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CATHERINE WINTER: And we're back at the Mille Lacs Chippewa reservation, coming to you from Grand Casino. I'm Catherine Winter here with Rachel Reabe who's out right now among the slot machines. Rachel?

RACHEL REABE: Thank you, Catherine. I'm standing with Ken Mimmack, who is the chief financial officer for Grand Casino Mille Lacs. Ken, give our listeners an idea of how big this facility is.

KEN MIMMACK: Well, if you were to put three football fields side by side, that's about the size of this facility. We've got about 130,000 square feet of total facilities.

RACHEL REABE: Actually, today is the second birthday of Grand Casino Mille Lacs. Two years ago, this was not the facility you opened up in. Tell me what's happened since.

KEN MIMMACK: Since then, we've been through a number of expansions. We started out with about a 10,000-square-foot facility, expanded again another 12,000. And last July, we opened a 52,000 square foot expansion, which is the largest part of the gaming floor as you see it today.

RACHEL REABE: Now, in addition to hearing the slot machines and the blackjack dealers here, it's possible you may also hear some construction noises going on because you're into another construction project at this point.

KEN MIMMACK: That's right. We're going through-- we're adding what's called a Kids Quest, which is a daycare center. We're also adding a video arcade to handle some of our teen activity and also support the family coming to this location. We're also adding about a 250-seat restaurant called the Grand Northern Grill. So that's the expansion you see going right now.

RACHEL REABE: Ken, is today a busy day at Grand Casino Mille Lacs? As we look around us, is this a busy day or about a medium day for you?

KEN MIMMACK: I'd say it's actually sort of low to medium. It's a Monday. Monday is usually a fairly slow day today. If you were here on Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, you'd see virtually all the spaces filled.

RACHEL REABE: How many people might be here today?

KEN MIMMACK: Today, we will probably see about 5,000 people today.

RACHEL REABE: And I guess, among those are 13 busloads of people, which I've heard are here today as well. What's been your biggest number of people that you've ever had here in a day?

KEN MIMMACK: We've seen over 12,000 here. Usually, during the summer months, probably August, September, we'll see about 45,000 to 50,000 people a week through our doors.

RACHEL REABE: What does that translate in terms of money? We know that estimates are that $1 billion is wagered at Indian casinos annually. In terms of this casino, what might that mean?

KEN MIMMACK: Well, very easily. The gaming revenues are a misconception. Revenues here aren't necessarily correlated to the amount of money that actually goes into a slot machine. So less than 10% of what goes into a slot machine is actually returned as revenue to the casino. We see about $25 to $30 per person that comes through the door.

RACHEL REABE: So when you talk about 5,000 people, you take that times $25 or $30 and that gives you an idea of how much money might come in today.

KEN MIMMACK: From our gaming.

RACHEL REABE: And again, the Mille Lacs Casino is the third largest behind Mystic Lake, Hinckley, then Mille Lacs.

KEN MIMMACK: Right.

RACHEL REABE: Thank you. Again, we've been talking to Ken Mimmack who's the chief financial officer here. I'm Rachel Reabe. Now back to Catherine Winter.

CATHERINE WINTER: Thanks, Rachel. Casino gambling has been called the new buffalo, a chance for American Indian communities to build their economies. In Minnesota, where Indian casinos are bringing in more money than they are in any other state, tribal leaders say gambling profits are wiping out poverty and unemployment on some reservations.

Given time, they say, the deep social problems in Native communities also can be solved with the help of casino money. Minnesota Public Radio's John Biewen and Leif Enger prepared this report on how well Indian casinos are paying off. John Biewen narrates the report.

[TRAFFIC RUSHING]

JOHN BIEWEN: Traffic is steady and quick on Mystic Lake Drive, on the Shakopee Mdewakanton Sioux reservation, a half hour south of Minneapolis. Even during a weekday afternoon, these drivers will have trouble finding a parking space at Mystic Lake Casino. As tribe member Tracy Stade will tell you, the traffic started picking up when the tribe got into the casino business in the mid 1980s. Tracy is 25 and a mother of three small children. She grew up on the tiny reservation before this road was paved for the gamblers.

TRACY STADE: You used to be able to play in the middle of the road. Didn't even have to worry about any cars speeding through at 60 or a car coming through any time of the day. So we road bikes down the road, and played with our friends, and built forts right across the street and didn't have a care in the world. Now, you don't even go near the road.

JOHN BIEWEN: The 200-member Mdewakanton Sioux tribe runs one of the most successful Indian gaming businesses in the country. Its Mystic Lake and Little Six casinos draw 10,000 visitors a day, most of them from the nearby Twin Cities. The tribe is Scott County's largest employer. Most of the casino workers are non-Indians from off the reservation. Mystic Lake is being expanded to the size of casinos on the Las Vegas strip, all this on a reservation that was a niche of poverty ignored by outsiders when it opened its first bingo hall 11 years ago.

LEONARD PRESCOTT: In 1982, our community, a lot of the folks lived in single-wide trailer homes. They had about-- we had about 60% that were receiving some kind of assistance. We had no educational programs. We had no sewer and water development and virtually no funds coming in that would allow for that kind of a growth.

JOHN BIEWEN: Tribe member Leonard Prescott is chairman of Little Six Incorporated, which runs the gambling operations. The gaming company is owned by the tribe. Prescott's estimates of gross revenues from the two casinos have ranged from $150 million to $200 million a year.

LEONARD PRESCOTT: We have become an economic strength in the state of Minnesota. We have 2,700 people that are employed via Mystic Lake that can then afford food on the table for their children. They can afford the cars, they can afford gas, they can afford the clothing, and go to the theater and all those kind of things. So there's a rippling effect to this advantage.

JOHN BIEWEN: Tracy Stade misses the quiet of the old days. But having grown up poor, she has no quarrel with her tribe's new wealth or her own. The reservation's rundown trailer homes are being replaced by two-story suburban style houses. Tracy's is almost finished.

