It is indeed a pleasure for me to welcome all of you to today's meeting. I'd also like to welcome our radio audience throughout the Upper Midwest who are hearing this program on Minnesota public radio's midday program broadcast of Minnesota meeting or made possible by the law firm of Oppenheimer wolf and Donnelly with offices in Minneapolis. St. Paul and major cities in the United States and Europe.Members of Minnesota meeting represent this communities leaders from corporations from government from Academia and the professions. They meet 12 times a year to hear from and question leaders of national and international stature. This is our 14th year in the marketplace of ideas. I'm very excited to be at the helm of Minnesota meeting for the 1995-96 season. We're doing something just a little different this year the board of Minnesota meeting recognizes that the information age we are now entering will change the way we all live the way we all work and the way we all playThis year we're going to focus on three related areas under that umbrella understanding the technological and intellectual developments behind the information age how these developments will affect our competitiveness in a global economy. And finally how we can continue to rebuild our communities in this new age. We are very pleased to have with us today Studs Terkel the Pulitzer prize-winning journalist, oral historian and author who will share his observations on the impact of new technologies on our lives his latest book coming of age the story of our Century by those who have lived. It is a collection of interviews from the voices of 70 very different people. The youngest of whom is 70 and the oldest 99 together. They give an extraordinary view of American life and work throughout this century and underscore the ways in which times have changed studs himself turned eighty three this year placing him right in the middle of those he interviewed for the book. His previous books include race the good War working and hard times in addition to his prolific writing career. Mr. Turkle has acted in radio soap operas than a disc jockey a sports commentator a television actor and for the past 38 years. He has hosted a syndicated talk show on Chicago's Fine Arts station. He graduated from the University of Chicago with a liberal arts degree in 1932, and he received his law degree from the Chicago Law School in 1934 when mr. Turkle has finished his address. He will take questions from the audience Jayne Murray. Sick and Gloria mcclenahan will move among you to manage the question and answer session. Now, let's give a warm Minnesota. Welcome to mr. Studs Terkel. Thank you. Thank you very much. Ron James. I had a very remarkable experience this morning in Minneapolis. I was interviewed by some of the members of Minnesota Public Radio and I was deeply moved by their literacy the charm that Grace and should be proud of that station. And I was also interviewed by Barbara Carlson and I thought to myself I have run the gamut of life and two hours. Which which proves that Minneapolis is a very Cosmopolitan City. As Ron James pointed out I will speak briefly here because I like the idea of questions and answers as Anna church. It's called and responses Reverend Reverend knows here called and responses when you ask questions and the preacher responds and when it's over I'll pass the collection. The idea of talking about technology concerns people who are 70 and over the reason I've chosen them as cuz we've lived for one of the most remarkable centuries and the history of the human species never has there been so many technological advances at one time and never has it been so barbaric and so many quarters and never has it been so good for so many people and so famine written for so many others is a remarkable century and the people interviewed have witnessed the Great American depression World War Two the change the map of the world the Cold War and McCarthy and what happened to conversation the 60s, which I think some may disagree a remarkable moment for the young especially and then the age of the computer all is rolled into one and these are people 70 and over. Who are I call the grills member Alex Haley wrote Roots. And he went to visit the land of his ancestors Gambia in West Africa and he met these people called oral historians grows as the word. So these people have called upon are the grills of our society who tell I hope the young will listen and read and their contemporaries what histories about so we come to me and the computer. I have to make it clear that I was born in 1912. So I call myself a Titanic baby that was born within the month the Titanic the great ship that could never go down did go down and we still have that battle of challenging nature as we do and so many quarters of Titanic went down I came up. Which proved to me a question unanswered who said life was fair? And so the computer I should have been called The Poet of the tape recorder because I use a tape recorder. I haven't the foggiest idea of the tape recorder works. I'm so inept mechanically. I can't drive a car now. I'm just going to use the typewriter. So people ask me