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KAREN BARTA: Good morning. I'm Karen Barta with news from Minnesota Public Radio. DFL leaders got the unified state convention they had hoped for. Delegates overwhelmingly endorsed US Senator Paul Wellstone for re-election. One floor fight was averted when the party's gay and lesbian caucus united behind Wellstone, despite his opposition to same-sex marriage.

A neighborhood meeting will be held tonight in North Minneapolis to galvanize neighborhood response to violence. Last week, an 11-year-old boy was killed in an apparent drive by shooting and Black residents have been reluctant to tell white investigators what they know. Minneapolis City Council president Jackie Cherryhomes, who called tonight's meeting, says a comfortable relationship between city officials and neighborhood residents is a key factor.

JACKIE CHERRYHOMES: I have a diverse staff in my office partly for that reason, because there are people in my office that the community may be more comfortable talking to and helping resolve their issues. And I like I said, I'm not embarrassed about that, ashamed of that or whatever. That's just kind of life. And sometimes if you're not the right messenger, you send in a different messenger.

KAREN BARTA: Cherryhomes says too many North Minneapolis residents are afraid to speak up when they witness a crime for fear of retaliation.

Members of the White Earth band of Ojibwe are preparing to select leaders tomorrow. The vote has delayed the federal trial of tribal chairman Chip Wadena and several other tribal officials accused of corruption. The trial is scheduled to resume Thursday.

The state forecast mostly to partly sunny highs, mainly in the 80s. For the Twin Cities, partly sunny with a high near 85. It's sunny around the region in Rochester at 61 degrees, 67 in Saint Cloud. And in the Twin cities, it's sunny and 73. That's news from Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Karen Barta.

PAULA SCHROEDER: It's six minutes past 10 o'clock. This is Midmorning on Minnesota Public Radio.

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For more than a year, Dave Durenberger has been out of the public eye, living in Washington, DC, as a private citizen for the first time in 15 years. Today on our Voices of Minnesota interview, we'll hear from the 61-year-old former Minnesota Senator. Durenberger says the way history is written, he knows many people will remember him only for pleading guilty to filing false congressional campaign expense accounts and being censured by the US Senate.

Durenberger is a lobbyist in Washington, DC now. Minnesota Public Radio's Mark Zdechlik spoke with Durenberger at his Washington office. Their conversation began with memories of Durenberger's central Minnesota roots, growing up in the shadow of Saint John's University.

DAVE DURENBERGER: The home in which I grew up was one of a dozen homes right on the campus. And my friends were the sons and daughters of people who were called workmen. In those days, it was largely the men that were working and the women were raising kids and everybody was part of the community. Whatever I've done in subsequent years with public service, I've always attributed to this sense of community that is unique to that little part of Stearns County.

MARK ZDECHLIK: Do you think community, in a sense, fosters sort of accountability?

DAVE DURENBERGER: Well, there's no doubt about that. I always remember the story the first time I was stopped for speeding on the road out to Sauk Rapids, I think. And in those days-- I don't know whether they still do it, but in those days, the Saint Cloud Times always printed the reports of who got tagged for speeding and all the rest of that sort of thing.

And so when the police officer checked my license and, of course, he knew my father, George Durenberger, everybody knew my father, he said, well, what do you think your father would say if he read that his boy was speeding in Saint Cloud? And he put his finger right on it. I mean, there is a sense of accountability in a community.

MARK ZDECHLIK: Why did you choose to go to Saint John's University so close to where you grew up?

DAVE DURENBERGER: It was a natural decision. It was also an economic decision. I mean, when you're the son of a teacher, professor, coach, the way they pay the coaches or the way they pay their teachers is by saying, your kids can go to school here for nothing. I mean, that's still kind of goes on in lots of educational institutions. And that's the way they tie you to the institution. And I'm grateful that it worked out that way.

MARK ZDECHLIK: When did the political bug bite Dave Durenberger?

DAVE DURENBERGER: Let's see. I think probably in between the Jaycees and Harold LeVander's decision, my law partner's decision to run for governor. I mean, I always knew I was a Republican. My parents were Republicans, my parents were good Republicans. My dad would have made a marvelous candidate and an officeholder. My mother would too, for that matter.

But I think that I found a lot of relational and community building skills in the time-- that period of time, which I was president of the South Saint Paul Jaycees, so that thereafter in like 1964, '65 when the senior partner in our little law firm, Harold LeVander, was expressing again an interest in running for governor, I sort of got into politics through him. Like Paul, Judge Paul Magnuson and I and the family, and so forth, really, I think, learned our politics in the year that Harold ran.

And then when he offered me the job as his chief of staff for four years, in the last four years of the '60s, that was a cinch. I mean, at that point, I learned that the best and the worst of politics, the best of it, of course, is influencing public policy. The worst of it, of course, is cynicism that goes with the fact that people don't appreciate what you do.

MARK ZDECHLIK: I wanted to talk to you about an early tragedy in your life. You were 36 years old and you lost your first wife. You had four sons. Devastating it must have been at that time.

DAVE DURENBERGER: Yes, and hard to talk about. I mean, I can't really well describe that period of time in my life because I reflect now on the fact that in the late '60s when this was going on, there weren't self-help books and there weren't people hanging around wanting to be helpful like there are today. I mean, I didn't have much help and I always felt I didn't deal with it really, really well.

It's obviously a source of pride that somehow the four sons are tremendous people and their wonderful marriages and one great-grandchild. So it's on a personal side, it was really tough to bear because I couldn't understand it. I think I'm beginning now to understand it as I console friends who are going through something similar. But I don't think I understood it well then. I don't think I've dealt with it very well and probably don't understand it today as well as I should have.

MARK ZDECHLIK: We were talking earlier about the importance of community. What was it that kept you together at that time? You were relatively young man. That could have ruined many people, I would think.

