(00:00:00) I welcome you to today's open Forum town meeting open Forum Town meetings are a joint production of Minnesota public radio stations in the Northland the FM news station wsvn. The classical music station WS C D. And wir on the Range The Joint production with the Duluth News Tribune providing daily coverage on issues of concern to Minnesota, Wisconsin. And Michigan residents additional funding is provided by Norwest Banks Duluth combining local commitment service in the capital strength of a diversified economy. Today's topic is the price of justice is Justice equally available to all regardless of economic or social status. Well recent events. May lead some to believe that's not entirely the case many believe that OJ Simpson was acquitted of murder only because he was able to afford high-priced and able attorneys as well as the so-called experts who could refute evidence. America's jails and prisons hold a disproportionately high percentage of the nation's minority communities which some attribute to the inmates inability to afford counsel or due to a racism that may pervade across Society. And those who must rely on court-appointed representation or in Minnesota public defenders may find themselves represented by capable, but perhaps badly overworked attorneys. Well are these perceptions accurate? What are the weaknesses in the judicial system and how might they be strengthened? To help us tackle this problem. We're joined today by two of the judges serving Minnesota's 6 Judicial District the honorable Judge Donovan, Frank and Dale wolf. I'm Bob Kelleher news director at Minnesota Public Radio in Duluth. And also at our lead table is a representative of the Duluth News Tribune. Cindy Nelson will be assisting and of course our (00:01:49) guest so let's first open the floor to comments from our guests will start with (00:01:54) judge Dale wolf Judge Wolf is one of 15 who serves the six judicial district in his 18th year on the bench Judge Wolf overseas trial assignments and the tenth Judicial District. He presides on the Supreme Court of Appeal panel for mentally ill and dangerous as a member of the adjunct faculty for the University of Minnesota Duluth and the Fond du Lac Community College. He teaches courses in crime and punishment Juvenile Justice and contemporary issues in law enforcement Judge Wolf. Thank you, Bob. I'd like to take a moment to thank not only WS c n in public radio, but the Duluth News Tribune for sponsoring this event and thank all of you interested citizens that are here today and paid good money to hear us in the participate in this forum. I've only two requests one would be Since they gave us a free ten dollar meal that we should take a moment to think about renewing our household pledges to public radio $66 buys us a lot of fantastic programs. And the second request is since the Duluth News Tribune is here. I would hope they would invite us back to the deck. Maybe this weekend during the UMD go for game. What price Justice? Opens many issues. We're going to be talking a little bit today about the dollars and cents of it, but I don't think we can address that issue without talking about the human costs also and certainly things that are affecting the quality of life here in America here in Minnesota here in northeastern, Minnesota. One of the things that I want the public to understand and to keep in perspective is Minnesota does have three branches of government. We are the third branch the Judiciary, but we are very lean in trim branch. Some people have an idea that three branches mean that there's three equal systems of funding and three equal shares of the pie. It may interest you to know that the entitled the entire budget of the Judiciary constitutes 3/4 of 1 percent of the state budget. In other words, the other two branches comprise, ninety nine point two five percent. But it's an important branch. And as you know, there's probably nothing more basic to government having legitimate right then to have a forum for resolving disputes in administering Justice. we have a lot of issues that the bench is concerned with judges are human beings judges live in your neighborhoods judges have children judges worry about schools. We are just fellow citizens. When we talk about what price Justice one of the opening lines that introduced the program had to do for example with our state public defender system. Let me just comment for a moment that at least in the sixth district here in northeastern, Minnesota. If you are very wealthy and obviously can afford the best representation. You will spare no cos and you will have that representation. If you do not have monies and if your Indigent and you qualify for a public defender, you will also have representation. It's important to note that in this area. At least you'll see most of the same skilled criminal trial lawyers appearing in those two scenarios. In other words, the piano and the 6th District of public defenders are very very competent in those that cannot afford to retain their own attorney get very fine quality representation. Now, that doesn't mean they're not overworked that doesn't mean that they don't need a lot of support staff. That doesn't mean that things are all hunky-dory, but I just want to make sure the public doesn't have a perception that somehow if you only get a public defender, you're really suffering in terms of the quality of representation. Probably the most valuable resource. We need in addition to the state budget that we talked about from year to year. Within the Minnesota Judiciary and within our own criminal justice system in particular is the public confidence in public support. You the citizens have to feel confident about what kind of a system of justice you have. I know that you share a lot of concerns. I know that right now the general public in Minnesota is not happy with a lot of things maybe Across the Nation that's echoed. And I'm not just talking on the criminal side. There was a recent article in the fall edition of the Minnesota trial lawyer magazine, and I hope at least the attorneys in our audience got a chance to read that. It's a article entitled. How are we doing in the coffee shops? And it's some general observations that were made by an attorney Richard Taylor out of Crookston, Minnesota. There's a lot of concern with how we resolve disputes for our citizens. How costly