, which was really hard hit in the last couple of years. A number of people that I have hunted with in the past as well as I have just decided either we're not going to hunt or we're going to hunt somewhere else.

And I've chosen the latter. I'm hunting over by, I think it's zone 4A, Fergus Falls. And I put in for a management permit over there and I got one. My question is if I see a big doe, and I decide that I want to take the doe-- the management permit is does only, I understand. Can I do that and reserve the other license for a buck?

JIM BRYANT: Yes, you can.

AUDIENCE: OK. I guess that answers my question then. Thank you very much.

RACHEL REABE: Do we see more and more people switching where they have traditionally hunted? I heard somebody say for the first time this year, instead of pack up your blaze orange, we're going North. People are saying, pack up your blaze orange, we're going South.

JOE WOOD: Well, I think part of the issue is traditionally the Northeastern part of the state or zone 1, basically, and portions of zone 2 have been the traditional hunting areas. And probably that has to do with more land ownership than anything else. The large acreages of public land ownership and so forth have increased the opportunities for hunters not to have to worry about seeking permission from all the areas where they hunt.

They can hunt on national forest, on state forest, on county forest lands. They also even have the availability of industrial forests, which are open to the public, if they're under the tree growth tax law, which most of them are. So I think those implications make the Northeastern part of the state anywhere-- anywhere a place to for deer hunters to go.

And traditionally, there have been the camps. And of course, the idea of going to a deer camp and having the opportunity and the camaraderie that is associated with deer camp hunting. And I think that has been all normally associated with the forested regions. Our percentages of hunters in, at least, in the past have significantly been higher in zone 1 and portions of zone 2 than they have in the rest of the state, I think simply because of that tradition. But again, as deer herds increase in population in southern parts--

RACHEL REABE: Hunters follow the herd.

JOE WOOD: Yes, they follow the herd.

RACHEL REABE: After just saying that people are heading South to hunt. Of course, our next caller is heading North to hunt. We have Mike on the air with us. Good morning.

AUDIENCE: Hi, good morning. Say, my question is, I'm wondering if you guys could tell me for the last two years we haven't had doe permits in zone 1. And, you know, my question is, you know, [INAUDIBLE] why don't you cancel a season for one year? If the doe permit or the doe numbers are so low, why don't you cancel a season?

RACHEL REABE: Now, Mike, would you prefer that?

AUDIENCE: Would I prefer it?

RACHEL REABE: Would you prefer that there was no season instead of a bucks only season?

AUDIENCE: I think-- I think most hunters, and I guess I would just guess at this, but I would guess that most hunters would want to increase their herd instead of going one more extra year. But I think I'm skeptical of the DNR canceling a season because it's such a money revenue thing that I don't think they're able to do that. I think back in the '60s, they did it one year, but I maybe mistaken.

RACHEL REABE: Jim, let's have you respond to that, Jim Bryant from the Department of natural resources.

JIM BRYANT: Well, as far as closing the season, we did have a series of meetings this summer in zone 1 to address that very question. And what we found in those meetings throughout that part of the state is that the majority of people-- most people would prefer to have the hunting season remain open, given that we are going ahead with the season and it's going to be bucks only.

Keep in mind that there's more than just the money issue, much more than just the money issue. That isn't something that we look at when we're setting the season. We look at whether or not biologically the population can withstand the hunting season. If you go back to the early 1970s, we did have a closed season in 1971. That was the result of a significantly reduced deer population after the winters of '68, '69, and '69 and '70.

And we initiated-- in 1976, the deer herd was still much reduced. Beginning in '77, I think it was, we went statewide with our limited antler-less harvest, which is pretty much bucks only hunt unless we open up permit areas for antlers permits. I think we've demonstrated that we can have a hunting season on bucks only limiting the antlers harvest and increase the deer herd relatively rapidly.

I think that if you look at the harvest in 1976 of around 30,000 animals, and you look at it for the first six years of the 1990s, we averaged 200,000 deer. We did that by having bucks only season in much of the forested portion of the state in the late '70s with no antlers permits.

Another factor that we consider about that is that if we in fact, close the season in zone 1, where are those hunters going to go. There's going to be a tremendous influx in hunters, perhaps to other parts of the state. Those hunters in the other parts of the state probably aren't going to appreciate that.

AUDIENCE: Well, what's your forecast for this year?

JIM BRYANT: In zone 1, what we're predicting is best guess is that we will have a reduced harvest by about 8% to 10% in zone 1 compared to 1996.

AUDIENCE: Really, OK. All right.

RACHEL REABE: Joe, would-- thank you for your call this morning. Your association, do you have a position on whether closing a season would be more advantageous to the deer herd than just having buck only season.

JOE WOOD: Again, that was something that we addressed along with the department in terms of the early meetings that they held in zone 1. And of course, I attended several of those and several of our members did have input into those meetings. I think it was a determination that this is what the public wanted.

And obviously, we try to represent all the deer hunters, although our organization is only 18,200. But we are trying to get a good feel for where the deer hunters are going. And with 450,000 hunters in the state, you obviously have a lot of opinions about how these things should be dealt with.

And I think, again, it's based on what the department has done in the past and what their knowledge of the biology of what's taking place in the zone. I think they made the decision that what the public actually wished for. And I think that's something that has to be taken into consideration at all times so--

RACHEL REABE: We're talking deer hunting with Jim Bryan of the Department of Natural Resources and Joe Wood of the Minnesota Deer Hunters Association. Lynn, from Saint Paul, good morning.

AUDIENCE: Hi, I have a-- I have a comment and maybe you can correct me, if I'm wrong. But it seems to me that trophy hunting for those big, huge, great bucks that are in really good shape would not be in the best interest of the deer population as a whole.

JOE WOOD: Well, again, just most deer hunting, and of course, if you're pursuing individual animals and that takes place certainly with archery hunters and with firearms hunters, but if you're pursuing individual animals, that's obviously a process of the hunt and a process of individual hunting. In terms of the biology, I think Jim could probably give you a little bit better answer from the perspective of the population numbers.

JIM BRYANT: Well, again, we went back to the early '70s-- or excuse me, mid '70s and we had the limited antlers harvest, bucks only hunts. And we were able to increase the deer population statewide as a result of that. I think we've demonstrated that you can have hunting seasons on the buck population.

As far as-- I think perhaps the caller is referring to some genetic benefits of not hunting big bucks. I think that keep in mind that those big bucks are breeding the deer, breeding the doe's in the fall of the year, not like they're being taken out of the population before the breeding occurs.

And they are passing their genes on. And even the smaller deer do carry genetic traits that do call for big antlers. And as far as for the population as a whole, if you're looking at it from numbers wise, again, we went from about 400,000 deer in 1976 statewide to about 1.2 to 1.4 million in 1995. I think the population and larger bucks benefited by that.

RACHEL REABE: And how could you ever enforce it? Can you picture yourself saying to a group of hunters, here's your license, go out, but if it's really huge, don't shoot at it?

JOE WOOD: Well, that ends up being a real-- it would be a critical issue in terms of enforcement, even in terms of enforcing the number of points. And there has been discussions about those. And certainly some other populations of-- I know in elk hunting, for instance, they do control a number of points that you can take legally in some states in the West.

And of course, those are issues that come up all the time. And again, the department, in their discussions with us, has felt that the process that they're using now is the best process for the continuation of deer hunting in the state that at the level we have it now.

RACHEL REABE: I just have to ask you this question before we go on. The number of points in a buck's antlers, it's not like rings on a tree where it makes them older because I know they shed their antlers every year and grow a new set. So what is it? Just, they're just bigger. Do they grow bigger every year? With the next year, would they be even bigger yet, or do you just have your finite number of points and you produce those every year?

JOE WOOD: Well, based on some of-- in fact, they've done that with a number of deer that they've had held in captivation and of course, taken the shed antlers off of those deer every year and looked at those. And of course, you'll see a obviously the trend is very similar. The deer will have a very similar set of antlers each year.

And they will reach a peak at a point in time or at an age. And then they will decline very rapidly as that deer ages and gets closer to death, a natural death. And so you'll see that process happening. And I think after about a three year-- two to three year period, their antlers will start to get to a level where it's going to be pretty close to their peak and they'll probably peak out. I don't know, Jim, at five or six years or--

JIM BRYANT: Well, it depends on, as far as size of antlers, it depends on what part of the state you're talking about. If you're in Northeastern Minnesota, a year old buck-- a yearling, we call them-- a year and a half old buck is going to have likely spikes, maybe four horns. That same aged animal down in Southeastern Minnesota is going to have probably six points, perhaps eight points. It's going to have a rack. And the next year, down in Southeast--

RACHEL REABE: Better feeding opportunities, better nutrition--

JIM BRYANT: Better quality food is probably it. Milder winters, you know, less strain on the animals. And then in Southeast Minnesota, that animal in at 2 and 1/2 years old likely would have 10 points, five on each side, perhaps genetic wise, or it may be a trait that it only has four on each side.

And so once they get that, then they continue growing. And yet that's an animal that's 2 and 1/2 in the Northeast might not get to be 10 points until its third year. So it depends on where you're at. But once they get 10 points, it's no indication of age. But the antlers generally, as the animal gets older, do get larger.

RACHEL REABE: And in 1918, apparently the record buck was shot in Beltrami--

JIM BRYANT: [INAUDIBLE]

RACHEL REABE: And-- and largest not by weight but by--

JIM BRYANT: Boone and Crockett score.

RACHEL REABE: Right. And so--

JIM BRYANT: The mass of antlers [INAUDIBLE]

RACHEL REABE: How massive were those antlers in 1918 that nobody has been able to match it?

JIM BRYANT: I think the score on that [INAUDIBLE] buck was 202 points Boone and Crockett. And--

RACHEL REABE: If you were to translate that for somebody like me, what would that what would that guy look like?