DAVE DURENBERGER: Well, no. I don't think it ruins anybody. I think it builds people. The people that sometimes get ruined are those who get devastated by an instant tragedy. The 3 and 1/2 years that Judy and I had really was an important lesson in life, and dying. Dying with somebody is a very important lesson in life. And I learned a great deal from that, that in one way or another has been part of my life since then. The first instinct, of course, is to abandon all else and devote yourself to this person. And she insisted that that not happen. And so through that period of time, it was-- I stayed in the governor's office and tried to understand what was going on.

MARK ZDECHLIK: Tell the story of when you made your way to the United States Senate.

DAVE DURENBERGER: Well, quickly, in the family, we made the decision to run for governor because Chuck Slocum, the party chairman, says we need candidates to run against Wendy Anderson. Well, I guess by then it was Rudy Perpich in 1977 because Rudy had a-- Rudy had appointed Wendy to the Senate to replace Walter Mondale. And so Chuck was recruiting candidates and I said, sure, I know the job of governor. I'd be glad to-- I was LeVander her chief of staff. I'm glad to run. That got me into that race. I was doing well.

And when Muriel Humphrey decided she didn't want to stay and run for re-election to the term to which she'd been appointed by Perpich, I was persuaded to run for the senate, even though I had absolutely no interest in it. And I found an interest in running rather than an interest in the Senate. And I ran. And I was running 40 points behind Don Fraser and God knows what behind Bob Short. Ended up winning 62% of the vote, going to Washington two days after the election.

And I didn't honestly know what I was doing or where I was, or what I was to be. I mean, I had no idea what a United States Senator was when I got elected and everything had developed since that day.

MARK ZDECHLIK: What was it like getting off the plane the first time as a United States Senator in Washington, DC?

DAVE DURENBERGER: I think the first reaction is a human reaction. You react to the television cameras, you react to famous names interviewing you. And then you're quickly brought down to Earth when somebody's question says, well, what do you think of SALT II? And I think of a condiment and salt, pepper, whatever it is, and all of a sudden you realize, wow, you've got a lot to learn.

I went directly because I got there on November 7 or 9, I think it was. And I had two months before the Congress came in. I went to moderate Democrats and moderate Republicans, as I considered them at that time, as opposed to the wingers on either side, which there are many more of today than there were then. But I went to them and just asked them, what's this all about? And I learned a great deal.

I guess the bottom line was what I learned was judgment is everything. I mean, it really is the most important thing that you have. And if you use your judgment and you spend a lot of time listening, you're probably going to be a better representative than people that come in with an ideological bent or something like that. So I just made the decision that I would never-- I was never going to vote by my polls or I'd never vote by my ratings or any of that sort of thing. I'd vote on my own judgment, that people elected me for my judgment. They didn't elect me because I was right and left, this, that, or the other thing.

And that always served me well. I was lucky enough, and I don't know that ever happened to anybody, I got on the Senate Finance Committee in my very first year. I mean, unbelievable. Just a quirk. The Senate Finance Committee's got all taxes, all social security, Medicare, Medicaid, all the health issues, all the trade, international trade issues. Incredible place.

People would lecture me on how Walter Mondale made it by being the champion of aging and he created the Aging Committee and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. That's what I should do. And I just-- I couldn't do that. You can't be on a committee like the Finance Committee and be just a Republican, just a right-winger, just an oil state guy, just a this, that, or the other thing. You got to be-- you have to be broad-based and representing Minnesota also.

MARK ZDECHLIK: One of the things that you were known for in your political career is being a moderate. Plenty of Democrats supported Dave Durenberger. What do you think of the partisanship right now?

DAVE DURENBERGER: Let me give you an example. I went back the Thursday after Bob Dole announced his-- that he was going to resign from the Senate to be a full-time candidate for president. I went back into the Senate and I went around talking to what I call the graybeards, but none of them had beards. It's the people that have been around a long time, the sergeant-at-arms, the clerks, the guy in the bathroom. I just chatted with workers in the place.

Everybody, the politicians were all excited for Bob. Those people were all totally depressed because they saw Dole as the last thing that really held the Senate together, that even though he's a partisan person, no doubt about it, he had a respect for the fact that you can't get anything done unless the institution can arrive at a consensus. So he always found a way, whether it was with Bob Byrd or George Mitchell or even now Tom Daschle, who's very political, he always found a way to arrive at some consensus.

The rest of the body, particularly the firebrands in the house and their former colleagues who are now in the senate, have taken a different view. And that is the only way you can make the Republican Party a majority party is to take over the seats. And what they've neglected to figure out is what is a Republican. So once you bring everybody in as a Republican, how are you going to arrive at a consensus? Today, the debates are still on the role of government, but they are isolated to a handful of issues, like the abortion issue is the most famous example.

MARK ZDECHLIK: Is there a watershed moment in Minnesota politics, Republican politics, that the party changed hands from maybe more of a moderate controlled to a conservative right-wing control?

DAVE DURENBERGER: Yes. And it really it started with two things synonymously, and they both happened in the Nixon decline period of the early '70s. One was the work that Don Fraser and others did to so-called reform the Democratic Party when, in effect, they took a party that was the party of the people, stood for farmers and laborers, and this broad class of people that had been put together by FDR, and they broke it up into caucuses, sub-caucuses, and this categoricalization that was coming from the government at the same time.

There is no Mark Zdechlik. There are pieces of Mark. I mean, number one, he's male. So we'll be in the male subcaucus and then maybe there'll be the Caucasian male sub-subcaucus. And so they took you apart and they fractionated their party and they fractionated their policies. At the same time, Roe versus Wade, the famous Supreme Court decision by a Minnesotan, Harry Blackmun, drove, in effect, the abortion issue.

