(00:00:00) Time is 12 o'clock. Good afternoon. This is Dan Olsen in st. Paul and midday continues with our studio guests Barbara fry the executive director of the Minnesota lawyers international human rights committee and Professor David Weiss brought from the University of Minnesota law school who is also director of the University of Minnesota human rights Center active with Amnesty International. Both of our studio guests active in the international human rights movement and most recently Barbara's group. The committee issued a report on Albania a country that for many of us. I suppose we had forgotten about because we were so happy about events in Romanian terms of the changeover of government and what may be a less repressive government in that country and they're apparently has been Albania chugging along in its repressive - for how long (00:00:51) Barbara for 40 years the government of Albania. The present government came into power in 1946 after You're throwing out the Italian fascist occupiers in the war and started as the Albanian Communist party. Now known as the Albanian party of Labour and has had only two leaders during that time. The first was a excuse me a man named Denver Hosea who led until 1985 when he died and he's been followed by ramiz Alia and we documented a significant number of human rights violations of the most fundamental kind including absolute abolishment of the practice of religion absolute prohibition on leaving or leaving the country that it's considered treason punishable by death and of course restrictions on freedom of speech freedom of press all the things that were familiar with (00:01:57) we have had a great deal of attention focused on Romania Eastern Europe generally terms of the past few weeks and months from the point of view of the two of you though is the human rights Spotlight still focused on other areas of the world, which haven't been in the news as much recently. I'm thinking of countries especially in Africa China North Korea. Where are the human rights abuses most blatant, David Westbrook. There are problems in every country of the world including our own but you can think of some serious problems that have been the subject of concern. And for example in China where there are large numbers literally thousands of people who have been imprisoned after the gentleman Square killings and one in Africa one might want to mention the situation in Somalia where there is a civil war going on. But in addition there there there's evidence of torture and number of extrajudicial killings a large number of refugees are leaving Somalia into Northern Kenya where they are being sent back into into Somalia so that there's a problem there. And in fact some of the Kenyan authorities have been responsible for a number of deaths in northern northern Kenya just to pick a small area of the world and then there's big let's pick you if you don't have to go too far to look at Central America and the Albums in Central America, it's a rather dismal picture. And then there was what seems now like almost ancient history the change of government in Paraguay. What have we heard about Paraguay recently situation Paraguay has improved there are continuing to be reports of some some evidence of political imprisonment there. But the there they have they have released a large number of the people who were held under stroessner and they're going through the process of democratization sort of similar to Uruguay and Argentina and the the news is generally much more favorable in that country. When you say human rights abuses in the United States. Are you speaking of specific situations obviously into involving individuals, but are you thinking of death row and and the and the issue related to execution well from the perspective of Amnesty International there's no question that the most fundamental human rights problem. In the United States is the death penalty. There are some 2,500 people on death row in the United States in many states. Thank goodness. Not in Minnesota. And but there are there are other problems. There are serious concerns about the fairness of the trials that have been held in Puerto Rico for example against those who are Puerto Rican nationalists. There have been concerns about prison conditions in the institution in Marion, Illinois, and (00:04:59) they're also immigration problems with how we treat aliens who are here applying for Asylum and we still have due (00:05:06) process problems there Mario refugees of boatlift refugees in detention some we're (00:05:12) doing is we still do we know where they are? They're not in Minnesota anymore. The Minnesota Department of Corrections cancelled its contract with the federal government. So I'm not sure there is Federal prisons (00:05:26) varies but I think honestly, I think some of them are still in the Atlanta facility and and some great are down in Louisiana. Our guests are Barbara fry from the Minnesota International lawyers human rights committee and David Weiss brought University of Minnesota law professor active with a number of Human Rights organizations. And now we'll give out the telephone numbers that you can call to place your questions to our to Studio guests in the Twin Cities. You can call us at two two seven six thousand two two seven six thousand listeners outside the Twin Cities with in Minnesota can call us toll-free. There's no charge for this number at 1-866-560-4440. I suppose barbecue sent the report to Albania. What did you hear? (00:06:14) We didn't hear anything Dan. We sent the report in mid-november and asked for a response by the time of publication and we also sent it to their permanent representative to the UN in New York so we know that it got there it wasn't a problem with the males we have also asked for permission to enter the country and didn't get any response on that and we tried twice to get official permission and we tried once to send our lawyers through Greece which has opened its borders a little more than in the past and were unable to actually get anyone inside to do the (00:06:52) documentation. My expectation is that we'll probably hear more when we go to Geneva at the UN Commission on human rights because Albania is beginning to be in the dock in at the UN and I think that Barbara's report will be useful Grist for that Mill and since Romania for example will be out of the dock a bit. Although one doesn't know but what will happen by February March of this year. I think that will probably have some contacts with the Albanian diplomats in Geneva. At least. That would be my expectation. Out getting into a high degree of detail since we have a number of folks waiting on the telephone line and we want to get to The Listener questions. What is the thumbnail response to the question of what use are the various reports that human rights groups do is they're tangible evidence that they work that people are helped. Let me try