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Simpson is charged with murdering of both his former wife, Nicole Brown and her friend. Ronald Goldman will conclude an astonishingly long and highly publicized criminal trial The Traveler seems to have blurred the line between television drama and real life turning into one gigantic Mega series with the Glamorous characters and convoluted subplots today, the captive audience Peaks the jury renders its verdict and they will do so based on some evidence thatTeraflex modern serology and others a very modern DNA testing, but essentially meaning of the jury itself is very very old venerable institution it is it goes back to weigh before this country was founded and into the common law in the days of of ancient Great Britain really and it's served us very well. Although this trial has raised a number of questions about a jury the jury system and whether it needs to be tinkered with or more less abolished in Great Britain, in fact only about 1% of the cases ruled on a rolled ruling by judge has these days by juries these days joining us from Los Angeles Rich from the courthouse is NPR's Renee Montagne has been covering this truck and when I can you tell this is the jury in the courtroom at speak. We just got a heads up on our intercom here to the effect that the judge is sitting down. In fact, I'm watching him sit down in my own Court monitor here and looks like we're going into the the big moment. Maybe I should let youBe hearing shortly you actually I believe that we'll be hearing a judge Lance Ito right now. Good morning. Cancel. by the record to reflect there earlier this morning at 9 to court met informally with counsel here in the courtroom because there are too many lawyers to go into Chambers this morning for the purposes of discussing notifications to the jury's jurors regarding their rights of privacy and the interest of the news media to interview them or speak to them following the delivery of the verdict in court here today for the cord distributed to the parties copies of the questionnaire that has been distributed to the jurors and also the notice to them regarding confidentiality under 237 of the code of civil procedure and those To question ears have been returned by the jurors. They have uniformly indicated their desire that they're Publican few minute private information or remain confidential native also into the indicated to the court unanimously a desire not to speak to the attorneys included after the conclusion of the trial and not to speak with the news media either. All right counsel. Is there anything else we need to take up for invite the jurors to join us? Buy Deputy Travis and George, please. Judge Lance Ito saying that the jurors have requested them to maintain their privacy not to meet either with the lawyers after entering Everett it normal to speak with the news media and that he has invited them the dreidel enter the courtroom and in the moment, we should hear from the foreperson of the jury of what may be either called them Adam for women or also. Add your number one and Georgia Line Zito. I will be saying that to me now or Renee. Are you still with us in Los Angeles? Maybe we just like and follow the same as soon as it cuts back down to the judge. I'll I'll stop by briefly. Most of them are women and I'll say this profile to a but I will say I noticed in the last weeks of the trial and I think this is actually been building since the spring For Better or For Worse during that. All the brouhaha about the jurors and all that, you know, the controversy stood within the the jury and an unrecognizable when you took at stores and and listen to them afterwards you you would know that they had entirely different sketched entirely different pictures of what was going on with him that Jerry the jurors that and I was just going to pay for better for worse. It seems like the sort of didn't fit in or among the jurors who were bumped their videos who would argue that that's not the best way to go. But in any event, this is a very cold during that seems to really like Good morning. Again, Lisa Gilman. By mrs. Robertson, would you do you have the envelope with the seal break box place? I would you give those two deputies per hour. And would you return those two are four persons your number one? 5 and 4 person. Would you please open the envelope and check the condition of the verdict forms? OJ Simpson is looking intently at the jury. He had one kind of a tight closed-mouth smile. He Slipped Away now or person you've had the opportunity to review the verdict forms, are they the same forms that you signed and are these in order? Why would you hand those please a deputy trimmer? And you have signed and dated those ready forms indicating the jury's verdict. Thank you. Mr. Simpson seems almost Restless in his chair. Johnnie. Cochran is lean back with his hands almost in a prayerful motion. What they're waiting for? Is the announcement of the verdict in the trial that has been underway for more than eight months. All right, ladies and gentleman and the jury I'm going to ask that you carefully. Listen to the verdicts as they are being read by the clerk. Mrs. Robertson. Has after the verdicts have been read you will be asked if these are your verdicts. And I would caution the audience during the course of the reading of these verdicts. to remain calm and that any distressed if there is any disruption during the reading of the Britax, the bailiffs will have the obligation to remove any persons disrupting these proceedings. Primus is Robertson Simpson would you please stand and face the jury OJ Simpson Rises to his feet as do all of the attorneys are the people of State of California versus orinthal James Simpson case number be a zero 97211. We the jury and involved in title action find a defendant or orenthal James Simpson not guilty of a crime of murder in violation of penal code section 187 a a felony upon the cold Brown Simpson a human being as charged account one of the information. Superior court of the State of California County of Los Angeles in the matter of the people State of California versus orinthal James Simpson. We the jury in the above and title action find a defendant orenthal James Simpson not guilty of the crime of murder in violation of penal code section 187 a felony up on Ronald Lyle Goldman a human being as charged in count to of the information. We the jury in a boxing title action for her to find a special circumstance that the defendant or if they'll James Simpson has in this case been convicted of at least one crime of murder of the first degree and one or more crimes of murder of the first or second degree to be not true. Sign this second day of October 1995 r230 ladies and gentlemen of the jury. Is this your Burdick still say you one so say you all I counseled. Mr. Simpson. Would you be seated please have acquired the courtroom, please. Primus is Robertson. Would you please pull the drawers? an acquittal of OJ Simpson on all counts now they want one which is your Burdick. Turn number to S account one. Is it your birthday. Drew number 3's account one is your verdict your number 4S account one. Is this your Burdick number 5S account one? Who is this referred it to remember 6s account one. Is this your verdict your number 7s account one. Is this your verdict your number 8's account one. Is this your Burdick juror number 9s to count wanted to share Burdick juror number 10 at the count one. Is this your verdict juror number 11 as to count one is your verdict during number 12s account. When is your birthday. This is the formality of confirming. Once again that indeed is a Gerard's did indeed vote for in this case of verdict of not guilty on both counts. OJ Simpson acquitted of charges that