JIM BRYANT: Obviously, it's the length of each beam of antler added to the height of each tine that's on the antler added to the circumference in five-- four locations around the antler added to the distance between the antlers in inches.

RACHEL REABE: Thanks, Jim. I figured that out. We have Jim from Walker on the phone with us. Go ahead, Jim. Good morning,

AUDIENCE: Rachel, I'm a Sheriff in Minnesota, and this is just a good opportunity to once again remind hunters of some of the things that it's supposed to be an enjoyable time. But many times there's a lot of common sense that sort of disappears. It seems like each year we end up with some awful tragedies during the deer hunting season.

Somebody falls out of a tree stand, somebody gets lost, and we just want to remind them of some common sense things to do. For instance, take matches, take a compass, and if you get lost, please stay put. Help will be on the way. But if you're walking all over the woods, you're very difficult to find.

RACHEL REABE: And Sheriff Dawson, you're in Cass county, which is big deer hunting territory, do you gear up? Do you have more deputies on as we come up to this weekend? And do you find more of the accidents actually happen in the act of hunting or is it more after the hunt gatherings that produces accidents?

AUDIENCE: I think it's a combination of both. And starting tomorrow night, of course, traffic will pick up. There's an awful lot of alcohol consumption that takes place. And again, when that takes place, common sense just doesn't prevail. And there are some awful tragedies that occur both while traveling to the hunting ground, and while you're hunting, and on your way home. I've seen some awful, awful disappointed families and just some real bad tragedies.

RACHEL REABE: So be careful this time of year. Thank you, Sheriff Dawson.

AUDIENCE: You're welcome.

RACHEL REABE: Bob Kobilka is the owner of Kobilka's Northwood's Sporting Goods in Bemidji. And this is a very busy time of year, if you are in the sporting goods business and especially a store like Kobilka's. We have Bob on the phone with us today. Bob, how do these days leading up to hunting, how do they rank in terms of busiest days of the year?

BOB KOBILKA: Well, Rachel, these are the five preceding days prior to the opening of deer season are by far our largest days of the year. The activity picks up immensely starting on Monday.

RACHEL REABE: And then you sort of culminate on Friday, perhaps?

BOB KOBILKA: Yeah, we peak-- we peak out on Friday. Of course, our area hunters and people coming to town are just like anybody else. They wait until the last minute to get stuff. And we are just extremely busy that day.

RACHEL REABE: So Friday is the big day. Tomorrow Kobilka's is going to be humming.

BOB KOBILKA: Yeah, we'll be jumping. We have all of our 13 people on staff will be here working extremely hard.

RACHEL REABE: Bob, what will be the biggest items that will be sold tomorrow. What do people come in for?

BOB KOBILKA: Well, typically Friday-- your Friday deer hunter is he's going to be looking at the Weather. He's going to need-- if it's going to be cold, he's going to need that cold weather gear, Sorel boots, orange clothing, heavyweight orange clothing. They'll pick up hand warmers. And more importantly, they're picking up their license.

RACHEL REABE: OK. And also ammunition, will they--

BOB KOBILKA: Ammunition is the real, real avid hunter will have his ammo. He has his firearm all sighted in. But those last minute guys, you know, they're going to be coming in looking for ammo so--

RACHEL REABE: And I understand, Bob, even for the hunters that are passing by your store and don't need anything, they're stopping in for the free chili.

BOB KOBILKA: Right, yeah, we have county event every year. This is my seventh year in business here. And every year, we have a free chili feed. And it's really quite an event.

RACHEL REABE: How much chili might you be going through tomorrow?

BOB KOBILKA: Well, we're going to go-- well, we've got 15 to 25 gallons already lined up. So we should be in good shape.

RACHEL REABE: Bob, the fact that it is buck only season here in the Bemidji area and the fact that the deer numbers are way down, are people who come into your store, are they kind of doom and gloom or do those people still have a spring in their step? Don't they care if the deer aren't there. They're still going to get one.

BOB KOBILKA: I think there's certainly, if I called it, I would call it a case of the trudges. You know, they're coming in and they're just not feeling real happy about it. You know, three years ago, when our population would peak, everybody was all excited and there was a fervor in the air. And now, it's just basically guys are getting together and saying, well, you know, we're going to go to the deer camp and do what we normally do and have a good time. And if we shoot a deer, well, we get one. If we don't, we don't. You know, it's-- the excitement is just not there.

RACHEL REABE:

JIM BRYANT: Now, hunting opens a half hour before sunrise on Saturday. You are also a registration station, Bob. That means that when people shoot a deer, if they shoot a deer, they can bring that animal back to your place. Then what happens?

BOB KOBILKA: Right, we're a registration station, and we always, if the customer asks, we'll certainly weigh the deer and we give them a little button congratulating them for shooting a deer. And we have a big standard out in the front. We take pictures and do a big production and there's many times when we're out there weighing deer there's traffic cruising by the front of our store and it's stopping traffic. And it's really an attention getter.

RACHEL REABE: So watch out traveling North in Bemidji, if someone doesn't stop suddenly in front of you to see how big that--

BOB KOBILKA: How big was that deer, anyway?

RACHEL REABE: What size of animals do you expect to be weighing in on Saturday? And what time does the first one usually come in?

BOB KOBILKA: The first one will probably come rolling in somewhere around probably 9:00 or 10:00. Expectations, the deer population here, of course, is down. And you know, I-- this is a-- I've been behind the counter now for 22 years. This is the first time I've seen a season like this where it's, you know, strictly bucks only.

And I really don't know what to expect. I would imagine there's some nice six, eight pointers out there that's on average four to-- you know four, six, eight points. If archery has any indication on what we've registered, it's not going to be good. We haven't done nearly as many archery registrations that we have in the past so--

RACHEL REABE: Thank you for your time this morning, Bob.

BOB KOBILKA: OK, very good.

RACHEL REABE: Have a wonderful day tomorrow. We've been talking--

BOB KOBILKA: Oh, it'll be exciting.

RACHEL REABE: We've been talking to Bob Kobilka at Kobilka's Northwood's Sporting Goods in Bemidji. We'll be back with this special Mainstreet Radio broadcast in a moment.

BOB POTTER: Hi, Bob Potter here. And I know it's important for you to make the most of your hard earned dollars, whether you're putting money away for your retirement or saving for a dream vacation, you can get expert advice about both in a special two hour edition of Sound Money this weekend with Chris Farrell and Erica Wittlinger plus Rick Steves, Ann Schulman, and Stephen Colwell. Sound Money Saturday morning at 9:00 on Minnesota Public radio, KNOW FM 91.1 in the Twin Cities.

RACHEL REABE: MPR's Mainstreet Radio coverage of rural issues is supported by the Blandin foundation, committed to strengthening communities through grant making, leadership training, and convening.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

You are listening to a special Mainstreet Radio broadcast. We are coming to you live from the Minnesota Public Radio studios of KNBJ and KCRB in Bemidji. We're talking deer hunting today. My guests this morning, Jim Bryant of the Department of Natural Resources, Joe wood of the Minnesota Deer Hunters Association. Our phone numbers this morning, if you're outside the Twin Cities and would like to ask a question or make a comment, please call us 1-800-537-5252. If you're in the Twin Cities, call it 227-6000. Kevin from Saint Paul has been waiting patiently. Good morning, Kevin.

AUDIENCE: Good morning. Say, my question actually goes to Jim. What I'm really curious about is there was a big study done at Camp Ripley on archery and wounding of deer and the like, and I was wondering why that was never, ever published or touted as a-- I mean, I happen to be an archery deer hunter. And I know Peter was getting down on all of us deer hunters, especially with archery, saying that it was cruel and inhumane and on and on. And what have you seen done with that?

I've also been frustrated because I've never ever seen any public service announcements done by the DNR touting hunting as a great, I won't say, kind of family get together. But, you know, a dad and daughter or a dad and son type thing. I take my daughters grouse hunting. They're too young yet to deer hunt, and they just love coming along, walking in the woods.

And they're all excited about the time when they finally pass gun safety. And they go on to become hunters and sportsmen. And so I was just wondering why with all the money you get from us, which is truly millions and millions of dollars, we never see any upfront, in-your-face on TV type. This is an OK thing to do from the DNR.

RACHEL REABE: Jim, your comment on that.

JIM BRYANT: Well, I would say that all the money we get, we have priorities for our management there. There are activities that we feel are important in order to monitor-- in order to manage the population effectively, gathering population information, the overwinter mortality of deer, recruitment, reproduction, how many fawns. We spend a lot of our dollars working on habitat, coordinating with forestry.

We spend a lot of our time working with landowners on depredations, and we feel that those are high priority activities. And that's where the money goes. And as far as spending money on promotions, certainly that is something that we would consider doing if we had additional funds. But at the present time, we feel that other activities are more important to make the critical decisions for antlers permit, allotments, and things like that.

RACHEL REABE: And Joe, Minnesota Deer Hunters Association, that's one of the things you really do, is to encourage people to get involved in hunting and to raise the profile of hunters, isn't it?

JOE WOOD: That's very true, Rachel. And it's one of the things that we-- you know, I would address to the caller is in terms of involvement in organizations like the Minnesota Deer Hunters Association regarding all the hunting sports, but certainly with regard to deer hunting, the Minnesota Deer Hunters Association as an organization that can speak and can address some of these issues for the hunter.

And we do we do need to raise the profile. We do need to raise the issues and continue to address the public about the importance and the need for hunting as a management tool and certainly as a strong recreation, that is still a matter of fact, in the nation growing as a sport.

So I think it's something that people have to be aware of that it is a valid recreation, and it's something that a lot of people can learn to enjoy and certainly be involved in. And that takes some takes just some effort. But I think people getting involved in organizations like ours would help that recognition also because it's very important to be involved.