on one country where I had a good deal of experience in Kenya. For example, I went to Kenya for Amnesty International in December of 86. The report was issued in May of 87 the we gave the report to the government beforehand and the government was very angry and all of a sudden the president of the country stood up and said without anybody knowing why because the report hadn't been issued. He said amnesty is a horrible organization. And in fact, he called it amnesty lies International and one of the many names amnesty has been But nevertheless the practices that were described which were torture disappearance has political imprisonment substantially ameliorated after the report was released and and by mid 88 most of the prisoners have been released many of the of the practices of torture against political prisoners had stopped. There are still continued problems in the country in a few trial political trials going on but the and a few deaths in custody as a result of torture, but by comparison to what I reported in that in that report, there was a significant change now, that's a country that Prides itself on its reputation and its International reputation and it was a bit of a shock for it to to be listed in the in the in a bad report. (00:09:12) Well in the situation of Albania, we know that the Albanian government is nervous not solely because of our report, but because of a number of pressures both internal and external so much so that it recently the The secretary-general in Albania has issued several public statement saying that Albania is not going to change that. It's going to stay the same sort of mouthing its continued concern and while that in some sense is indicates that we're not having an effect. If you read between the lines we really are having an (00:09:45) effect. Well, let's find out what the listeners want to know of our two guests and go to the first telephone caller. Good afternoon. That's you (00:09:52) but here's two questions for Barbara fry one is maybe she could tell us a little more about your organization itself. And how do you compare what relations you have to something more widely known like amnesty itself. And the other one is how does one get a hold of your report on Albania? I've always been kind of interested in obscure countries and I think in Europe, Albania is at the top of the list right Barbara. (00:10:23) The Minnesota lawyers committee was formed in 1983 by a group of lawyers who felt that lawyers in particular could have an effect on on the promotion and protection of Human Rights. We've grown substantially we have about 800 members and you don't have to be a lawyer to be a member. We chose the legal Focus, but we invite non-lawyer members to participate as contributors and as volunteers we act through concrete projects that Albania is just one of probably 40 different projects we have going on we work in all regions of the world both documenting reports documenting violations, but also drafting standards representing Asylum applicants and letter writing and a lot of the traditional pressures used in trying to protect and promote human rights were similar to Amnesty International in the way that we Define human. Send in many of our project approaches to improving human rights were different in that Amnesty International deals particularly with political imprisonment and torture and things surrounding imprisonment. Our mandate is a bit broader. We have a little more flexibility and we're also obviously locally run identity as to where to get to where you get the Albanian report. Please feel free to call our office at 3:00 for 13302 in place an order (00:11:56) will give out that telephone number once more at the end of the program along with the mailing address for Barbara's committee and David if you have some information you want to give out at that time to a you can do it. Similarly. Let's go back now to the telephone lines to hear another listener question. Go ahead. It's your (00:12:10) turn. Yes, good afternoon. My question involves. Our own government's role in the terrible human rights situation in Central America specifically in El Salvador that The killing of the six Jesuits certainly appeared to everybody to be carried out by the military and Christianity confirmed that and it appears from what they're saying that it's Seattle Cottle Brigade and that Brigade as far as I understand does nothing without its us advisors directing it or at the very least knowing what it's doing at all points. There was a book written the American Connection by Michael McClintock a senior researcher for Amnesty International who wrote the book on his own now, if not for amnesty and it details with with meticulous research how the United States helped set up a so-called counter Terror Network in El Salvador essentially the death squad (00:13:09) organizations. All right, let's get the reaction to that point about from the caller David. Well everything he said I would must say I agree with you. I think that question that's posed by what he said is what do we do about it? And there is a substantial amount of us Aid that that's being given to Salvador and the and there's quite a deal good deal of sort of if you wish moral support given to to the Salvadorian government by our Administration and and we have to ask the question should to as US citizens. Not as members of any organizations to what extent do we want our tax dollars to be at work in that way how widespread is the US government's alleged complicity in the repression and torture of peoples in other companies other countries at the behest of their governments. Well, that's a very difficult question. Let's stay with Salvador for just one more second. The what Disturbed me for example was when vice president Quayle went down to Salvador and broke a long-standing taboo against meeting with the person who is associated with the death squads Dobby song and no one had been willing to cede obese on for some time after he had been involved with the killing of the Archbishop Romero and and yet Quail was willing to do that. I think in general the administration's participation for example in this investigation of the killing of the Jesuits has been nefarious to say the least. I mean this business of having this woman, who was the only really good witness under four days of intensive questioning with with Salvadorian Army folks present during the interrogation in Miami under the leadership of the Be I was just sort of unbelievable and and they got caught at it and and and one wonders just exactly what the US government was thinking when they did that kind of thing. We are assured over many years Time by a variety of individuals that are government's complicity with other governments and torture and repression is a long-standing issue. Has it expanded in recent past or is it about the same? I think there are a couple instances. The one of them is the Salvadorian