Then the role of government changed with that decision. And a lot of Democrats, and I think particularly Catholic Democrats, were driven out of the Democratic Party by the fact that the Democrats would not respect their position on abortion and the government's role in abortion and drove them into the Republican Party. A few stayed behind so they could always attack the liberals in some visible way and hopefully get a Bob Short to run or something like that, but the rest of them went to the Republican Party and starting in the mid to late '70s began gradually to take over the Republican Party. And I just watched it happen.

PAULA SCHROEDER: David Durenberger, former Minnesota senator, talking with Mark Zdechlik. You're listening to our Voices of Minnesota interview, heard nearly every Monday as part of Midmorning. I'm Paula Schroeder. We'll be back with Dave Durenberger in just a moment.

Today's programming is sponsored in part by Jim and Julia Adams in celebration of their wedding anniversary. It's 19 minutes past 10 o'clock. This is Midmorning on Minnesota Public Radio. And it's going to be another beautiful day across the state of Minnesota with high temperatures reaching the 80s almost everywhere except the extreme southeastern part of the state where high temperatures are expected in the 70s.

Well, David Durenberger settled his 2 and 1/2 year old ethics case by pleading guilty last year to five misdemeanor charges that he falsified his congressional expense account. He billed the government for rent in a Minneapolis condominium that he owns.

DAVE DURENBERGER: I explain it quite readily and never know whether I get the right answers. It never satisfies a lot of journalists. But the reality is that you got a basic character going in and you don't tear down that character. It isn't like Dave Durenberger is not of high moral character and integrity. I mean, I believe in-- I believe in it and I keep saying to people, if you ever think I sold you out in my votes or anything like that, I never, ever did.

But on the personal side, I mean, how do you, quote, "behave?" There, the challenge comes to everybody who is suddenly elevated into a powerful position of how do you keep the balance between your person, your relationships, and all these folks that are going to lift you higher than you ever deserve being. OK. Once you get on the Finance Committee, once people ask your opinion on SALT II, once you get 500 invitations a day to go here or there and everywhere, everybody is then pressured into becoming what you read or hear people say they think you are. And that's the challenge to absolutely everybody inside the process.

When my friends were saying to me in the mid-'80s like, you've gone Washington or something like that, I think that's what they were saying to me. I thought I was the same person. And I say to people today, the farther you get away from Washington, the more you can-- the more you can see it. But you have to get out of it. I mean, you have to actually get out of-- not get out of Washington itself, but you get out of office in order to understand it. And I see that every week when I'm back in the Senate fellowship group. I mean, I can see the difference. I can see what I was then and I can see the difference between who I was and what I was much clearer when I was on the outside.

MARK ZDECHLIK: Define the difference a little bit.

DAVE DURENBERGER: Well, the difference is that like it happens to a whole lot of people. When time gets compressed, the first thing that goes is that the freebies, like trying to take 10 minutes first thing every morning to give just to your personal faith and enrich your personal faith. If you wake up late, what's the first thing to go? It's not the shower, it's not being 10 minutes late to your meeting. It's dropping off that 10 minutes.

Then it's family. Like in my case, I'm elected with a wife who's a second wife, a step mother to my four kids. Danny was 11 years old when we shipped off. And his oldest-- and the oldest, Charlie, was 15. And so the kids are in McLean and I'm in downtown Washington being a United States Senator and being pressed for my attention in 10 or 15 minute increments all of the time. And the balance wheel, just by the nature of the job, over time starts to get skewed. And that just-- that happens to practically everybody.

MARK ZDECHLIK: Some of your supporters say you were unfairly singled out, the things that you did were maybe par for the course in your position and in your environment. Do you feel like you were singled out?

DAVE DURENBERGER: People in that particular period of time were singled out. And was it par for the course and all that sort of thing? By comparison with a lot of other things, you could say yes. But the fact of the matter is, it happened. It was me. And the acts, in effect, were unethical. I mean, in ethics is not did you actually do a wrong, but was it perceived by people that what you were doing is wrong? And I could never make this distinction clear to anybody and I'm not going to try in this program to do it.

The critical thing about ethics, particularly in public life, because you can't relate to me-- I mean, not 4.3 million people never get to relate to me as a person. And if they think I'm doing something wrong, they never get a chance to ask me about it or to figure out what did I really do. And that's why ethics are so critically important. And that's why it was important in the period of time in which Jim Wright and Tony Coelho, and the Keating Five, and I, and D'Amato, and all these people were on the frying pan that the Senate and the House addressed the issue of ethics because we were doing things as senators and as congressmen that we understood didn't affect our integrity or something like that.

For example, my case. I mean, if in fact you are doing Senate business in Minnesota and you're living in your own condominium in downtown Minneapolis, the public perception is that if it's your own place, you shouldn't be reimbursed. The Senate perception is, look, you're only there. If it was a personal, you'd have a home someplace. But I sold my home. I only have a place in Minneapolis because I've got to do Senate business back in Minneapolis.

So that difference, that distinction is what gets people repeatedly into trouble, and I would say appropriately into trouble, because if people think you're making money off the job, they ought to toss you on your ear because that isn't why they elected you. That was just an important period, I think, in which some of us, yes, got singled out, but I think it was for the good of the country.

MARK ZDECHLIK: You were talking earlier about having been pulled over for speeding as a young man in Stearns County and wondering what your dad might think and your neighbors might think, and other people who read the paper. How difficult was this to go through when you left the Senate and--

DAVE DURENBERGER: Well, Mark, you've just touched on the most difficult part of this whole process because through this whole time, I could always be a good Senator and I was a great-- I did a great job on clean air, the Americans with Disabilities Act, a whole bunch of very civil Rights Act that year, a whole bunch of really important things in that period of time. So it didn't affect my ability as a Senator representing the people in Minnesota.

But the emotional drain from having mother, father, brother, sister, children, family, relatives, anybody with a name like Durenberger being in the front pages of the paper every single day, I mean, that almost killed me. So it wasn't-- if I can articulate this correctly, it wasn't so much what I was going through as it was the impact on people who had absolutely no control over me or what I was going through except in a relational sense.