JIM BRYANT: In regards to the study at Ripley, if Kevin wants to have that-- a copy of that, he could call our Saint Paul office or our Brainerd office and get that information.

RACHEL REABE: Hunters are contributing millions of dollars to the Minnesota economy. In 1993, study by the International Fish and Wildlife Association talked about $94 million in direct sales on deer hunting, expenditures for food, gas, lodging, and other amenities totaling more than $191 million. And license fees alone, $10 to $13 million. Because people are aware of all this money going in, Jim, do you feel like at the Department of Natural Resources, you're under constant scrutiny. You've got all this cash, what are you doing with it, Jim?

JIM BRYANT: If I was to say that we didn't feel the heat, I guess I wouldn't be saying-- telling the truth. Certainly, we are cognizant that people are wondering where their hunting license dollars are going. We do have-- we meet on a regular basis with oversight committees. These are people made up from the various sportsmen's organizations from around the state, Pheasants Forever, Deer Hunters Association. And we do that very thing as far as demonstrating where the dollars go from the various hunting licenses. And yes, we're well aware that the hunters are wondering where their dollars are going. And we try to explain, you know, where it goes.

JOE WOOD: I just wanted to add to that, Rachel, that I do serve on an oversight committee, that is involved in looking at the game and fish funds. And I think that it's important, again, as the initial caller mentioned, that about being involved in organizations like ours to do that and to provide information back to the hunter.

RACHEL REABE: We have Betty from Brainerd on the phone. Good morning, Betty.

AUDIENCE: Yes, good morning. I was curious about something. I have heard that a lot of this venison, once it gets home or wherever, it's just tossed out. So it ends up in the dumps, especially in the cities, I've heard. And I was wondering if there's any knowledge of that or any comments. And I can hang up and listen. And thank you.

RACHEL REABE: Thanks for your question this morning. What about it, Joe? Do people like to hunt better than they like to eat the venison? And where does all the food go?

JOE WOOD: Well, I think one of the big issues is, and it's always been an issue with venison, is obviously the care of the game after it's harvested. And that ends up being a real critical point. People have to-- who are hunters and we as an organization try to stress the fact that they do need to take care of the animal once they've harvested it and treat it correctly so that the venison is appropriate to eat and is viable.

But also, I would suggest that we do as an organization, have Hunters Against Hunger program which is available to all hunters to get involved in. And it simply is a process of the hunter when they take the venison into a meat processor, they can donate a portion of or all of that animal to the Hunters Against Hunger program, which we cooperate with the food banks of Minnesota on. And they will come and pick up the venison and utilize it in the food bank distribution system throughout the state.

RACHEL REABE: Any idea how much venison that might have generated in a year?

JOE WOOD: Well, basically, our biggest year so far has been close to between 5,000 and 7000, pounds and that's on a regular basis. But we're certainly-- we are encouraging that activity this year. We've got some billboards down in the Twin City area that are trying to encourage the people who do have venison that they may not use to donate it to that program. And I think somebody certainly will appreciate the donation.

JIM BRYANT: [INAUDIBLE]

RACHEL REABE: Graydon in New London, why don't you go ahead with your question or comment this morning, sir.

AUDIENCE: Yes, ma'am. A gentleman called earlier and he says, why kill deer? Well, the main thing, if you think of conservation, conservation is the wise use of a natural resource. I want to underline use. It's not the-- it's not the preservation. Its use of it. The number 1 killer of deer is the hunter. This is obvious. But the number 2 is the automobile.

And if people would like us-- some people would like us not to hunt. But if we do not hunt, the number 1 killer of deer will be the automobile and these animals will be wasted, wasted on the highways. If hunting is eliminated, that's what's going to happen. And they think that hunting is cruel. But I'm just going to say, if a deer crawls off the highway with a broken rear end from an automobile, do you think it suffers when it lays in a ditch and dies for maybe for hours-- internal injuries, may be days.

I don't think that these people really think about what happens because animals-- these deer have nothing to control their populations other than disease, predation, which could be man or wolf or whatever, or starvation. Now, if we don't control the numbers, we are obligated to do that.

Right now, we have hunters that will pay the state for the chance to do this. And some people will say, well, we should just have hunters-- just pay hunters-- pay special hunters that have a certain ability to do this. But why pay a hunter to do this and not in a deer season, when we've got people that are willing to do it? And we eat our animals.

RACHEL REABE: And willing to pay to do it.

AUDIENCE: They're willing to pay to do it. And we eat the animals just as a non-hunter will eat meat that's packaged. But he has allowed somebody to kill an animal for him to eat that meat out of the store. And why should they-- why should they feel that it's wrong for me to kill my own animals?

RACHEL REABE: Thank you for responding to that comment, Graydon.

AUDIENCE: You're welcome.

RACHEL REABE: Jerry from Virginia, good morning.

AUDIENCE: Yes, my comment is-- a comment and then a question. Northeastern Minnesota here, we've had kind of a controversy in the last couple of years in this deer feeding program. And I think that the Deer Hunters Association and the DNR a little bit at odds. My comment on that, you can comment on it, too, is that we spent a million bucks here a couple of years ago.

And whether-- and I don't think it really did a lot of good. Why don't we spend that million bucks on really studying and examining what happens to our Cedar regeneration? Why we have it in spots and why we don't have it? And let's find out how we can get some more Cedar regeneration, which would do the deer a lot more benefit. I mean--

RACHEL REABE: Jim, your department's position on deer feeding again, a million dollars spent in 1996. No money has been appropriated for 1997. Some people say the results in '96 certainly did not warrant a million dollars. What is the department's position on deer feeding?

JIM BRYANT: Our position is that deer feeding is just one tool in deer management, along with other aspects of our deer management program. And our position is that it is one of the-- it ranks low compared to population management, habitat management, research, depredation management. We do know that, and this is a part of our response, the deer feeding program, that perhaps has been misunderstood.

We do know that those individual deer in feeding locations that are fed adequately and fed properly, that those deer do benefit from a feeding program. The claim we make is that it does not affect a large enough portion of the population to be worth the price when you compare it to other things. Are going to feed deer or are you going to acquire land is a question we would ask.

And if you were going to say acquire the land because we're looking for the long term benefits to the deer hunter and the deer population, when we make that decision. For example, since 1960, we've acquired over 700,000 acres of land in the form of wildlife management areas in the state. Many of those acres are providing the only winter cover for deer in the agricultural portion of the state, Norman county, Polk county, whatever.

And if we had taken that same money back in 1960 and put it in a pool and for deer feeding, we likely would have fed in, say, 1965, 1969, 1970. And we would not have any more deer as a result of those feeding programs than we have presently. Now, if we had taken that-- and on top of that, we wouldn't have the 700,000 acres of land that is open to hunting, providing a significant hunting opportunity and providing valuable winter cover.

RACHEL REABE: Joe wood, let's get your position on it with the Minnesota Deer Hunters Association, your position on deer feeding.

JOE WOOD: Well, again, our organization responded to obviously its membership in terms of our activities in the legislature in 1996 and the 1995 '96 deer feeding program. And our position has always been to support emergency winter deer feeding. The Minnesota Deer Hunters started in 1980, and a lot of the individuals were involved in the beginning of this organization, the start up of this organization had been involved in the '60s and '70s. There was a lot of brush cutting that took place.

And certainly, the recognition that habitat long-term was a real key issue. The Minnesota Deer Hunters Association has put over $1,054,000 through its height for habitat program back into habitat projects. And in fact, as the caller mentioned, Cedar regeneration has been one of the projects that we have supported strongly in terms of its research and finding out what we can do to improve habitat long-term.

But we recognize that there's in Northern Minnesota, you're going to have periods of time when emergencies arise, heavy snows arise, and so forth. And the hunter has asked, you know, what can we do, how can we respond. And again, the emergency winter deer feeding program is one way. Whether it's the totally an efficiency issue, and I think that's where the department has taken-- it has been at odds with many of the people who support winter deer feeding and emergency winter deer feeding has been basically on the issue of Jim mentioned, the efficiency of the expenditures of dollars.

But again, recognizing that people who are watching animals in a suffering condition and so forth, and certainly those who utilize that and by hunting are very interested in seeing that continue. And anything that can be done in order to maintain populations even at minimal levels will certainly enhance the ability of that population to grow in the next years after that. So it's an important aspect. I think that needs to be considered. And I think the values that the Hunter place needs to be considered.

RACHEL REABE: We have time for one more question. Ron from Bemidji, good morning.

AUDIENCE: Yes, I'll make a comment and then I'll hang up and listen to what you have to say about it. But I do deer hunt. And I guess my comment is on public land, the placement of permanent stands, you know, there's getting to be more of these big enclosed stands you see on private property, which is fine, but you're starting to see them show up now on state land.

Like Northwest of Bemidji, not too far, somebody erected just recently. It's an 8 by 10 elevated stand. It's got sliding windows and such. I was up in the Buena Vista State Forest where these wildlife plots are. There's big stands, not enclosed, but big platforms. You see anything from carpet hanging on them to about everything you can imagine. And I guess, I think that makes a deer hunter look bad. You know, they're out there littering the woods up. Who's going to take care of that garbage when it finally falls down?

RACHEL REABE: So they're trying to catch up with the ice fisherman, huh? With the--

AUDIENCE: Yeah, right.

RACHEL REABE: --with all the niceties of home. Are there some regulations? Can people do anything they want? Can they build a little house on stilts, if they want?

JIM BRYANT: Presently, there's no regulation against doing that. But the gentleman does bring up a point that I've heard more frequently in recent years. There's nothing wrong with using on ground materials to build a little platform and use that as an elevated deer stand. But--

RACHEL REABE: But barcalounger, sliding glass doors--

JIM BRYANT: That upsets a lot of people.