about the computer. The computer to me is Einstein's theory of relativity. I haven't the faintest idea. Now, I language is changed. I find I'm confused by the Contemporary language hardware and software Hardware to me is Hammer Nails pots pans software pillowcases Linens Turkish towels. And then I use the telephone and I want to call up a friend of mine Charlie Miller. The only thing he's Charlie there and a human voice has no Charlie's not in now. I called Charlie Miller and a voice that is not quite human once was but isn't anymore says so-and-so pressed 1 and otherwise, push two three, four five to six after five minutes. I haven't the faintest idea who I called. Now I'm not denying the use of the computer. We know that a computer gathers facts as never before but does it gather truth? No facts are not always truth. So the computer removes us at least seems to me a bit further human from the machine removed. For example, I know many of into the Atlanta airport. Now, this is what happened to me one day. It may have changed slightly, but it's about 12 years ago Atlanta's a very modern airport. You leave the gate and there are trains when you take you to concourses and your ultimate destination. Now these trains will take you there. Smooth easy trains were on it everybody Silent not a word you voice you hear from up above once with human, you know it and the voice says Concourse one without losing a beat Dallas Fort Worth Concourse to Omaha, Nebraska Town telling everybody silent trains about to take off when a young couple Russia and they parked a Pneumatic doors. Just make it The Voice without losing a beat says because of late entry we delayed 30 seconds Now imagine this young couple and maybe Honeymooners You Know. Can you imagine that crowd looking right at them vindictively now they were so I happen to have had a couple of drinks always do this to Steel myself these things and so I call out no matter of an old-time train Corner George Orwell your time has come and gone. And now you just laughed but they didn't on that train. Suddenly they look at me. And so I joined the three of us there. They are there. We are at the foot of calvary. Now luckily I am this time. I feel pretty depressed. But luckily I see a little baby in the lap of a mother but a a year old baby. And so I talked to the baby. I hope my mouth this way because my breath may have been a hundred proof. So I say to the baby sir or madam, what is your opinion of the human species and is here open our baby is maybe looks at you that clear looking have turn away. They look so clean and then the baby breaks Noble laugh and giggle and I see thank God Almighty a human reaction. We got it made but this is a true experiment know it's funny at the same time. It's real. This is what is happening with the computer. That's a in the book is the doctor about 70 72 and he's talking to the young intern about patient. How did you do last night? Mrs. Smith and the young intern punches into the computer and out comes the latest lab test is. Oh great. Everything's perfect. No, I mean says the old doctor. How did you sleep did she talk about that pain was a different one. She had before he's I don't know about that. So there we have that human touch again. There's a great painter named Jacob. An African American painter who's known in the galleries for his remarkable panels of the Great Migration up north. He just gave up teaching. He's retired at the University of Washington Seattle and he says the young bewilder him. So I visit him in a studios in his house and there he says feel this brush. Feel the hairs of the brush touch this canvas and as handy as a chisel and the scraper and you smell the oil and the paint he this is all part of the painting even my breathing is part of this painting but the kids I have in class tell me they can come up with a portrait and half an hour on the computer and the hands haven't even touched it. So it's this particular loss of the human touch that I feel now. I'm not a Luddite, you know luddites were the agricultural Farm Workers in England, who what when the new inventions came and put them out of work destroyed the machines. I'm not a lot I because I may be a closet. Alright, so gorgeous, for example, I believe in the washing machine. I don't think that women or guys have to slap clothes on the Rock Community week. I believe Refrigeration how else could I freeze my martini glass so It has its benefits of course, but we must overall where is in the law of diminishing return taking place when I maybe have this since I can't drive a car as you point that out and I've done terrible things at the typewriter, which I'm just learning like I spoke cigars privately not publicly and so somehow the repairman the only one typewriter repair man left in Chicago. He comes over and says, it's cigar ashes in here the key s key. I don't know how you did it. And I said it was easy. And so I admit I'm an anachronism at the same time. I think there's some truth and asking a question when does advance in technology cost more than it offers? And I think the whole question of using the computer. I don't a challenge Bill Gates at all anything