it is how time consuming it is and so we have to talk about allocation of scarce assets. Bench time is a very very expensive resource. Jury time is a very limited and expensive public resource and we have to manage them wisely the concerns that we have From the Bench. I suppose basically is a growing caseload. In the last eight years 1986 to 1988 94. We've had a tremendous growth. And the pace of new judgeships of not kept current. What does that translate into the price of Justice? We handle 64% more felony and gross misdemeanor cases now than 8 years ago. We had 65 percent more juvenile petitions filed last year than 8 years ago. Each judge has an average of 706 major cases per year. To dispose of plus thousands of minor cases and by minor cases, that's all they keep statistics. It doesn't mean minor to the importance of people because those minor cases include DWI and they include domestic assault. When the number of judges do not keep Pace with the growing caseload, we see some disturbing results on an average today judges spend only eleven point three minutes on each misdemeanor DWI case they spend approximately 20 minutes and every domestic assault. They spend only 5 minutes on every juvenile traffic case. The number and frequency of Trials is grown. We have to try to do as much as we can in for 10 years. We really have with that limited budget. We've had a state court administration that is in local Court Administration that has tried to make us as productive as we can be and at some point across the board though the the rhetoric of doing more with Wes ends. And I think we're at the point now that I can safely say we can only do less with less. We can't do more with less. There are some things that we need to do and we're trying to do on the bench. There's things that we need the understanding and support of the citizens the understanding and support of the legislature. We generally have that we have options we can look at and our caseloads including night court and Saturday courts and maybe the marketplace dollars for for overtime and things of that nature, but when we talk about what price Justice I think we have to keep in mind and we often forget the Human Side. that's why I've been very interested in restorative justice the rights of victims what Justice really has always traditionally meant and sometimes we lose sight of that when we get into more of the feed producing Enterprise. What happens to the forget the Forgotten middle class Average Joe working person that neither has the money for any attorney. They want nor qualify for public defender on the criminal side nor Legal Aid on the Civil side. I'm not really certain. I know that there's been moves in Washington to curtail funding all along the board everybody here everybody listening to public radio's. Well aware of that are legal aid has gone through some real challenging times. It's rather interesting that Washington who preaches a cutback and federalism wants to micromanage certain things like telling legal aid, they could continue in operation if they had people wave attorney client relationships or perhaps stay out of family law. So I guess if you're poor at least in Washington's Viewpoint, you don't deserve to get a divorce and maybe we could expect a rise in domestic abuse. I'm not certain, but I know that there's a lot of The issue is in a lot of problems facing us. We're going to try to answer those today. And I know that you didn't pay your money and come through today's weather just to listen to a couple of Judges drone on so I'm going to finish and let judge Frank have his very short comments also, so we have more time for the discussion and the question and answers. Thank you again. Thank you judge wolf. Judge, Donovan Frank is the chief judge of the six judicial district is encompasses st. Louis Lake Cook and Carlton counties. He's a member of the conference of Chief Judges, which sets policy and manage his finances of the trial courts and of the resource management committee and identifies ways to share and extend the systems limited resources. He's also a member of the Supreme Court's racial bias implementation committee, which seeks ways to fulfill recommendations of the racial bias task force, please welcome judge, Donovan Frank, (00:12:45) Do I get your time deal? I took an oath every judge takes an old family go onto the bench that we promised and commit to give every man woman child in our state Equal justice and to treat every one of those people with dignity patience and respect regardless of their race their gender their socio-economic class or standing the religion or Creed now, I see some people shaking your head. Yes and some no out in the audience. So I how fair are the courts and if they're not fared. What are we doing about it in our do every one of you and the people that you know have the same access to the system. I will answer that question is quite different depending on who you ask and it varies especially broken down by gender by race and by socioeconomic class and I would suggest you which is true whether you make that inquiry of people in California Minnesota, whether you ask people in the streets of Duluth or the onion rings Carlton and the polls that followed the OJ Simpson case and the findings of our own Minnesota Supreme Court's racial bias task force a majority of upper class and upper class and upper middle class white Americans will tell you they think the system is fair most of the time and they have good access a majority of people of color will tell you quite the opposite the white upper white middle class will tell you that OJ Simpson was guilty the majority of poor people and people of color will tell you that they're not sure but why not rest with the jury's verdict simply because there were nine black The jury shouldn't be the determining Factor. A woman stopped me on the street a month or two ago right before school started in Virginia with tears coming down her eyes. She hadn't been paid any child support for three months. She couldn't afford clothing for her kids for the new school year and said, you don't know how I feel if she were here today and maybe she is she would tell you she begged me to find her a lawyer for one thing. She would tell you the system isn't fair and she didn't have access almost the same week a man stopped me coming out of the courthouse. He hadn't