one. The other one is the contrast where there's fairly good evidence that a third is the is that very well documented report that was published in the in the New York Times magazine on Honduras a couple years ago besides that there isn't a huge amount of sort of detailed evidence that one can that, you know where you can cite it. I mean there were always concerns about the international Police Academy from back now, we're going back to the 70s in the 60s but evidence on this issue is very Difficult to obtain and then you know, there is a u.s. Statute which forbids the training of foreign police and interestingly enough. This Administration is trying to get rid of that statute. So as to allow us training and foreign police, but we since the international the bad days of the international police academy and what was documented to have happened in Uruguay number of years ago. They they at least this kind of training should have stopped the military training and the drug enforcement training is still permissible and it's under that rubric that if there is training it goes under that let's go back to the telephone for another question. Go ahead with yours, please (00:16:41) you think the execution of Chichester of Romania after a quickie trial was justified due to his massive crimes and need to end the war. (00:16:53) They're from a human rights perspective perspective is certainly wasn't Justified. There is a right to a fair trial. For for every person no matter what criminal charges are brought against them and it's our position that that that right to Fair trial was breached. In this case. There can be lots of arguments made in the context of all of a quote-unquote war situation and certainly no one is going to jump up and down in defense of ceausescu's in the kind of policies that they had but I think that it probably would have spoken better for the new transitional government if they would have gone out of their way to be fair (00:17:39) apparently the military tribunals and Romania are geared up and going ahead with some public and presumably quite a few private trials so-called do we know much about that (00:17:49) Barbara? Well, it's my understanding that they've said that they will not use the death penalty from now on which is indicates. I think probably their recognition of the world's reaction to the to the Trial and execution of the ceausescu's I haven't followed closely the procedures but I think that there is so much International attention focused on Romania that that I feel that it's getting the kind of international attention. It needs. (00:18:20) I think the Minnesota lawyers committee should consider sending a trial of server to Romania and we sent the Minnesota lawyers committee sent to observers to it to trial under ceausescu and the actually the defendant in that case ultimately came to Minnesota and in the Minnesota lawyers committee was the only organization to get into Romania for some 10 years. I think it would be appropriate given that background for the Minnesota lawyers committee to consider sending somebody to the military tribunals. (00:18:50) I think that there is clearly a role for a lawyer's organization in advising a government that's in transition on how to help set up fair procedures in in trials and other Criminal (00:19:02) proceedings. Let's go back to the telephone for your question. Good afternoon. (00:19:06) I would like to ask why there isn't more attention given to the the oppression of the violations of human rights of the Palestinians that's been ignored since well since we went into Panama and before that with what was going on in Europe that situation is still going on there and I would like to have a little more Mercy for those people even a response (00:19:30) well indeed, there was a lot of media attention about I'd say about a year and a half ago or thereabouts on that issue around the beginning of the intifada, which is now two years old and and last that media attention lasted for about six months. We really ought to be asking you as a media person because it's really the short memory of the 30 seconds of side of the of the media folks. They figure that the attention fan of the American people shouldn't extend that long and therefore they go on to Subjects, but the fact is that there are serious problems in the occupied territories and including the most recent reports of Amnesty International which shows that the that the Israeli government may have been responsible for policies of the of the army which result in the killing of some of the stone throwers. I myself have seen one of these rubber bullets that that we see so much about and I must say I object to the term rubber bullets because what they are are metal balls about about a half an inch in diameter big ones covered with about I don't know. How big is that a very thin patina of rubber and I certainly wouldn't like to get hit with one of those things and idle shot. It's a it's basically a big metal shot and and it and it has killed quite a large number of people. Pull and so when you hear about those rubber rubber bullets what they're referred to all the time exactly, but they're not rubber bullets at all there. They're metal bullets, (00:21:10) you know, I think that that the caller raises an interesting question and I guess I'd like to make a distinction between places that human rights groups focus on in places that the media focuses on I think that that human rights groups are continuing to pay attention to the Palestinian situation there. There's an indigenous Human Rights group all Hawk which works on the West Bank and and produces a lot of documentation and there have been other human rights groups including Amnesty International and Physicians for human rights who've gone in and documented the situation what gets to the public is sometimes skewed because right now of course, we're all all eyes are on Eastern Europe, whereas as we've talked about throughout this program. There's a lot of continuing problems in all regions of the world, but what gets to the public Since always representative of what's being produced by the human rights (00:22:05) organizations back to the telephone for another listener question for our guests. Go ahead. It's your turn. (00:22:11) All right. I do have a question. I would like to just make a statement first and that is that there is a line of demarcation between Amnesty International and if you are on the state side the American civil liberties Union because Amnesty International recognizes a freedom of religion as one Topic in the and the Communist world that should be abided by letting the United States the essence and the essence and the moral values of our country are in terrible trouble because the sou has decided not to allow religion or anything close to that to be exercised when it comes to having a school prayer or It doesn't have to be a religious prayer for one domain of religion. Is