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KATHY: I'll begin by asking for your impressions on the amount and quality of news coverage in Minnesota and issues of concern to the gay and lesbian community. Who wants to start first?

JENNIFER ROBLES: Well, I think--

TIMOTHY ROSE: From our perspective at the Gay and Lesbian Community Action Council, one of the reasons that we developed a media advocacy project and communications program that we have now is that we felt that there needed to be more accurate and equitable coverage of Minnesota's gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgender community. We do think that in the past two years, it's gotten much better. But there have been some glaring lapses, shall we say, in good professional journalistic judgment. But those are far and few between, I think, for the most part.

KATHY: Where are those lapses, by the way? I have to follow up on that.

TIMOTHY ROSE: I think, probably a year and a half ago during some of the murders that were happening to the Minneapolis gay male community. Well, it affected all of our communities, certainly, but they were gay men who were being murdered. I think some of the coverage was, to say the very least, sensational and really didn't address the issue of the violence that's directed at gay men and lesbians in this state and particularly how horrendous that violence can be, I mean, how often it really escalates to the point of murder.

KATHY: Jennifer Robles.

JENNIFER ROBLES: I think that's very true observation that Tim's offered. When I moved here a year and a half ago to work for the Star Tribune as an editorial writer, the first day I worked there was the day that Joel Larsson was shot in Loring Park, which was a very emotional event in the gay community. And as far as I know, I was probably the first very openly gay journalist at the Star Tribune. And I came with a history of being openly gay.

And so it immediately brought me to the forefront of trying to talk with editors and reporters a little bit more about how they write their stories. And I think it was a big learning process because there are certain reporters who really understood after the fact, unfortunately, that there were certain things in their stories that they had done that were sensationalized and also perhaps weren't even accurate. So in many ways, since I've been here in the last year and a half, since I came out, basically, in the paper, other journalists there have been able to come out.

And so we've basically started a dialogue that we haven't had there before. So I think that's positive. But it's been because of certain things that have happened that had to be really questioned.

TIMOTHY ROSE: I really can't emphasize enough how privileged I feel to be associated with people like Jennifer Robles and how important I think it is for journalists to come out. It lends a great deal of integrity to the kind of advocacy that organizations, such as the Gay and Lesbian Community Action Council do on a statewide level. I don't feel-- since having worked with people like Jennifer and some other folks in mainstream media around the state, I don't really feel like I'm beating my head up against a brick wall all the time.

It's very important that in mainstream news organizations, there are people from within in these organizations, and not only just gay and lesbian people, but also educated and well-informed people, who are heterosexual or no matter what your orientation or identity is, to be able to say, this issue is important, we need to cover it in such and such a way.

GEORGE HOLDGRAFER: I've noticed a tremendous improvement in the mainstream media in the seven or eight years that I've been involved in gay and lesbian journalism. I think we're luckier than many Cities with the Star Tribune, the Pioneer Press, and the type of reporting. I would agree with Timothy and Jennifer that we have had problems in the past. But I think especially over the last couple of years, those problems have bettered. I've noticed, especially since Jennifer and Glenn Howatt have been working at the Star Tribune, that there's been a much better reporting of gay and lesbian issues.

KATHY: But Jennifer, I would think it's very difficult to come out to your colleagues. And do you risk rejection by some of your colleagues?

JENNIFER ROBLES: Definitely. I think that the whole situation that I walked into with the gay murders, I mean, that was my first week on the job. And so it was pretty tough in some ways. And I think that we run into the whole question of if you're a gay journalist, does that somehow compromise your journalism abilities? Because you can be perceived as being an advocate for those issues.

And I think that that's something that we're still doing education around and not just at the Star Tribune, but other mainstream media organizations in the Twin Cities. Because I think it can put-- a lot of times, editors who are straight want to put you in a box. They want to know your perspective on things. They want you to bring good stories to them.

But they don't want you to appear to be some sort of an advocate for those issues. For example, the gay rights bill, I mean, that is something that's pretty much in the news right now. But sometimes, editors get really queasy, if you try to pitch a story about, well, here's a situation where somebody has undergone some employment discrimination, can we write a story about that?

And which normally, you would be able to do under no problem. But then sometimes, you'll get an editor, who is just really nervous that you're somehow crossed this line, some sort of invisible line that's supposed to exist in our work, that you can't somehow bring stories up that you might also be perceived as being an advocate for. And I always try to liken this whole situation to the fact that, well, I'm also a Mexican-American woman, and I've often brought up issues involving Latinos to my editors.

And I don't have any problem. Nobody's ever questioned my advocacy or my objectivitiness with any kinds of stories that deal with the Latino community. But they will if-- as a gay journalist, they will. They'll question why I think this needs to be done.

TIMOTHY ROSE: I also think that there's that blatant homophobia in the way that people try to be so unbiased in their coverage of gay and lesbian issues and the gay and lesbian community statewide. I mean, I agree with you. I think that, that kind of question would never be asked of an African-American reporter that you're advocating.