he's got more money than I got. But I do think that somewhere along the line there has to be a question asked the human touch is what I'm talking about the hand nothing greater than the human hand. I come from Chicago and a great architect with Frank Lloyd Wright and flank. Right, right use the word organic keyword. His architecture was organic when he built a Hotel Imperial in Tokyo. There was a great earthquake in 1924. All the buildings went in that area except his because he had it fit the foundations of Tokyo is and it was organic. He says the fingers of a hand are organic is natural the limbs of a tree organic to the trunk. But Summer with the computer the organic aspect is gone something Beyond us is there this happens also with cars to some extent you're in a car you no longer yourself with others you are in in a You are here. But all this to me is the questions I asked. So even now I ask this this All Leads up to other questions of Labor and history and past and the young who have difficult times. He sometimes not just the young with many of us. There is no past as a 30-second sound bite offered as received wisdom. And because there is no past it seems I can I say we're suffering from a national Alzheimer's disease. There is no remembrance of what happened yesterday and know what what happened yesterday will repeat the same mistakes. I think this applies to want to go into now the depression and the role of government that I know is a great bet one of our day-to-day and it's worth questioning the attack on it and the extent of the attack on it and we go and all these questions come up with we talk and so I call upon people of that age who have been through it all. I have a story to tell Argh Rios and perhaps David Brower who opens the book says it all now close with that brower's the those 83 and we share martinis together. Whenever we meet of course double martinis, we have to to match the time and David Brower says we live in the most remarkable period for most of that period his do you realize there'll be nobody ever liked us again, and we'll some of my contemporaries here. So you have a story to tell tell it and now I'm open to questions. And now yes, we any question you want. I was a former this jockey. So OK any question if I don't know the answer, I'll fake it so you can handle it. Thank you. Mr. Turkle you're listening to Studs Terkel speaking to the Minnesota meeting on the station's of Minnesota Public Radio. We have a first question here from Gary Gilson who's the executive director of the Minnesota news Council? First of all, mr. Turkle. Thank you very much for all the wonderful work. You've given us thank you. There are a lot of people who challenged the idea of tax money supporting art. What's your position on that? And what do you think will happen if people succeed in eliminating government support for art caught you ask me a leading question, you know what my answer is of course. I think it's devastating. Do you know we're the only country in the world? The only industrialized that does not have governmental public subsidy of the Arts you go to any big city in Germany with as the staatsoper. There's theater being subsidized and to me art whether it be a painting will be a book where the piece of music is important as a branch. Who where would we be without music? Well not without just Mozart or Duke Ellington music the sound of you there's a I like to interview Ordinary People. Remember this old Italian plumber was saying you fixing a pipe and his music and his dialect without music. There is no life without literature. Where would we be without scriptures the Bible? It is in print, you know, where would we be without Shakespeare where we without the Great American talents we have so to say this is a frill and not worth anything. Well, I think the cost the Cold War is Over. The evil empire is dead. And the cost of one unnecessary bombing plane could sponsor all the arcs for years to come. So I think it's a question of balance understanding the importance of art it is not simply a frill. It's part of a very we ourselves we hear music we read books. We hope it's good literature. We see paintings that Inspire us, of course. I'm appalled by the attack on it. And I think we need it very much indeed. Mr. Turkle. Our next question is from Clark Johnson. Who's with MIT after World War Two. We all had hopes that would be a kind of a one world and yet the world of slipping more and more into tribalism. Do you think that the unfolding computer age with Worldwide Communications can help reverse this trend? That's a good that's a very good question or court. All I can do is offer conjecture. You heard the question. The dream was the global village of one world Bertrand Russell and Einstein all the others dreamed of it in our national leaders at the time. And now we know what's happening. Not just Bosnia Loma and so many quarters the world than element the aspect of nationalism. I think it can see even though I was kidding the computer. We know very well. It serves a purpose. I don't know if that alone but has to be again not simply fact C then get facts. There's more information about