that the question you would like to pour or choose me or to set aside a time for a religion to have a (00:23:14) okay David Weiss brought the distinction between the ACLU and Amnesty International. Well, I'm gonna see our national works on four main issues the imprisonment of prisoners of conscience the stopping of torture the stopping of the death penalty and the and the stopping of unfair trials were political prisoners now quite often amnesty works for people who have been imprisoned for religious reasons or who've been tortured for religious reasons. And so it does get involved. Although it does it's not a freedom of religion organization as such Barbara's organization has worked on freedom of religion. For example on Albania where religion is forbidden. It is a human right to to practice your religion. And so it there isn't relevance to the question. I'm not sure that we're able to speak for the ACLU. We need a new guest for that. Yeah, we're full up though. Let's go on to the next caller with the question and it's your turn. Thanks for waiting. Go ahead, please (00:24:15) thank you. Mr. Price distinction between what human rights groups focus on what the US media? This is on. It's actually a very good lead into my question. Isn't it? True that at least with regard to our relations with the Soviet Union that human human rights is often used as a code word code word for Jewish immigration and that in fact our economic relationship with the Soviet Union is tied to Jewish immigration in particular the jackson-vanik amendment and on this score. I'm just curious. Could you inform us whether either of you are Jewish also. Thank you. (00:24:54) Well, I don't think our ethnic background is is it relevant particularly to the discussion? Clearly the emigration of Soviet Jews is a is an interest to the American people especially to the Jewish Community here. It's not the sole human rights agenda between either the US and the USSR or the world community and the USSR. There have been a number of other issues in the Soviet Union such as psychiatric abuse of dissidents torture and imprisonment certainly before this era of glass. No Stan even during this era of glass knows there continued to be concerns about political prisoners of all types. So I think that in any country people here Buzz words or there might be one particular issue that comes to mind but there's usually an entire continuum Many of the issues that have to do with rights (00:25:55) religious intolerance. Generally I'm led to believe is an issue between the United States and the Soviet Union human rights groups obviously have been active in the work with the so-called Pentecostal list movement in the Soviet Union and the Catholic ukrainians and the and also the Aslam the Islamic folks in the south of the Soviet Union which have been much in the news and indeed when you're talking about immigration from the Soviet Union, you have to think about the Armenians and the ethnic Germans who who are whenever you hear the Jews are being released from the Soviet Union. You can be fairly sure that there are also Armenians and and Soviet Germans who are also able to park. Let's go back to the telephone to get another listener question. Thanks for waiting. It's your turn. (00:26:41) Hello. Yes. Go ahead with yours. I'd like to have the these people comment on the fact that it is always kind of been kind of puzzling to me that seems to be sort of a contradiction in the use of torture seems to me that governments on the one hand are trying to terrorize and oppressed population. And at the same time they are very reluctant to have Amnesty International or groups like that come in and they often subject to being televised or having radio programs. I mean, it seems to me there are two kind of conflicting motivations at work there. I wondered if they would comment on that. (00:27:32) I think that you've struck on I guess I'll Paradox that that we try to play to our advantage in the human rights community. And that's that even the worst human rights abuser doesn't like to be caught at what he or she is doing. No one wants to be called a torturer and therefore by going in and shedding light on what's happening in in countries where torture is going on. There is a great moral pressure that comes to bear on people as individual human beings and as government's so we try to take advantage of that. I think that brings up like to one of the groups that we haven't mentioned here today is the center for victims of torture, which is a local treatment center for victims of politically motivated persecution in other countries, and that it sprung from the human rights Community here and we've seen the victims that have come through for treatment. All different countries of the world and that's very powerful information to find out about a country that when someone is standing facing you and telling you their story of torture that and it and even governments aren't immune from Human embarrassment (00:28:47) before we began talking on the are here with our conversation David. You were bringing up a point about the connection between North Korea and Albania and what would you call it intergovernmental cooperation? Apparently. Well, actually it was it was North Korea and Romania Romania, sir. Oh, that's all right apparently ceausescu was in his early days was quite Progressive from a human rights perspective and from a governmental perspective and there's there's some evidence that his visit to to North Korea in 71 not see if I get the right. I think it was in 71. I'm not sure that was 71 or 77 changed significantly his perspective and when Came back from from North Korea. He decided that he wanted to make things in Romania a lot more like they are in North Korea and that resulted in a more aggressive much more repressive and a result of that personality is the cult of personality that the restriction on the on for example, radios and on typewriters and on all means of communication with the outside world one can literally see if you know a little bit about the situation in North Korea sort of an analog to what we're now learning about Romania sort of being built in Romania on the model a model of North Korea. It's it and I'm afraid that there is a certain amount of concern about the transfer of Technology of torture. We were talking about that vis-à-vis the United States amongst other countries, and there was certainly during the worst period of Argentina Chile Paraguay transfer of technology and and transfer of information amongst those countries and there's some evidence that that goes on in other places in the World, all right back to the telephone for another listener question. Thanks for waiting. It's your turn. (00:30:36) Hello and good day. May I ask what, you know about the maltreatment of the Irish by the English these days. Thank you. (00:30:46) Well, there are continued to be problems of ill-treatment