(00:00:00) Well our topic on midday today is conflict on the job and dealing with difficult bosses. We've all faced it at one time or another a boss who's demanding or unreasonable or perhaps co-workers who spread rumors and gossip or an employee who just doesn't perform Our Guest today specialized in conflict and difficult people and help companies and organizations improve their internal relations. Both are licensed psychologists and Graves is director of a counselling service for business and industry at the University of st. Thomas and has been an organizational consultant and trainer for nearly 20 years. She has on the job experience as well having worked in sales and management in a variety of businesses and industries. She now conduct seminars on improving communication and resolving conflict in the workplace with a focus on human behavior Bill Hudson specializes in dealing with difficult people and over the past 15 years has worked with organizations from the Mayo. Two police departments in prisons this past week. He conducted a seminar for the Minnesota League of cities on the Fine Art of responding to irate citizens. He currently teaches at five community colleges in the Twin Cities and topics include. Let me see Bill if I can find my paper again here here it is coping with difficult people working with difficult teams and coping with difficult bosses. So I think you get the drift of what we're going to be talking about here today on midday. First of all a Danville. Thanks so much for coming in on this beautiful Saturday mornings to be here, you know, well before I ask the first question, I will tell listeners that we will indeed be taking your questions and I would Not be too far off. I think if every single person who ever held a job had some problems with people that they work with and if you are in that category and you have some questions for our guests today, you can call us here in the Twin Cities at 2276 thousand. If you're calling from outside the metropolitan area, you can call us toll-free at 1-844-202-2727 to to 828. You know, I was thinking that when many of us get a job, we we focus on the job itself. What is it that we're going to be doing? What are we expected to produce and go into that new position with the idea of doing that job forgetting about the fact that we're going to have to work with a variety of people and is that and part of the problem that when you find that there is difficulty or problems that it's because our expectations Tations are not what they should be. That's right. Our expectations tend to focus on the technology of the job rather than the interpersonal relations that are so important to the functioning in the world of work. Also, what are some of the more common situations that you discover when there is conflict or negative relationships going on in an office or workplace. I think the word expectations is a good way to describe what often happens we expect our boss to behave in a particular way or our co-workers and peers to do specific things. The expectation is that everybody knows our job responsibilities and it in fact isn't true and we have to do a lot of communicating so that we can clarify where the pinch has become crunches. Some people would say that having a negative relationship with the boss is almost inevitable just because of the nature of the relationship having a boss is always a little grating on many people anyway, Does it have to be though not at all? And I don't think it always is either I think there are always some power and authority issues that are lurking in the bulrushes that can come up and bite particularly if the stresses increase with the turbulence of change in today's economy organizations, either downsizing or in fact operating leaner and meaner, you do get more people who are abrasive or sandpapery in their human relations, but I think the better people can communicate what their expectations are and what they need in order to function productively the less app. There will be for those negative relationships and it's one thing to call a relationship occasionally abrasive or occasionally conflicted and another to just label the whole relationship is negative. (00:04:31) And that's the way it is all the time. So to speak yeah sure good you can get in over your head to the point. You think the whole world's after yes, so to speak if one angle I used. Think about this is that a difficult person is a person in difficulty. And that's not a play on words. It's basically saying that Under Pressure people start doing things. I normally don't do later on. They wonder why they did it, but it was our best shot at the time. And so I think there can be some darn good days and weeks and months working with folks whether it be subordinates or colleagues co-workers the bosses but sooner or later there's going to be hassles and stretch the stress and conflict. Then the question is what do you (00:05:11) do? Well exactly. If you have a boss who really has been pretty good and it good strategic planner and works well with employees but the stresses of the whatever is going on cause him or her to just blow up someday and and yell at somebody what does that what should that boss do in that case then? Well, the boys has to become aware. First of all that he's doing something that is negating the potential productivity of the employees and unless the employees have the self-confidence. Since to give the boy some feedback and not in an adversarial way, but just aligning with the boss and demonstrating that in fact, they want to achieve the organization's goals or the department goals as much as the voice does but here are some things that are happening between us that's preventing me from getting my job done. And one of the things that you do sometimes when you're under stress is blow up at me and then I end up going back to my desk and spending a half a day of my time instead of working on my project thinking of all the things I should have said the things I wish you had said etcetera and I think that the more clear the communication can be if they're both aligned with each other. You don't have to like everybody that you work with but developing that interpersonal relationship that keeps you both at a