seen his daughter for three or four years his ex-wife rightly or wrongly probably wrongly had interfered with his visitation rights. He begged me to help him find a lawyer if he was here today and perhaps he is he would say I didn't get access to the system because I didn't have a lawyer and I didn't have enough money to get a lawyer. What's important in all this is that many many people are engaged in a financial and economic struggle in in our country. And we're no different the court system has to acknowledge that we all have to acknowledge that if we are going to be better for it and improve the system. We need to accept and acknowledge and I believe many of us do that. There's clear there's a clear proof of existence of racial strife and in our country and there's a perception amongst people of color and poor people with the court system isn't fair that's perception and we must strive to address that perception. Unfortunately that perception and some of you will say, well it's just not perception is reality and I'll talk about both exist at a time. When our state as Judge Wolf commented on there's an overloaded court calendar almost every Court House you walk into And that's particularly the case with a substantial increase if not explosion in major juvenile crime domestic assault family law cases and juvenile delinquency in general each judge that I know wants to spend more time on violence cases with especially assault within the family. Each Jones. I know wants to spend more time on drunk driving cases. Each judge remains concerned about the impression that each of us creates on families on men and women when we pushed the cases through and we should be spending more time not less and is there's wolf said we're actually spending left time trying to address the cases coming through. However, I believe there's good news with the bad despite this increase. I believe that we have an unbalanced people in the system of want to spend more time on important cases spend more time with the kids and Families. Come along and I'd like to address briefly. What we're trying to do in the conference of Chief Judges Statewide some initiatives. We've recently completed some initiatives that are underway. I guess the the buzz words nowadays or what's the Strategic agenda for the next couple of years. We're looking at first are the resources in the system allocated fairly by District where we've got to focus on improved customer service acknowledging that it's the People's Court system and it's not there to serve the people that work in it certainly isn't there to serve the judges. It's there for the consumers to come through and trying to create a consumer mentality. We have it a special initiative to address what I would call the explosion of pro se litigation in our state and Country including written and What materials and written via and videos that are presently being completed for each courthouse in the state? We're trying to review bail pretrial release procedures across the state to promote uniformity and fairness for all people who are in jail and to make room for the truly violent offender, but release the others and certain conditions. Interestingly enough a group of us went around the state to five areas to do what are called focus groups to Major the quality of services that were rendering and how to what extent we've suffered because of the increased caseloads all over the state and the complexity of problems common themes were in each of these areas. We conducted them in Bloomington Alexandria Bemidji Mankato and the last year in Duluth and this all took place in the last last 18 months in the themes that came out of those were a number but I'll try to summarize them diverting more cases are the system of the use of alternative dispute resolution to increased client satisfaction speed the cases up reduce caseloads and hold down the cost and more mediation and family law cases more required education and prevention programs as you come into the system and example Oakley would be the kid. First program for men women and children improving access to the system of the Working Poor and lower middle class with the help of more use of uniform forms and video materials and attempting evening and weekend court with some of us have tried to do in this area domestic violence initiatives to address the more than 13,000 cases that came through our doors last year with local network communities with Family Violence councils with both defendants victims mental health professionals people in and out of the system on them and frankly a recognition by you and by me whether you're in the system or outside of it that communities raise children that court systems Community stop violence. We can't do it by yourselves and we're trying to come to grips with the impact of violence on who I suggest you were forgotten victims often times the children living in these homes. We're piloting a one family one Court project. And st. Paul were one judge takes the entire family whether it's juvenile criminal family court ofp order for protection Court moving on to the Minnesota task force for on racial bias and its implementation committee, which I believe has made significant progress in the last couple of years District by district and state wide. We've conducted conducted cultural diversity training for every employee in the court system. We had a diversity employment Conference in October of 94. The whole focus should be obvious driving for a more diverse Workforce in the court system here in our own District. We've updated completely the jury management procedures. The whole point is to make juries more diverse in the make jury service easier with such things as public transportation daycare shorter jury service. I do the want to spend the next and five minutes talking about this whole topic of our we tough on crime. Is that the solution if we are and how is that affected access of all of you and the people, you know the system with the tremendous increase in criminal juvenile family cases what has happened to the cost of the prison system. Well first let me back up our we tough on crime because the public expects us to be and we are the system is tough when we need to be so but not without an extraordinary price of the prison system. And the cost of that is increased over a hundred percent just in the last 10 years since 