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SPEAKER 1: Not only in our community, but communities across the country, Black leadership has become non-believable. Everyone accepted the trickle-downs the government was sending at one particular point. Everyone accepted puppet positions that actually held no decision-making capabilities or capacity. OK? So therefore, it's now time for new leadership. There's now come a time. Something old has to be new again. But the revisions are much different.

This time, we're not looking at the weapons factor. The weapons factor of the 1960s, which scared the bejesus out of Ronald Reagan, was only a symbolic ploy. But it was done very articulately. It was studied. It was studied how you handled this weapon, what you did with this weapon, all the way down. But when people equate weapons with revolution, it creates a terror factor.

Well, this was a very opportunistic time for J. Edgar Hoover to act on this, not understanding or making it clear that the only thing people wanted was a basic fundamental right to live in harmony, to be human beings and not be abused by a corrupt system.

SPEAKER 2: Well, then how would you say that the Panthers have changed since the strident, militaristic, separatist days of Bobby Seale and Eldridge Cleaver, for that matter? Are you a kinder, gentler Panther Party now?

SPEAKER 1: I'd like to say probably pretty much more a kinder, gentler Panther Party. And speaking for Bobby Seale, who I just met with recently in Milwaukee, Mr. Seale was one of the forefathers of the party. And his ideas were about also human rights, being a humanist. There basically came no such animal into the Black Panther Party or entity regarding racism until about the time of Eldridge Cleaver.

Once Huey and Bobby were down, a lot of people ran rampant with their own agendas. The original Panther Party was based on equality for oppressed peoples of all color to pull all people up to a plateau of self-sufficiency. It had to begin in the Black community because Black leadership was dead. It began to spread abroad. It began to spread with Abbie Hoffman's group, the Weathermen Coalition.

But it was always real questionable how it was whenever Blacks talked about self-determination, unity, and progression for all races, it suddenly was a terrorist issue. It was suddenly threatening. But we have the birthrights and many others who will stand there and scream how they would love to commit genocide, stand in public forum heavily armed to the gills, invite Geraldo Rivera to watch everybody crawl through the woods with rifles. But if we just open our mouths about self-determination in regard to all races on a human rights perspective, this is threatening.

SPEAKER 2: Probably threatening as well is your title, Minister of Defense for the Black Panther Party of Minnesota.

SPEAKER 1: Well, the ministries all fall into categories. And with the end of those ministries comes social sciences and political sciences. Ministry of Defense simply means that we have to advocate and speak for the people. We have to be, once again, even following where Mumia's plate took him. You have to be the voice of the voiceless. And in this city, as well as other cities, we have people of all colors living under third-world conditions.

We have people living at a subsistence level with below subsistence standards and means to take care of themselves, to educate their children. The questions have been raised, why are the gangs running rampant? You have a major problem when the children can sense that there's zero future factor. Most great civilizations have collapsed just because of that. They lost control of the youth, and the youth stopped believing in whatever system was in place. Here, you have it happening in America.

SPEAKER 2: Has it been difficult getting young Black men interested in the Panthers? Men who might otherwise be involved in gangs or who are certainly disenfranchised?

SPEAKER 1: No, it hasn't been. Because like this little brother right here, we've began working with a lot of the youth. Now we can't create a job for him every day, but he's part of a crew that goes through here. They pick up the paper. They deal with whatever they have to do. And they're all making $5.25 an hour. OK? This young man is 14. His other little brother, he's 12. And they'll come up and ask if there's work that can be done. And when we have the time, we have the funds, the resources and a job for them to do, it is given to them.

SPEAKER 2: Have young people said to you, listen, Sam, I've heard your spiel before, get out of my face, I don't believe you?

SPEAKER 1: So far, I would have to say I've never had that. I've never encountered that. I've never had anyone come on a negative basis because it's all based on self-respect and respect for others. I have so far never had anyone come that way.

SPEAKER 2: What do you offer young people in terms of an organization, in terms of strategy to improve lives?

