We are pleased to present today's speaker. Dr. Ellen bocek member of the African National Congress executive committee prominent South African Theologian close Confidant and advisor to Nelson Mandela. He became director of the foundation for peace and Justice in 1983 chairperson of the African National Congress Western Cape division in 1991 and has been recognized internationally for his work in the areas of peace and Justice. He is the recipient of numerous Awards including the Robert F. Kennedy human rights award in 1985 the Harvard Foundation Award in 1988, the international human rights award in 1989 and the union medal from the union Theological Seminary in 1990. Dr. Bozak received a PhD in theology from the John Calvin foundation in the Netherlands and has been awarded doctor of divinity degrees from Yale University Victoria University in Toronto, the University of Geneva the City University of New York and others Dr. Bull sack served a number of years as president of the world Alliance of reformed churches a group that includes most Presbyterian and reformed churches throughout the world. all of his adult life has been a central figure in the South African struggle to end apartheid. He has given leadership in both the church and in the public Society in South Africa and has been a frequent speaker and seeker of support in the United States. And in other parts of the world the eighth City Tour that he is presently engaged in had to be interrupted he flew back for for a quick two days at the Hani funeral in South Africa and then came back to finish his tour in this country. He goes from here to Atlanta, Georgia and Washington DC and then at the end of the week, we'll return to South Africa. He is being sponsored in this United States Tour by to ecumenical organizations with offices in New York. One of them the acronym code lco deall standing for coordination and development the other Theology and a global context Association both of them seeking to support the efforts in South Africa to bring a just and peaceful. Conclusion to the difficulties that have transpired in that land. We are fortunate to have dr. Bocek here today to discuss the future of South Africa dreams and reality after apartheid doctor bozak. Thank you very much for the opportunity to be with you today and to speak a little bit about the current situation in my country. Most of you will remember that last year in May the talks the multi-party talks that are meant to lead to elections and to a new Democratic dispensation in South Africa had broken down there were many reasons for that. But the most important thing is that the talks have begun again this time there are more political parties that have joined both from what one could easily call the left and also from the extreme right wing side 26 parties in all People who have asked the question why have you gone through such lengths to include as many as twenty six parties and why also include parties whom we know do not have a significant support base in South Africa at the moment. The reasons are really very simple ladies and gentlemen, we wanted to be as inclusive as possible because we really wanted to give every political party that claimed any kind of support the opportunity to participate in these talks to help shape the way in which South Africa would be going. to make their contribution to the kind of future that they think our country should have we also wanted them to participate in the talks so that they could participate in the elections that we hope will be held soon. The elections of course is the only way through which we can determine what the real support of all these political parties really is and so if you have them here in the Preparatory discussions and you have them in the elections, then it would be clear to all who would receive what kind of support and then it would be easier to bring all parties to the point where they will have to accept the outcome of a democratic election. But thirdly also we wanted to make the participation in the writing of the Constitution of South Africa as broad as possible. It is not the constitution of a particular political party. It must be the constitution of the nation of a South Africa that will be fundamentally different from the one that we have known up to now and so we hope that when the elections are held and a constituent assembly is established among the tasks that it will have would be to do the task of parliament but also to draft a new Constitution that the parties that will have reach a certain threshold will participate in the constituent assembly and in the writing of the Constitution We hope that if the multi-party talks resume fully now in may by June or July. We should be having the first phase of the transitional government called the transitional executive Council a situation in which the South African government will still be your running the Affairs of the country, but alongside it from the multi-party talks. We will have selected people who will serve in different capacities and who will jointly begin to administer the Affairs of the country. One of the main tasks of this transitional executive Council will be to prepare the country for these elections that we hope will take place no later than April of 1994 when that happens and you have the constituent assembly out of the constituent assembly. We will then appoint an intern an interim. Government of national unity and that government of national Unity after the Constitution will become the government of national Unity for the next five years. There are reasons why at least the African National Congress. Has decided that it is the best way to go via a transitional executive Council through elections to a constituent assembly to an interim government of national unity and to a government of national Unity until the next election. negative reasons some of them because we know that in the next period this new democratic