89 the institutional cost of keeping prisoners in the prison system has increased a hundred and seven percent and that means that what was a cost of 74 million then is a hundred and fifty four million our projected to go to 267 million dollars by the year. And that's only for inmates in prisons. It's been unheard of growth in unprecedented growth in our state today. We have 46 hundred people in prison that compares to twenty two thousand ten years ago that does not count the 5200 jail beds in each County that in the counties that are full. It does not count over 90,000 people not in jail, but on probation and it doesn't count to a hundred million dollars. It is going to be spent on a new 800 prison in the year 2000 if we don't get a hold on this at a cost of 25 thousand dollars minimum per inmate per year, which incidentally I could hire a teacher in a teacher's aide for that. And why would I say something like that if we continue to build jails and prisons like we're building them we are going to do so at the expense of educating our kids hearing for most of our parents. And grandparents and the elderly and we're going to totally destroy the money for education and prevention programs. Yes. We have to be tough on crime and Public Safety demands it and I don't know a judge that's bashful about doing that. But I would we need to recognize were eating up all the taxpayers money and I would suggest to you. It's not a long-term solution know you're going to say, well he soft on crime and I think my sentencing practices might indicate something to the contrary but frankly the most effective long-term prevention strategies in the court system is coming to grips with that today is improve educational opportunities and outcomes job education job creation welfare reform and real special initiatives in each Community for the at-risk Youth were the judges are striving to seek modifications to the sentencing guidelines law to ensure prison space for the dangerous offender the violent offender, but look at something just won't be going to talk about the more cost. Your way of dealing with most non non violent criminals in the intermediate sanction area. There's we must recognize the role of community-based sanctions to create maintain space for the violent offenses. And there's many many. I don't have time to go over them. But we've got in Minnesota alone bootcamps work Crews for adults and juveniles seven-day-a-week mandatory alcohol drug testing work Crews at crime sites. We've got work Crews all over this area 6 and this District alone, we've got restitution and restorative justice programs were victims are getting together with defendants nonviolent offenders And discussing what they have done. We are sending defendants back to the communities that they've damaged if it's a non-violent offense with the consent of the victims. We've got day reporting focusing on job training many intensive probation programs. And of course strong treatment component with Aftercare in the DWI and domestic violence area. I'll stay with you about three more minutes here. I want to say a couple things that I feel extremely strongly about and I believe that these statistics and studies will back me up on it. And I don't think I'll surprise most of you. First of all, I would ask you to keep in mind that many many studies including the Minnesota State planning's office comprehensive study on sentencing Effectiveness back in 1988 found that the only factor that was by proven deterrent to repeat offenses was the speed with which we can get those people in and sentence them and sanction and whether it's for punishment purposes treatment purposes Rehabilitation, we can never lose sight of that as this overload continues. I can assure you that every Judds I know continues to remain extremely concerned about investing so heavily in prisons and the back end of the system at the expense of Education prevention and Speedy imposition of sanctions by the court. There has to be a balance there. You know, what leave you with some thoughts and at the end I like to leave you with a quote. This is these are my words now for those of you that are satisfy or discs dissatisfied with a system. One thing is true. Our legal system can force them open doors. We can strive to be fair. We can be just we can put down and knock down racist barriers gender barriers socio-economic barriers, but we can't give the hope and education to our kids that are growing up in these families or lack of families that are coming into our court system each day. And if you don't keep if you don't believe me when I say people are engaged in a struggle out there come on into anywhere courthouses and have a seat take any day A Wish what overcomes racial and gender bias and all these other unacceptable things. I think that most of us find unacceptable are strong value of some hope and solid education and high expectations for the people who are raising our kids and if we don't work together the court system can do it alone. You can't do it alone and the challenge to each of us. Seems to me is some of us from each Community regardless of race Walk of Life gender. We have to come together to solve these things and that's probably more important anything else that will ever do. I've got a list of things about education of young adults in a challenge to to you and I but I want to leave you with a quote wear them to talk about some of the great teen parenting programs were there for the first time dealing with the role of the father and the mother absent or not in a child's life and some of the great personal responsibility anti-violence curriculum all around us, but I want to leave you with a quote and then I'll sit down I was at a conference in California two years ago in a Jed stood up and said if you don't want to make a difference and you don't want to do the right thing by people and you don't want to help your community then step aside and let somebody else take your job and and the quote that you use or some George Bernard Shaw and I'd like to leave you with And the point of it is each of us must be a splendid torch and I will tell you what I mean and I quote this is a true joy in life. The being used for a purpose recognized by yourself as a mighty one the being a force of nature instead of a feverish selfish little cloud of ailments and grievances complaining that the world