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CHRIS ROBERTS: Good morning. It's 4 minutes past 10 o'clock from the Minnesota Public Radio newsroom. I'm Chris Roberts. A proposal to hold a Twin stadium referendum by mail in ballot has surfaced at the State Capitol. Senate Minority Leader Dean Johnson says the idea for a December referendum by mail came up late last week in private discussions between lawmakers and Twins officials.

DEAN JOHNSON: I think for the Twins, it would be a better expenditure of their dollars for the campaign, so they would not be competing with legislative, congressional, and presidential races, and constitutional amendments. It would just be zeroed in on that one issue.

CHRIS ROBERTS: Johnson says the Twins do not support holding the stadium referendum by mail. Legislative committees will discuss the referendum later this week. The assault trial of Minnesota Vikings quarterback Warren Moon is continuing today in Richmond, Texas.

Moon's wife, Felicia, is expected to take the stand today for cross-examination. Moon is charged with assaulting his wife last summer at the couple's home. Mrs. Moon testified last week that her husband grabbed and choked her during a fight over credit cards and money, but she insists he didn't mean to hurt her.

The state forecast for today, a chance of light snow or light freezing rain in Duluth. Otherwise, mostly cloudy and warmer throughout the rest of the region. Highs from the mid 20s in Duluth to the lower 40s in the Pipestone area. For the Twin cities, mostly cloudy and warmer today. Highs in the upper 30s to around 40 degrees.

Tonight, partly to mostly cloudy skies during the evening. Areas of dense fog along with patchy and freezing drizzle later on. Lows in the low 30s. Cloudy and hazy on Tuesday. Periods of rain likely highs from 40 to 45 degrees. In the Twin Cities right now, cloudy and 28. That's news. I'm Chris Roberts.

PAULA SCHROEDER: It's 6 minutes past 10 o'clock. This is Midmorning on the FM News Station. I'm Paula Schroeder. Coming up in about half an hour, we'll be talking about presidents and how they're viewed throughout history on this President's Day. But first, an inspiring story.

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Gospel music and helping young people in trouble define a big part of Thelma Buckner's life. Today on Voices of Minnesota, we hear Thelma Buckner talk about her music and her family. Every Monday as part of Midmorning, we bring you an interview with a Minnesota resident who has an interesting and inspiring life story. 63-year-old

Thelma Buckner lives in Saint Paul. She's raised her own family, which includes three sets of twins. She's also a foster parent and operates an emergency shelter for children. Thelma Buckner talked recently with Minnesota Public Radio's Dan Olson.

DAN OLSON: I think one of my first recollections of Thelma Buckner is you standing on a stage probably, I don't know, 20 years ago, and I think you had a couple of little twins, couple of little kids. And I think the group was called Thelma Buckner and the Minnesota Gospel Twins. Is that right?

THELMA BUCKNER: You got that right. Yes.

DAN OLSON: What was that all about?

THELMA BUCKNER: Well, I'm the mother of three sets of twins along with two kids that didn't have twin mate. And when they first started-- well, as they were crying in the crib, I thought they were harmonizing. And I said, as soon as you little fellas learn to talk, I'm going to teach you how to sing, not knowing they would really be singers. But it turned out that I taught them how to sing.

DAN OLSON: Your children. And you should make clear for those of us who are a little unclear, your children are now adults, obviously, and have gone on to be musicians.

THELMA BUCKNER: Well, yes, all of them in some form or fashion. My oldest son is a professional drummer, and the next son is the founder of the Minneapolis Gospel Sounds. And I have a daughter who is a member of the Sounds of Blackness and a very good member because I trained her Well.

And then my youngest son is Arthur. He's a fireman in Minneapolis, but he's also the singing fireman. And his twin is one of our best song leaders in our church, and she does a lot of solo work. All of them sing at some time or another.

DAN OLSON: Music came to the Buckner family early. As I think I've heard you say before, you were musical from a very early age because at least one of your parents was musical.

THELMA BUCKNER: Well, it sounds funny, but my mom used to beat the drums in church, the bass drum, and she sang quite well. My dad was a preacher, and he had a very good voice. So between the two parents and their musical abilities, we just had to be singers or something.

DAN OLSON: But this was a very religious background, religion, gospel.

THELMA BUCKNER: Yes, of course. My dad being a preacher. And he believed every word the Bible said just like it said it. He didn't try to take away from it or add to it. We just had to do what the Bible said.

DAN OLSON: Then you, of course, would be growing up quite naturally in a house filled with gospel music, church music, go to church maybe at least once a week, maybe twice a week.

THELMA BUCKNER: Once a week? We went seven days a week, man. Every night my dad thought a little church was needed for the soul and the body and mind. So every night we'd go for prayer. We had a regular service once a week. It was on Friday night.

But every night you went out for one hour of prayer. And that was good. We had to do that before bedtime. So his family and then consequently all the other families in the community would go to church and pray that one hour and then back on Sunday morning.

DAN OLSON: You must have been a very easygoing kid to put up with this. I mean, think about it, for any kid that's a lot of time in church.

THELMA BUCKNER: Well, if you knew my parents, whether you were easygoing or not, you had to go to church. And then it got to a place where the parents took us to church until church became a part of us. And when something becomes a part of you, then you go willingly, freely. You want to go.