he murdered both his estranged his ex-wife Nicole Brown and Ronald Goldman the young man working as a waiter at the matzaluna restaurant happened to be gasping you've heard in the background is the Goldman Simpson family. We can just conferred by her house her by her father parties agree to waive reading in the verdicts as recorded. Chicago the wave reading of the birds as recorded Miss Clark. Thank you. All right, ladies and gentlemen, I want to at this time take this opportunity to publicly thank you for the service that you've given to us the burdens that we placed upon you or enormous and I can't begin to express the debt that we owe to you for the time and patience and exertion that you've given to us during the course of this case. I will have an opportunity to meet with you privately later and I'll give you my private comments when we have a chance to meet. I want to caution you at this time so that there is as you know, intense media interest in this case. The news media will probably seek you out at your home or at your place of business. And I wouldn't pour that the news media act responsible responsibly to avoid harassing you or identifying you without your consent. Or otherwise causing you concern. Where do you wish to cooperate with? The news media is of course entirely up to you. However, I must warn you to expect the worst as far as that is concerned. We want to well, I know I share with you when expressing our thanks to the bailiffs the sheriff's department to our court reporters. Mix Miss Fox Amanda Olson. Tours of the research Attorney John Byrne, who's assisted us are Pepperdine law clerks Mister golovin this Carswell our media liaison. Haslett on her staff. And of course the jury commissioner Gloria Gomez and her staff or I canceled. Is there anything we need to take up before we get excused the jurors? Mr. Cochran? Well as a familiar sight in the courtroom judge Lance Ito the lawyers are approaching the bench for a sidebar conference at what we've just heard is the verdict of the jury that OJ Simpson is found not guilty and these Lanes of his former wife and also have Ronald Feldman and his son sitting in at the front of the courtroom behind the bar was crying deeply is really the only way to describe it head and hands weeping is a lot of weeping in this courtroom for different reasons that the families of the victims of this terrible crime and the formally accused now acquitted perpetrator was once again, I believe addressing the card room. Or is he and we'll be chatting with you shortly? All right. Thank you very much. And I'll see you all later. There. It is. Now. Let me tell you what we're going to do. Renee Montagne is at the courthouse in Los Angeles. I'm Robert Siegel sitting in for Ray Suarez who's away today the back tomorrow Nina totenberg joins me in Washington were going to be done shortly by several people have been following this case closely lawyers law professors who are familiar with the issues that is raised will be talking about it. Will also later on we taking your telephone calls first. I'd like to go back to the courthouse and to Renee reaction. Very was just happened. What did you say when one? Well, I'll tell you again we were to tell you about the crying you're crying came a lot of this weeping and crying came from OJ Simpson's family. Not just Jason is Nina just said his son who put his head in to his knees and wept but also his sister Shirley and Carmelita. His mother was sitting in a wheelchair. She's been there often but his two sisters. Are there everyday the one of them flies down from San Francisco week for 4 days a week. Just just a bit this truck. They all linked arms and and the judge is still speaking in the courtroom right now. What I can here in the back eventually Bailey holding some server. Next party press conferences. That's what we've been told. The defense. In fact will be giving its press conference in the court. So he probably jump into the O3 flea. I talked to Fred Goldman just briefly minutes before the verdict was read outside jumped into his arms crying when this verdict was read on Fred Goldman was optimistic that this morning and smiling and he's been so very unhappy these last few weeks is it looked to be that the trial would go against them? Because of course they believe OJ Simpson is guilty. He was smiling this morning and I guess because of the whole feeling too perhaps there might be guilty verdicts feeling pretty good at imagining their to also hold some sort of a press conference in obviously there they are their hopes were dashed and they're very I have a little bit Covering it long predicted a an acquittal or a hung jury, but by yesterday of work with this quick verdict, everybody flipped like a ship, you know over to the other side conferences today from the courthouse. We we intend to broadcast them here and I'll be part of this special edition of Talk of the Nation as I was saying many people in bird from what evidence has been requested yesterday to be re wed2b reread. Excuse me, that this would be a conviction they are awfully hard to read and predict the very hard to read and predicting. I have to say that I have never won a jury pool, you know that reporters start whenever there's a big trial going on, but it did seem to me yesterday. I think one can presume when there is less than 3 hours to take place before they reached a verdict. I thought yesterday it would be awfully hard to convince somebody to send them to prison for the rest of They're his life on the basis of a 3 hour delay in so little time that I confessed you that I could not other than the fact of what they were asking to hear. I couldn't see why the prosecutors were so optimistic and the defense lawyers were clearly scared to death Los Angeles John Shepard Wiley is a professor of law at UCLA in the former Federal prosecutor that he's joining us from Pacific Palisades, California, welcome to the program and criminal defense lawyer as president of the LA Bar Association, which I believe is with us my phone right now to tell if I'd like to hear from both of you some brief reaction to the verdict and the and to the remarkably brief deliberations on the part of the jury first a John Shepard Wiley, what do you make of it? It's a shocking and troubling verdict after such a brief time of deliberation. I think that this is a verdict that we're going to have to think about for a long time to decipher. It's not a simple message but it is a message that the jurors are going to be assistance and deciphering it right right away. They've decided to maintain their their their privacy and Deb and evidently not take part in media interviews today. It's been a historic function of the American Jury to bring into the least representative branch of our government the Judiciary direct democracy and one consequence is always been that Community Notions of Justice ultimately prevail. but in cases where there are two Corpses as victims. It's a stunning thing for a jury to reach a verdict like this in such a brief amount of time makes up its mind when it leaves the courtroom. It's every juror starts to make up his or her mind as the trial precedes no matter what the instructions of the judge. It's just human nature you start to evaluate Witnesses you start to see you a pattern on one side of the other you start to make judgments about people and juries have even been known to punish prosecutors and defense lawyers for wasting your time. And I I I cannot help but think that at some point this jury coalesced pretty much privately and did make up their minds that this was not a three-hour deliberation that it was much longer deliberation and that they thought for one reason or another the prosecution didn't have a good enough case. Well