JOE WOOD: Yeah, and this is an issue that obviously is coming more and more as we see more and more of these types of tree stands exist. It's obviously something that's going to be a point in the future that we're going to have to deal with to some extent. And I think that's something that we as an organization are looking at, too. And I the big concern I would mention, though, that is there are regulations on the books about damaging public timber, those kinds of things.

And they can be utilized if somebody is actually doing some things that are really detrimental to an area such as cutting large shooting lanes and so forth and removing timber that is public ownership. But the problem again, gets back to enforcement issues and how do you enforce all of those because of all of the number of hunters that are out there.

So it is something that's going to have to be dealt with, first of all, from an ethics basis and talking about what is the hunter's ethic in terms of their use of the natural resources of the state and public lands. And secondly, how do we deal with that in the future is going to be an issue. I'm sure that's going to come up in front of our organization and with the department.

RACHEL REABE: And if people couldn't complain about how cold it is and how difficult it is, what would they have to talk about. Not everybody in Minnesota hunts. Around this time of year, those who don't sometimes feel like strangers in a strange land. We ask non-hunter James Baden, the editor of the Mille Lacs Messenger, for his thoughts on the subject.

JAMES BADEN: I bagged my deer three years running. Not a bad average for a guy who doesn't even hunt. Of course, any real sports enthusiast will tell you that running into a deer on a country road with your car doesn't exactly qualify you for great white hunter status. Nonetheless, in the last three years, I've managed to wreck three cars and kill three deer. And I know people who've lived in this hunter's paradise around Mille Lacs Lake all their lives and have never been as consistent year after year as I have on the road or in a deer stand.

In fact, impaling three deer on the hood of my car has not only given me more deer stories than I would normally entertain, it has made me a small part of some rather colorful local folklore. Let's face it, for a non-hunter in an area where blaze orange is a fashion statement, three dead deer stories are still better than none. The only downside might be that I have friends who refuse to ride in a car with me till after Thanksgiving.

But to be honest with you, around these parts, to get real respect as a hunter, it helps to buy a deer license and carry a 30 30 the back of your Ford pickup. Still, don't get the idea that just because I don't buy a deer license, it means I know nothing about the tradition of the hunt. On the contrary. After all, my father was raised on a farm in Western Minnesota. He grew up hunting.

Even after he left the farm for the abundance of city life, he kept himself tethered to the tradition of the hunt, a rural tradition that was so deeply rooted into his soul, he felt compelled to at least make an effort to pass it down to his son. Of course, given my deep counter roots in the comfort and glitter of urban traditions, that was probably a futile effort. But despite the odds against him, dad tried to teach me the ways of the hunt, as well as the joys of putting food on the table.

Duck hunting was awash almost immediately. Too wet. Too cold. And besides, nobody in the family really liked gamey meat. Even our dog, not a hunter either, I might add drew the line at eating duck. I'm told I tried deer hunting a couple of times. I don't know. All I have left is a vague memory of seeing a deer and not shooting it. Need I say more about that tradition. I guess when it comes to the hunt, dad came closest to passing down the tradition with pheasant hunting. And here my memories are as clear and as crisp as an autumn day.

I can remember cleaning our shotguns together on the back step. I remember urging him to race the trains as we made our way West along Highway 12 to the farm country where he'd grown up. I remember us tramping together through the endless rows of corn and pressing through the deep gullies far beyond the dirt roads and admiring him because he seemed to know his way around so well in this strange world.

OK, so I don't remember actually shooting anything. And I realized that maybe that hunting story might be considered acceptable to a group of vegetarians. Even poetic in some circles, I suppose. But I've lived here in hunting land for 16 years, and if I've learned anything besides watching the ditches carefully at sundown, it's that around here telling anyone such a story would be like telling an avid baseball player that I was once a bat boy.

In other words, even if the guy was extremely polite or a really good friend, he'd probably still laugh at me for not having experienced the thrill of the kill. OK, I admit that the thread that tethered me to the tradition of the hunt was just too thin and it snapped before I ever really shot anything. But so what? Maybe all the commotion about the tradition of the hunt is a bit over romanticized.

After all, even though my three car kills were obviously less noble than if I had taken down those deer with a bow or a rifle or a knife between my teeth, I think I'm still one up on all those guys who call themselves hunters and then come up here to Mille Lacs each year and shoot somebody's cow. And how about the guys who shot the church last year. I mean, what do they know about putting food on the table. Laugh, if you will, but I'll put up my hunting stories against theirs any day.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

RACHEL REABE: Jim Bryant, and Joe Wood, thank you for being with us this hour. We will continue our discussion on deer hunting next hour when a family of Bemidji hunters joins us in the studio. The Cease brothers may not have compiled the best hunting success rate, but they say they wouldn't miss their annual hunt for the world. We'll also talk to a psychology professor about the culture of hunting.

For many hunters, the traditions and rituals of deer hunting are more important than the venison they may or may not come home with. And deer hunting is not a male only sport. In fact, more women are joining hunting parties or forming their own. We'll talk about the National Program, Becoming an Outdoor Woman. Stay tuned as Mainstreet Radio continues this broadcast after the news.

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Good afternoon. Thank you for joining us for this special Mainstreet Radio broadcast, which comes to you live from the MPR studios of KNBJ and KCRB in Bemidji. I'm Rachel Reabe. We're continuing now this hour our conversation about deer hunting. If you're with us for the first hour of the show, you know, we spent most of the time talking about the deer, where are they, how many of them are there, how can we best manage the herd.

This hour, we're going to switch our focus to the hunters. And we invite you to call us with your hunting experiences and observations. When the firearm deer season opens on Saturday, a half hour before sunrise, hunters across Minnesota will be ready and waiting in the woods and fields. Among them will be brothers Kevin and Corey Cease. Kevin is a funeral director in Bemidji. Corey works for the United States Forest Service in Grand Rapids. Gentlemen, thanks for joining us.

KEVIN CEASE: Hi, Rachel.

RACHEL REABE: Hi, Kevin. Since you are the oldest of the two brothers--

KEVIN CEASE: And the smartest.

RACHEL REABE: --lets talk about the Cease family hunting traditions. How old were you, Kevin, when you first went out hunting?

KEVIN CEASE: I was 13 years old. Kind of the traditional age for a lot of people in this area start going out. And I'll never forget, I was so nervous because here I was going to go to deer camp and we've always kind of talked about it--

RACHEL REABE: Sort of mystical.

KEVIN CEASE: It's deer camp, and it's capital D, capital C, and with the quotation marks around it. And we are just-- I'm just excited. And also, that first year dad brought my-- now, Corey, all of us couldn't be here today, but my brothers are triplets. There are two years younger than I am, and Corey is one of the triplets. And I think that year, for some reason, why did dad bring out all four of us to deer camp.

RACHEL REABE: So you missed your chance to be the star--

KEVIN CEASE: I was not quite the star.

RACHEL REABE: To be the 13 year old who could hunt.

KEVIN CEASE: That's right. But somehow, you know, they were there. And it was just this rite of passage. And it was just a very exciting time so--

RACHEL REABE: You felt grown up?

KEVIN CEASE: I felt very grown up. I did. I wasn't but--

RACHEL REABE: Corey, when this time of year comes around, now I know you were wearing blaze orange. And of course, this is radio. So as far as the listeners know, we're all wearing blaze orange. But you are wearing blaze orange. Are you-- do you get excited? Do things-- do you blood start kind of pumping at about this point, two days prior to opening?

COREY CEASE: Yeah, I think everyone does. I kind of wore it because it gets you in the mood to talk about deer hunting, I guess. And being that we're on radio, there's no visuals, so it just kind of stimulates--

RACHEL REABE: Gets us going.

COREY CEASE: Get the blood going a little bit and get ready for Saturday morning.

RACHEL REABE: How much do you love deer hunting? Is this a big deal to you, or if I said, you know, let's go the mega mall Saturday?

COREY CEASE: Well, yeah, I like it a lot more than the mega mall.

KEVIN CEASE: That'd be a negatory on that.

RACHEL REABE: So deer hunting is a big deal in your life?

COREY CEASE: Well, I know people that it's a lot bigger deal. You know, I wouldn't die if I didn't do it, but it's something I look forward to all year and put preparation into out in the woods, scouting and thinking about.

KEVIN CEASE: You haven't seen his deer stands, I don't know if that's preparation for it.

RACHEL REABE: Have you-- have you ever missed a year, Corey?

COREY CEASE: Excuse me.

RACHEL REABE: Have you ever missed a year of hunting?

COREY CEASE: Well, I got-- I probably miss more deer than some people have seen, so that's what I brag about anyway.

RACHEL REABE: Did you ever miss a year going out, though, or do you hunt-- have you hunted every year since you were old enough?

COREY CEASE: I missed a couple of years. When I was in college, I kind of went through this idealistic phase where I wasn't sure about hunting and all this, but I still went to camp and instead of hunting, I actually went out and cruised the timber out in our property. And then I started getting hungry in the winter and the meat was very economical. So I'm back.

RACHEL REABE: So you went back to it, OK. Is it a big thing in your family? Is this-- when you think, Kevin, about family traditions, what you do on Thanksgiving and how you spend Christmas with your family, Is deer hunting right up there?

KEVIN CEASE: Well, you know, we don't talk about it year round as a family. You know, we have our normal lives and a lot of other family matters come into play. But then, you know, this time of year comes around and I can't-- I've been hunting since I was 13. I'm 37 now. So it's 24 years that I've been hunting. I can't think of anything I've done for 24 years in a row. I think I've missed one or two when I was in college but-- and, you know, similar cast of characters everywhere, every year.

And there's this sense of tradition that is very comforting. You come in and you see people pretty much in the same place every year. And we always tell the same stories every year. We might add one or two every year to the lexicon of our camp. But there's this kind of techno speak or this kind of lexicon that we enjoy at our camp. And if you came in from the outside, you wouldn't talk about it. For instance, Corey, you know, my deer stand blew down. I told you that, didn't I?

