(00:00:00) It's six and a half minutes past 12:00. This is midday from Minnesota Public Radio. I'm in today for Bob Potter. And in about 10 minutes will be going live to Northrop Auditorium for Carlson lecture by former Middle East hostage Terry wait, he's titled his speech the test of humanity resolving conflict. Terry Wade is the personal assistant to the Archbishop of Canterbury and is expected to speak about his role in negotiating the freedom of hostages with such leaders as Libya's Muammar. Al-gaddafi, Iran's Ayatollah, khomeini's and the radical group Islam. Holy war. He'll also talk about his personal ordeal as a hostage and his mission for the future for this special live broadcast. I'm joined by Professor Caesar Fair up who is a Middle East specialist in the history Department of the University of Minnesota and Professor Pharaoh is at (00:00:47) Northrop Auditorium Professor. Thank you for joining us about to be here. Let's start with some background if we could what precipitated in the 1980's the taking of hostages. Well, I think there was a lot of disaffection by certain extreme parties in the Middle East concerning policies of the West towards that part of the world following. Of course, there are the Iranian Revolution of the Year preceding there was a lot of wellnitz brought this way a lot of sentiment whipped up in favor of an Islamic movement to replace the other so-called ideologies that had failed nationalisms and particular in Iran and the Arab world and they made a big case out of the Palestine situation kind of co-opted it for themselves as an Islamic movement and its most of these Islamic extremist groups who have been involved who got themselves involved in taking hostages because at the same time some of the their people were being held in camps and Israel and some of them had been jailed in Kuwait and they thought this would be one way to put pressure on the west of put pressure on these governments to release the Least their own so they could release this you mentioned that one reason for the hostage-taking was to show opposition to certain Western policies. Which policies well, let's say The Hangover from the Sade's and Iran the US apparently had support of the show and the Rebellion against the Shah left a residue of heart feeling towards OS American specially and the the Arab is ready dispute, which was kind of an away attributed to u.s. Quiet or tacit endorsement of Israeli policy not being resolved Palestinians being of course from their point of view abused while they thought okay, if us and Israel are working together when we're going to consider the US and enemy the British of course always worked with us and vice versa. So whenever they can pick up a hostage here and there just to sort of acquire some leverage against the West they did it. How did Terry Waite get involved? In the all hostage dealings Rana was a very strange situation with him because he had some good rapport where these groups and he had been shuttling back and forth kind of like it says here the Henry Kissinger of the the Archbishop of Canterbury, but at one point there was some allusion to his being kind of quietly recruited to locate where the hostages were and they claimed there was some secret device that they discovered and then they they nabbed him and decided he was no longer a bona fide a go-between but really now was trying to serve the intelligences of the West some of the reports. I've read indicate that mr. Weight may have been used by the United States and specifically a national security advisor Ollie North during the arms for hostages dealings. They would get Terry wait on the scene. Imply. The Terry Waite was responsible for the hostages being loosened and therefore Not show evidence that it was an arms for hostages deal. Well, that's an interesting point of view, which I had not been familiar with hitherto. I did know that he was being used and in some fashion whether he agreed to be used or not. It's something else perhaps today. We'll learn more about that of some people address pertinent questions that effect to Terry. All right. Well, what why did these various groups or the country's behind the groups eventually decide to free most of the hostages now first, correct me or they're still two German hostages well to the best of my knowledge. They are still being held but there isn't much of a hue and cry raised on their behalf of at the moment in Germany. Anyway, so we don't know what the outcome of that but that was not Central to our point of view in terms of involvement. They picked up some friends to and the French I think bought them out. The Germans had done the same thing. They had obtained the release of some The previous hostages by making monetary offers to the groups and we never succumb to that least not directly and not to my knowledge. Well did the so-called New World Order have anything to do with that the fact that the Soviet Union disintegrated and the parts of the Soviet Union were were less likely to support various Arab states. Well, I'm not so sure that that would make a difference to this particular group, but they don't trust you and States no matter what it does as long as the u.s. Is still pretty much behind Israel. They would always consider United States as a hostile. I mean, I'm talking about the Arab Hezbollah group in Lebanon, but I do believe that there is kind of relaxing of atmosphere all the way around in the area and the government in Iran today and many believe that they have an impact direct impact or say or influence over the Hezbollah in Lebanon may have sent out the word to ease up and that's so some Goodwill there. Say they serve their purposes and now we are trying to construct perhaps a new relationship whether it's in the context of a new world order or the old order. I can't tell if it's point. You mentioned that one of the goals of these groups was to promote an Islamic State such as that that was created in Iran. The Islamic fundamentalist movement seems to have at least slow down. But what did they accomplish if anything by the by the decade of Hostage taking and hostage holding? Oh just holding the US and check at Bay for preventing it from taking any moves that would be detrimental to themselves. Not only to what they represent. I think essentially that will and as a leverage because us had pretty much held up some of the accounts of Iran in this country and they wanted to get them freed and we did make some concessions there. Well did the error Movement lose anything as a result of the hostage-taking? Well, I don't know if you want to call the Arab movement because they the people behind it. We're not Doing