(00:00:00) It is indeed my great personal pleasure to introduce our distinguished lecturer. Dr. Hanna Mikail ashrawi. We met nearly 20 years ago in her hometown of Ramallah. Both of us idealistic recent graduates of the American University of Beirut both with some idealism of those years still remaining today. Dr. Ashrawi fin earned her PhD in medieval and comparative literature at the University of Virginia and is professor of English at beer State University the leading Palestinian institution of higher education. She has authored numerous scholarly works on literature and culture writes fiction and poetry and is a member of the Palestinian writers Union in the occupied territories. But she has always combined her academic Pursuits with activism for peace for women's and human rights and for Palestinian self-determination. Until her resignation in 1993. Dr. Ashrawi was Chief spokesperson for the Palestinian delegation to the palestinian-israeli peace talks since then she has turned down several offers of ministerial posts in the Palestinian National Authority to work instead outside of government long active in human rights work. She has recently found at the Palestinian independent Commission of citizens rights. Henan, you are an inspiration to those of us seeking examples of strong and courageous women in public life. It is fitting that you are here at the University of Minnesota on the 10th anniversary of our Center on women in public policy. Allen was a silent film Minnesota. Welcome to Minnesota. Please join me in welcoming. Dr. Hannah Nash Rowley. Thank you very much. (00:02:19) Thank you for a very warm and heartwarming reception. I didn't mind the cold outside. Actually, it's the warmth inside that makes a difference. Let me first thank you for inviting me for having me here. It is a pleasure and a privilege to be among you would like to thank the University of Minnesota that Hubert Humphrey Institute of public affairs and all the people who made this possible. And one thing perhaps I would like to start with the fact that I was told. I'm crossing a bridge coming here that the Hubert Humphrey Institute is on the West Bank and we are here on the East Bank. And I have crossed many bridges, but nothing compares to crossing the Jordan River actually, so I'm coming from the West Bank to the East Bank literally. Well, it is time. I think to speak out and to tell the truth there is nothing to be gained by trying to gloss over issues by trying to present a sanguine approach to a peace process which has been characterized by pain rather than by achievement and to point out that actually piece is not Spectacles on the White House lawn. But there's Nothin handshakes and photo opportunities. It is not even in signing agreements or Declarations of principles. Peace has to be achieved through an active commitment through a will a change in focus and Direction and mindset and attitudes through creating the conditions of peace. And if it does not incorporate the basic ingredients of justice of recognizing the legitimacy of both sides, if it is not based on an understanding of parity and reciprocity and mutuality, then it'll be merely an incorporation of an asymmetry of power which has characterized occupied an occupied over. decades and Out history (00:04:38) Our peace process (00:04:41) is indeed a Unique Piece process. Has defied actually textbook descriptions of any type of negotiations and peace. I went once to I think was another University. I won't say which one and I said, there is no such thing as textbook negotiations getting Beyond know and getting to yes and so on all of you who've been studying how to make peace will understand that each situation imposes its own uniqueness and it's on conditions. We for example started out as a people's delegation as you remember people who are brought together professionals doctors academics and so on because of the constraints and conditions are forming the Palestinian delegation our leadership. The PLO was not involved overtly. Although it was behind the scenes. We started negotiations through a process of what we call mirrors and veins where we had to pretend that there was no other legitimate Authority out there representing the Palestinian national identity. But that here you are people from the occupied territories negotiating whether occupiers without any assurances or guarantees and not mentioning certain Buzz words like Jerusalem like the PLO borders and so on. But we had hoped that the process itself would become a vehicle for the transformation of reality a mechanism of change itself, which would generate new realities that would imbue peace with substance and with values. Gradually, the peace process evolved back-channel negotiations took place, as you know, the agreement which is known as the Oslo agreement that was signed with such Fanfare on the White House lawn. September 1993 was actually worked out in secret. And signed and a very public ceremony, but we also developed another way of negotiating which I call sign first and negotiate later because those of you have seen the Oslo Accords will understand that these are only the beginning the first step a declaration of principles requiring further elaboration further negotiations lacking basic details, lacking steps of implementation with very serious gaps and flaws in it, which I will discuss but which had to be worked out subsequently. And yet here we are involved in a peace process. Whereas everybody knows that piece is supposed to save lives. We are seeing a greater loss of life and greater violence on both sides. Well as piece is supposed to bring freedom. We are in a state of Siege actually with even hearing talk about building a fence around the occupied territories and thus actually finishing the transformation of the Palestinian territories into one gigantic prison. I remember my