COREY CEASE: Yeah, you did.

KEVIN CEASE: But I checked out Murph's old stand.

COREY CEASE: Yeah.

KEVIN CEASE: Yeah, you know where that is. It's kind of about the old red stand. Of course, the red stand isn't there anymore, but you go through there. That's the one that Andre shot those two buckets in opening morning, wasn't it?

COREY CEASE: Yeah, and we had this goal hit him right between the eyes. So he was bleeding a little bit.

KEVIN CEASE: Yeah, but it's right by that other stand, you know, that tall one. But that kind of blew down a couple of years ago. And so it's kind of all these things. Unless you have this history, you wouldn't know what we're talking about or where we're talking about.

RACHEL REABE: So when you guys are out for your deer hunting expedition, do you talk about your other lives? Corey, are you telling them about your bad knee, or what's going on with your job, or when you get there, is it deer hunting time?

COREY CEASE: It's a little of each, I guess. You get some of that regular life out of the way so you can get into the mode. And you know, you get into deer hunting mode and you start talking deer hunting.

KEVIN CEASE: And it's kind of interesting, though, because--

COREY CEASE: --teasing people.

KEVIN CEASE: I'll go home and Ann will say, so how Corey and Betsy doing. And well, we got a deer. Well, didn't you talk about what they're doing. And I am like, well, he missed a deer.

RACHEL REABE: So not too much conversation about outside life. Do you guys have-- is it quite competitive when you go out with a group? Corey, are you like, if I could just get one and beat Kevin this year, if I could just pull ahead of him? Do you have your long-term standings printed someplace or does everybody have that memorized?

COREY CEASE: Funny you might ask that. We used to--

RACHEL REABE: You spend last night compiling your stats.

COREY CEASE: We used to have an old mobile home. We pull in for deer camp. And we actually had everyone's name listed and every year and what they shot, a doe, or buck, and whatnot.

KEVIN CEASE: Well, um--

COREY CEASE: A few of us, it kind of broke up a little bit. We went out of state and they sold the trailer house. But it was right on the wall. So somebody started lying about what they had shot. You know, we just point out, no, no, no, you shot a Doe that year, or you didn't shoot anything at all.

KEVIN CEASE: But now without this written record, we're trusting our memories. And so this is-- we can argue about this for hours and it's great because we don't have to settle it. And sometimes, the history gets bigger than ever. So you can always just kind of expand maybe what the truth might have been just a little--

RACHEL REABE: Although--

KEVIN CEASE: That happens at [INAUDIBLE]

RACHEL REABE: When I called you Kevin and I said, are you a deer hunter? You're like, yes, I'm a huge deer hunter. And I said, well, then you've gotten like a deer every year? No, I can't remember the last time I shot a deer.

[LAUGHS]

KEVIN CEASE: Well, that's why I was laughing when you asked Corey if it's competitive. Sure, it's competitive. It just doesn't take much to do better than me when I'm actually out in the woods.

RACHEL REABE: How many deer have you shot in your entire career? Not shot at, but shot.

[LAUGHS]

KEVIN CEASE: God, Corey.

COREY CEASE: Do you run out of fingers and toes, Kevin, or--

KEVIN CEASE: I think three. What do you think?

COREY CEASE: Yeah, who's counting.

RACHEL REABE: Corey, does that mean you've shot more than three?

COREY CEASE: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I guess I probably have.

RACHEL REABE: Like, five?

COREY CEASE: Oh.

RACHEL REABE: Is it bigger than a breadbox?

COREY CEASE: Well, it's not written down, so, you know, there's probably a few dozen out there in the past few years, so no.

KEVIN CEASE: He's probably shot-- I'll bet you a 20.

COREY CEASE: I-- it's hard to say. You know, half dozen to a dozen.

RACHEL REABE: Don't tell me you were thinking about this story before you come in here. Tell me your most exciting story, Corey. Now with no help here from Kevin.

KEVIN CEASE: Can I laugh?

RACHEL REABE: Tell me, what was the most exciting thing that ever happened to you in the deer stand.

COREY CEASE: Well, I don't know if anything stands out more than any others, but it's fun when somebody, if myself, I get a deer or if somebody else does and you're involved in in, you know, tracking it. You know, somebody might shoot a deer and come back to camp and say, well, we're going to go track it. You know, a lot of times you'll let a little time go by without before going out and scaring it up. And it's kind of fun to be involved or going out to help your brother drag one in. And it's--

KEVIN CEASE: You haven't had to help me very much.

COREY CEASE: I think it all the excitement that is in all of that, actually for me. Though, I do remember, you know, shooting a few bucks and felt really good. So, I mean, as far as a fulfillment, you know, you get all your scouting and put your stand out and everything clicks. You see the deer and you get it. And--

RACHEL REABE: So you were walking a little taller when you came home that year, Corey?

COREY CEASE: Oh, yeah, you always do. King of the camp. It's something, you know, opening morning on a lot of years, we'll meet for lunch or something. And so everyone's kind of checking everybody out and seeing, well, do they have blood or deer hair on their feet or hands or whatever. And so it's kind of a joke to see how long you can go if you shot a deer without anyone realizing it. And if you can make it, you know, a lot of times you'll crack before then and you'll have to just blurt it out so--

RACHEL REABE: Kevin, your best story, your most exciting time at the deer stand.

KEVIN CEASE: I haven't had that many exciting time because mine all revolve around other deer people also have shot. But there's one time where pretty much there's-- in fact, there's a couple of years where Corey kind of alluded to it, where people went out of state and they just couldn't make it back. And so it was only me-- my brother Kent, and I. That was it. That was our deer camp, and so--

RACHEL REABE: So the [INAUDIBLE] family diminshed considering--

KEVIN CEASE: But we had to keep our-- you know, stake out our territory, you know, and keep doing what we had to do. And so we didn't stay out there. Usually, we bring a tent and stay right at the site. And it's kind of fun. It's a combination of public and private land. And so we're just kind of-- you don't have to move anywhere. You just-- you're right there. And-- but this time since there's only two of us, we're not going to camp out there. It's a lot of work to do that.

And so it's Sunday night, opening weekend, and, you know, it's just us two. And we can party hunt. And all of a sudden, just before dark, I hear like three shots by Kent's stand. And it just started to snow. And he just had built the stand. We call it now the old buck stand, because he had stolen it from Corey, since Corey was gone, right. And the stand was--

COREY CEASE: Yeah, and then the year I came back, he shot three eight pointers out of it. And that really -- I wanted the stand back then, but--

KEVIN CEASE: That's right.

COREY CEASE: But now it's Kent stand.

KEVIN CEASE: But Corey will call it the old buck stand. So because you have to label the stands. And it's dark now. And it just been clear cut probably about four or five years ago, four or five years before that. And so there are these saplings, those Popple saplings. And it's dark and we had compasses. But that doesn't always help you in the dark with snow because you look up, we had flashlights, and the snow was going all around us. We're dragging these-- he had shot two, buck and a doe. Shot my doe tag, which I had gotten.

RACHEL REABE: And I wanted--

KEVIN CEASE: You're so happy to have something to put that tag on. Well, OK, but you know, we still have another weekend. And that means I don't get to hunt because we filled up our tags. So Thanks a lot, Kent. Already I'm already talked off then. And then we got to drag these things out of his stand, which is way back in the woods through this, these saplings that are just barely maneuverable through. And then halfway through because of the snow, he kind of got lost. And so we're kind of making circles, dragging these deer. It took us--

RACHEL REABE: I bet you were sorry you missed that, Corey.

KEVIN CEASE: And it took us at least an hour to drag these things out. And then finally get out there and we're go [BREATHES HEAVILY] and we load them up in his pickup. And he got stuck in the pickup on top of it. And then his pager went off because we needed to go back home. Everybody was wondering where we were. It was way after dark. They kind of checking up on us.

And we didn't have a cellular phone back then. And so we had all-- we had was this-- it was hung up in this log and all we had was this little hatchet. And it was this huge Papa log. And we spent another hour and a half chopping this darn log down so we can get out of the woods. Finally did. So that's not really an exciting deer hunting story. But I'd never let-- every year, I never let my brother can't forget that so--

RACHEL REABE: When you guys go out, do you kind of say to yourselves, well, don't shoot, my dear. I don't care if I go home with nothing. Don't shoot it.

COREY CEASE: I think when we're younger, it was a lot more competitive. But as the years go by, you're just happy that somebody else can get a deer and have the experience. And it's not quite that competitive now.

KEVIN CEASE: [INAUDIBLE]

COREY CEASE: When we were younger we definitely were, you know, that's my dear. I saw it first or whatever. But it's changed a lot since then.

KEVIN CEASE: Again, try to picture this. Here's our father who has-- at that time, I'm two years older. So when my brothers first hunted, they were 13. I was 15. He has four kids in the woods with guns. Can you imagine that?

RACHEL REABE: I'd be in the--

[LAUGHS]

I'd be in that trailer staying real low underneath the windows.

KEVIN CEASE: And amazingly, though, we all made it. And I was carrying the old gun. We've got this gun. And Brett's going to get it this year. But two years-- but my brothers ended up with a single shot, 30, 30. How well did that shoot, Corey?

COREY CEASE: Well, we'd go out before season and shoot them and have a hard time hitting the target.

RACHEL REABE: Wasn't the best sighted gun ever. So you started when you were 13. Is that legal in Minnesota that at 13 you can go out and hunt? If you've had, do you have to have a class first?

COREY CEASE: You have to have your driver-- oh, driver's-- your hunter safety class.

RACHEL REABE: OK. Kevin, you brought your son Brett along today. Brett is 13 years old, is in the seventh grade in Bemidji. He's skipping school today to talk to us about deer hunting. Brett, this is your first hunt this year? So you've gone through your class. Are you ready to go out with these guys, Brett?