it in the name of Erebus and are doing the name of their perception of Islam and the role of Islam politically, but it affected the whole Arab region did it? Yes indeed it did because most of this was done in the Leviton part and Lebanon, as you know was in turmoil for most of those years for the last decade or so. Well that did it in any way setback relations between some of the Arab states in the west up to a point. I think it did the Gulf War caused a reshuffling as you mentioned earlier the breakup of the Soviet Union made some of those guys have second thoughts as to where their future lies it is which camp or with witch power in the west or the East and I think that has had some impact to timeout to reconsider where we're heading next. I should think is what they're thinking. All right Professor Farrah. Thank you for joining us. I appreciate it. Thank you Professor Caesar. Farah is a Middle East specialist in the history Department of the University of (00:07:51) Minnesota and Professor Farah is at Northrop Auditorium. We will be going there live in less than a half a minute. For a Carlson lecture by former Middle East hostage Cherry wait the title of his speeches the test of humanity resolving conflict. Mr. Wait, the was the personal assistant to the Archbishop of Canterbury and time permitting at the end of mr. Weights remarks in the question and answer period Professor farewell join us again for summary and Analysis. (00:08:42) And we're waiting for the host to begin the introductory remarks. Mr. White will be speaking. The speech is not quite ready yet. I understand lift up. Hold up a minute. All right, maybe we can get Professor Farrah back on the line. I'm here. Alright professor of couple other points then I'd like to ask about the the hostage-taking incidents was the release of the hostage in any way responsible for the beginning of the Middle East peace talks, which are now underway. Well, let's put it this way. It was a good move it to sort of create an atmosphere. That would be more conducive. I mean there's red. He's at hope to get some of the their own men held supposedly by what are these groups in Lebanon released and there had been negotiations going back and forth and they made it conditional that we would release some of your people a few would release these the ones you're holding alive still and the u.s. Of course was involved in this swap deal nor negotiations leading some kind of swap deals and there was a preliminary results here, but I would say one has to see then in that context. There is a perception that they're coming now we're going to have to okay being is here. The speaker is here Professor. Thank you very much. And we are gonna live to Northrop Auditorium. (00:10:20) I'm in Chu dean of the Humphrey Institute Institute of public affairs. It's my pleasure to welcome you to another Humphrey Institute Carlson lecture. We're pleased to see such a large turnout for today's lecture. We in fact had two additional auditoriums lined up to accommodate people that I suspect some of the people that might be here are over there as is usual the lectures being broadcast live on Minnesota Public Radio and kuo William radio is also being transmitted by satellite uplift to the other campuses of the University of Minnesota. We welcome those in the audience's at these other sites. This lecture is lecture series is made possible by a generous gift from the Carlson companies. This gift makes it possible for us to continue to bring outstanding speakers to the community such as we have today. We're grateful for that support for today's event. We have as a co-sponsor of the Episcopal Diocese of Minnesota, and we appreciate their support as well. Let me now introduce the person who will introduce the speaker the right Reverend Robert Anderson Bishop Anderson is in his 15th years Episcopal Bishop of Minnesota has many accomplishments to his credit one of which is the establishment of the House of Prayer that Collegeville Minnesota not only is the House of Prayer is Center for a new emphasis on spirituality throughout the diocese. It also represents a remarkable ecumenical and ever be The first Anglican prayer Center to be built on the grounds of a Roman Catholic monastery. In addition to the usual responsibilities of leading a Diocese of the church. Bishop Anderson has been involved with several diplomatic and international missions of his own 1988. He was an Episcopal representative to discussions with the Pope in Rome in preparation for that years worldwide Gathering of Anglican Bishops. He was very involved with Minnesota's companion diocese relationship with the Diocese of butare in Rwanda leading and hosting several visits between these sister dioceses of the Anglican communion closer to home his ability to listen and speak with humility and respect has been instrumental in his effective Ministry with American Indian people of ministry, which has broken new ground in Intercultural understanding although Bishop Anderson has spoken out forcefully on National issues when the need has arisen he prefers to deal with Cutting Edge, so, So issues such as the role of women in the church Justice for the victims of sexual exploitation and respect for gay and lesbian people by being a caring Pastor listening to and standing with individual people in other various situations Lut. Welcome Bishop Anderson. my sense about Terry wait Is that he is a person? Who doesn't like can't unctuousness or hypocrisy? Terry has been speaking for himself for more than 53 years. And his courageous action the action of his conscience is known worldwide. Blessed are the peacemakers? I called one of his closest friends in the United States earlier this week. And he confirmed my own intuitions. Terry Waite is a deeply moral man and introvert who has learned to be extroverted. Basically, he is a private person who is incredibly loyal to his wife Frances three daughters a son and his friends. He is a man who genuinely believes that a religious perspective is essential to human understanding. And he has a unique sensitivity and respect for the religious traditions of the world community. As an active layman in the Anglican Episcopal tradition he affirms in his heart and in his mind and in his soul that reconciliation lies at the nerve center of what it means to be alive. And his ministry in the turmoil and violence of the world demonstrates a passionate regard for the spiritual priority of this activity. Terry Waits reconciling Ministry begins and ends with the recent question wistfully posed by Rodney King in the City of Angels. Can't we just get along together? Terry says his friend Dean Philip Turner