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WILLIAM WILCOXEN: Good morning with news from Minnesota Public Radio. I'm William Wilcoxen. Minnesota delegates are ready for the opening of Republican National Convention in San Diego today. Mark Piepho is an alternate delegate for Bob Dole from Minnesota's 1st Congressional District. Piepho says he likes Dole's economic plan to cut taxes and encourage growth.

MARK PIEPHO (ON PHONE): It's worked before. It worked for Harry Truman. It worked for John F. Kennedy.

It worked for Ronald Reagan. And it's better for our taxpayers. It's better for the country.

WILLIAM WILCOXEN: Piepho says he thinks dole should spend most of his time on the campaign trail, emphasizing his economic plan. North Dakota Republican congressional candidate Kevin Cramer is scheduled to give a brief speech at the GOP convention tonight. Cramer is tentatively scheduled to speak, between 5 and 6 o'clock, Central time. Cramer will share the podium tonight with speakers, including retired Army General Colin Powell and former presidents George Bush and Gerald Ford.

Some African-American residents of Toledo, Ohio, are fighting a plan to let a Minnesota-based company run the city's public school system, which has a minority enrollment of 50%. The Toledo school board is considering hiring Public Strategies group of Saint Paul to replace a retiring superintendent. All 12 partners in Public Strategies Group are white. At a meeting over the weekend, Black community groups questioned whether Public Strategies can properly serve the educational needs of African-American students.

At a hearing on pretrial motions in the case against the State Senate Majority Leader is underway in Saint Paul. Roger Moe and two of his staff members are in the courtroom of Ramsey County Judge Donald Gross. They're accused of permitting a state employee to use state equipment for political purposes. They're also accused of allowing political fundraising on state time.

A mostly sunny day in the forecast for Minnesota. Highs from the upper 70s near Lake Superior to nearly 90 degrees in Western Minnesota. In the Twin cities, sunny with a high in the mid 80s.

Currently in Saint cloud, it's sunny and 68. In the Twin cities, sunny and 70 degrees. And that's news from Minnesota Public Radio. I'm William Wilcoxen.

PAULA SCHROEDER: It's six minutes past 10 o'clock. I'm Paula Schroeder. This is Mid-Morning on Minnesota Public Radio.

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Today on our Voices of Minnesota interview, we're going to hear from Roger Toogood. This is Roger Toogood's last week as president of Children's Home Society of Minnesota. He's led the nonprofit Saint-Paul-based agency for 38 years.

His fans call him a pragmatist, a conciliator and an effective advocate for children. But he has had his detractors over the years as well. Toogood talked with Minnesota Public Radio's Dan Olson about the agency's work and about our country's attitude toward children and families.

ROGER TOOGOOD: One of the things that I should clarify, that although Children's Home Society, in 107 years, focused only on adoption, that we are now the largest nonprofit provider of child abuse prevention service in Minnesota and the largest provider of child care and the 10th largest in the nation. But we continue to be a major leader in adoption services throughout America.

DAN OLSON: In fact, you made that change about how long ago? And for what reason did you diversify?

ROGER TOOGOOD: When I came to the Children's Home Society in 1969, there had been the 86-year history of adoption only. I was hired with the specific opportunity and challenge to broaden into other areas of child services. And so through strategic planning and really long-range planning committees, we identified in 1971 that we should be involved in child day care.

And so we opened our first center in February of 1972, which was at a time that most people were saying that moms should stay home with the children. And of course, we all support that philosophically. But the reality is that in Minnesota today, 69% of mothers with children under the age of six are in the workforce.

DAN OLSON: Did the agency take a lot of heat for that, opening those daycare centers then and getting a lot of criticism that, wait a minute, you're contributing to the downfall of America here?

ROGER TOOGOOD: Absolutely. When we made that first move in 1972, not only the agency, but Roger Toogood, the executive director, took a lot of heat from staff and from some of the community people. But we knew from our experience in working with unmarried mothers at that time and unmarried fathers, that there were a lot of single parents who were wanting to become self sufficient. And there was not quality, affordable child care to enable them to continue their education, to get back on the job and to get out there and become really contributing members of society. So we saw that from our experience of those women who were pregnant, not married, and who were not selecting adoption as the best plan for themselves and the child.

DAN OLSON: What are your personal reflection on the kids who you see at children's home centers who are getting day care. We have people who, every day, refer to children in day centers as being children being raised by strangers, is one of the expressions I've heard.

ROGER TOOGOOD: Well, the research indicates very clearly in 27 years-- actually 25 years of watching child care, if it is quality, if it has staff that are there over long periods of time-- matter of fact, I've met a number of staff this morning who had been with us for 10, 12, 15 years, one 21 years. So if you have quality child care in an environment that's nurturing and ties the parents in, it's a whole different scenario than just dropping a child off in an environment where the people are not experienced, they don't know how to nurture the child, they do the best they can. So the research and experience indicates that if it's good child care, the child is not damaged.