clearly Drew this long ago this group form common views of the case and when deliberating found that the decision that they had to reach was not a difficult decision. It was one that already resolved and that all resolved the same way. It is nonetheless true that there were so many items of evidence that had to be considered for any kind of a rational assessment of what happened that the brief Collective discussion was. It is very disappointing. Who is it criminal defense lawyer. We've heard A View From a former prosecutor. This is disappointing you find a cheering exercises of the jury system. I find it a shirring exercise of the jury system in the sense that we have the right to a jury trial in the jurors got the case and they arrived at a verdict. I agree with Professor Wiley. This is a verdict that will not be viewed as credible by many people and I think unfortunately because of the short time. I think unfortunately because of that we're going to be at least in California shifting through the Breather for the next few years because I anticipate that within the next few minutes some legislator in Sacramento will be introducing legislation and or somebody was to be writing an initiative to try to prevent this kind of how would they do that? How would they do that after the jury system how they pick the jury's what evidence is admissible because there's a lot of complaints about many things that happened in this case advocate here for a minute a great deal of the prosecutors. Big gun evidence that lay people thought was big cat gun evidence, they didn't get to put in because they didn't want to put it in and that's the Bronco chase that was their choice. Right? Google said he's going to justify for the next 9 months or just running for re-election on the other hand a great deal of the firm in material that we all know sitting outside the courtroom IE that he said he planted evidence and that he took the fifth was not known to the jury of the people believe that he's guilty and there's a great number that we were going to believe the system didn't work there either going to believe you can buy Justice if you're rich enough some more cynical made people may believe it because there were nine black people on the jury. That's why you got to quit it people will find their own reasoning in this because the fact that this deliberation was so short and I think that bodes ill for the criminal System in the future, but I'm concerned let let me just interrupt for a moment to remind all of that. This is a special edition of Talk of the Nation that a bit later as we were trying to weave in and out of whatever news conferences are held at the courthouse. We will be hearing from you. I number is one 800-989-8255. That's actually one 800-9890. Right now we're talkin with Gerald chalifoux who's a criminal defense lawyer in Los Angeles. And also it was John Shepard Wiley professor of law UCLA in the former Federal prosecutor. And what would you support by Professor? Would you support the very sort of changes that we've heard Jail jail if it's pressing some alarm at the prospect of The right to a jury trial is guaranteed by the US Constitution and people were dissatisfied with it. We'll have to change that document if they want to get rid of juries that's not going to happen. There's been a lot of discussion about changing the unanimity requirement in California. But this was a unanimous jury legislation was if it was a hung jury, they're going to be big demands for at least allowing one or two dissenting votes, but they didn't have any trouble with unanimity so I can sort of falls apart but my notes this trial is more like the Simi Valley verdict where that jury to reach the unanimous result, but one that was not given credibility by people who had seen the tape one more remark on this point from Gerald chalif, and then we're going to go back to the courthouse Michele if you were saying, It does prove. However that yeah, I think the problem really is if the jury doesn't tell us why they did arrived at this decision and everybody will place your own meeting and reasons into what they did. I think if they come out and say look we all thought he did it but they didn't prove it Beyond A Reasonable Doubt. Then at least we have an example of the fact that the system didn't work. I mean system did work in the prosecution didn't prove their case if they don't explain. I hope they do that. I think you're going to see in the next, you know few days everybody placing your own interpretation into it and using it for whatever purpose they want. I'm not clear on one thing is to judge saying he's not going to release the names of the jurors either. Let me tell you this media out here knows the names addresses and telephone numbers of every juror in front of every jurors house right now is a Phalanx of media. I don't think that's going to be a problem and I can't I I'm sure there will be some holdouts because I've been the unfortunate person standing out there on people's driveways at the one in the morning or getting into their house and holding the door closed with my foot to keep my colleagues at while I persuade some poor fellow that he really does need to come with me to do an interview. But but in the end I think yours will talk about this because they will feel they have to justify what they did. They figure is taking place. Hi Robert. At the scene is calm down a little bit when it is people there. Maybe that's three four hundred people out here who are all just listening intently on headphones radios could have cut the air with a knife and when they heard the verdict the crowd just erupted in cheers. People are are almost to the celebratory. There are obviously there are some people walking around not nothing too loud about it, but who were saying because evidence was there. I don't understand this. But right now I'm at the police are still the message still sending it in for the line where they spent all morning, but right now it's just kind of a fairly relaxed crowd a lot of people believe I think there was a lot of talk of stepped-up of police job today and I think a lot of people are we're just relieved by the verdict. Usual or an free O'Jays chanting huge War. Yes. So at least among the crowd gathered outside the courthouse. This was not a hanging crowd that these are people who were hoping for the somerset senior. They really thought that said he was guilty. There were a lot of people who spoke to who said they were hoping for an acquittal because they were worried about what would happen in the city if if there was a guilty verdict think that was that was some of it but he be supporters of outweigh the other right now love Virginia bigger. Thank you very much Virginia's reporting outside of the courthouse in Los Angeles where less than 25 minute. The guy said we heard of the verdict in the OJ Simpson murder trial the double murder trial of OJ Simpson was acquitted. I found not guilty of charges that he murdered either in the first degree or the second degree. That would be with premeditation or without either Nicole Brown Simpson's ex-wife or Ronald Goldman the way here from matzaluna restaurant to it seems was doing nothing more than delivering pair of sunglasses up to her home and happened to be at the moment there at the moment when she was killed his as he was what actually happened on that night. We well certainly hasn't been established by a quarter of court of law hasn't been well. It has been established that OJ Simpson was not guilty of the charge by Jerry he can never be tried again obviously on this charge their constitution says, you can't be tried twice for the same thing when must say that the OJ Simpson defense team put a huge amount of money at trying to find other scenarios