of the Episcopal Seminary at Yale. Terry believes in a Transcendent God who rules over nation's racial polarities political systems and ideological struggles. He believes in the fundamental value of reconciliation on an international level. In Uganda, he worked in the church to bring anglicans and Roman Catholics together. In southern Sudan he was instrumental in forming a coalition of church leaders and gorillas building a complicated process toward reconciliation. In the agony of his negotiations with and for hostages. He maintained a non-anxious presence loyal to his beliefs and his friends. And he has strong moral convictions and compassionate concern about the fate of hostages and their families led him to be taken himself as a hostage in Beirut in 1987. Terry's almost five years of captivity have forged in Him A Renewed Inner Strength vitality and vision. Some of you may have heard Terry wait interviewed by Barbara Walters. But in fact, this is his first appearance before an American audience since his release. At an earlier breakfast today. I was privileged to hear him witness to his faith in God. His struggles with that faith and the tradition which sustained him in captivity. In a strange and wondrous way his confinement suffering and Solitude has given him profound insights reflective insights into the struggle for truth in the arena of community and public life. the Hubert H Humphrey Institute of public affairs the Carlson lecture series and the Episcopal Diocese of Minnesota are proud to present to you Terry Waite and ambassador of reconciliation speaking to you on the test of humanity resolving conflict Terry wait. Dean shoe Bishop ladies and gentlemen first thank you so much for your warm. Welcome to this city and this University. and this institute when I was last here in this part of America in the mid 80s, it was in the depths of winter. I think one of the coldest days I've ever experienced. And I couldn't believe it when I arrived yesterday to discover that you do have beautiful warm weather. But I put on my winter suit. As the subject I should be dealing with today. Is one that is a serious subject and at times somewhat upsetting. I thought it would be appropriate to begin on a light-hearted note but a true one. since my release I have been fortunate enough to receive an enormous number of letters letters from every corner of the world. Let us from every state in the United States of America. a great number of letters from children and they have been remarkable for their sincerity their honesty and their humor. week or so ago I was asked if I would begin if I would start the London Marathon. And the reason I was asked to do that is because the marathon takes place literally in my backyard at least it begins there. And I agreed to do that. And as I was walking across the heath the green to begin the marathon, there are a group of children. And as I often do I stop to speak to them? And I went on my way and forgot about it. And then came a letter a few days later from the mother of two children to whom I spoke. and she said as you were coming across the grain. Jamie who's seven said oh look. There's a very famous man. Mister wait, he was a hostage for five years. She said you came across and you spoke to them. And then she said did you notice how the little one Janice of four was staring at you? When you went away Janice said mummy is it true was that man really an ostrich for five years? I couldn't resist telling you that store. I'm reminded of another letter a second letter. Which I came across shortly after I was released from captivity. When I was taken captive, I left my hotel room. With nothing in my pockets, but a notebook and a pencil knowing full. Well that when I went to meet the kidnappers and I shall return to the story in the moment. That I would be thoroughly searched and would have most likely to undergo a complete change of clothing. The reason for that being that kidnappers would be suspicious that one might be carrying such things known as locator devices that would enable someone to be tracked. They wanted to be absolutely sure that I was clear and clean as I was of course. I left all my luggage in my hotel room. Intending to pick it up. When I returned and go back to London. But of course I was kept in five years went by. Someone had the common sense to go to my room and collect my luggage and deposit it with the British Embassy in Beirut. And five years later, I got my briefcase back. And I went through it. And then I discovered in there another letter. this time the letter was from the wife of a resident of Beirut who had been taken hostage She said why should this happen to us? Alberto did no harm to anyone. We lived here peacefully. all our working lives and now he's gone, and I don't know if he's alive or if he's dead and desperate. I'm at my Wit's End no one seems able to help please. Please do something. And I read that letter five years later and I confess to you that tears came to my eyes. pitiful plight of people who cannot mourn Who see their loved ones taken? And then here no more and never know whether those persons are alive or dead. Alec Colette as another case in point the British hostage his wife an American living here in this this country. Still after all those years never sure never knowing it is a desperate and miserable position to be in. It is because that we at Lambeth palace in London, which is the office and headquarters of the Archbishop of Canterbury because we received please from families of hostages that we ever became involved in this matter at all. It wasn't because we believed in any way that we were expert at diplomacy. None of us would claim for one moment to be trained diplomats. It wasn't that we claimed a special insight into International affairs. We knew something of the world. Of course, the church was present in most countries of the world and our information about different countries and different situations was Broad and extensive but we made no claim to be particular experts in that field. The only simple claim we could make was this that we will try and do something for you if all else appears to her failed. At least we will try and exercise some activity and hopefully some compassion on your behalf. And response to that sort of request that we ever became involved in hostage negotiations. The first one that came my way in the early 1980s. Was in Iran. Now around at the time was undergoing extraordinarily difficult days. The Revolution was in full swing. There was chaos on the streets. familiar institutions were collapsing and changing And indeed it was difficult and hard to understand almost