And I still carry that. I mean, I still-- I mean, I don't think I will ever be able to get rid of it because I think about my kids all the time and I think about the epitaph. I think about the obituary that will start out by saying, denounced senator, or whatever it is, pleaded guilty to misdemeanors or something like that. It's going to be right in the lead. And all of the great stuff that I believe I've contributed over time, not going to be in the lead.

Now my kids keep telling me that's baloney. I mean, they've lived through it with me and they say, that's not true. But I'm just telling you, I can't help the way I feel. And the most difficult part of that part of my life is that they should share in the good because they share it in enough of the other rough stuff. I mean, they had to do with less of a father and things like that. They ought to be able to share in the long run after I'm out of office in all the good that I accomplished with the help of incredible people that I represented in Minnesota.

I mean, it was just-- they made me, these folks in Minnesota. I mean, they made me what I could do. And I wish that I didn't feel that way because my kids say, don't. Don't. I mean, we love you and nobody's pounding on you. I mean-- but I can't get over that.

MARK ZDECHLIK: What's it like for you to walk through the airport in Minneapolis, Saint Paul or walk down the street? People, I'm sure, recognize you. Do you feel like you can walk around Minnesota with your head held high?

DAVE DURENBERGER: The head held high thing was a problem mainly in 1990, the first part of 1990 when there was-- when I couldn't go anywhere without seeing my name in the front pages of the paper and on this radio and God knows what else. I mean, that's when I'd loved to have crawled in a hole period of my life or something like that. But since then, it's not a-- that's not a problem.

And today, I mean, the reality is that I'm a free man, so to speak, and I can enjoy relationships and I can enjoy strangers that I meet on an airplane or something like that or somebody who stops me and says, didn't you used to be somebody, that sort of thing that you get all the time.

MARK ZDECHLIK: I'm told by some people up at the Capitol that you're known to once in a while walk out on the floor. You mentioned you were out talking to people about Senator Dole's resignation. Do you think you might ever get back into politics?

DAVE DURENBERGER: Never. I love being out of it. And I know politics are an important part of a lot of people's lives, but public policy is more important. We aren't doing public policy today. We aren't doing it. It just isn't getting done. There hasn't been a good health policy bill passed at the national level since 1989 and no decent legislation-- no legislation of any kind affecting health policy, for example, since 1990.

I don't think I'm going to change anything by going to a Republican convention or even by getting back in Congress. I want to write a textbook on health policy because there isn't one. And so everybody's teaching off their experiences in the latest clippings. I want to get to the heart of what is public policy and how is it, and what is it, what has it been, what should it be, how is it made, and so forth, which I try to teach at St. Thomas to doctors and nurses, and health professionals. But I want to get to a broader audience with that. And that's where I'm headed.

MARK ZDECHLIK: You were talking earlier about Congress right now being not a place where policy is debated. The propensity of the media to shine the public light on the personal lives of people in politics, what kind of effect is this having on politicians?

DAVE DURENBERGER: Well, I think-- I mean, first, I didn't believe this in the beginning, but I sure do now. I don't think there's anything wrong with shining the light on the whole person. I may not like it because of the impact it has on my kids or my family, or my marriage, or God knows what, but should it be put in perspective? Yes.

At the same time, let me tell you a story that Teddy Kennedy told me once. He said, when my brothers and I came to Washington, DC, in the early '60s, we were covered by reporters that are older than we. And they could put in perspective our professional charge and our personal charge, and they would put that in perspective. And of course, you never read stories in those days about John F. Kennedy or anybody else in their personal lives.

Today, he said, you're covered by younger reporters and most of them, the way they cover you in Washington, DC, at least, are on their way up to something great. They want to be Pulitzer prize, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and they're going to get there on you. And that is true. I mean, that just is a fact. And you journalists can't deny that. I mean, because I've heard it from enough people to know. I mean, that is true. But does that mean that it's wrong to be talking about personal life? Of course not.

MARK ZDECHLIK: What do you think the mainstream of the body politic in this country is right now? Who is Bill Clinton looking for? Who is Bob Dole looking for?

DAVE DURENBERGER: Sure, the mainstream is the same place it was in '78 when I got elected, changing the role of government. And that's what the public keeps trying to say to these people. We're not against government. We're not against national government. We just don't think we're getting our money's worth. And they said that in 1978. They said it in 1977 in Proposition 13 in California.

I mean, I don't know how long it takes us in politics and public service to get the message. The message is it costs too much and produces too little. So change the role of government. Don't abandon government, change its role. Don't just devolve everything to states. That doesn't solve the-- that doesn't solve the problem. Change the role, the purpose of the national government on the basis of everything you learned about what its purpose is and let everything else to some other level of government or to a marketplace.

MARK ZDECHLIK: Any other thoughts from Dave Durenberger right now?

DAVE DURENBERGER: I'm a very happy man and I love Minnesota more than I ever did before, and I love public service more than I ever did before. I'm practicing it in a different variety of ways. Everybody says, if you're wise enough to understand yourself and understand the things that you've been through, the good and the bad, then the best is still ahead. And even though I am past 60 and should be thinking about retirement, I am not. I really believe the best is still ahead for me. I don't know what it is, where it is, how it's going to come, but it's there.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Former Minnesota Senator David Durenberger talking with Minnesota Public Radio's Mark Zdechlik. Our Voices of Minnesota interview series is produced by Dan Olson.

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We're looking for volunteers to help with Minnesota Public Radio's upcoming membership drive. If you have a couple of hours to spare during the week of June 22 through the 28, call us at 612-290-1441. Your help is needed to answer phones at the Minnesota Public Radio headquarters in downtown Saint Paul. To volunteer to help with Minnesota Public Radio's membership drive, just give us a call at 612-2990-1441.