The children actually gain more sociability skills. They get the love and the nurturing and the care they need, even though it's substitute. And parents that really research child care centers and pick out the best are people who are the most interested in the children. So child care in and of itself is not a negative or a detriment, but it is how it ties in with the parents really spending quality time.

DAN OLSON: Apparently, the turnover rate at children's home centers is fairly low. I don't the turnover rate overall, but I think there are some centers with a very high turnover rate out there in the population and fairly low rates of pay. What's the turnover rate? What's the rate of pay for care workers at children's home centers?

ROGER TOOGOOD: I'm not going to be able to give you the specific salaries because we have 437 staff and there's a tremendous variation. And we have high expectations in the sense of education and training. And we also have a total compensation package. We're one of the few child care providers in America that provide not only health insurance for the employee, but a pension program, dental insurance and life insurance, as well as vacation and sick leave time. Most child care providers do not do all those kinds of things.

But the bottom line is that what child care staff are paid is just not fair and it's not equitable in today's world. And as the unemployment rate drops to what? 2.7% right now in Minnesota, that people can go to Burger King, and Wendy's, and other places and be making $5.50, $7.50 an hour. So it is getting much more difficult to recruit and maintain quality staff in child care. So we have to really look at our values as an American society between what we're paying athletes and what we're paying people that are helping to rear the future leaders of America.

DAN OLSON: Well, let's talk about those values for just a little bit. Not too many days ago, the news item was that the number of children in the United States who have no health care insurance hit a record. It was in the range of 10 million children in this country who have no health insurance coverage, the highest number apparently in the history of the country. By contrast, we spend, as we age, most of our national income on ourselves as we age, as we get older, in the last six to nine months of life or whatever. What does that tell us about our values as a country and where we place our values and who has political power?

ROGER TOOGOOD: Well, we walked right into the issue of who has the power and who has the votes. The children of America and the children of Minnesota, as you know, our population is about 4 and 1/2 million, and there's about 1,200,000 children in Minnesota under the age of 18. Those million 200,000 children in Minnesota do not have a vote.

The elderly people do have votes. And they deserve good quality medical care, but so do the children. There are some people that are ripping off the system. They're not being responsible.

They should be forced into work. They should not be having children outside of legal marriage. And all those things are right. That kind of behavior should not be condoned and should not be happening.

But at the same time, we as a nation do not have the political will nor the internal fortitude to make the tough decisions and saying, OK, parents-- people, if you're going to be parents, that you're going to have to take certain classes, like you do if you're going to drive a car or if you're going to be hunters. You have to have classes to learn how to be good parents. Or taking a very tough position that if you do not meet certain expectations, that it's going to be the right of the legislature and the courts to terminate parental rights and place some of these children into families who can provide love and nurture.

DAN OLSON: Well, you haven't said licensing of parents, but you've walked up awfully close to the line of something that sounds a much higher level of regulation some might say, required classes, required parenting classes. I don't know that-- I don't know that strikes many people as being the American way that we can intrude on what we consider our personal freedoms in that regard. What do you think?

ROGER TOOGOOD: Well, I've had enough debates on this. I know that it's seen as not the American way. And I would not promote licensing, but I would strongly support the value of education, and knowledge and enabling people who are taking on any major responsibility to have that opportunity and to have it required. And I think that part is something that, although politically would be controversial, if we're really going to value children and if we're going to really do what has to be done to preserve our nation, that we're going to have to make those tough calls.

DAN OLSON: Then you said terminating parents' rights more quickly. We already do a lot of that. So we seem, on one hand, to be very activist in our notion towards taking kids out of dangerous or environments that aren't very good for them. And you say we should do more.

ROGER TOOGOOD: Well, there's a difference between taking children out of homes and putting them into temporary foster care, or residential treatment or group homes and terminating parental rights. The thrust should be, first of all, to keep families intact and not have to remove children at all. The second effort should be, if they have to take them out temporarily, provide the services that are required and necessary.

But there's a point of diminishing returns, and we've walked away from that. When I started in this profession, there was much more of a clarity that if people just did not make an effort, if parents did not make an effort to be adequate and quality parents, then the parental rights were terminated and the children were free to be placed with new families for adoption and have permanence in that way. Today, there's much more hesitancy to terminate parental rights and to free children. And so what we see is a lot of thrust toward trying again, and again and again to correct the problem. And as we're doing that, the children are returned and returned into a unhealthy family environment and the kids are paying the consequences.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Roger Toogood, he retires this week as president of Children's Home Society of Minnesota. The Saint-Paul-based nonprofit agency is the state's largest provider of child abuse prevention and child care services. You're listening to our Voices of Minnesota interview on Mid-Morning. Roger Toogood's conversation with Dan Olson continues in just a moment.

I'll tell you that in the weather today, it's going to be quite pleasant, with mostly sunny skies and highs from the upper 70s in the northeast to around 90 in the west. There are some thunderstorms that are going to be moving into our area overnight tonight and continuing during the day tomorrow. And eventually, skies will become partly to mostly sunny once again, but it's going to be breezy during the day tomorrow. It should be a little bit cooler as well in the northeastern part of the state, only getting up to around 70 degrees for a high. Look for highs in the upper 70s to mid 80s in the southwest.