these people hear more, but the other information is the basic Humanity of all people. I don't care what the society is involved basic Humanity of all people is there at least I try to feel that working on these books. I made discoveries. One of the men I met would you believe with the former Grand back Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan who stood a a remarkable figure because he went through this Crucible of the perversity of his belief for the years. He was told they others are the cause and bit but bit this poor white began to see how he was being used and how the other who was different the black man black woman was so much like himself and he today is a remarkable man who's a business agent of a union it's 80% black women and at Duke University's from Durham North Carolina flavored PLS to me. It's almost scriptural. It's Revelation Redemption and Transcendence. So using him as an example coming back were talking about the is One World. So I'm naive enough and stupid enough to believe we are a global village is a matter of fact, we have to believe that because remember what Martin Luther King said shortly before he died really live together as brothers as he put it or die together as fool's so that's basically it I think for me anyway, Thank you. We have a next question here from John Haase Berg who's a professor at Saint Ben's and st. John's? Yes, I greatly appreciate your attempt at enhancing the ability of our society to remember it's past but I'd like you to comment on a couple things in that process one of them the it's arguable at this country was founded on people leaving and letting go of their past and trying to forget where they came from in many ways. And that in fact forgetting is a very very significant part of the American culture even as I recall even Chinese Premier Zhou. Enlai said to Tom rest and in 1972 and China that his description American people was that they have no memory and and so I while I deeply appreciate your efforts, I despair someone that they can be successful because he raised that by the the key word that you used is forgetting your at we are We're not we don't forget we ourselves don't the capacity is there but we are conditioned go ahead something new is happening. We call it progress and yet unless you know, it's the old santayana Comet that now everybody knows truism if you forget the past you are doomed to relive it in the future. And of course memory this book I did basically that I'm glad you asked that question because Health we talk about the book which is about memory is people remembering and here's the thing about old people. That is me and my colleagues we forget a lot. I forgot where did where did I put my glasses? I forgot, you know, oh Where'd I put my shoes? But that person remembers a certain event in his/her life. That is key key to the memory of the country. There's a woman she was in Flint, Michigan 1937. She's 80 80 when I interview 80 years old third pacemaker bad shape. Jinora, you know Johnson Dollinger. She was in terrible shape. She's surrounded by in Doral and nitroglycerin pills and everything and she got to be in a wheelchair. She going to fight it she's and she's tired but I say to her and she forgot what she put her glasses and I said, you know, right do you remember the year 1937 in Flint, Michigan? In or was one of the heroines of the Flint sit-down strike though. You may remember when the United Auto Workers was organized the people who are going to worker sat on the plant 44 days and forty four nights beat Noah in the ark by four days and four nights as if they sat in that plant he was unprecedented in the history of Labor and management General Motors plant Fisher body one. There was a girl on the sound truck urging the women to come out and help the guys in the plan that girdle. Jinora Johnson Dollinger and here she is in this bed with a third pacemaker. I'm about to grab a Nitro to put under her tongue. She becomes the girl to his own there. I was on that truck. She says and a woman came out and a cop try to stop aren't you walk right out of the sleeves of her coat. He was left holding the coat. She crossed it another woman crossed it. They broke the windows of the guys could breathe. All the cops were tossing tear gas into get the guys out. Fed them food, and we won and she falls back on with fellow says using her words for crying out loud. This should be a better world than it is, but that's not a memory that jumps that gives an exciting and what she remembers is the important thing. What you forget is the insignificant thing. That's must remember the important things. I'm glad you asked that question. Thank you. Mr. Turkle our next question is from mr. Turkle. Yeah. Our next question is over here. I've got to warn you my hearing aids even though I'm anti-technology some extent ibank. I'm the bionic man. I got to put it back in. And here it is again. So thank you. Now. Wait I get this in I'll answer your question. You'll hear a whistle. This is me Sam. I'm a contradiction in terms. We have a question now from Robert White who's with the editorial page of the Star Tribune? Mr. Turkle you were