government, although democratically elected by the people will not have control over the security forces the security forces the police and the Army will still be the security forces that kept apartheid in place for so long. The Civil Service will not be our civil service. It will still be the Civil Service produced by a part in the civil service with an apartheid mindset to take a little while to make the changes that are necessary in order to bring about a full integration of all the Democratic forces in the Civil Service and other Departments of government. We also thought that one must try to accommodate as much as possible the fears of white people. I'm not one of those who think that the fears of white people should dictate the process of change in South Africa. Some of the fears are genuine. Some of the fears are rather silly and I have found that the greatest fear that white people have is not so much that we will ruin the economy because they have already ruined the economy. It's not so much that we will not have a democratic government because the Constitution will guarantee that and the proposals that have come for the Constitution from the African National Congress are very very good Their Fear. I think their greatest fear is that we will do to them what they have done to us. Now, these are things that we cannot control in the sense that we can tell them look we will not do to you what you did to everybody else. It's not Our way of doing things but they still remain afraid if we then could tell them you have a constitution that will guarantee your rights. You will have a government of national unity in which even those parties who will be the losers will be represented according to the proportion of the vote that they get. If we then can give them the guarantee that the government will be subject to the Constitution. Not as it is now. End up there will be a Shepherd constitutional Court as the agency has proposed to make sure that the constitution is enforced and that people's rights under the Constitution are protected. Then we will take all of those fears into consideration, but they of course are positive reasons as well. The ANC thought it is good for the unity of the country to try and build a little slower than we would want to but to try and build an idea of nationhood that my country has never known. To try and tell people even though we know that you will lose an election. We will invite you to participate so that whatever it is that your interests are your own desires still for the future if they do not clash with our democratic ideals will be represented in government. They initially thought it would be good. If there is such a thing for National reconciliation our nation needs healing our nation have wounds that will probably never heal. this is a small step to say to people your participation is absolutely necessary to make sure that we build the sense of identity this new sense of identity that we hope all of South Africa's people will embrace but ladies and gentlemen, it would be unwise in fact it would be foolish to think that just because we have these ideals and these wonderful ideas of a government of national Unity that the problems will automatically disappear. There will be huge and difficult problems for us to face in the next few years. The legacy of apartheid will not go away very soon and whatever changes you make. A system that has controlled every single facet of life for more than 40 years in South Africa will not be dismantled that easily the attitudes that apartheid has produced the racism and all of those things will not disappear overnight. And so this new government along with other organs of Civil Society will have to deal with the legacy of Apartheid. My country faces huge socio-economic problems over sixty percent of the black population live in conditions of chronic poverty unemployment is as high as 40% in the black community. The government has followed for decades a policy of what I would call purposeful neglect. In education in housing in health all of these areas. We will have a backlog that will not be easy to wipe out we have A government that has indulged in waste in mismanagement and in corruption that has produced a weak economy in South Africa that has produced mistrust in government and in governmental institutions, and that has produced a society in which the morality of everything we do is questioned. This will not be easy. It will not be easy. Our people have expectations. I don't want to say this out front so that you know when question time comes where I stand on this issue there are many people who talk about the expectations of the oppressed people in South Africa as if it is a specter of Doom that we are looking forward to and that will crush everything else and they also make the mistake of juxtaposing white people's fears with the expectations of black people. I would like to suggest to you today. The expectations that black people have are real. But that they are reasonable and that they are Universal. What is it that we want we want good and just government government that will not steal your money government that will do the job that they will have been put there for we want peace in our streets and in our neighborhoods. We want a police force that we can trust that can really be a friend of the people and not the murderers of the children of our people. We want a justice system legal system that will guarantee us equality in the course, which we haven't had before. We want Justice in the course. We want access to the opportunities that that rich Nation can offer to every single South Africa. We want good education for our children. And we want a decent roof over our heads. I would suggest that these expectations our expectation that every American has we want the same no more. No less. These expectations will have to be met but this new government will have to tell our people That all of these