It is 18 minutes past 10 o'clock. You're listening to Mid-Morning on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Paula Schroeder.

Coming up after our conversation with Roger Toogood, we'll be talking with Holly van Gulden who is co-author of a book called Real Parents, Real Children. And she talks about some of the challenges of raising adopted children and has some ideas for being honest with them about their backgrounds. So that's coming up after our Voices of Minnesota interview. Let's return now to Dan Olson's conversation with Roger Toogood.

DAN OLSON: We're a very wealthy nation at this moment with a growing economy, very low unemployment rate at least officially reported. But are kids, generally speaking, better off today than they were when you started in the social work area, or is it a more precarious time now for kids?

ROGER TOOGOOD: No question, it's a more precarious time for children. They are facing many more challenges and stresses. One of the biggest issues that has been introduced since I started 38 years ago is the crack cocaine episode.

It's a drug that a lot of people do not understand. From the point of view that it is cheaper, it gives the high, but it also creates a high level of anger, and hostility and meanness. And so a lot of the abuse that is happening is happening around that.

But also, the concentration of dollars in America on the prison system instead of into prevention has really skewed things. I was just at a national conference where people from the state of Michigan were indicating that they're opening a new prison on the average of once a month and that the cost of running those prisons 24 hours a day and 365 days a year has now sapped the dollars out of the prevention programs and human services, out of the educational system as a start. And that all of a sudden they're realizing that although Americans value punishing those people, locking them up forever, that it's a tremendous, expensive solution to the problem, and that we've got to look at other things to make sure that children have a loving, nurturing, stable, positive environment. And there's ways to do that, that are a lot less expensive and will have greater results in impact.

DAN OLSON: Sounds like your argument is for taxpayers to say to Congress, look, just send a lot more money off to programs, Children's Home Society, other nonprofits with programs that work.

ROGER TOOGOOD: No, I'm not saying that at all. I really believe in the local focus. And one of the reasons that Children's Home Society of Minnesota has expanded when I came from 33 staff to 437 staff from a budget of $400,000 out to $12 million is because we believe in the local process. We believe in the nonprofit effort. We believe that the local citizens and volunteers, like our board of directors of 48 citizens around the state, can make quicker and more powerful decisions in being able to respond to some of these needs.

So no, not just more governmental dollars, but governmental dollars, nonprofit dollars, voluntary dollars that focus on those things that work. Let's not just keep trying to find something new. Let's identify those things that have outcome, results, that are proven successes. And let's focus children as a high priority. And let's realize that in the full gamut of dollars being expended, that the money's going for national defense and for subsidizing tobacco growers and others, and the list goes on and on, is tremendously more significant than the few dollars that are going into children's services.

DAN OLSON: Related to that, then it doesn't sound like you necessarily favor a huge federal or state job creation, make-work style program.

ROGER TOOGOOD: Absolutely not. I would not support that in any way.

DAN OLSON: But how would families get stability if they don't have work, whether it's jobs created by the public sector or the private sector? And big fan of yours, Esther Wattenberg says the issue is jobs.

ROGER TOOGOOD: Well, and Esther is very wise, and I certainly support what she is saying on that. And I'm sure if she said it-- and I know she said it. I've heard her. But it's jobs, but I'm sure she added quality jobs, jobs that pay a living wage, not just having somebody having three jobs that are paying minimum wage. And so there has to be the dignity, and there has to be the opportunity, and there has to be the total compensation with benefits as well. So both Esther and I would say jobs that pay a living wage and give people hope.

DAN OLSON: Well, even though Children's Home Society has evolved dramatically from its days of placing children for adoption, in fact, is adoption is still a certain amount of the activity of the agency. And in that regard, I'm curious to hear what's happening to adoption. Is it more popular than ever before, or is adoption now, really a much smaller part of public policy discussion when it comes to solving some of the issues we've been talking about?

ROGER TOOGOOD: For Children's Home society of Minnesota, adoption is still a very, very significant program, although it is one of the smaller programs at our agency now. In 1995, we placed 452 children, which put us either number one or number two in the nation as far as the number of children placed. We have diversified tremendously and we made a lot of changes in the-- we have three broad categories very quickly.

One is the infant adoption, one is the special need waiting American child, and one is international adoption. In the area of the infant adoption, we have gone to what is called openness in adoption, where the birth parents are empowered and the adopting families themselves, if they want to, to have some kind of openness either over the phone, or exchange of letters or meeting face to face. And we have found that, that is enabling more birth mothers and birth fathers to consider adoption because they are involved.

DAN OLSON: Apparently, some of the number of children who are available for adoption is still large, I assume, but has changed greatly because many more birth mothers are now willing to keep their children and raise their children.

ROGER TOOGOOD: Well, that's one of the interesting changes in the 38 years that I've been involved. When I started in 1958, 90% to 95% of all children born outside of legal marriage were placed into adoptive families. And today, in Minnesota and across the nation, less than somewhere around 5% of all children that are born outside of legal marriage are placed for adoption. So a complete switch in those 38 years.