regretting and I think warning of the Detachment that technology brings from Humanity of the doctor reading the charts, but not talking to the patient the problems with the computers. Technology isn't going to go away. I mean the computers aren't going to go away airplanes and Automobiles aren't going to go away. How would you suggest that those of us who are involved in working with technology restore the humanity to our everyday experience? I wish I knew I'm not sure you face your in it and has to be of course. You're right. I mean, I'd be a nut you know, if I said if I be a lot I'd because I destroy the machine it's here. I imagine remembering always that whoever it is feeds whatever it is into the computer is a flesh and blood person and I suppose that person that man that woman and today that childhood say has something in his head or in his/her heart. I don't know it's cliche. I'm offering here and yet the only way I can say to remember the human. Of the being who works with that machine, so I have problems see I'm short-tempered woman comes to the elevator. I'm like WC Fields WC Fields, you know, if they hit a trouble with Picket Fences and hat racks. These are inanimate things became the enemy me and the elevator. I wait and sometimes the oven shuts the door on me and I believe that elevators and time me anti-human. So sometimes I kicked the door and guess what it works the door closes, but I think the basic Humanity of the person feeling Thank you. We have a next question here from Malcolm McClain. Who is the former president of Northland College in Wisconsin? Welcome. Well, thank you. Mr. Turkle really bob-whites question was buying I was going to ask whether the odds on the human Spirit versus technology weren't kind of going against the human Spirit, but you've pretty well covered that so let me ask another question. What's next for Studs Terkel? What projects are you working on now or what the next book we can look forward to I'm 83 years old. You are very optimistic. I thank you very much. I don't know I'm just thinking out loud. It comes I work at a sort of improvisational way. So I like jazz because as improvisation something at the moment, I'm thinking about those introductions to the books that I work on because I have a lot of self-doubt I might as well tell you about writing often they say you're not a writer you quoting other people because that working that out is quite a chore in itself, but I want to make a right. I did do a book called talking to myself. I think maybe a collection of some introductions with five or six from the other books about 10 of them might make a compilation a continuation. You might say if this one using all the books past, I don't know. I'm just thinking out loud. Oh, that's one question. I got to have people say status used to be very optimistic. Are you still there? I'm not as optimistic about the human species as I was but I have hope and the point is Hope is the key without hope it's your head in the oven. There's a woman has been in a couple of books Jesse Dela Cruz. She's a farm worker work with Cesar Chavez and Jesse's about 75. She has Shades. We have a we Mexican people have a phrase in Spanish Esperanza Hope, I'll paraphrase as badly as per on somewhere our dies an optimal Last Hope dies last so I'm not as optimistic as I was but I have hope that's why will I can say for now tomorrow might have another feeling thank you. Mr. Turkle our next question is from Bud friend Jones. He's the pastor of Mayflower Church. A number of people around the country now are dealing with end of life issues. And we're aware and in some of our faith communities of people who don't want to live lives of diminished quality who want to keep their assets together and see that they are passed on in a productive way rather than dispersed through the Medical Care Systems and all of that. So I have two questions one is what kind of advice would you give us about the way we care for our elderly and what kind of advice would you give to elderly people who are considering ending their lives? What kind of advice would you give to us about how we care for our elderly? Well, that's it. That's it. Right. Now. There's a battle going on there seems to be a generation gap. That's phony Gap that's conditioned about young whirring, you know so much dough is going to soak secure. Nothing will be left. I don't for a moment believe that and see I think there's always a connection. That's why in some societies as the extended family, you know, some doctors, you know, in other societies speak of bringing the patient home of the patient is dying at patient. Is there among the dear ones grandchildren others. The extended family is part of we're talking about as for the elderly themselves. This book is my answer to it. That is they take part what have they got to lose I'm talking about people who finally been pensioned off say many of them have a pension not much but enough to live on Do you know the name Maggie? Kuhn? Maggie is the old woman who founded the gray Panthers a militant group of old people now, here's how it happened. She was a social worker over the Presbyterian Church reach the