And as a matter of fact, if I stayed home, I missed church. I was lonely for it. And all my life since we grew up that way it's just been church. And right now I find myself in church at least three or four times a week. I never get too busy to find the church.

DAN OLSON: Where was this happening? Did you grow up in Mississippi?

THELMA BUCKNER: Mississippi in what we call the Delta of Mississippi. That's about 100 miles out of Memphis, Tennessee. And the my birthplace was [? Racetrack, ?] Mississippi. Now, Racetrack is about 3 miles out of Greenwood, Mississippi. And that farm community, Racetrack, was called Racetrack because it used to be a horse race track. And they changed it from the horse race track to just a farm community.

DAN OLSON: When you were growing up, though, obviously, you were going to become a teenager. Even though you were a preacher's kid, you must have been getting interested in other kinds of music. What was going on there?

THELMA BUCKNER: No, no, no, no, no. In our house, it was the news and gospel. We had one radio in the house, and mama controlled the knobs.

DAN OLSON: Let me guess. I think I heard you say the call letters were WDIA, but your parents knew it as another station. Your mother knew it as another station.

THELMA BUCKNER: No, no, it wasn't the other station. It was WDIA, but the DJ was called Bless my Bone. And instead of saying, let me go turn to WDIA radio, she say, let me go turn Bless my Bone on because he was that comical gospel DJ. So we all called WDIA Bless my Bone station.

DAN OLSON: And this was a Black-owned radio station.

THELMA BUCKNER: Right. I think as a matter of fact, I think it was the first Black-owned radio station in the nation out of Memphis. And I think it's still there going strong.

DAN OLSON: What brought you out of Mississippi? What happened to you then after you left home?

THELMA BUCKNER: Well, after graduating from high school and getting married-- and my husband was then living in Ohio. His mom had died, and he had moved to Ohio to live with some other relatives. And then he came back to visit, and we met again and started dating by mail. By mail-- we courted only by mail.

And then he came down for a weekend and brought me an engagement ring. And then two months later, he came back, and we got married, and I moved to Ohio. Well, he was a minister also. Mh, ain't that nice? And then he had an opportunity. Somebody offered him a church in Kansas. And I said, well, I want to go to Minnesota because I got family there.

And we came by Minnesota on our way to Kansas, and we never got to Kansas. We weren't as lucky as Dorothy with the Wizard of Oz. So I'm still in Minnesota. And I liked it because of the bad weather, the cold weather. I love all the snow, and I love all the cold. When I was younger, whenever the weather report came in and said it's 40 below wind chill, I had to get out in it. Whether I needed to or not, I wanted to see what it felt like. So I was attracted to Minnesota because of its nice, bad weather.

DAN OLSON: You have an abiding interest in young people, not only because you have your own children but you have been very involved with young people. I think you've been a foster parent. Are you a social worker as well?

THELMA BUCKNER: No, no, no. I'm not a social worker. And foster parents started-- I had eight kids of my own. They were in school. And every time they found or heard of a child having problems at home, they would tell that kid, mom will take you in. And long before I had license to be foster parent, I took in 560 kids from other parents. And I kept them sometime overnight, some time a whole week, and one kid I kept for 11 months.

The parents knew where he was, but he was out of control with them, and he enjoyed being with my family. And I took care of him. And nobody ever given me a penny to take care of that 560 kids. Well, when I got 561, that one kid I asked for help.

He came from Saint Paul. And I was living in Minneapolis, and I asked Saint Paul would they help. And they couldn't because he was now a resident of Minneapolis. I asked Minneapolis could they help. And they couldn't because he came from Saint Paul. So someone said, best thing you do is get your license, and one of these counties would help.

Well, after six months of struggling with that issue, I got my license. And then Minneapolis paid retroactive for the whole time the kid had been in the house. And that was in 1980. I became a licensed foster parent in 1980. And since then I've taken in lots of kids.

I won't even give a number. And just since 1987, I've been doing emergency shelter for Ramsey County. And I started out with teenage boys, and now I changed from that to kids from age 6 through 13. And I love every minute of it.

DAN OLSON: Curious about your reaction to the young people you see coming to you. Are they a great deal different than kids you knew when you were growing up in very poor circumstances in the Delta area of Mississippi, or are there things that are really different about kids today, do you think?

THELMA BUCKNER: No, no, no. All kids need love, and it always has been and always will be. And if given the right amount of attention and love, the child can turn out to be a good, resourceful human being just like you and me. It's not the different times. It's what we do for children in the time that they have their problems.

And no children is bad. We always say that bad boy, that bad girl. Kids are not bad. They're just kids. Just like we were raised in the preacher's home, but yet we did all kinds of little devilish things as soon as they weren't looking at us. And kids do the same thing. And the kids that come through my house, they don't have the problem, It's the parents in their life that have the problem that forces those kids to be relocated to a more settled foundation.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Thelma Buckner talking with Minnesota Public Radio's Dan Olson. We will hear more from Thelma Buckner, this week's voices of Minnesota interview in just a couple of minutes. You're listening to Midmorning. I'm Paula Schroeder. Programming on Minnesota Public Radio is supported by Bendix, a front-loading washer-dryer combination with water and energy conserving capabilities, new and independent appliance dealers.

It's coming up now on 17 minutes past 10 o'clock. In the weather today, it's going to start warming up with a chance of light snow or light freezing rain in northeastern Minnesota along the North Shore. Otherwise, it will be mostly cloudy. Look for high temperatures from 25 in the northeast to the lower 40s in the southwest. Already in Worthington it's 34 degrees.

