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SPEAKER 1: The message, seemingly, in America is that the standard of beauty is blond hair-- no offense-- blue eyes, 31 inch hips, and white skin. Now, the reason that I say that the messages are the same, however, is because more times than not, more white women are a little closer to that kind of example, if you will.

One of the things that we've been trying real hard with the Miss Black Minnesota pageant, which is another piece that I work with, is to try to get people to buy into that not being the standard of beauty. That is not to say that it cannot be a standard of beauty. But it is not the standard of beauty.

SPEAKER 2: What would be the standard of beauty for an African-American woman?

SPEAKER 1: Well, that's a difficult question. Something else that I've been working on for a while now that we will address in the symposium is that, as you know, in the African-American culture, amongst Black folks, we can be as white as you and as black as the chair that you're sitting in. Our features can be as African as mine and even straighter than yours from a Eurocentric perspective. And so the list goes on, from hair texture to eye color to whatever.

I would like to think that at some point, we will deal with a society and a system, Black and white, where all of those levels of beauty will be looked at equally. And as you know, now we're dealing with a system that typically looks at the Lena Hornes, the Vanessa Williams, the folks like that in a whole lot more positive state, more palatable state, than when they look at a face like mine.

SPEAKER 2: Where do these messages come from in the African-American community that if you have, say, naturally curly hair and you have darker skin than, say, a light-skinned African-American-- that you're not as good as that other person? Where do those messages come from?

SPEAKER 1: Oh, from way back when. They've been around for a very, very long time. They came with us as we came to the shores of this country-- and that all that was seemingly us in terms of our being that was contraire to a Euro standard was then stripped from us. And that is the darker skin, the more kinky hair, the more African features, et cetera.

What you had in place was a system that then began to pollute, if you will, to dilute, if you will, to, per this system, give us what they thought was missing-- and that early on, it was a prize to have the "massa" as your father because, of course, then some of the white blood flowed through your genes, et cetera. Early on, it was very common as soon as a Black baby was born-- the tell tale sign in terms of how dark that baby would be to look behind the ears. And ultimately, that would be the real color of the baby. No matter what the hue of the child, if, in fact, behind the ears was a little lighter, then perhaps there was some hope for the child.

So we've had to deal with a whole lot of injustices as it relates to the system. And even in 1993, with us having gone through the revolution, and sometimes I say the pseudo-revolution and all of the other things where you couldn't be Black enough, et cetera, we still have some work to do on the things that we're subjected to via this very racist and sexist society.

SPEAKER 2: The messages that African-American women get relating to beauty now-- how does that dovetail with their self-esteem?

SPEAKER 1: Oh my god-- direct parallel, if you will. What happens is, starting with Good Morning America and all the other good things that we're subjected to first thing in the morning, everything that comes to us and at us is contrary to our natural being more times than not. And so consequently, you look at a face like mine. And you think, unless I want to do a Michael Jackson on you, I'm never going to look like all of those things that come at me that say, this is what beauty is, this is what I should strive towards, this is what I need to look like to feel good about myself.

For example, I've worn braids for a number of years. And I'll never forget how appalled I was when I visited my baby brother at home in New Jersey, which is where I'm from, and he excitedly said, oh, you're sporting the Bo Derek look now. And isn't that exciting?

Well, it took all I could do to keep from slapping him because even within our own people, it's like, no, this ain't Bo Derek. This is us. This is me. This is African people. But because Bo Derek decided to sanction it, it then became a lot more palatable for folks, white and Black.

And even now with my braids, there are jobs that I have not gotten. There are people that have difficulty with me. And as you know, the most recent event that I'm aware of is the young sister that got fired at Camp Snoopy for wearing braids. So it's those kinds of things that we're still subjected to that force us to question who we are.

Again, one of the things that we do with the Miss Black Minnesota pageant leadership paradigm is we let the ladies know first and foremost, you are Africans in America. And then we attempt to establish and help them through attaining a comfort level with that because no matter how many opportunities come your way, if you don't know who you are, if you're ashamed of who you are, if all of the stuff connected to that-- then the rest of the opportunities and all of the things that they say America is about is still for naught.

SPEAKER 2: But the beauty pageant that you're involved in still has much of its emphasis on physical beauty, does it not? Don't you add to the problem then?

SPEAKER 1: No because ours is a leadership paradigm. The primary methodology is one of seminars, workshops, mentoring, special appearances, and networking. When we get to the judging because of the nature of competition, 50 points come from the judges' interview. Another 25 points come from participation, whether you attended the workshops.

SPEAKER 2: Workshops on?

SPEAKER 1: Everything from interviewing skills to Black history to self-esteem to poise to journalism, the things that we hope that once they figure out who they are and they're OK with that will then give them the skills and the equipment to then combat and move within the system.

SPEAKER 2: So do you have the traditional, say, swimsuit competition, the evening gown competition, things like that?

SPEAKER 1: Actually, this is our second year not having a swimsuit component. I've had young women tell me that, I never, ever thought that I could be beautiful and not have to look what I call a chocolate-covered Caucasian. And we're hoping that at some point, what will happen is that people really will look at all of the levels of us the same. And as you know, we got a long way to go before that happens.

SPEAKER 2: Where do you look for positive role models within the African-American community, especially in relation to what you see in the media?

SPEAKER 1: Where do you look? That's a good question. I've never thought about where do you look. Let me start by saying this. So often, people say the role models aren't there just across the board, be it this subject or otherwise. I say the role models are there. Sometimes, the schism between me and others and the role model is very wide. And so what we have to do is narrow that schism.

I don't think that we have to look very far to find those role models. And I don't think that their role models have to be automatically the Michael Jordans, the Janet Jacksons. I say it's the guy next door. Does he have a job? Does he have a college degree? Is he doing something with his life? Is he setting a good example for our children? Those are the role models.

For our mentoring component, all we ask is that a Black female have survived this system and is still doing some positive things. It doesn't have to be automatically the honorable Pamela Alexander. We know that it automatically doesn't mean that it's the person that's making $150,000 a year. It's not automatically Michael Jordan.

However, in terms of role models, I'd like to think that those folks would realize that because of the pedestal that people have put them on-- that they've got a far greater burden, if you will, for our young people.

SPEAKER 2: Will conferences and seminars like the one that you'll be involved with help in this regard, help get out new role models, help when it comes to changing stereotypes about beauty, especially within the African-American community?

SPEAKER 1: I think so. I hope so. Just a couple of months ago, again, I was doing a group at one of the schools, inner city. And after I finished the group, the young sister came up to me. And she said, Ms. Jackson, I want to thank you so much for not only being here today, but for me to be able to see you and to see you wearing braids.

What happens inevitably with our young women is as soon as they're old enough to not totally fry their brains out, somebody's putting a chemical in their hair because we're supposed to have straight hair. I'm dealing with someone very close to me now as it relates to my 2 and 1/2 year old daughter when the statement was made, she's got such a good grade of hair for a chemical. Well, it's like, I don't care because she's not going to have a chemical until she's old enough to make that decision on her own.

So it's the little things that ultimately begin to make a difference. And you continue to chip away. And to reach one is to teach one. And that's what it's all about.

SPEAKER 2: It is. Good luck to you.

SPEAKER 1: Well, thank you.

SPEAKER 2: And thanks for being here today, too.

SPEAKER 1: You're welcome.