impossible to understand what the outcome of that particular Revolution would be it so happened that in the midst of the turmoil. some Anglican missionaries Dr. John Coleman and his wife were taken hostage. Gene word L the Scots woman single lady living and working in Iran disappeared. And for Iranian members of our church also vanished. and for months Diplomatic efforts made by governments took place with no avail. No news was received. Finally as a result of appeals from families. I decided to do try and visit and see what could be done. I made application to the Iranian authorities in London. And got no response. This was just before Christmas. finally I given up. Hope of ever getting to see these hostages over the Christmas period And I said to my secretary it looks as though nothing is going to happen. I'm going to do my shopping. And I went out to do Christmas shopping when I came back. She said we've just got permission that you can go. And so on the day before Christmas I set off for a run not knowing what to find or what to expect. When I arrived in Iran. It was a sorry state. As I already mentioned there was turmoil on the streets. It was a frightening experience in many ways as you know. From your own experience in this country how frightening Street violence can be. It's so irrational. One never knows where one is one never knows just who might be attacked and what damage might be done. That was the sort of situation one went to and of course the very small Anglican Church in that country was under tremendous pressure and threat so afraid that they had had not held a public service for a long long time. I got on the telephone. and spoke to various church leaders lay people and said come and meet me in the church. This is Christmas. At least we will celebrate it together. and I went down to the church not knowing what to expect I got into the small church building. And slowly people came and filled up the whole church building. And I began the Christmas service. And as I climbed into the pulpit to give the address suddenly the door crashed open that the side of the church and in marched five or six revolutionary guards. with their large boots and automatic weapons and the front Pew of the church was empty as it is in most Anglican churches. No one likes to sit at the front. And they sat down. So I began my address and I said I looked at them. And first time I had really come in close touch with Revolution regards. So I said well, you're a little late you've missed the first part of my sermon. I'll start again. So I did. And strangely enough at the end of that address. The leader of the group came to me and said We like what you say come we'll take you to see your people. Now that meant getting in a car. And driving off into the night. with revolutionary guards to an unknown destination and I debated with myself for a moment as to whether or not that risk could be taken. I decided I would take it. The man gave me his hand and said there's a Muslim I give you my word we will take you to see these people. I accepted his word. We drove off through the night. through Tehran to a camp and therefore the first time I was able to meet John Coleman. His wife Audrey. and the Iranian clergy and lay people They hadn't seen anyone from the outside world for a long time and we're totally surprised to see me later. It was possible to get into the Avene prison that formidable prison. in Tehran And they're the first meeting took place with Jean with l. Later, the leader of the Revolutionary guards took me to his home. And he pulled out along with scrapbook. And said look at these pictures. And they were pictures of his family. He was one of seven children almost all of them had been forced to leave education for political reasons. Almost all that family had suffered in one way or another as a result of Oppression. And then he had become one might say they saw themselves as the poor victims in a society. as people who were oppressed and their way of dealing with what they felt to be an enormous sense of Injustice was to fight and to fight back. hard one of the reasons we have this type of trouble in the world Is because very often long-standing sense of fundamental Injustice long-standing grievances, which go unnoticed. And people are pushed into Corners until they feel that there is no other way for them other than the way of violence and violence begets violence. destroys communities and destroys people And brings heartbreak and tears. And bitterness a bitterness that sometimes extends across generations and twists and warps lives. It is a horrible and terrible phenomena. As it happens. There was some understanding between this man and myself and because there was understanding because there was a degree of mutual respect. Because there was a degree of trust. It was possible to see those people released. Now I cannot and do not. Come here today to give concrete models for conflict resolution. What I can say unequivocally is that trust has to be built if we are going to seek the resolution of conflict. more than that Justice must be present and must be seen to be done and experienced. And where there is no trust. And where there is Injustice. Then we shall find that we have the material for violence and breakdown. in Libya another situation again desperate relatives coming to our door and saying please help. again another visit To see Colonel Qaddafi and eventually getting to see him. And going into his presence and noticing that as I went in because I'm very tall he put on his high heel shoes. I'm being asked to sit at his feet as I did. I sat before him as he sat up on his high chair. And discussing and talking with him and eventually again securing the release of those hostages. They're a different situation. Why did he release them there? I think it was a face-saving strategy on his part. hostages have been taken by Young radical revolutionaries Colonel Gaddafi certainly didn't want to alienate the radical revolutionaries. But insofar as one could provide him with a legitimate way of escape from that situation, he could give the hostages to me without alienating himself from the Redick radical revolution is which he did and again hostages were released. Come now to the most painful and difficult experience that of Beirut. again People came to our door asking for help. In this case. It was the Presbyterian Church of the United States. Who came because been where? I've been captured and again nothing seemed to be moving. When the first approach was made to Lambeth. We said no. We just could not get engaged in another situation hot on the heels of working in Libya. They came a second time