(00:00:00) Welcome everybody to our open Forum (00:00:04) brought to you by the Duluth News Tribune and Minnesota Public Radio. I'm Bob Kelleher with Minnesota Public Radio. (00:00:10) Our nation has become obsessed with a fear of crime state legislators and the federal government are moving quickly to outdo each other in the adoption of yet harsher penalties for criminals and construction of new prisons. Daily News is filled with the latest on high-profile crimes on sports stars and distraught mother's accused of murder tourists are becoming targets and innocent people are getting caught in the ever-present crossfire. But what's particularly troubling is the apparent increase in the number of juveniles who are getting involved in crime the tendency for kids to engage in violence without apparent remorse and most fearful to us as the belief that violence will spread from the large cities into are relatively peaceful Northland communities. We could offer you many examples of the trend from the proliferation of Youth gangs or at least gang wannabes to recent shocking acts of violence and murder in this area. We've heard the horror stories in the statistics today. We're likely to hear some more but hopefully a few words of Hope and what really can be done to help keep kids away from crime and violence or to help rehabilitate those who have who have touched on it. Our guests will represent the school's the judicial system and Rehabilitation can programs in the schools head off kids who may be getting into trouble. What are the courts doing or should do or what can the courts do to help prevent kids from repeating their offenses? And what is the success and what are the methods used to rehabilitate kids who been in trouble we'll ask our panelists today to talk about the role of themselves and the institutions they're affiliated with and dealing with kids and violence. The forms are joint production of the Duluth News Tribune providing daily coverage on issues of concern to Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan residents and Minnesota public radio stations in the With funding provided by nor West Bank's Duluth combining local commitment services in the capital strength of a diversified organization and our panel guests will include judge Gerald Martin with the local juvenile court system. Dr. Marilyn Marsh is with the student and Community Services with the Duluth Public Schools. And Richard Quigley is the chief executive officer of the one of the city's better-known youth treatment facilities. Wooden Hills will begin our panel discussion segment of our program with dr. Marilyn Marsh. Dr. Mars direct student and community services for the Duluth Public Schools. The district has recently adopted a no-tolerance discipline policy. Dr. Marsh helps administer the district's prevention and intervention programs due to the high number of juvenile residential facilities in this region, the Duluth School serve a large number of young people who have come from across the state in need of Rehabilitation or social intervention. Let's welcome, please. Dr. Marilyn Marsh Good afternoon. It's really good to see you all here. And to know that this many people are concerned and those who could not be here are equally concerned about the youth of Duluth. It's getting so there's so many collaborations now and working together that we all are have a better handle on that how it does take a community to raise these children. And so some of you who are with various aspects of our law enforcement and social services and judicial branches and and residential treatment facilities become more of a colleague to me some then some of the teachers in our system because we need to work together. And so I would like to take the few minutes that I have and we have been in big debate as if we can how fast can we talk because the three of us have so much to say, you know, but we've just kind of outranked Jerry and we're going to keep him under control and or that is our goal. It's about as good a goal is trying to keep the Youth of today under control. And of course, you just put it in a book. We have this handbook now so our students all know what's expected of them and they wouldn't consider violating it would they? Yes, they would and some of them even with the support of their families. And so we are working in the people who have been in our who are in our schools in the roles of principals and counselors and social workers and teachers have really worked to be really clear on what we expect of our students. We do not tolerate violence in our schools. We work together with those other facets of the community to stop it when it happens. And what we want to do is stop it before it happens right now under our safe schools programs that I happen to administer is but with the drug and alcohol harassment has a thread in there and violence prevention all these programs come to say that we know that we need to set some models for our Kids what they're seeing at home in the community in the schools. And on TV is not doing what it what we want it to do. So we're saying let's nip it in the bud if we can of course if we did our job so very well, I would put all my colleagues out of business, but we're not too fearful that we're going to do it quite that well and so as we're working through the schools with our prevention activities trying to catch kids starting at the preschool level and Elementary level that when they start having trouble that we convene some teams of people to say are we doing all we can for these kids have we left any stone unturned and more and more we're trying to do that with our colleagues across the city so that we know that we have brought all the resources we can for the children. It's hard when you're dealing with this to be really clear so that it does not mean that we're trying to get our kids. Out of a traditional High School setting there have been rumors different than that. But the part is we know that what we first and foremost want of our kids is to have them have a school program probably a lot like what we had as kids that we can go and we can think of those activities that are traditional for children that they can be involved with and they can celebrate and that they know the limits