TRACY STADE: We'll have a full deck up here off the dining room, and hopefully, in the near future, maybe a small pool. It depends. I guess they're hard to clean.

[LAUGHS]

So I don't know.

JOHN BIEWEN: The tribes 101 adult members get a share of casino profits in the form of monthly checks. Tribe members are reticent about the size of their incomes, but they each receive an estimated $8,000 a month.

TRACY STADE: And a three-car garage. That's going to give us lots of space to grow and move around. And my favorite spot, the two-story foyer. I'll go up and put my chandelier that I've always wanted.

JOHN BIEWEN: The success of the Mdewakanton and a few other tribes has created a new stereotype-- the rich Indian. Stan Crooks is a Mdewakanton tribal chairman.

STAN CROOKS: Like someone said, you could always tell an Indian driving around by the car they had. Usually, older car, quite old, beat up and needs repairs. Now, they point around and say, if you see a new car go by, they say that's probably one of the Indians because they all got new cars.

JOHN BIEWEN: But a slim fraction of Indians get big payments from gambling, only a few hundred in the whole country. For most Native Americans, the gambling benefits are less dramatic or nonexistent. Nonetheless, advocates say gambling is the first tool that has made any real economic difference for Indian people.

Shakopee Sioux leaders say most of their gaming profits, which have been estimated at $20 million to $90 million a year, are devoted to the collective benefit of the tribal community. The tribe plans to start businesses outside of the gambling industry and has already improved government services. It's added this child care center and a new after school program for older kids with computers and a tutor. Prescott says the tribe has also expanded its health clinic, counseling services and chances for schooling.

LEONARD PRESCOTT: We have an educational program that allows any of the kids in our reservation to go to any place in the United States for school or abroad, and we pay for their education. We have health insurance policies in the communities so that the health is taken care of. And so there's no state or federal funds for that.

ROSEANN CAMPAGNOLI: This is an interesting area because one more time the focus of the building is on the children.

JOHN BIEWEN: Roseann Campagnoli directs public relations for the Mdewakanton Sioux tribe. Dakota kids in new blue jeans play basketball and gym hockey in the clean, high-ceilinged rec room.

ROSEANN CAMPAGNOLI: It's a place for them to be after school. It's a place for them to gather. It's a recreational facility. It's set up for games and athletic kinds of things. It's just a great place for the kids to center on and be here.

JOHN BIEWEN: Some Native Americans worry that in the push for prosperity, Indians will leave their culture behind. But native traditions are part of the tribe's education plans.

MONIQUE LUCIUS: Step together.

[LAUGHS]

You're getting it. You'll get it.

JOHN BIEWEN: After school program director Monique Lucius and 14-year-old Debbie Decorum move across the gym among the bouncing basketballs, working on a traditional dance.

MONIQUE LUCIUS: Step together. There you go.

STAN CROOKS: I look at gaming revenue as a great opportunity for us to go back and re identify with our culture.

JOHN BIEWEN: Tribal chairman Stan Crooks.

STAN CROOKS: Buy back land that we once owned, buying back artifacts that we once owned that is sold, and traded and is gone but still here in the state. So now we have the opportunity and the money to buy those things back and build a structure to house them and provide instructors and teachers and bring Dakota people in there to teach the young people about our history.

JOHN BIEWEN: American Indian leaders talk about history when arguing that tribal gaming should be allowed to continue. They say the money made so far from casinos is barely a down payment on the debts owed to Indian people for hundreds of years, they say, an indifferent or hostile white society has kept Indians on their knees.

TRACY STADE: My grandma would always tell me stories when she first went to the boarding school. She'd go there and be whipped because she was talking her native tongue. While she'd come home and she'd be whipped because she is talking English. The thing was catch-22. What was she to do?

JOHN BIEWEN: What Tracy Stade's grandparents did was drink. Tracy guesses almost half of tribe members, including some of her relatives, abuse alcohol or drugs. And the new gambling wealth hasn't changed that.

TRACY STADE: Overall, the alcohol and drug addiction out there, I think it's bad and it's probably getting worse. My own view is that, it gives them more money to drink with.

JOHN BIEWEN: Some say distributing casino profits directly to tribe members is a bad use of the money. That people who've been poor for so long won't spend it wisely. Newspaper reports of Mdewakanton members buying fancy cars and jewelry have embarrassed some on the reservation. The tribe offers its members investment counseling and encourages them to prepare for the day when the money stops flowing.

Little Six chairman Leonard Prescott says it's not fair to criticize tribe members for irresponsible spending. The casino money sprang on tribes almost overnight. Prescott says learning how to hunt the new buffalo will take time.

LEONARD PRESCOTT: You have a lot of dysfunction in Indian families. That dysfunction has to be corrected. So we're looking at a generation. Maybe we're looking at another generation. So it's not that you have a bingo hall or a casino today and all your problems are solved tomorrow.

MOLLY BIG BEAR: I remember having to haul water. There's a pump must be a half mile down the road. Winter, spring, fall, summer, we were hauling water, cutting wood.

Get home from work and do the chores and then go out to play. By that time, it was 8 o'clock in the evening. Like a Loretta Lynn story, "Coal Miner's Daughter," something like that.

JOHN BIEWEN: Molly Big Bear lives today within a quarter mile of where she was raised on a wooded hill a few minutes south east of Isle, near Mille Lacs Lake in Central Minnesota. She has endured poverty, a rough divorce and a bout with clinical depression. But Molly says there are joys now. Her six children, a casino job that took her off welfare and her dancing gray pony, Waabikwe.

MOLLY BIG BEAR: Waabikwe in Ojibwe means he has gray hair. Last summer, I bought him a brand new saddle. Beautiful saddle, it's black with diamond studs on it. So even my baby gets a slice of the pie.