and we said no, it's just impossible ones too tired and there's too much. I was involved in travels to China and to Australia and to various parts of the world. They came a third time. And we said that he will. We'll see what we can do. I said that knowing this very clearly. And I have to say it very clearly that once the church. picks up the case or case I'm going to say we will follow it. We are totally obliged to follow it to the end. No matter what the cost might be. You cannot pick up the hopes of people and then drop them because it's too difficult. I knew that and I knew that sort of commitment that was being made. I didn't know what it would lead to a my own personal circumstances. again I went to Beirut. Even more Dreadful than the experience in Iran years before. Beirut that sad sad once beautiful city on the Mediterranean in places a smoldering ruin places deep heartbreak Deep misery deep sense of loss. I make contact with the kidnappers. I went to meet them at night. but a secret destination when I got there, they asked me to put on a blindfold. I did so. And then began the discussions. We discussed. And I said, I really need proof that you are the people whom you claim to be that you have access to kidnappers to hostages. The best way you can give me that proof is to take me to see them. They debated amongst themselves and said no, that's too dangerous. In that case I replied. Take this camera. I take with me a Polaroid camera. and bring back photographs I had a copy of a newspaper. I signed my name on the newspaper. Gave it to the kidnappers. And they went away. Sometime later. They returned with a pictures for pictures of for American hostages each holding the sign newspaper. We could then go to the next stage of discussion. What is it you want? Is it money? Absolutely not if it had been money, I certainly would have had nothing to do with it. I do not believe in paying ransom for hostages. It was not money. They wanted either in that case. What is it? They then told me. that they're Muslim comrades who were being held on terrorist charges in Kuwait were being very badly treated. In fact, they were being beaten. And being in humanely treated in the prison in which they were held I had no means of knowing whether this was true or not. But I promised that I would then try and do what I could. To look into the conditions facing these men imprisoning Kuwait. Because whatever they were held for whatever charge they were facing. It would be my belief as I'm sure it would be your belief that people should be treated humanely in prison. I came back home to England. and then visited the White House I met with the then vice president now your president. And told him of my meeting with the kidnappers. And told him the demands that have been made. I hoped and expected that at least I would get some help from some quarter to at least get into Kuwait and at least do something on the humanitarian basis for those men. As it happened. It proved to be impossible to make one step into that country and I was in fact refused a visa on two or three occasions and I tried and tried and tried for a year because that would have been at least a movement forward. They may not have resolved the problem, but it would have been a movement forward. But nothing happened. I believe that. the two Churchman where released to encourage myself and the church to continue our activities on behalf. Of the people in Kuwait. They were released reasonably early father Jenco the Roman Catholic and the Presbyterian minister. And then of course David Jacobson was released. And I was a forewarned that these people were coming out by my contacts in the Middle East and was present to try and keep our involvement and to try and keep the whole process moving forward. When the rug was pulled from under my feet as it was by the allegations that arms have been exchanged for hostages. I was put personally in a very very difficult position. There was absolutely no way in which the church or myself as a representative of the church would ever engage in that activity of exchanging arms for hostages. Absolutely. No way. Nor would we cooperate with anybody whom we knew was engaged in that? But one has to say in dealing in the world of Hostage release. One has to relate to a whole variety of people. Some whose motives and activities are known clearly to you. Others who you are less sure about and many whom you just do not know at all what they're up to. That world is a dark and difficult and unpleasant world. and often the brutal world as I've described it for me. It was like walking through a minefield. And I tried on a mine. but when the rug was pulled from under my feet There was only one course of action open to me. And that was for my point of view to go back to meet the kidnappers again and to see if anything could be rebuilt. And I could do that with a clear conscience knowing that my integrity and the Integrity of the church was sound. If I'd have had the slightest doubt about that. You wouldn't have called me back in Beirut. I went back. alone feeling vulnerable praying and hoping that we might find a new way of proceeding. I meant the kidnappers for the second time. the principal negotiator a Muslim Fundamentalist said to me Terry Anderson Tom Sutherland are sick. They may die. As a member of the church will allow you to visit them. I said you keep me. He said no. I said give me your word as a Muslim that you want. He gave me his word and his hand. I still said I'm not sure I must go away and take further advice. I left him. And my Muslim context in Beirut said well if he's given you his word in that way. He will not keep you. I still wasn't convinced. But I went back. I met him late at night in an apartment in Beirut. It was raining very dark. And Beirut again was in turmoil. We went to a car. The car stopped I was blindfolded and put into another car. I was taken to a building. Take to another building. Then taking eventually into a garage where trap door was lifted and I found myself. In one of the underground prisons of Beirut in a small child cell deep underground. Terry Anderson once referred to these prisons as a Lebanese gulag places where people can linger for years Be totally forgotten. There were people in cells next to me. I never knew who they were and to this day have no knowledge. They may still be there people from the Middle East. I don't know. That led to a long interrogation. Why was I taken? I can only surmise. I think this and I think this is a reasonable surmise. That recognizing that we as a church had failed to make progress with Kuwait and recognizing that it didn't look as that we were going