expectations cannot be met and certainly not immediately. That we will have to wait a little while. That yes, we can see that. There are seven million South Africans who live in Shanty towns and under plastic sheets and we will have to build homes, but we cannot build all these homes in one here. Yes, we know about the unemployment rate, but we cannot create jobs for everybody in one here. We know that you do not trust government because of their experiences over so many decades but you have to learn to trust this government, but our people will have gone through the election will have gone through a crisis that we are going through now people have voted for a government and mr. Mandela will be the president. But in that government of national Unity will also be the faces of people like, mr. De klerk who by rights should not have been there, but whom we have invited to join. It's going to be difficult. It's difficult. How do you tell an alienated angry youth who have lost their youth for the sake of the struggle for justice in South Africa and because of the Discrimination of apartheid that they must wait another few years for the Fulfillment of their own dreams and their needs it's going to be very difficult. Built this in this context where other people are saying the African National Congress is selling out because it is negotiating with white people. This is not the way to go and trying to feed on an atmosphere of militancy and creating that atmosphere where it doesn't exist. It is in this context that you must understand the death of Chris Hani. Who as a soldier at laid down his gun and supported fully the process towards peace and democracy in South Africa who will week before he died at called on all our people especially the young people to put their trust not so much. In the leadership in the politicians, but in the process that will lead to democracy because it is necessary who condemned After Time a week before his death those in the pan-africanist Congress who still talks about the armed struggle who go out there to kill white people to create this chaos who condemned the violence from the right wing and said, this is not the way to go. An honest politician who was not afraid to put on the line his own popularity with his own constituency a remarkable man. One of the most popular leaders of South Africa's history of struggle. He's dead now. Killed by someone who is not even a South African by someone who has been given a home in our country while our government has denied our people at home in the land of our birth. You must understand the anger of our people because of this. It's a Justified anger. It's real anger. and I I would like to say to you that I am glad that our people are angry because if you were not angry at such a deed. Something essential would have been missing from our own humanity and our own dignity as a people, but I would like to say something else. In the midst of all of this agency has said we will not call off negotiations because Chris Hani his dedication to the peace process is our dedication to the peace process. We must continue the quickest way to reach our goal of empowering our people to create for South Africa the Democracy. It should have had long ago that process must come and must continue and must lead us to the negotiations and must lead us through the negotiations to the elections. So the commitment is there it will not stop that. I went back as dr. Price told you and spoke at least five times Memorial services for Chris Hani last week. I noticed apart from the anger. I noticed one other thing which I want to share with you. I noticed that there were at all of these gatherings more white people and I have thought there would be. And I was surprised. And I saw their faces as I spoke. And even as I tickle ated the anger and the sense of loss and the tragedy and what we feel in our hearts. I could sense that their reaction is also different than I had expected. They didn't come to me and say well, you know, we understand but you could have been a little more gentle. They understood they understood. Joe slovo the chairman of the Communist Party in one of the services thread a moving letter from an African speaking white person in which he expressed his own hurt at the death of Chris Hani, but then he said I don't know really how to say this because I'm a white South African and I'm sometimes fearful of the future. This is I have watched you now, and I now know. That our country's future is safe in your hands. How can I help? I think ladies and gentlemen that amidst the pain and the tragedy and the loss and the suffering and the confusion and the uncertainty. The one thing that I came away with from home last week is the thing that sustains me now as I have to go back. I think that Chris Hani in his death had succeeded in doing what would have taken us a long long time. I think he has succeeded in bringing us all black and white as a nation closer together. If my sense is right, I only senses. I don't know this I only sense if my sense is right and I pray to God it is then I think through the darkness of this time. There is one light that shines and then it is our duty to grasp that lights and not allow the forces of evil and darkness to extinguish it and it is with that hope that I go back to South Africa and with a certain knowledge that even now we know more certain than before with our People's future is secure. Our nation's future is secure Our Hope and struggle have not been in vain the pain and the suffering of not been in vain the difficulties that we Face will be overcome and our Dream will be turned into a reality. Thank you. God bless you. Thank you very much. Dr. Bozak. That was a moving speech you were listening to dr. Bozak speaking to the Minnesota meeting in Downtown Minneapolis at the Marriott City Center Hotel. His remarks are being carried live on the station's of Minnesota Public Radio. We're going to