in Northern Ireland. There are real serious concerns about the fairness of the proceedings have probably read most recently about the this trial actually that against Tyra folks in in England and we're finally after it was something in the order of 10 to 12 years the the British admitted that they had ill-treated the defendants and gotten confessions. And then there's the Birmingham six that's right now ugly. That's then we'll and what was that all about? Well, I understand there was actually a bombing and and and in Birmingham and certain individuals were accused and they were Ira people and ultimately someone else confessed to the crime, but it was years later and and and it developed that essentially the British police used forms of ill-treatment to get confessions from the from the individuals and and the British people with whom You have a good deal of confidence about the fairness of the British legal system in on many occasions when it when they when you mention the Irish you get a different you may get a different story and and there have been studies about the dip lock courts in Northern Ireland where no jury is permitted and and where there are serious fairness problems and amnesty has had on a number of occasions to send investigators to prisons where ill-treatment is occurring or where there have been deaths in custody as a result of ill treatment. So that those issues continue that speaker is David Weiss brought who is director of the University of Minnesota human rights Center and a law professor at the University's law school and also with us in the studio is Barbara fry the executive director of the Minnesota lawyers international human rights committee. Just two of the groups in Minnesota active in human rights movement worldwide. Why did Minnesota become a center do you think Barbara for this kind of activity with your group with Amnesty International activists like David and others, (00:32:46) I think. It grows out of the nature of minnesotans who are who are interested in Social concerns and many areas. I also think that we were just blessed with personalities like the man sitting at my ride who had is a tremendous resource our Mayor Don Fraser who was who's well-known internationally and who had a significant influence on US policy concerning human rights during his time in Congress. We found an extraordinary amount of interest and experience among people who live in Minnesota people who've traveled lived in the Peace Corps worked in the Peace Corps and speak different languages. And I think the trick is we've been able to organize them to work on specific concrete projects in a way that both helps them to understand the process and and has a real effect (00:33:42) how many other groups do this kind of work in Minnesota besides the to well, there are Thousand members of Amnesty International in Minnesota and there's an office and of amnesty in Minnesota, although no staff yet staffed by volunteers. There's the Minnesota lawyers international human rights committee with it's 800 members and a staff of how many Barbara 5 there's the center for victims of torture that Bob mentioned that it's got a staff of about half a dozen and and essentially is oriented towards the treatment of torture victims. There's the American Refugee committee that is started separately from this group. There's the human rights Center at the University of Minnesota, which takes the academic side of this this game and essentially brings in speakers and does research and sends interns and and I'll see (00:34:28) if I do National Women's right action watch through the Humphrey Institute. Our bun Fraser's organization, and there's a group that works on issues of religious intolerance that's called project tandem that has held several International conferences on the issue of tolerance for religion or belief. (00:34:46) Project tend. Mm-hmm. All right, we've got there. I was just going to say that one. When I arrived in the state about 14 years ago. There was nobody sort of working full-time and human rights except for I would say Don Fraser. And and now I mean if you start counting up the staff of the people who are involved in human rights, it's sort of a cottage industry Small industry and I think that we ought to mention Governor perpetuate this point. I mean, it's been one of his enthusiasms certainly the center for victims of torture, but other issues as well and I although he has many enthusiasms. This is one of them and I think it's been helpful back to the telephone for another listener question. Thank you for waiting. It's your turn. Go ahead, please. (00:35:25) Yeah. I was hoping that maybe your guests could help me understand the basis in law that the United States used to apprehend a leader of another country and bring them back to this country for trial. I guess. I haven't heard of this a lot in at least in recent years. I'm wondering how far back a person would have to go before this would be a common practice you're talking about. (00:35:46) Yeah, okay. Well, there's no extradition treaty between Panama and the United States as I understand. So essentially Noriega was kidnapped from Panama to bring them into the United States and you might say well what can we do about it? And the answer is not a whole lot because essentially under international law the rights of Panama were infringed but since the Panamanian government is sort of happy about get rid of Noriega. There's they won't complain and under rather established US law an individual who is brought into a jurisdiction to be tried like that cannot complain of how they got into the jurisdiction. So for example, that law was developed between say California and Nevada where California police came over into Nevada and picked up somebody and then try them but it's also true as International precedents and the infringement is an is a breach of international law, but it but unfortunately Noriega is going to have difficulty raising it. Back to the telephone for another listener question and it's yours. Go ahead, please. (00:36:48) Yes. Thank you dep my question pertains to definitions of Human Rights some groups emphasize the political dimensions of Human Rights. While others focus more on social and economic rights such as food housing Healthcare and education. I'm wondering if you could get your guests to comment on any implicit or explicit hierarchy of human rights that they employ and does the Virgin emphases on political versus social economic rights frustrate a broader dialogue among international human rights groups. (00:37:24) It's a good question scholar of human rights on the telephone there clearly is a distinction there actually two International covenants one that guides civil and political rights in the other that governs economic social and cultural rights, and I think that it's fair to say That as Americans were were so brought up in an atmosphere of believing in civil