will not devote itself to making you happy. I am of the opinion that my life belongs to the whole community in as long as I live. It is my privilege to do for it. Whatever I can I want to be thoroughly used up when I die for the harder. I work the more I live I rejoice in Life or its own Safe Life is no brief candle to me. It is sort of a splendid torch, which I've got holder for the moment and I want to make it burn as brightly as I can before handing it on to Future generations and to court We have desires judges to make a difference our community and our children need each of us to be Splendid towards and seems to me. That's just not my challenge at yours. Thank you. (00:29:58) Thank you. Judge. Donovan. Frank will be happy to entertain questions (00:30:02) now for the remainder of our program and certain the microphone. Why don't you go ahead I'm Cal Hayworth. I am State chair from add Minnesota and president of the st. Louis County chapter of mad. Just a quick question for either or both of the judges in recent years. The voice of the victim has been allowed to be heard in the courtroom after the verdict has been reached how has this impacted you as a judge or does it influence you at all? (00:30:34) Well, mr. Hayworth. I think that it's helped us greatly in two different ways. It part of it is restorative justice. The victim for too long has not been part of what was old-fashioned Justice and it brings to the whole system because I'm not the only one in that courtroom hearing victims. There are defendants. There are attorneys there are and I mean prosecution and defense there are probation people. There's a whole Spectrum. But in addition to that is you probably know we have a Victims Impact Panel that we send DWI defendants to and they can hear what the reality is of this kind of conduct and I think that it's important that victims voices are heard and I think that we deal too many times with things after the fact and with Statistics what the victims do is they put faces in the court. Instead of Statistics. So I would say that it's an essential part of restorative justice and that the pendulum is coming back to where we're getting Fuller victims participation (00:31:46) and I were to say I agree with that. It's improved our system. It's made us more sensitive and it's quite easy on those long Court days to forget what we're dealing with and whether it's a victim or many of the groups that appear in court. No, it makes us a better system. Let's move to the microphone. Judge, Frank and George Woolf. First of all, I say thanks for being here today and WS c n and members of the press what I am feeling knows incredible monitor age that I have felt for two or three years. And in what I went through in the court systems both in Lake County and in st. Louis County. I've been an advocate and been at least eight or ten different courtrooms. So I'm somewhat familiar and what I am very disenchanted with the term of Justice fair and equal treatment of men and therefore their families and children in domestic disputes involving domestic abuse and all the issues that come about (00:32:43) and I'm sick to death really of the false feministic views Pro lesbian anti-male (00:32:50) and therefore anti-family way of doing business that I've seen for the last four years and advocate in a 6-2 gesell district in other courts. In other words, I've seen women perjure (00:33:02) themselves under oath and nothing has ever done to him (00:33:07) many Ex-Wives commit goes to meters and felonies along I along the lines of (00:33:11) visitations and they're allowed to do so with the protection of the court but you let a guy (00:33:17) commits one (00:33:18) misdemeanor or gross misdemeanor and he flung into jail in this city in this County. (00:33:24) So there is no justice that I see are very little needs domestic matters. If you would enforce the laws against women the same way as you do against (00:33:31) men (00:33:32) then maybe there's to be some different results in less violence going on because this is really endangering Public Safety (00:33:38) and I just saw want to ask you put that to you and let me just answer to begin with the the last time and I've only been in Lake County once as I recall this year and the domestic abuse case that I handled. I removed the woman from the house. I returned the custody of the children to the man. Your perception at this point is probably different than the litigants in that case. And if that was the case, they might have an opposite view that I'm gender bias towards males but it points out with judge Frank said also and that is that it's not just the reality but it's the perceptions that are important if your perception is that man don't have an equal chance in the system that that hurts the whole system because what the realities are In family court issues. There's always gray areas is a very difficult area. It's one of the least sought after areas for court of assignments as you can well imagine if I get a DWI case and the scientists come in and tell me that the blood alcohol level was Point 215 or I have a speeding case and they have now radar and Laser that tells me it was seventy nine point eight miles per hour. Those are pretty black and white areas when you take a case on that looks for the quote best interest of the children unquote and you have people high on emotions and of opposite positions. I guess it's real hard to to think that they're going to come out of the process one or the other very happy. And this is why we've emphasized alternative dispute resolution. And in your case, I would guess that if you to five six years ago whenever it was had gone through a process where you were There wasn't a winner and a loser the two of you help fashion how you're going to divide your parenting because that's the bottom line. I think you'd walk away from their both of you with a better flavor better taste than they have somebody dictate to you. Here's the way your life is sure and I'm very sympathetic because I have children myself. And I know how there's probably nothing more important in the world to me and if I lost my children, I'm not going to be very happy with the system responsible for my losing the children. So I hear what you're saying and I think I take it very (00:35:59) sincerely real quickly. Look at the last question. I appreciate that your comments is then