to get anywhere. The thinking was that perhaps then by taking me person who had a high-profile would in fact give them Leverage. I think that's a reasonable surmise. Before I was taken I made a video tape because I suspected that my chances of coming back was small and I said on the tape. It was not to be made public unless I failed to return after several days. And but if I was taken hostage, there was to be no Ransom paid and no exchange made. I had to be true to what I had said in other situations. That tape was eventually made public. In the days of the interrogation, I will not go into detail. It was not easy. Then followed four years of total isolation chained to the wall often in the dark No one to speak to no radio no news of the outside world nothing. a Time when the three vows that I taken before I was captured meant so much to me. no regrets No self-pity. No over sentimentality. those three vows at least in part helped me through that experience. There's much to be said about it and I'm currently spending my days in the University of Cambridge and Trinity Hall reflecting and writing those experiences. I hope that they'll be made available next year. When I was finally released after almost five years. the kidnappers apologized They said that they were sorry for what they've done and some of them went so far as to say. That hostage-taking. They realize now really did serve no real useful purpose. That was that one came home. to the United Kingdom But came home, you know. with Deaton convictions much strengthened by the experience in a strange way. believing more than ever in the need for justice the Need For Truth the need for integrity in our society. Believing that that's not just a matter for those who would have political office. Of course, they must be just but it's a matter for each and every one of us. We get the politicians we get the leaders we deserve. Justice and truth and integrity must run right through the community. And to go back to my earlier point where it is absent then conflict will be there and all the spoils of conflict will be around it. I came back also strengthened. in my own personal faith not believing for one moment that I'm necessarily a better person, but perhaps just a little bit more wisdom. And perhaps just a little bit more sympathy to be able to understand why kidnappers and others do the things they do. And perhaps just a little more ability to recognize that bitterness if I were to have it. Would destroy me? The bitterness if I were to allow it. Gradually distort me as a person. Kill me. If I can sum up all this that I've been saying on there's so much more to say. It's this. But I have come away. recognizing that in my life It's not always been possible to live totally truth like truthfully. No human being can. But truth is something that is both hard and beautiful. It has a beauty all of its own. When you stand on it, no one can ever touch you. And Truth must lie. At the heart of all our dealings in conflict resolution real truth truth that penetrates to the heart of the problem truth. That is full of sympathy and full of gentleness and yet at the same time Pierce's to the heart of the problem if I have a philosophy to put to you which I would wish to follow in the days that lie ahead. When I hope to return to this field and to work more actively in troubled parts of the world, it would be this. To enable the weak and the powerless. to be strong to enable the strong. to be just and to enable the just to be compassionate Thank you. We have questions from the audience try to group these together a bit because we have quite a large number. Let's start with a simple one Terry. Do you think trade should be made for hostages do I think do you think trade should be made for hostages trade? Depends what sort of trade you're speaking about generally speaking. I don't believe that. Those who take hostages should be traded with. Because I do think that encourages. Those who take hostages to think that they got away with it once they might as well get away with it. Again. It's totally wrong to use innocent people as Pawns in that sort of a game. So the general answer to that is no but I do believe that it's white in order and very desirable very often to try and talk to those who take hostages and to try and understand what it is that they're seeking therefore. That's the line. I've always taken but not the trading second question. What do you think is the biggest misconception the Western world has of the Arab world in at the Arab world has about westerners. Will they interestingly enough a colleague of mine in Cambridge? Who's a Muslim scholar has just produced The Book addressing himself to those very issues and he said in that book. One of the things that the Arab world or the Islamic World in general might take note of from the West regarding the whole hostage. Saga was the very great concern there is in the West for the individual. He said that's been so noticeable. He was referring to the United Kingdom in the prayers and activities of people on behalf of individuals whom they didn't know personally. He said that something we ought to learn from but to come and he goes on to deal with other questions of understanding and misconception, I think. We really have such a long way to go in understanding the Arab world and the genuine hopes and aspirations of those people. I think they're remarkably lovely people in many ways. full of hospitality full of wisdom and often driven to desperation because they feel their voice is not heard. And feel that they're genuine aspirations are not heard and I think there is a deep feeling of almost a deep inferiority there because of that and I would like to see a great more deal more work done in promoting travel and understanding so that the communities can get different communities can get to know each other. I think from this side the dominant impression of the West is of Ruthless commercial exploiters. That's how they see the West utterly totally absolutely ruthless in their exploitation of their resources and they feel caught on the one hand. They recognize that they need the West for their own Economic Development and on the other hand they resent it because they feel they're being exploited. Those are broad stereotypes. I think if they were able to get to know a lot of people ordinary people in America, they'd find that there's a warm-hearted generosity in this country as there is a warm-hearted generosity which we would find if we got to know more in the Arab world. I think those are simple points. Thank you, when told that he epitomized courage. Terry Anderson said that he only did what he had