rights, as you know, free speech and the right to vote and freedom from arbitrary detention those kind of things that we automatically glom onto those kind of Rights but as an organization, the Minnesota lawyers committee tries to take a look at all sorts of Rights so that in our reports in our comprehensive reports on say North Korea, Albania Tunisia some of the broad reports that we've done we will cover all the rights including what the standard of living is. What is done with Social Security Leisure education. Those kinds of issues the I think that the implicit hierarchy in terms of action and activists in the human rights area comes from what we call an area of non-durable Rights or rights. That no matter what situation you're in should not be violated that countries have agreed that they will they will never violate those rights and that includes the right to be free from torture the right to be free from arbitrary execution the right to be free from slavery slavery genocide those kinds of visual discrimination. So if people since those are such urgent issues and they're not ones that are have been solved in a lot of places the world. I think a lot of Human Rights activists will focus on those issues not because they don't feel strongly about the economic social and cultural rights, but because those seem to be the most urgent (00:39:28) concerns, there's there's a little bit more to be said but Barb's basically said it all there is a distinction between the way civil and political rights are to be implemented under those treaties and the way you cannot make social and cultural rights to be implemented civil and political rights like the right to be free from torture must You've got to stop torture right away, but economic social and cultural rights. For example, the right to be free from Hunger has to be implemented only to the degree to which you have resources and only and only progressively so that you've got to try to improve your situation the people and only to the extent that you have available money and food and that's a very different distinction which does create if you wish a hierarchy I think that the rights are very much interdependent but nevertheless in terms of how they're implemented. There is a distinction. All right back to the telephone for another listener question. It's your turn. Go ahead, (00:40:19) please. Yes. I had read in September and a Hong Kong paper a quote of that Amnesty International had determined that approximately 10,000 students are demonstrators had been executed since the June 4th Tiananmen Square massacre, and I was wondering how you were able to develop the numbers and also What sort of follow up you've had on that and what you think the toll is to date? (00:40:55) I've even heard those numbers from on executions from Amnesty International. I have heard I mean through Asia watch and Amnesty International documentation that they believe that there are upwards of 10,000 prisoners. I don't think anyone has come forward with a definitive number of executions though. You hear estimates ranging in the 2000 area there continues to be a significant amount of documentation or work being done on the the situation in China locally. We are both continue to collect the documentation mainly from the newspapers and other human rights organizations concerning political prisoners, but also are concerned about the students who are in the United States who do not want to be forced to go back to China and have follow very closely legislation in Congress, which Would prevent them from having to return to their country for a two-year stint before staying on in the United States as a resident president vetoed by President Bush vetoed that particular legislation though. Some regulations have been enacted that we are we're using to represent Chinese students in that are living in Minnesota and in elsewhere in the United States and protect them from having to go back to China. (00:42:22) What's the extent of use of insiders that your organization's can make use of not not foreign correspondents not Embassy officials, but people who might know of the work that your groups are doing and who inside a government or just inside a political movement within a country decide to let you know what's going on. How common is that within amnesty? It's fairly common. I worked at the international Secretariat of amnesty for a year and I was always amazed by the telephone calls. I would get there was one fellow whose office was next to me who was Dutch and whenever he went That whenever he started speaking Dutch. I knew that the government was there was probably a call from some doctor Diplomat who was who was probably telling about things that he had seen but that was just one example of many. It's amazing how many whistleblowers there are within the Diplomatic Corps and within within governments themselves where for various political reasons, they for example inside the the government of Sudan say the that of that that sub attorney general doesn't like what he sees or has political aspirations and wants to blow the whistle on what's going on in his own country. And that kind of thing happens fairly often. It should be said that an amnesty has a very strict rule which is that you can't work on human rights in your own country. So that although they can provide information that information then has to be winnowed through the fact finding mechanisms of amnesty and checked thoroughly before amnesty would then go to go to Work on that kind of information back to the telephone with another listener question. It's your turn. Go ahead, please (00:44:01) hello as a staunch supporter of the idea of the United Nations of having some sort of international Forum where people can work things out. I was interested when you you seemed hopeful about getting Albania up on a UN Agenda and I wondered what good does it really do in today's world to bring things before the UN when so many countries including and perhaps, especially our own ignore the UN when there's any kind of criticism involved. I'm thinking of something like the United Nations the the Middle East where the UN with a lot of our involvement created two countries out of the nation or the state of Rhode. I should say the territory of Palestine back in 47. And since then there have been multiple resolutions from the United Nations criticizing Israel, the famous UN resolution 242 that told his really get out of the land. He can 67 many votes coming up. Now where the u.s. Stands with Israel alone against all the rest of the world and yet we don't seem to respond and we have a situation that goes on there with Collective (00:45:08) punishment. Okay. I think we've got the gist of the question Barbara (00:45:12) the think that Americans tend to have a cynical perspective about the UN that isn't shared universally fortunately we work most closely with to Human Rights bodies within the UN