they know the limits of the school. They know the limits of the family and that they know the limits of the community and this is our intent at the same time. We're hearing lots of information to say Get it early. Don't let it go too far. Now we go all the way back to saying. Well, how do we stop that? We feel like do we go back to nutrition for the pregnant mom. Do we go back to a healthy mom before she conceives a child. How far back do we go? Well in the school business, we know that we start with the first thing that the child is doing. I'm trying to say you've got to get it together. We have these beliefs of what what a child should do in school and what our youth can do and we are willing to give you the resources. We have many many support staff in addition to classroom teachers to try to model your way. Now, you know the other side of that don't you you read it in the paper that the schools are too much into the social service aspect, but the fact is the schools have to do more than Reading Writing and arithmetic because we know that whole child comes to school and when that kid comes to school and makes it through a day and that's good news. But when some of the kids can't even make it to the beginning we have children in our early childhood programs who have already dropped out of 10 early childhood daycare settings because they can't make it or 11 or 12 or two because they cannot adjust to that setting that calls them for us to put her. It's together and figure this out by the time the kids get older which is most the focus for today the crimes or the intolerances get to be greater truancy is certainly one of the things and people think well that's you know, in attendance and truancy, but we know that gives kids time to be out there to get into trouble. We think assaults and the schools cannot be tolerated. So that means we have to move in when kids are picked up for consumption in the community. It means that that they come to our team of prevention people or treatment people to say we need to do something about this. We know many of the antecedents to crime and it's our jobs along with our community colleagues to figure out how to address them. When kids are suspended or and expulsion or in-school suspension because they have not lived up to what is expected of them. Then there are procedures there certainly are due process procedures some Polly people believe it's more processed than what is due. But nonetheless we need to go through and be cognizant of that if the ice tuned has brought a weapon to school and the student is expelled from the school property the school still moves in and gives the school program to that student in their home or in some neutral setting. We do not totally cut away education from the child. We know how important that is. And so wherever the children are or the youth are in Duluth for whatever the reason be they involved in a homicide be they involved in any sort of crime or something in which there's been a court action. It is unarguably the responsibility of the school. To provide them instruction. Therefore we work and have school programs and extensive one at Woodland Hills with their several programs that they have there and with the other residential facility of Northwood or if the kids aren't AJC we have the school program. We provide the instruction for them because there is such a high community and legal feeling that the importance of Education to these students. The last thing we want is uneducated kids. We know the research of what makes kids and what is the composition of people as they become incarcerated and as they become adults and we also know where that Trend lies with our young people in the schools. We have worked with the police Liaisons that are in our high schools and that has become such a boost to work together to try again to find out what the kids are doing. And so that we can catch it before it goes too far. Are you know, I think that's the part of the Schools rule were there to try to teach the kids before they get into trouble and while they're in trouble and then afterwards when they come back and supposedly they've made their change in their behaviors or while they're getting serving out the time we're doing what they need to be doing. So the schools involved all the way with social services and with other other groups of people. I'm not sure that people that we all know that that probably for the school's is a cost of a couple of million dollars that we do in providing these Services if kids come from other communities, of course, we can build them for that. So it's not all on the Duluth taxpayer, but it is a great expense when the kids don't make it in the traditional school. And so that's the part that we really try to concentrate on. I just want you to know that it's a long process we serve and educate kids. Birth through 22 and and regardless of whatever setting that they're in and that we're trying to get tough with kids and but we also are working in a political setting and sometimes kids are bailed out of their trouble inappropriately and what we believe that we're trying to be more and more concrete with what we expect of these kids to do. We want safe schools for the kids and we want safe schools for the employees and we want a safe Community for all of us. And so that is our struggle and that's our challenge. Thank you. Thank you. Dr. Marsh. Well for those who make it through the school system or not and end up in the judicial system. They may meet judge Gerald Martin Judge. Martin handles juvenile court cases for st. Louis County. He involves himself with many Community organizations and sport of kids and prevention of crime and he's become known as something of a local expert and advocate for the Juvenile Justice System. Let's welcome judge Gerald Martin. (00:12:59) I'll have to just touch on a whole bunch of things. I'm not used to talking for 5 to 10 minutes only. I'll probably leave a lot of things out and hope that members of the audience will fill in the gaps first. I think it's important to try to Define some of the causes that were talking about before talking about how we're going to deal with them. the juvenile delinquent profile What's the description of that we're talking about a child who lacks