SPEAKER 1: Not only to improve lives, to improve living conditions through positive ideology. When you can create positive ideology and you can take the youth or you can take the elderly or even the middle-aged and show them that there is a better way, this sticks with them because simply what you have out here is a million and one people who were never loved, OK?

No one ever took the time to embrace them and say, you've done something good. It's positive. Keep up the good work. I'm proud of you. These are things that many of us took for granted because we had that. But then we came into a generation where that was non-existent. Now we deal with the burden of that non-existent factor. So therefore, it's not only parenting. It's psychology. It's a lot of love. It's a lot of tough love, but so far it's working.

SPEAKER 2: I wanted to ask you. Is there a role for Black women in the Panther party?

SPEAKER 1: I would like to emphasize that there's a role for all women within the party. There is a role and an active role for all races in the party. None of refused. None are turned away. Strength in unity and force is in force of numbers. We welcome Black, white, Asian. We do not care who you are. Male, female, homosexual, bisexual. I don't care who you are. Whatever religion you are, you are welcome.

Basically, the only thing that we ask is your dedication to the people, number one. And number two, in a time of need for the people and standing up for the people, be there.

SPEAKER 2: What's your assessment of Black leadership today? It's almost become a cliche that there's a leadership vacuum in the Black community.

SPEAKER 1: There's more than a leadership vacuum. It's pretty much turning into a toilet because what's going on is the Black bourgeoisie have separated themselves from the true needs of the common people in the streets. Given an example, when the NAACP brought their convention here, not once did I see a delegation or a busload come down to Franklin in Chicago and address any of the needs of the people, introduce themselves, get out, shake somebody's hand.

It didn't happen in North Minneapolis. It didn't happen at Selby Dale. It didn't happen in Northeast Minneapolis. It didn't happen in South St. Paul, West St. Paul, East St. Paul. The bourgeoisie at that time, with this last convention, channeled and networked from inside of the convention center downtown, behind closed doors. And when the common Blacks or the common people that were suffering any form of oppression or political repression came by, the doors got locked.

Guards went to the door and everybody stood. And it was an us and them factor. See, the us and them factor no longer is acceptable. What's up, my brother? It's no longer acceptable for the simple fact, we can no longer have this bourgeoisie system where they are not contributing or trickling anything back down to the people that are suffering. The NAACP has been very complacent and very quiet. The Urban League has become ineffective.

The Urban League, instead of worrying about the needs of the people, suddenly took side with the system. They're pretty much equivalent with the Civilian Review Board that we have here for the police department. I won't criticize our mayor. But I only hope that if she is listening to this, that you can take constructive criticism.

And once again, come out here in the streets, come out here amongst the people. Hear what the needs of the people are, and force those county commissioners to do their job instead of the mayor doing the bidding of the commissioners. So the political ramifications of this are very deep, my man. Number one, it's not that we're asking people to go down to the courthouse and turn in your weapons because this is asinine, it's not realistic, or any of the above.

It doesn't need to be understood within the Black communities, the poorer communities, and the communities downtrodden across this country. A weapon is a means of not only collecting food, but of self-defense if a predator should storm your home or your sanctity or the security of your well-being.

SPEAKER 2: Do you carry a weapon?

SPEAKER 1: There are times that I have been known to carry weapons. There are times that I have been known to be a peaceful man. Whether of either is irrelevant. But the major consensus is if that thing is in a closet, if it is safely locked away, if it has a trigger lock on it, and basically it cannot get into the hands of a child. These guns have no business on the streets, OK?

I would be able to say one of the ways of bringing an end to the amount of guns that are on the streets is if the children and the mothers and the fathers and the survivors of some of these victims were to activate a class action lawsuit against Smith & Wesson, Winchester, Remington, I don't think you would find many guns out here in people's hands. The legislation would get very heavy because class action lawsuits mean lots of money paid out in reparation for the lives that have been lost.