But we have to see all these articles. We always have to have these idiots who are talking about how the civil rights bill is going to legalize pedophilia and bestiality and stuff like that to make the story balanced. And I'm sick and tired of it. And I think many people in our community and outside of our community are getting really tired of it too. If you do a story on the Jewish community and the Twin Cities, do you have to talk to neo-Nazis to make it balanced? I don't think so.

KATHY: George, any comments on this?

GEORGE HOLDGRAFER: I think it's really interesting. We encountered the same type of problem in the specifically gay and lesbian media. We have a real problem in terms of our biases. Basically, we have to be very careful to present an accurate picture.

Because what happens? We're writing for our own community. And we have certain expectations from the community. And if we report things in a certain way, sometimes, we get a lot of flak for it. We have to remain objective. But oftentimes, we're criticized, if we remain objective, rather than taking one stand or another.

KATHY: We should tell people who we're talking to here. We are talking-- the voice you just heard belongs to George Holdgrafer. Hope I got that last name right, George.

GEORGE HOLDGRAFER: Right.

KATHY: OK, tHE editor of Gays magazine in the Twin Cities. Also with us, Timothy Rose, the communications director of Minnesota's Gay and Lesbian Community Action Council. And also joining us this morning, an editorial writer for the Star Tribune, also the president of the Minnesota Chapter of the National Gay and Lesbian Journalists Association, Jennifer Robles. Jennifer, right before I was reintroducing everyone, you had something that you wanted to say.

JENNIFER ROBLES: I think that this whole question of objectivity is one that I don't know how I feel about it anymore, except that I just try to be fair. I think that all of us come to our work with a certain background and with a certain experience in life. And I don't know that it's possible to be objective.

But I think it's very possible to be fair. And sometimes-- I think Tim is right. I think, sometimes, because we're afraid we're going to be criticized for being too advocate, too much perceived as being too advocacy for gays and lesbians, we'll go the opposite way and probably talk to some people who we really don't need to talk to just to keep the perception that we're being fair. And that's something that you can really get demoralizing after a while, because who wants to continually hear some of the things that the traditional values coalition puts out? They feel they have a point, though, that their view is correct.

TIMOTHY ROSE: Well, but I think that there are-- I mean, there are blatantly racist arguments that some people would put forward, and they feel that their point of view is correct as well. I think that there are many people in American society who either know gay or lesbian people as friends, have family members who are gay or lesbians, co-workers. We are coming out across the country.

So I don't even think that in Minnesota anymore, it's-- someone once told me, well, by your very nature, by your very existence, in reference to the Gay and Lesbian Community Action Council, you are controversial. Well, I mean, I think that that's changing. I don't think that we're really controversial by nature anymore.

And I don't think that just a story that includes gay and lesbian people is controversial anymore. I think that we're seeing more in-depth coverage, more accurate coverage, certainly, the Star Tribune's coverage on Sergeant Lubinsky's coming out on the Minneapolis Police force. I think you're seeing more in-depth coverage within the gay and lesbian journalism that's going on, too, because now, people aren't spending quite so much time justifying the very existence of this community.

KATHY: Let me ask you about coming out. Are more gays and lesbians coming out in mainstream media? Or is it something that you just still don't want to do, especially in broadcasting?

JENNIFER ROBLES: Well, in the last two years, it's really been possible, mostly because of, well, a survey that was taken in about 1986, I think it was, that really showed the kind of discrimination and pressure and stress that people who are in the closet basically were living under. And a lot of that had to do with the dynamic around AIDS. The mainstream media did not cover AIDS.

And it was often the fact that some of the people making those decisions did not cover AIDS was gays and lesbians who were in the closet. And I think, just in the last two years, the National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association formed. And I think the newsroom, mainstream newsrooms, are one of the last industries to really make it possible for gays and lesbians to be openly gay.

And I always say this to people, that no matter what my profession would be, if I was a truck driver or a doctor or a speech therapist, I would want to be open. I'd want to be who I am. And there's certain specific demands of my profession, but I think that it's possible to be a gay journalist. And I think it's only been with the national organization forming that it's given us the support that we needed to be able to do this.

KATHY: What about broadcasters, though? Is that a little different situation?

GEORGE HOLDGRAFER: Broadcasters and TV are even harder than print.

TIMOTHY ROSE: Definitely, I would agree. I also think-- I mean, given the fact that it would be-- I think it would be interesting, certainly, to see an openly gay or lesbian broadcaster in television in the Twin Cities market. I think that in Greater Minnesota, given the fact that there is no civil rights protection, it would be impossible at this point in time.