husband wants telling me instead of this Raley's a testing people all the time Mass arrests. It's better if they put one fence around all of us and then we'll be one massive prison and I didn't know they will take him literally. It seems that this is what's going to happen. So we are besieged at this point. Peace is supposed to be a process of reconciliation and yet we see ourselves in a sense seeking separation or disengagement rather than re-engagement. We have always called for separation that would create a situation of symmetry and then the engagement on a basis of equality and parity, but now separation has become another form of collective punishment a punitive measure for the whole people. We started the peace process on the basis of the equation land for peace and yet we see our land being stolen literally every day confiscation of land Building of settlements predetermining the issues that were supposed to be postponed for permanent status talks. So against this backdrop of violence and pain ours is indeed a very precarious peace process and I'm here to try to explain that this so-called Grand deception does not exist. The fact that peace is not yet at hand. And the fact that the Palestinian question is not solved but also to instill some confidence and the possibility the potential for peace because we do have a deep and abiding commitment to a genuine peace process which would address the real issues which would resolve the causes of conflict. We are not interested. And a cosmetic process that would reorganize the occupation. We are not interested in giving the occupation a more civilized veneer. We are not interested in discussing symbols and technicalities and if this peace process loses sight of the basic objective for which it was constructed, which is to establish genuine lasting durable. Peace. Then I think that it can be an instrument of deception and further conflict. I remember at one point in Madrid. We said that it would have been much better not to raise hopes not to start a peace process. If you're not going to pursue it to the end because the let down and disappointment from having raised such expectations are going to cause tremendous violent backlash has which is what is happening right now at present. Our process is in a state of crisis. That is a discrepancy between the political level of negotiations between the whole business of keeping the talks going as though they were an end unto themselves and between what is actually happening on the ground and it is this Gap that needs to be bridged. We have to create realities that would generate New Attitudes also towards peace and that would incorporate not occupied an occupied or disequilibrium of power, but a deal sense of creating a new situation based on parity on and (00:11:16) justice. (00:11:19) This process is defective for many reasons. First of all, the required attitudes that were needed the mindsets that I talked about the fact that we approach each other as equals that recognition is not just a technical exchange of blood of letters. But Mutual recognition is in actually recognizing the rights of the other the humanity of the other. And that and recognizing the PLO the Israelis have recognized actually the national rights and identity of the Palestinian people as a people who deserve self-determination and hence statehood and not as a people who deserve limited functional self-rule on part of the land. Some of the problems also come from the lack of genuine empowerment is they'll still behaves as though it is the occupied and we either occupied the whole mentality of military superiority and Supremacy still prevails. And the whole attitude of domination has continued and this that is no way in which a peace process can achieve results if the forces of conflict are still in place, and I'm sorry to say that I've heard this from the co-sponsors from the American side that says we have to make Israel strong enough to make peace, but strength does not come from stockpiling weapons from keeping nuclear weapons and Manufacturing nuclear weapons and refusing to sign the Nuclear non-proliferation treaty. If we are going to move into the major these of the 21st century democracy disarmament also demography. We have serious problems that and development then we cannot trail with us or take with us the legacy of the Cold War and the prospect of future violence. Again, this peace process lacks genuine sponsorship genuine International participation. We started out with Madrid as a major International Conference and then we ended up with two co-sponsors the US and Russia. It was Soviet Union then became Russia, and now I said at one point that one co-sponsor disappeared and the other became a spectator. And now we are left. To deal with all the complexities of an evolving situation and a period of transition that requires actually International responsibility. And participation we require a system of accountability. I used to say that Palestinians required a system of protection for human rights and Israelis acquired a system of accountability for their policies. But now I think everybody requires a system of accountability and the Palestinian question was not created by the Palestinians the palestinian-israeli conflict. And hence. The arab-israeli conflict is a regional conflict and an international conflict with them with global ramifications. And unless it is seen as such with its potential ripple effect, implosive and explosive potential then I think there will be a serious abrogation of responsibility. Again, peace process is not a factor of domestic politics. I told the a meeting of Israeli Peace activists and colleagues some time ago. I said we did not enter this peace process in order to bring their Bean or the Labour government into power. And we are not in the peace process in order to help him maintain his power or