BRETT CEASE: Well, I guess.

[LAUGHS]

I'm still thinking about it, but yeah.

RACHEL REABE: Tell me what you're most excited about.

BRETT CEASE: Well, probably what every boy is interested in is just getting a buck the first year and bragging about it the rest of deer camp.

RACHEL REABE: Are you kidding, Brett? You hear your dad, so you'll be bragging about the rest of your life. This may have to stand you for the next 30 years. So when you hear grownups say, like your dad, I don't really care if I shoot anything, I don't care. I just want to go out in the woods. You would say what? I care--

BRETT CEASE: I want to get a deer.

RACHEL REABE: You care desperately at 13.

BRETT CEASE: Well, not desperately, but yeah, still.

RACHEL REABE: So what time will you be getting up on Saturday.

BRETT CEASE: 4:00 to 5:00, maybe.

KEVIN CEASE: Yeah, about 4:00.

RACHEL REABE: And have you ever been to-- do you get to go to deer camp even when--

BRETT CEASE: Yeah, I've been there since-- my dad's been taking me since I was three or two. So I know the setting and everything, but this is the first year I'm probably going to handle a gun by myself, so it's pretty exciting.

RACHEL REABE: And do you have your own gun, Brett, or are you using this old--

BRETT CEASE: I'm using the traditional one.

KEVIN CEASE: What is it, Brett?

BRETT CEASE: It's the Winchester lever action 30 30.

RACHEL REABE: And so this year will you be going to your own stand or when you're 13--

BRETT CEASE: No.

RACHEL REABE: --do you go to a stand with your dad?

BRETT CEASE: My dad's still going to watch over me.

KEVIN CEASE: We just we talked about this. And he's actually been in the stand with me before. And so we know about this but this year when I'm in with him, I'm just going to be kind of his shadow and just kind of being with him. And he's using this gun, that's my grandfather-- his great grandfather used, my father used, all of my brothers and I used. And so I'm just going to be kind of his shadow there and just kind of-- I think it might be a little bit easier. And plus, it'll make us, you know, kind of that bonding experience there. It won't be so lonely in the woods then so--

RACHEL REABE: But can you talk when you're on the deer stand or is that totally taboo?

BRETT CEASE: No. no.

KEVIN CEASE: No, can't talk in the woods.

BRETT CEASE: Sacred.

KEVIN CEASE: That's right.

RACHEL REABE: Corey, I think you'd have an easier time with that than your older brother.

[LAUGHS]

Would I be right about that? That's got to be the big challenge for you, Kevin, is sitting up there silent.

KEVIN CEASE: Well, actually, it's funny you should mention that, because, for me, obviously I do like to talk a lot, but when I'm forced to sit alone, I really hesitate to call it a sacred experience, but-- or a spiritual significance. But it's a time of year when there is no phones, there's no kids. Well, this year somebody will be bugging me. But there's no outside interference.

And I can just sit there for hours and hours. No TV, no radio, no nothing. And you just-- it reaches inside of you. Just it touches something very, very, very old and ancient inside of you. And it just-- silence is good. I've found that out. There's this-- there's solitude, which is a very good thing. You're not alone. That means you're lonely. But solitude means that you've got to focus. And it's exciting.

And then buck fever usually sets in somewhere there so that, I mean, that is one of the neatest rushes that you'll ever get in your whole life, this adrenaline surge that you-- oh, I hear something, it could be. And you start looking. And then your heart rate starts getting a little bit bigger.

And you hear something crashing a little bit farther. And it could be anything. You don't know what it is. And it might come later. It might come later. And then it might go away. And then pretty soon everything starts looking like a deer. You see twigs rustling in the grass and pretty soon they're antlers. And you see some brown and you could square it's a deer.

RACHEL REABE: That squirrel with horns.

COREY CEASE: Or a squirrel, whatever.

KEVIN CEASE: Or a squirrel, right.

RACHEL REABE: Brett, do you have the first dibs on anything that comes by your stand? Was that the agreement you made with your dad that if, yeah, yeah, you'll go up with him in a stand--

BRETT CEASE: Oh, yeah.

RACHEL REABE: --but you get first shot.

BRETT CEASE: Yeah, pretty sure.

RACHEL REABE: Brett, tell me, in school, are other kids talking about deer hunting. Because you're in the seventh grade and you're all probably 13 years old or almost 13 years old, are your friends, are they excited about hunting, or is hunting not a big deal for today's 13 year olds?

BRETT CEASE: Well, as a matter of fact, this lunch period, I heard some people asking, well, who's going deer hunting this season, and what time are you getting up, and all those questions. So, yeah, it's not the biggest deal right now, but some people are talking about it.

RACHEL REABE: And do you feel, Brett, like after Saturday you're going to be a man or you're kind of going to go out as seventh grader but you'll be coming back whether you-- or do you have to shoot something before you really feel like you've crossed the great veil?

BRETT CEASE: I probably have to shoot something before I cross the threshold, and yeah, I guess.

RACHEL REABE: But some stories wouldn't hurt.

BRETT CEASE: No, I couldn't make up a couple along the way. Yeah.

RACHEL REABE: Are you the first of the Cease grandchildren to go out hunting now?

BRETT CEASE: Yeah.

KEVIN CEASE: Are you the oldest of the grandchildren in the family?

BRETT CEASE: Yeah, my cousins are only 2 and 4, so I'm going to be the first one.

RACHEL REABE: Kevin, you also have a daughter. Will she, when she turns 13, will she join the group?

KEVIN CEASE: Well, that's an interesting question, isn't it. My feeling is if she chooses that she wants to be a part of this, this whole experience, I would love to invite her into that whole process.

RACHEL REABE: Has she been out to deer camp?

KEVIN CEASE: Yes, yes. Yes, she's been out to deer camp, too. My spouse feels a little bit differently than I do, and I'm sure we'll come to terms somehow, but I'll probably leave it up to Allison so--

RACHEL REABE: Brett, do you have any concern that you might see the deer, you might be there in the deer stand, and then at last minute you just think, I can't do it. I just can't do it. Or is that not going to be happening?

BRETT CEASE: Well, it depends on what happens during that time. I'd pretty try desperately to get the buck or whatever the deer I saw. But if somebody was in the way or something like that, no.

KEVIN CEASE: We've talked a lot about safety. And that's especially when you bring a new hunter in, that's something that's a big concern. We have had people in our deer hunting party in the past that haven't observed some of our what we-- we are really very, very strict and very, very fussy about safety because this it is a big deal. And they haven't been invited back. And that's-- so Brett is just making just an allusion to that. If it's a good shot, take it. But if you're even questioning it, just don't even-- don't worry about it. It's not worth taking the shot.

RACHEL REABE: Now a story in The Minneapolis Tribune this morning talking about 12 to 17-year-old hunters, twice the accident rate of the hunting population in general. Does that scare you as a dad?

KEVIN CEASE: It does. It really does. But since I'm going to be with Brett this first year, it concerns me less because I'll be right with him. And also again, Brett's seen what this gun can do. You know, we've--

BRETT CEASE: We shot-- we've taken it out and shot it into puddles and trees.

KEVIN CEASE: And he's aware of the great danger. And then I get to tell him my story. When I turned 13, I forgot to the part where the same very gun I wasn't really totally aware of how it worked. And I was ejecting. It's a lever action. And then I'd put the hammer down because the hammer would be back, I'd be worried about safety, and then I'd put it back.

And then I'd, you know, do the lever action, eject the shell. And my brother Kurt was there. And he was bending down to pick up the shells as I ejected it. And the hammer slipped out of my thumb and, you know, it just went off as he was bending down to pick up-- you know, another foot, we'd, we'd be talking a lot different. So that has imprinted me ever since. I mean, that was an extremely--

COREY CEASE: Imprinted everybody, I think.

KEVIN CEASE: Imprinted everybody in our camp. And in fact, Brett, how many times have you told me to tell that story.

BRETT CEASE: About close to the umpteenth time.

KEVIN CEASE: Yeah.

RACHEL REABE: So--

KEVIN CEASE: So safety is a very, very critical factor in our family.

COREY CEASE: And as far as success for Brett, I-- I'll probably take him out so he can actually get a deer rather than just go out with his dad so--

[LAUGHS]

RACHEL REABE: So that might be easier. Corey, what do you think about in the deer stand? So if you guys get up at 4:00 or 5:00 and you're in your stand a half hour before sunrise. And you stay there straight through until lunchtime, or do the hardcore ones, do sometime you just stay there all day till sundown?

COREY CEASE: Yeah, we usually bring a lunch with. And if it's nice weather or if you just feel like staying, you stay and you know, the code is not to bother someone, you know, if they don't come in for lunch. And I end up thinking about a lot of things in your life and going kind of going through a lot of it and planning and thinking about what's what-- whatever issues are going on in your life at the time or, or you just might be enjoying the scenery.

RACHEL REABE: So is it a spiritual experience? I hear people say that over and over again, that when they go out hunting and I don't know if it's the fact of being in the woods or if it's because it's perhaps the first time in months we have stood still long enough to think a cogent thought. I don't know what it is, but what's your thought on it?

COREY CEASE: Well, I think maybe for some people it might be the only time they're out there in the woods and really taking a chance to really soak it in. And it probably is a lot different experience where I tend to be out there a lot more than that. And kind of hoping for a deer and thinking about, well, if this doesn't work out here, where else am I going to go tonight or tomorrow morning. Maybe in the early years, it might have been a little more, but it's less so now.

KEVIN CEASE: For me, it-- what Corey was-- I don't get a lot of chance just to be out in the woods alone. And for me, I end up thinking about creation and gosh, what a neat thing nature is and how lucky we are to live in a world that God's created like this. And you get to observe nature in its full force. And then something comes along and you aim a gun at it. It's kind of an oxymoron. I do realize I'm speaking out of both sides of my mouth, but--

RACHEL REABE: Well, we've heard today people calling up and saying, how could you ever deer hunt? And if you are a conservationist, you cannot be a hunter. Or if you are an environmentalist, that does not go along with being a hunter. Your take on that, Corey?