and nobody ever took the bait. I should tell you that this is Talk of the Nation and its coming to you from NPR news. Support for Talk of the Nation comes from this another NPR member stations and NPR contributors include the Corporation for Public Broadcasting the John D & Catherine T MacArthur Foundation and Corwin, press is Sage Publications company books and journals for educators 1-800 for one school. This program is a production of national public radio W6 pressed or not necessarily those of NPR the underwriters where this broadcast station celebrating 25 years of radial Excellence. This is NPR National Public Radio. This is a special edition of Talk of the Nation. I'm Robert Siegel joining me in NPR studio in Washington is NPR legal Affairs correspondent Nina totenberg and we are talking about the OJ Simpson verdict will be talking about it all afternoon. The acquittal of OJ Simpson on charges of murder. We are a joint still in Los Angeles by are two legal experts John Shepard Wiley former prosecutor and defense lawyer Gerald Taylor for also joined in the studio right here in Washington right now by Thomas munsterman is director of the center for jury studies at the national Center for state courts. That's in Arlington, Virginia. Just outside Washington Mister Monsoon is also the author of managing notorious cases a book on point of formal jury deliberations, as a sign of the jury system has has worked well or the sign that it's in need of repair. Oh, I think that the the fact that came to a verdict agree or not that we had the greatest fears of long deliberations of great problems as Nina said thoughts of going to 19 Animas verdict in that sense. I think it worked does every case have to take this long the amount of money. That's there's a lot of things that the trial of the century or the trial it lasted a century from what you've looked at. Another case is whether the jury is able to take on board evidence for such a long time or whether there's some point early on in the case. When did I decide I've had it. I'm saturated with information about this event. Will he was a jury that had an innovation they could take notes. Think about the number of courtrooms today with yours could not take notes in the think of a case of this link. Will they couldn't take notes the judge mentions your notebooks. They've been keeping notebooks of materials. Cases in California such was not the case here, but I think here is a lot of evidence. Is there a case to complex with a jury? I don't know maybe cuz it takes too long for the jury. I think the stress of it that these jurors been put under throughout this case the sequestration of very very difficult and I was I think we're all feared that all of that stress would just be exacerbated. If we had no a long journey that was very divisive. You know, I sense from the other two gentlemen who were joining us in this segment the great sadness at this verdict almost have personal sadness and obviously they didn't know that the victims or the accused but I take it that knowing evidence as they normally see it. They thought this was a lot of evidence but you know it Pros always come to cases where you expect one verdict in the other verdict happens. I mean, it happens to reporters. It happens to lawyers, and I'm Do you think the system worked other than the fact that they reached a verdict think so I think the boys I think that remember we have all I've been watching it through very very little me. I was trying to think how many hours of actual testimony in the courtroom. Did I watch over these months? It's very little I catch a bit on the news. I catch some reason the newspaper people say things we haven't been there the people have been there been very few notes 12 jurors certainly were there through the whole thing. So I think that will we see reforms will we see changes based on this maybe unanimity? I don't know what to you think that most lawyers prosecutors judges are for the first time seriously thinking about doing away with sequestration and maybe cuz I really have wondered whether we might have a case of the Stockholm syndrome here where the jury identified with the victim in the victim in this case is the guy was sitting there in the dark for a year infected is avoided every this was the first jury sequestered in Los Angeles is Charles Manson twins. Years ago so it isn't common. It's common once I would not even common tooth is sequestered during deliberation, but to deliver sequester from opening statements is just got to be very very difficult. And I think that everyone does because of all the problems. I mean whether it's food weather is conjugal visits weather at security. You just avoid sequestration. Renee Montagne is going to finish once more from the courthouse in Los Angeles or that you thought that the process of eliminating jurors and replacing them with alternates was your process of of shaking outside of the ones who didn't fit in but that did this Jerry was what was a cohesive jury in part because those you weren't cohesive eventually left the jury of this transcript of jury interviews, but that came about really extraordinary interviews that came out in the spring show that in fact those who are on either side real hardcore are you haven't showed me anything types? And and then a couple including of guy by the name of Michael Lots who went on to write a book a couple work, you know boy opening statements to this fellow Michael Knotts. Yeah. I was just going to call him. He said he was he was he came in thinking OJ Simpson probably wasn't guilty an opening statements by the prosecutor's convince them that he was he said he had a sick feeling in his stomach all of those people were off the jury and what I was trying to say before the verdicts were red was that, you know watching the jury this past summer and I've been the last few weeks. You got a feeling of a jury that they like each other that wanted to get along that that had wanted to agree and I heard mentioned that the possibility of crap that are pre deliberations. I'm not sure what form of those would take his people were prisoners, but you don't function like but they shouldn't would have been able to get together and more than groups of twos or threes and talk quietly without bailiffs hearing them, but on the other hand, I think there might have been impacted a minimum. The lines of rolling eyes and nudging you'd see that in the jury box. Not a lot of facial expressions, but you'd see people reacting to evidence and testimony in a way that suggested that they were kind of making some sort of communication among themselves and and as fast as it came in a mentioned earlier, she was putting believe that the guilty verdicts to come out of that kind of speeds can come out of that speed. My impression was it when the jury walked into the Reeboks date, they should have all new without having to have set it all together those twelve people what they were going to come up with and as it turns out, you know, everyone's surprise today, but wouldn't have been to everyone's surprise last Friday that mean that's how this case isn't my Friday, you know, not guilty and by last night it was guilty and the rest of the world people who are hard to predict. Acted in the Innocence. I don't know it was in unison. But at one point they dressed in black to get back the security detail that they liked who they thought it'd been disciplined in properly. So it was in some ways it was them against the world them against the judge. They were telling the judge in September you get us out of here. We are we want to quit because we have business we have life to get on with it was them against the judge them against the lawyers them against the establishment picking who's going