Well, talk about a beautiful day. It is 72 degrees in Saint Cloud, 70 in Hibbing, 75 in International Falls. It's 73 in Mankato, 76 degrees in Sioux Falls, 74 in Fargo. Look at this, though, light rain and 60 degrees in Rochester, just waiting for that sunshine and warm temperatures there. In the Twin Cities, 76 degrees under sunny skies and we're heading for highs in the 80s today.

[THE HARRY SIMEONE SONGSTERS, "IT'S A BEAUTIFUL DAY FOR A BALL GAME"] It's a beautiful day for a ball game

For a ball game today

The fans are out to get a ticket or two from Walla Walla

Washington to Kalamazoo

It's a

Well, it was a terrifically beautiful weekend for baseball. Too bad the Twins have to play indoors, but at least they won this weekend, some of their games anyway. Actually, they've won 11 of their last 15 games after splitting a four-game weekend series with the Oakland A's. And last night, Scott Stahoviak homered and Frank Rodriguez pitched a complete game in Minnesota's 5 to 3 win. Robin Gehl is here with us now. She is Midmorning's baseball commentator.

Stahoviak, now, I have to say, I don't follow baseball nearly as closely as you do, Robin, being the unabashed Twins fan that you are, but that's a new name to me, Stahoviak.

ROBIN GEHL: Boy, there's a lot of new names on the Twins this season, and some of these folks are coming around. Stahoviak has been up with the twins for a couple of years, so it's kind of exciting to see things are starting to gel a little bit. Likewise with Frank Rodriguez, he's been having some ups and downs all spring. He's put together a couple of good performances as of late. So Twins are coming around. It's hard to believe they're at 500 ball, which is fabulous for a team like the Twins. They've won 30 and they've lost 30. They're kind of in the middle of the pack in Major League Baseball.

PAULA SCHROEDER: And a lot of people didn't expect them to be there with the loss of Kirby Puckett this year.

ROBIN GEHL: It's just mind-boggling. The Twins have usually fared really well when it comes to injuries. Usually everybody's healthy. The Twins don't have problems like some teams do with so many people on the disabled list and unable to play. Kirby Puckett has been out the entire season. Their other star, Ricky Aguilera, has only had one start on the Major League lineup. He's finally going to make an appearance now on Tuesday.

Dave Stevens, the closer who took Rick Aguilera's spot, has been on the disabled list. There was a time last month when the top three players, Puckett and Agee, and Knoblauch, who was out with a hand injury, the top three players were out, and that was 60% of the Twins' payroll sitting on the bench. So it's mind-boggling to think how well the Twins are playing. And some other key individuals have stepped up and are really doing well.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Like who? How's Marty Cordova doing?

ROBIN GEHL: Last year's Rookie of the Year. Good old Marty Cordova. He is quite the professional. He's batting 320, which is fabulous. He's got 38 RBIs for the Twins. He's kind of low key. He doesn't take compliments well. I asked him, what's the key to his consistency?

MARTY CORDOVA: I don't really have any key. I just go out there and try and get a hit every game. That's it. I play hard and just try to do my best. That's it.

ROBIN GEHL: Does sometimes it bother you that there's almost more attention on the players who aren't playing than those of you who aren't playing and doing well? I'm thinking of Puckett and Agee.

MARTY CORDOVA: I really don't care who the attention is on, to tell you the truth. I come out here and play and I try and have fun and I want to win. I don't care if Puckett's attention. I don't care if the reporters get the attention. It doesn't matter to me. I really don't care about attention.

ROBIN GEHL: You're the veteran of the outfield now. How are all your cast and crew in the outfield performing, do you think? Kelly and some of the others.

MARTY CORDOVA: I think everybody is doing a good job on the team from the outfield to infield pitching. Everybody's trying their best and that's all you can ask. And we've had some rough games and we've had some good games, and hopefully we can keep having good games.

PAULA SCHROEDER: What's so amazing to me, Robin, about these baseball players who talk like that, oh, I don't really care. I don't need a lot of attention. And we play well and-- this is like life or death to most of them, really.

ROBIN GEHL: Exactly. It's their whole career. It's funny, Marty was kind of in a bad mood that day. I caught him, but-- he's a great player and a great addition for the team, and it's amazing. He's just in his second year and it's as good as his first year for him, his Rookie of the Year season.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Well, you picked him last year early. Yeah. The Twins really made some history this past weekend, the first Major League team to play a doubleheader in three years.

ROBIN GEHL: Yeah, they're a rarity now. Usually it's kind of a market-driven thing. I think most owners don't want to give up two games for the price of one, so they usually don't schedule them. Usually they end up being a lot of doubleheaders just because the make up games for rain delays and whatnot. But they're a rarity. It's kind of fun. As you said, it was kind of rough on a nice sunny day to be in the dome for that many hours of baseball, but fans came and went and it was a fun baseball experience.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Well, they split those two games.

ROBIN GEHL: Right.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Yeah. And there was some really good pitching in the first game. Not so great in the second.

ROBIN GEHL: Rich Robertson, he did a fabulous job in the first game. It's the three R's or the three starting pitchers now: Robertson, Radke, and Rodriguez. And they've been doing OK the last couple of weeks.

PAULA SCHROEDER: But as you mentioned earlier, Aguilera is going to be on the mound tomorrow night and--

ROBIN GEHL: Right, exactly. So we'll see if he's ready to come back. It's been rough to have him out for the whole season, but we'll see. He's been down in Florida doing some rehabilitation, but we'll have to see. Boy, it's been the hitters who've been carrying it, though.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Absolutely. I was going to say, let's stop talking about the pitching because it's kind of a soft spot. But the hitters, Chuck Knoblauch, unbelievable.