JOHN BIEWEN: Molly Big Bear is one of several hundred Mille Lacs Ojibwe who work at the boxy, pastel-colored Grand Casino on the west shore of Lake Mille Lacs. In contrast to the Mdewakanton Sioux, the Mille Lacs band is using all of its casino profits to improve government services and buy land. Other than a $500 Christmas bonus, there's no distribution of casino revenues. That doesn't bother Molly Big Bear.

MOLLY BIG BEAR: If I got a per capita check, it would be just like going back on welfare. I wouldn't have to work. I'd just stay home and get my check.

We're getting things that we need and things that we wanted, a new phone, a vacuum. Probably to some people it doesn't seem like, oh, wow, a new vacuum, big deal. But this is something--

[LAUGHS]

This is something I've never done before, is buy a brand new vacuum for over $100. It's always a $5 here or $10 there rummage sale special.

JOHN BIEWEN: Since taking a job two years ago as a phone operator at the casino, Molly has moved up quickly to receptionist, then administrative assistant in marketing. She's also 1 of 20 employees in what's called the Grand University, a program of business seminars and college classes to help tribe members move up the management ranks.

MOLLY BIG BEAR: This is something that was just a dream. And now it's a reality, I guess. It just kind of-- it still amazes me.

JOHN BIEWEN: Marge Anderson is the Mille Lacs band's chief executive. Her government issued $15 million in bonds guaranteed by casino profits to pay for building projects similar to those on the Shakopee Sioux reservation-- a new government building, community center and daycare facility. A new clinic will open before the end of the year, two schools in time for fall classes. But so far, for Mille Lacs tribe members, the main benefit of the casinos is the chance for a job, with Indians getting preference. The results are mixed.

REGINALD GARBOW: Got good water now. Got a new facility. Before it used to be just talk. Now they're doing something.

JOHN BIEWEN: On a gravel street half a mile from the reservation's new water tower, tribal public works employees Reginald Garbow and John Iron Necklace use an electric sewer snake to ream out a clogged line. The house they're visiting is tiny. Most of the exterior is covered in clear plastic against the wind, and the yellow paint underneath is peeling away in chips the size of your hand.

Despite the casinos, this is still a typical reservation home. Despite the tribal government's claim of zero unemployment, the jobless are still easy to find. Reginald Garbow.

REGINALD GARBOW: They needed to train our people to work. They weren't used to getting up at 7, 8 o'clock in the morning. Some of the people haven't worked for 40 years. Going into that work cycle, I don't think they knew how to do that.

JOHN BIEWEN: Garbow himself has never worked at the casino, but most local tribe members have. Many didn't last long. Bernice Grice, who owns the house, and John Iron Necklace, who's unplugging her drain, are both former casino employees.

BERNICE GRICE: When that started opening, they were really happy. Indians go in there and work. I got to go to work. When you walk in, all you see is Indians. And all of a sudden, I turn around there's white guys working in a dealing table.

JOHN IRON NECKLACE: I can understand what some of the people have complaints about taking orders from, let's say, white people and they never had before. And them telling them to say, well, you be in such time or forget it.

REGINALD GARBOW: If you want to make it here like in the casino, you have to be an apple.

JOHN BIEWEN: Reginald Garbow.

REGINALD GARBOW: That's what Indian people call the person that doesn't really give a crap about their culture. That's what makes it so hard. If you want to-- if you want to make it in the white man's world, then you have to turn to be an apple.

JOHN BIEWEN: In fact, the casino hasn't changed life for many Mille Lacs Ojibwe. Molly Big Bear's sister, Sheila Anderson, says sometimes just getting a job isn't enough.

SHEILA ANDERSON: Well, a lot of our people are alcoholics, so am I. They get their first paycheck, and they go out and blow it and don't come back to work.

JOHN BIEWEN: Sheila worked at the casino for one month, and her story is common. Of the several hundred Mille Lacs members hired when Grand Casino opened, only 45 have stayed and been promoted. Still, casino profits have created other jobs. The tribal government has doubled its payroll to nearly 300, and construction projects will mean hundreds of jobs this summer.

The stream of gamblers is also changing the way non-Indians do business around Mille Lacs. The newest addition to the newest vacation spot on the lake is this whirlpool bath, big enough for 15 prosperous tourists under construction at the lake Mille Lacs resort.

DAVE BENTLEY: When the casino is busy, everybody's busy. And as long as the casino stays busy so will everybody else.

JOHN BIEWEN: Dave Bentley manages the resort. It used to be called Eddie's, a ramshackle place favored by walleye fishermen. The new hotel has an indoor pool, cathedral ceiling and glass facade.

DAVE BENTLEY: 10 years ago, you'd come up here-- and I'm not saying that any of the properties were bad by any means, but they were the same as they were 10 years before that and 10 years before that.

JOHN BIEWEN: Other businesses oppose the change. Outlying bars and restaurants say cheap meals at the casinos are taking their customers. When the Blue Goose Tavern burned down recently, one of the first rumors was that the owner, unable to compete with the Indians, had torched it for the insurance.

But the man charged with arson turned out to be an angry former patron of the tavern. Ojibwe Ruth Sam, an employment manager at the Mille Lacs Casino, says the resentment toward Indian casinos comes from jealousy. She tells of an encounter with a white man at the Blue Goose.

RUTH SAM: He was very drunk. And he walked by and I was paying for our drinks at the time. And I pulled out a $50 bill and he had seen it.

And he says that Indians get it for free. I just started pushing him and I told him, I said, one of these days I said, you're going to be working for the Indians here. And sure enough, he's working here.

[HAMMERING]

JOHN BIEWEN: On the Red Lake Reservation in remote Northwestern Minnesota, the effects of Indian gambling are hard to find. Here, new construction means an office framed up from 2 by 4s at the back of the existing bingo hall. That's where the Red Lake band has the smallest of its three casinos-- 50 slot machines, 3 blackjack tables, no neon. In a back room crammed with video monitors, Red Lake gaming manager Adrian Omen watches a money counting machine sort packets of dollar bills.