highly productive level as what your goal ought to be. Well, I think that you hit on something that that's real crucial though is that the employee has to have the self-confidence to do that to go to the (00:06:34) boss. Well, that's a big part of the problem because sometimes an employee gives the boss a lot more power than the boss really has or the converse of that. Is that the employee How would I say it trivializes or diminishes their own power? They have more than you realize and sometimes they use it as a cop out what chance would I have and more than just going back to their desk and hurting for the rest of the day or week then they have coffee with somebody at our bed mouth and the boss and then the rumors and the Grapevine ER so it just ripples out all over through the system. (00:07:04) It is part of the problem that often there isn't a specific goal or a mission for what the employee and the boss is trying to accomplish that they're not necessarily on the same page as to what they're trying to do that can happen. What can also happen is they've never examined the ground rules or the operating Norms that says in fact it is okay for us to talk about our relationship and what helps each other and what diminishes our impact on those goals and Bill brought up an awfully good topic when you have gossip. You also have a lot of triangulation. I do a lot of internal Consulting and organizations. And that triangulation seems to be again and again an issue that keeps an issue alive long after it could have been resolved if people go straight to the person that they're having problems with a rather than going to the third person. I angulation being I go to my coworker and complain about my boss rather than going directly to the boss. And if I have trouble with you I go to Bill and talk to him about it rather than going straight to you and examining the culture and the Norms the the the climate is so important so that we know that we can go to each other without having retaliation or making ourselves. Sorry that we ever opened their (00:08:18) mouths. See that's a in my opinion a big part of the problem with bosses because well everybody has power but bosses have power that can hurt you they can retaliate and you know having healthy interaction in relationships. That's the objective of of our whole overhaul our here I guess but not everybody is able to do that. They they protect themselves or well defended and it's At risk right? Well you risk with certain people whether the boss are not particularly bosses because they can abuse their power. (00:08:49) They can you could lose your job. Absolutely. And the other side of that too is that an employee can really sabotage the managers or the bosses attempts to achieve something. So there's a lot of power on both sides, but power is not one of the issues that typically are talked about in an organization how I use my personal power how I use my managerial power or my employee power went to remind our listeners that we are taking your questions today two, two seven six thousand is the number in the Twin Cities. If you have a question for Bill Hudson and an Graves who are talking about coping with incompetent or abusive managers conflict in the workplace 1-800 to for 22828 is the toll-free number outside the metropolitan area bill. You want to make a (00:09:36) copy. Yes. I'd like to comment for a moment or two just on conflict itself literally right out of the dictionary. It's Shouldn't that arises from unmet needs? And so think of that as a smoke detector, you don't get your needs met you get tense and it's no fun, but something's going wrong. And you better pay attention to it. Like if you go with that water too long, you get thirsty. Hmm. And if you don't drink after well, drink water you going to die and think of it as a signal system. So everybody I don't know anybody that loves conflict but it helps you stay healthy. It's a smoke detector. So to speak and and mentioned expectations and you mentioned that Paula part of the problem here is we don't always know what we expect from each other or ourselves. I'm working with a client right now and there is a new person being hired in and she doesn't think anybody realizes what she can do and so there's tension power struggles. I know what to do, but she's seen is the new kid on the Block and it creates hassles and stress between folks. (00:10:36) Yeah one is that common though that when a new person does come into an organization that again the Expectations of that new person might be higher than the company is willing to give her at that point because they want her to learn the the ground rules and how this company does things and and that people need to wait sometimes (00:10:58) well, I think there's two things going on there probably more than two. But if I'm new I want to demonstrate that I can do something and show off a little bit frankly, but then you being in the company you're trying to find out if I'm going to pay the rules around here. So control is one issue and competence and expertise is a different one. So I've worked with companies and teams where there's friction between the old timers and the rookies and they have each have something off each other very much but there are in each other's hair and it sparks flying and friction all over the place. They become know-it-alls and tanks and they clam up and Palette and just all kinds of behaviors are (00:11:35) exhibited. Well, in fact, you have a whole list of difficult people that that you have particular names to tank being one of them. That's somebody who is a combative and pushy and interrupts and argues with (00:11:49) people. Yeah, that's the steamroller their pushy or interrupt you. They cuss at times is the kind of person. It's already won the argument ten minutes ago. They don't even know it yet. Let me let me comment further on that. You see I think it's an asset to be able to be straightforward with people and new nonsense and direct and to the point and so forth. But the problem is if you Dover if you overdo it you get in trouble you become a tank. So any particular skill can be an asset or style of operation but also can cripple you too. (00:12:21) It was talking about Styles and I call that taxi