Tonight, we can expect areas of dense fog or freezing drizzle and lows from the mid 20s to mid 30s. Tomorrow, a chance of snow showers in the north. And there's a good chance of rain in southeastern Minnesota, including the Twin Cities and Rochester areas. High temperatures will range from 35 degrees in the north to 45 in the south.

By Thursday and Friday, highs in the upper 30s to around 50 degrees. Right now it is 27 degrees in Rochester-- excuse me. It's 37 in Worthington. 43 degrees in Sioux Falls. In Duluth, it's cloudy and 23. 21 degrees in International Falls. And in the Twin Cities it's cloudy and 28 degrees.

We continue now with our interview with Thelma Buckner. She is a foster mother to hundreds of children. Now there's a new chapter unfolding in Thelma Buckner's life. She's on stage as an actor in Gospel in Blues Time, a Cricket Theater production playing at the Ordway in Saint Paul.

The play is the life story through music and stories of Buckner and two other women, Louella Pittman and Doris Hines. Well, we turn now to Dan Olson's conversation with Thelma Buckner.

DAN OLSON: Does it worry you about, that, the ability of kids to find a more settled foundation? Almost all of them probably leave you and either go back or go someplace else. What do you think needs to happen?

THELMA BUCKNER: It worries me. I really wished I was financially able to put up a home to train the parents how to be parents, and then I wouldn't have all of these problems with the children. Because sure as I get the kids, keep them with me a year, I changed their thinking, I restructure their environment. Well, I teach them how to sit at a table and eat properly. Those little things kids haven't been taught. I teach them how to be well-groomed, little things that parents seem to forget.

And as soon as they go back into the environment where that parent is, 9 times out of 10, the kids fall back. I just had an incident like that just about a month ago. Some kids was with me for a while, and then they left, they went back to that parent. And then just well, less than a month ago, they had to come back to me for a short time because the parent had another emergency and had to leave out of town. So they was glad to come back to my house.

It's so much different in the child I sent away and the child that came back until it's almost shameful. But what can you do? I can't save the world. I'm not Christ. I can only do what I can do and let it go on. I don't worry too much about it. It just bothers me that I don't have a place to raise parents. I need to raise the parents.

DAN OLSON: I can't let that issue go because I really want to press that point. I think a lot of people see what you describe and maybe are living with what you describe, the fact that they are parents who don't know how to raise children, don't know what to do. And I wonder how we're going to avoid that now as we move into the next generation of kids.

THELMA BUCKNER: I don't know if it's possible to avoid it because here's what happened, a lot of young parents didn't get the training upfront. So how can they train their children? How can they know what to do for their children if the generation before them didn't teach them? What I know was taught to me by my parents, and I just keep handing it down to my children, my biological, and my grandkids, and to all the other kids that come in my house.

But I had to learn from somebody. And we got a group out here now. Society has a group that hasn't been trained who are now parents. And if it continues that way, it's going to get worse instead of better. I think we're going to have to take to a lot of praying, asking God to intercede for us. And let's turn this situation around because it's totally out of hand now.

DAN OLSON: We have a growing number of voices who say it's tougher for parents today, let's say, than it may have been for your parents because there's one income, sometimes one parent in the home, sometimes no income because the whole job picture has changed. It's just tougher to be a parent these days.

THELMA BUCKNER: Well, it's not tougher to love the child and teach the child. It might be tougher to pay your bills. It might be tougher to find housing because a lot of people out there don't want to rent, first of all, to a mother with more than four kids. And ask me, I know. That's why I was forced to buy a home.

But it's not tougher to give that child what my parents gave us, undivided attention. If every parent would spend a lot more time in giving that child-- so you can't take him to the movie every week. So you can't buy him the Nike shoes he wants. So you can't do all these other fabulous things that some of the people in the higher income is doing. You can still give the same amount of attention to your child as the rich man give to his child. So there's no excuse.

DAN OLSON: What do you find personally, and then what do you find about the people, the families you work with. One view is that Minnesota and the nation generally, Minnesota specifically, is still a pretty segregated state. Not a lot of opportunity for breaking through that color barrier.

THELMA BUCKNER: Well, somebody did say once that the only difference in Mississippi and Minnesota is the snow. As far as segregation goes, we still have a lot of it, but we can't let that stop us.

DAN OLSON: I don't think people see that. I don't think white people see that. I think white people think, well, we all live together. Thelma Buckner, there you are. Here I am over here. We all live together.

THELMA BUCKNER: Well, you almost need to wear my shoes in order to see it. Like some people said, in order to feel like I feel, you need to wear my shoes. Now in the state of Minnesota, well, you see, look at me. I'm a little bit light skinned. I'm a Black woman all the way from inside and out. But because of my light skin-- my sister and I went to apply for a job because they had it in the paper. And we went, and we was told in our face they didn't want mixed breed.

In Minnesota, we've never been told nothing like that. In the Southland, we knew what side of the street to walk on and what restroom to go into and to go to the back door to the restaurant if we wanted to get a sandwich. And in Minnesota, we thought we was in the land of the free, and we went to be hired on a job we both needed.