to Then he told reporters Terry. Wait is the one who was really courageous question. What is Terry White's definition of courage. That's an easy one. Yes. It takes real courage to face the truth about yourself. I think if you confess the truth about yourself as you really are. I think that takes the greatest courage that anyone can muster question. Thank you for coming here today. I know that you probably credit your religious beliefs for getting you through this, but can you tell us what you did with the minutes and the hours and days. What were your thoughts? How could I take that and use it? well, that's that's that's very very interesting question and it's interesting to me because I'm just at this point just before I came here writing about that and I'm writing about the things that I thought about day by day and there's so much and I can only give you a brief answer but I mean I thought of my friends might children. My daughter's I knew would be graduating in my absence. And I thought oh goodness me fancy missing that that's terrible thing. You know, I don't know. Oh goodness. And then I thought what a fool I am to be sitting here. What a fool to stick my neck into the lion's mouth in that way. then I thought Oh. Sometimes I thought I was totally forgotten. Sometimes I thought I would die and sometimes I was extremely happy I tell you when I was extremely happy If Ever I got a book which I really enjoyed and I knew no one would disturb me all day (01:08:02) and I could get into the bore and I could read (01:08:05) it and I could get behind the plot and I could get into the mind, you know, I did get some books and I was able to really fall in love with a lot of authors. That was marvelous. The other thing I did in captivity. You've got to find a way of structuring today. Although I was chained I tried to do exercise and keep myself healthy and I did a lot of mental arithmetic just to keep my mind going some days which your blank and empty I'd set myself a very difficult problem in mental arithmetic which would take me three or four days to solve and then I come back and try and prove it another way. And then I also wrote my autobiography autobiography. I'd know pencil or paper. I did it in my head and I wrote novels in my head. I remember one night setting out to start a novel on Thursday night and I got so engrossed with it. I went all Thursday night or Friday Friday night Saturday morning Never Smell and completed it on Saturday lunchtime. I might publish it. Wonder (01:09:10) if I can remember it. It's all committed to (01:09:15) let me let me take the question a different direction. I got to put two together. Do you feel that the American government used you and Any views comments on your alleged connection with Oliver North? Yes, I mean Oliver North was the person designated by the American Administration to deal with the hostage question and insofar as he was it would have been extraordinary if there had been no contact between myself and the person designated. I mean that's clear and straightforward answer to that was I used I don't honestly know all the details. I still don't know the details as to what was taking place. I can say it looks like it as far as I can see it looks as though I was but I'm not the best person to answer that really other people if they wish will or will not answer that question. That's how I'd respond to it is question circles back a little bit on earlier question. Did you ever get angry with the people who held you hostage? Yes, you could say something to the people today. What would you say to them? Well, I did get angry at times and sometimes because normally I wasn't angry if I did get angry if sometimes upset them and they would say oh my goodness, you know, don't don't get angry weather's like that and I said, well, there's a reason for it. You know, I mean, I remember saying to one of my guards you are a bad man. Is it what me that man? I only got me chained to the wall for five years. Why should he be a bad (01:11:01) man? But (01:11:05) I did. Yes. I have to confess I did get angry at times and I personally believe there's a legitimate place for anger in relationships. I don't like I don't like it to spill over into violence, but I think there's a place for religion legitimate expression of feeling anger being a legitimate expression of feeling in certain circumstances on the whole though other times. I found myself feeling sorry for them because I thought they were caught up in there in a movement which is much bigger than they were we used almost as pawns and therefore have very little freedom of movement. So one must be sorry for people who are caught in that position. What would I say to them today? Well, I would like to ask them what they think they'd achieved and I'd like to ask them if they felt by going through this experience. There's a help them in any way that they developed in any way they have as I've said help me in a strange sort of way. So I'm not bitter no bitterness at all. I recognize that these things happened in the world and happening live. Somebody wants you to bring the question back to the United States. How can we begin to resolve racial conflict in our society? Well, I think in ways that I think are really like the heart of the American character and the American Personality and I preface this by saying it is not for me from the old country to come and lecture you on how to behave and I hope that you won't think I'm doing that but I would think by following that which is natural to you by always maintaining that passionate desire for justice and to see Justice Done. And recognizing that there are in justices in all our societies. Both between different groupings of people. There are economic Injustice has that whole range of them and by always keeping a passionate eye out for Injustice and never allowing it to get away to run away with itself while trying to forget it anything. That's probably the greater danger of trying to push it to one side into the ghetto into the corner and try and forget it and then it comes out it leaps out like a wild animal with weeks terrible Vengeance. So I think that's one of the things to follow that which is natural to the American people and maintain that strong desire not only to promote justice but to see Justice Done in this country. Where it isn't you have seen in your own experience what it does. I think that's a very short hand answer. There's much more to it than that. Somewhat related question. How is problem-solving affected in a society where politics and religion are inseparable as compared with Western cultures where the two are supposedly more separate. It's a