maintain the Coalition between labor and marriage. We are in the peace process because this is a historical change. Because it took courage and commitment to undo and we didn't undo all the damage but to change the course of history from inevitable conflict to possible reconciliation and we are there ready to work for it, but not to reduce it to the narrow self-interest of this party or that party. This peace process needs Vision historical vision and the same way we didn't enter it to save the PLO as individuals. No, we entered it because we wanted the PLO to be recognized as an expression of national identity enhance National rights. That is a process of diminution going on the whole historical Legacy and sweep is being unjustly treated in the sense that people feel if we discuss a few technical arrangements and a few functional tasks for the Palestinians. This was solved the Palestinian question. We knew from the beginning that the palestinian-israeli conflict has is multi-dimensional. It has a spiritual Dimension a historical Dimension. It has a geographic as well as a political Dimension. It has a human substance. It even has an existential Dimension and if we could solve the palestinian-israeli conflict, then I don't think there's any conflict in the world that could be described as tractable intractable. So this conflict in a sense has to be addressed in all its complexity. It cannot be diminished and it cannot be looked at as a tool either to win votes whether here in weather in Washington or in Israel, or even in Palestine. The peace process is a means of genuine transformation and peace in itself cannot be reduced to become an instrument of self-interest. Now the agreement itself has failed to deliver primarily to the Palestinians the main aspirations and rights that Palestinians so as the focus of our being and therefore as the real objectives that should be addressed and resolved in. Peace. The whole issue of the land is not being addressed. As I said, that's the territorial approach that has become sorry. It was the functional approach rather than the territorial approach that has become the prevalent approach. Now again, the issue of fragmentation. We are being dealt with as a series of populated centers or centers of population as though we had an accident of History not as though we are a people integrated with a national identity and with rights for statehood. (00:18:33) issues that are (00:18:34) extremely difficult and therefore form the core of the conflict have been postponed without getting any guarantees that they will not be unilaterally predetermined or prejudged by herself particularly the issue of the land itself and settlements the issue of Jerusalem, and of course the issue of Human Rights Human rights is being used in these negotiations as a bargaining chip. and as a point of political blackmail and it's not just counterproductive. It doesn't just erode support for the peace process. It is inherently immoral to use pain as a tool of coercion. And it is unfortunate that it's the civilian innocent bystanders and people standards and people who end up paying the price for political manipulation. among the other flaws of this peace process is the fact that one side adopted the priorities of the other on the basis of power politics and domination. It is unfortunate, but the Palestinian side has adopted security as a priority and not even Palestinian security but Israeli (00:20:05) security. (00:20:09) And this is very strange because the peace processes in order to save everybody's life. Lives on both sides and not to cater to Israeli definitions even of security and now we see the definition of security as a military approach that you need to have security systems and structures and apparatus and so on in order to maintain stability, but you achieve security by having genuine Peace by addressing the causes that lead to conflict and violence and not by repression for 27 years Israel had the strongest military army military power in the region and tried to achieve stability and security through coercion and depression and failed. I find it extremely dangerous. If they impose the same terms and the same approach on the Palestinian side saying you need more and more security systems and you need to clamp down and Crackdown and so on and so forth. They've already failed mean the military approach does not work. And therefore I think that has to be a genuinely assessment to look at what are the steps needed to establish a genuine Democratic process within which the Palestinians can carry out a real Democratic dialogue and debate. And an inclusive structure and mechanisms. That would give everybody a stake in the future. And this whole process of demonization whether of Islam or of the opposition or whatever this allowing are giving license. Two people to label anybody as terrorists just because he or she happens to belong to the opposition or to an Islamic political party is short-sighted and unrealistic. And it's just wrong and it's not going to produce results. The only way to deal with this is through a comprehensive again Democratic inclusive system and also through establishing mechanisms for genuine dialogue and discussion. This peace process needs a process of rectification never in the history of people's. Has a people been given so many handicaps and disadvantages and then being told you're supposed to deliver and behave like a state or a nation. While our basic rights are being negated while we are being imprisoned while the occupation continues while we are subject to a peace process that precedes in fits and starts without an incremental self-sustaining (00:23:04) momentum. (00:23:06) While our people can still be held hostage. While even the process of Elections has become a bargaining chip. Depending on whether it will respond to the Rayleigh security needs or (00:23:20) not. (00:23:23) We are being tested. We are being told you have to behave like a state leadership with institutions with accountability and so on. It's true. We do need genuine representative leadership. Yes. This is a responsibility. We do need to establish Democratic institutions and professional institutions of government and governance. We need to have genuine elections representative elections in a free and fair and Democratic process. We need all these things. But at the same time I've always said that accountability has to be commensurate to the degree of responsibility and freedom. So we neither have full control. Nor are we genuinely free we are undergoing a transitional process which is tremendously painful step by step. But the main problem is that this transitional process has become really hostage the one sides (00:24:35) dictates. (00:24:38) I feel that the PLO is being placed on probation and they are on good behavior. Israel can decide at any moment whether they have delivered or not whether it is satisfied with the previous step in order to move another step. So the transitional phase has been fragmented into many many phases and steps and all under the full control of Israel. But at the same time we have a people the Palestinian people who are extremely possessive of their rights extremely political extremely active and intrusive. another people easily subjugated And we have a tremendous sense of national pride, and we also (00:25:23) know. (00:25:30) And we also know what our rights are because we have been on the receiving end of repression for so long that we know what the absence of democracy and human rights could mean and we will not do unto ourselves what was done unto us and we will not do unto others what was done to us. So we have been brought full cycle in a sense to face ourselves and to face our own internal shortcomings and requirements and demands and it would be entirely misleading if we tell you we have a perfect system. All we are now on an insured and guaranteed Road leading to statehood. We are not this is indeed a very difficult and dangerous phase. And the potentially implosive phase because all the flaws all the problems all the gaps in the Agreements are now coming back to haunt us and we have to deal with them. It would be entirely wrong to say that the peace process is flawed. We can do nothing about it will sit on the sidelines and wait and see what will happen. There is a tremendous need for engagement. There's a tremendous need to be intrusive to include on the course of history to set the terms and set the course to be strong enough to say this is where things went wrong. And this is where we need to move. And we knew that the major requirements and the space from the beginning requirements of Rehabilitation. For both sides and within each side the Israelis have to be rehabilitated in order to start behaving as a neighbor and not as an occupier and order to abandon the military approach and to adopt the Civil approach. In different ways and we had to be rehabilitated. Because we have a leadership that is coming from Exile that has been a National Liberation movement and a revolutionary movement that is used to working in secrecy and the dark mobility and so on and we also have a people collectively traumatized by a long occupation tremendously suspicious of anything and of anybody and resentful of any kind of infringement of our rights, and we have to understand that Authority is not by necessity evil because only Authority we've seen has been the military authority of the occupation but that you can elect your own people. You can have your own leadership and you can hold them accountable and you have to generate and create these systems of accountability. Unfortunately, this process of Rehabilitation is not going smoothly at all. Neither among the Israelis not among the Palestinians. We still need the legal system in Palestine. We have a long Legacy. If you want we can talk about this if there are lawyers and tell me if I'm going over time. I am okay. I'll talk to him. We have a legal system that needs unification which is a legacy that goes back to the ottoman days from the ottoman days to the British days to the Jordanian and Egyptian days to the Israeli military orders and so on and we have for Legal areas in this small bit of land subject for different systems. We also need to work on the Judiciary to unify and complete the Judiciary which has been seriously tampered with by the occupation. We also need to establish Economic Institutions because the whole economic system of reconstruction and development is not taking off the ground yet. And we need to establish genuine systems and institutions of accountability of democracy. And that's why I chose at this point to work with in such a system because I don't believe in sitting back and talking about ideals and principles unless you find the means and the know-how and the mechanisms to translate them into living reality. (00:29:47) and (00:29:51) so in establishing the Palestinian independent commission for Citizens rights, we have established a precedent actually in the Arab world and in many countries in the world. Whether tremendous research and found out that we had in the Arab Islamic tradition, there was what was called in Arabic D1 model M which is a quart of grievances were any individual can go and complain against the valley or the person in Authority against the government and can get a fair hearing. We are not a court. We are not illegal system ourselves, but we are a quart of grievances in the and this sense. We have also set up a combination of Ombudsman and state controller to ensure that there is the rule of law to ensure that there is no abuse of authority no misuse of public funds that basic rights and freedoms are being safeguarded and we tend to be a pain quite often. I'm