DAN OLSON: Is it a good trend?

ROGER TOOGOOD: I would say that there's certainly positives. But again, going back to our previous discussion, that if it's a woman, regardless of her age, who is not in a position to provide what the child needs, the tough love would lead to the conclusion that adoption should be selected.

DAN OLSON: What does adoption cost these days?

ROGER TOOGOOD: It varies depending upon whether it's an international program, the waiting American child special need or the infant adoption. Children's Home Society of Minnesota has a sliding fee. The fee itself is never a barrier to adoption, and so it ranges from 0 to a figure based on the W-2 form. But our highest cost of our services would be $4,800.

Now, if you get involved in international adoption, and you have to pay the airline fee and the international agency's fee, those dollars actually can increase significantly. But for the special needs child, the youngster who-- an example of a child we placed a couple of years ago without any arms or legs, those families taking those children, the fee is not the important factor at all. We waive those completely if we have to.

DAN OLSON: We hear every so often episodes of claims, media accounts of parents in other countries of the world selling their children, or having their children abducted or some other arrangement. Are those accounts overblown and that's a small, small percentage of the international adoptions that take place, presumably through private adoptions, or is that a big problem?

ROGER TOOGOOD: It is a problem. It's not a big problem. Children's Home Society of Minnesota works with 15 different countries. Matter of fact, one of our staff, Dave Pilgrim, is going to be elected the president of what's called the Joint Council on International Adoption. And we are very selective in the countries that we will work with and the agencies in those countries.

We have to make sure that they are highly ethical, that there's no money going under the table and that all of the health standards are followed. But there's certainly, in all aspects of life, some unscrupulous people. And I don't think it's a big problem, but it certainly is something that happens.

DAN OLSON: We heard some really remarkable accounts from a human rights organization looking at the situation in China, and coming down very hard on China and saying that in some cases, they have neglected children at orphanages in China to the point of death. And then this is very hard for people who have adopted children from China to here because they've been visiting institutions which are very well run. Children are well fed. What do you think is the truth about the situation for the care of children without parents in China?

ROGER TOOGOOD: I was in China in September and October of 1995. Our agency has a major program with China. We placed some 80 children in 1995. We'll place probably 150 children in 1996.

I visited a number of the orphanages. I met with all the major government people in Beijing and other parts of China. And the reality is that we Americans often judge other countries that are underdeveloped with our own standards.

And certainly there are difficulties. The orphanages were not up to the standard of our child care institutions here in America, but my impression was very distinctly that they're doing their very best. And the fact that they are supporting international adoption indicates that they are trying to find more positive and creative solutions for their children.

DAN OLSON: Roger Toogood, thanks a lot for your time. A pleasure talking to you.

ROGER TOOGOOD: Likewise, I really enjoyed talking with you.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Roger Toogood retires this week as president of Children's Home Society of Minnesota. He talked with Minnesota Public Radio's Dan Olson for this week's Voices of Minnesota.

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SPEAKER: As Bob Dole attempts to round up support and unify his party, Minnesota delegates to the Republican National Convention are flush with hope for their own candidates and a chance to build on recent victories in the legislature. Join Minnesota ' Radio all this week for continuing coverage of the events in San Diego, with live reports from the convention, call ins and special programs to bring you the latest news. In-depth convention coverage on Minnesota Public radio, KNOW FM 91.1 in the Twin Cities.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Today's programming is sponsored in part by listeners who have helped secure Minnesota Public Radio's future by including MPR in their wills. It's 29 and 1/2 minutes past 10 o'clock. You're listening to Mid-Morning on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Paula Schroeder.

Well, Children's Home Society has placed thousands of children in adoptive homes over the years and was instrumental in establishing a connection between Korea and the United States. As a result, Minnesota has the highest number of Korean adoptees in the country. Children's Home and other agencies, such as Lutheran Social Services, have gone on to develop relationships with adoption agencies in other countries as well.

Today, children come here from South America, India, Russia, and China and many other nations. Whether children are adopted from thousands of miles away or from a nearby town in the Midwest, they will undoubtedly have questions about their origins. Who were my mother and father? Why was I given up for adoption? Do I have brothers and sisters I don't know about?

Often adoptive parents don't know the answers to these questions, and hearing them can be painful for them. Yet our guest today says it's imperative that adopted children be allowed to ask the questions and that parents be honest in their replies. Holly van Gulden is an adoption counselor who presents workshops to adoptive parents, foster parents, and professionals in the field.

She's talked in 35 states, Canada, England and Scotland. She has worked in the adoption field since 1975, first as a placement worker and later as a family counselor. She grew up in a multiracial international family of biological children, adoptees and foster kids.

And she's the mother of three, two children adopted. She is the co-author of a book called Real Parents, Real Children, Parenting the Adopted Child. And she's with us in our studios today. Good morning, Holly.

HOLLY VAN GULDEN: Good morning.