COREY CEASE: Well, I guess, I look at it as if you're out there to take an animal and to eat the meat, it's, you know, a lot of people are out there eating hamburgers and eating animals they never saw or never saw killed. And this way, it kind of when you eat that meat, you know exactly what happened. And, you know, as a meat eater, I tend to appreciate what I'm eating a little differently than going to a supermarket and buying a bunch of ground up meat and thinking it just comes in white packages.

RACHEL REABE: So not unlike the experience of the gardener who picks the tomato and comes in and slices it as opposed to just throwing it in the brown paper bag with the rest of the groceries and bringing it home. The connection to--

COREY CEASE: Well, it's a little different. you know, a big brown eyed animal is a little different than a vegetable. And I think most hunters, whether they admit it or not, probably have some period of remorse after they kill an animal and go there to go through the other process of field dressing it and all. And every time you field dressed an animal, you're probably thinking, you know-- I personally think about, you know, what it is I just did. And because, you know, you get inside field dressing animal and you're right in the thick of it so-- but it's all the process. I love to eat the meat, and love sausage, and jerky. And--

KEVIN CEASE: And we've talked about this, too a lot of times. We've kind of grown up with this tradition. And for us, I mean, it there's two different things. There's the tradition. There's the hunt part that I think, you know, we're talking about. But when you grow up at it as it's kind of normal, everybody kind of does it. And you don't think about it very much. It's just something that you do. And it's a part of our annual, you know, calendar of events.

And it's we just know it's deer hunting, and this is what we're going to do. We're going to get together. We're going to see that same ugly hat that you're going to wear every year. And we wear the same costumes, if you want to call it every year. And there's something comforting in that. And then listening to-- we have a brother, Kent, who tells the same story, takes him half an hour to tell it every single year. We warn people and I actually time them. And it takes him a half hour to tell the story.

RACHEL REABE: Is this the story of the time you almost killed him.

KEVIN CEASE: No, no, no, no. This is--

RACHEL REABE: It's a different one.

KEVIN CEASE: --some other-- this is another story. But we got him down to 20 minutes last year, I think, wasn't it?

COREY CEASE: Yeah, when he was hunting in Wyoming. And it's just a long story.

KEVIN CEASE: It's a long story.

RACHEL REABE: We have 25 minutes now before 1:00. Dr. Dwight Phelps, a psychology professor at Bemidji State University, is joining us now in the studio to give his perspective on the culture of deer hunting. And Dr. Phelps, you also are from the Bagley area, along with the Cease brothers, and you are a lifetime hunter as well. We have talked today with their own particular experiences about hunting. Do you find those to be universal in a sense?

DR. DWIGHT PHELPS: Well, I'm-- I'm thinking of all kinds of hunting stories of my own so--

RACHEL REABE: So it brings that out in you.

DR. DWIGHT PHELPS: Yes. And listening to the stories of near death and a lot of years without getting deer. As far as my own experience, it feels universal. And law nationwide does seem to-- hunting law seems to include a lot of the same kinds of stories the same kind of meaning. And I don't think there's a lot of variability here in the United States in hunting experiences.

RACHEL REABE: Why is it so important? Why is hunting so important? We talk about it as a ritual and a tradition. Why are those important in our lives?

DR. DWIGHT PHELPS: Well, I guess I would talk about those a little differently. The word ritual actually implies something of spiritual or religious significance. It's associated with procedures that have ceremonial, sacred value and so on. We use the word ritual sometimes loosely, I think, to talk about habits or repetitive behaviors or events, things that we just do. But it implies there's a meaning there and that we tap into something-- something bigger than our own immediate experience.

And as Kevin and Cory were suggesting, there is something very, very solemn and meaningful about-- about not just going out into the woods, not just getting away from offices and children and becoming inaccessible in some ways to the outside world, enjoying nature and so on. All of that's solemn, sort of back to nature, something you'd get in the boundary waters, which has its own spiritual value. But you're also out there, at least in part, to take the life of an animal, to contribute to the family larder, to be a provider, to be so this--

RACHEL REABE: So this hunter, gatherer, it feeds into it. That's all part of it.

DR. DWIGHT PHELPS: Yeah I don't think we even need to think of this hunter gatherer tradition, or a need, or ethic as a primitive sort of thing. I did grew up on a farm as well. And I remember feeling sorry for my friends who didn't have the experience of raising their own food.

RACHEL REABE: Who were that far removed from it.

DR. DWIGHT PHELPS: They were far removed. As Corey was suggesting, this food chain that we're a part of, I had to remove the heads from chickens in order to eat them, and they thought that was awful. I remember a friend who was horrified when she discovered where milk came from because it was so gross, as she put it.

But I think there's a sense of responsibility, a sense of rightness in participating sort of close to the action in the food chain. And there's something solemn about taking this life, about doing it in a safe manner, about doing it ethically, about participating in a responsible way that the grown up-- you know, as Brett is anticipating, the grown up responsibilities that come along with it, I think are powerful.

RACHEL REABE: I want to talk to you about those rites of passage. But first, we're going to go to a very patient John, calling us from Saint Paul. Good afternoon, John.

AUDIENCE: Am I on the air? Hello.

RACHEL REABE: We've got you on the phone. Go ahead, John.

AUDIENCE: Thanks. I just wanted to address the issue of not getting it. To me, wilderness is a religion. And I've hunted for 25 years. I've taken a trip around the world. And it's a religion on the decline. Worldwide, there's a decline of wilderness and people that harvest it and commune with it. And it seems to be that this century is a century of moving away from wilderness towards the city and technology and corporations who are taking control of a lot of our wilderness. And I just think it's a great loss.

And our religious people, the Jews look at the Christians and say, I don't get it. And the Muslims look at the Christians and say, I don't get it. And city people look at wilderness people and say, I don't get it. It's just a big kind of a Buddhist thing where if you harvest this deer, it doesn't die, it lives in you. It's a bigger thing than we are. And from the religious aspect of it, I think of the wilderness as my religion, and I kind of mourn the loss of the wilderness worldwide. It's happening everywhere.

And the people that harvest it are being pushed out into city jobs where their, really, their life is less of a life. And if you can get out and be in wilderness in any way, you know, the deer hunters, the fishermen, or any kind of a wilderness communal experience, I think it's great for individuals. It's great for their soul. And it's a spiritual experience. So I'm all for it in any way that you can commune with that, that beauty that's in wilderness. That's my experience with it.

RACHEL REABE: Dr. Phelps, let's talk about this. How common is that to think of wilderness or hunting actually as a form of religion?

DR. DWIGHT PHELPS: Well, I am not an expert in all the forms of religion. Certainly, nature has been worshipped. People feel often spiritual in one sense when they get into nature, when they interact with it. I think nature is powerful. I think it's beautiful. And certainly, there are religions that exalt certain parts of nature and worship them.

But again, I'm not I'm not familiar with the various religions, so I couldn't name specifics. The tendency, though, to worship something that's powerful and beautiful and beyond our control, I think is universal. We don't-- it may be a reaction against the concept of god, a person, so that we worship nature. I'm not sure.

RACHEL REABE: Let's go back to the earlier point I wanted to make. We heard Brett Cease in here, a 13-year-old going out for his first hunt. And we heard from his dad, Kevin, when he was 13 years old and went to the woods. And what an important rite of passage that was for him. Do we have a serious lack of rites of passage in our culture now? I hear people often saying, you know, when is it you get to be a grown up. We don't have any formalized ceremony for the most part. Are these rites of passage quite important? What function do they serve?

DR. DWIGHT PHELPS: Well, I think we come up with rites of passage, and I'm not quoting research here or anything. These are observations. Every group seems to have rites of passage. If you live in a big city, if you live in another country, if you don't hunt, if you do, you will have rites of passage. And every group seems to have theirs, whether it's getting a driver's license, or having children, or something else. In this area, hunting is one of those.

I think we will have rites of passage. We need markers and methods by which to confer status and maturity and responsibilities on people. So I think we'll find them wherever we are. Hunting is just another one that we seem to prefer here in Northern Minnesota.

RACHEL REABE: We've talked about earlier in this show going out into the woods, getting away from your regular life, not having the laptop computer, not having the TV, the VCR, the Nintendo, all the sort of electronic gadgets and gizmos that become such a part of everyday life. You hear people constantly saying, I can't think if there's not some other noise in the background, if I don't have the radio on, if I don't have the TV on. What function does it serve going away into the woods and hearing the silent? Do we see a rebirth of conversation in these outings when people go out and must speak to each other instead of watching a screen together?

DR. DWIGHT PHELPS: Well, one of the observations that I've made over the years is that there are a lot of groups that seem to go to the woods, pull the camping trailer out there, or go to the hunting shack who very fiercely protect their culture they've developed, which is a sort of inaccessible culture. And when somebody brings high tech equipment, someone brings a phone-- excuse me, someone brings a phone or a pager, as I guess Corey had, or has access to the outside world, that there are sanctions in place by the group, that this isn't the way we do things.

We don't bring TVS, we don't bring radios. We talk with each other. We tell jokes, stories, lies, whatever we want to tell. Many groups seem to develop or carry out, not something that I think is as close as some of us come to an oral tradition in that, yeah, in Cease's case they marked down deer that were gotten and then they sold the house. So now they can go on with the tradition.

And oral traditions sometimes encapsulate values of a group or almost caricaturize what this group stands for. The stories that are told year after year are stories that are funny for a reason because maybe they-- someone stumbled over some group norms, or because they are powerful, danger was involved, or because of a particular incident that stands out in that group's collective mind as being important. And so we develop an oral tradition. We need to tell the stories. In Cease's case, Kent probably needs to tell this story. It wouldn't be hunting season without it, even though anybody could tell it. They've heard it enough times. It's still important.