telling you that's not a recipe for popularity. We're not going to win any popularity contests with it, but it is badly needed and it is the first time that the executive has illegally constituted system of ability anywhere in the Arab world and in other countries as I said, but in order to get to them All the disease we are talking about. We really need to go through again this process of Rehabilitation reconstruction and development reconciliation. But in order to get to the Big R, which I call historical Redemption, we need to start a process of rectification through genuine examination of all the flaws and ourselves and on the other side and to have the courage and the wisdom and the strength To deal with this peace process not as an end, but as a means to achieving a just peace. Thank you. (00:31:51) You've been listening to an address by dr. Hope and an Aishwarya Rai a Palestinian spokesperson at the cars and lecture series at the University of Minnesota and listening to the FM news station. Dr. Shari will be taking questions from the audience at this point. And those questions will be read by Edward shoe who is director of the Hubert H Humphrey Institute for public affairs, which is one of the sponsors (00:32:16) of the me start with an easy one. Is the peace process going according to un resolutions 242 to 338? Well, the basis of the peace process where the solutions 2421338 and as people know what they are, but they were the basis along with the equation of land for peace 2421338 and the Preamble of 242 talks about the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war or by force and 338 calls for the convening of the International Conference of the confidence under the appropriate sponsorship. I must say no in all honesty because the basic ingredient of the land is being prejudiced and be judged by Israel right now even in setting up what it considers the green line or in creating settlements and in and setting up check posts and so on to ensure that there is no Communication of a fatal kind between Palestinians and Israelis. It is already predetermining the outcome and issues like Jerusalem. it certainly we consider the Israeli annexation unilateral annexation of Jerusalem as illegal because against it goes against all Security Council and all un resolutions which deal with Jerusalem as part of the occupied territories again, the issue of settlements and the land grab is illegal because that again is disposing of the land which is supposed to be the basis of a genuine settlement in issues like refugees. For example, the issue of refugees has been Palestinian refugees, which I call the Exiles has been postponed to permanent status. But yet as I said at the beginning any serious substantive issues postponed have to be protected you have to have guarantees and assurances that one side will not unilaterally predetermine the outcome and this Israel has used the time has exploited this time frame in order to create facts on the ground which are entirely prejudicial and in the eagle and which negate actually the whole outcome from the beginning. (00:34:35) Okay. (00:34:37) Next question. What is the chance that Islam? Claw will be established as a basic law in the Palestinian autonomous zones in particular. What is the future of women's rights which in some countries seem to suffer under the Sharia? Well, since we get into the very system, no, I don't think that we are establishing. Our that is a chance of establishing Islamic law because we base everything on the Declaration of Independence of November 1988, which does not declare a state religion per se and therefore does not declare Islamic law as the Palestinian law. We have a long Legacy of laws, which tend to be not religious but more secular the Legacy as I said that goes back to the ottoman period the British the Jordanian and Egyptian as well as Israeli military orders with that is a draft basic law that was said, By a special committee, it has undergone three different readings. The main problem is that we don't have a legislature in order to ratify the laws and to pass them. So even with all the good intentions in the world and our commission is working on legal drafts. You cannot have them ratified because we still have not had legislative elections and Israel still is holding elections Hostage to the whole issue of redeployment. So I would say that the chances of having an Islamic law as the bases are very very slim there. Maybe there are certain as you know, Sharia courts that deal with the civil code like manage an inheritance and so on women's committees and groups are reviewing these laws and I suggesting amendments and creating also institutions that would safeguard That's right. We also understand that in any political deal between the PNA the National Authority and the Islamic political parties that women will be the first to be sacrificed because it will cost them and nothing so we are. We are busy on a pre-emptive move trying to prevent such a compromise and to make women's rights. Not just a legal, right but also a procedural right to have the the women support system to have women's institutions established even within the National Authority to ensure that there is no discrimination, okay? Let me take one more question in this same direction. What point of consideration should be part of quote a system of accountability within a regional context and then within the International System what kind of system consideration should be part of a system of accountability? Yeah to hold people responsible. Well, the most obvious system of accountability is to have genuine elections and then to have the representatives of the people genuinely empowered to hold the executive responsible and accountable. So in a sense, we still don't have our own elections and therefore we don't have a parliament other than the PNC which is our