cab driver in your face kind of a style take thing and I think that in Minnesota, sometimes we suffer from what I call terminally nice communication where we see all conflict as abusive and confrontation is labeled as harassment because we can't get it out on the table when I work with clients from New York City the style and the operating normally. His taxicab driver in your face. And even when they're saying gee it's a great day at sounds like they're about to rip your face off. Well, I know that people who I've talked to who moved here from the east coast in New York in particular are very frustrated with that then that there's so much dancing around a topic from here and it tends to go underground if it isn't confronted and it can be abused on both ends of that Continuum. (00:13:07) You used the phrase dancing around Paula. If you if you do too much of that Dancin and tiptoeing around issues, then the mayor if it's a marriage or work relationship you becomes fragile and brittle and it takes heat to make steel. You'll never strengthen the work relationship. If you're not able to step up in a healthy way confront issues and find out if you're going to get wiped out here retaliated against by leveling and dealing with issues that need any discussion (00:13:36) and we in Balance the nitroglycerin person who's always ready to explode is no fun to work with either. No, not at all. Number of callers on the line with questions for the two of you Bill Hudson and and Graves Our Guest today. They are licensed psychologist and Consultants who helped companies improve negative relationships in the workplace and we will take your call First go ahead please (00:13:59) is that me? Yes, my name is Roger in the course of your conversation. Somebody said you can lose your job. That's exactly what happened to me. (00:14:08) I have time apart. It happens all the (00:14:11) time. I had her I have a particular religious conviction and another person who had a different conviction found something about me that she despised and I think without warrant but she was a kind of a person that doesn't want to get even she wants to wipe out which she did she's so influenced other people and ultimately the owner of the company Who put out a letter that I was fired? Ouch, and so I sued I'm suing at the present time to on this account. But it seems I'm having a very difficult time having the legal people understand that there. Is this religious hatred I mean of nor I mean, I'm not a freak neither is the other person but she's very determined to get rid of me. And that's That's the basis of the the case. (00:15:19) One of the things that I'd like to suggest is a seminar in town called recur earring at the University of st. Thomas and should you be still in the place of not having found other employment sometimes getting a career counselor or someone in your corner to help you Channel some of that frustration and anger and rage that you've got to be feeling in that kind of a trying situation so that you can get your life back on on the road and and heal from that wounding experience (00:15:48) Roger. You mentioned legal counsel not understanding some of the religious aspects of it their beliefs. I know that this is a real place to get into the depths of all of that right here over public radio, but I'm wondering what is it legal counsel needs to know about that. Like why do you want them to understand because maybe somebody else didn't understand you and so I'm not really looking for an answer there from you but get maybe get real clear about what's not being understood and who needs to hear it and why aren't they hearing (00:16:17) it? The perhaps then part of the part of the problem could be his communication of that. Sure. Yeah, but he touches on something that perhaps is not very common, but I can see where it would happen that one person or in an organization decides. They really don't like a particular person and in essence sets out on a vendetta against that person what can the subject of that do what that point boy. That's a real tough one and I think the more support that they can generate for themselves external to the job to keep their head clear because you can get so a workshop workplace. So contaminated by those kinds of Vendetta's fortunately they don't happen often but it's devastating for the recipient of that (00:17:06) one aspect our defense our protection I should say is the new your job and do it. Well, Don't give people ammunition and document document and write it up. Unfortunately work places are not Democratic and so things aren't always Fair people can they have power and they can use it? (00:17:25) Well, and in fact are there just some some places. I know that at public radio there seems to be a variety of Personality certainly with the company this large but there are some people who just wouldn't really like working here, you know, there's a certain. I don't know. I don't really even know how to describe it. But if it yeah the fit that there are some times when you just don't fit into a company's culture the downside of that is if a if a culture is to homogeneous, then they don't allow for the diversity and can culturally discriminate and not allow themselves to open up to other kinds and styles and ways of Eating ways of life backgrounds and so forth. So I think there's a gray area there that has to be attended to taking your calls to to 76 thousand is the number in the Twin Cities the toll-free number outside. The metro area is one eight hundred two, four two two eight two eight and you're on the air in Minnesota Public Radio. (00:18:31) Well, yes sort of answer my question by talking culturally. That was my team a reason why I was calling because that's one of the big factors in work environments the culture the expectation. For example, you get a wide supervisor and a black employee and and expectations are different the black employee my always feel that well, you know, he's doing this to me because I'm black and and and the white supervisor May don't know that it could be the, you know, vice versa or so. I mean, that's a big thing the cultural expectation. I think that should be addressed. I think you guys should try to address that (00:19:09) some more and taking