to guard them and in the end they served each other pretty well in the sense that they came to a very quick and and apparently easy verdict. They'll go ahead. Yes. I was just going to say that against the establishment pushing her weight around and getting the guards dismissed and that's your herself was dismissed a little bit later. But the funny thing that was a hard to read they were very impassive when they were when they were listening to the other I would say, you don't people talk about it being such a rush at the end and I've heard a lot of talk about the jurors. Just wanted to get out of there. Can honestly they did make up their mind a long time ago which you know, which could have been at certain amount of Doubt obviously with this a long time ago and they could never shake it could have been over probably in the first week. He has a defense case. Let me ask the experts and and yes, let's turn to a John Shepard Wiley and Gerald Taylor. And the question is this if we take the fact that the police were not believed in this case basically that firm and the Furman turned out to be a kind of Liesel witness and we take Ruby Ridge to look someplace else and we take even something as insignificant as George Stephanopoulos being charged with leaving the scene of an accident only to find a few hours later that he not only didn't leave the scene of the accident his car literally. Couldn't get out of the space. I begin to wonder whether law enforcement isn't in a great deal of trouble. It's in that it's not so much the criminal justice system, but that it's law enforcement and the people are increasingly inclined not to believe policemen when they testify in that it means real trouble and it's not just trouble for the police. It's trouble for an ordered Society. What do you what's your reaction to that? Four Seasons is a fairly unique voice of the relay. Felician the citizens citizenry primarily because of what's happened to you over the last twenty or thirty years, dating with the Rodney King incident and the makeup of the jury because of where it was tried and I'm not sure that the what you say, which is probably true in some areas of people are more skeptical would hold true in the same way. If this case has been tried in Santa Monica have a different jury panel with different life expectancy life experiences. And then you'd have the minority Community saying it was all rigged. Right what I was trying to say before in when you talked about sadness in her voice my sadness was not at the fact of what the verdict was because I think that the system works and the jury arrives at a verdict my sadness was distracted because they arrived at it so fast, it's not going to be viewed as credible by the majority of the people who thought he was guilty and I just think they had they spent more time and express reviews about it and come out and say we really Either we thought he did it but we created it was a reasonable doubt or we didn't believe the scientific evidence. At least people would say, oh that's reasonable and in an understandable, I'd my sadness was the fact that I think we're going to have a verdict and we're going to be stuck with for a long time and people are going to use it to make Mischief. I'd like to hear John Shepard Wiley account for the sadness in his voice right now has a former prosecutor. Would you have regarded this case as a very good one one that you should have one with given the evidence that you had or no? It's never a very good case when one of your key Witnesses Turns in the trial into a gigantic liability and you have to begin your closing argument by apologizing for that witness. The Fuhrman tapes are a terrible blow to law enforcement in this country. There are thousands of cases that depend on the word of a single police officer against a defendant and in those cases future jurors, as long as the name of Mark Fuhrman is remembered will be thinking to themselves. Is this officer another Mark Fuhrman someone with a mask that looks attractive but that conceals a a line vicious human being that's what Mark Fuhrman revealed himself to be Beyond any doubt. But do you really think you really think that this Jerry which which came to acquittals in a day indeed would have decided very very differently if the trial had ended through through August before we heard the types of my for a minute. It was a joy that might have brought in a convictions in I have no way of knowing for sure, but it is certainly true that there were a lot of pieces of evidence in this case Mark Fuhrman was a disaster for the prosecution in that disaster will last a lot longer than just this one case. Mr. Challiss does this make defending a client in Los Angeles or first thing go investigate the cop and see if you can find anything that he's ever said that they might be involved in court and see if there's disparage the race of the defendant has some kind of vacation less angels for there scientific evidence you now has a defense lawyer now almost required to be viewed as competent to attack the crime lab because of how badly they were portrayed in this matter how badly they seem to have acted their sloppiness and some of the other things I did, I think that you know that they certainly caused the people in Los Angeles to be exposed. This case is God's people supposed to the inner workings of the scientific investigation of the Los Angeles Police Department and how how inaccurate that could turn out to be a reminder to all of you at Did I number is one 800-989-8255. That's 1-800 989 talk. This is a special edition of Talk of the Nation and we like to hear from you and I just like to ask one question of the Bell last confession Wiley, why is it that in this case? The Los Angeles County district attorney could have prosecuted this case as we heard you have to add Rotel up so early in Santa Monica, but decided to prosecute it elsewhere and had a different jury pool. What how does Los Angeles work that that discretion exist with it with a d a I think the DEA wanted to make use of the grand jury system which operates downtown rather than go without a grand jury investigation on the west side and I praise Gil Garcetti for that decision, which apparently was made strictly on the merits and without the kind of strategic or tactical jury pool manipulation calculations that others have actually faulted him for not employing and he called it to straighten. And that has been an important factor in this case. The draw is countywide everyone in Los Angeles is in the pool, but it is subject to the distance to the courthouse. So you tend to get people around the central Courthouse to live in central Santa Monica would have given you a different Bullseye approach to the jury different catchment area for juries when you're depending on where you choose it is still starts with a countywide draw if we have a lot of little counties with in Los Angeles with a very complex we're going to be what we have now is a 20-mile room and we have like 13 separate Superior Court districts and people are called who live within 20 miles of the particular courthouse and that would materially change the Jury has a trident Santa Monica. You would not have been a Triumph for the criminal justice system to have OJ Simpson convicted by a predominantly are all white jury. We're going to turn first to Susan in Columbus, Ohio, Susan, what did you think of these verdicts? Why? And had a privilege to privilege but I was privy to a lot of our conversations about certain events and their employment and I've always thought that if I wanted to frame somebody or do something like that they sure as heck kind of all the means to do it and you were never impressed with the prosecution's case of a trail of blood or where was OJ Simpson