ROBIN GEHL: Hits fabulous. He's really kind of being watched by all of the American League. He's like second to Roberto Alomar in every category. Alomar of Baltimore's batting like 400, but Knoblauch, wow, he's fabulous. He's batting 369. And he's just on fire right now. As I said, he had a little bit of a wrist injury. He was out for a few games. But, boy, he's coming on strong. I ask him how he's feeling.

CHUCK KNOBLAUCH: I'm feeling pretty good. And the hardest thing is trying to stay with your program and stay within yourself and not go up there just swinging and expecting to get a hit and really keep your concentration and focus and stay with your game plan. And my game plan is really work the pitcher and get deep into the count and the more strikes that are on me, the better hitter I get. So I got to really fight myself from going up there and swinging at the first pitch. But there's nothing better than winning. And hopefully, we can continue it and have a very successful homestand.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Well, and when you talk about hitting, too, of course, Chuck Knoblauch doing very, very well. But Paul Molitor, boy, everyone was so excited and he was too to come home to St. Paul play what's probably going to be his last segment of his baseball career here at home.

ROBIN GEHL: Definitely. Boy, exciting to see him play. I had doubts. I thought he might be a bust and he wouldn't have a fabulous year. But, boy, he's delivering in spades, especially with Puckett out. He's really the leader of the team. He's batting 340. He's got 42 RBI. He leads the team. He's on the leaderboard in the American League. I ask him, how is he doing this first few months of the season?

PAUL MOLITOR: Well, I definitely have enjoyed myself and the transition, I think, has been real positive for myself and my family. And a big part of that has been the fact that I've adjusted well to this team and particularly I've enjoyed playing for TK and watching guys like Nobby play every day has been real enjoyable. And I guess personally, having been healthy to this point and having a chance to play in the lineup every day and getting off to a much better start than last year, those things are all contributing to making this a positive experience so far.

ROBIN GEHL: In your experience, what strategy and what should a team like the Twins be doing when some of its key people, like Puckett and Agee are out of the lineup?

PAUL MOLITOR: Well, we all know that naturally with those players, we'd be a better team. But I think that you learn that once you take the field, no one's going to feel sorry for you, much less the opponent. So you have to pretty much, when you go out there, put that aside. We'd love to get those guys back. And hopefully with the experience some of the other guys are getting in their absence, we'll be a deeper team once they do return.

But in the interim, we just go out there and when Tom puts the lineup up, those guys go out there and do what they can to help us win. I think coming off last year's season, the Twins' direction is to try to gradually get back into a competitive situation. And I'm not sure what the limits of this club will be if we get everybody healthy. But overall, I think we're pretty pleased with the progress and hope it continues as the season unfolds.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Well, so do we all hope that the success continues. The Twins are really in the midst of a long homestand, 13 games in a row at home.

ROBIN GEHL: It's amazing. They have a whole other week now. The Seattle Mariners are coming to town and I think the Tigers are coming to town. So been a lot of good baseball. And it's fun to see some of these stars, these handful of stars, Cordova, Knoblauch, and Molitor, and some of these new people finally develop. A lot of them came up probably sooner than they were-- than they should have, but some of them are developing and they're doing a fabulous job, and it's fun to see.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Of course, every baseball team wants to be in a good position when they get to the All-Star break. Got another three weeks or so before that happens. How did the Twins stack up to other teams?

ROBIN GEHL: As far as All-Star voting, naturally Puckett was always the one who got the votes for the All-Star team. Knoblauch and Molitor will probably stand a chance. Every team gets to have at least one player. They probably won't get voted on the team, but the coaches do pick. So it'll probably either be Knoblauch or Molitor.

The Twins are kind of in the middle of the pack in other races. The couple best teams in the American League happen to be in our division. Cleveland and the Chicago White Sox are both in our division and they're coming on strong. Chicago is doing well. Texas is doing well. So kind of in the middle of the pack, but hopefully we'll see some better baseball in the next few months.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Well, Robin, once again, you've whetted our appetite for going out to see the Twins. But, you know, of course, they've got big competition with the St. Paul Saints.

ROBIN GEHL: It's really amazing talking to some people at the Twins' games. The reporters are just following the Saints, almost more so than they are the Twins because of the couple Major League stars who are with the Saints now, Jack Morris and Darryl Strawberry.

I understand every little game that the Saints are playing in all the small towns in the upper Midwest, they're just hordes of New York reporters and movie cameras following Darryl Strawberry. Darryl Strawberry used to be a mad in a Yankee, and they're following his progress to see how he's doing. So that makes some excitement for those games, too.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Right. Well, thanks a lot again for coming in, Robin.

ROBIN GEHL: Thanks, Paula.

16 minutes now before 11 o'clock And Darryl Strawberry's comeback is in fine form. Yesterday, the former Major Leaguer went 3 for 4 with two RBIs as the St. Paul Saints beat visiting Winnipeg 8 to 3. And Strawberry's performance raised his average to 379. The Saints also beat Winnipeg 7 to 6 on Saturday night.

And this summer, the Saints are the subject of a 22-part series on the FX cable network. The series producer, Anthony Horne, says he did extensive research before deciding to focus his efforts on the Saints. Horne, who hails from New York city, started shooting baseball, Minnesota last month, and he's in our studios this morning. Hi, Anthony.

ANTHONY HORNE: Good morning, Paula.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Thanks a lot for coming in. Why the Saints? And I think that any of us who live here in the Twin Cities in particular know the answer to that question. But to an outsider, what was it about the Saints that attracted you as a producer of a television program?

ANTHONY HORNE: Well, we were looking for a minor league team. And certainly, there are a lot out there, but one of the big things with the Saints and with the Northern League that they play in is that they're unaffiliated with any of the Major League teams. And that gives you a lot of freedom and allows you to get access where you wouldn't, let's say, at a Norfolk or a Tidewater, or one of those teams.

The other thing about the Saints is obviously if you've been to a game, you can see that there's plenty of other entertainment.