the time to talk. About it. I think that employees can educate and manage their bosses. And I think that if you can provide a cultural opportunity the involve work environment says, hey we can sit down and talk about differences What's Happening Here? It can contribute a whole lot to solving that so that it doesn't have to get adversarial and ultimately litigious. What if there is a black employee though. He sees something that his white boss did that he sees as racist. What do you do in that situation? Do you come in and say that was racist because it seems like that would that would set up another layer of conflict and after generations of being exposed to racist Behavior. It's awfully hard not to do that kind of labeling and to come on pretty strong when it happens. I think the black employee in that case and I'm not trying it's a situation by situation basis, but I think the black employee really does need to confront it and have the confidence in the So that they don't have to feel like they have to swallow it and keep (00:20:15) going and the challenge is learn how to confront it and say what you need to say in a way so that you don't end up crippling yourself and cutting your own throat because that's racist. I mean that might be very very true. But that right there is an attacker challenge said that way so in finding out how finding ways to constructively deal with the issues. I think one of the quickest and most effective ways I know of to deal with it is if I let you know what's going on inside of me my hopes and my hurts and values and joys and dreams then Then we then we connect and then then I'm not as scary to you because you don't know who I am. I'm of different color or about her culture. (00:20:55) Well in many seminars are counseling techniques, I guess is to start with the I message what what I feel or what I think how your behavior affects me. Hmm. We have another caller on the line with questions for Bill Hudson and an Graves. Go ahead. You're on the air. (00:21:14) Good afternoon. Hello. I had a problem when I was I spent nine years working in the Twin Cities with one organization, but some follow employees with insisted on teasing me. I would say, okay I've had enough and it was that was the signal for them to push the throttle. To the red line button and I'd go off like a grenade and doing this five and six times a day did not help me get in the least. I was eventually eventually left the company and the company is now out of business. It was a company in the Twin Cities. (00:21:54) What kind of business was this where they could tease you that much and still get some work done (00:21:58) and the management and the owners because they were managing from a remote location did not see what's going on. Yes and could not control it would could not control it. It was a big problem actually was an auto parts business. (00:22:14) Well this kind of speaks to the whole issue of sexual harassment as well or any kind of her being the butt of anything is no fun and humor is great in the workplace. As long as you're not the target of humor if humor is inclusive. It can really release a lot of Creative Energy if humor is directed at one person as the Target or Step into put-downs. That's really tough. The other piece of that is how you get hooked by it and like the bully on the playground. There are internal strategies that you sometimes have to use before the external change (00:22:47) happens. In my link language and lingo the teasing is like sniper Behavior hit-and-run cheap shots teasing to the point. That is too much and it sounded to me like you handle it quite. Well you leveled with them, but then they then they knew they were getting to you. So then they do even more than your get into a vicious cycle and the absentee boss the owners were not on scene and then that means the people doing the teasing have political protection because nobody knows that's going on then you end up exploding like that red line that grenade. Unfortunately, there's no magic and that's why people keep coming to workshops because if there was a magic there would be all the answers by now. (00:23:28) This sounds like something that happens in while I know it happens in grade school and Junior High but adults in the workplace. Oh, yes. (00:23:35) Oh, yes. Oh, yes very much. (00:23:38) We finish our unfinished business from our families of origin and our early life experiences in our world of work and although we're adults very often inside of that adult body is a very childlike response to our own hurts. And sometimes if we have been the recipient of that kind of teasing or bullying or sniping there's an unconscious attempt to be on the side of the power rather than the side of the impotent person and we inadvertently and unconsciously do that. Yeah. It happens all the time should this employee have gone to the owners and complained without knowing more about the culture? I'd hate to give a prescription here. I think that it sounds like this person did the wise thing which was getting out of a culture that just wasn't productive and helpful to them as rapidly as (00:24:27) possible. It's risky to do an end run or to go to the owners. But if your jobs at stake here for professional sanity a personal sanity's is take why not? In fact, if you don't tell the owners the managers the bosses then that's a nice way to manipulate them. You keep them in the dark and underground so but it's sort of like it is a risky procedure. So you have to decide it's like a cost cost of cost pay off. What's the word I'm looking for here. You judge whether it's going to cost you too much or not. Yeah. Okay. (00:24:59) It's 28 minutes before 12 noon and we're talking about dealing with problems that a negative relationships in the workplace. Our guests today are Bill Hudson and and Graves who are consultants in this area to a variety of organizations businesses Industries and also conduct seminars, which will be talking telling you about at the end of the program to to Even 6,000 is the number to call in the Twin Cities. If you got some problems at work that you'd like to talk with them about one eight hundred two four two two eight two eight is the toll-free number and you are on the air. No, (00:25:32) good