[MONEY COUNTER WHIRRING]

ADRIAN OMEN: If we would have started large up here, if we would have put in a multi, multi-million dollar complex, we would be broke. We'd be the laughing stock of Minnesota.

JOHN BIEWEN: In contrast to the Shakopee Sioux tribe with its big casinos and only 200 tribe members to share the profits, the Red Lake Ojibwe have a sprawling reservation with 8,000 members and a relative trickle of gambling money. Without a big city to feed in customers, the Red Lake band has small scale casinos. It spent less than $1 million to open its first one two years ago in Warroad. Since then, it's opened small casinos in Thief River Falls and Red Lake.

Gaming employs 330 people on the reservation, 230 of them Native American. Everyone in management is Red Lake Ojibwe.

SPEAKER: Oh, this is cracked.

QUENTIN FAIRBANKS: Have you got one in here yet or--

SPEAKER: No.

QUENTIN FAIRBANKS: I can take it back. And just take the top back and we'll take the sink and replace it with another.

JOHN BIEWEN: Gamblers won't buy this reservation new schools or buildings anytime soon. Living conditions are still substandard for many. The only social program paid for by casino revenues is what's called the elderly maintenance program. Amelia Whitefeather, who lives alone, needs work done on her bathroom.

AMELIA WHITEFEATHER: The door is just narrow. If I had to have a wheelchair, then I won't be able to get through there.

QUENTIN FAIRBANKS: We'll tear out the whole thing into the wall. We'll re insulate it and put plasterboard up there and we'll put a shower--

JOHN BIEWEN: Quentin Fairbanks heads up the elderly maintenance program, five full-time handymen who have done small and large repairs for more than 250 old people on the reservation. The repairs are free courtesy of Tribal Gaming, and they are needed.

QUENTIN FAIRBANKS: Some of my people that work for me would go into a bathroom, they'd almost practically fall through the floor. In fact, one of them did right into the basement.

JOHN BIEWEN: Amelia Whitefeather accepts the workman's presence with a chuckle and few words. She appreciates the new bathroom, but thinks gambling is a bad idea.

AMELIA WHITEFEATHER: I hate to lose and. And I live on a fixed income so I have to go by that.

[CHUCKLES]

JOHN BIEWEN: The Red Lake Reservation is divided on Gaming. Some worry about compulsive gambling. Others say the tribe should build bigger casinos with brighter lights and more jobs. But Gaming manager Adrian Omen says the tribe's modest approach means less divisiveness, too.

ADRIAN OMEN: Our main objective was to put people to work and aid our elderly. You're running a business. You're selling a product. Your quarters, your tokens, they recycle.

You comply with regulations. That's it. And nothing magic about it.

[DOG BARKING]

JOHN BIEWEN: Native American leaders say they're in a race against time trying to make lasting change in their communities before the new buffalo is taken away. Tribes that can afford to invest in non-gambling-related business do so. The Shakopee Mdewakanton Sioux bought a small company that makes construction equipment.

Tracy Stade says it's harder to restore pride. She's determined to help. Despite the estimated $8,000 a month she gets from gambling, Tracy works for the Mdewakanton Dakota government, helping shape the tribe's education programs.

TRACY STADE: I don't have to work. I can stay home, but I choose to work. And just trying to get the word out to these parents, to these kids that you need to be educated. Because when the money is gone, where are you going to be? Back to right where we were 10 years ago.

JOHN BIEWEN: I'm John Biewen.

CATHERINE WINTER: That report was produced by John Biewen and Leif Enger with technical direction by John Scherf. You're listening to a special Main Street Radio broadcast live from the Mille Lacs Chippewa reservation. Support for today's Main Street Radio broadcast is provided by the Blandin Foundation, helping to build communities throughout Minnesota.

Our guests today are Leonard Prescott, the chairman of Little Six Incorporated, which runs the Mystic Lake Casino in Prior Lake. Leonard Prescott is also a former chair of the Shakopee Mdewakanton Dakota tribe and former chair of the National Indian Gaming Association. He joins us by satellite from Washington, where he's been attending a meeting.

Also with us is State Senator Charlie Berg, who chairs the Senate Gaming Regulation Committee. Senator Berg joins us by satellite from our Saint Paul studios. And here with us at Grand Casino are Doug Twait who is commissioner of corporate affairs for the Mille Lacs Band of Chippewa and tribal government official Bernita Churchill. Thanks to all of you for being here.

I wanted to start by asking, how much do those of you who work within the casinos or within tribal government think those casinos ought to be expected to change reservation life? Would anyone like to start? Bernita?

The question is, how much do you think casinos should be expected to change reservation life? How quickly can those changes come about? And are people expecting that they might-- are people expecting too much from casinos too quickly?

BERNITA CHURCHILL: Well, looking at the tribal government point of view, Mille Lacs has been open for two years now.

[CLEARS THROAT]

Excuse me. And we've been able to do a lot of infrastructural work here on the reservation. We've been able to do a water tower. We're looking at rebuilding our communities right now.

We're building an upper and a lower school. We're building a health care facility, daycare. We built ceremonial buildings.

It's been a long process in developing a community. And it took a lot of input from the communities to determine how to rebuild our communities. And I think it's going to be a long process before we'll be able to have a comfortable standard way of life right now.

In addition to that, we're also looking at developing housing projects throughout all three districts of the Mille Lacs Band.

CATHERINE WINTER: So a person walking through the reservation two years ago and a person walking through now would already see some changes then?

BERNITA CHURCHILL: Yes, they would. They'd be able to look at our water tower. We are now in the process of building an upper and a lower school. And within a month's time, we'll be building our new health care facility here at District 1.

CATHERINE WINTER: It looks like we've already got a caller on the line. Go ahead. What's your question, please?

SPEAKER (ON PHONE): The question I have concerning the constitutional amendment that just happened in Wisconsin to limit gaming, and in particular Indian gaming. Any of the lists or any of the persons there that you have can respond to whether or not that would occur in Minnesota and what effect would that have on the Indian gaming.