trust and empathy cannot put himself in the shoes of other people lack of accountability or responsibility for own behavior. lack of respect for authority or four piers lack of coping skills resourcefulness We're often talking about the lack of the basics that we often forget poor nutrition lack of sleep lack of exercise. lack of Medical Care kids coming in and delinquency Court lack of Sparkle in the eyes. They got pasty faces. They can't cope and we couldn't either in the type of physical condition that they're living under. There's a need for thrill for instant gratification low tolerance for frustration powerlessness a feeling of powerlessness and need to have power. Lack of social (00:14:23) skills (00:14:26) may be most important is a deficit in cognitive development lack of cognitive skills critical thinking creative thinking thinking before you act values. criminal value system It may be the clearest red flag. We see a while is associating with other kids with criminal value systems. There's a need to belong and to serve. And to feel valued that's not being met in a positive way. Very often you'll run across a child who is not lacking those things apparently but can often be knocked off track. And especially these kids who have that profile easily knocked off track by pain and stress by grief, which is an often overlooked Factor. the trauma of divorce at least two-thirds of the kids we get in delinquency quarter from broken families. Daily failure in school feeling dumb everyday put-downs and abuse at home. There's a need for relief from that pain. The need for that for thrill for sense of power belonging serving can be met negatively in drug groups get a rush from the drugs and illusory feeling of power Euphoria. You're part of a group of substitute family. That's also a loser e is a thrill but breaking the law The Thrill of the drug effect itself. Can be these needs can be met in criminal group. The Thrill of the criminal act Belonging to that substitute family of fellow criminals and the power especially violence over other people controlling those other people. The most basic causes in this country and locally and everywhere for the growth of juveniles with that profile. The most basic causes or cultural spiritual decline in this country. flight from responsibility devaluing of children and homemakers disinvestment in the future both private and public decision-making having children when you're not ready. Public decision-making building up huge deficits that children grandchildren have to pay while at the same time cutting all services for children drastically. disrespect for people Decline of Civility public manners. Look at the political season. We just went through. I've never seen anything as bad as that locally let alone nationally. And the extreme form of disrespect courses the violence. In the home and out of the home. Another basic cause underlying the problem is that there's an economic depression going on in this country for the Young. It's just like the 1930s but it's not hitting everybody. It's hitting the young young parents or potential parents people 20 to 24 year olds are more than fifty percent as likely to be unemployed 15 to 19 year olds three times as likely full-time employed young people 18 to 24 year old males 1980 18% were working for poverty or below wages by 1990 40% full-time working males 20 to 24 years old working for poverty or below they can't support a family females. It's about 1/2 full time working females working for perving half the new jobs created in the last 15 years cannot support a family above the poverty level. from 76 to 83 the numbers of young families parents 30 years old or younger with children poverty rate in those families doubled. Poverty among Working Families of all ages is increasing dramatically 27% in just 8 years. (00:18:59) immediate causes (00:19:02) the breakdown of support system for children the first line of defense against Crime Is the (00:19:10) family? (00:19:15) A family is the defense against alienation and despair. It's absolutely vital. It is not obsolete. For a child to be a productive responsible citizen. The child has to have the presence of a mature competent caregiver. It's specially in the first three years of life. Those first 18 months. Of nurturing of immediate response to needs is when a child learns trust and empathy if he doesn't get it those first 18 months of life. It's awfully difficult to make that up. Second year of life is the first stage of Independence. You've got to have a caregiver who can draw the lines firm fair condition consistent discipline. To provide security so the kid is willing to go out and explore and learn. nurture and discipline parents have to teach kids responsibility respect resourcefulness. The 3 R's as John Rosemond continually talks about as the child gets older still needs the presence of the parent communication. The shores defense against negative. Peer pressure apparent was a sense of humor. But mainly that communication and the time the time too often one of the most important things happening in this country is the absence of the parent. In the workforce 60 percent of females in the workforce are working because they have to their heads of households or their husbands are earning less than $10,000 a year. The fastest growing segments in the labor market is mothers with children under the age of three. More than half mothers of infants are in the workforce. Two-parent homes. Well over half of them. Both parents are working and they're working overtime. They're under tremendous stress. They're exhausted and they're not earning enough (00:21:19) money. (00:21:26) Lack of nurture lack of discipline. The day care system is totally inadequate to backup the absence of the parents. An important part by the way of the absence of the parent during those first three years, especially infants mother's going to work and so forth. Both parents not there is the grief which is unrecognized. Usually the mother know she's going to work soon. So to minimize the grief of separation from the child keeps the child at arm's length tremendous amount of damage being done. Lack of nurture lack of discipline leads to lack of empathy. Lack of tolerance for frustration the lack of exploration