morning, Mr. Hudson, Miss Grace. Good morning. My wife was experiencing emotional. I call it harassment stress at the workplace and it is a church denominational nursing home. And she really chose that place because of the nature of the great care that they give to the ugly segment of the population. But at any rate and trying to work that out, she had talked with her immediate supervisor several times about her job performance. The program is a volunteer coordination program and its new and there was some question as to how much she had accomplished but at any rate that's water over the dam because she was fired. Several weeks ago and I guess my question. I have a lot of concerns which I live my wife talked over but the bottom line is she didn't feel there was any verbal or written warning for the firing? And is this a common standard or allowable practice nowadays, you know in business or industry other than if there's a layoff due to cutbacks where they can give a firing on the spot right in the office without any (00:26:55) warning you talking about performance-related firing if there needs to be more warning, do you know anything about that? No, and I'm not a lawyer and I think really there are a lot of good resources in town that could give you that kind of legal advice (00:27:11) likewise. I'll say the same thing as soon as you said that I thought legal issue. There's a Aspects of that that perhaps you could check out but my experience of it too is often there's reasons people get fired, but they're not public you find out by the find other reasons to use for the termination. So you may never find out there your wife may never find out it's too bad that happened but the immediate objective is how to help her. He'll move on from here. If you keep focusing back on what happened. Then you get blocked from moving ahead to The Next (00:27:45) Step. Did she get any behavioral feedback on the inadequacy of a (00:27:49) performance? It was passing verbal comments and they in fact had a consultant come in who was going to review the position and her performance and she had asked, you know, if she could meet with with this person and they never did give her the chance and after they met with a consultant then a week or so after that they simply fired her but at any rate, she has healed very well from that and in fact was hoping Resign but is firing is actually such a big deal nowadays as far as the record or resume. It doesn't seem like it is from what I've heard as far as going on to the next career The Next Step. (00:28:29) I think you're right there in today's economy with so much downsizing you have very talented people pounding the sidewalk looking for jobs and unfortunately being underemployed at times simply because the positions are not there that they were let go from so yes, I think much more so today than years ago. If there is a termination on your record, it has much less impact on your employability. It's gone to another caller with question for an Graves Bill Hudson. Go ahead. (00:29:01) Hello. Yes. I'm at a pay phone. So I can't hear you. Oh, okay. Well be able to take it over. Exclusive relationship with one of my colleagues and in my case long story short on being considered for promotion. I've been in my position six years and now it's between myself and this other person who has this friendship with my boss. So do you have any comments or (00:29:34) suggestions? Are you talking about a romantic relationship or or just that they work very closely (00:29:41) together. They talked about a homogeneous (00:29:50) sounds like you feel like you may be one down when it comes to the competition between you and the other person and my advice would would replicate what Bill said earlier do the best job that you can be your own PR agent think carefully through how you can present yourself in the best light and convince anybody in the company that you that will be interviewing you that you are the best candidate for (00:30:14) that job. If all things were equal and I knew I could work better with you than somebody else than I probably hire you or promote you given all other things equal but sometimes it's good old boys are good old girls working with each other and so they have the inside track and it isn't fair. So sometimes the deck is stacked against you and it isn't easy. (00:30:39) Let's go to another caller on that down note to give her more encouragement of go ahead please with your question. All (00:30:45) right. Hello. Thank you for taking my call in October. I resigned from a position in the private sector. I was very good at my job. I had been at it for ten years inherited a secretary when I took the job a new boss came on the scene in my beginning of my third year. It's a very long story and I don't want to take your time to give all the particulars over and over again in my evaluation. I had said things about the work environment needs to be improved. It's not conducive to productivity. I had an extreme personal loss a year ago and felt that the workplace did not lend itself at all to my particular loss and whole bunch of things just Of no bald. I finally decided after talking to lots of people at the same institution who would say to me. Why don't you go for counseling and I would say I am going to quit the job. So I don't have to go for counseling in essence and still at the institution in a different position. It's not as good a job. I think probably one of the things that happened was I was too nice in the job and I did not take a stronger stand and that's you know, beside the point. I've quit I'm beginning to like myself better. I was beginning to not like myself in that job, but I still have this incredible anger and feel a great sense of loss because I miss my job and maybe this is the whole nother program. I guess I'm sort of stuck. So I'll hang up and listen to what you have to say (00:32:28) having a lot of that anger stored is a common experience for people that have had a negative relationship that hasn't been resolved and healed. Particularly, if an organization wasn't responsive at all to your personal crisis and it sounds like that may also be a part of the stored feelings that you have. I do think that to in today's world