very difficult question to answer, isn't it? The difference between problem solving in countries where religion and politics are inseparable. I think the first thing I would like to say is this. that it appears as though in certain Islamic countries there is that closeness that Binding Together those two elements And yet one knows very well that it isn't as close as all that it actual practice at times that there are often wide differences. And therefore I think the first thing I would say about that question is one would want to examine more closely the stereotypes presented by the question because where it appears to be so unified are often vast discrepancies and where it appears to be so separate in our society. They're often very close linkages. So first of all, I just want to question myself the basic question themselves. I'm not sure they're as absolute as that. Really good to put two questions together first. We heard you stayed on a PBS television interview that your Bible seemed irrelevant during the time of your imprisonment. What significance does your Christian faith have in your life. Now the second question from a different person how has your understanding of God been altered by your experience in captivity? Well the first one if you heard that then that is a mishearing. I did not say that what I said was that the Bible was not necessarily a book brought me great comfort that's different. What I said was that I found it made me angry at times. What I said was I found it disturbing and why because when I was in prison and in isolation, I read the Bible. it spoke so powerfully regarding the truth of human nature. And how much truth. Can you bear when you're in a situation like that? I mean how much introspection can you take and the Bible forces you to be truthful because you know the Bible the Old Testament in particular is so full of all different stories some of them really quite horrific. But when you look at it, you see goodness me here is the picture of human beings as they are without gloss. And that penetrates to you that sometimes doesn't bring necessarily the sort of comfort the sweet sort of comfort that we sometimes want, you know, the comfort of being rocked in the arms of the great mother. It isn't that at all. It says if you're going to follow this particular line, then you've got to follow the line of truth and truth penetrates and Cuts Like a two-edged sword. That's what I was saying and secondly understanding of God. Who can understand God? Not me. I think God remains a supreme and great and remarkable wonderful mystery, but the mystery that we're shown in part. In our faith, we understand that to be through the person of Christ who shows us the human face of God other faiths have other insights into the nature of God and into the great mystery. That is God and I have a profound reverence and respect. For God and for the mystery that surrounds God and for my fellow men and women who ever they may be from whatever culture they're drawn from whatever part of society because in them it is possible to see something of the mystery of God. One final question. We're going to put two more together again. Turn the question back outward the recent elections and he ran eliminated many fundamentalist from the government will we see a reduction of Iran sponsored terrorism in Lebanon in the world? Will the in Romanian government opened up to the west and finally what would bring about peace in the Middle East (01:19:28) that gives you you've got about a minute and a half to take care of that. (01:19:36) Well first I think so long was President riffs and Johnny is in a in Iran, then I think and there is a chance that he will be able to see to it that there is the gradual opening and there is a reduction in Acts of terrorism. Yes. I think that will be the case on the other hand. He's got to be extraordinarily careful because My just link what I've just said with previous remark. I made namely that it's one thing to be opened gradually open to the west but you're all we're always going to have to deal with this feeling that's there that the West is often perceived and still perceived as being soon as they get an opening. They're going to go through it and exploit. And therefore it's by no means an easy business at all. And I think it requires tremendous care and sensitivity and respect. I think we ought to have you know, a bit more respect for Islam a bit more respect for ways of life that a vastly different to our own. I'd like to see that a bit more because whilst they have done some pretty bad things. We're not immune. We're all human beings. Peace are I'm so delighted. That they've given a woman a chance in the Middle East Hanan ashrawi. And I think she's done wonderfully. Well she happens to come from the University. And just by using her brain using her intelligence. And saying what she said in recent weeks and trying to work so hard in all these peace negotiations. She's done so much done far more than any Act of terrorism as done because acts of terrorism no matter by whom they are perpetrated really set the whole business back years and years and years. Let's not apportion blame in the Middle East. We in the west really are taking must take a large measure of responsibility for the shape of the Middle East as it is now and we can't back out of that. and we have The moral duty to understand it more fully our understandings are so limited. To understand it and to get behind the propaganda. Get behind it. And that's where we need in our universities and in our centers of learning people who will get behind that propaganda who will get behind the parties and positions and get back to the fundamental Point. I've been trying to make in adequately but trying to make in this lecture today what really counts is the real truth. And at the end of the day, that will be known. Give him a big round of applause. (01:23:07) Former hostage Terry Waite speaking live at Northrop Auditorium. That was a Carlson lecture. And it's 130. This is midday on the on Minnesota Public Radio. Today's programming is made possible in part by The Advocates (01:23:26) of Minnesota Public Radio contributors include Cargill supporting Minnesota's tradition of community service and Norwest foundation on behalf of Norwest Investments and Trust. That's it for Midday for this Wednesday. Sarah Myers is our producer Randy Johnson is our engineer Michael Cera been supplied production assistants, and I'm Jim Wagner. Bob. Potter will be back with you next week. (01:23:50) For news information and more each weekday. Join, Minnesota Public Radio for all things (01:23:54) considered. Hello. I'm Gary eichten.