and learning and all of the other things that we see the deficit in cognitive development that we see in the juvenile delinquent profile. Absence of the parent another very basic thing that's happening for the same reasons for the most part is abuse child abuse. It's there's a dramatic increase in child abuse. It's not just increase in reporting its increase in the in the incident. especially the severity of abuse we've got the recipe for abuse happening in this country and inordinate numbers the young isolated untrained parent solo parent with her own unmet emotional needs. But even though the two parent families the with the lack of resources exhausted from work and so forth. We've got stress lack of resources lack of time. child-rearing becomes unpleasant negative and you get a vicious circle of abuse of the child neglect the child responds with the wrong kind of behavior and it goes round and round the surest predictor of aggressive criminal behavior is child abuse children who are abused or six to ten times as likely to commit violent crimes over 95% of violent adult prisoners in this country were abused as children over 85% of the adult prison population generally was abused children over 80% of juveniles and State Correctional Facilities were abused as children. Violence is a learned behavior a child picks it up from what happens to them and from what they see modeled in front of them. There's been a dramatic increase in domestic abuse children are seeing that learning the pattern. The media teaches violence is solution to problems. It's ever more graphic to provoke the dulled emotions trivializes human life desensitizes. The icing on the cake for violent behaviors kids grow up is condemnation (00:24:23) too (00:24:24) often. It is being condoned. Children will be children. Let the kids work it out. Don't intervene. You just make it worse. That condemnation is the icing on the (00:24:38) cake. (00:24:42) So violence among juveniles as indicated earlier is growing rapidly all over the place and Duluth the violent crime rate by juveniles has multiplied five and a half times in the last 14 years and it's a steady increase and the fastest increases among the young kids 10 to 12 years old 10 to 14 years old. Last year one third of the kids on probation in Hennepin County what 13 years older younger? Five times the rate of 1987. Juveniles in Minnesota and now committing 42% of serious crime. The highest age group is 15 to 17 year olds, but the fastest growing of the young ones and in six years the 16 to 22 year old portion of the population in Minnesota is going to increase by 1/5. What do we have to do? In summary, we've got to nurture the nurturers as Brazelton puts it support the families. They need economic support. We need a new deal. For young families because of that depression. We need a work projects Administration as Civilian Conservation Corps get people to work with work experience to put on the resume to get in the private sector. We need that work experience. So that males will be marriageable. We need welfare reform as the politicians of talking about the problem is they won't Finance it. It means training Medical Care good childcare very expensive. So that mothers can get on their own feet economically. in medical insurance coverage for children. We need to revalue the Homemaker whether it be male or female we need a parent home those first three years. (00:26:44) The (00:26:44) Homemaker who's willing to stay home with a kid for the first three years of life should get Social Security Credit for retirement. They should be eligible for the GI bill so they can go and entry under the labor market have it with proper training. There should be a tax shield for families as they used to be. It's been cut by from about two-thirds coverage to one-third coverage for the normal family. taxes penalize marriage that should be changed obviously. We need family-friendly workplaces. With hours for parents or parents can be with children flextime job sharing day care provided corporations that have gone into that aggressively have made money on it. from their own reporting We need to break the isolation of these young parents who have no support who need respite who don't know what they're doing who are stressed out? The cheapest most effective social policy or intervention we can have is breaking that isolation even if would be through volunteers. Let alone Public Health nurses. We need prenatal training, even if it means paying pregnant women to take away the stigma of taking partaking in that service. We have to teach parents how to be the first teachers and get kids ready for schooling. We need intervention and families early domestic abuse the mandatory arrest policy and Duluth has been extremely important domestic abuse intervention project visitation shelter for safe visitation the kids Network program, which has support groups of kids and parents to deal with abuse at home. We need a strong iiu agency initial intervention at Social Services. They were understaffed under resource. We need more family workers right now. They have case loads of 24 that's impossible. It's not too long ago their caseloads of 15, and we're working extremely effectively. The public has to be willing to pick up the telephone and Report domestic abuse. We need early screening. for aggressive behavior The aggressive kid the bully the potential aggressive criminal. It shows up very early certainly by the age of eight. We need teachers keeping logs of aggressive incidents in the classroom for a month and they call a parent as taupe. And I think there's a problem one that you keep a log for the next month or two of them keep alive for the next month. That's a second screen to him will be convinced that there's a problem voluntary intervention in most cases deal with it early right now that Vital Information that every kindergarten first second grade teacher has on children. When kids don't hide their problems goes basically to waste. Need immediate intervention for truancy Lutheran Social Services as a pilot project and truants now for immediate response very important. We need the cooperation of businesses stores. Do not welcome truants into their stores parties. McDonald's That's where they're going and they're