going for counseling does not automatically mean that you are ill or that something is wrong with you but counseling really is a good place to work through that and get some healing so that you can go on I want to support your decision to move to a position that now gives you the sense of self-esteem that you didn't have or that was being chipped away at that other position. It sounds like you really have succeeded in taking good care of yourself. (00:33:17) You said you quit so you wouldn't have to go to counseling and as soon as you said that I thought of while I wonder if I went to counseling then I could have a choice of whether I quit or not. And if you don't put your cards on the table and say what you need to say to folks then you sort of feel like you let yourself down and you get anger on yourself. And when you quit I'd like to have you think of it this way. My definition is quitting is when you give up on yourself, if you if you let go of a position or a job because you have a new clear set of objectives. I'm not quitting though. What did you just walk away from it? Then I can sure see why somebody angry with (00:33:53) oneself. Because if it's not meeting your needs then then you're not meeting your own (00:33:59) needs. Mostly. It's that plus u so like I let myself down. Yeah, I didn't stand up for myself. I'm angry at myself too. (00:34:05) Hmm. Sounds like counseling. Uh, yes, it's going down and to another caller with a question for Bill Hudson and and Graves. Good morning. (00:34:15) The only thing I would like to add to this because listening to all of this. I think I've had all of the different aspects of the collars the new manager who comes to the area and kind of comes in with an attitude of I'm just going to rule this place in everyone's going to follow the way I like them to follow and I guess what I'd like to see I found some help through counseling with the employees assistant program and through friends and I'm still in my job and the manager has continued to have problems and I think She may be on her way out and I guess I just want to say if you can find support from other co-workers and sometimes counseling (00:35:03) what a nice thing to say. Thank you for calling in with those (00:35:05) comments one of the types of difficult bosses that will I call them an Intimidator boss, they feel threatened. Sometimes they feel incompetent or impotent or week until they cover it up by looking good and controlling everything and rule in the show. So if you if you threaten them in any way then they might attack you that's why I call them Intimidators and they have to be in charge of things quite often. And so if you threaten them or appear to be weak that can cause troubles for (00:35:36) you is that the same kind of person who would come into an organization and say this place it really needs help. You know, there is there is no organization. You people don't know what you're doing. Just let me fix it and and then we'll be on the right track, even if it isn't done. A real threatening kind of way. It seems that that kind of undermines the the self-esteem of all the employees there as well. It certainly does and that the use and abuse of authority is one of the issues that a lot of managers don't recognize they assume that when they move into a managerial role. They have to lead Direct Control until there's a wonderful book called dinosaur brains by Bernstein and Rosen and they talk about lizard logic and one of the ways that they describe lizard logic is the authoritarian kind of Boss who is as bill says threatened unless they are using their managerial power and making their mark on the organization regardless of the consequences on the employees who were there and there's no sense of participating together to solve the problems. They have to lead Direct Control until (00:36:43) and I'd like to add that respect has to be earned. You can't do it by pushing infect you get disrespect and it'll get you into Vicious Cycles and power struggles. (00:36:52) So what should a boss do if they do see that? There is an organization that's just kind of wandering around and there's no clear Direction and in there needs to be something done about it getting clear on the mission setting goals clearly establishing the standards of your expectations of performance and doing it through those objective setting ways is far wiser, because then you can collaboratively align with your employees to achieve those and everybody knows what the standards and goals are and then there's much more clarity and a sense of direction and I think that mission and goal has to be stated and restated clearly and it's even better if they can be developed by the employees as well as that manager who comes in and who attempts to just lay it on the organization on the other side on the other side of that coin are also people who have been in a job for so long. They lose that impetus to stay clear about the goals and objectives. And the reason why they are earning their salary and there's a sense of entitlement and sometimes it's the dissonance between the man. Your who comes in knowing he has to account he or she has to accomplish something and those employees who have lost that Vision that again you need the communication on what's going on around here. You need energy then mmm-hmm, 15 minutes before 12 noon, you're listening to midday on Minnesota Public Radio and we're talking about problems in the workplace. Whether it's with a boss or with a co-worker our guests today are Bill Hudson and an Graves who are consultants in this area and you can call us here in the Twin Cities at 2276 thousand. If you have a question or outside the metro area the toll-free number 1-800 to 422828 and you are on the air. Go ahead, please. (00:38:34) Yes. I am from the Middle East originally, I work at in September 1994 the company in Chaska and because of the situation in the Middle East, I believe I'm not sure the other employees was what harassing me and insulting me all the time November of the same year. Had a heart attack and when I went back to work after hospitalization, they pushed me too much and they have asked me to much insulted me including the supervisor, which I complain to him. And he didn't do