CATHERINE WINTER: Doug Twait?

DOUG TWAIT: That's a very good question. First of all, it's not entirely clear what impact that constitutional amendment will have on Indian gaming in Wisconsin. That really needs to be sorted out.

Here in Minnesota, a couple of things. First of all, the compacts that we've entered into with the state of Minnesota are perpetual in nature and are not limited to a term of years. I think that's a significant difference.

And in addition to that, we're working very, very hard to demonstrate that Indian gaming is an overall benefit to the state of Minnesota. I think we've done a good job of making that point up until now. As Leonard pointed out earlier, we've created between 12,000 and 15,000 jobs in the state of Minnesota in areas where traditionally it's been very, very difficult to create jobs.

Put simply, it's the best economic development tool that rural Minnesota has ever had. And I think that we're doing a good job of telling that story. And people will come to recognize that it is a net gain for the state of Minnesota.

CATHERINE WINTER: But is there some concern, Doug Twait, that at some point in the future either the law will change and restrict gambling to the point that the casinos won't survive or that the law would expand gambling so much that the casinos could no longer compete? Are you trying to make provisions for a future with no gambling in it?

DOUG TWAIT: There's clearly some concern that might happen. And yes, the answer to your second part of your question is alternative economic development is a very, very high priority for the Mille Lacs Band. We need to create a diverse and stable economy. Although we're worried that it could happen, either of those things, either gambling would be limited by law or expanded by law, we think that people will come to see that this is really a pretty good thing. And we ought to keep things just the way that they are because that's what works out best for everybody.

CATHERINE WINTER: What sort of a window of opportunity, Doug, do you think that the casinos have? I've heard the amount 10 years batted around. Does that seem about right?

DOUG TWAIT: Well, that's just speculation and it may be 10 years. I think there's a very good opportunity that Minnesota will come to see that casinos are a very good thing and that we ought to keep the status quo. And I think we can do that into perpetuity. But we are making provisions. We are aware that we're constantly under attack, both at the Capitol in Saint Paul and in Washington DC.

Frankly, sometimes people just don't like to see Indians be successful. And a lot of that criticism is coming after us. So we need to be prepared and we need to develop alternative businesses to create that stable and diverse economy. But again, I think that people will come to realize that Indian gaming is a net gain for the state of Minnesota, and it's something that we really should keep.

CATHERINE WINTER: Senator Berg, are you with us still?

CHARLIE BERG: Yes, I am.

CATHERINE WINTER: What do you think is the likelihood that at some point in the near future the Minnesota government will do something that enables a restriction on Indian gaming?

CHARLIE BERG: Well, I have a bill laying in my committee right now that will be heard next year. That after the year-- it's a constitutional Amendment that would outlaw all gaming in the state of Minnesota by 1999. Now, there is some significant legal questions about that because our compacts are somewhat different in Minnesota than they are in Wisconsin, which had a termination date. But there's also a question that if we outlaw all gaming in Minnesota, that that may affect the casinos as well.

Now, I think the casinos have been somewhat their worst enemy, as far as public relations are concerned. And I think it is not necessarily the Indian people that are at fault, but the management teams. And it deals really with greed.

And this is this practice of going around the country picking up busloads of people out of the communities, bringing them to the casinos with the idea that they come and have cut-rate meals there. And they have to stay at the casinos for a certain number of hours. And of course, while you're sitting at a casino after you've eaten, you're not just going to sit there. You're going to play some of the games. But these ideas--

CATHERINE WINTER: Senator, if the government wanted to--

CHARLIE BERG: --it's these ideas that just make the hospitality industry furious and it's having an effect on the legislators.

CATHERINE WINTER: If the government wanted to pull the plug, would outlawing gambling entirely be enough to do that or would there have to be other maneuverings?

CHARLIE BERG: Well, that's the question. And the idea being that if we outlawed all gaming in the state of Minnesota, that Indian gaming would be outlawed as well.

CATHERINE WINTER: I see.

CHARLIE BERG: Now, there is a legal question on that, but I think there's votes enough in both the House and the Senate to do just exactly that.

DOUG TWAIT: And senator, you think it would be--

CATHERINE WINTER: Doug Twait.

DOUG TWAIT: --a good idea to eliminate 15,000 jobs in out-state Minnesota?

CHARLIE BERG: Doug, I have not opposed you having a monopoly on gaming in the state of Minnesota in the past and I probably wouldn't in the future. But some of the practices that go along with that, I've been really opposed to. And I've told you and other people involved in the casino gaming that you have to be really careful you don't raise enough ire amongst the rest of the hospitality industry that they try to close you down. And I really am afraid that that's what's happening.

CATHERINE WINTER: Let's go back to the phones and take another question. Hello, you're on the air.

SPEAKER (ON PHONE): Hello. I'm calling from Red Wing, Minnesota and rather surprised that the operation at Prairie Island community has not been included in the survey. Because the impression here is that they are doing an excellent job.

They have done a super job with a community center, and they're managing their own casino. And I believe they are distributing to their members. I wonder if anyone has any further information on the Prairie Island community.

CHARLIE BERG: Well, I have attended-- I've been down--

CATHERINE WINTER: Senator Berg.

CHARLIE BERG: --in Prairie Island facility. And from all I know, it is a well-run facility. I have stopped at Mystic Lake at least on two occasions. I believe three. And I have been to the facility at Hinckley and also to the one on the west side of Mille Lacs Lake.

So I've visited most of the Indian casinos. As far as I know, the internal operations are good. And the casino that I know the best is Mystic Lake. And the operation of that casino I know the best. And it's rather highly regarded amongst the entire legislature or anyone at least that's been down there.

CATHERINE WINTER: Let's go back to the telephones and take another question. Hello. What's your question, please?

SPEAKER (ON PHONE): I'm calling from Fargo, North Dakota. And my question is, how realistic is the concern about infiltration by organized crime? And is there any evidence that this has occurred?