RACHEL REABE: Do we love the repetition of it? I've heard deer hunting groups who say we have the same hot dish always the Friday night before deer hunting. We get up at the same time always on opening day. We eat the same things. I heard Kevin and his brother talking about wearing the same crummy old hat that they wore every year.

The son now is hunting with the same gun that his father had his first hunt, the grandfather's gun, the great grandfather's gun. Is repetition important to adults as much as it is to kids? It seems like children love to do the same thing, to know, yes, we're always going to have wild rice soup on Christmas Eve because, mom, you made it last year and the year before. And I guess that qualifies as a tradition. We know it's important for kids. Is it as important for adults?

DR. DWIGHT PHELPS: Well, I guess I'm thinking of two answers to that one. Yes, it is important. Repetition is efficient. Habits are efficient. At the same time, one thing that ritual type behaviors actually do, habits with meaning, if I could say it that way, one thing they seem to do is to easily help us to connect with this, this bigger context we belong to, the meaning of the event.

And whether it's a religious event or a hunting kind of event, there's a deeper meaning behind it. There are values. There are-- there's family history. There's a sense of rootedness. We have names for places, names for stories. We have categories for our fellow hunters that tie us back often into a history, our roots.

Let me give an example that I'm thinking of as I'm saying this. The land that I hunt on with my family, I have a fairly large family and our extended family hunting group gets to be fairly large. It's land that's now public land on which my father was born. And my grandparents homesteaded on this land. My grandfather cleared with an ax and horses. The field that is there.

And my father was born out there in the woods. We can see the hole in the ground where the cellar was. The house was burned down years later. And when we hunt over this land, and when we tell stories about it, we know the land, we know the hills, we know the swamps, we know the old roads. And we have names for them from long, long ago.

And people that my dad knew as a child seem as familiar to us as if we knew them personally. And that sense of being rooted, of belonging to the land, to that place in this part of the country is very, very strong, especially during hunting season. That's where we go back to those roots. And the stories serve that purpose and the repetition easily connects us.

RACHEL REABE: We have spoken during much of our show today to men about deer hunting. It's important to point out in the show that deer hunting is not just for men. About 5% of the state's deer hunters are women and their numbers are growing nationwide.

The number of female firearms hunters has jumped almost 30% since 1990. Jean Bergerson of Grand Rapids has hunted for 30 years. She joins us today to talk about a new national program designed to teach women how to hunt and fish. Welcome, Jean. Thanks for joining us today.

JEAN BERGERSON: Good afternoon.

RACHEL REABE: You're the state coordinator for the Becoming an Outdoor Woman Program. What's that all about?

JEAN BERGERSON: Well, it's about getting more women involved in what have been traditionally male sports, hunting and angling. And we do workshops and formats in which we want to teach and familiarize women with hunting and shooting sports, angling and other related activities to that. And we also do canoeing and nature photography and some of the more non-consumptive traditional outdoor activities.

RACHEL REABE: You heard the statistics and it anecdotally yourself that there are more women that are interested in hunting and deer hunting. Big game going after big game. Are you personally seeing more women in the woods? Is it not unusual in 1997 to see a party come through and to see a woman as part of it, or to see a party of all women?

JEAN BERGERSON: Well, it's interesting because I'm just starting to see parties of mostly women or all women. I've bow hunted for a number of years and hunted by myself. And I'm just seeing women reach a comfort level with being in the woods and with hunting where they will go and do those things by themselves rather than always needing to be part of the traditionally male family group or doing it with a significant other.

RACHEL REABE: I've seen statistically that most women get into hunting because they're either born into a family or they have a husband who takes them hunting, teaches them hunting, or a boyfriend. When people don't-- when women don't have those opportunities, they didn't grow up in a hunting family, and whether there are men in their life or not, they're not learning it from them. Is that why the workshops-- that there has to be an opportunity to teach these skills if people don't have another way to learn them? You can't just get a gun and head out for the woods, I wouldn't think.

JEAN BERGERSON: Well, it's kind of interesting because we have women from 18 to 80 in the workshops, and some of them are women who traditionally hunted in the way that you're talking. They were small children and started out like I did with a family group. And then got into those other rituals of life that Dr. Phelps was talking about, having children, raising families, working. And some of them, once they retired, said, you know, I really remember as a kid doing these things. And I would like to go back to them.

Some of them are women that are single parent moms that are saying, geez, I've got a son or a daughter at home that would really like to do these things, and I'd really like to learn about them. So I could go with them or so I could teach them. And others are just women that are kind of striking out independently and saying, geez, this seems like fun. I'd like to give it a try. So women approach things in different ways.

I was just talking to a couple of fellows yesterday and I said, guys would go to the sports shop and buy a gun and buy a license and say, well, I'm going to do it. And women say, I'm going to go to the library and read about it, or I'm going to take a workshop, or I'm going to go to a clinic, and I'm going to learn about it. And then from there, I'll decide whether I'm going to really do it or not.

RACHEL REABE: So a whole different way of learning about it.

JEAN BERGERSON: It's a different approach. And I think part of that has been the insecurity of not traditionally doing those things. And so you don't feel like innately you ought to be able to go out and deer hunt. So you research it and you want to make sure that you do a good job of what you're doing because women do not do it for the same I hate to call it macho reasons, but they're not as competitive about their sports as men are. And so they do it more because they enjoy nature and because they want to do some of the other things that are associated with hunting rather than just harvesting the animals.

RACHEL REABE: Jean how did you get into hunting?

JEAN BERGERSON: I got into hunting-- it's interesting-- the same way that the other folks did. I was raised on a farm and killing animals for food was part of the culture of the farm, whether it was the chickens Dr. Phelps was talking about or shooting the squirrels so they didn't raid the corn crib and make mess out of our crop that we needed for the cattle for the winter. And a lot of us that were raised on farms got into hunting out of necessity. And then an adult life, excuse me, realized that was our connection to nature and wanted to maintain it for that reason.

RACHEL REABE: We have a phone call on the line. Pat, you can go ahead with your question or comment, if you would.

AUDIENCE: OK. I was just chewing my lunch, so I might sound funny. I wonder what it is that has caused these men to doubt their masculinity so much that they feel that they have to go out and kill something-- a creature that's not threatening them and they don't need for food.

I just heard that women like to do it too. I think that's more an artificial thing, the women. It's rather new for women to do it in great numbers. And they're talking about being alone in the woods as one was a spiritual experience, being one with nature. You don't have to kill something to be alone in the woods and have a spiritual experience.

As for food, there is no-- I can't see any opposition between eating meat that you get commercially and not wanting to kill deer because you don't need the deer for food. We can go to the store and buy meat. And I'm a carnivore. I don't think it's wrong to eat meat, but you don't need to do this. So I just wonder what has happened to these men, modern men, that they feel they have to do this. I'd like to hear some theories about this besides the wonderful traditions.

RACHEL REABE: Jean, let's have you address that. Why the need to hunt? Do you feel a need to hunt or is it like any other activity you just enjoy hunting?

JEAN BERGERSON: Well, I'd like to make probably three comments on that. One is it's not new to women. It's actually very old to women. That traditionally frontier women did hunt because their husbands were off trapping or doing other things and they hunted to provide food for their families. Now, the caller's point is that we no longer need to do that. That's true. But one of the reasons that I hunt is it's far healthier food than you can buy in a grocery store. It's far lower in cholesterol. And I honestly and seriously enjoy eating wild game far more than anything I can buy in a grocery store.

RACHEL REABE: Jean, have you been surprised by the interest shown in your becoming an Outdoor Woman workshops and you have for a year. Minnesota is one state chapter in a national-- this is a national organization. We need to make that clear. Have you been surprised by the interest shown.

JEAN BERGERSON: Yes, nationwide, we have about 10,000 women that have participated in the program since 1991. And I think it's growing. And I think that the reasons it's growing is a couple of things. More and more women are finding out about the program, but also more and more women are looking for ways to get out of the urban community and do that reconnection with nature that we were talking about.

RACHEL REABE: Will you be out in the woods or in the fields on Saturday?

JEAN BERGERSON: I have been out in the woods and fields and I will not be out this Saturday deer hunting. I no longer firearms hunt in the traditional season. I hunt with primitive weapons. So for the last several years, I've done my deer hunting, either with a bow and arrow or with a muzzleloader. And interestingly enough, I just returned from a deer hunt in Alabama, which was an all women's hunt with 27 other women. And it was the first time I had been at deer camp with 27 women. And there were some real interesting observations that those of us that traditionally are part of all male camp made on that hunt.

RACHEL REABE: Thank you for joining us for this special Mainstreet Radio broadcast. We'd like to thank all of our guests today Joe Wood, Jim Bryant, Kevin, Brett, and Corey Cease, Dwight Phelps, and Jean Bergerson, as well as our callers. Our Saint Paul producer for the show was Sarah Meyer. Mel Sommer and Kate Smith were the executive producers. Our engineer today was Rick Habzinski on location and Randy Johnson in Saint Paul. We'd like to thank Kristi Booth and Ellen Barr of KNBJ KCRB for their hospitality in bringing you this show from Bemidji. Thanks also to our site producer Joe Kelly.

Minnesota Public Radio's Mainstreet Radio team is Mark Steil, Catherine Winter, Leif Enger, Dan Gunderson and myself, Rachel Reabe. We invite you to visit the Mainstreet website. Go to www.mpr.org and click Mainstreet. You can access Mainstreet radio reports. You can also hear this program on the Mainstreet website. The address, again, is www.mpr.org. and click on Mainstreet. MPR's Mainstreet Radio coverage of rural issues is supported by the Blandin foundation, committed to strengthening communities through grant making, leadership training, and convening.

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