You can't bring back the loved one, but it would make a symbolic factor that the people no longer will tolerate this. It's been well-known that in LA, Chicago, Minnesota, Tennessee, boxcars are left in railroad yards with the lock broken, where it's visible for you to see the manufacturer's name. Go over and take the weapons. The only problem is the weapons are defective. And if you shot at someone from this point to that corner over there, you would kill everything to the left or the right and you would miss the individual.

SPEAKER 2: So you're talking about stolen weapons?

SPEAKER 1: These are basically weapons that are put in position to be stolen. This has been going on for the past 10 years in America. Defective weapons that are to be shipped back to manufacturers are backed into railroad yards in economically depressed areas, where the young people can get their hands on them.

SPEAKER 2: Where does the responsibility lie within to address this issue, as opposed to suing gun manufacturers or talking about police oppression? At what point do people in these communities have to take on the problem themselves and do something?

SPEAKER 1: Well, I would say, my brother, every man and woman that's out there, every man and woman out there listening, it does not mean that you need to go out there and do something suicidal as well as get yourself killed. But if you can see a situation escalating, if you can see these young people out there gathering and the foul language is beginning to escalate, there's a critical situation about to jump off, it is important to go out there as an elder and begin instilling some wisdom in these young people about breaking it up.

Let's talk some conflict resolution. 90% of the time when this is done, the whole situation de-escalates. They'll walk away. They'll embrace one another. You'll even hear from these supposed little teeny weeny supermen. They'll say to one another, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to disrespect you that way. OK, fine. We've prevented a killing. It is up to each and every male and female in those communities, wherever you are, to begin getting out there and making a difference in the community.

It hurts me in my soul when I drive up anywhere and I see a young male or female, regardless of color, laying in the road, bleeding to death, and all of these grown adults talking about how it happened, who did it. Oh, that's a shame. Police ain't going to do nothing. And everybody stands there la-di-da-di with their hands tied, when you could have simply went out there and you could have intervened. You could have said something. It may have made a difference. It may not have, but at least you tried.

SPEAKER 2: People don't want to get embroiled though in what they believe is gang warfare.

SPEAKER 1: Well, you have to understand something. Once again, we can no longer be individuals on an oppressed people's basis and we can no longer separate ourselves. And you have to also understand the anatomy of a gang. Three to five people come into a city. They institute a few little sporadic acts of madness. They begin having the younger people think that it's cool because of what they did at that time. The youth begin latching to them.

They don't come 10,000 strong. They don't come 2,000 strong. They come in a group of five. They come in a group of three. Oh, and so-and-so's car was broken. There were shots heard in a neighborhood where shots have never been heard before. Oh my God. The people operate on fear factor. That's what the whole damn country is operating on, fear factor.

And it's time now to stop being afraid. Get out there. Make a difference. Do something positive. Stand up. Be noticed, be recognized, and take responsibility and have some accountability for what goes on in your community.

SPEAKER 2: I guess in hearing you describe the spirit of the Minnesota Black Panther Party, it shouldn't surprise me that you're going to be participating in a community walk in Loring Park on Sunday with a whole number of different organizations, including the police.

SPEAKER 1: Well, let us put it this way. When you do not grow from mistakes that are made in the past, you are subject to repeat those mistakes. From the Black Panther platform, we have no intentions of repeating any of the mistakes from the past. I meet with police officers all of the time. I've talked with many. I'll continue doing so.

And I am finding out that out there with those officers, not only the officers of color, but the female officers, the elders, and many of the middle-aged, they see a system that has failed. Their job is to come to work to try to instill what peace, instill some sanity, and safely go back home to their families. There is no more you will come into the community and kick butt. There is no more you're going to come into the community and crack heads.

So everybody's cracking one another's heads and the whole community is kicking one another's butts, OK? So now, what it comes down to is social importance and social accountability. And it is our obligation as the younger faction to make Huey Newton and all of those that have gone before us proud.