one is called the UN Commission on human rights which meets for six weeks in the spring in Geneva. The other is the sub-commission on prevention of discrimination and protection of minorities which meets during the summer in Geneva and the commission on human rights and particular does take pass resolutions and some some actions that it takes are more effective than others in recent years. It's taken a more active posture in investigating and documenting human. It's in certain abysmal countries such as Romania, which got on the agenda this year some of the Central American countries Guatemala El Salvador. I ran and I think that you'll find that governments, especially some of the smaller countries like in Albania or or other governments do care what the UN says especially care if people they perceive as their allies are people that are countries that they have to please are joining in on the resolutions. So I think that the UN does play a very important role that we need to continue to use it so that it remains effective and and that I would say even the United States doesn't take fun, you know, take kindly to un action against it. I mean the the recent votes in the And on Panama were things that the u.s. Had at least to explain away (00:47:00) was going to add that. There's a lot of work that the UN does in the human rights field. It's less visible. They have established mechanisms. For example on disappearances are arbitrary killings on torture and on religious intolerance, which have resulted in Saving many people's lives and that you don't hear so much about it because a lot of the work is done diplomatically, the mechanisms are established publicly, but and there's a report rendered every year which in some ways is a is a good report card for those issues all over the world. But the when you read those reports, you see that people have actually been helped back to the telephone for another listener question for our guests Barbara fry from the Minnesota lawyers international human rights committee and David Weiss brought who is a member of Amnesty International and the U of M law professor. It's your turn. Go ahead, please (00:47:45) good afternoon. I'd like to do a short PSA for Amnesty International let you know that they're the local office phone number is three seven nine three eight nine. And we would certainly welcome anyone who would like to find out about joining amnesty becoming involved. Also, I'd like to expand on the United Nations point that was made before that. There are several international human rights treaties that the US has not ratified and I wondered if Professor Weiss bro could give us some background on this problem (00:48:17) several treaties that haven't been ratified. The caller says David well indeed the United States has a rather poor record in ratification of Human Rights instruments. The the treaty that is of most concern right now is the treaty Against torture and one would think that the United States would want to ratify such a treaty the indeed President Reagan did sign that treaty and and now the issue is before the United States Senate and what we're trying to do is to build up a political support for ratification of that treaty, but there are a number of others the Covenant on civil Political rights the Covenant on economic social and cultural rights, which are the fundamental instruments that really provided if you wish an international legal basis for everything we've been talking about have not been ratified by the United States, even though some 90 countries have ratified those two major instruments and and about 45 of ratified the torture treaty. The treaty Against torture is relatively recent. It's only been in existence for since 1984. So it hasn't had as many ratifications yet, but it's really quite important that that US citizens for our own rights essentially what the treaty Against torture says is the US government shouldn't torture US citizens. It shouldn't be too difficult for the u.s. Government to ratify such a treaty (00:49:41) Dan. Can I get my (00:49:42) PS? Yeah get your PSA and no (00:49:44) Barbara. So really the PSA wanted to do is there's a program that's being sponsored by the Minnesota lawyers committee tomorrow night on Cambodia the impending. Rights crisis in Cambodia and there will be two experts coming in from different parts of the country to speak on both the geopolitical situation in Cambodia and protection of the Cambodian refugees in Thailand. Is this happening it will be at Hamline University theater. He had 7 p.m. On Tuesday, January 9th Hamline University open to the public (00:50:20) st. Paul. Of course. Well, you've raised the issue of Cambodia and that brings us to the matter of some of these countries, especially some countries in Southeast Asia. And what is the emerging problem in Cambodia? (00:50:34) Well, as you may know the Vietnamese pulled out Vietnamese government pulled out its troops in September of 1989. And since then the the leadership has been a bit influx the current government under prime minister Hun Sen is seen as a quote-unquote puppet government of the Vietnamese, even though it seems to be taking steps to try to broaden its support among the different factions in Cambodia. There are there's actually a civil war that's that's growing between the opposition which is composed of the forces of the Khmer Rouge and the forces of Prince sihanouk and another non-communist group who are fighting against the Vietnamese backed Cambodian (00:51:22) government. And in the meantime, there are presumably thousands maybe tens of thousands of cambodians who are in various states of Transportation there in camps some in Thailand and some are just wandering about presumably There's real concern. I think this is one of the concerns of the American Refugee committee that those individuals will be forced back from the camps into into Cambodia where they'll be subjected to killing in the in the Civil War. That's impending what's going on in Burma. Do we have the case of another country there? That is Walled itself off from the rest of the world. There was an opening a couple of years ago in a real Democratic movement and unfortunately in a sort of a if you wish a similar show that to what happened in gentleman Square there was a there was a massive killings of demonstrators who were fighting for democracy and it did wall itself off for a while quite a long period of time but then it opened up and now it's shut down again and they say they're going to have elections this spring but they've arrested all the opponents. So it's going to be rather difficult to have elections and that's a situation where the US government has taken a positive stand and where the US government has been pushing hard to stop Aid to Burma until there's an improvement in the situation and in telling the Japanese not to give Aid to Burma about five minutes remain in our discussion and we