We had little kids at home. We rushed out there early one morning, and the personnel person said they want minorities. They don't want mixed breed in Minnesota. Now, what are we going to do about that? So that's when I say, you can't feel it. You can't see it until you live it. You sometime need to change a uniform, change your hat, put on my shoes.

It's there. It's very vivid right now in Minnesota. All of my children can tell you incidents of where they went for certain things, and it didn't happen, and they just bluntly told them why. And some time now, well, the Minnesotans are a little bit more shrewd about getting the message over. I say they might be a little bit more educated than the Mississippi.

Mississippi will put up a sign and let you know what not to do. Minnesota folks they do it a different way, but it's still there. And really, it only difference between Mississippi and Minnesota is the snow. That's the only difference because segregation is still very much alive even now.

And that's sad because I'm wondering, what are we going to do when we get to heaven. All of us are going to be there together. And I'm really wondering what corner I'm going to be in. And I don't think God has no respect of persons. I think he loves us all the same. As a matter of fact, he does because he created all of us.

DAN OLSON: Now you're an actor. Here you are on the stage. You've been in a way I suppose maybe you've been sort of a one-woman show. You had the Minnesota Gospel Twins, and you could call the shots. Now, here you are an actor in a production on stage at the Ordway Theater by way of the Cricket Theater, which I believe is putting it on. First, before we get into the business about being an actor, tell us about the show? What is the show about?

THELMA BUCKNER: Oh, Gospel in Blues Time. And if I had anything to do with the naming of the show, I probably wouldn't have put the word blues. I would have said gospel in trouble time. But it means the same things. We had lots of troubles growing up, lots of conflicts, lots of disappointments and joys too in that.

But we were able to sing the gospel, hold on to our faith during all the troubled times we had. So I thank Bill Partland, our director, for coming up with a smoother name Gospel in Blues Time. And, of course, that might turn some of our Christians off to associate the word blues with gospel. And it's classified as the devil's music.

And what are Christian doing? I'd probably be condemned on stage for singing a gospel song and then listening to a blues song. That's the way we Christians are sometimes, bless our souls, but it just happens. But since I'm not the director and Bill knew more about what to call it than we did. Gospel in Blues Time is fine with me. Once you come and see the production, you will understand why it's called Gospel in Blues Time.

It's our life story, the three of us, in our own individual stories and of how we grew up. But every story is true. There's nothing but the truth in this as odd as it might sound. And some of it is going to sound like it's unreal. You're not going to believe it, but I'll reassure you that it's for real.

DAN OLSON: Well, how surprised could we be? How unreal could it be? Cite an example of a story from Thelma Buckner's life that might be in the production that is something that would test our imagination.

THELMA BUCKNER: Well, a funny thing is my life as a kid growing up there was only a radio in the house and no such thing. We hadn't even dreamed of television, a VCR, or anything like that. But that didn't mean we didn't have fun. We were just creative. So we used to catch toad frogs.

And someone made a mistake and told us that toad frogs would smoke. Would smoke. So I never believed cigarettes was made for human beings because all our lives we made frogs smoke. All you did is catch them and open that little cute mouth and put a cigarette in it. You light it and put the cigarette in, and they sit there until the whole cigarette is burned down to the lip. Then they swallow the butt.

But they sit there and smoke. So we didn't even need Walt Disney cartoon. We made our own just nobody was there to film them. Toad frogs will absolutely sit still until they finish their whole cigarette. So I don't mind the tobacco company continue to make cigarettes, but we should give them to the frogs. Nothing against those of you that smoke now. I don't care what you do with your life. But smoking is for frogs, not human beings.

DAN OLSON: Well, we're going to have to see the production to get the full story on that one.

THELMA BUCKNER: Hey, you have to. You have to.

DAN OLSON: You've taken care of hundreds of children who've been helped by you. Who's come back? Who's come back to you, and what have they said to you about their lives?

THELMA BUCKNER: My goodness, a lot of the kids come back, especially the boys. The teenage boys who's grown up, they marry, they bring their wife and their children back to see me. They come to my church. And they always come back at dinner time. They know what my dinner schedule is like. Between 5:30 and 6:30, at Buckner's home we are eating.

I don't care what else goes on in the daytime, between 5:30 and 6:30 they're eating. And they come in and say, well, we were just in the neighborhood and we'd drop by. And say, pull up a chair, get your plate, let's go at it. But they always come back to say thank you.

DAN OLSON: You say many of the children have turned out, who are now adults and have passed through the Buckner home.

THELMA BUCKNER: Well, quite a few of them had turned out just really surprisingly well. And just about a month ago, I had a young man come back. And he says-- everybody calls me granny in the community. And he says, granny, I want you to know all of my success, all of the progress I've made, I have to give you all the credit because when I came to you, I was very suicidal.

And you spent night after night sitting up with just me talking to me about how God loves me. And now I'm married. I got two kids, I got a good job, and I got my own car. That was worth all the problem I ever had with that one child. So it does pay off if we give the attention that's needed to children. Children don't need anything but love and attention. And if we can find the time in our busy schedule to do that for the child, everything else will fall in place.

DAN OLSON: Well, Thelma Buckner, you had your parents, and you had your community when you were growing up. Then as you got to be a teenager and a young adult, who else was there for you? Who else was there with a hand? Who was a big influence in your life or may have pointed you in a direction?