age of 65. She and three of her colleagues or so women were pensioned off and they start crying and that is what are you crying about? We're free at last we have no boss to answer we have enough to live on that much hear those kids. That was the 60s kids out there. We can put to use her phrase are warm old bodies on the line have a battle of community. I juices of start flowing will suddenly count. I thought of a song that Kris Kristofferson wrote that Janis Joplin used to sing who came home town of run James Port Arthur, Texas and Janice sang the song member Me and Bobby McGee. Remember the line on that song Freedom's just another word for Nothing Left to Lose. Well, that's a great line. And so Maggie took that line. And so I would say step out as David Brower does in the book. This is your charge for knowing there was no one like you and to be no one like you ever again do it now and you juices start flowing. I think it's terrible that a lot of old people especially women in this book who are very active and some of their very alive far from pallid the Juices Flow. Thank you. Mr. Turkle we have a next question here from Mike Murphy who's the director of the Minneapolis campus at st. Thomas? Mr. Turkle. I wonder if you are really 83 and there is an end to all of this. Whom do you see as your successor as the American story teller? Oh, I think there are a lot. Thank you very much. I think there are a lot of storytellers and different parts of the country in Appalachia specially elsewhere sometimes in your community and neighborhood. I found out in some of the schools where these books are taught when many of them universities and high schools books about in sociology courses in English courses, some of the kids in the class are equipped with little tape recorders and they ask of their grandparents about their lives or they ask of an elderly neighbor. So there are story tellers around in a bar just don't have to know them by name. There must be scores of the has to be because we are by Nature the human being is by nature a Storyteller remember Oral history was here long before Gutenberg invented the printing press so it's nothing new now during the Depression as the New Deal was in effect. You don't mind if I talk about the New Deal of it. I got a job on the WPA. That is for those of you young was at work projects Administration government created work to help solve help alleviate unemployment program. And on the WPA. They did what I do. They spoke to people in the community old people's lives were and out of it came a good number of works on that subject. So they got to be around - I hope so. Thank you. Our next question is from Nate garvey's who is the director of government Affairs at Dayton Hudson Corporation? Thank you. Mr. Turkle. I've enjoyed all of your Works your a terrific historian of the American Community. It would seem to me and one of the things that I see going on in community right now is almost a lack of accountability of accountability between His neighbor's politicians and I was I'd like to bring you back to your days as a disc jockey. I'd like your comments on the current state of Talk Radio. You mean Rush? You know what? I find interesting by the way the station I was on with Barbara this morning is the one Rush Azam to you know, the word is fans. His fans are proud to use the word ditto head. So think about the meaning of that with ditto hats we like rusted did O is what was said before ditto is what is repeated what was said before they have proud of being mindless think about it. Now, they are proud of being ditto heads proud of not thinking for themselves this country that can back the United States of America was founded and the whole idea not just of a citizenry but a thinking citizenry in the very beginning those who wrote the Declaration with thoughtful men men. Unfortunately there now, we know women and of course people of color to but then MIT but there was thoughtful and Thomas Paine when he wrote Very eloquently Common Sense reached about a hundred two hundred thousand people out of a population of what 5 million tops be equivalent to a book selling 10 million today. So there were people the idea was reading the idea was debating and arguing how many hours people stood up to her Lincoln debate Douglas 456 our to hear them debate and today. Of course, we hear much debating me. You wouldn't call the Dukakis debate a debate that a caucus Bush debate. Remember that one not far. So there was neither one was a winner the one did win academically, but we're coming back to the question of thoughtfulness. And so when talk about talk radio Talk radio is great. I love the idea of calling shows. I'm crazy about Colin shows, but it's all one way and one thought then it's not really a call until I like debate and argument even among those calling in we were born out of debate. We were born out of argument. So I like dispute very much provided some a certain level. Thank you very much. Mr. Turkle we have students here from six different schools. Thanks to our corporate sponsors. And we have a young woman here from Como Park Senior High human who's a guest of the st. Paul companies