Parliament and Exile that would hold the executive accountable but the main considerations of course always have to be based on first of all legal system, which is applied uniformly across the board adjust legal system and not just a legal system that to ensure that there is the rule of law and at the same time to have Genuine concerns in the law as well as in actions on basic rights and basic freedoms. That should be protected. We got the PLO to accept and to commit itself to accepting the international Charters the universal Declaration of Human Rights and all agreements and Charters pertaining to all right. So the women's rights children's rights and so on that should be the basis. I feel there are now Universal or Global standards that can be adopted by everybody. But at the same time to establish them within the Arab world is going to be a big struggle. It's no secret not just in that about but in most in many third world countries and even First World countries the first priority of any executive system is how to safeguard its political office. And we need to move away from that and create these structures that are empowered by law and order to intrude and to hold them accountable and I believe that perhaps at the regional level we can start with setting up such systems, but we're going to face tremendous difficulty as well somewhat of a factual question what percent of Palestinian went people are represented by Yasser Arafat. How do you are fats agreements bind the non PLO groups? Well, if you're talking about the mainstream organization that germanotta fat-headed, it's the Fatiha organization, which according to most polls is around 40% Now the PNA is formed of also a collision with Frida, which is very small party that splintered off the dfl P Democratic front for the liberation of Palestine. You would have between 40 and 50 percent. I would say the there are people who are not in the authority who are for the peace process but against this type of agreement and the opposition as a whole is not monolithic so I cannot give you a break down there at many different. There's a whole spectrum of opposition ranging from the political Islamic parties like Hamas and she had this La me which are two different parties and must not be confused and also the opposition like the popular front and the Democratic front and then there is a whole what really bothers me is that there's a whole world of I would say intellectuals professionals business people and so on who I have become extremely skeptical and alienated from this process and therefore they're badly needed skills and abilities are not being utilized called the Intelligentsia or the political and intellectual Elite. They are not really part of this nation building process and I don't know whether this is a statement for or against the peace process, but I think all for and against the PNA but I feel we are undergoing again a period of transformation which has serious political ramifications internally. I believe that the traditional factions and factional politics are undergoing Transformations, the old mentality and structures systems no longer work and I feel that there has to be a genuine development and evolution of a whole new political process and political structures and this kind of lively debate is going On but that is also a suspicion of the prevalence of security systems. We had a handful of people and we have seven or eight security systems and most people feel that there is undo intrusion into the lives and freedoms. We had several newspapers also, and now there is either self-censorship or intimidation. We cannot claim freedom of the press we would like to have and these issues have to be addressed in order to get the full sway of the political developments that are taking place. I don't think that you can claim a vast majority for anybody. Nobody has a vast majority. This is a period of flux of change of I would say vital political debate and what may emerge might be quite different. I don't know very pertinent to this. Where is the right of return for the displaced Palestinian refugees in Is peace why has Israel not recognized that the West Bank and Gaza are an occupied land yet. They insist on demanding that the PLO recognize the right (00:43:17) of Israel to exist. (00:43:19) These are several questions. That's right. Yeah, the right of return is not just a national right and a human right? It is also a legal right because of resolution 194 of the UN which guarantees Palestinians the right to return to Palestine or composition depending on what they chose now 181 the recognition of the state of Israel by the UN when the state of Israel was established and supposedly another state that an Arab or Palestinian state was supposed to be right next to his well. There was a stipulation that Israel would be recognized only if it starts taking back the Palestinian refugees from 1948. Israel has not Implemented that the Palestinian refugees are Exiles have remained in Exile since 1948. We entered the multilateral negotiations the refugee working groups on the basis of 194. But Israel refuses to recognize it or to implement it that is a clause in the agreement on the displaced persons of 1967. We have as you know, the refugees of 1948 and the displaced persons of 1967. That is a UN resolution going back to 67 that calls for the immediate return of all the displaced persons after the war of 67. They were not returned. Of course the agreement calls for setting up a quadrilateral committee Jordanian Egyptian palestinian-israeli to discuss the modalities of the return of the 67 displaced Palestinians. And they have just started their work the Palestinian Jordanian component met and they will meet with the Egyptian component to discuss the modalities of the return before they meet with the Israeli side. Unfortunately, I feel that this whole human