CATHERINE WINTER: Doug Twait, would you like to--

CHARLIE BERG: Go ahead. Somebody else can take that.

DOUG TWAIT: The latter part of the answer is, is that there's been one instance in the whole United States of America where there has been some attempt by organized crime to infiltrate an Indian casino. And that was taken care of right away because the Indian tribe itself acted swiftly to make sure that it didn't happen. We here in Minnesota are very, very concerned about that. We're just simply not going to let that happen. Because in order for us to continue to benefit from Indian gaming, we have to keep our operations as squeaky clean as squeaky clean gets.

And we're dedicated to doing that. We're working very, very hard with the Minnesota Attorney general's office, the US Attorney's office. We'll be working with the National Indian Gaming Commission in addition to tribal regulation, to make sure those types of things don't happen to our industry.

CATHERINE WINTER: Leonard Prescott, did you want to add anything to that? It sounds as though we're having a little bit of trouble reaching Leonard. Senator Berg, were you about to jump in there?

CHARLIE BERG: Yes. I think up until this time, these operations are clean from any mob activity. And I will say that if there ever was any evidence of it, that would kill casino gaming immediately.

CATHERINE WINTER: I think we have another caller on the line with a question. Go ahead, please.

SPEAKER (ON PHONE): Yes I'm wondering what percentage of payout do the casinos give on their slot machine action? Like for every dollar put in, what is paid out?

CATHERINE WINTER: Doug Twait?

DOUG TWAIT: Our compacts with the state of Minnesota require the payout to be somewhere between 80% and 97%. My understanding of the gaming industry is that most casinos tend to pay out toward the upper end of that spectrum in the 93% to 97% range.

CATHERINE WINTER: So you're managing to make those startling profits despite the fact that that percentage of money goes back to the gamblers and payout them.

DOUG TWAIT: The idea is that we want people to come here and have a real good time. We don't want people to come in here, get off a bus, and lose all their money in 10 minutes and not have a good time. So what we tend to want to do is we want people to stay around and get their entertainment dollar's worth. And when we look at the numbers that suggest that the average customer losses between $25 and $30, we feel that that's a very comparably priced entertainment alternative.

CATHERINE WINTER: Is that about where you'd like to keep it or would you like to see people spend a little more money at the casinos?

DOUG TWAIT: We're very comfortable with where it's at.

CATHERINE WINTER: Because that way that helps to ensure that people are only gambling what they can afford and helps the reputation then of the casinos?

DOUG TWAIT: Yes.

CATHERINE WINTER: Do we have another caller on the line? Go ahead, please.

SPEAKER (ON PHONE): Yes, I was wondering if they are setting aside any money to take care of the people. Like for instance, the alcoholic problem that they have, do they have a place where they can go and get help for that or for whatever family problems they have and so on, that type of thing? Do they put money away for-- I feel like that's real important to take care of the people themselves.

CATHERINE WINTER: Mille Lacs Tribal Official Bernita Churchill, would you like to respond to that?

BERNITA CHURCHILL: Yes. Thank you. The Mille Lacs Band has developed a net revenue allocation schedule in which a percentage of that money goes back into the community, which enhances our community programs. And $0.25 of each drink that's sold at the Grand Casino Hinckley is donated to our chemical dependency division here at the Mille Lacs reservation. And that has enabled the program to better serve our community members.

CATHERINE WINTER: Are you seeing, do you think, any differences in reservation life because of those programs?

BERNITA CHURCHILL: Well, I think it's been able to enhance and we've been able to provide better services to our band members that are living here on the reservation. Yes, it has.

CHARLIE BERG: Well, I'd like to ask a question.

CATHERINE WINTER: Charlie Berg.

CHARLIE BERG: And that is-- now I notice the meals up at Mille Lacs, you charge a 5% tax on those and I presume that goes to the band. What is that used for? Is that used for education or what is the purpose of that 5% tax?

DOUG TWAIT: That's for general government purposes, Senator Berg, which would include education, social services, all kinds of other things that the government of Mille Lacs is responsible for providing to its people. We are in the process, Senator, as you're well aware, of renegotiating those tax agreements with the State Department of Revenue to come up with a tax-sharing agreement that equitably serves the needs of the state and the needs of the Mille Lacs Band.

CATHERINE WINTER: The point being that then the Mille Lacs Band would actually be providing some tax money to the state, even though it's-- is it not required to?

DOUG TWAIT: Well, it's not required to now, but Indian tribes in the state of Minnesota have voluntarily entered into tax-sharing agreements. And we're now in the process of renegotiating those agreements. And I don't think that we're going to have any trouble coming up with a formula that meets the needs of the state and the Indian tribes in Minnesota.

CATHERINE WINTER: What has to happen as far as renegotiating those agreements? When does that come up again?

DOUG TWAIT: It'll probably come up sometime toward the end of May, going into the summer.

CATHERINE WINTER: This year then? So do they run out this year?

DOUG TWAIT: They expire in July. And the State Department of Minnesota, revenue has given notice to tribes that they do not intend to renew the existing agreements, hoping that we would be able to negotiate different agreements with the state.

CHARLIE BERG: But doesn't that pertain mostly to cigarette taxes?

DOUG TWAIT: It pertains to all taxes, Senator. Sales taxes, cigarette-liquor tax, motor excise tax, all kinds of taxes.

CHARLIE BERG: I see.

CATHERINE WINTER: Let's take another question from a caller. Where are you calling from?

SPEAKER (ON PHONE): I'm calling from South Central Minnesota. And I want to thank you for a program like this, the interviews with the native peoples and giving them an opportunity to express their concerns on both sides. But also the interviews about where they live and how they live and is really what I like to hear about as a kid.

And I'm almost 50 now. I was raised in an era where getting to know native people was clouded with fear and much misinformation. So I'm really eager to learn more about real people. My question is, I was wondering if there is a way to support the native concern and view either financially or with a letter of support on this issue up at Mille Lacs Lake, this gaming issue? And is there a way to give some support to their concern?