is there any connection between when you can't afford child support don't pay your child support, why is it Court then turning the other way when a woman denies visitation of the father. I didn't think that was supposed to be allowed in the state of Minnesota, but it's (00:36:18) ordinary. I don't think it is and I factors criminal statutes as well as civil statutes that prohibit that and I don't think any of the 15 judges sit back since only two The 15 are women. I don't think they sit back and think let's be naturally bias towards females. Let's look at Mother's getting all the rights and Father's not getting the rights. I'm more concerned quite frankly with both parents having not only the rights but the responsibilities because one of the trouble we have right now, the broad public is too often. We are required and we pay for parents that can't settle their differences or won't raise their children and responsible method and the general push on the welfare reform right now is pretty much that we don't want to raise people's children. I think parents and grandparents are the strongest an extended family members are the strongest foster care system we have and I hope that everybody understands that being a father is just as important as being a (00:37:15) mother If I made it this gentleman in the end the the last question in the last month, I've gotten well, I get lots of mail but two letters after a family law decisions suggested that that I was biased for the man against the women to other letters came in saying the reverse. I don't believe either was true. But is it possible that I made a mistake? Yes. If you feel strongly in any case that the judge has abused his or her discretion or they have made a mistake whether you feel it was motivated by Background by us or something else, even though appeals are expensive and long. There are some remedies if you feel strongly that the judge has aired for whatever reasons and I when I get contacted as chief judge on cases making allegations against another judge. That's the first question I have is well, did you appeal a case? Because there are certain rights you have there that that are taken from you if certain amount of time Runs Out That's true for anybody in the room. So. (00:38:20) Thank you will return to the mic and a second. Let me share one of the written questions again on the impact of victims rights on the criminal justice system. What is the the impact of victims rights? (00:38:32) Well, if I could just cover the Waterfront one minute or less whether it's the impact of victims rights other private interest groups come into the court system women advocacy groups men. Advocacy groups the mat organization. It's my view but I speak for myself. I believe all those groups have made the system made a better more open and it's a constant reminder us just to be very careful as we go forward. And so I think as long as balances used all of these groups have made the system better and to the extent it hasn't it's the judges responsibility (00:39:14) if I can just add also Bob. I think that one of the impacts victims rights has had The system is it's important in directing the fashioning of Remedies and the penalties I can tell you this a lot of people talk about criminal offenses being quote against the peace and dignity of the state of Minnesota. And that's the way our charging document reads. That's true and maybe 1/10 of 1% of all cases. In other words, if it's antitrust or price fixing or large environmental pollution case most of the crimes that I deal with are very very personal things their one-on-one situations and we have victims that are heard out there and we have to have remedies and I don't think any of the victims that I've dealt with in the past 18 years feel much better about their damages and what they've suffered because somebody is having to pay a 10% surcharge on a fine or have a certain minimum mandatory fine that goes to the corridor has certain number of days in a treatment program or goes to jail for certain number of years while that may help them feel that the system takes seriously the offense and we send Go away to prison that doesn't undo the damage. They have if a lady has to go to rape counseling if she has to move from her apartment because she's afraid if a guy changes jobs because he's embarrassed or whatever. There's all kinds of after effects that go on and we have to be able to address a system that tries to make the victim whole if not whole do a better job than we have been doing. So I think in the future we're going to see a correction system that moves hopefully more towards a restorative justice model Also. (00:40:47) Let's go to our next question or at the microphone. (00:40:49) I would like to address the forms Panna and the question that I have concerns juveniles and the system and I am presently a student at UW s and I'm seeking to enter the juvenile field in a preventive kind of position versus after the fact they've been through the system and I believe through the through the discussion we heard (00:41:20) Heard (00:41:20) you had touched a little bit about some of the measures that seem to be coming up around our area and I'm wondering is there anything else you could advise that would be feasible to look into perhaps as a student on some of the courses or what you should be doing to do. Well the whole juvenile areas, you know, there's not a a crime problem in America right now. There's really two crime problems. One of them is the general rise in property crimes and the other is the dramatic rise in juvenile violence, and and that's a whole program onto itself. I can tell you if you're interested in the course and what we're going to do we have to look at the Juvenile system right now. We got to face the hard reality and fact that the formative years of children is ages 129, not the 14 15 16 17 year-olds that we concentrate right now in juvenile court and while we're on it. I think we have to realize too that we have to start dealing with fewer. German children and I'll tell you why if you hold all other factors commoner constant including income including ethnicity you are going to find that children and especially boys that are raised in single mothers homes are more likely to do poorly in school to experience emotional problems to experience physical problems and to get in trouble with the