know I gave him the benefit of the doubt but we're really and you know, this has been an ongoing thing in our family as well as everyone else is in America. Probably my husband thought he was guilty from the beginning and when we watch the video tape the other night with The defense putting on their closing arguments that convinced him of what was innocent or guilty of the room is with the socks. Not on the rug Hood. I'm just so many things that added up but when he saw that he said not in his conscious, you know, not consciously could he can fix somebody after someone seeing something like that. Your whole household was very much everybody believed. He was your husband was a convert in other words the last 3 or 4 weeks. Lego I mean everybody has their own feeling but I know our office is completely stopped. We we all turned into television. I've had you guys on the radio and you know, I just really glad I was so nervous. My heart was in my throat for him. I can imagine what he was feeling but I just know it's not because I have anything personal and white, you know, I'm not throw anything or prejudiced or anything like that, but I just seen it happen too many times and for the joy not even know about some of the stuff and still come up with this kind of to ask. Mr. Munster in a question one of the new phenomenon in the last decade or so our so-called jury experts who helped both prosecutors and defense picture a sites usually been the defense that can pay for it. But in big important trials increasingly prosecutors are using I was told that in this case the prosecution did hire a tree expert and ignored some of his advice. And that in this case, the defense team was slavish in obeying the recommendations of the jury consultant, but my question is, yes You Can't Ban jury Consultants, but it does seem to me that they make pervert the process somewhat because if you can actually do scientific studies that show the people who eat oatmeal in drink orange juice are more inclined to conviction you were that's that's not what we we intended. Now the way to get a cherry experts is to not allow peremptory challenges not allow for challenges except for a good stated reason that a judge thinks is a good enough reason. What do you think of that is a proposition for future so-called reform definition of Shane already of the use of prime free challenges many have said we can put these folks out of business by doing that but I think the expertise is simply been transferred. We have lawyers who said I never liked Presbyterians are I never liked engineer's right now. Accountants, what we've done is taken that those homilies and transferred him to a little better database at end and let the consultant Supply it and whether there in the courtroom or whether they're training. Our lawyers are going to have an impact how effective they are remains to be seen one would say that one consultant in this case was very effective. No other was not and we don't know if what they proposed was doing it, but there's a lot of expertise whether it's an expert Witnesses, and I just look upon it as another help or available. But Prime 3 challenges are certainly being challenged number one 800-989-8255 and Brad in Fairbanks, Alaska. Are you there? Yeah, but what do you make of this verdict today? Well, I think that there is a tragedy here. We have to have two violent murders and no conviction. But I think if we keep in mind the fact that we have a jury who has come back with a verdict that that is based on the fact that it wasn't Beyond a reasonable doubt that Simpson did it if we exclude the fact that he was a celebrity. I think the real tragedy is that we that we got have an outfit the other police law enforcement people that I have a great deal of trouble keeping keeping certain elements out of their rank. Perhaps Beyond pay them enough parents. We don't order them but we we just seem to be having a lot more trouble with our law enforcement people and I think that's the real tragedy tragedy that the police would include among. Arrange the likes of Mark Fuhrman. That's right. That's what you're saying over and over again. Brad thank you very much for calling. We're going to turn out to Bob in San Francisco. What did you think about this product? Probably had the best view of the evidence and all and it's hard to second-guessing. But what I want to say is it seems to me that although they haven't expressed their reasoning seems like a good guess is that they decided it was very likely be there and we're here. So, what would I think that that sort of leaves for the rest of us to wonder about is why is it that the thumbs there's a great division where some people find it. So obvious that he did and I feel that he very well might have been framed difference that that runs very close to the to the color line in America when we start examining that we very well might find that it has its roots in real life experiences among domestic violence and other sorts of social violence and Awesome probably has something to do with the way we acquire and interpret information and the news and they ended we can do that very differently depending on what we experience in our lives and that might reflect a great extent to what what eye color is most of the media on The credibility of various sources of information and our lack of credibility, but the start of what the rest of us might want to consider rather than get all hyped up about whether it was a gross miscarriage of Justice being that none of us really were there and hopefully none of us watch the whole damn. Thank you very much for making that that hopeful statement. In-laws, am I? Delete? Are you there? Can you hear me? Where are you right now? Gather to you know to talk about the watch the verdict how they celebrating are they just fascinated? What's what's the reaction there? Everybody not verdict? Everybody scream for Joy. I have to tell you people had tears in their eyes. They were slapping high five and they were hugging each other. Everybody's here was so relieved about the verdict as they seem to be any way. We keep on hearing from Los Angeles that some people were relieved because this means that there won't be any any any disturbances location to buy a guilty verdict. Is that what you're hearing a rehearing people say no I'm relieved. They didn't frame a good man on this murder charges that that that's ridiculous. Why would we do this? We learn from our past few know and that there would be no reason to have any kind of civil unrest so that they kind of threw that out the window a lot of people that I talk. It was more a feeling of relief that that for one Justice was served especially for an African American man. Do you think the jury verdict is seen as exoneration of OJ Simpson or is it finally seen as a sort of final punishment for the LA Police Department? I think a lot of people are saying that it is a symbol and and and and it sends a message to the Los Angeles Police Department and people people in this neighborhood people in other parts of South Central Los Angeles say, it's a given the history of relations between the police and the community. We're going to go back to the courthouse because thank you very much my deleted back of NPR because defense lawyers are now holding a news conference. public information officer. Haslett public information officer of the Court who is Lee Bailey alien tacos reversing names as they friends lawyers introduce themselves Simpson jury, how are the children sisters and mother the defendant? And Miss Demetrius the Drake today. He always directs our paths and he's worthy to be praised. and at the outset Jason Simpson The oldest male child of OJ Simpson will read a statement from mr. Simpson and from the family. I