THELMA BUCKNER: I had music. And when my parents passed-- they both was age 65 when they passed. And fortunately for us, we had an older brother who kind of took the role of parent, and he was there for us all the time. As a matter of fact, when my husband and I separated and I had the eight kids to raise by myself, he played the role of surrogate father.

He was there. He was the minister, my minister, my older brother. And my kids call him dad because he was there to give advice. He'd come by and picked up the kids and took them all out to dinner when we didn't have any dinner at home, and he didn't even know that.

He has purchased coats for them and stuff like that. The man was just there. And I tell you, I know heaven is enjoying him as an angel up there now. But we miss him so much. I don't know if I'll ever really get over it, but he has been that one main mentor for me in my life.

DAN OLSON: Well, mother with eight children being separated from the father, the husband, that must have been a very tough chapter of your life.

THELMA BUCKNER: It was but it's something that had to happen. We weren't fighters. There was no violence in the family. We can't say it was any abuse of anything like that. But my husband was raised not being taught that he should provide for the family. And every time he got a check, he did something else with it before he got home. And I had to get a job and go to work.

And I figured if I got to pay the rent and buy the food and the clothing for the kids, why do I need you in my life? So we went our separate ways. And, of course, he found another younger woman and got married and started another family. Guess what? He called me one day from Chicago and asked me, would I take the other three kids he got and raise them because I turned out to be a better mom than the other mom he had there.

So we had a hard time, but we got along. And I had God on my side. Every time I ran out of something, every time I see I couldn't pay my bills, I'd go back in my bedroom and get on my knees and throw up my hand to God and say, God, you've got to help me out of this one. And he always came through. He has been that bridge for me. He has never let me down.

And he worked sometimes through those brothers and sisters I had. So it's good to have a big family. I had eight. My parents raised 10. And I don't see this thing about raising one or two kids. Both of those two kids might be in the same boat. If you get three or four, somebody is able to help the other one. So I still like big families. If I had to do it over again, I'd do the same thing, three sets of twins and two singles.

DAN OLSON: Thelma Buckner it's just a joy talking with you. Thank you so much.

THELMA BUCKNER: Thank you. Thank you for having me here.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Gospel singer Thelma Buckner talking with Dan Olson. The stage play which tells the story of the life of Thelma Buckner, Louella Pittman, and Doris Hines is called Gospel In Blues Time. It's on stage for three more weeks at the Ordway's McKnight Theater in Saint Paul. Our Voices of Minnesota series is produced by Dan Olson.

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27 minutes now before 11:00 o'clock. This is Midmorning on the FM News Station. I'm Paula Schroeder. Thanks a lot for joining us today on this President's Day. The kids are home from school, banks and government offices are closed and so are many other places of business. While we know it's Presidents Day, but a lot of us might not know that it's President's Day because February contains both the birthdays of Abraham Lincoln and George Washington.

I remember when I was a kid back in school, we got both those days off. Now we only get one. Well, two presidents, of course, that nearly every school child knows are Lincoln and Washington, but how many others are familiar to them or to adults for that matter? What makes a president go down in history as a notable figure? Wars and scandals or effective policymaking?

Well, joining us today to give us some perspective on US presidents is Daniel Hofrenning, a political science professor at Saint Olaf College in Northfield who's gained some prominence in the past year for his study on the role of religion in politics. He's got a book out called In Washington But Not of It. He's going to come back and talk with us about that on a different day. But today, he is talking about presidents and their role in history because Dan Hofrenning writing this is another area of specialty for you, right?

DAN HOFRENNING: Yes, it's a fascinating area. I think when presidents are memorable, they really have the potential to redefine an era. You can't really talk about the Civil War without talking about Lincoln, or you can't talk about the '30s and '40s without talking about Roosevelt. I think it's very fascinating topic and an important one.

We ask a lot about our president. We ask a lot of our presidents. We want them to slog through the coffee shops of Iowa and also be prepared for the most sensitive international negotiations. And that's a pretty tall order.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Yeah, as well as get good haircuts that don't cost a lot of money. I mean, there's a lot of attention on president's, certainly. You brought up the connection of Lincoln and the Civil War and Franklin Roosevelt to the depression, and, of course, to World War II. Can you talk about one without talking about the other? In other words, could there have been someone else in the office of the presidency at those particular times and had as much impact as those two men did?

DAN HOFRENNING: Well, I guess, that brings up the age-old question, do the times make the person, or does the person make the times? Sometimes political scientists and historians talk about periods of history, and they make the claim that once a generation or perhaps less frequently critical moments come when politics are transformed.

Now, if you're a president and you are lucky enough to be president at that time, that's a great opportunity to be a great, memorable leader. But perhaps also possible to miss those moments. And certainly to great presidents like Roosevelt to their credit they had some amazing personal skills that enabled them to take advantage of those situations.

PAULA SCHROEDER: I want to get our listeners involved in this. We've got a few minutes to talk about the role of presidents in history. And if you have some thoughts about that and some questions for Dan Hofrenning, give us a call here in the Twin Cities at 227-6000. Or you can reach us toll free at 1-800-242-2828. 227-6000 or 1-800-242-2828.

As you look at the 20th century, since Roosevelt, certainly, I think a lot of people would think that John Kennedy might go down in history, perhaps more because the fact that he was assassinated than anything else. But do you think that there are any presidents in the last 50 years or so that have made a mark on history?