tragedy this whole issue which to us is a central not just human but national issue the call of the Palestinian question is the right of return the fact that people cannot be kicked out of their homes cannot be dispersed and dispossessed and told that they shall forget their history and identity and the right to return to their Homeland. So one has to work for and ensure that the right of return is implemented is recognized and implemented if that is to be any genuine solution to the Palestinian question and if you is to be any genuine peace that can lay claim to permanence because so long as Palestinians are in Exile and not allowed to return there will be a Palestinian question and there will be all sorts of causes for violence and destabilization not just in Palestine, but in the region as far as the side there was another question dealing with well the second part of that question I have Actually, we have many more so let's go on. Okay, but that wasn't another interesting question. I'll try to retrieve and find okay told ya I connect the next question has to do with us politics. Do you think the average American taxpayer understands the power of the American Israeli political action committee in Congress? No, (00:46:47) let's start answering. But it's not just a (00:46:54) pack. Excuse me people elect the Congressional Representatives on the basis of domestic issues. Right? Nobody holds the senator or Congressman or representative responsible on international issues, right and not only that but that gave a pack and other organizations and Lobby groups and special interest groups the the power to influence elections through funding and so on which is to me which is very serious, but the palestinian-israeli question and the position vis-à-vis Palestine or Israel in Washington is determined by how individuals look upon their own political careers and not based on morality or on a standard or an evolving policy Now American policy has always been hostile. To the Palestinians has always treated Israel as a country above the law and deserving of special consideration. We can go into this in detail if you want but now is not the question the average American (00:48:00) taxpayer. (00:48:04) I don't think is aware of where his taxes or her taxes go and I don't think that you know that Israel is the largest recipient of American foreign aid that it is not subject to the human rights Clause that if a country systematically abuses human rights and so on it is not eligible for foreign aid that if a country does not signed the nuclear non-proliferation treaty, it is also not eligible if it confiscates American Property, it is not a (00:48:32) little so All these things are being violated (00:48:39) and in Daily and yet Israel still gets at least three billion and out like cash in addition to over 3 to 4 billion and preferential treatment and special grants and so on. So I think a certain degree of accountability and awareness is needed here. The next question just takes it one additional step. What if anything can President Clinton and the American government do to facilitate the ongoing peace process. I'll tell you a secret was coming out in my book. So it won't be a secret much longer at one point. I told the American team that they were an obstacle to peace and maybe they should step aside and see what we can do with (00:49:22) Israelis. But (00:49:29) what's happening now Frankly Speaking, is that the Americans use the Middle East peace process as a photo opportunity to get credit to say you see this is a major foreign policy achievement. It is not an achievement. It's a very dangerous phase and what they're doing is they are interpreting. What is good for Israel in a way that might not be good for peace or even for Israel in the long run and trying to impose it on the Palestinian side. And I tell you what, I told our leadership you have to have the political will to withstand American political pleasure. (00:50:11) I'm sorry, it's the truth. (00:50:15) There's one last question. I wanted you to ask I'll go ahead and ask it any projector. He had 30 years. What do you see? I'm not a prophet. No. I'm absolutely convinced that there will be a Palestinian state that we will be an independent people who will come and (00:50:38) Carla I am. (00:50:46) But the real question is how long would it take and at what cost? What is the price we will have to pay? Unfortunately now we are undergoing a very difficult period which brought all our expectations to nothing or two brother some problems. Let's put it that way but I think ultimately we will prevail that is a historical process. There are a people who are people who have a will that was not broken by years or Decades of Exile nor by years of occupation and my confidence is and the will of the Palestinian people. They have refused subjugation. They have refused to be denied or negated by history. They have refused Oblivion. They have repeatedly refused manipulation even by our own people and it is in this will of the people that I think we have to place our confidence that will bring us the Palestinian state. Only then you will have genuine peace in the region and elsewhere because addressing the key to the conflict the negation of the Palestinian people solving that issue is what will bring genuine peace. But so long as the Palestinians are denied. I don't think you can have a genuine peace not just in the region but elsewhere because the elements of instability will be there. So I do forecast piece, but it's not going to be easy and it's gone not going to be quick and it's going to cost us a lot but comment to the audience that our speaker left to be released yesterday morning at 5 o'clock local time there got in last night got some rest last night, and it's given us a marvelous presentation. Let's thank her from the bottom of our (00:52:36) hearts. Thank you.