have some time for a few more telephone questions. Thanks for waiting. It's your turn. Go ahead, please. (00:52:47) Okay. I just like to cite something that's very important to not only to your guests with the rest of the world in the Twin Cities. Earlier 1948 1949 after some very thoughtful moves the mayors of st. Paul and Minneapolis Hubert Horatio Humphrey. and Edward Kennedy Delaney past the very first of all the hamlets and cities and states in this country. The very first human rights act and formed the very first human rights commission's in the Twin Cities. (00:53:30) All right, David Weiss brought Barbara fine. Well indeed, there are human rights commission's in many localities in the United States and in Minnesota and I would like them to get more out involved in interested in some of these international issues indeed. I think that that there's going to be a presentation before the Human Rights Commission of st. Cloud in a couple days by representative of amnesty to try to build that connection because I think there is a natural Connection. In fact Steve Cooper who is the human rights commissioner of the state is a is a new member of the board of the center for victims of torture. And and I think there is a connection being built between the community that's concerned about these human rights commission's in particularly racial issues in the US and the international issues. We were talking about I gather that the major contribution Individual members can make and have made over the years is letter writing is that still one of the major forms of work that at least Amnesty International does indeed both organizations. In fact, all the ones we were talking about that are activists in orientation write letters the individuals write letters to free prisoners of conscience to stop torture to stop executions, but for all of the letter writing which apparently has worked in a number of instances have there been cases sad as they may be where the work of your organization says simply backfired on you where somebody has just had an opposing and negative reaction to what you were trying to do their amnesties done a research on their results of their urgent actions. And in about 5 percent of the cases. There is the execution occurs the torture continues the imprisonment continues the person dies of ill health in prison, but that's a very small percentage by comparison to over half where positive action is is taken people are released the torture stops, etcetera. So I Say all in all that both for both the Minnesota lawyers committee and amnesty that letter writing technique is one of the major approaches that people use and that individuals can do in their homes or in small groups. (00:55:27) I just have to tell an anecdote about letter writing and we publish Amnesty International and the lawyers committee alternate monthly columns in the st. Paul Pioneer Press called Freedom letters where we request letters on behalf of political prisoners. We were doing an update of all of our freedom letters for the year and it got to report out that one of the prisoners that we had written on behalf of vocs Love Havel is now the president of Czechoslovakia. So that's pretty good success. I think we can take credit for (00:55:54) it like to point to that one. I'm sure when it comes annual reports on that looks good back to the telephone for another listener question. Thanks for waiting at your turn. (00:56:03) Yes. My question is concerning a civilian casualties. It's in Panama now, we're told a certain figure by American Military, but my question is Ramsey Clark was just on CNN press conference. And he said that it's much higher in the thousands and he personally saw math grave down there. That was 40 yards long and six yards (00:56:29) wide. All right any reaction from the to of you've widely varying accounts over the past couple of weeks on the civilian casualty rate in Panama to my knowledge amnesty hasn't come up with that issue yet. I Ramsey Clark so a very credible fellow and he works hard and and so I at least raise a question about those issues, but I don't think that the facts are in you time for one more caller before we wrap this up and it's yours. Go ahead, (00:56:54) please. Okay. Well, I was wondering what part does modern technology specifically computer technology play in Not Human Rights abuses and should certain countries have to pass human rights test before they're allowed to purchase the latest equipment. (00:57:10) Well, one of the big issues of course is in countries like South Africa where the computers have been used to keep track of folks record keeping records keeping issues. And that there there is a real problem whether one should restrict trade on that grounds is a very difficult issue. I think that in general that that one would worry more about thumb the transfer of such technology is thumbscrews and electronic prods and that those kinds of Technologies one wants to stop first before one goes after the computer. Well both of you thank you very much for coming in. One of the caller's got in the public service announcement for Amnesty International with that phone number which were happy to repeat three seven. Nine three eight nine nine. I guess that must be a Minneapolis telephone. That is it's the office of the satellite office of Amnesty International and it's it's a 1313 Fifth Street Southeast sweet 134 in So 5 5 4 1 4 and then Barbara's operation Minnesota lawyers international human rights committee, which has as its main telephone number Barbara here. I have a lot of them. Which one would you prefer (00:58:20) three-for-one (00:58:21) 33023413302 and that's located in Minneapolis. Thank you both of you for coming in to thank you Dan. Thank you. Well we have in front of us the weather situation for our region which includes the prospect as you have no doubt heard throughout the day of Fairly warm weather and we'll be giving you a look at that in just a moment. Good afternoon. This is Gary eichten the mild weather we've had the last few days couldn't have come at a better time for many many people in Minnesota people who've seen their home heating bills increased dramatically this winter today on NPR Journal will take a closer. Look at that cost increase also will look at the more visible role that homosexuals are playing in organized religion. We invite you to join us for those stories and the rest of the News 5 o'clock in our music stations, 5:30 on our news stations. And tomorrow during the noon hour as part of. Midday. You'll hear Management Consultant Tom Peters as he speaks to an audience in Dallas, Texas about the world of work in a talk entitled thriving on chaos Tom Peters tomorrow during the noon hour as part of midday. That's the Monday edition of midday technical directors. Rick had since key and Patty Ray Rudolph. I'm Dan Olson and this is knnow 1330 Minneapolis st. Paul 41° a clear sky in the Twin Cities.