start with a question from Bob White who is of the editorial page of the Star Tribune paper here in Minneapolis. Dr. Bull sack. I want to put to you the question that the writer of the letter to Joe slovo put for for a decade and more the debate in this country has been over such matters as sanctions boycotts and so on the situation has changed and a lot of people in the United. It's in Minnesota would say how can I help? What would you advise Americans individually or through their government to do at this juncture? Let me Begin by saying in terms of the sanctions the agency at its last executive committee meeting took a resolution on sanctions. It says in effect this at as soon as a date for the elections has been set and as soon as the transitional executive Council, in other words, the first phase of the transitional government has been put in place the sanctions regarding finances loans grants investment and so forth must be lifted. And so we not only talking about Federal sanctions that are in place on that may still be in place. We talked about all of those sanctions enacted by the states in the United States. the counties and the cities we are asking that people should do that and it would be good if that discussion could become a discussion focused on these issues because we are talking about something that could happen fairly soon and the ANC has urged its supporters in the United States to make sure that this message goes out to the companies know this but the people in the anti-apartheid movement who have been so faithful and their support over so many years should also know this but there is a broader task for this nation seeing the position that you have our hope that from this Administration and from the United States would go out a clear signal for the support of the ongoing process towards democracy in South Africa, and I mean not supporting those people whom some people may regard as the Guardians of democracy namely those who are white That will be a mistake because those are the very people who for so long have shown that they know nothing about democracy. Not for support for certain black leaders that have been chosen by successive administrations because they liked what they heard from these leaders but support for the process of democracy in South Africa, which will Empower our people to choose their own leaders and to respect that process to respect our choice and to respect the outcome of our voice when mr. Bush lost the election last year. He said a wonderful thing which I will never forget. He said we bow to the Majesty of the democratic process. I hope that the United States will help. In South Africa all of us and the United States itself will bow to the Democratic process in South Africa. It hasn't happened very often in the past. You've done it here but not elsewhere not in Angola and not in Nicaragua and other places. So let's let's let's hope that this would be clear. I would hope also that would be able to depend on you to accompany us on that road. You do have a little bit more experience than we have in the area of practicing democracy. We would need all the help we can get and I would I would I would hope that America would fulfill that role. I'm getting carried away. But let me say just one more thing, you know, the United States has exerted leadership over many many many years, especially after World War II and that leadership has been based on your economic superiority and on your military superiority guns and tanks and nuclear weapons and missiles. For the first time that is no longer the case. But I am amazed at how people in the world are looking at this country now with something new for the first time. This country has the opportunity to exert that leadership not based on the instruments of that kind of power. But on the power that comes from knowing what is right and knowing what is wrong a moral decision can be made here. It could affect the history of the world as much as the fall of the Berlin Wall. I hope that the US will grasp this opportunity. Maybe in that sense the time for this nation has come as never before. Thank you. Dr. Vostok. Our next question is from Robert Froakie. Dr. Bozak. I'm under the impression that mr. Bethel lazy. If I pronounce the name correctly has basic disagreements with the ANC if my impression is correct. I'd like to know what are those disagreements and how significant are they? Yes, I would also like to know what those disagreements are because mr. Buthelezi is not clear. Let me first say something just to put this in perspective. Now. I'm very happy that you asked the question. There is a persistent misconception in this country and elsewhere a that. Mr. Buthelezi is a great leader in South Africa with Incredible support be that mr. Buthelezi is the representative of 6 or 7 million Zulus. Nothing could be further from the truth. Mr. Buthelezi does not represent six or seven million Zulus his position. As a leader is a direct result of the policies of apart age which placed him as chief minister of a bounty stand government in kwazulu. That's number one. Number two. He's International position has been given him by mr. Reagan and mr. Bush and mrs. Thatcher and Chancellor Kohl who have invited him and elevated him to a position that does not reflect his position at home. You need to understand that and so that is why I talked a little bit just now about the leaders that we choose. It is important that people understand that the most recent poll as far as poles go the most recent poll says that mr. Buthelezi will lose an election against the ANC in kwazulu-natal. I'm not talking about the towel in his own Homeland in kwazulu-natal that secondly, mr. Buthelezi support in the country Nationwide hovers around 2% six months ago. It was 5% It's now two percent such a man is not in direct competition with mr. Mandela the ifp. The inkatha Freedom Party is not the direct competitor of the African