CATHERINE WINTER: Well, my guess would be that Doug Twait would be only too happy to tell you how you can do that.

DOUG TWAIT: Well, I would suggest that you call Senator Charlie Berg down at the State Capitol and let him know how much you support Indian gaming.

CATHERINE WINTER: Well, what about--

CHARLIE BERG: Doug, you've known me long enough. You know I have no objection to your Indian gaming. And I think that your caller is referring to some other subject.

DOUG TWAIT: I think, Senator, we're more than happy to sit down both with your committee and the hospitality industry in the state of Minnesota to really make Indian gaming work for everybody. And we're committed to that as you are.

CHARLIE BERG: Doug, have you--

CATHERINE WINTER: What about the issue that-- Senator, what about the issue that the caller brings up of whether-- have the casinos actually worked to the advantage to some extent of Indian tribes in that they have brought Indian people into more prominence and that more of us are getting to know each other? Has that been an important change. Bernita?

BERNITA CHURCHILL: Well, I think that we have to remember that here at Mille Lacs, we have at least 3,000 band members that are currently enrolled here at Mille Lacs. And we can talk about how much revenues that we've created and generated over the years, but I think that we have to keep-- we have to keep in mind and we have to remember that it's going to take us many, many years to be able to bring up our standard way of living to a much greater level. And there are so many needs out there-- education, housing, natural resources, elderly housing. There's a lot of issues that we have to address here at the tribal government level that will be able to enhance the way of life that our band members are seeking to obtain.

CATHERINE WINTER: Let's go back to the telephones for another question. Hello. Where are you calling from?

SPEAKER (ON PHONE): Yes, I'm an employee of Mystic Lake Casino. And I'd like to talk a little bit about the hospitality industry, some of their problems about people being picked up at the restaurants and bars in rural areas.

CATHERINE WINTER: If you could keep your comments brief, that'll help us to get as many people on as possible.

SPEAKER (ON PHONE): First of all, the restaurants and bars in rural areas, they are declining in sales because DWIs-- drinking isn't socially accepted like you used to-- health, baby boomers are getting older. And the trend is in the liquor industry and beer industry-- I work for a brewery for 10 years-- is that there has been a steady decline for 10 years. And if you look at the rural areas, people are moving out of those areas. They're depressed. That's one reason why bar owners are having these buses pick up people at their places because they got to bring people into the door.

CATHERINE WINTER: Let's ask let's ask Charlie Berg to respond to that argument that, in fact, the hospitality industry that's losing is losing not because of Indian casinos but because of other factors.

CHARLIE BERG: Well, there certainly is a number of other factors. But when the people are picked up by the bus, 40 to 50 people, and the only reason they come in the bar is to go to the bathroom, you can see why it makes the bar owners disgusted. When the bus picks up people at Chokio, for instance, or Morris, they're on the bus for about an hour and a half to go to Jackpot Junction.

They get out of their cars, they get on the bus and they leave the area. They have to stay at the casinos for five to seven hours, then they come back. They're tired.

The only thing they come into the bar for is to go to the washroom and then they go home. And you can see why it would make bar owners or supper club owners angry because that's their only source of income is for those people to come in and spend some money into their establishment. And when they spend it all someplace else, not only the money that they had their pocket at that time, but probably went to the cash card machine or wrote some checks down there besides them getting money for the rest of the week, you can see why people get disgusted.

CATHERINE WINTER: Let's ask Doug to quickly to respond to that and then let's move on to some more calls as we only have about 10 minutes left.

DOUG TWAIT: I'm a little confused, Senator. Are these people herded onto buses against their will and involuntarily whisked down to these casinos?

CHARLIE BERG: No, they're enticed on by a few free bucks to spend at the blackjack tables or at the slot machines, offered a free meal to go or a cut-rate meal and offered a free transportation or a $10 for transportation costs. And the people that are arranging the tours are getting paid so much ahead for bringing them down to the casinos. And it just--

DOUG TWAIT: Sounds like to me what we're doing is competing for the entertainment dollar.

CHARLIE BERG: Yeah, it is by offering either cut rate or freebies to entice these people out of the area.

CATHERINE WINTER: We've got a lot of people on the line. Let's take another call. What's your question, please?

SPEAKER (ON PHONE): I just have-- I have a comment for Senator Berg and that is that I've been doing some reading in the paper and following on the television and some of the hearings. And first off, he makes a lot of comments that are based on generalities instead of fact. One of the comments you had on the program from another participant had to do with a percent of increase in business in private establishments. I believe he said something like 10% in the area where there were casinos and 7% elsewhere. But then he goes ahead and he sponsors bill 104 based on these generalities to expand gambling throughout the state.

CHARLIE BERG: That's not true.

CATHERINE WINTER: Senator Berg, go ahead.

CHARLIE BERG: That's not true. Senator file 104 was a bill to allow mechanical pull tab machines into establishments where they're already legal to cut down the insider trading. And it's an enforcement tool that was desired by the gambling regulation board.

SPEAKER (ON PHONE): Well, that bill had another component to it that--

CHARLIE BERG: But that was not mine and I didn't even vote for the bill.

SPEAKER (ON PHONE): And that was vetoed in committee. But on the other--

CHARLIE BERG: No, it was not vetoed in the committee. It passed the gambling committee with me voting no and went to the governmental operations committee, where instead of taking out just a paragraph of the bill that dealt with the governmental operations committee, they killed the whole bill.

CATHERINE WINTER: Does it look as though that bill is dead for the year then, Senator?

CHARLIE BERG: Well, that bill is dead.

SPEAKER (ON PHONE): Yes. I want to finish my comment. The other thing is, and I listen to you here on the radio and you say then on the other hand, now in 1999, you're going to outlaw gaming, put it up as a referendum to outlaw it throughout--

CHARLIE BERG: I didn't say that. All I said, there's a bill laying in my committee sponsored by another senator, that that's what it would do. We are not going to hear the bill until next year.