welcome during the school day. The holiday Mall should be commended the holiday mall is closed to children and school days during school hours. And that's the way it ought to be. The police have a new program Jake up and I don't know what it stands for but it's picking up curfew violators alcohol offenders at night. Just sweeping them up take him to detox and involving the parents the parents have to come and pick them up. And they're told you got to go into counseling with the chemical dependency person at the local (00:30:55) high school. (00:30:58) Divorce the trauma of divorce which easily knocks kids off track. We have the kids first program. Which should be mandated for every divorce and couple who have children? To teach about the Damage Done to kids by divorce. So they know tell them that me how important mediation is (00:31:19) and so forth. (00:31:21) Maybe most important is we've got to get rid of the current divorce system. The adversarial circus in court and divorces yesterday. I had a divorce calendar from hell. So instead of working on a trying to edit this down to five minutes. Yeah, I was work just horrible family situations with parents paying thousands of dollars for gladiators to go in there and battle and to see who survives the hearing. (00:31:58) And the kids are (00:31:58) forgotten. The perfectly normal nice people on the street become maniacs and irrational in divorce cases. It's understandable. I mean, it's not beyond comprehension. The system is no good. It just contributes to the trauma for children more than a million children a year are being impacted by divorce in this country. More than half of marriages are ending in divorce. Two-thirds of the kids affected by divorce are under the age of 14. Marriage is the last thing about 7 years. So these kids are young most of them? There should be a mediation system a team system a cooperation system in education system to deal with divorcing families. They should not be in court. Grief counseling very important. It's often overlooked very often. I'll ask the kid in delinquency court if somebody died. Did your pet died Grand dad dying. So it says somebody died and it's surprising how often a month ago somebody died. Very difficult to deal with I've gone through it myself. I know what it's like. And kids need education as to what they're going through what the phases are and so forth so they can deal with cope with it. We need to strengthen Community reaction to children. Even children from Bad home situations that causal pathway between the bedroom situation and criminal careers can be broken outside the home. In Los Angeles the police who get very bad, press for often good reasons, but one great thing they did in Los Angeles they decided to do something about the gang problem because nobody else was doing it. So 1989 the Los Angeles police set up a program called Jeopardy. Where they work with 7 to 13 year old kids that fit certain standards of being in trouble instead. They give seminars to the parents and to the kids, but the main thing they do is spend time with them. Police jog with the kids teach him karate, they take him to Hollywood where they play at with stars. They learn how to take roles in plays and stuff get out of their skin because build up their egos and experiences horseback riding modern dance the Arts. They've worked with over 1,200 kids and this South Central Los Angeles big gang area only four percent of the kids in that program. I'm going to make only four percent of the kids in that program have fallen into gangs Duluth. (00:34:45) What is this? (00:34:48) Oh, it says it's just a one hour show. (00:34:54) Kids need a (00:34:55) safe positive environment in which to succeed and learn learn how to get along with other kids. We've got some excellent programs working with that objective. I won't go through them now because I'm being the hook is coming here the schools. We need smaller schools with flexible education. I suppose we can't afford it. That's what the we're told all the time. But we're marginalizing too many kids in these big Schools. They're not really needed in small schools. Every kid is needed and that's what we need. Focus on the elementary level make sure kids have their hands on the brass ring right from the beginning. We need mediation monitors mentors by students students should be involved in making their schools safe. We have to teach the pro-social skills in school. There's some excellent programs Nationwide about six of them that are working very effectively. The Arts music physical education are absolutely essential. They're not Frills. It's a chance for kids to relate to adults in a non-threatening environment to succeed at something if they're not succeeding academically to learn social skills. We need a good school work to work programs and then in dealing with delinquents in the justice system, which is what I'm supposed to be talking about. Maybe I should sit down now is the we've got to have fast. Meaningful consequences. It's an essential part of treatment punishment is not something separate from treatment. It's a part of it. We need consequences that build a kid of like that use a mouse program, but they do things they never did before they learn they can work hard and do things. They have to pay back the community. They have to pay back the victim Financial restitution for damages to victims of apologies to victims. The key to treatment for delinquents is to work on those cognitive skills to make up that deficit and cognitive skill development. That's why Woodland Hills is so successful. I don't know if they think in that vocabulary, but that's what they're doing think before you act creative thinking come up with Alternatives ways to solve a problem and pick the best one critical thinking step outside yourself, see how you're handling a situation empathy values. the best programs of the ones that deal with that Woodland Hills dissolute forestry camp violence prevention group the pert program that deals with first time thieves the soap program seminar and alcohol use we want to set up cognitive skill groups for actual training practice in using these skills. And with the AJC expansion that will become a major portion of that program. We now have a cognitive skills