PAULA SCHROEDER: It's good to have you here with us today. As we heard Roger Toogood say in his interview with Dan Olson, there are children coming to Minnesota from all over the world. And you, in fact, grew up in a family with-- it was a multiracial family, international adoptions as well. And growing up in a family like that, certainly, you heard a lot of their questions. What were some of the most basic questions that they had?

HOLLY VAN GULDEN: All of my adopted siblings are male. So when I say my brothers, that's why I'm saying that. I recall various times in our years together where my brothers would be playing and all of a sudden run through the kitchen and say, why did this happen? Why did they do this to me? Or where are my parents now, or what are they doing now?

Or one brother was very verbal about it and he would come in and say, do you think my birth mom liked to sew? And then he took up a mad round of sewing. And then he decided she did rug making so he did some rug making.

And it became very apparent to me as a sibling that these things were very important to them. And I had brothers who joined the family at various ages, 7 months, 13 months, 15 years of age, 9 years of age, 6. And all of them wanted to know more about who these people were, and why they did what they did, and what it meant about them.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Did they ask those questions on their own, or was the atmosphere in your house one of openness and they were encouraged to ask those questions?

HOLLY VAN GULDEN: That's a very hard thing to answer. I think it was a combination. Very much, there was an open atmosphere.

Adoption, especially international adoption, and older child adoption and adoption of children with special needs was fairly new when my parents were adopting. So everybody was flying by the seat of their pants. And in that sense, openness came naturally to that because we were an open family, not a lot of closed topics. And in addition, I think my parents, we've talked about it many times, were often surprised at first at some of the things my brothers wanted to know.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Well, certainly it sounds like they knew all along that they were adopted. Because in some families, that is kept secret.

HOLLY VAN GULDEN: That's true. Yes.

PAULA SCHROEDER: But still they have these kinds of questions. You talk in your book about the importance of validating children's feelings of loss and grief because that's really what it means. It's a separation from that birth parent, which is like a death for a lot of kids, but that isn't always acknowledged.

HOLLY VAN GULDEN: It's not acknowledged much more than I wish were so. I think as a society, and prospective adoptive parents and new adoptive parents, we tend to focus on our view of it, which is the child got a new family and we got a child. And we forget that every child available for-- or in need of placement rather than available for, every child in placement is there because they've lost a potential home and a family even if they never knew them.

We acknowledge as a society that if a child grows up never knowing their father through death, or divorce or parents were never married and dad was never part of their life, that it's a legitimate process for that child to want to know who that dad was. But in the same way, we don't acknowledge that an adoptive child who may grow up not knowing their birth mother or their birth father would want to know who those people were and why they aren't in their lives. It's the same type of process for the child, only more difficult because both genetic parents are missing. And we do the opposite with it.

In divorce, it's accepted the child would want to know it. In adoption, we're getting there. But for many years, it's been believed and almost wished that they didn't want to know anything about this. There's no need, they have a family.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Well, in fact, a lot of parents-- and I love this way of describing adoptive children-- that they are chosen children. That they are in a family because they were wanted so much. But that still doesn't make up for that loss.

HOLLY VAN GULDEN: It doesn't make up for the loss and sometimes it's very confusing. Whether you use the language chosen children or not, children look at how I perceive my parents' opinion of my value. And their adoptive parents have chosen to raise them, which says you are valuable. And their birth parents have chosen not to, which can be interpreted as I'm not valuable.

So the real complexity isn't just that the child has a loss to process that may not be acknowledged. And you can't really healthfully process losses that somebody around you doesn't acknowledge. In addition to that, it's what we call in the book the dichotomy of adoption. There is a loss and then there is, hopefully for the child soon thereafter, a gain. And we tend to want to pretend the gain wipes out the loss rather than the child's going to have to figure out what both of those mean about me and come to a decision that I'm valuable with both sets of actions.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Which can be a lifetime process.

HOLLY VAN GULDEN: Yes, it can.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Yeah. We're talking with Holly van Gulden. She is the co-author with Lisa Bartels-Rabb of a book called Real Parents, Real Children. And we have some time to take a few questions from those of you who are interested in finding out how to be an open and honest parent with an adopted child. And you can give us a call here in the Twin Cities at 227-6000, or you can reach us toll free at 1-800-242-2828. 227-6000 or 1-800-242-2828.

Let's go back-- I want to go back to the title of the book, Real Parents, Real Children. We were talking a little bit about that before we went on the air about how often parents of adopted children are asked, is that your real child? And I guess one of my responses would be, well, it's not a fake child. But this is-- it's a common question, isn't it?

HOLLY VAN GULDEN: It's a common question. It's a question that means no harm, but can cause a great deal of harm to a child for a variety of reasons. One, adopted children can begin to believe that they're not as human as other children if they aren't put in touch with-- you have ancestors and genetic roots.

If you hear people saying you don't really belong or are you a real child, they interpret that, that I don't belong and that there's something not quite human about me. The potential to interpret that is there. Part of it is the public saying that doesn't have the language. Have you given birth to any children? would be an appropriate question. Probably not helpful completely in front of the children, because that suggests that's a better experience.