SPEAKER (ON PHONE): Well, I'm real confused about what your position is. And I think as I listened to that Government Operations and Reform Committee today, they talked about the cost that would be-- that would go to each of the establishment owners of these private businesses if you put in-- if this two-year trial period had gone through where the video machines were installed and then they'd have to be taken out. And I think they quoted $6,000 for a setup at an establishment per machine or something like that and that included the video camera.

CATHERINE WINTER: Let's let Senator Berg respond to this and then let's try to move on--

CHARLIE BERG: Well, I don't know what she's talking about.

CATHERINE WINTER: --as we quite a few callers waiting.

CHARLIE BERG: That is not my bill. That is an amendment put on a bill that I was carrying for the mechanical pull tab dispensers by Senator Bertram and Senator Dean Johnson from Willmar. And I voted against the bill. However, the bill passed the committee 7 to 3, and I had to carry it to the Governmental Operations Committee, which was the next stop.

CATHERINE WINTER: We've got just a few minutes left, so let's try and get as many calls on as we can. Hello. Where are you calling from?

SPEAKER (ON PHONE): South Central Minnesota.

CATHERINE WINTER: And what's your question, please?

SPEAKER (ON PHONE): I wanted to direct it to the senator. In reference to what I think is the white man's gambling institution, the state lottery, where is all the money's gone that are generated from that? My understanding was that they were to be put into ecological and environmental things to benefit the state and I don't think that's happening.

CHARLIE BERG: Well, 40% of the net proceeds are going into the environmental trust committee. And out of that, part of it stays in the environmental trust as a corpus. About 15% is used each year and will be used for five years for current environmental problems. And that money is all used for environmental projects, one kind or another that are allocated through the Minnesota-- I forget the name of the committee right now--

SPEAKER (ON PHONE): But in the beginning, when the lottery was first introduced, it was-- I remember seeing how the money was to be pied up and a much bigger percentage of that pie was to go to these concerns. And, and it seems every year that that number or that piece of pie is getting smaller.

CHARLIE BERG: Well, the reason being that it's getting smaller-- it's the LCMR that designates the projects. But the reason it's getting smaller is because the amount of prizes given out by the lottery are taking a bigger percentage of the total take. Because in order to compete with all the gambling, they've had to increase their prize money in order to get any sales.

CATHERINE WINTER: We've got just two minutes left. Let's see if we still have time to take another call. Go ahead, please.

SPEAKER (ON PHONE): Yeah. I have a real quick question. We have a cabin north of Mille Lacs Lake. The Indian casino has just been great for the people in the area, white and Indians alike.

The only objection I have is in the area of public relations. Is it possible to turn off the spot lights in the sky? We will go up there to see the moon and the stars and all we see are the spotlights.

CATHERINE WINTER: I thought we might get a question to that effect. Who wants to take that one? Doug Twait?

DOUG TWAIT: Our commissioner of natural resources, Don Wedll held public hearings on the issue and received testimony from a number of people, some in support of the lights, many opposed to it. Based on that testimony, we're going to come up with what we think is a very, very good compromise.

CATHERINE WINTER: What would that compromise be? Having them on some nights and not others?

DOUG TWAIT: It'll be something along those lines, yes.

CATHERINE WINTER: It looks like we might have time for one more question. Let's try it. Go ahead, please. Is there a caller on the line with a question?

SPEAKER (ON PHONE): I'm on there. Am I on the air now?

CATHERINE WINTER: You certainly are. What's your question, please?

SPEAKER (ON PHONE): After listening to this and seeing the wonderful program on public television about the Dakota conflict, I can't help but saying I'm a white Anglo-Saxon Protestant, and I think our Minnesota politicians are nothing but sour grapes. And like the President of the United States said, you people just don't get it. Goodbye and thank you.

LEONARD PRESCOTT: Catherine? Catherine?

CATHERINE WINTER: Yes, Leonard Prescott? Leonard, we have about 30 seconds. Have you got a 30-second comment?

LEONARD PRESCOTT: I just wanted to point out, 10 years ago when we had a dirt road going into the community, we asked the local community to pave it. They said that it wasn't in their strategic plans until 2025. Five years later, we asked to pay half of it and they still said it was not in their strategic plan till 2025.

Well, when we decided we would pay the whole thing, they accepted that deal and we paved it. So how many years ahead of our time are we? Are we 40 years ahead of our time on that with the sewer and water projects that are out there, with the housing development and the social services? Whether you're a large reservation, whether you're a small reservation, how many years ahead of our time are we because of this income? And the things that are happening, I think, are very good on reservations and need to continue.

CATHERINE WINTER: I wish we had another hour--

CHARLIE BERG: Well, I said, Leonard--

CATHERINE WINTER: --to continue taking calls. I'm afraid we have to end here. I want to thank all of our guests for being here and thank everyone who called in, too. That brings us to the end of our special Main Street Radio broadcast from the Mille Lacs Chippewa reservation.

I'd like to thank each of our guests. Leonard Prescott, chairman of Little Sticks, Incorporated and former chairman of the Shakopee Mdewakanton Sioux, State Senator Charlie Berg, who is chairman of the Senate Gaming Regulation Committee, Doug Twait, the corporate commissioner for the Mille Lacs Band of Chippewa, and Mille Lacs tribal official Bernita Churchill. Thanks to our technical director Scott Yankus and Rob [? Hebzynski ?] here at Mille Lacs and to Randy Johnson in Saint Paul. Thanks also for technical assistance from Monitor Radio's broadcast studios in Washington, DC.

Our assistant producers today were Sasha Aslanian and Mike McCall-Pengra. The program was produced by Sara Meyer, John Biewen and Leif Enger and was edited by Kate Moos. Special thanks also to the Mille Lacs Band of Chippewa. Support for today's Main Street Radio broadcast is provided by the Blandin Foundation, helping to build communities throughout Minnesota. With Rachel Reabe, I'm Catherine Winter.