DAN HOFRENNING: Well, the people who judge these things, primarily historians and journalists and other commentators, they always, of course, say Franklin Roosevelt was a great president. Usually, Woodrow Wilson and Theodore Roosevelt come in the near-great category. Truman and Eisenhower are clearly above average, as are Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson.

So perhaps what's distinctive about the 20th century is the number of presidents we would classify in the above average and great category. Compare the 20th century to the 19th century, and we seem to have more great or memorable presidents.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Why do you think that is? Is it because there is more going on in the 20th century that they had more responsibilities, more expected of them?

DAN HOFRENNING: Yes, I think in the 19th century, with the exception of Andrew Jackson and Abraham Lincoln, most of the presidents are forgettable. In part, that's because Congress was much more powerful. And I think also the 20th century, particularly with the rise of the media, enabled presidents to speak to their constituencies in ways they never could before.

One distinctive dimension of the presidency is their national constituency. They're the only person that speaks to all of the country. The senators, members of Congress have particular geographic constituencies. But prior to the 20th century, presidents weren't able to utilize that or take advantage of that. But with the advent of radio and television, presidents can communicate in ways they never could before.

PAULA SCHROEDER: We've got some callers on the line already. And Russ is calling from Minneapolis with a question for Dan Hofrenning. Hi Russ?

RUSS: Hi. Thanks for taking my call. I have a question about the right hand man or person in a president's life. Lincoln had John Hay. Roosevelt had Harry Hopkins. I wonder if you've looked into what kind of influence those people have on a great president because it always seems like a great president always had somebody who was their close confidant?

DAN HOFRENNING: Sure. I think every president has had that. Some have had more than one. It's hard to make generalizations about the role of that close confidant. It probably varies with each individual president. One interesting trend in the 20th century has been the growth of White House staff. Franklin Roosevelt had about 50 full-time paid staff, and now the White House staff is over 500. So there are many more close confidants, or many more people in the presidential orbit than previously.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Acting as advisors. Well, certainly, President Nixon had a couple that maybe he wished he hadn't advising him, particularly on the Watergate situation, Haldeman and Ehrlichman. President Nixon is a pretty interesting case study, I would think, for someone in your position as a political scientist interested in the presidency.

Because certainly, he has gone hot and cold already in just the last 20, 30 years where some people really hate him. I think a lot of revisionist history already coming out about Nixon and perhaps what a great leader he really was in some people's eyes. Are you watching that to see where he ends up?

DAN HOFRENNING: Well, I thought it was interesting. At President Nixon's funeral, Bob Dole gave a very emotional, tearful speech. And he called the late 20th century, The Age of Nixon. Now, perhaps that's a slight exaggeration, but certainly, there were some great accomplishments during the Nixon years, the breakthrough to China, breakthrough to the Soviet Union. And in addition, I think some domestic initiatives that had some creativity that Nixon has often not given credit for.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Such as?

DAN HOFRENNING: The Environmental Protection Agency was created in his administration. He proposed a national health care plan with employer mandates, something proposed with great fanfare by President Clinton a couple of decades later. His welfare reform proposal of his that was defeated. Now, in retrospect, looks rather progressive.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Yeah. OK. What do you think of presidents? Do you have some that you think were overlooked in history, perhaps? And how is history judging certain presidencies? Give us a call here at 227-6000 in the Twin Cities or 1-800-242-2828. Do you think that there has to be some kind of war or conflict or scandal in order for a president to be remembered in history?

DAN HOFRENNING: Well, of course, a scandal would be usually something of a president's own making. The war or economic crises they're external events that are thrust on a president. I think that's probably true. What if Franklin Roosevelt were president without the Great Depression or without World War II, what kind of leader would he look like?

What would Lincoln have looked like without the Civil War? So clearly, history presents presidents with some opportunities. But individual presidents still have to have the leadership ability to take advantage of that and to transform the political debate, and great presidents do that.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Yeah, you said the 20th or rather the 19th century really didn't have very many presidents that made much of a mark. And again, talking about the role of the media in reporting about what a president is doing, as well as giving him a podium from which to speak.

James Fallows has written a book called Breaking the News and has one chapter in which he talks about reporters and the way they report on the presidency. And he is theorizing that now perhaps the extra scrutiny that Bill Clinton is going through on the part of reporters maybe has something to do with the end of the Cold War. That no longer is the president seen as the person with the finger on the button that could destroy the world with nuclear weapons and that he perhaps isn't as important as he once was.

DAN HOFRENNING: Well, I haven't read Fallows article, but that's an interesting proposition. Perhaps some presidents will be waxing nostalgically for that era before the end of the Cold War. It's an interesting proposition if we think about campaign commercials, for example. How often has the red telephone been featured in campaign commercials.

And usually it's blinking menacingly to viewers. And viewers are asked, who do you want to be seated next to that red telephone? We don't see that anymore. And what's our equivalent to the red telephone? Perhaps there is nothing like that.

PAULA SCHROEDER: No big overriding threat or issue that the president has to deal with on a constant basis.

DAN HOFRENNING: Well, and perhaps that means that a president has less influence, having the ability to start some kind of nuclear confrontation. Or some other kind of war. Of course, they still have that capability, but it seems less likely to happen. But the kinds of things we now associate with our president, perhaps we're not as convinced as we used to be that the president is capable of making a real difference.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Yeah. Let's go back to the phones. Mike is calling from Edina. Good morning, Mike.