group going for delinquents where that's been tried. It's been tremendously successful in prisons and our program that we have here for juveniles has been very successful. It's a surprise me with some of the ones I didn't think would make it. Wilderness challenge programs time Roy is interested in that. He's the new head of court and field services. very important build up a kids confidence teamwork trust levels figuring things out problem solving we have to get in early and fast work on the front end. Unfortunately, I'll legislature is going in the opposite direction. We'll have to live with that. They've changed the juvenile law last year to focus resources and tremendous resources on The Chronic serious offender. Trying to keep them from being certified into the adult system. I think it's a mistake what we need and what we're lacking or adequate resources at the front end when we have a chance of succeeding and saving lives. Thank you very much. Well, (00:39:06) I did say he could have nine minutes, so Well hear more about some of the programs that Judge Martin was just talking about Richard Quigley is the Chief Executive Officer of one of the city's better-known youth treatment facilities. Woodland Hills institution has adopted among many things appear group concept intended to build self-esteem and teach kids the skills. They need to think themselves out of a violent situation rather than to just react. Let's welcome Richard Quigley. Thank you for coming that concludes our program. It's amazing over the years. I watched Jerry Martin squeeza five minute speech into a half hour. They set they set the problem up I suppose and maybe talked in the bigger picture. But Woodland Hills deals with the young people. You've just heard about the violent aggressive abused neglected difficult the burglars and they come to our door. in handcuffs occasionally now, we have four different programs, and maybe I'll have a few minutes to talk about that but So what do you do with that? You know, you can talk about all of the big picture items we need but what do you do when you have that young person in your face? That's angry. They're abused. They're hurting they're confused. They're violent than all the things. I just mentioned. What will the good news is to me is that young people can change They do change. I see it every day. I've seen it every place I've ever worked young difficult violent aggressive people can change regardless of how bad they are. Also dysfunctional families can change they can grow they can develop my own family is developing. Hopefully day by day has maybe yours is as well. The flip side is not all kids change. You can't change them all not all families become functional just because we throw money at them or have programs for them. It doesn't always work. So you have youth programs? The truth is not all youth programs work. Some do some don't some are effective some provide excellent treatment some are mediocre. Some are excellent. I've seen programs in Minnesota and around the country where they've been in programmatic dysfunction for 40 years. I know a program in Indiana that had been dysfunctional and hurting kids for a hundred years. I mean, it happens The public's not necessarily the public isn't necessary or necessarily aware. Of all these things not everyone understands program or programs for for delinquent youth correctional programming. I mean, it's a difficult very complex task. Very complex you need highly trained staff. You need unified staff. You need a positive staff culture. You need principles program guidelines that must be followed. You need to hold adults accountable. Adults need taught and and most of all you need adequate funding which is not necessarily always available. So you need a lot of things that the flip side of it really is that it's also very simple to change someone's life. To change a troubled persons life. You need to be compassionate. You need to be tough and challenging no excuses. You need to be a teacher. You need to be caring. And it can be done. You also need to have a great deal of respect for young people. And families if you're working with families, if you have no respect for them or think you're going to punish them. I've not seen that work real well and I've worked in some punishment Mills down through my years and I've worked in some very caring challenging organizations and there's a fever now to deal with I've heard all the politicians of throughout the country during the previous election. We just had and everyone saying they're a crime expert and I'm going to be one voting against crying and I'm going to be the one dealing with crime. And we're going to we're going to lock the those prisoners up and we're going to take care of them going to punish them and in reality in my eyes. Anyway, that's not necessarily going to work. And that doesn't mean that I'm not kind of a tough guy because I can get tough with people and it can be very challenging and and so can the staff where I work at Woodland Hills, but we're tough in a different way. We're not necessarily tough in a punishing way. We demand greatness young people can be taught to think for themselves. Young people can be taught to care for themselves and they can actually be taught to care for the people. I mean, it's it can be done. I see it every day. I've seen the most wicked nasty vile young person 15 year old see it all the time. Come to our facility. And change, you know and learn how to care and in fact even like it. Now that doesn't mean remember I told you earlier. It doesn't work with everybody and it can't. We're working for different programs. Now. We used to just work in out-of-home placement with a really difficult child male and female and not Woodland Hills Works in four different areas, but I would like to just spend a little bit of time on the out-of-home placement the real tough young person that you have and and I believe in our philosophy there is positive peer culture and the belief there is that young people are very influenced by their peers. And if you don't take that into consideration when you're working with young people, I think you're missing the boat. Because they really do seek peer approval They Don't Really Care especially the real troubled young