anything and I complained to the department manager and they didn't do anything either and At Last I decided to complain and writing and they fired some employees and the accept me for another department but lots of December I I got disabled because of the doctor told me my heart condition is very bad. I can't work. Do I have a right to sue them or not? (00:39:34) Another legal question? We're not lawyers and I really think you need to direct that question to someone who has the expertise that you're looking for. But what an example of how much damage stress can do? Yes. Oh, yeah in the workplace and what a hard reception to. New country (00:39:54) I can hear the difficulty. In fact that says it mildly the pain and all that. I think everybody has a right to sue the question. Is it going to be worth it? So any attorney worth their salt will say I don't think you have a case you might want to watch out for Revenge because that could eat you up over the years (00:40:12) so Revenge on his part right want to get back at the (00:40:16) Cubs right? You can you can make it worse for yourself retaliation. It's off can be very destructive. So if you have a case you have a case. But don't blindly pursue it get legal (00:40:29) counsel. Okay, let's go on to another caller with a question. Go ahead, please. (00:40:33) Oh, yeah site. I work for a small Aerospace manufacturer. And as we all know that industry is decimated turmoil nowadays bias. It is this company does not is not open to being Progressive. I guess I'll say there are several of us that have extensive training and whatever and it worked there for a number of years that the managers are not really open to trying to do things a better way and I was just wondering and we've tried we think it's just about everything to say Hey, you know, we're gonna go under if something's not done here. I just wonder if you have any suggestions of how we might be able to get across to them that they're not really paying attention to what's going on and it's causing a lot of friction within the (00:41:24) workplace. I'm interested not in what You have told management, but how you have told management about how you see things? (00:41:31) Well, we have it's not like it's been confrontational. It's been more of in a way of suggesting of maybe we you know, we think maybe this could be done better if we did it this way, but every time we do something like that, it's like well, we're just we're just the hourly workers and whatever and we really don't know how to how things like that go. You know, we're not we're not the engineers. So we don't know anything about even though we're the ones that are doing the job and it's getting very frustrating for a number of (00:42:03) us and you have no access to the strategic planning that might be going on at an executive level. (00:42:08) No we well we are we're owned by the a foreigner who only comes by about once a year and when he does he likes to go around and talk to people but when he does that there are the local managers are there and everybody feels intimidated we Really have access to the the upper echelon. And our message is never really reach that level and we are getting very frustrated with it. (00:42:34) So you're saying that when this owner comes around you also are too intimidated to ask for an opportunity to share some of your ideas with him or her. (00:42:44) Yes, we have asked for that opportunity, but we have never got any feedback on it either a yes or a no and we we just you know, there are a lot of like I said, there are a lot of people they're getting very frustrated with this and and there are several people that are you know have staked their working lifetime at this place and the way things are in the industry. It doesn't look very good for us and we were not you know, we're not trying to you know, tell them how to run their business but we think that we have suggestions that can make it smoother for everyone and it is there's conflicts that are developing that weren't there before and it's because of this and I for one am trying Cool, you know keep that from happening (00:43:29) isn't this quite common that employees feel they have no voice in the company. It's changing as the participative management and democracy sized organizational concepts are opening up management to listening to the people who are on the line who really have the first line contact with customers Etc. But my heart goes out to someone like this who has good ideas and management isn't listening to it (00:43:55) or they heard it, but you don't know it. Yeah, it would be like me calling you about a problem five weeks ago and you're moving on it, but I don't know that maybe you are working to maybe earn. I don't know so I'll get frustrated feeling devalued. Why don't they listen to me? I think in terms of dealing with conflict. Difficult situations and so forth is really only three things people can do is change it to accept it or get out one of the three and that raises questions how much sanity how much energy patients sweat heartache money. Do you tie up? I'm not talking about hitting right every time things get tough. But I guess I'm in business because people don't handle things. Well sometimes me they get sick (00:44:36) well, and if you have the ownership of the company located somewhere else there may not be anybody with more than a traditional status quo. Let's hold on to things as they are now and wait to see what happens kind of mindset in the local management. And that is a sad situation. Well particularly in that industry if it is indeed he in such turmoil then maybe nobody is making any decisions at this point. (00:45:02) That's very well put I'd like to make one additional comment here because of the situation in that particular industry and what you're describing here. I think it might be well worth your time to start thinking about other possibilities. He's in it might take time to get there too. But if you don't start the planning process, then you're going to feel trapped and suffocated and it feeds back on itself. (00:45:21) So maybe focus more on his own individual new employment situation rather than the company's. Yeah, and he may have already done it but try to network within the