Sometimes adoptive parents use that language. It's a lot of education about how a child will hear this and what it says to the child. And that's why we chose the name Real Parents, Real Children, because you hear it pejoratively so many times when you are growing up adopted or have adopted siblings. I used to get asked, are those your real brothers? And I didn't like it at all. In fact, I was a tomboy so I beat people up.

[LAUGHS]

PAULA SCHROEDER: Really?

HOLLY VAN GULDEN: Well, one or two on the school bus, as I recall. And my parents told me I couldn't do that anymore. So I go back a long way with the real thing.

And then when I became a parent, in front of my children, people would say, are they really yours? Do you have any real children. And you watch the children's faces, and it's a horrendously devastating comment to them.

Most of the time, people don't realize what they're doing. So we decided to flip it around and say, you really are parent and child, brother and sister. You didn't come together in the same way. I'm not my child's birth mother, the two that joined my family through adoption, but I really am their mom.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Right, which is what any adoptive parent would say, I think. You grew up in the family that you grew up in. And of course, there are many, many families, as I pointed out here in Minnesota, where there have been interracial adoptions or transracial-- I don't know exactly the correct term to use there-- but anyway, of like Korean adoptees coming to live with white families. And there's been a lot of controversy about that. Just based on your own experience and then some of the families that you've worked with, how much more difficult is that to bring a child of a different ethnic heritage into a family?

HOLLY VAN GULDEN: I think it's a very complex process, and I do believe it can work. Obviously, both of my children were born in other countries and are of other races. And my siblings and I would never say that interracial or transracial adoption cannot work.

I would also, however, say that one needs to be prepared to find ways to present the child's heritage, to accept that the culture you live in is not fully their heritage, and that they're going to need to make choices about how they express their racial identity. And they may not match the way you live, that they're going to need role models of their race and culture. And it can be very complex.

And I think that when parents are considering transracial adoption, they need to think about their resources, their prejudices. One of the things that scares me the most is parents parenting children of another race or considering it who tell me they're not prejudiced. We live in a prejudice society and we're all prejudiced. And I would rather that we were talking about where do you think your prejudices lie and how attuned can you become to picking up where your child is being hurt.

I was raised white. Even though I am white, I was raised in a white culture with a twist because I grew up in an interracial family. I catch episodes of prejudice, and discrimination and hurtful things happening to my children more than the average Caucasian person in our society and I still miss a lot.

And I've been working on not missing it so I can be there for my children for many years. And it's still a complex thing. My children are all in college or on their own now, and I missed one this summer. My daughter said something and I got up the next morning thought, wait a minute, I missed a piece of that.

And I went back and I said, do you think that professor was? She said, yeah, I felt like that professor was really prejudiced and wasn't expecting much out of me in that class. And that's a tough thing. And I missed it after all these years.

And you can also jump on the bandwagon and see everything as discrimination. So it's a very complex thing. And I think that talk to other parents who are doing this or have done that. There's some wonderful books and literature out there about what children who are going to be raised interracially and family's need.

It's a big commitment. It can be done. I would hope that someday no child in the world needs placement because they could be raised by their birth parents. And I would hope that someday children could all be raised within their race.

And I believe in minority recruitment, but I don't believe in leaving children in institutions or in permanency while we work to make that happen. Because bottom line, children need family and commitment, and love and support, or they won't develop a positive racial identity. Even if they're with people of their race in an institution, you have to have attachments in caretaker relationships.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Yeah, certainly. If you have some of your own experiences about adoption or if you have some questions about how to raise a healthy adopted child, give us a call here in the Twin Cities at 227-6000 or you can reach us toll free at 1-800-242-2828. 227-6000 or 1-800-242-2828.

Certainly, it sounds like parents have to do a lot of preparation before they even go into the adoption process. And I know that you talk about that in your book about some of the questions that you really have to ask yourself about just how willing you are to dive into this very complex area. And it does take more than just wanting a child, doesn't it?

HOLLY VAN GULDEN: It takes a lot more than just wanting a child. All of parenting takes more than just wanting a child. And it's a difficult thing to encourage people to prepare and try and find out what adoptive parenting is like because many of them have faced infertility and their goal is to get a child.

And my goal is to help them understand that adoptive parenting is both the same as parenting a child born for you and very different. And I know that sounds like a paradox, but it is a paradox. The love and commitment, the challenges, the rough times, the bittersweet times as you watch them pull away from you and grow on their own are all available.

In addition, there are issues that every adopted child faces, whether it's a same-race adoption, that child came from Ramsey County to Hennepin County or came from halfway around the world. Each time you add an additional issue like another country, another race, a child with a special medical need, it gets more complex. But there are special issues. And if you don't know what those are and don't know how to address them, your child's going to be floundering on their own.

PAULA SCHROEDER: We've got some callers on the line and we'll go to Colette, who is calling from Minneapolis. Good morning, Colette.

COLETTE: Good morning. I am an adoptee that-- I'm a biracial adoptee and was adopted by white parents. And I just wanted to thank your guests for what I think is some really constructive comments about adoptees and adoption issues.