people. They don't care about approval from adults. In fact, they're rejecting you flat-out the rejecting teachers police shop owners. You name it? They're they're rejecting that and they'll tell you that so what you need to do, I think and in programs, I don't care if you're running a little league baseball team as Micky Farrell did this summer for neighborhood Youth Services, you have to have to develop a positive culture anyone knows that it whether you're a few could be a pro basketball team or a hockey team or a debate team. You need to develop positive attitudes young people can learn to care. Remember that I've it's true. We know that you teach your own children. Even a vile young person who you may have raised in your own home was very difficult. They can be taught to care. In fact, I think that basically what we try and do it with the hills has when we bring them into the long longer-term out-of-home placement program. We expect that. In fact, you will learn to care about people we're going to teach you every day. We're good teachers at it. And especially the other young people are going to teach you. They're going to show you and they're going to model for you that it works for you. And many of them are taken back they come in and cuff. Sometimes seething angry hostile spitting. Male and female and and they're addressed by a group of young people who basically take it away from them say, you know, hey back off man, you know, we're just young people just like you, you know, lay it down for a while. Let's talk and it really does what we try and do is have young people think for themselves and make them the problem solvers. I'm not saying that our staff are out there solving all these problems young people need to solve problems. They need to solve them in the public schools has Maryland Marsh said They need to learn how to solve them in the family when the big one idea then they need to learn how to solve them in their peer group on the street. So that's kind of what we do. It's very serious business and we take it very serious. It's very challenging. It's not for everybody. It's tough work, you know, sometimes they get angry and they they'll they'll act out physically violently or run away or whatever but we have less and less and less of that as our culture continues to get stronger and stronger in the young people tell other young people. You can do it. Let me show you I've done it myself. We have many examples of that. We have a program called a Chisholm House program, which is a short-term program. So let me 30 days or less sometimes even 14 and we do use the same principles the young people teach them how to do amazing things. I mean they do a great deal of work in a very short period of time they work on some of the problems. They've come there with and basically both of our programs in as far as out-of-home placement goes we're graduating nearly all the young people to come up there. In fact Chism house. I've never seen higher statistics. We work with about 300 kids a year Chism houses the program success rate. There is very very high. It's been as high as 80% but the program completion rate is even higher which is like a 96 percent rate just this past year. And a recidivism rate or our success rate with the main program is extremely high to we've been for 10 years. Now. We've been working on 75 to 80% of the kids that come in. Are successful or they don't recidivate they don't get back into the system. Not doesn't mean they all I'm sorry. We don't do a hundred percent. No program that I'm aware of those. But I'm just backing up the fact that some programs do work and kids do change and soak in families. Just a few more comments on our programs. We do have a day treatment program that's currently has moved to Cobb school on Woodland and it's been an amazing process. We have three groups of young people out there that are working their way back to their school that they came from they were dysfunctional in their own school or they were creating havoc in the community and then I'll working through some of those problems with the help of a peer group and trained staff not doing it alone and they're getting back into their home school. And then the most exciting thing in most recent thing that Woodland Hills has been involved in has been neighborhood Youth Services, which is just over the street here in the central Hillside Community Center. And that has been very interesting well working with young people on the street, which is where I think things are going down the road, you know, right on the street right in the neighborhood right at the youth center. That's where we need to be. Unfortunately. That's where the least amount of funding is and we're really scratching continuously to find any money because you have to have a few or some funding to hire trained qualified staff. There's also other good programs a variety of them with in Duluth that are doing similar things the Boys and Girls Club FBA Value Center Kids Corner Copeland Center in Northwest. It's called youth net and we're trying to get together now and trying to train people there have been a lot of programs not through the years that operated without trained staff and not just in Duluth, but in a lot of places, we've got a long way to go. We really do have a long way to go with with with with the issues around delinquency. But in summary you have to involve youth in their own Rehabilitation. Someone said to me a couple weeks ago. Dr. Larry brunch or I was listening to him speak. How can you rehabilitate somebody that's never been functional? You know, what's I don't get the word, you know Rehabilitation you really need to teach reteach in some cases, but teach people how to be civically responsible and that's hard work and a lot of people don't want to be civically responsible. So it's tough work and it's demanding and you have to challenge people if the creates the young leaders You have to do it on the street on the team, you know in the in the youth center at the treatment center. You got to have trained staff. I'll say that for the 15th time. A lot of people don't don't look at that too much. I think to you you've got to get involved in your community. I call it the don't get into the VCR syndrome. You know, where