company and find someone who is receptive to listening and or getting some of your suggestions or just the request for opportunities in writing being verbal about it may not be the way things happen in that organization. And if you can get some help getting it on paper and getting it addressed getting it out there and being relentless in you're pushing for the opportunity to share your ideas with those people who are in position to make some decisions. We have a number of callers on the line now just a few minutes remaining in the program. So we will get to as many of you as we can but we don't want to short shrift you either so we'll answer as best we can and you're on the air next. (00:46:12) Yes, ma'am. I have a question about exempt employees and excessive work hours. I do work in a profession which does require an excessive number of hours in my position is exempt. However, in the last five years, I've accumulated the equivalent of over 2800 compensatory hours based on a 40 hour week and wondering if there any is established Court precedents regarding what an employer can consider reasonable. All these hours have been acquired as a result of the schedule that has been determined by my employer and over which I have no (00:46:43) control. Well again, we cannot answer any legal questions on this program. These are licensed psychologist who deal with human behavior in the workplace and I guess that I would again recommend that you seek legal counseling for such a question. However, it does lead of course to two questions that you probably do deal with in terms of how much overtime can you work without being rewarded exempt employees are hired on the basis of getting the job. Done and what your idea of excessive hours are a may be very different than the organizations and if there's a cultural norm that you put in 80 hours a week. That's an organizational or cultural norm. And I'm not sure that assuming that you can accumulate compensatory hours means that you're justified in taking them. But again that really is a situation by situation base. So you would have to check that whether you've got a contract or if there is you're in a union or something that that spells that (00:47:43) out raises the question of you personally taking care of yourself a to work with too many companies where they say we'll take comp time. We I can't take comp time. I'm working and it just piles up in piles up. So when is he enough enough? (00:47:56) And that's one of those dysfunctional cultural norms that really need to be confronted. Let's go to another caller with a question for Bill Hudson and and Graves you're on the air. (00:48:05) I attended a course would Bill Hudson couple months ago, but I wanted to say that I'm It was very helpful. And I find myself. I'm resorting back to some of the training materials that he'd given me because I might deal with difficult people but I also have a difficult boss. And so I find it sometimes hard that I my boss doesn't remember all the time. And so I feel like I have to document and then when I need to get some help or something, which is were very short staffed. Now I mentioned to him that one time that I've asked you numerous times for helping you haven't provided that me help and I mentioned how many times a document times I'd mention this to him and I felt really afraid to mention his to him because It's the only source of information that I had to say that I've been documenting this and that I just need some help and I'm pretty burnt out in (00:49:06) did he tell you that he get you some help when (00:49:09) you call them they have but it's been six months later now. I mean, so we're getting some help in here now, but it was at the point when I mentioned that you know, I've asked you numerous times and finally you're going to give me some help then they responded pretty quickly when I mentioned that this isn't you've said this several (00:49:31) times. So you confronted him at that point. This is more than once that I've just said it to you. He might be using forgetting as a cop-out to maybe remembers everything (00:49:40) or he so stressed that he really truly doesn't remember true. Yeah. Let me ask you a question about some of the ways that you do this. Is it possible that you could identify clearly even on paper what your goals or objectives? Those are the projects that you're working on and ask him to give you some choices. I can get this done or this done. But without additional help they're both not going to get done or I can get three out of these five done or whatever. And in that way bring home more clearly to him the fact that not having enough help means that some managerial decisions have to be made good suggestions and we're going to have to end it there. I'm afraid we have a number of callers still on the line, but we have run out of time on this particular program. You may be interested to know though that and graves will be teaching a couple of seminars this month on these very Topics in this will be at the University of st. Thomas and st. Paul know Minneapolis campus of the Minneapolis campus. I'm sorry. Okay. The first one is this coming week. It's strategies for managing human behavior. That's June 15 and there is one on June 24th called rebuilding negative work relationships and you can call nine six to forty six hundred for more information on those. Seminars also one that I think you're probably going to get a lot of people showing up for in September. It's called coping with incompetent or abusive management. And that's the the situations in which you're dealing with a difficult boss and maybe some of the things that you can do as well and Bill Hudson, you will be taking part in this one. (00:51:17) No, I won't and on our end and are not doing any Co teaching at this point. Okay. I'm teaching him number of classes this fall at the area community colleges on difficult bosses teams and (00:51:27) people. Okay. So contact one of the Metropolitan Area Community College's for more information on those boy this went fast. I wish that we had more time. I want to thank both of you for coming in today on this very important. Thank you for having us for and Graves Bill Hudson time now one minute before 12 noon. I'm polish rotor.