Because I'm searching for my birth parents right now and I found that a lot of people don't understand. And they bring up the whole, well, you should be grateful because your adoptive parents saved you from this horrible situation. And I'm just really happy that it's finally being discussed in a way that's not attacking adoptees for wanting to know more about their birth families.

PAULA SCHROEDER: So you're hearing people say to you, listen, be happy with what you've got and why are you going looking for something that isn't going to make any difference in your life?

don't Right. And it's not a rejection of my adoptive family. It's not that at all. It's just that my birth family is part of me. And it's just nice to hear professionals starting to acknowledge that.

HOLLY VAN GULDEN: It's an exploration of who you are rather than a rejection of your family.

PAULA SCHROEDER: What age do children start wanting to look for their birth parents?

HOLLY VAN GULDEN: I'm going to change the question a little. We usually use the word search and adoption. And I like to use that word because searching is a part of grieving. If you lose your keys, you hunt all over for them, even in places you've already looked.

And that doesn't sound like a loss issue. But it's a way to illustrate that we always look for what we lost that we had or what we lost because other people have it and we don't and it has importance to us or would have had importance to us. And adopted children begin various forms of the searching process very young.

Three and four-year-old girls and boys will say, did I grow in your tummy? They will go up to strangers and say, are you the lady whose tummy I grew in? And it's very, very common and quite healthy if their parents know how to help them with that. So searching begins at a very young age.

By middle childhood, children are searching for facts and figures. How tall were they? How short, how fat, how skilled? Did they like math?

If you could tell a child who's struggling with math, you're a birth uncle had a hard time with math. Because if it were genetically related to us, we might say grandpa had that trouble too. You still have to do your math homework. It's not an excuse.

Searching, actively searching, wanting to meet is more common in adolescence or early adulthood. Another time it happens is when you're thinking about forming intimate relationships and/or starting family, your own, and then midlife. But those are common times.

But for each person, the timing of the journey and the journey is different. And what's very important is that the people around the person who joined their family through adoption support that process and try not to feel threatened. Even if you understand it's about the other person, you can start to feel threatened sometimes.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Oh, sure. What if she likes her birth mother better than me? It would be hard not to think that.

HOLLY VAN GULDEN: It would be impossible.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Yeah. Right. We have just a very few minutes left in our conversation today with Holly van Gulden about adoption, but we'll get to as many of you as we can. Larry is calling from Saint Paul. Good morning.

LARRY: Good morning. You're a compassionate and wise woman and I really appreciate what you're saying. I was adopted and began searching, when I was about 35, for my birth relatives. It took about two years.

And I remember Roger Toogood from the agency that he's retiring from. He was fighting open records in those days. We adoptees in Minnesota who were trying to get the law changed didn't see him as a friend at all of adoptees at that point. But I wonder how your brothers are doing?

And I'd just like to say that I asked my mother once, my birth mother, if she had nursed me. And she said, Larry, I never saw you until you walked up my driveway. You were taken away from me. I wasn't allowed to hold you.

I was born in a home for unwed mothers and there was absolutely no bonding. The skids were greased in favor of her abandoning me and she was 22. And it seems to me when I talk to all the adoptees that I know and all the adoptive parents who had all kinds of unexpected problems with their children, it seems to me that adoption is so fraught with problems, and pain and constant, almost constant grief for those of us who survive it and live with it, that shouldn't be encouraged.

I just think it's like cigarette smoking that was thought to be fashionable. It was fashionable and thought to be benign. And then they discovered it was killing people. And I think adoption is killing a lot of people.

PAULA SCHROEDER: It doesn't sound like you've had a very good experience with being adopted.

LARRY: Yes and no. I think my parents loved me, but it's been a very painful experience.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Because of some of those grief and loss issues, certainly.

LARRY: Oh, I think so. Yeah, I think so. It wasn't acknowledged. I wonder how your brothers are doing?

HOLLY VAN GULDEN: My brothers are doing quite well. The one who joined us as a 15-year-old teenager floats on the outside extremes of the family. The rest are connected to the family much more solidly.

And I think we all continue to hope that Ken, in his mid 30s will move in closer at some point, but it's understandable. He lived in institutions until he was 15. Not only in institutions, but he's Black Korean and he was in a segregated institution in Korea. So I think the progress he's made in supporting himself and living and has a sense of his identity but can't be real intimate with family.

He would be the one who still has the most struggle. Some of my brothers have searched, some of them haven't. All of them make continuing decisions about that, as I'm sure my children will.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Well, unfortunately, we're out of time. There are so much more that we can discuss, but this is all covered in the book, Real Parents, Real Children. It's by Holly van Gulden and her co-author, Lisa Bartels-Rabb. And I want to thank you so much for coming in today.

HOLLY VAN GULDEN: Thank you for having me. I enjoyed it.