you go home after work and you have dinner you get a movie and you stick it in there and you sit there and watch a movie and you call it a family thing when you watch it with your kid. I mean, I've done it to it and you know, we I think we need to be out with our with our own children. We need to be out with other people's children. You need to be out in the community centers. I think we need to be involved. It takes involvement. The government will not solve this. St. Louis County will not solve this. It's it has to be people and if it has to be programs then realize and recognize which programs are doing it and support them and the ones that aren't doing it, maybe they don't need that support or tell them to come up the snuff. Young people change they can be more civically responsible adults can learn to work in a family more productively. And it does work. So that's all I have to say. We just have a few minutes for question and answer session. I'd like to Direct One to Richard Quigley considering the economic climate the political climate that we're likely to see in this country soon. I think economy the economic costs of programs will be taken into consideration when any social money is available. What might work that's cheap. That's an expensive. What's the most cost efficient program or direction? We might be wanting to go right now. Well, certainly the last program I outlined when you're working with young people on the street and community centers even in the schools for that matter really all you need are some staff people are trained when you're putting as were known as we know in the medical Arena when you when you put people in the hospital bed for two weeks or six months or whatever. It's quite expensive. However, I think you have to put your money where it's working where it's effective and and we are going to need to incarcerate young people and detain them and put them in treatment centers occasionally, but you'd want it you'd want to put them in a At an organization that is showing you that it's cost-effective that the kids are coming out healthier, they're able to function when they leave their but I really think we've got to do some of our focus on day programs where the kid goes home at night and has to do with his family with family programs or in-home services as well as neighborhood programs. I think that's kind of where it's at. That's where the kids are their neighborhoods. Judge Martin I've heard it said today that punishment doesn't work. And in your life, you've certainly had to dish out punishment from time to time. What do you think is his punishment the wrong direction or does it work for some what's the role of punishment in the in (00:55:03) Rehabilitation? Well, I think you have to go on two tracks. You have to have a consequence not enough punishment punishment is a one word. I suppose there has to be is a consequence of meaningful quick consequence as well as what's traditionally thought of as treatment and I think both tracks are necessary. There has to be a cost. to antisocial Behavior the hurting other people cannot be condoned. And that signal has to go out from every pillar of the community not just the justice system, but from churches schools parents every pillar of the (00:55:45) community. Merlin Mars you spoke about consequences that the kids you try to get tough with kids and I think of it might have been a time. We coddled the wrong doers and try to nice them back into being good. How does the Duluth schools get tough with kids or is coddling going or is that still part of the program? Well, I'm sure that's still a major debate on how to be considered that what drove the child to do something different. Should we be sure we understand the student but I'm seeing a far greater Trend that that the student does this wrong then they have their do they have to do their time they were they make up time or however that is that a spelled out we're clear with them at the beginning so that we're sure that it's not that we're dealing with it in a fair way and I see that being much more the trend but you always have those people who say well let's understand that. These kids came from very difficult Beginnings Judge Martin. You laid out a lot of a social ideas that you think need to be Developed again a considering the political climate. What are what are the odds or what how optimistic are you that there's going to be any major change in the social side of dealing with violence? (00:57:02) Well, I'm not very optimistic. The big cuts in resources began in 1983 and each year. I've been waiting for us to hit bottom. And I had assumed that it would occur that the cycle would turn around we'd return to responsibility we did invest in children and I'm still waiting for the year. I've seen properly resource programs work in spite of all the problems from 78 to 82 when we had a terrific system going with family case loads of 15 families with early intervention crisis shelter County daycare centers with social workers connected to them all kinds of things the police Drop in Center of the you name it. The delinquency dropped 40% runaways dropped 30 and 75 percent the cost of out-of-home placement for kids dropped 1/3. What do I want fourth not counting for inflation the days of care dropped one third in just three years. I've seen it work and then the pull back. And if you don't invest in children, if you don't invest in the front end, there's no way to avoid the enormous costs at the Hind and you can't avoid it. You can't you can pretend it's not there. But it's (00:58:25) there Ted smart. We have to leave it at that for the purposes of our broadcast in the hour has come to an end. I want to thank our guests today judge Gerald Martin with the st. Louis County juvenile court system. Dr. Marilyn Marsh with the Duluth schools and Richard Quigley with Woodland Hills open forums are joint production of the Duluth News Tribune providing daily coverage on issues of concern to Minnesota, Wisconsin and Michigan residents and Minnesota public radio stations in the Northland with funding provided by nor West Bank's Duluth combining local commitment services and the capital strength of the Diversified economy. I'm Bob Kelleher. I thank you for joining us. Thank you. Thank you.