law. And the reality today is being born out of wedlock is an early admission to the underclass. And so unless Society wants to address those kind of issues. I don't think you can just look to the juvenile court and those doggone juvenile court judges and say why aren't you know, we're going to do something in your area Child Development certainly is areas that I would take courses (00:43:08) in. Briefly I give you a laundry list T because I didn't get to these teaching parenting skills to teen parents teen parents programs have to start focusing on not only parenting but education and the role of dads recognizing a teen moms are coming increasingly from multifaceted abuse and train the service provider including Social Services to Value both support the school systems in their efforts that there were many are doing to teach non-violence personal responsibility and conflict resolution classes. And there's many there's a collaboration for example in Duluth non-aryans. It's called teen crimes and Community prevention education program between Arc and some of the school districts. If we do those things they all have to work with the juvenile court and they all feed into one another as far as I'm concerned. Thank (00:44:02) you. Let me go to one of the written questions. I'll read this word for word. Do social services and county attorney's think taking children away from Mother's or Father's a game and not looking for what is right. It seems when I listen to these attorneys of the county. Their position is to win the case for social services not what is right and it asked to please comment. Well as I indicated my bias earlier, I guess parents and grandparents and extended family members are the most important foster care system. We have we are at a point budget-wise where we cannot afford a lot of out-of-home placement on the other hand. I got to tell you also that we can't afford to keep young children in bad homes and we can't be family preservationists at all costs because the costs are great and I'll tell you what the costs are. We have wonderful leadership in our Northeast area in terms of law enforcement and in but I think she RC Bo I think the chief of police got Lions Sheriff Gary Waller been Skiing locate and they'll tell you all one thing and that is this 650 Rule and that means six percent of all juvenile delinquents commit 50% of all of the major juvenile offenses. And so where we focus things in terms of families are very important because what these repeat offenders have in common go back to the families if we can keep children in homes with Mom Dad or grandparents aunts and uncles it saves us all money and it's better for everybody and I think grandparents rights is growing in Minnesota. I think that's a good Trend but I'll tell you that most third grade teachers can tell me with about a 90% accuracy who the repeat delinquents are going to be later on in life and they have about eight characteristics. They have criminal parents off and they live in cold unemotional families. They have a low verbal IQ. They do poorly in school. They use alcohol at an early age. They have an emotionally flat personality, but they're very impulsive they reside in poor situations. And so we get back to incompetent parenting and that's the true cost that you the general member of the public have when we keep children too long and bad homes, but in terms of what we ought to be doing in terms of child welfare, I think we have to recognize how limited we are. We can't do everything. We can't make some dysfunctional families functional. We can't make some parents appropriate pearance. We have a lot of incompetent people. We do a better job in Minnesota screening out and teaching and Licensing drivers. Then we do to be a parent most of our young parents. It's a matter of biological accident. So we have some real ways to go in that area, but I think that most of the attorneys and social workers hopefully understand that the answer cannot be removing lots and lots of children. And we don't have the money to do it (00:47:12) does the adversarial system bring out some of this win at all costs to the extent that the best interest of the children sometimes gets treated the secondary or lost. Yes. Only speaking only for myself. I think we do have to change some law. So it makes it easier to say absent outright danger the Child leave the children in the home work with the children to home with home-based Services. I would like to think there's a trend in that direction and if you're not going to leave him in the home, then measure the impact on those children of pulling them out and putting them back mentally mostly developmentally and I don't think we're doing as good a job there as we should be. (00:47:51) Yes. I'm relying and I'm with teamwork for justice out of Duluth and there's policy from the range that's here today tall. So I'll come ten percent of the time the woman the man gets the custody of the kids 90% It's the woman who's the better parent the man or the woman Second question is when you do remove a child and you put her in or ham and a foster home, how come nobody bothers to check out to see if there's a sex offender living with a 1/4 of a mile from that foster home or pass home? In regards to the gender issue. I don't know what the statistics were show in terms of placement. I would say this one of the factors we cannot consider by Statute in our findings relevant evidence is what the gender is of the proposed parent. I can tell you this everybody that comes into my court is of one gender or another and their of one ethnic Identity or another that's just the given that comes through the door room in my own observations and they're very unscientific. I can say that in a lot of the cases. The mother has been the earliest to bond with the child and the mother has been the one that's been there in the lot of the formative stages of the primary parent as we talked in the early stages, and I know that I'm a dad myself and I know what a tough job that is being a dad, but I know also the dads can do remarkably well jobs, and I have a number of cases. I feel very comfortable. However that best interest analysis comes down. The number of other factors of awarding children to the father. In fact before I left here this morning and yesterday with my law clerk. I finished the findings on a very hotly contested case in