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GARY EICHTEN: Crazy Horse mountain has become a major South Dakota tourist attraction, a popular stop on trips to the Black Hills. And little wonder, if and when it's completed, the Crazy Horse sculpture will be several times larger than nearby Mount Rushmore. Unlike Mount Rushmore, however, Crazy Horse mountain has generated lots of controversy.

Gary Eichten here inviting you to join us for Midday. We'll present a new documentary on the carving of Crazy Horse mountain. I hope you can join us. Midday begins each weekday morning at 11:00 on Minnesota Public Radio, KNOW FM 91.1 in the Twin Cities.

PAULA SCHROEDER: In the 11 o'clock hour of Midday, we'll have a live report from Minnesota Public Radio's Bob Collins, who's at the Republican National Convention in San Diego. And we'll also learn about the hearing today on charges against state Senate Majority Leader Roger Moe. We'll look at Minnesota's newest sports team as well, the Arctic Blast and how they're doing this year in in-line hockey. That's all coming up on Midday at 11 o'clock. First, here's Garrison Keillor and the Writer's Almanac.

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GARRISON KEILLOR: And here is the Writer's Almanac for Monday. It's the 12th of August, 1996. It's the birthday of the American writer William Goldman, who wrote The Princess Bride, Marathon Man, born in Chicago, 1931.

It's the birthday of Alvis Edgar Owens Jr. in Sherman, Texas, 1929. Dropped out of high school, worked as a truck driver, ditch digger, hay baler and fruit swamper. Started to play the guitar by the age of 16. He was off in Arizona, playing in the honky tonks, where he changed his name to Buck, Buck Owens. And he wrote many songs, including "Act Naturally," "Together Again" and others.

It was on this day in 1908, the first Model T came rolling out of the Ford Motor factory in Detroit. Black four-cylinder car came in the touring version or the Roadster. The Roadster for $825, the tour for $850. The Tin Lizzie, the first mass-produced car.

They got the assembly line perfected to where they could put out a Model T every 93 minutes. And by 1927, they were putting one out every 24 seconds. The second major thing that Henry Ford did was to double his workers' wages so that they could afford to buy the car.

It was on this day in 1896, gold was discovered in the Klondike area of Northwestern Canada, which led to the second great gold rush after the California one. It's the birthday of the American painter George Wesley Bellows, Columbus, Ohio, 1882, painted Prize Fights and The Life of Cities. The film director, Cecil B. DeMille, 1881 Ashfield, Massachusetts, best known for his biblical films, in which he always included plenty of violence, and some good whippings and always a bathing scene.

It was on this day in 1877, Thomas Edison, at the age of 30, recorded the human voice for the first time in history. He recited, "Mary Had a Little Lamb" into his brand new phonograph. It's the birthday of the woman who wrote the words to "America the Beautiful," Katharine Lee Bates, born in Falmouth, Massachusetts, in 1859.

And on this day in 1852, Isaac Singer got a patent for his continuous stitching sewing machine. Here's a poem for today by Ursula Le Guin. It's a stanza from her long poem entitled "Coming of Age."

"This old notebook I write in was my father's. He never wrote in it. A gray man, all my lifetime, with a short gray beard. A slight man, not tall.

The other day I saw five elephants, big elephants with palm trunk legs and continents of sides. And one, the biggest one, had bent tusks bound about with brass. They were waiting patient to be let outside into the sunlight and the autumn air, moving about their stall so quietly using the grace of great size and the gentleness, swaying a little, silent, strong as ships.

That was a great pleasure to see that. And he would have liked to see the big one making water too, like a steaming river enough to float 10 bigots in. Oh, there is nothing like sheer quantity-- mountains, elephants, minds."

A poem by Ursula Le Guin from her collection, Wild Angels, published by Capra Press and used by permission here on the Writer's Almanac for Monday, August the 12th, made possible by Coles History Group, publishers of aviation history and other magazines. Be well, do good work, and keep in touch.

PAULA SCHROEDER: That's Mid-Morning for today. Thanks so much for joining us. We are going to be talking tomorrow with Amy Lindgren from Prototype Career Services. And if you're looking for a job or thinking about changing jobs, take a listen tomorrow because Amy's got some great ideas about how to write a good resume and how to conduct a job search. That's what we'll be talking about tomorrow on Mid-Morning.

Looking at the weather right now, it looks like temperatures are in the upper 60s and low 70s all across our region. We're expecting a very nice day today with mostly sunny skies prevailing before some thunderstorms move in overnight tonight. Have a great rest of the day. And we'll see you back here tomorrow. I'm Paula Schroeder.

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JOHN RABE: Hi, I'm John Rabe. And on Monday's All Things Considered, the Republicans go to San Diego and so do we. It's All Things Considered, weekdays at 3:00 on Minnesota Public Radio, KNOW FM 91.1.

PAULA SCHROEDER: You're listening to Minnesota Public Radio. 73 degrees at KNOW FM 91.1, Minneapolis-Saint Paul. In the Twin Cities today, we're looking for a high, around 85 degrees under sunny skies, an overnight low near 65 with scattered thunderstorms possible around midnight. Breezy and partly sunny by tomorrow afternoon with a high around 80 degrees.