PAULA SCHROEDER: There's lots going on.

ANTHONY HORNE: Yeah, it's just a great backdrop for baseball and it's even bigger for us because the whole community of the team that extends to the city of St. Paul, it's a great, fertile location for us.

PAULA SCHROEDER: What is this show going to be? 22 parts. Is this like a sitcom or what?

ANTHONY HORNE: Sure, I think, on minor league baseball. It's going to be a series of-- well, using the season, the 1996 season as the backdrop, we're going to explore all facets of the team. I mean, whether it's players or the bartender at Gabe's down the street or whatever. I mean, we really don't know because it is, in fact, a documentary so it's sort of unfolding before us. So we don't know what show 20 is going to be or what show 15 is going to be. It's just going to happen. I mean, a lot of it's going to be about the players and their lives and their-- excuse me, and their careers, but it's really--

PAULA SCHROEDER: Kind of like a slap shot for baseball.

ANTHONY HORNE: Yeah. There's a show on MTV called Real World. It's really-- the only thing that's, I guess, could be said to be like it because it is documentary. It's real and it's episodic, meaning it's a weekly series. So that's about the only thing that's like it. But those people on that show were cast. And believe it or not, we did not know Darryl Strawberry was going to be on this team or that Jack Morris was going to be on this team when we came here.

We've been following the Saints since '93, the first season. So this has been going on for a while. It took a long time to get off the ground and we just sort of got lucky that this season looks like it's going to be a good one to follow them.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Right. Has that changed the dynamic of the team much having those two Major Leaguers there?

ANTHONY HORNE: I would imagine it has. Not being around the teams in the past, it's hard to say. But yes, you can tell that the players-- I mean, there's a certain amount of idolization and there's a certain amount of-- well, there's a lot of teaching going on from those guys, which is a great thing and a good part of our story. They've imparted a lot of knowledge and humor to these guys, and it's great. It's great to see. It's great to-- it's great to follow them.

PAULA SCHROEDER: I know that you've been following these guys around with all of your cameras and even the fans have been getting a little testy sometimes saying, get those cameras out of the way. We're trying to see the game. How have the players responded to you?

ANTHONY HORNE: Well, like any documentary situation, it takes a while for them to accept and to feel like we're part of the scenery in the locker room or wherever we may be with them. So it's always going to have its ups and downs, but generally it's been great. They're really a nice group of people. And we've gotten to tell part of their stories, which is really exciting.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Do you think-- do any of them play to the camera?

ANTHONY HORNE: I think no. Obviously, they are performers, so they're pretty used to having cameras around in most cases. We can sense it sometimes and we'll know it and we will back away and just sort of let them know that our disinterest means that we feel that they're playing a little bit to it and we'll shut down and move away. But yeah.

PAULA SCHROEDER: I have to say, as a home-grown Midwesterner, there's a certain amount of distrust, I think, of New Yorkers coming into the Midwest and making us all look like Hicks or something. Is this going to be a cute series about, oh, isn't it sweet what these small town baseball players are doing going around to these little towns and giving folks some entertainment?

ANTHONY HORNE: Well, I don't think-- I think it just happens that we're in Minnesota. It's really about baseball. It's about Minor League Baseball. And Mike Veeck has put together quite an incredible atmosphere for a team. And if that team was in Texas, we'd be-- I would guess we'd be in Texas. If the Northern League was the Southern League or the Southwestern League, we'd be down there because there's really something special about what he's brought here. And that's really what we're trying to capture.

Now in the process, if we bump into along our travels, some interesting Minnesotan folks, we're not looking to make Fargo here the real-life Fargo, but certainly a character and a story, whether it's in Texas or Minnesota, is really what we're after. And we're-- I mean, a part of what we're going to end up with, I think, is it's going to be a big mix of things. We don't really know exactly what it's going to be, as I've said.

But the Charles Kuralt thing about getting out on the road and seeing some of the characters around this part of the country is what people have responded to when we've shown them the test tape that we made last year. So I think, to answer your question, no, it's not-- we're not here to savage the Minnesota way, but we're really just so happy to be here because it's a great place to do this show. It's just very-- it's a great backdrop for this baseball season.

PAULA SCHROEDER: You get to tell your friends you're going to Thunder Bay.

ANTHONY HORNE: I've been to Thunder bay, Paula.

PAULA SCHROEDER: In Fargo.

ANTHONY HORNE: Something I've always wanted to do.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Yeah. When are people going to be able to see this, and where are we going to be able to find it?

ANTHONY HORNE: Well, it's on the FX network, which is Fox's cable network. If you're in Duluth, you-- for instance, 90% of the cable homes in Duluth have FX. St. Paul, it's not the same story. It's on St. Paul cable. In the Twin Cities, that's one of the few places you'll find it. I think in parts of Northern Dakota County, you can-- has FX.

FX will have next spring Major League Baseball. They have that contract coming up. So I would expect right now they're in 28 million American homes. And by next spring, that'll be sizably increased as the cable operators pick up Major League Baseball. They have some college basketball this fall. So they're getting more into sports, hence their interest in this show. And we brought it to them about a year ago.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Is it on now?

ANTHONY HORNE: No, it's not. No.

PAULA SCHROEDER: OK.

ANTHONY HORNE: Show. Sorry. The show is on-- it's slated to premiere, I think, August 18 is the first show. So we're busily cutting the first show right now and it should be on the air by August.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Boy, we're all going to have to go to Dakota County or--

ANTHONY HORNE: Yeah, huddle up in Dakota County. Yeah.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Yeah.

ANTHONY HORNE: Going to be for Duluth, of course.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Sure. That sounds like a lot of fun, actually going to Duluth in August. Well, I just wanted to ask you one more thing. FX, I think Fox is known for producing programs like Cops and America's Most Wanted, those reality-based programs. Is this the kind of program this will be?