and she has a question for you. As an oral history gather you have made lot of people but can you tell us about who I mean, hope the most memorable person you've ever met was the most memorable person. It's like saying which child is, you know, your favorite child. There's no one. I want any of your Bertrand Russell good thinking during in North Wales, and he was a fascinating guy. He Bertrand Russell the great thinker live with his grandfather who knew Napoleon get this his grandfather Bertrand Russell of to be 94 years old his prayer for new Napoleon and yet he Bertrand Russell led a March against the atom bomb from Autumn a standalone. Think about that from Napoleon to the atom bomb. So I think his lifespan in his head if the greatest of any human ever lived, but not the most remarkable. I think Mahalia Jackson My work was remarkable a cockney waitress who once worked with Dylan Thomas the poet and he said she's a remarkable view of things. There is no one person. But each one in his/her own way, you find Ordinary People are capable of extraordinary things. This happens all the time. So there's no one. I think it's a compliment. I think I human race is the most extraordinary the human race that has given us Hamlet and and Beethoven's Ninth and ode on a Grecian urn has given us Hiroshima now Schwartz's well, so the human being is capable of anything good and bad and the question is what are our standards as a society and the world and that's what it's about to. Thank you. Mr. Turkle our next question is from Carl Hayward who's with the Federal Reserve Bank of Minneapolis. It seems that one of the things you're saying is that as a society. We are putting greater value on things rather than people. Do you have any observations about when this started and what might have caused that change in values I have a car here you're you're laying it on the line somewhere. I think each of us is to figure out I sound like a Norman Vincent Peale here. No, I think Asia for you. How long do we live? Let's face it. How long do you live? You know? There's a limit. I mean all of us touch mortality eventually, so you have to figure out how you know what I think we all believe in immortality. I do to immortality as something you relieve Legacy and to me. Well naturally I reaching a certain age I start thinking more and more about that and Freedom's just another word for Nothing Left to Lose. And so that's an individual decision to make I think it's up to that person to debate. You know, your gag is you can't take it with you. You can't or that I know a guy named Nelson Aldrin and he knew a French writer and she said tell Nelson organ. She thought he was cheap and saved his money all the time. He didn't which is tell him the last suit has no pockets. That's a good way to end and I think that's great. Thank you. And you're listening to us. We got a couple more on. Okay, we got it. You're listening to mr. Studs Terkel on the station's of Minnesota Public Radio have a question here from an Buchanan. Thank you for coming to Minneapolis in your lifetime. You've witnessed the rise and fall of various forms of governments and utopian communism socialism. A lot of the ideas have been proven bankrupt. What do you conjecture is going to be the next is MM. Is it going to be capitalism isn't very easy. I'm sorry. I interrupted you. Okay. Well, I just want to get your ideas on what you think's coming because some of this is very close to your mother. It's a good question what form will the future take will it be our form of capitalism? We know what communism led to socialism has a pretty even try and I think that my own feeling here I think is oh I know I think it has to be a fusion of things. I think there has to be some fusion because truth isn't in the possession of any one person truth isn't possession everyone. Singular idea, I think truth is a combination of many. I just spoke with the nature of the human being what he's capable of doing good and bad. I think the has to be choosing individual is terribly important individual but without Community that's one of the themes of the book perhaps we can close with this Bernard Shaw is quote the beginning and Bernard Shaw says people worry about taking part in something bigger than themselves like Community because it might hurt the individuality. He says precisely the opposite is the case. If you become part of something and it's affirmative. You become richer a result. Your personality does individual, it's not Doggy Dogg is mmm and he said it but so does a guy in the book named Joe Begley Joe Bradley runs the General Store in Kentucky in the most poverty stricken part of Eastern Kentucky. And Joe says he's active is I'm part of Joe's had fifth grade education. Heard of Bernard Shaw Shaw never heard of him. He says exactly the same thing part of a community. I got to be part of that and work for that. Otherwise, I have no meaning. So in a sense that very metaphor were using could be what you're talking about individual and community of fusion somehow saving both identities and entities and this good way of putting one on my head. I got a quick one on my head. Thank you very much.