I clearly understand and sympathize with gay and lesbian journalists that I have met in Greater Minnesota who work at TV stations. Some of whom are fairly out, and some of whom are not at all. I understand what a very difficult dilemma that is for them and how stressful that must be on their life. And I don't envy them. But without civil rights protection, I think many people across the state, broadcast journalists, not the least of which, have no protection.

KATHY: Let's talk about-- go ahead, George.

GEORGE HOLDGRAFER: I think even in the Twin Cities, though, it's a problem. Because I know one person who is quite well-known in broadcast journalism, who just simply cannot come out. It's an open secret within the community, but it's just something that he can't come out publicly with.

KATHY: What about hiring practices? There are affirmative action programs for minority journalists. And people would say, gays and lesbians are considered a minority. How should you be treated in hiring? Would you want to see a specific program for gays and lesbians?

JENNIFER ROBLES: Well, that's a catch 22. Because technically, you aren't supposed to ask somebody's sexual orientation as part of the employment process. But as far as on the positive end of it, I mean, the National Lesbian and Gay Journalist Association October or September convention in New York is going to have a job fair component to that.

So I mean, I'm hoping that, perhaps, the Star Tribune can go and send a recruiter. I mean, we send recruiters to the Latino conference and the African-American conferences. I think that it's really more of a proactive kind of situation. Certainly, if you get a resume that says you're a member of the National Lesbian and Gay Journalists Association, then you know, basically, you're dealing with somebody who's pretty open about their sexuality.

TIMOTHY ROSE: I also just wanted to follow up, since we were talking about the civil rights bill here in Minnesota. There are no quotas whatsoever that are attached to that bill. And I just want to be really, really clear about that. There's no affirmative action piece to that.

JENNIFER ROBLES: OK. And the Star Tribune has had sexual preference, sexual orientation as part of their EEO work standards for some time. And I think-- I don't know, we're taking a survey to see if that's true or not true among some of the other media organizations.

KATHY: What's the story behind the National Association of Gay and Lesbian Journalists? Why was that formed initially? Was there some event that occurred that prompted that formation?

JENNIFER ROBLES: Well, it was a dramatic event. At the time, Leroy Aarons, who was executive editor of the Oakland Tribune, he's the one who conducted the survey of 200 journalists, gay and lesbian journalists, of what it was like to live and work in mainstream journalism. Mostly in newspapers, I guess it was. And then when he presented the results at a prominent publishers' convention, he came out.

And he had been in the industry for a long time. He held a very prominent position. And he blew people away, basically. And I think the overwhelming support that he got for what he did ended up creating this organization, which has-- we had our initial founding convention in San Francisco last June. And that was really dramatic.

We got a videotape sent to us from the New York Times publisher, Arthur Sulzberger, saying that they were going to more or less write much more about gay and lesbian issues in a positive way. And anybody who's picked up the New York Times in the last year and a half can say that that's true. They've also, as a corporation, are moving toward domestic partner benefits. Which was amazing to come and hear the New York Times, which for years did not even cover AIDS, to hear the publisher say--

TIMOTHY ROSE: Or use the word gay.

JENNIFER ROBLES: To use-- yeah, exactly. That they're going to openly recruit for gay journalists, and they're going to provide good working conditions. It was just a great shot in the arm. And hopefully, the print media can make it easier for broadcast and TV people to come out.

And it's not even so much that you have to come out and take a position in the community, I mean, it's just important that the people you work with know who you are. And I think that there's lots of different levels of coming out. But I do think that it's important for people to feel like they can be who they are on their job.

TIMOTHY ROSE: I wanted to ask you-- I mean, I obviously advocate for this. But I mean, do you think that it is objective coverage as opposed to-- I mean, don't you think that the way that the New York Times is covering it, the Star Tribune is covering it, is more just a reflection of American society than sort of--

JENNIFER ROBLES: Exactly. I mean, I think that was what was always tilted in the negative was that the whole invisibility about gays and lesbians was lesbians was not the way real life is. And the newspapers just weren't-- mainstream media was just not reflecting what was really the reality out there.

KATHY: I mean, because, sometimes, you see video and pictures of, say, gay pride parade, and all you see are men with earrings. And that's not necessarily-- not all gay men wear earrings. And not--

TIMOTHY ROSE: I'll take it out right now, Kathy.

KATHY: But I think, sometimes, the photographs and pictures are real stereotypical. Would you say that that's true?

JENNIFER ROBLES: Oh sure.

TIMOTHY ROSE: And sensational.

KATHY: Well, in the film that's making the rounds, The Gay Agenda, that I forget what organization has put that out, it's all the worst kinds of things you can think of. And a lot of us have been saying in response to that, well, if you went down to Daytona Beach during, what do they call it, the college spring break, you would find the same display of heterosexuality that people find it, perhaps, offensive in the gay pride parade.

TIMOTHY ROSE: Or Bourbon Street in Mardi Gras.

KATHY: Right. So a lot of times, that's the only thing people think about when they think about gays and lesbians.