want to Echo that I want to Echo that me and my family want to thank god without him. I don't know where we'd be. He's truly amazing father. Statement from a father. I'm relieved that this part of the incredible nightmare that occurred on June 12th. 1994 is over. My first obligation is to my young children will be raised the way that Nicole and I had always planned. My second obligation is to my family and to those friends who never wavered in their support, but when things have settled a bit, I will pursue as my primary goal in life the killer or Killers who slaughtered Nicole and mr. Goldman they are out there somewhere whatever it takes to identify them and bring them in I'll provide somehow I can only hope that someday despite every Prejudicial thing that has been said about me publicly both in and out of the courtroom people will come to understand and believe that I would not could not and did not kill anyone. My father will have more to say at later time. Thank you Jason from the family. We will take questions. I'll just make a brief statement and we'll take questions out there after I'm a half of the entire team. I just like to say how grateful we are for this this Verde cuz we think this verdict bespeak justice. We never wavered in our faith. We were always optimistic that optimistic event Optimus improved right? I'd like to just individually thank all of the team members everybody on this team play the great great part in this Victory. There's no question about it. We hung together in the tough times. We always saw this day coming and now it's here. We feel really good about it. I paid particular tribute today to drilling Demetrius the lady over my right shoulder who helped us pick this jury. We lost ten jurors. But yet we still had 12 who we felt did the right thing the other two people to our present that I'd like to thank our Barry Scheck and Peter neufeld. Could make it back from New York, but they're in there in there in newfields living room today watching this and we send our love and regards to them Mr. Simpson needs to say it's ecstatic want to get on with his life. And we are all ecstatic so we will take your questions. Became the fact could you comment on that? Yes, I like that. If you watch this trial, if you watch the arguments, then you know this idea of any jury nullification of the eye that we don't have the facts is preposterous in the opening part of my argument through a strategy. We devised with Lee Bailey. We said that if we could shatter the prosecution's timeline for the OJ Simpson could have committed this crime that that would be a reasonable doubt. That's that's even before we ever got to the socks the glove and I'm from everything else. So these pundits who make those statements don't know if they're talking about they haven't tried cases they're talking about this was a case based upon the evidence. And so that's all we're saying there was a reasonable doubt and when you see a trial that last nine months where the jury takes this. Of time they have gone to what we said that if you look at that time line OJ Simpson could not did not would not have committed this crime and I think that that becomes very clear. So I think it's a very important question. Johnny was there a point during the summation Journey closing argument that you were looking in the eyes of the jury and you knew something was telling you something that you were winning. It's always hard to say Joe but I mean I felt that they were very attentive for a tired year. They're very excited. And then one of the jurors got up and went out and when she came back she been crying and I thought that was pretty interesting and then they all start a lot of them took note to Edmond taking those before and I could contrast that with the other arguments. They they they took a lot of notes and I felt that was probably important. Johnny the germs went out for four hours right before this this trial there seem to be a lot of sadness among the Simpson family. Did you prepare OJ Simpson for a guilty verdict? You know, that's a that's a tough question. We never talked about a guilty verdict and that would have been our fault, but we just we were so optimistic. We really believed in this case and in OJ Simpson, and we talked on leaving yesterday and I got back to town last night. I told you 7 last night at 10 and you can only talk about going home and seeing his children. Text Mom and ask to see the parcc test money. Did you think it was a possibility for a guilty verdict was this one or two jurors had a question about the timeline and I talked to Carl about five times yesterday in a row from where I was and I want to know where they stop what they heard. They heard among other things that Kato Kaelin was seen about 10:49, maybe 3 or 4 minutes after those not just like I read in the transcript wasn't in 52 or 53 like marching one push it back in her timeline and I felt good about this. I felt it when you have to reach conveyor very confusing. You have the reread those who have a problem then say, okay. I've heard enough. They go back into the job. It's a question for you or perhaps one of the members of the family. I wondered what mr. Simpson is going to do today. Now that he's an ex defended where he's going and where is it talk about that because put security concerns. Jeffrey, but he's got to start all over again his short-term plans or is he going to stay in Los Angeles or you'll probably he's going to address all these things himself. Yes, mr. Cochran. You have said publicly that you believe race plays a role and everything. I'd like to know what role race played in this truck race play the part of everything in America and we need to understand that and then we stopped talking Kentucky and dodging from that will be better off now basically and this case I think that I'm a stamp want to race. It was introduced by this witness Furman the stuff about playing the race card is preposterous. It would malpractice a man has racist views in a case and a lawyer didn't pursue that anybody who says that doesn't want to try a case. It didn't know anything about anything so you have to pursue it because that's your job. So that's they introduce for me and then we dealt with it, but we choose to call it the credibility card. I mean we pursued his credibility on that jury instruction eyewitness wolfley false in one material Park. Can we destroy certain others for all we know they could have knocked out all the furman's and Mad Hatter's testimony so that it became very because they brought him he was their witness. We didn't call it. Johnny and Jason's opening statement. He said that OJ wanted to pursue the killer or killers in these murders once he gets out. Does he offer any idea or ideas as to who this could be? I'm sure we'll all talk about that and she has some strong ideas and we'll be talking about that and you'll probably learn more about that back in the days to come. With all due respect to the attorneys, I'd prefer hearing from some family members if they may particularly the women to their to my right. What was the last 24 hours like for you surely Carmelita? Arnelle Simpson mom would break down. The other ones would come together and lift them up and then the next one what break down so we were just all there for each other. but well, I was always in prayer. I knew that my son was innocent and I had to support them so many people all over the world and I know that prayer of the righteous prevaileth much and I believe in that and so sample, that's why I kept the faith and I have confidence in his representative yesterday was a difficult day, but there was a peacefulness or calmness for myself and I know with my my other family members were very strong family and we stick together and we