National Congress. And so I hope that people will understand that so he's disagreement now. Is really the two things he doesn't want elections and I can understand why. And secondly he wants. The Region's to have so much power in the regional government that they can override the decisions that central government will make and he wants the Region's to have the right to secede if they wish now, of course, we cannot give in to that. We we understand that you must have strong central government, but not so strong as to dilute every single bit of power that the region has have regions must have their own powers and we want to strengthen the regions in a way that is reasonable. But we cannot allow somebody to write into our Constitution that a region will have the right to secede if it is not happy with a decision that is made by the National Assembly. And so those are the two main and the other thing is the shall I put this a personal problem that mr. Butler's you must deal with himself really because if you really with all your heart and soul want to be the president Didn't of the country and you know, you're not going to be then you have a problem. But that's a problem that nobody can help you with only yourself. Thank you very much doctor bozak as you can tell the mics aren't working in this room, but they but they they are on the radio. So we're fine. You're listening to dr. Alan bozak who's a member of the executive committee of the African National Congress in South Africa. He speaking to the Minnesota meeting on the station's of Minnesota Public Radio. We have a question now from Tom Lehman. Dr. Bozek. I know that in the past. You've been a leader within the church Community. Can you update us on what the status of the churches in South Africa right now and what are the struggles in the issues that they're working on in facing most women the the church in South Africa right now is going through a very difficult period after you will remember the kind of leadership that came from the churches in the 1980s and the church was at the Forefront of the struggle at almost every level took initiatives and so forth the name is that that people knew then was not so much the name of Nelson Mandela, but for instance the name of Archbishop Desmond Tutu and so forth. After February 2nd 1990 when the political organizations were unbanned and most of the Clark said we are going to take this bold step into negotiations the role and the context of everything changed but the role of the church changed also then all of a sudden the church that had been a church that said no to apartheid a no to the government and no to their unjust laws and so forth have to learn to live with a new situation in which you have to say. Yes to Something's and no to some other things has been very difficult for the church. The church is confused about exactly what role is must now play shallot continue to take political initiatives as it must or must it stand back and give that role specifically to the political organizations. And so it's been a difficult time for the church. I I would hope personally that the church would take up the battle. Someone has to keep alive the ideals that we stand for political organizations that go into negotiations must compromise, as of necessity compromise is at the very nature of negotiations. There is a great risk that within all of the compromises that you must make and and concern for whatever fears of others. Some of the ideals will get lost the voice of the voiceless will remain silent somebody Keep the political process honest and legitimate. I hope that there will be some Christians who will do that some Christians who will remain in the church some Christians who will go into the political process itself to help to help with that. I hope that churches would not withdraw or would not simply become the Watchdog of the process in South Africa, but would remain what I would call the radical edge of politics in South Africa. I hope that we would be able to do that and we mustn't be shy about that. The church is not that great. So we don't need to be that humble so we can stand up for certain things that I think our nation was not forget and I would hope that the church would be in the Forefront of that particular battle. Thank you. Dr. Bozek. Our next question is from Adrian Wilson. I'm dr. Bozek. When I came in here. I noticed that security wasn't tight enough ain't seen and I wonder how much concern did you have coming here or having a chance to get assassinated here? I don't know. I used to I used to live by telling myself don't think about these things that has become a luxury that nobody can afford anymore. I know that they're making arrangements back home. And I know that there is concerned about my security and my life back home. Yeah. I trust that nothing will happen until I get have to catch that flight on Sunday. I Mike I guess that there may be a situation where we will not be able to travel anywhere without security. I also know sir that it doesn't really matter how much security you get if somebody wants to get you they will get you Rajiv. Gandhi was a good friend of mine the prime minister of India and nobody was better protected than Rajiv and they got him. So what I say to myself and what I say to my family what I say to my wife is this You can not always think of this you must be aware of it. But you cannot allow yourself to be submerged into this particular field. What will happen you die a thousand times before you die, when you do that and you've got to know that certain things have to be done. And God has given some of us more responsibility than others and you must take that up. And for the rest, I can only say my hands is in the life of God and whatever happens happens. I don't say this lightly, but I say this prayerfully and I hope that others will pray with me and that while you are around you do as much as you can for the good of the people