the people will get it this week and they'll know that the father's getting the children. So it's real hard to see in a particular case G. I didn't get it. And if you're feeling is the courts of gender bias, then you're going to be able to interpret that either way female can say if it's a male judge these gender bias and that's why I didn't get it. If it's a dad they're going to say the courts just favor the women and again, I think that there's enough other people involved in the child custody issues that if judges just by themselves were purely gender bias, it would sure stick out and you'd be able to you'd be able to see that your other question though in regards to the sex offender living within a quarter-mile. That's certainly something that I would be concerned with. If I was the placing judge. We don't know everything about proposed foster homes. We only recently started the sex offender registration requirements in Minnesota and a current case pending between before me right now is in fact charging somebody to fail to register or moved without probation knowing that so there's no guarantee that it released sex offenders not going to be living down the road in your block at some point in not only won't you know about it, but nobody in this system including social services or the foster parents Social Services doesn't know about it. (00:50:58) We don't compile statistics. Although they'd be public we could get them for you in men being awarded custody versus women. The only thing I would say is frankly. I've ordered a both and the big much bigger problem in our court is not men asking for cussing at getting it but an increasing allegation of interference with visitation and relationship rights is a much bigger issue. Go ahead. (00:51:26) Good afternoon. My name is Suzanne Guru named a member of the white Earth band of Ojibwe. I am also a single mother of four children proud single mother. I would like you to ask I'd like to ask you about the racial bias task force and What is it doing to cut down on some of the racial bias with Native Americans and the the Judy dirt the Jewish jury duty and stuff like that. All I know see I spoke in front of the racial bias for racial bias task force force for years ago at the state capitol someone on the task force took my case. I was a victim of a hate crime. They took my case withdrew. My plea took me to trial and I lost okay all I see the racial bias task force. I don't see them doing anything. But I just feel that the racial bias task force is just another buffer another another way to tell the people that they're doing something about the racial bias where I don't think they're doing nothing aware. I think so, I think things are getting worse. I'm going to try to answer your first question in regards to the race by his task force and I'll announce the chief dancer do because he's on that but in terms of what we're doing in regards to jury duty, I will say that in my County Carlton County. That's the only one I can speak for. We are trying to get more involvement of Native Americans on our jury. And in fact, we have a meeting on November 22nd at noon with the Fond du Lac band. We want everybody to feel that they are part of the system and that's how it gets strengthened. So that's concrete things that we're trying to do in my County. I can't talk for the rest of the nation select juries by voter (00:53:16) registration and I can answer that we have to us new system. We have voter State IDs and steady state IDs voter and a driver's license. We have requested in each district tribalist, and we're trying to negotiate that because as you might probably agree with their sets frankly a distrust of the of the system that they want each group. We've talked to want some assurances in terms of how we're going to utilize the the tribalist. We have looked at the so-called jury pool for the whole district and while that is representative if you define representation as comparing Racial breakdown in each County and district with how many people are in that pool of 7,000 that come up here from drawn randomly from a list. We agree. We haven't done enough. Ironically the task force has been criticized as too liberal because a lot of people say, well you keep saying there's all this racial Strife in Minnesota. We don't believe it if they weren't at those public hearings as you were so, you know, but where there's no question about it. We're trying to revamp for example criteria for presents investigations criteria for taking children at home because they are institutionally biased because of looking at things like length of employment length of residency. We I believe we've done more on this committee than many that I've worked on and it's under the new leadership of Alan Page in the Twin Cities what's going on right now, and we're just trying we've done two major things and we'll see what the Sure. Does this this next year? We have tried to establish a public complaint process for law enforcement officers when it's based upon race or gender because that has been lacking secondly there are layers on group and I know that's kind of a buzzword these days were citizens can come in and talk about the what the task force calls a funnel effect, meaning six percent of this country of this state have people of color 48% of our prisons have primarily Afro Americans Native Americans and that should be a wake-up call. I mean, there's no question about that. So but I would be glad to send you everything we've got and encourage your input. If because frankly you're seeing you're saying this is all window dressing. That's what it is and I don't (00:55:44) believe this frustrating and I guess finally what I'd like to say is I'm probably here speaking on behalf of all Native Americans that aren't here because a lot of Indian people they don't Leave there's Justice. They don't think there's Justice out there. You know, they don't think they got a chance and disadvantaged people and minorities poor whatever but I know I know for a fact we don't even have religious freedom. How could we have Justice and with that? I just would like to say thank you for offering allowing me to speak and I would like you to send me all that information stay involved. I'd encourage you to stay involved. Oh, yeah, I definitely I'm forming Diane Olson a defense committee, and so they better be ready. Thank you.