MIKE: I wanted to ask you your guest. What does he think-- or how do you think Jimmy Carter will go down in the history books?

PAULA SCHROEDER: Yeah, this is another real interesting one, I think, because he has become such a diplomat really, since he stepped down or was defeated in his bid for a second term as president. He was seen as kind of a weak president, I think. And yet now is seen as, again, as a real diplomat, statesman.

DAN HOFRENNING: Clearly, he's one of our most admired and memorable ex-presidents. As a president, though most people judge him as no better than average, I think to Jimmy Carter's credit, he did do a couple of things that look magnificent in retrospect. The Panama Canal Treaty many people said that couldn't be done, Jimmy Carter said, I want to do it.

The Camp David Accords were also another memorable achievement. I think also in Carter's favor is the set of external circumstances dealt him, oil shocks in the Middle East and the Iranian hostage crisis, were really some thorny dilemmas that it's hard to imagine how any president could have dealt with them successfully. And perhaps there were moments that Jimmy Carter was wishing that he had lost the presidency to Gerald Ford, and Gerald Ford had to deal with them.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Yeah, exactly. Daniel Hofrenning is our guest today here on Midmorning. He's a professor of political science at Saint Olaf College in Northfield and a specialist in the role of presidents throughout history. And, of course, we're talking about presidents on this President's Day, February 19. Dean is calling from Prior Lake. Hello.

DEAN: Hello. I have a question for Dan. I would like to know if he feels that the media is super intensive attention on a President's private life and/or business life before and after he's been elected detracts from what the president must do as our country's leader and as a world leader. And I'll hang up and listen.

DAN HOFRENNING: Well, I think that's absolutely true. The classic case is, of course, Franklin Roosevelt. The media had kind of an agreement or a deal not to reveal the fact that he had polio. How would Franklin Roosevelt look like today if perhaps his crutches or his legs were on the front page of the newspaper as sometimes the physical ailments of presidents are?

I think also John Kennedy comes to mind. Lots of allegations about extramarital affairs, and the media seems to have had a code of silence. Perhaps those presidents would not have fared as well under the media glare that's present right now.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Yeah, indeed. The media plays a big role in the coverage of the presidents. 12 minutes before 11:00 o'clock. We've got a few minutes left for more questions if you want to talk about or ask Dan Hofrenning about a particular president, or if you have some comments about ones that you think may have been overlooked in history. Give us a call at 227-6000, or you can reach us toll free at 1-800-242-2828. Jeff is calling from Marshall, Minnesota. Hi, Jeff.

JEFF: Hi, Paula. I was wondering, you brought up at the beginning that we used to celebrate Washington and Lincoln's birthday, and I remember that fondly myself. And now we only have one. And it seems that happened around the time that we began to celebrate Martin Luther King day, which I appreciate and respect as a holiday quite a lot.

And I'm wondering if your expert has any thoughts on why we only celebrate one. If I could say quickly for a moment why I think it might be is, one, I think that the American government thinks that American workers have enough days off already. So that when they decided to add one more holiday, the King Day holiday, they couldn't really stomach the idea of giving us an extra day off. So they created President's Day as one day.

But I think the problem with that is, is that it privileges executive authority and celebrates all presidents, even bad ones, so that we celebrate Franklin Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson and Abraham Lincoln and George Washington the same time we celebrate Warren Harding and Richard Nixon and some of the lesser presidents that we've had. And I'm wondering if it fits into part of the imperial presidency and in some way limits the kind of small-d democracy by privileging executive authority over, say, types of elected officials that are closer to the people?

PAULA SCHROEDER: Oh, brought up a number of issues there. Jeff, Thanks for calling. I think that-- didn't the one day holiday come when the federal government decided to go to these Monday holidays and kind of putting-- just like they change Memorial Day from May 31 to the last Monday in--

DAN HOFRENNING: And the 4th of July.

PAULA SCHROEDER: No, the 4th of July is still the 4th of July. I think that's the only holiday that is actually celebrated on the actual date. Yeah.

DAN HOFRENNING: Well, I think the caller's analysis is probably true. We're in a kind of an anti-government mood, and perhaps there is some sense that federal government workers have enough days off or government workers or all workers have enough days off. As to your comments about what it does to our view of the presidency, and does it lead us to construct some kind of imperial presidency, I'm not sure that's true.

When President's Day comes up, most of us probably think about particular presidents and don't think so much about the Office of the Presidency or the power that presidents are coming to have. So I'm not sure if we can say that creating that single holiday leads to some type of imperial presidency. But I think it's an interesting theory and one that is worth paying attention to and watching.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Let's face it, Dan, most people go shopping.

[LAUGHTER]

It's a day off on President's Day.

DAN HOFRENNING: Well, I was over at the Children's Museum just a few minutes ago, and that was a delightful way to start the day.

PAULA SCHROEDER: A hoppin' place today, I'll bet.

DAN HOFRENNING: Oh, indeed.

PAULA SCHROEDER: Well, I want to thank you so much for coming in and helping us reflect a little bit on the presidency here in the United States of America. Thanks, Dan.

DAN HOFRENNING: Well, Thank you, Paula. It was my pleasure. Dan Hofrenning is a political science professor at Saint Olaf College in Northfield.