that God has called you to work for Thank you. Dr. Bostic. Our next question is from Dan Gilcrest. Mr. Bozak. I'd like you to comment on the AMC's new draft for a Bill of Rights and specifically the right of a free press I'm quoting from a document and it says that there should be freedom of thought speech free expression and opinion including a free press which show report in comment fairly and respect the rights of reply and I guess I'm a little concerned about that last Clause there and I've spoken to reporters reporters who would be sympathetic to the ANC in most situations who expressed concern over the freedom of the press under the ANC its government. Well, that is a good question. Let me Begin by saying to you that on the law books of South Africa. There were more than 1,100 closes. Just dealing with censorship of the press. So the agency can hardly do worse than that, but we will do better. The commitment to free speech is is is a clear one. Now. I've had my own little misunderstandings for the person. I think I hope sometimes I think if these papers were just get journalist would be a little bit more nevermind honest just intelligent it will help and I've got this love-hate relationship because they have so much in their hands. They interpret what you say to other people and it is so important but what we have learned very very bitter lessons in South Africa. I mean there was a time when what we said was heard by people because the Press picked it up. The in South Africa now in South Africa now, we have great difficulty with that. Let me give you an example last week. I went home as I told you I spoke five times. I spoke about the anger of all people. I spoke about the sense of loss. I spoke about the tragedy. I spoke about our hope. I exhorted our young people not to get violent. I asked them not to go into rage fits of rage and revenge. I asked them specifically to support the leadership as we continue to work for democracy. Even in Cape Town was not a single Paper as far as I can remember that quoted me. Not that I'm that important. But mrs. Mandela the other day flew down to Cape Town made a speech in which he called upon young people to go out there and kill some weight so that they will know how it feels that got front page cover. Now that is irresponsible. And so I would like for the presence of Africa before they worry about what is it going to be like under the ANC? To have an open discussion with us as to what we think is responsible. And what we think is good. And I don't think that you must therefore tell the president's response when you can say this in as it is, all of the news must come out but must come out in a way that is helpful. Also, I think and and and you one is not supposed to criticize the Press but I do think that they are elements of the press in South Africa. There are very very irresponsible. And I would hope that they would learn not to do that really not to do that because the role that they play is so crucial so crucial and we cannot be without them. But they must learn that also they also it's not the scoop that's important. It is not how I sell my newspaper that is only important is also how I serve society and I suppose they think and believe that's why there as well and I would hope that that would be the case, but press Freedom would be very high on the agenda for any government that follows the Nationalist party government in South Africa. Thank you. Thank you very much. Dr. Bozak. We have a question from Minneapolis high school student Kevin Berkeley. Oh, yes, as I see it basically you and the group that you represent are reasonable and the group that you're opposing or rather trying to get out of government or unreasonable and you and your group of people are basically asking for what's what should be will what should have been granted you which is your freedom. And your human rights? And those have been denied you people and those people will been denied you over there. How how how do you think that by you going there and doing things in a political Forum at these distant will bring about change because for instance over here in the United States and early 60s and things like that change was brought about but in such a slow way and I feel I mean I can't I personally can't see someone coming into my own home and treat me like a stepchild. That's what it would seem to me. Okay, Kevin. I the question that you ask is the question that millions of young people in South Africa ask and our concern about we are all concerned about that. The reason why we are going through the slow process of negotiation is to make sure that the gains that we make cannot simply be reversed that the changes that come our fundamental changes. And so what we fought for for instance the South African government in the beginning of the negotiations was against elections. It was against a constituent assembly it was against a constituent assembly writing a new constitution for the country if we have genset forget it. We would have blown the whole thing. We worked on it and we worked on them. Now. They are conceding that we must have elections and those elections will come we will have a constituent assembly that constituent assembly will write that new constitution. The point is that sometimes things go a little slower but it's better to go a little slower and to make sure that what you do is you reversible then to push too hard and you get a lot of things done but most of them are superficial and so we are asking young people as we take every single step make sure that you come along and make sure that that step is the right step that we take and you can be sure South Africa's politicized young people. I mean, I don't know of any place in the world, maybe except South Korea where young people are so politicized as so participating in the struggle then in South Africa and I can tell you they will not allow us to do things that will not ultimately be