ANTHONY HORNE: Well, no. Not at all. I think this show is going to be-- it really-- if you look at some of the program on FX, if you're familiar with it, they're a very general audience that they're going for. Their most popular show is a collectibles show where they collect antiques. And it's very much a homespun American kind of station and that's the image that they're going after. And in terms of our show specifically, because we have to do 22 episodes, which is just pretty--

PAULA SCHROEDER: That's a lot.

ANTHONY HORNE: It's a lot. We're going to have to-- it's going to be a loose show. And that's what I like, is that it will breathe, unlike a lot of other things that you see on TV. It won't be slash and MTV style.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Real highly produced.

ANTHONY HORNE: Yeah, it will not be highly produced. Exactly. It's going to be very much more like a documentary and less like an MTV show, I hope. I mean, we don't-- again, we don't really know. It's just sort of happening and we're kind of inventing it as we go, which is kind of the fun and the challenge of it.

PAULA SCHROEDER: I can't wait to see it. Anthony Horne, thanks a lot for coming in today and telling us about baseball Minnesota.

[THE HARRY SIMEONE SONGSTERS, "IT'S A BEAUTIFUL DAY FOR A BALL GAME"] It's a beautiful day for the ladies

So throw all your dishes away

We're going to cheer and boo and raise a hullabaloo

At the ball game today

At the ball game, the wonderful ball game today

Wow.

GARY EICHTEN: There is literally a world of information available on the internet. Accessing that information, however, would be next to impossible without companies like Netscape.

Hi. This is Gary Eichten, inviting you to join us for Midday on Minnesota Public Radio. We'll hear from the president of Netscape, Jim Barksdale, on what the future holds for the internet. Hope you can join us. Netscape president Jim Barksdale speaking at the National Press Club. Midday begins each weekday morning at 11:00 on Minnesota Public Radio, KNOW-FM 91.1 in the Twin Cities.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Coming up at 11 o'clock, of course, all the latest news and weather around our region and across the world as well. There's been a 13-year-old girl arrested in connection with one of the fires of Black churches in the South. We'll find out more about that and much more coming up on Midday. First, here's Garrison Keillor in the Writer's Almanac.

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GARRISON KEILLOR: And here is the Writer's Almanac for Monday, the 10th of June, 1996. It was in May of 1692, in the town of Salem, Massachusetts. A group of young girls under the influence of voodoo tales told to them by a West Indian slave claimed they were possessed by the devil and began to accuse various women and then later men of Salem of witchcraft.

It was a great public hysteria over the threat of witchcraft. There were a series of trials held in Salem, and it was on this day in 1692, the first of the convicted witches was hanged. In the end, 19 were. 150 people in all were imprisoned. And then in that same year, by the fall, the public's mood changed and they were widely condemned by the people of Massachusetts. And the court was dissolved and all remaining prisoners were released.

It's the birthday of Frances Gumm, born in Grand Rapids, Minnesota, in 1922, who later became Judy Garland. The journalist Nat Hentoff was born in Boston on this day in 1925. The Illustrator and author Maurice Sendak, born in New York City in 1928, who wrote Where The Wild Things Are and many other books.

Here's a poem by Henry Beard from his collection of parodies, Poetry for Cats. This a parody of John Donne's death, be not proud, entitled Vet, Be Not Proud. Vet be not proud, though thou canst make cats die. Thou livest but one life, while we live nine. And if our lives were half as bleak as thine, we would not seek from thy cold grasp to fly.

We do not slave our daily bread to buy, our eyes are blind to gold and silver shine. We owe no debt, we pay no tax or fine. We tremble not when creditors draw nigh. The sickest animal that thou dost treat is weller than a man. In peace we dwell and not guilt or sin, and fear not hell. Poor vet, we live in heaven at thy feet, but do not think that any cat will weep when thee a higher vet doth put to sleep.

Vet, Be Not Proud from Henry Beard's Poetry for Cats, published by Villard books and used here by permission.

GARY EICHTEN: That's the Writer's Almanac for Monday, June 10th, made possible by Cowles Enthusiast Media, publishers of Historic Traveler and other magazines. Be well, do good work, and keep in touch.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Well, we hope your cat enjoyed that poetry. We have something for everyone here on Public Radio. I'm Paula Schroeder. Thanks a lot for joining us today. And we'll be back tomorrow, as always, at nine o'clock with Midmorning.

Stay tuned. Midday is coming up next. National Press Club speech about the future of the internet by Netscape founder Jim Barksdale. That's coming up over the noon hour today. It's going to be another beautiful day. Hope you can get out and enjoy it. High temperatures getting up into the 80s all across the state of Minnesota. It looks pretty much that same way all for the rest of the week. Have a nice one.

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JOHN RABE: I'm John Rabe. Just like picking the kids up from school or sitting in your favorite easy chair and taking your shoes off, make all things considered part of your afternoon ritual. Well, you could leave your shoes on, all things considered. Weekdays at 3:00 on Minnesota Public Radio.

PAULA SCHROEDER: You're listening to Minnesota Public Radio. It's 76 degrees at KNOW-FM, 91.1, Minneapolis, Saint Paul. Twin Cities weather for today calls for increasing cloudiness in Eastern and Southern parts of the Twin Cities, mostly sunny elsewhere with a high from 80 to 85 degrees. Sunny tomorrow, the high in the mid to upper 80s.

PERRY FINELLI: Good morning. It's 11 o'clock. This is Midday on Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Perry Finelli in today for Gary Eichten. In the news today, a 13-year-old white girl has been arrested for setting the fire that destroyed a Black church in Charlotte, North Carolina. Police say the fire has no connection with the string of 30 other blazes at Black churches in the South over the past 18 months. Meanwhile, three white men have become suspects in a fire in Greenville, Texas, over the weekend. A neighborhood meeting will be.