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7 and 1/2 minutes before 11:00 o'clock. This is Midmorning on the FM News Station. Thanks to all of you who called with your pledge of support during our spring membership drive. When we started our week-long campaign, we set a goal of 10,000 calls, the number of new renewing and additional gifts that would ensure our ability to meet this year's budget and offset declining federal support.

We knew it was a challenge to ourselves and to our listeners. With terrific listener and volunteer support, we were able to reach the 8,500 call mark. That's great progress, but it leaves a big challenge unmet. If you did not make your pledge, you can still help. Just send your contribution to Minnesota Public Radio 45 East 7th Street, Saint Paul, Minnesota. 55101.

We want to say welcome to our new members. Thanks for making this your radio station. And thanks as well to everyone who called to renew their memberships and to give additional gifts. Together we are keeping Minnesota Public Radio strong.

Coming up at 11 o'clock this morning, it's Midday. We'll have the latest on the trial of former University of Minnesota surgeon Dr. John Najarian. Also, Gary Eichten will talk with Arthur Caplan, director of the Center for Bioethics at the University of Pennsylvania about the effect of the Najarian trial on the reputation of the University of Minnesota Medical School. At noon, another part of our series on Black radio that's coming up on Midday today. First, here's Garrison Keillor in the Writer's Almanac.

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GARRISON KEILOR: And here is the Writer's Almanac for Monday. It's the 19th of February, 1996. It's President's Day, public holiday in this month of February in which also fall the birthdays of George Washington and Abraham Lincoln.

Today is also the beginning of the Chinese New Year, the lunar year 4694 on the Chinese calendar designated the Year of the Rat. In Iceland. It's Bun Day. Bun Day, B-U-N, when children visit homes in the morning and receive gifts of whipped cream buns.

In Germany and Austria, today is celebrated as Fasching, the Feast of Fools, the start of a Shrovetide festival marked by processions of masked figures. It's the birthday of the Polish astronomer Nicolaus Copernicus, who revolutionized science back in the 16th century by theorizing that Earth and the other planets revolve around the sun. The sun does not revolve around us. We are not at the center of the universe.

It was on this day in 1906, the Battle Creek Toasted Corn Flake Company of Michigan began selling its corn flakes to the public. It's the birthday of Carson McCullers in 1917, the novelist who gave us The Heart is a Lonely Hunter and The Ballad of the Sad Cafe.

Novelist and short story writer Kay Boyle was born on this date in Saint Paul, Minnesota. She wrote the White Horses of Vienna and the short story collection entitled, Defeat. Thomas Edison got a patent on his invention of the phonograph on this day in 1878.

It was in 1922 that the comedian Ed Wynn signed on for a regular radio program with him as the star. Up until that time, radio had been considered a medium that no vaudeville star would dare go on. It was considered beneath them.

It was in 1912 on this date the Polish novelist Adolf Rudnicki was born who depicted Jewish life under the Nazis during World War II. He was a bank clerk in Warsaw, began his literary career at the age of 20 when he published his novel Rats. His second work was entitled Soldiers, and it roused a storm of reaction from the fascists in Poland.

Here's a poem for today by May Sarton entitled "blizzard." "Hard to imagine daffodils where I see nothing but white veils, incessant falling of thick snow in this nowhere non-landscape which has no shadow and no shape and holds me fast and holds me deep and will not ceasefire before I sleep.

Hard to imagine somewhere else where life could stir and has a pulse. And know that somewhere else will be this very field changed utterly with hosts of daffodils to show that spring was there under the snow. New Englanders are skeptical of what cannot depend on will. Yet I should know that this wide range of white and green and constant change have kept me kindled on the edge of fear, traveling the weather like a mountaineer."

"Blizzard" a poem May Sarton from her collected poems 1930 to 1993. Published by WW Norton & Company and used here by permission on the Writer's Almanac. Monday, February 19th, made possible by Coles Magazines, publishers of Early American life. Be well, do good work and keep in touch.

PAULA SCHROEDER: That's Midmorning for this President's Day. Thanks a lot for joining us. And stay tuned for Midday, which is coming up next. Tomorrow, it's the New Hampshire primary, and we are going to be hearing once again The Campaign Connection, a special broadcast from WBUR in Boston. You can hear that at 9:00 o'clock tomorrow morning as part of Midmorning here on the FM News Station.

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JOHN RABE: I'm John Rabe, of All Things Considered. In a few days, listen for an interview with Al Franken, author of Rush Limbaugh Is a Big Fat Idiot. It's All Things Considered weekdays at 3:00 on the FM News Station, KNOW-FM, 91.1.

PAULA SCHROEDER: You're listening to Minnesota Public Radio. 28 degrees under cloudy skies at the FM News Station, KNOW-FM, 91.1, Minneapolis, Saint Paul. Twin Cities weather for today calls for mostly cloudy skies. And we should have warmer temperatures with a high getting up in the upper 30s to around 40 degrees. Tomorrow, a 60% chance of rain with a high from 40 to 45.

GARY EICHTEN: Good morning. It's 11:00 o'clock, and this is Midday on the FM News Station. I'm Gary Eichten. In the news this morning, closing arguments are being presented today in the federal trial of University of Minnesota transplant surgeon Johm Najarian. Najarian is charged with fraud and tax evasion. Republican presidential candidates are staging one last blitz for votes. New Hampshire voters go to the polls tomorrow in the nation's first presidential primary. Polls indicate that Bob Dole, Pat Buchanan and Lamar--