For the country, they will remind us of our own responsibilities. Thank you. Our next question is from Sally Pillsbury. I'd like to have you comment on something that never happened in our country in the writing of the Constitution our Constitution and with your new constitution. I'd like to have you comment on the Women's National Federation. Yes, the Women's National Federation is an interesting group of women from all political parties are participating in that very much like the multi-party discussions that are going on between the political parties formally and they are working on a number of gender issues which could otherwise easily be forgotten as all those men sit around the tables and thinking about the future of South Africa and the women of South Africa are not about to let that happen of course, but before they came together, I am proud to say these are the African National Congress women themselves at made the agency except as a matter of policy that for the Constitution. There should be a special Charter for the rights of women. But we'll also have a charter for the rights of children because children have always been the first victims in the apartheid system. So we understand that and so what the women are doing now is drafting that Charter for women's rights, which will be placed on the agenda for discussion in the constituent assembly at an official level where it will become somehow part of the new Constitution. And I think that that is probably the most important contribution that can be made in this particular area right now. Thank you very much. Doctor. Bozak. We're listening to Alan bozak a member of the executive committee of the African National Congress speaking on the station's of Minnesota Public Radio. He is speaking to the Minnesota meeting in Downtown Minneapolis. We have a question now from Polly shh McHale who is with the center for victims of torture. Climb rate. I'd like to know how going to deal with the likes of Mama Benghazi when we reconstruct the country. Secondly, what is the future of our country overseas or in during the transitional government? The future of in contributions were is as far as I know fairly clear they had been talks between the government and the native African National Congress for some time now and there will be an integration of the forces and there will be joint control and Joint leadership as much as possible. There will emerge out of this process of transition a new South African Defence Force. We hope which will reflect the reality of the nation and which will be a Defense Force of the nation rather than a private Army for the South African government. Secondly what will happen to gotcha buthelezi and Mungo p and all those people of the homelands. The agreement is now as another victory that we scored that I think is significant that before the elections all of the homelands that have been given their independence will be incorporated reincorporated into South Africa with the acceptance of our plan for Regions. All of the homelands will simply become part of the region where they are located as it used to be they will not be given special recognition what will happen to those leaders, of course between now and the elections they will probably stay there when the regions are there and the regions will have their own elections and they run and they lose they will have to accept that they have lost. I don't have to convince you that none of these Homeland leaders are really very popular amongst their own people. So they might have a little difficulty getting back into office. Once the regions have been demarcated and elections have been Announced for for the Region's thank you. Dr. Bostic we have time for one last question from Jim Cook. Thank you doctor. I'm glad to hear that the killing of the activists last couple weeks ago did not derail the process and also to hear you say that the fields are white people will not sort of Drive the process I've read just last week and I can't remember quite where is that the far-right groups the Africans that don't believe in the process that are planning to do real the products process with the help of the secret police or some police force. I was wondering if in fact that are I know everybody's aware of that and what is being done about it. Ok. Yes. There is the very real possibility that we will have continued violence in South Africa one of the difficulties with the violence in South Africa is that it has been so carefully manipulated politically. It's not just violence. There are reasons why it has been allowed to go on. In certain places, we have definite proof of the involvement of the security forces in what we call the third force in the violence in South Africa. And that is another difficulty the way to deal with this I think is simply this the shooter we get to a an interim government of national Unity. The sooner we will have joint control over the security forces. You cannot expect mr. De klerk I think to control his Security Forces if he's not even sure that they would want to listen to him and if he would not want with an election in mind to alienate even more of the right wing white people who supposed to vote for him. So that is a difficulty. The other thing is I think we must simply accept that there will be more violence, but I can also tell you that we are absolutely determined not to allow the violence of the right-wing to derail the process. There is so much at stake for my country and and and this week has shown it. They have killed Chris Hani in the hope that the agency would say we stop everything but they did not reckon. The fact that our hope rises all over that and our determination cannot be stopped merely by bullets anymore. It's never been the case. It will not ever be the case. So whatever happens by this time next year. We will have a democratic government pray God that it will be so and we will work hard for you to happen. Thank you.