were very prayerful and we just knew that no matter what was going to happen that guy was going to take care of us and we didn't really go once one way or the other but we just knew that God was going to take care of us and just knowing that that That we will get through it. Shirley What we? We knew when you know that someone is innocent. You are able to hold your head up high and that's the one thing that I family has tried to do during this whole trial is to carry our stuff with great dignity and to let the justice system do what it has to do. We knew OJ was innocent and we had all the confidence in the world and the team that was put together and we're just thankful to to them to OJ to all of you to all the people that's been so nice to us. We want you guys to know that we really appreciate the way that you have responded to us and the good and bad times and we want to thank you. Thank you. Thank you, and on top of this table is dancing a jig and I Yes, Johnny. Do you see this verdict returned is any referendum on the LAPD? I don't want to read a lot of things into the verdict. The man I think I take us to complement the District Attorney's office. They fought very very hard. This was a real heck of a trial believe you me. You saw lawyers go at it on both sides. It's hard to say because we haven't talked to the jurors. I do believe that. There was a credibility problems with members of the LAPD some of testify in this case in and I believe that probably has had some effect and I think we saw some other things too. And I hope that I hope that the coroner's office will get their act together citizens of LA County should demand that hopefully LAPD lab We'll do what's necessary to get up to speed we can we do we deserve better help with investigators will do better jobs in future cases helpful abide by the state law for state law says call the Corner immediately call the coroner immediately. Don't wait 10 hours. And I think there's a lot of things we learned in this case. I'd like to direct this question to Shirley Baker and arnelle Simpson. There are two small children involved in this matter who are currently in the guardianship of a family that believes that OJ Simpson killed the mother of those children. How are you going to put this family back together? You got it, babe. We got to take it one day at a time. And there's there's no answers because So much has happened. There's just a lot of mending and healing that needs to take place there and for me to answer I can't really answer that question. Cuz we just we have to take it one day at a time, but we'll do the best that we can do. I don't know. I don't know when we get to that will deal with it. I think you should always remember though. You have two families the Brown family and the Simpson family and we are two families and we have two children that we love and we're going to do what we can the very best for the children. Johnny I want to ask you what you make of the jury's Behavior over the past couple of days and especially today they refuse to talk to the lawyers. They don't want to explain their verdict to the public they came to court today dressed in exercise. We're very casually after we've seen them for 8 months dressed in suits to come to court where they trying to send a message where they being contemptuous of the proceedings that all I don't think so, I think they they they knew they were going to go home today your Sally I think they knew yesterday. They had to wait one more day. I think digital camo packs. I'm sure they're there their wonderful clothes that we saw during this trial were all packed away. I think they're very respectful Jerry. They were very professional. It is all he reported yesterday. You could not tell on their faces. How they how they had voted they were very professional I wasn't here yesterday and I look for different things I could tell today I could tell today was going to be all right for us. I felt I would love to somewhere down the road talk to them because they have they've got a really important task here I would like to do. Are concerned about the rapidity with which the jury came to his decision? There are those who say it appears as if it's impossible that they hadn't either reached determination on their own as the judge said not to do before they were supposed to or perhaps to talk to one another that it seems as if it just isn't possible to have reviewed this much material in this short. Of time. What are think of the movements of my colleagues want to respond to this? What I think is this when they went out on Friday remember that I was at the podium when they had a four-person already. I think this jury had a sense of who they respected and in fact Tracy Kennedy dvd one of my former George said last night that they always respected your number one. And so that probably is not a decision for me. I believe that based upon this point in the argument that this jury felt prosecution prove this case and it went all the way you talked to him that's going to be where they came down. If you didn't believe the timeline if you didn't believe it OJ Simpson have enough time to go. What is crime that he couldn't go upstairs change clothes, babe throw away all the clothes the gun that the knife the weapons the shoes and all that stuff Miss Clark gave them five minutes to do all that you think about that think about that reasonably and then try that into the circumstantial evidence is that reasonable determination? It didn't take very long. And if one or two people said, well, let's see what Allen park has it say on the timing then you have a bird. What you know. I haven't talked to him yet, but I think it may be a combination of both. I don't know. What are the interpretation of this case is going to be that if you are rich in America, you can get a good outcome. But if you are poor and then you the justice system will just run over. What is your reaction to that when my brother and sisters answer that question, but Iglesia Bob's really one. It's a it's an interesting concept and there's a lot of Truth to that that unfortunately and most places in this country people who do not have adequate funds cannot properly defend themselves, but it works both ways. In this case in this case our small group of lawyers that were put together from June 14th. We're up against the most intensive investigation probably in the history of Criminal Justice not only did the Los Angeles Police Department participate in this the Chicago Police Department the FBI Interpol. They brought in DA's from two different jurisdictions as well as 40 to 50. They had upwards of a hundred officers at any one time investigating this case and if we did not have adequate resources, we wouldn't have been able to come close to be proved to present all the crucial evidence that had to be shown if only This case had preceded based on a grand jury indictment with no cross-examination. We have been in a much more difficult position. So I think all in all we were in a position where they had enormous resources. We had limited resources and work very hard. Resources a defendant has they can never match the resources of the state and at this very moment as we talked Congress is debating cutting the funding of the Legal Services Corporation eliminating funding for the death penalty centers that provide the defense the indigents in death penalty cases. I think rather than talk about what you can achieve with with resources. We need to take a long hard. Look at how many defendants have to run this Gauntlet without resources and what precautions we have in our system to ensure that they too can achieve Justice. With all the false that you found with the coroner's office with the investigators with the crime lab with the LAPD.